COIE Anti-Monitor vs JLA/Avengers Krona

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cdtm
At their peaks.

Who wins?

shokosugi
AM

Omega Vision
AM.

I don't buy that GM was tapping into the full power of the artifacts when he took Krona on.

TheTyrant
Krona for the horrible horrible ragestomp.

Black bolt z
What are Kronas feats?

TheTyrant
Originally posted by Black bolt z
What are Kronas feats?

He defeated Galactus in two panels. Stomped Grandmaster with the Ultimate Nullifier, Infinity Gauntlet, Spear of Destiny, Green Lantern battery, and a bunch of other powerful artifacts.

cdtm
Captured Eternity and Kismet too.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by Omega Vision
AM.

I don't buy that GM was tapping into the full power of the artifacts when he took Krona on.

Same. Several items in his possession were atleast universal destroyers. The UN, Evil Eye, and Infinity Gauntlet. The IG and book of Destiny grants omniscience and time travel. GM was useless at using those items to their full potential.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by TheTyrant
He defeated Galactus in two panels. Stomped Grandmaster with the Ultimate Nullifier, Infinity Gauntlet, Spear of Destiny, Green Lantern battery, and a bunch of other powerful artifacts. What comics where these?I must read!

cdtm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Same. Several items in his possession were atleast universal destroyers. The UN, Evil Eye, and Infinity Gauntlet. The IG and book of Destiny grants omniscience and time travel. GM was useless at using those items to their full potential.

That's the Spear of Destiny, not the Book of Destiny. The book was the Book of Eternity, which is a pretty hardcore item. Contains the story of existence.

TheTyrant
Originally posted by Black bolt z
What comics where these?I must read!

JLA/Avengers. A cross-over between DC and Marvel.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by TheTyrant
JLA/Avengers. A cross-over between DC and Marvel. Yeah but is there a comic name/number?

TheTyrant
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Yeah but is there a comic name/number?

That's the name. JLA/Avengers. Search it up on the interwebs.

cdtm
It's a 4 issue series, but there's probably a trade by now..

I don't care what anyone says, what Thor did to Superman in issue 1 was way more memorable and awesome than their little fight...

quanchi112
Krona wins.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by TheTyrant
He defeated Galactus in two panels. Stomped Grandmaster with the Ultimate Nullifier, Infinity Gauntlet, Spear of Destiny, Green Lantern battery, and a bunch of other powerful artifacts.

Grandmaster had ALL of those items and he STILL lost? Please explain. I forgot the story.

the Darkone
AM will rape Krona, this is not even close.

galactusischere
IMO JLA/Avengers Krona was even more powerful than the Living Tribunal. He stomps here for sure.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by galactusischere
IMO JLA/Avengers Krona was even more powerful than the Living Tribunal. He stomps here for sure.

Do you have an answer to my question above?

galactusischere
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Do you have an answer to my question above?

I think I do...but I don't get what you want me to explain.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by galactusischere
I think I do...but I don't get what you want me to explain.

Did Krona OWN Grandmaster with all of those artifacts? If so, Krona is truly one of the most powerful cosmics ever.

galactusischere
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Did Krona OWN Grandmaster with all of those artifacts? If so, Krona is truly one of the most powerful cosmics ever.

Grandmaster entrapped Krona between the two merging universes after Krona 'killed' Galactus. Though Krona broke out shortly afterwards. I don't remember what happened after that, but we saw Grandmaster at one point die off from the beating that Krona gave him(he had all those artifacts). Though he came back to life at the end of the story.

Prep-Man
Damn, then Krona takes the fight. If he can beat someone with all those artifacts, than AM shouldn't be a problem.

cdtm
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Damn, then Krona takes the fight. If he can beat someone with all those artifacts, than AM shouldn't be a problem.

Personally, the best part for me was seeing him just destroy Galactus with his bare hands.

I love Big G, but with his hollier than thou attitude, he needs being taken down a peg every once in awhile.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Did Krona OWN Grandmaster with all of those artifacts? If so, Krona is truly one of the most powerful cosmics ever.

No. It would appear that way, but it seems like Grandmaster put on a show for the heroes and threw the fight. At the very end, Grandmaster and Metron are seen with a cosmic egg that has Krona's essence inside. The whole thing was a game played by Grandmaster and Metron, not Krona. Krona was a pawn diverted to the Marvel universe by Metron and Grandmaster, who agreed to play knowing that if the heroes had lost he would stay dead.


Metron - gets to observe the birth of the egg/universe
Krona - gets to experience the birth of the universe
Grandmaster - Played a game where all sides won
Heroes - won a victory

Had Grandmaster stopped Krona it would have denied him a game where all sides won out. In fact, he staked his life on the heroes winning against Krona. Furthermore, Grandmaster would have been directly involved in stopping Krona and ending the game and hat's not how he and Metron views it. Krona, Eternity, Kismet, Galactus, and the heroes were the pieces, he and Metron were the true players of the game. You win through manipulation of the pieces on the board, not by becoming a piece of the board and beating down Krona.

AM wins this. Krona is highly overrated.

cdtm
I like your analysis, but "Had Grandmaster stopped Krona?" He stalled him, but I don't think he could've overpowered him.

He had trouble enough handling Helmut Zemo with both moonstones, which mades him uber but not high abstract uber...

Galan007
Krona should have been one of the most powerful characters ever. My God, he had the power of entropy, the book of eternity, the infinity gems, the UN, a cosmic cube, a GL battery, the SoD, etc, etc.

Unfortunately, all he did on panel was pwn Galactus and destroy like 2-3 universes... And that's just not enough to put him above AM, I'm afraid.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by cdtm
I like your analysis, but "Had Grandmaster stopped Krona?" He stalled him, but I don't think he could've overpowered him.

Stalling him was because he pretended that's all he could do. Dying was part of the game being. It was up to the heroes to win, not Grandmaster. The game wasn't JLA Vs Avengers with the players being GM and Krona. I already explained that GM and Metron were the players. How would GM have gotten the game he was promised if he had defeated Krona himself? He chose to pretend the items weren't powerful enough to stop Krona and allowed Krona to kill him to further the game.



What does this have to do with anything? GM had the 12 artifacts and 1/4 of them can destroy atleast one universe. Then you have the IG which all omniscence and time travel in an instance. He couldn't do anything to Krona? Lol He chose not to to further the game.

Black bolt z
IF krona has all these artifacts then he wins.Without AM easy.

cdtm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Stalling him was because he pretended that's all he could do. Dying was part of the game being. It was up to the heroes to win, not Grandmaster. The game wasn't JLA Vs Avengers with the players being GM and Krona. I already explained that GM and Metron were the players. How would GM have gotten the game he was promised if he had defeated Krona himself? He chose to pretend the items weren't powerful enough to stop Krona and allowed Krona to kill him to further the game.



What does this have to do with anything? GM had the 12 artifacts and 1/4 of them can destroy atleast one universe. Then you have the IG which all omniscence and time travel in an instance. He couldn't do anything to Krona? Lol He chose not to to further the game.

Right, the artifacts.

A little sleep deprived, so I was thinking about the start of JLA/Avengers, and forgot we were talking about the artifacts power up.

The way I rationalized it, was by giving Krona the "composite superman benefit of the doubt".

As in, composites are usually > the group they borrow power from. So even if you can defeat, say, the entire Legion of Super Heroes, or the entire JLA, it doesn't mean you can defeat Composite Superman or Amazo with the same powers.

This is relevant, because Krona is basically a composite Eternity, having absorbed the power of multiple universes.. So if, say, the Ultimate Nullifier can delete X amount of universes, it might not be able to delete X if they were combined in a single being.

By the same token, Grandmaster was also essentially a composite being of multiple all powerful objects.

Of course, we have no idea how many universe Krona absorbed, or whether the power he took in included power items similar to the IG or UN...

Did Busiek even explain how Krona reverted from being sentenced to exist as a formless, harmless blob of energy?

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by cdtm
Right, the artifacts.

A little sleep deprived, so I was thinking about the start of JLA/Avengers, and forgot we were talking about the artifacts power up.

The way I rationalized it, was by giving Krona the "composite superman benefit of the doubt".

As in, composites are usually > the group they borrow power from. So even if you can defeat, say, the entire Legion of Super Heroes, or the entire JLA, it doesn't mean you can defeat Composite Superman or Amazo with the same powers.

This is relevant, because Krona is basically a composite Eternity, having absorbed the power of multiple universes.. So if, say, the Ultimate Nullifier can delete X amount of universes, it might not be able to delete X if they were combined in a single being.

By the same token, Grandmaster was also essentially a composite being of multiple all powerful objects.

Of course, we have no idea how many universe Krona absorbed, or whether the power he took in included power items similar to the IG or UN...


Did Busiek even explain how Krona reverted from being sentenced to exist as a formless, harmless blob of energy?

That still doesn't give him the level of omniscence or time travel ability the Guantlet offers. The UN can wipe out reality and reset everything that exist, leaving/deleting beings the user does not won't (Abraxas). By the end of the thing, Metron and GM clarifies that GM knew he'll die and that the heroes would need to win for him to be restored. That was part of the game. Him stopping Krona wasn't what him and Metron agreed too. He threw the fight so the game could progress further as Metron and he wanted. And by the end, they all got what they wanted.

cdtm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
That still doesn't give him the level of omniscence or time travel ability the Guantlet offers.

The Gauntlet applied to the MU though. It didn't work at all in the DCU.

Since Krona is outside of the MU, he might be beyond it's omniscience as well, in the same way Thanos is beyond omniscience.

Not to mention, Krona may well have absorbed items like the Infinity Gauntlet from the universes he destroyed.

The way he brought Galactus to him instantly, and ripped the information from Grandmasters mind, similar to what is possible with the mind and space gems, proves he absorbed some pretty potent abilities from the universes.

lightyeargee
Krona wins with little effort.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by cdtm
The Gauntlet applied to the MU though. It didn't work at all in the DCU.

Nope. He was operating within the Marvel Universe. He came their after Metron and Grandmaster diverted his attention to it. The contest might have been between two universes but Krona was still in the MU. When the last item was retrieved, it was in the Savage Land. The fight between Krona and GM was still in the Savage Land. The IG would work.



?Thanos' destiny is unknown to Chaos and Order. But his past can be seen and they can detect his where about. Being outside of the MU isn't going to stop someone with omniscience from knowing the past and altering it. In fact, Krona knew about the MU because GM agreed to it. Had GM decide not to play the game, Krona wouldn't have known about it. With the IG, GM could've gone back in time and changed his own decision and or kill Metron. Krona wouldn't be in MU.



What? Uh, yeah. Not all universes have their own IG. The only ones that showed up are from the What If universes. Other than that, Magus traveled through multiple universes and the only Gems shown were those of the 616. He had to manipulate LT to change his decision. So much work for gems if their were so many IG in other universes.



Teleportation and mind reading shouldn't have been hard for cosmics. He absorbed two universes so yeah it's an easy feat. But that's not the same as him have the powers of these items or even on their level.

cdtm
It's not just that he performed feats of teleportation and mind reading. It's that he plucked information out of Grandmasters mind (Being one of the more powerful Elders) and teleported Galactus against his will. It's about who he did it to, not what he did.

I can't see In Betweener doing that to Big G, or many other characters. Also, the fact he located Galactus so easily once he knew what he was looking for is impressive, and indicative of cosmic senses.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by cdtm
It's not just that he performed feats of teleportation and mind reading. It's that he plucked information out of Grandmasters mind (Being one of the more powerful Elders) and teleported Galactus against his will. It's about who he did it to, not what he did.

I can't see In Betweener doing that to Big G, or many other characters. Also, the fact he located Galactus so easily once he knew what he was looking for is impressive, and indicative of cosmic senses.

He has cosmic awareness but not omniscience like what the IG offers. He had to read GM's mind to find out.

cdtm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He has cosmic awareness but not omniscience like what the IG offers. He had to read GM's mind to find out.

Thanos certainly didn't see Surfer coming for his gauntlet until the last moment, nor see Nebula taking his gauntlet in his sleep. Mental blocks can't account for his inability to see this, if he was truly omniscent.

Nebula should have seen Warlock coming as well, despite the cosmic interference.

Extant with an incomplete Warlogog was more omniscent than any IG user displayed, and he only had a blind spot in this ability because of a plot device..

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by cdtm
Thanos certainly didn't see Surfer coming for his gauntlet until the last moment, nor see Nebula taking his gauntlet in his sleep. Mental blocks can't account for his inability to see this, if he was truly omniscent.

He turned it off during the fight to impress Death. And when Nebula grabbed it, that was after he'd beaten Eternity. When he had everything, he let his guard down subconsciously and lost it.



She was new at the power and the slowest to access all of it's abilities. She had trouble making wishes and nearly lost it with her first, big wish. Warlock's connection with the Soul Gem also
contributed to obscuring her vision of him.



What does the Warlogog have to do with Krona?

cdtm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He turned it off during the fight to impress Death. And when Nebula grabbed it, that was after he'd beaten Eternity. When he had everything, he let his guard down subconsciously and lost it.



She was new at the power and the slowest to access all of it's abilities. She had trouble making wishes and nearly lost it with her first, big wish. Warlock's connection with the Soul Gem also
contributed to obscuring her vision of him.



What does the Warlogog have to do with Krona?

The Warlogog has to do with an example of true omniscence.

The Gauntlet in theory should have it too, with the Time Gem, but there's no real examples of this ability.

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