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He's not fast enough, strong enough or clever enough. Dudes moveset has been countered by every relevant ninja in the series, he can't react to speedy taijutsu like Bee's or can't seem to connect a attack to a strong opponents like Danzou and relies on luck to win. Danzou reacted to his Susanoo arm and countered with Izanagi, against Bee he failed to trap him in Tsukyomi without reacting to his lariat afterwards.

Even Naruto has show faster displays like against Asura Pain and Tendou Pain. Even against Bee's students.

What happened to that Sasuke that was displaying godly displays against people above him, and still holding his own without someone helping him?

After Itachi. He's gotten weak.

Insanity does that to you I guess.

Because he sucks now, I mean he always has a set back in his feats of power and it never truly hypes the character in being a total badass that everyone claims him to be.

Lets look at the history

Sasuke in part 1.

He has Katon A rank mastery yet it doesn't damage.

Haku got him to beg for his life

He has high level taijutsu and speed yet Lee and even Kimmaro are far stronger and more professional.

He has chidori yet it's pales in comparison to Rasangan.

He has the CS but the Kyuubi surpasses it in chakra tanking.

He's a genius but he got tied up by naruto, out done by lee and he lost against Haku and Gaara.

Now in part 2.

He cuts a kunai in half

speed is fast but sai blocks his attacks with ease

He defeated a bunch of fodder that have no level of power

He needed CS2 to defeat a sick Oro

his chakra trick in naruto's mind was just projection and the Kyuubi was still locked

He had to use CS2 against a low akatsuki

he used chidori on a lowly bushin of Narutos

In the itachi fight he fights Itachi who is weak before the fight started

in tsukuyomi he used CS2 again to disrupt the chakra

His ultimate tech failed against Itachi's tech

He let out Oro unintentionally and still couldn't fight back

Itachi got him cornered and trembling in fear while Itachi passed out

Sasuke fought a handicapped blind man and almost lost.

I know, it really sucks balls that Sasuke isn't a complete Gary Stu and doesn't just plough through the manga like an unstoppable juggernaut. Why can't we, just once, have a character with no flaws or reasonable weaknesses, is that just too much to ask for? And how dare he, a what, 15, 16 year old NOT be kicking the shit out of people twice his age and experience. Its a travesty.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I know, it really sucks balls that Sasuke isn't a complete Gary Stu and doesn't just plough through the manga like an unstoppable juggernaut. Why can't we, just once, have a character with no flaws or reasonable weaknesses, is that just too much to ask for? And how dare he, a what, 15, 16 year old NOT be kicking the shit out of people twice his age and experience. Its a travesty. I not that he's young and human, it that his feats and greatest abilites are nerfed to hell compared to Naruto and Kakashi all have which shown better feats than Sasuke. Espeically Naruto. Sasuke just looks pathetic compared to them.

It;s not not like Sasuke's character is exactly the well written type either, he's currently being shat on for further hype for Naruto when he and him fight again and Naruto wins. So I'm asking for a little decency here, and wanting Sasuke to ya know......be badass and cool again. Instead of Vegeta 2.0 the Jobber.

We're not going to see Sasuke be all 'Kakashi vs pre-team 7' on the people he goes up against. Oro, Deidara, Bee, Itachi, the Kage's and Danzo, some of the strongest and most threatening in the ninjaverse and he beat them. Not with ease or showing that he's an ace above them but they are 'some of the strongest and most threatening in the ninjaverse.'

Originally posted by killermover
I not that he's young and human, it that his feats and greatest abilites are nerfed to hell compared to Naruto and Kakashi all have which shown better feats than Sasuke. Espeically Naruto. Sasuke just looks pathetic compared to them.

It;s not not like Sasuke's character is exactly the well written type either, he's currently being shat on for further hype for Naruto when he and him fight again and Naruto wins. So I'm asking for a little decency here, and wanting Sasuke to ya know......be badass and cool again. Instead of Vegeta 2.0 the Jobber. Different between Vegeta and Sasuke, Vegeta is cool, and Sasuke actually wins his fights.

And Kakashi hasn't shown anything better than Sasuke really......

Originally posted by Kento
Different between Vegeta and Sasuke, Vegeta is cool, and Sasuke actually wins his fights.

And Kakashi hasn't shown anything better than Sasuke really...... Vegeta and Sasuke are the same character? Their equal in comparisons.

Kakashi raikiri wolf almost took out outer pain and out manuevered Base Kazuku with simple taijutsu.

This entire thread is just a denying the antecedent fallacy.

Sasuke having trouble against them does not mean he is weak, it was because his opponents were strong.

Um, he straight up defeated Danzo, by himself. He beat a kage, by himself. That is not "being shit on".

To be fair Danzo would have easily won if his most hax jutsu were not unusable at that point.

Originally posted by NemeBro
To be fair Danzo would have easily won if his most hax jutsu were not unusable at that point.
So basically, he lost because he was unable to win? In case you haven't noticed, this wouldn't exactly be a rare case that a character lost once they ran out of power for their techniques. It happens all the time.

I was talking about Shisui's eye, which he was unable to use before the fight started.

He regained use during the fight, but it didn't help him.

When?

Originally posted by killermover
Vegeta and Sasuke are the same character? Their equal in comparisons.

Kakashi raikiri wolf almost took out outer pain and out manuevered Base Kazuku with simple taijutsu.

And nearly beating base Kakuzu/outer path is >= nearly beating 4 kages?
Nahh.

Originally posted by killermover
After Itachi. He's gotten weak.

On the contrary, he's gotten much more powerful. I guarantee you that Taka Sasuke would have had no chance against Raikage. He'd have been swatted aside almost as easily as Juugo was.

He just seems slower since he's relied more on his MS after he gained it, and hasn't really used a lot of taijutsu. He went up against Bee and Raikage who are in the upper echelon when it comes to speed, so I doubt Sasuke's speed would astonish those two.
Then in his fight against Danzou, he almost exclusively relied on Susano'o.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He regained use during the fight, but it didn't help him.

That's because Danzou never wanted to use it on Sasuke, and he never gave Danzou a chance to use it on Madara.
In all honesty, usage of Shisui's eye earlier in the fight probably would have given Danzou the win, unless Sasuke used that Hulk factor of his to overcome it.

^So saying he couldn't beat such and such validates his crappy skills and showings as ninja in whole, of course he's not allowed to directly kill anyone so that makes him even the less impressive as a character who is now a villain.

THeres only two things that shows a characters strengths and showings to me, winning or losing, Sasuke has lost the majority of his battles in this manga and to me that doesn't show me he's stronger or impressive as a ninja since he's been hyped times and times again to be the best of his breed. Beating fodder and weak ass chunnin means nothing compared to what Naruto did to Kakuzu and Pain.

And you just admmited he didn't truly defeat Danzou or Raikage as a peak ninja character. So how is he not weak, I man sure he's stronger than the rookies, but his feats suck ass. Naruto on the other hand, obliterated an akatsuki member with FRS with one try.

Originally posted by killermover
^So saying he couldn't beat such and such validates his crappy skills and showings as ninja in whole, of course he's not allowed to directly kill anyone so that makes him even the less impressive as a character who is now a villain.

THeres only two things that shows a characters strengths and showings to me, winning or losing, Sasuke has lost the majority of his battles in this manga and to me that doesn't show me he's stronger or impressive as a ninja since he's been hyped times and times again to be the best of his breed. Beating fodder and weak ass chunnin means nothing compared to what Naruto did to Kakuzu and Pain.

By this absurd logic (more wins = stronger, more losses = weaker), Pein should be the strongest character in the series, even stronger than the Sage of the Six Paths and the Jubi.

We only know that the Sage has beaten the Jubi, while Pein has beaten far more opponents, and was basically unbeaten until Naruto and his ability to wield PIS came along.



EDIT: Where did I say he didn't truly defeat the Raikage? The fight was inconclusive.
As for Danzou, I never said he did not truly beat him. Sasuke beat Danzou fairly. The minute he used that weak genjutsu on Danzou, he had won.

I only said that Danzou could have won had he had the usage of Shisui's eye. That wasn't the case in the fight though.

When did Sasuke nearly beat four Kages?

Raikage was dominating him until he hit him with Amaterasu, the chick nearly killed him, and Onoki would have killed him were it not for Madara.

Sasuke doesn't have many 'weak' feats, he just has 'stupid' feats. Him losing or having trouble are more becuase he a total ****-nugget with no sense of strategy or patience and trying to take on ninja waaay outta his league. Seriously, if he'd just be patient and train up for another 5 years he'd probably be able to beat characters like the Raikage and Bee and would have had a much easier time with Danzou.

Like him getting his as kicked at the Kage meeting was becuase he tried to fight all the Kages rather than just Danzou. He got his ass beat by the Raikage and Mizukage and never even got in visual distance from Danzou. You're a ninja, assassinate people you ****ing twit!

Maybe we'll get lucky and Madara might have juiced up them eyes he gave Sasuke ;D, and Sasuke gets like...a new..level..of..unheard of sharingan where he can just get hit in the face by someone with the strength of like Tsunade but on like a God level of that..and not even budge and just chuckle..and then think of them and they are erased from existence and like..he shatters multi verses with his mere presence and gods cower before his power and his thoughts make worlds and entire civilizations just implode and never were ;D...and anyone who ever existed or is alive is because he willed it and he can't die cause death doesn't even apply to him cause it cowers in fear knowing he can just easily think it out of existence

and in the end he actually beats Naruto (who don't worry gets a pretty decent power up..and they decide to be all epic and not use their ungodly powerset and resort to just an epic hand to hand battle that is ripping time and space and reality apart at the very seams)...and the series becomes.."Sasuke" and he develops such an ungodly powerset that makes him the strongest character ever to be created...

hey i'm just saying <.< >.>...I'd be happy with it ^-^;..

Originally posted by killermover
And you just admmited he didn't truly defeat Danzou or Raikage as a peak ninja character.

Um, he DID defeat Danzo, one on one. He beat Danzou, who has some of the most broken abilities in the manga.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Insanity does that to you I guess.

Pretty much. He stopped using his brain and starting becoming more and more focused on raw power. Sasuke's better when he's clever because while his power went up from the mangekyo and learning it's moves, it's still not the best around.


Though I'd say his win against Danzo was pretty legit, he remembered to use both genjutsu and lightning jutsu in that fight to beat some impressive sharingan hax.

Although, i'd like to say that Sasuke only beat Danzou because the writer cheated... each eye was supposed to take 60 seconds to close, but not even counting the genjutsu the last three "real" eyes closed in like 5 seconds a piece.

More than likely, chakra reserves played a role in the time they had too.

Originally posted by killermover
Because he sucks now, I mean he always has a set back in his feats of power and it never truly hypes the character in being a total badass that everyone claims him to be.

Lets look at the history

Sasuke in part 1.

Haku got him to beg for his life

He has high level taijutsu and speed yet Lee and even Kimmaro are far stronger and more professional.

He has chidori yet it's pales in comparison to Rasangan.

He has the CS but the Kyuubi surpasses it in chakra tanking.

He's a genius but he got tied up by naruto, out done by lee and he lost against Haku and Gaara.

Now in part 2.

He cuts a kunai in half

speed is fast but sai blocks his attacks with ease

He defeated a bunch of fodder that have no level of power

He needed CS2 to defeat a sick Oro

his chakra trick in naruto's mind was just projection and the Kyuubi was still locked

He had to use CS2 against a low akatsuki

he used chidori on a lowly bushin of Narutos

In the itachi fight he fights Itachi who is weak before the fight started

in tsukuyomi he used CS2 again to disrupt the chakra

His ultimate tech failed against Itachi's tech

He let out Oro unintentionally and still couldn't fight back

Itachi got him cornered and trembling in fear while Itachi passed out

Sasuke fought a handicapped blind man and almost lost.

you are down playing sasuke alot

Part 1.

He lost to Haku mainly because of naruto. Haku did state sasuke could have won which is why he attacked naruto

Chidori and rasengan are equal in power which is why they clash each and every time if one was stronger than the other it would have been like kakashi and naruto's rasengan clash. one of the jutsus would fail.

Part 2

if you comparing the two Naruto had to go 4 tails in order to even keep up with oro. so sasuke using cs2 doesnt reallly matter seeing as how regardless sick or not oro is still a very strong ninja

sasuke did in fact surpress the Fox. The fox said so himself

Since when is deidara a low level akatsuki member

And you fail to realize that that blind and sick man was Itachi one of the strongest characters in the show even stronger than oro


the reason sasuke hasnt been blitzing anybody lately is because he is fighting characters as strong if not stronger than himself

Originally posted by King Kandy
Although, i'd like to say that Sasuke only beat Danzou because the writer cheated... each eye was supposed to take 60 seconds to close, but not even counting the genjutsu the last three "real" eyes closed in like 5 seconds a piece. it was in a panel how can you tell how mmuch time passed wait till the anime comes out before you make a blind assumption like that

Originally posted by Q99
Pretty much. He stopped using his brain and starting becoming more and more focused on raw power. Sasuke's better when he's clever because while his power went up from the mangekyo and learning it's moves, it's still not the best around.


Though I'd say his win against Danzo was pretty legit, he remembered to use both genjutsu and lightning jutsu in that fight to beat some impressive sharingan hax.


i agree completely the last time i really liked sasuke was against deidara because he used his brain

Originally posted by yungz22
it was in a panel how can you tell how mmuch time passed wait till the anime comes out before you make a blind assumption like that
It was the time it took for Danzo's hand to swing a kunai... in no way could that have possibly been 60 seconds.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/15/

They show one eye closing in like 5-10 seconds. The next panels are an 'empty' panel, and one with Madara doing his usual shit, just watching people.
An indefinite amount of time passes between the 3rd eye closing, and Danzou looking at his hand and 'seeing' one eye open.

We know something happened in between because Sasuke obviously cast the genjutsu after all eyes closed, and this page shows a panel with those two engaged in their skirmish after Sasuke stops using Susano'o srug

Besides, Madara stated that Danzou never knew how long each eye would last, and I think the length of Izanagi varies from person to person.
He was constantly double-checking as well.
That could mean that each eye didn't really have a 60 second limit. Orochimaru put 10 eyes on Danzou's arm as Izanagi would obviously last longer if he had 10 eyes, as opposed to just 2 or 1.

Also sasuke didnt almost lose to itachi

He flat out lost

Itachi died to aids during thier fight

you guys only base your thoughts about sasuke on what you see, try to read naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sasuke_Uchiha

Kishimoto might get pissed off by your comments on sasuke.

sasuke is one of the favorite characters of the creator.

Originally posted by Mochi28
you guys only base your thoughts about sasuke on what you see, try to read naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sasuke_Uchiha

Well that just makes us horrible people.

Originally posted by Mochi28
Kishimoto might get pissed off by your comments on sasuke.

sasuke is one of the favorite characters of the creator.

I'm flattered he thinks so highly of our opinions.

So is Choji. He made Choji fat. Clearly he has contempt for his favorites.

Originally posted by killermover
Because he sucks now, I mean he always has a set back in his feats of power and it never truly hypes the character in being a total badass that everyone claims him to be.

Lets look at the history

Sasuke in part 1.

He has Katon A rank mastery yet it doesn't damage.

Haku got him to beg for his life

He has high level taijutsu and speed yet Lee and even Kimmaro are far stronger and more professional.

He has chidori yet it's pales in comparison to Rasangan.

He has the CS but the Kyuubi surpasses it in chakra tanking.

He's a genius but he got tied up by naruto, out done by lee and he lost against Haku and Gaara.

Now in part 2.

He cuts a kunai in half

speed is fast but sai blocks his attacks with ease

He defeated a bunch of fodder that have no level of power

He needed CS2 to defeat a sick Oro

his chakra trick in naruto's mind was just projection and the Kyuubi was still locked

He had to use CS2 against a low akatsuki

he used chidori on a lowly bushin of Narutos

In the itachi fight he fights Itachi who is weak before the fight started

in tsukuyomi he used CS2 again to disrupt the chakra

His ultimate tech failed against Itachi's tech

He let out Oro unintentionally and still couldn't fight back

Itachi got him cornered and trembling in fear while Itachi passed out

Sasuke fought a handicapped blind man and almost lost.

....

Man I miss this so much you guys.

you guys really don't like sasuke huh? hahaha. let the story decide. it's how the story goes.

(naruto might be dead a long time ago if sasuke did not block the attack of haku.)

a weak person doesnt know how to use 2 two element techniques ( fire and Lightning)

a weak person doesnt know how to create his own techinique (kirin)

a weak person doesnt know how to solve problems scientifically (vs deidara)

a weak person cannot do hand seals quickly (4/sec)

a weak person cannot defeat a huge number of oto-nin without killing their them in a short period of time, now that is speed (naruto will use kage bunshin i guess)

a weak person cannot expand a single tech and develop it to lot of different techs ( chidori )

and a lot more...

im not saying this because im a fan of uchiha brothers..
dont base on the outcome of every challenge sasuke has encountered, it's on how the story goes..

No one here thinks Sasuke is weak except for the guy who made the thread. Sasuke is strong but he isn't the strongest or in the top 10(Much to Killermover's chagrin).

Sasuke is weaker than Bee, Itachi, and Onoki of the people he has fought....well and Kabuto too I guess. Sasuke has surpassed Orochimaru.

Sasuke is not weak, he just isn't among the strongest, which he shouldn't be because that would come out of nowhere. And he gets enough stuff from nowhere as it is

Originally posted by Bentley
Sasuke is not weak, he just isn't among the strongest, which he shouldn't be because that would come out of nowhere. And he gets enough stuff from nowhere as it is

Whatever Sasuke gets, it will not be as dumb as Sage Mode.

When we first see Sasuke after the timeskip he displays incredible speed.

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/3259/fastgc5.jpg http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/6431/fast2bo3.jpg

He could even take out armies by himself.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/9756/ownbs0.jpg

That said. Lately he's been relying on his eye techniques too much making it look like he's weak and taking cheap shots.

I essentially agree with you, but you used like, the most terrible examples you could find. Impressing Sakura with your speed isn't really that big a deal, nor is impressing Yamato, who is a featless wonder, speed-wise.

And then, we have no idea what the circumstances are behind him defeating that army, so, while impressive, it's not really a good indication of his power.

Indeed.

Better example would be this

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v39/c357/11.html

Or this
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v39/c357/9.html

For speed anyway.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
And nearly beating base Kakuzu/outer path is >= nearly beating 4 kages?
Nahh.


When did Sasuke even come close to beating 4 kages? Oonoki was going to murder him if Tobi hadn't stepped in. So was Mei. A was going to win (although at a high cost), if not for interference from Gaara. he had no chance of victory in that encounter.

In spite of this, sasuke is still a top ninja considering there aren't too many ninja who are taking him out. I really don't see anyone lower than Kakashi from Konoha even standing a chance. He is definitely Kage level as much as it pains me to say it. He just takes on strong opponents which he should struggle with.

Originally posted by socool8520
When did Sasuke even come close to beating 4 kages? Oonoki was going to murder him if Tobi hadn't stepped in. So was Mei. A was going to win (although at a high cost), if not for interference from Gaara. he had no chance of victory in that encounter.

In spite of this, sasuke is still a top ninja considering there aren't too many ninja who are taking him out. I really don't see anyone lower than Kakashi from Konoha even standing a chance. He is definitely Kage level as much as it pains me to say it. He just takes on strong opponents which he should struggle with.

Yea. The Kage were destroying him, but, if he wasn't kage level himself, there's no way he'd have lasted as long as he did. Nin tried to take on four kage! (+A's two bodyguards)

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Indeed.

Better example would be this

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v39/c357/11.html

Or this
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v39/c357/9.html

For speed anyway.

Deidara seems impressed, but I never really considered Deidara to be very fast. He made up for it by having long range capabilities.

Originally posted by socool8520
When did Sasuke even come close to beating 4 kages? Oonoki was going to murder him if Tobi hadn't stepped in. So was Mei. A was going to win (although at a high cost), if not for interference from Gaara. he had no chance of victory in that encounter.

In spite of this, sasuke is still a top ninja considering there aren't too many ninja who are taking him out. I really don't see anyone lower than Kakashi from Konoha even standing a chance. He is definitely Kage level as much as it pains me to say it. He just takes on strong opponents which he should struggle with.

Yes, it was a mistake.

While I agree that Onoki and Mei should have killed him by all rights (hardly detracts from Sasuke's strength though, as he was exhausted and barely had any chakra when facing Mei, who he would have destroyed had he been at full strength), there's no way we can be certain A would have won, not with those Enton spikes seemingly about to skewer his ass.
Sasuke still incapacitated 2 Kage, 4 Bodyguards, and numerous Samurai long enough for him to have his fight against Mei and Onoki, thus he technically 'won' that encounter anyway.

I'd use the phrase 'separated' more than incapacitated. They were still in their full capacity ('cept for A and his arm), they were just cut off.



Also I don't think Sasuke vs Mei would be anything but a contentious fight.

Fair enough; he still took them out of the fight.

I respect your opinion, but I think Kage Summit Sasuke would still win the majority.

To go into more detail, I think start-of-summit Sasuke, with only the Ribcage, would probably lose, but end-of-summit, where he has the skeleton with crossbow, would probably win.

Eh, I think if Summit Sasuke fought with just rib-cage Susano'o, he'd lose. If he used his other ninjutsu and genutsu, he'd win.

I hope that when he fights Naruto, Naruto just casually rips his spine out. Because that is how the fight should go right about now.

Yea, so far Sasuke's upgrades... haven't really measured up to Naruto's!

At the moment, his Susano'o seems like it might put him a bit above Sage Naruto at best.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Eh, I think if Summit Sasuke fought with just rib-cage Susano'o, he'd lose. If he used his other ninjutsu and genutsu, he'd win.

With other ninjutsu and such, she's got elemental advantage over fire, and has kekkei genkai which are stronger than his lightning unless he can pull off kirin.

I'd say she's pretty well off in a fight against him.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, so far Sasuke's upgrades... haven't really measured up to Naruto's!

At the moment, his Susano'o seems like it might put him a bit above Sage Naruto at best.

Naruto will obviously ave to get poisoned again. :/

Originally posted by socool8520
Deidara seems impressed, but I never really considered Deidara to be very fast. He made up for it by having long range capabilities.

Deidara ran circles around Team Guy.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, so far Sasuke's upgrades... haven't really measured up to Naruto's!

At the moment, his Susano'o seems like it might put him a bit above Sage Naruto at best.



With other ninjutsu and such, she's got elemental advantage over fire, and has kekkei genkai which are stronger than his lightning unless he can pull off kirin.

I'd say she's pretty well off in a fight against him.

Yeah. There are still two upgrades left that he can attain, and Tobi intends to have him use Gedo Mazo or something like that. Naruto too has to completely sync up with Kurama.

She can stop his regular Fire techniques, but not his Lightning. Amaterasu/Enton would likely trump her Lava Kekkei Genkai. Boil Release is harder to trump if they're in a small enclosed area, but he can just escape into the next room.
She has no genjutsu resistance feats.

I wouldn't.

Her water and her fire are both elementally neutral with his lightning.

Lava, she did surround Madara with it once, she's pretty good.

Also in a wider open area, boil might not be as dense but a big cloud'll still be dangerous. I don't think there's anything stopping her from doing a battlezone encompassing one like she and Zabuza do with normal mist.




No, but nor has she shown vulnerability, and she uses mist-clouds which prevent eye contact (both normal water and boiling).

Originally posted by Q99
Her water and her fire are both elementally neutral with his lightning.

Lava, she did surround Madara with it once, she's pretty good.

Also in a wider open area, boil might not be as dense but a big cloud'll still be dangerous. I don't think there's anything stopping her from doing a battlezone encompassing one like she and Zabuza do with normal mist.




No, but nor has she shown vulnerability, and she uses mist-clouds which prevent eye contact (both normal water and boiling).

Doesn't mean she'll stop them. Chidori spear could get her if she's in range.

Madara evaded it until A punched him into the Lava. Sasuke has also evaded it. When they were surrounded, both of them rendered it useless more or less as Susano'o can withstand it long enough for the user to get rid of it, and I still think it can be trumped by Amaterasu.

You don't have to show vulnerability to genjutsu in order to be trapped, even for a bit. She has nothing that shows she'd be in the same league as someone like Kurenai.
Forgot about her mist-clouds. Fire should still disperse some of it though.

Lemme point out how fast she is with her water jutsu:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c577/5.html

Mei first cancelled out Madara's big fireball then got a water dragon that chomped on Madara and his ribcage susano'o pretty much the next moment. Large fast offensive jutsu are easy for her (apparently she can one-sign water dragons like the 2nd Hokage can, while even the likes of Kakashi needs to do the whole sequence).



Makes Madara's skeletal susano'o all melty here.

And a susano'o being melty apparently hurts. Sasuke was having trouble with that in the acid.

If caught it'll also hinder his movement.



It can burn away the lava, yea, but I think making him use his eye techniques on her more repeatable kekkei genkai moves would be a good thing.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Deidara ran circles around Team Guy.

I can't recall this fight very well. I thought he was flying around for most of it. If he was on the ground most of the time, then this is somewhat impressive just beacause of Lee's speed.

Originally posted by Q99
Her water and her fire are both elementally neutral with his lightning.

Lava, she did surround Madara with it once, she's pretty good.

Also in a wider open area, boil might not be as dense but a big cloud'll still be dangerous. I don't think there's anything stopping her from doing a battlezone encompassing one like she and Zabuza do with normal mist.




No, but nor has she shown vulnerability, and she uses mist-clouds which prevent eye contact (both normal water and boiling).

The mist does confuse even the sharingan right? I mean, Kakashi couldn't track Zabuza iirc. Plus what you already said about melting susano'o makes this a tough fight for Sasuke. He could pull out a W by spamming Amaterasu or something like that, but this is a pretty close one. The only reason the A/Sasuke fight was so close is because Sasuke is way more versatile. Had A had any mid-to-long range jutsus, that fight would have been totally different. Honestly, besides A and Tsunade, Sasuke would have a very hard time taking a majority over the other Kage.

Originally posted by socool8520
I can't recall this fight very well. I thought he was flying around for most of it. If he was on the ground most of the time, then this is somewhat impressive just beacause of Lee's speed.

It was on the ground. Deidara was lacking in arms as well so all he could do was dodge.

That seems like PIS to me though. Lee was able to get around Gaara's attacks and Deidara was having trouble with them.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It was on the ground. Deidara was lacking in arms as well so all he could do was dodge.

Link?

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v31/c277/15.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v31/c277/16.html

Originally posted by Nephthys
Link?

Edit: Nevermind!

He didn't evade them for very long but he did evade them.

Originally posted by socool8520
That seems like PIS to me though. Lee was able to get around Gaara's attacks and Deidara was having trouble with them.

Gaara has likely gotten a tiny bit better since then, Deidara had more sand to deal with, and it was the explosions that were unable to outspeed the sand.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Edit: Nevermind!

He didn't evade them for very long but he did evade them.



Gaara has likely gotten a tiny bit better since then, Deidara had more sand to deal with, and it was the explosions that were unable to outspeed the sand.

I agree he has gotten better but Lee avoided them pretty much effortlessly after going gates and did well with just the weights off.

Originally posted by socool8520
I agree he has gotten better but Lee avoided them pretty much effortlessly after going gates and did well with just the weights off.

Then that means Deidara is really fast for being able to dance around Gaara and Lee.

well, he was in the air during the gaara fight so it wasn't his speed. More like his clay bird's speed. As for dancing around Lee, I think that pretty ridiculous.

Originally posted by Q99
Lemme point out how fast she is with her water jutsu:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c577/5.html

Mei first cancelled out Madara's big fireball then got a water dragon that chomped on Madara and his ribcage susano'o pretty much the next moment. Large fast offensive jutsu are easy for her (apparently she can one-sign water dragons like the 2nd Hokage can, while even the likes of Kakashi needs to do the whole sequence).

Lemme point out fast Sasuke can be when using his Lightning jutsu:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v40/c367/3.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v45/c415/4.html

Itachi apparently does not need to do Water Dragons with all signs as well. We don't know if Kakashi really needs to do the whole sequence. Zabuza needs to though.
But yeah, shows she is a great Water user.

Originally posted by Q99
Makes Madara's skeletal susano'o all melty here.

And a susano'o being melty apparently hurts. Sasuke was having trouble with that in the acid.

If caught it'll also hinder his movement.

Depends on how much time the Lava is around the user. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v50/c466/3.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v50/c466/4.html
Sasuke is hit by the lava, and his rib-cage Susano'o is unaffected after he's hit out of it by Hiramekarei.

The reason it hurt Sasuke was because the mist was getting through the small rib-cage version. Not to mention the fact that he was chakra-exhausted to the point where he was fell down and could not maintain the incomplete version of Susano'o that kept him safe.

You forgot to note how easily Madara got rid of the lava around him after he was covered in it for some time.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v50/c466/3.html

Originally posted by Q99
It can burn away the lava, yea, but I think making him use his eye techniques on her more repeatable kekkei genkai moves would be a good thing.

Manipulating existing flames should be far easier for him than creating Amaterasu.

Originally posted by socool8520
The mist does confuse even the sharingan right? I mean, Kakashi couldn't track Zabuza iirc. Plus what you already said about melting susano'o makes this a tough fight for Sasuke. He could pull out a W by spamming Amaterasu or something like that, but this is a pretty close one. The only reason the A/Sasuke fight was so close is because Sasuke is way more versatile. Had A had any mid-to-long range jutsus, that fight would have been totally different. Honestly, besides A and Tsunade, Sasuke would have a very hard time taking a majority over the other Kage.

Sasuke would beat Gaara.

Out of the current Kage, Onoki's really the only one who'd stomp him.

Originally posted by socool8520
well, he was in the air during the gaara fight so it wasn't his speed. More like his clay bird's speed. As for dancing around Lee, I think that pretty ridiculous.

Deidara has evaded Part 2 Sasuke, who would make Part 1 Lee (weights off) look like a sloth in comparison.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Edit: Nevermind!

He didn't evade them for very long but he did evade them.


Sniped you. uhuh

Even greater is the fact that he evaded the godly Tenten's shuriken. awesome

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix



Manipulating existing flames should be far easier for him than creating Amaterasu.

I know that Sasuke was exhausted, but it did seem just as taxing for him to manipulate Amaterasu as it was to make it when he extinguished it from Karin. It's still a major drain either way.

Originally posted by socool8520
well, he was in the air during the gaara fight so it wasn't his speed. More like his clay bird's speed. As for dancing around Lee, I think that pretty ridiculous.

His flight speed then.

Well he did it. O:

Originally posted by socool8520
I know that Sasuke was exhausted, but it did seem just as taxing for him to manipulate Amaterasu as it was to make it when he extinguished it from Karin. It's still a major drain either way.

It was the first time he'd tried to extinguish the flames. Itachi did the same thing with little difficulty.

It should take more chakra to create Amaterasu, than it should take to manipulate pre-existing Flames.

^ I agree completely. Just going off what I read and what was shown.

Besides, Itachi is way more skilled than Sasuke so him doing it easily is no big surprise. I thought Sasuke's advantage was in genjutsu

Quite the opposite. Itachi is the genjutsu guy, Sasuke has better Amaterasu showings though.

I thought it was referenced that his genjutsu skills were stronger when he broke free of Tsukiyomi by the Zetsu bystander. Itachi has lower showings because he doesn't have to rely on Ameterasu like Sasuke right now.

Nope, considering Itachi was trying to let Sasuke win. Sasuke isn't bad at genjutsu but Itachi has the best showings for it.

He uses Tsukuyomi more than Sasuke, which is why he is the genjutsu guy.

^ Well then the same can be said of him having weaker Amaterasu showings as well since the only time he really showed it off was in the Sasuke fight and you just said he was jobbing out. He really hasn't used it since then unlike Sasuke who uses it like a crutch.

He's used it on Nagato when he was revived. It was weaker. And he's never displayed the shape manipulation of it iirc.

He has shown that he can cover a large area with it though. He covered the forested area below the building in the Sasuke fight as well as match the giant fireball sasuke was using with Amaterasu flame.

Originally posted by socool8520
^ I agree completely. Just going off what I read and what was shown.

Besides, Itachi is way more skilled than Sasuke so him doing it easily is no big surprise. I thought Sasuke's advantage was in genjutsu

When it comes to Amaterasu, the consensus is that Sasuke is more skilled than Itachi, both in Naruto-verse and here. He can shape it in any way he wants, and he's also produced a Bijuu sized Amaterasu, something that Itachi never could do.

When it comes to genjutsu, Itachi is by far more skilled than Sasuke, even if Sasuke could break out of Tsukuyomi. Itachi is probably the best genjutsu user in Naruto.

Heck, it's even reflected in the primary weapons for their Armored Susano'o. Itachi's has a Genjutsu sword Jar. Sasuke's has an Amaterasu orb.

Originally posted by socool8520
I thought it was referenced that his genjutsu skills were stronger when he broke free of Tsukiyomi by the Zetsu bystander. Itachi has lower showings because he doesn't have to rely on Ameterasu like Sasuke right now.

Itachi was holding back.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v51/c478/3.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v51/c480/5.html

Itachi's Tsukuyomi is far superior to Sasuke's MS genjutsu. He's also the only one capable of controlling someone from outside the range of a sensor, with just genjutsu.

I guess....I have no scans to review since I'm at work right now.