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Sidious
This is sidious spirit post of his latest death, so he retains all knowledge, experience, and skills he gained....such as his experience of being seperated from the force by the twins, etc.

Sidious is also given his original organic body in its early twenties for prime physicality.

He is given one month to practice and refine his saber skills, force powers, accustom to his body.

Caedus
This is caedus spirit post of his death, so he has all knowledge, experiences, powers, skills, he gained through life and death, such as his experience of fighting luke and illusions, etc.

Caedus is also given his original organic body in its physical prime, all limbs inclded.

He is given one month to practice and refine his saber skills, force powers, and accustom to his body.

Yoda
This is yoda's spirit to the moment of death, so he has all knowledge , skills, eertise he learned up to death.

Yoda is given his original organic body in its prime physicality

He is given one month to practice and refine his skills and to accustom to his body.

Windu
This is windus spirit to the moment before he died of falling from a skyscraper, right before impact. So he retains all knowledge, experiences, he gained up to death.

He is also given his original organic body in prime physical condition

He is given one month to practice and refine his skills, to accustom to his body.

The Match

Scenario 1: could team 1 assassinate team 2 and vice versa? They are allowed to use all their personal weapons and all their force powers. However the team partners are neever seperate from one another. Which team is successful or if both more successful?

Scenario 2: both teams meet in a large open field, no civilians, which team wins vs the other team all out? All weapons, tactics, powers allowed.

Scenario 3: an all out brawl with pure hand to hand, and sabers no force powers, team vs team.

Scenario 4: team vs team brawl in same open field except no melee or sabers only force powers, ie tk lightening etc.

Note: all force powers that a team has are allowed, ie battle meditation, battle rage, mind meld, invisibility ,etc all fancy exotc powers.

Team 2 wins.

Yoda beats Sidious since Yoda is already close to Sidious and would benefit more from the OP.

Mace beats Caedus because he already would without the OP, and with the OP Mace gets bigger boost since he's older.

Team 2.

BW, I don't know why you bother with the whole theoretical prime stuff, because we slip into total conjecture then. You should just pick an era for a specific character (RotS Yoda, RotJ Sidious, etc.) and stick with it.



Assassination? The Sith will naturally have an advantage here, due to the sheer nature of assassination. It requires stealth, cunning, and superior grasp of tactics. Palpatine and Caedus are both sneaky sonsofbitches, so they definitely win here.



This would be close, but I'm inclined to side with the Sith. Windu's decisive combination of Vaapad/shatterpoint wouldn't be nearly as effective; Caedus possesses the shatterpoint charism as well and is just as capable of using it in the heat of combat. Coupled with the fact that Caedus has a threshold for pain that is truly extraordinary and his considerable skills with the Force and the lightsaber, he could very easily keep Windu busy, though I'd have to think about it further before I could say who would win.

Palpatine and Yoda would not be as close as Caedus vs. Windu; while Palpatine might not have a decisive edge with a lightsaber, he most certainly does with the Force.

It's close to call, since the Sith don't seem to possess a notable advantage with a lightsaber, they do seem to have superiority with the Force, which is largely the deciding factor according to Path of Destruction.



The Sith, again, solely because even though Yoda could enhance his physical strength and speed with the Force, his small stature and reach would work to his detriment. Meanwhile, we can infer from Maul's training at Sidious's hands that Palpatine is a prolific martial artist as well, and Caedus is simply too durable in the area of melee combat. Windu is certainly the best one here in sheer hand-to-hand, but he wouldn't be able to subdue Caedus outright due to Caedus's threshold for pain; Yoda wouldn't be much of a challenge for Sidious in this area. Yoda would go down first, and Sidious and Caedus team up to take out Windu.

But if Windu can subdue Caedus, then he can take out Sidious and win this himself. But one way or another, Yoda's going down.



The Sith in a decisive stomp. Windu isn't nearly as learned in the Force as Yoda, Caedus, or Sidious. He's a liability to Yoda, and while Yoda may be powerful enough to contend with Caedus, he's not in Palpatine's league, and against the two of them? He'd be annihilated.

Good thread though.

Board Walker
The Match

Scenario 1: could team 1 assassinate team 2 and vice versa? They are allowed to use all their personal weapons and all their force powers. However the team partners are neever seperate from one another. Which team is successful or if both more successful?The Sith. It's what they do.

I'll ignore circumstances and point out that both members of Team Two have already tried to assassinate Palpatine and failed.

Failed.

Team One. Palpatine is ultimately too powerful for either Yoda or Windu to defeat, and Caedus can almost certainly hold his own against either of them given his power, stamina, and the shatterpoint technique.

This is terrific match up. Kudos.

Mace has proven to be an immensely powerful physical combatant, and taking shatterpoint and Vaapad into account there's a very good chance he could defeat either of the Sith.

Yoda's small size, agility, and strength - I believe it was Lightsnake who provided a scan of Yoda carrying a gun the size of a small house on his back - would make him threatening in his own right. He'd certainly make the worst target possible.

However, Palpatine is responsible for the training of Maul and Mara Jade, some of the deadliest melee fighters in the mythos; his skill here is likely unmatched, and combined with youth and enormous reserves of power he becomes an immediate threat.

Solo's greatest strength is his endurance; in that field he's put himself in a class with perhaps only Vader as a possible rival. His uncle, who crushed a blaster carbine with his organic hand, compared landing a hit on Solo to punching a brick wall. Whether that'll let him outlast someone who tears through durasteel armor is debatable, but there's no question that he'll occupy someone's attention for a very long time.

Team One. Frankly, there isn't anything the Jedi can do here that the Sith can't do significantly better.

Edit: Dammit Gideon.

I didn't even see the part where they get lightsabers in the hand-to-hand one.

I figured it was a typo.

It indeed was a typo, meant no sabers. And yes ill stick to eras rather than theoritical prime forms so ofen

I'm gonna side with team two, actually. I think that there is enough wiggle room for Caedus to be taken out of play, and then allow the two Jedi to tag-team Sidious.

I'll have a reasonably competent argument by tomorrow-ish.

I am thinking team 1 in all battle Scenarios. This is basically DE Sidious and LOTF Caedus against Unknown Yoda and ROTS Mace, no?

Mace is the top hand-to-hand combatant of the group.

Originally posted by Board Walker

Scenario 1: could team 1 assassinate team 2 and vice versa? They are allowed to use all their personal weapons and all their force powers. However the team partners are neever seperate from one another.

Scenario 2: both teams meet in a large open field, no civilians, which team wins vs the other team all out? All weapons, tactics, powers allowed.

Scenario 3: an all out brawl with pure hand to hand, and sabers no force powers, team vs team.

Scenario 4: team vs team brawl in same open field except no melee or sabers only force powers, ie tk lightening etc.

Note: all force powers that a team has are allowed, ie battle meditation, battle rage, mind meld, invisibility ,etc all fancy exotc powers.

Scenario 1: I'd go with Yoda and Mace, if they are both in prime physicality. They could absorb the Siths' lightning and reflect it back at them. I don't see how they cannot separate, however.

Scenario 2: Yoda and Mace again. You have to remember, Mace was 53 when he died, so if he's at his prime, he's a nearly unstoppable killing machine. Yoda is an all out beast who could take on either Caedus or Sidious while Mace handles the other.

Scenario 3: If it's no force powers, Yoda is nearly useless. He gets killed. Mace's Vaapad cannot withstand Caedus and Sidious fighting together.

Scenario 4: This one is hard to read. I want to say Yoda and Mace, but maybe Sidious and Caedus have too much hate-fueled energy to overcome. I'd give it to the Sith boys.

Team 2 wins in all except for maybe 3 and maybe 4.

Remember that Yoda would get a bigger boost from the OP than the others since Yoda's pretty darn old, and Yoda's already > ROTS Sidious and Mace > Caedus (or at least around equal). Mace would get a bigger boost than Caedus from the OP since ROTS Mace is older than Caedus.

I don't actually know how to make a case for Yoda. Do we have any legitimate fights for him except vs Sidious in EpIII and Dooku in DR?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't actually know how to make a case for Yoda. Do we have any legitimate fights for him except vs Sidious in EpIII and Dooku in DR?

The fight vs Sidious alone is enough. Yoda apparently disarms Sidious off screen. And Yoda would get a big boost from the OP, a bigger boost than that of any of the other contestants here.

If Caedus can keep his shit together then I don't see why him and Sidious couldn't punk his ass with the force here. Hell, Yoda barely manage to stand up against the Dark Lord and palps may have thrown the fight. And even if he didn't he still had plenty of power left and was damn near close to pushing Windu back with his Lightning.

Caedus isn't to be underestimated at any cost. Character Derailment and lack of sanity aside, he was a formidable SOB. If they can manage to work together, they could very well pull this off.

On the other hand, who knows how awesome the Yoda/Mace team would be. Now, their physical prime might help Yoda a bit, but given the sheer power he had in the force it's liely we saw what he wa slike. However, this would mean he has more pwer and focus to spare on offensive or defensive powers. As far as Mace goes, 53 isn't that old for someone who has led an active and healthy lifestyle, much less a Jedi. I know plenty a 50 something's who could hold there own in a fight with young adults if need be. So physical prime might not mean much for MAce.

Except for a Afro....

It's a toss-up. Closer than most would think.

I mean... : )

Oh...

H2H is happening?

Well then Mace brings that round home.

...

Yoda beats Sidious

Mace beats Caedus

or

Yoda beats Caedus

Mace holds off Sidious

I only see the Jedi winning 3 as Mace is a beast at hand to hand combat. Otherwise the Sith are just allaround more powerful.

BTW I'm not worring about the hypothetical in their Prime BS.

Originally posted by ares834
I only see the Jedi winning 3 as Mace is a beast at hand to hand combat. Otherwise the Sith are just allaround more powerful.

BTW I'm not worring about the hypothetical in their Prime BS.

If you don't factor the OP specifications then:

Mace beats Sidious
Yoda beast Caedus

Jedi team wins

Originally posted by Gideon



This would be close, but I'm inclined to side with the Sith. Windu's decisive combination of Vaapad/shatterpoint wouldn't be nearly as effective; Caedus possesses the shatterpoint charism as well and is just as capable of using it in the heat of combat. Coupled with the fact that Caedus has a threshold for pain that is truly extraordinary and his considerable skills with the Force and the lightsaber, he could very easily keep Windu busy, though I'd have to think about it further before I could say who would win.

Palpatine and Yoda would not be as close as Caedus vs. Windu; while Palpatine might not have a decisive edge with a lightsaber, he most certainly does with the Force.

It's close to call, since the Sith don't seem to possess a notable advantage with a lightsaber, they do seem to have superiority with the Force, which is largely the deciding factor according to Path of Destruction.



The Sith, again, solely because even though Yoda could enhance his physical strength and speed with the Force, his small stature and reach would work to his detriment. Meanwhile, we can infer from Maul's training at Sidious's hands that Palpatine is a prolific martial artist as well, and Caedus is simply too durable in the area of melee combat. Windu is certainly the best one here in sheer hand-to-hand, but he wouldn't be able to subdue Caedus outright due to Caedus's threshold for pain; Yoda wouldn't be much of a challenge for Sidious in this area. Yoda would go down first, and Sidious and Caedus team up to take out Windu.

But if Windu can subdue Caedus, then he can take out Sidious and win this himself. But one way or another, Yoda's going down.


This makes no sense at all.... You're trying to say Yoda would be the weak link because of his dimensions and lack of size? Yet this same "small stature Jedi" was the greatest foe the Darkside had ever known. This same "midget Jedi with no reach" made Sid run away constantly not wanting to engage Yodi saber vs saber to the death. This same sid not only ran while trying to engage in a "fight" he clearly wanted no part of, but then totally fled the scene. You would think how you describe Yoda and his size Sid would've stuck around to kill the small jedi with ease. The fact is... both Yoda and Mace are Sid and Caedus superior in sabers. They win that fight hands down. Even with force powers... Mace proved to be Sid's superior in a one v one battle and Yoda would do the same to Caedus.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This makes no sense at all.... You're trying to say Yoda would the weak link because of his dimensions and lack of size? Yet this same "small stature Jedi" was the greatest foe the Darkside had ever known. This same "midget Jedi with no reach" made Sid run away constantly not wanting to engage Yodi saber vs saber to the death. This same sid not only ran while trying to engage in a "fight" he clearly wanted no part of, but then totally fled the scene. You would think how you describe Yoda and his size Sid would've stuck around to kill the small jedi with ease. The fact is... both Yoda and Mace are Sid and Caedus superior in sabers. They win that fight hands down. Even with force powers... Mace proved to be Sid's superior in a one v one battle and Yoda would do the same to Caedus.
No that was a mistake by the OP. The 3rd scenerio is only fist. No sabers or force powers. Still I'd give this one to the Jedi since Mace is a beast at hand to hand combat.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If you don't factor the OP specifications then:

Mace beats Sidious
Yoda beast Caedus

Jedi team wins
K... I was using DE Sidious because he is in his prime and we know what it is. We don't know Yoda's or Mace's however so I didn't factor that in as that would be pure guess work. However there is no way in hell Mace is beating DE Sidious. And while Yoda could beat Caedus I see that fight as being very close with Yoda getting mayby 6/10 wins.

Originally posted by ares834
K... I was using DE Sidious because he is in his prime and we know what it is. We don't know Yoda's or Mace's however so I didn't factor that in as that would be pure guess work. However there is no way in hell Mace is beating DE Sidious. And while Yoda could beat Caedus I see that fight as being very close with Yoda getting mayby 6/10 wins.


Well if we follow the OP then Yoda would beat DE Sidious since Yoda would benefit a HUGE amount from the OP. Mace would beat Caedus as well.

Without taking the OP into account, if this is DE Sidious then team 1 might win due to Sidious's Force lightning.

KT
This makes no sense at all.... You're trying to say Yoda would be the weak link because of his dimensions and lack of size? Yet this same "small stature Jedi" was the greatest foe the Darkside had ever known. This same "midget Jedi with no reach" made Sid run away constantly not wanting to engage Yodi saber vs saber to the death. This same sid not only ran while trying to engage in a "fight" he clearly wanted no part of, but then totally fled the scene. You would think how you describe Yoda and his size Sid would've stuck around to kill the small jedi with ease.

WTFno

The thread-owner said that the third fight was purely hand-to-hand. If you know anything about martial arts, reach is very much important.



Prove it?



Prove it?



Prove it?

Force powers? LOL. This is a massive annihilation on behalf of the Sith. Palpatine, by Dark Empire demonstrates powers well beyond Yoda or Mace. All Caedus needs to do is hold one of them off .

Mace Windu would likely beat Sidious in a hand to hand fight; Mace is younger and stronger, has shatterpoint and I believe he has a knowledge of some sort of martial arts.

I'm not sure how well Yoda would fare in a hand to hand fight vs Caedus or Sidious though. Yoda's pretty small, but that might work to his advantage.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Mace Windu would likely beat Sidious in a hand to hand fight; Mace is younger and stronger, has shatterpoint and I believe he has a knowledge of some sort of martial arts.

I'm not sure how well Yoda would fare in a hand to hand fight vs Caedus or Sidious though. Yoda's pretty small, but that might work to his advantage.

Or they might punt him into the nearest wall.

H2H goes to the Jedi most likely due to Mace singlehandedly wooping ass. He might use Yoda as an impromptu club but other than than, Yoda is a distraction and annoyance.

The Sith win the Force contest though, as Gideon just pointed out. Yoda might be able to hold of Palpatine for a samll few seconds, but Mace hasn't shown that much ability so it would be a contest of who can destroy their opponent first.

Unless Yoda attakcs Caeus and Windu Palpas, in which case Palpatine destroys Mace and Yoda right afterwards.

Originally posted by Gideon
WTFno

The thread-owner said that the third fight was purely hand-to-hand. If you know anything about martial arts, reach is very much important.



Prove it?



Prove it?



Prove it?

Force powers? LOL. This is a massive annihilation on behalf of the Sith. Palpatine, by Dark Empire demonstrates powers well beyond Yoda or Mace. All Caedus needs to do is hold one of them off .

First.... The thread starter said it was h2h and sabers but it turns out that was a mistake and you were going by what he wanted to say. Thus I can see how Yoda in a purely h2h fight would be at a disadvantage. However, I still believe Mace would be enough to carry the day with Yoda being a distraction.

Second... I need to prove Mace and Yoda are their superior when this has already been shown to be true on panel? Mace... disarmed the emperor in a sabers duel and won that fight already. So... why would I need to prove something that has already been proven. While Yoda didn't beat the Emperor it's clear that Yoda was on the attack and the aggressor and Sid wanted no part of that battle. He ran and ran and finally fled the scene completely. It's logical to assume that if he felt like he had the tools to take out the greatest foe the DS had ever known.. he would have. He didn't. To me that speaks to Yoda being at the very least a superior swordsman. Not superior in force powers per se but with sabers I believe Yoda had/has the advantage. DE Sid hadn't become anymore accomplished with the saber then when he lost to Mace and fled from Yoda. I put Caedus below all three. You don't agree and feel like Sid and Caedus are above Yoda and Mace in a sabers duel? Based on what?

Lastly, you are correct and I didn't argue that the Jedi would win the force powers battle. I agree with you and feel the DSiders would win.

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Or they might punt him into the nearest wall.

H2H goes to the Jedi most likely due to Mace singlehandedly wooping ass. He might use Yoda as an impromptu club but other than than, Yoda is a distraction and annoyance.

The Sith win the Force contest though, as Gideon just pointed out. Yoda might be able to hold of Palpatine for a samll few seconds, but Mace hasn't shown that much ability so it would be a contest of who can destroy their opponent first.

Unless Yoda attakcs Caeus and Windu Palpas, in which case Palpatine destroys Mace and Yoda right afterwards.

Right. Jedi win in H2H.

Force wise this depends on which Sidious this is.

All out Jedi win. Possibly a stomp with the OP specifications.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
All out Jedi win. Possibly a stomp with the OP specifications.

Nah, I foresee no stomping in this fight.
And how can we tell the degree in which Yoda and Mace would benefit from OP?

Originally posted by Board Walker


Scenario 1: could team 1 assassinate team 2 and vice versa? They are allowed to use all their personal weapons and all their force powers. However the team partners are neever seperate from one another. Which team is successful or if both more successful?

Scenario 2: both teams meet in a large open field, no civilians, which team wins vs the other team all out? All weapons, tactics, powers allowed.

Scenario 3: an all out brawl with pure hand to hand, and sabers no force powers, team vs team.

Scenario 4: team vs team brawl in same open field except no melee or sabers only force powers, ie tk lightening etc.



I have a hard time speculating about "prime" for Yoda or "prime" for Windu, so I'll just go with their Rots incarnations.
So it's DE Sidious and LOTF Caedus vs ROTS Yoda and ROTS Mace.
In this case the Jedi win H2H handily.
All other scenarios I give to the Sith though, solely because it's DE Sidious and IMO he's a tier above all other combatants here.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Nah, I foresee no stomping in this fight.
And how can we tell the degree in which Yoda and Mace would benefit from OP?



Yoda is older than anyone other contestant in this thread, so he'd benefit the most from the OP.

Mace is older than Caedus, so he'd benefit more than Caedus from the OP.

Jedi win handily if this is ROTS Sidious restored to his physical prime. If this is DE Sidious who is already in his physical prime, Jedi still win but not easily.



Using their DE/LOTF/ROTS incarnations, the sith win. Using the OP specifications, the Jedi win.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Yoda is older than anyone other contestant in this thread, so he'd benefit the most from the OP.

This may be true, but there is no way to tell by how much. He could be just slightly better than his Rots self, or he can be on level of DE Sidious. It's pure speculation.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If this is DE Sidious who is already in his physical prime, Jedi still win but not easily.

Nah, it all hinges on your assumption that Yoda and Mace would be much better because of OP. And there is no way to prove that.

I agree though, if it was Rots, or even Rotj Sidious, I see Jedi winning this.

The only real point I had in "prime" was just so that they have all limbs, don't get tired due to age, etc simple stuff. It was never meant to be used as "yoda wins due to age gg". Bc honestly no one knows how yodas species ages, his prime could be 1% better then his rots self. And windu was arguably his physical prime. 56 yeas old with constant conditioning? His prime was likely only slightly different

All-out?

Sith win.

My reasoning for this is the lightning. Yoda just barely held back Sid's lightning the first time and was shot like 10 feet back when the little competition between them ended. Sid's is much stronger now so if Caedus can hold off Mace long enough, they win.