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DE Sidious (well practiced in sabers so not rusty)

Vs.

Mace Windu (rots)

note
Though no force tk, lightening, illusions, etc, can be used, each combantant is free to use the force to the best of their abilities to buff, enhance their physical and attributes. Such as speed, cognition, reflexes, strength, jumps, endurance, stamina, etc.

shatterpoint?

Would shatterpoint be a skill or a force power?

its a force power.

its super natural

Mace Windu wins again, but not because of Shatterpoint.

It's because of the Vaapad thingy. However, channeling that much darkness might be dangerous to his well-being, much less possible corruption.

Sidious takes this. Vapaad will protect Mace from Sidious' Force attacks, but since this is sabers only, it doesn't matter. Sidious wins; he's too good.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sidious takes this. Vapaad will protect Mace from Sidious' Force attacks, but since this is sabers only, it doesn't matter. Sidious wins; he's too good. It wasn't the force attacks I was afraid of, but the potential damage from channelling Sidious energy into Vaapad, if he gets it going in time. DE Sidious is dangerously dark and evil, to the point of killing himself with his own power.

Vaapad isn't about reflecting Force attacks, though its partaking in a duel will go towards that. It uses the Darkness of the opponent in conjunction with one's own inner-Darkness. Even without offensive Force powers, Mace will still be feeding off Sidious natural "Dark aura".

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Vaapad isn't about reflecting Force attacks, though its partaking in a duel will go towards that. It uses the Darkness of the opponent in conjunction with one's own inner-Darkness. Even without offensive Force powers, Mace will still be feeding off Sidious natural "Dark aura".
Nevermind, I think your agreeing with me. shit computer. I would have editted this sooner.

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Nevermind, I think your agreeing with me. shit computer. I would have editted this sooner. Yeah, I am. I meant to quote Glentract.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sidious takes this. Vapaad will protect Mace from Sidious' Force attacks, but since this is sabers only, it doesn't matter. Sidious wins; he's too good.

So... how do you figure Sids is superior to Windu in saber ability?
Don't say because of his uber awesome speed, because that's no less a force assisted ability than Vaapad is.

Hm, Sidious' Juyo vs. Mace's Vaapad. I'll go with Mace. Force Lightning and TK are two of Palpatine's main weapons. Take that away, and some of his lethality is gone. Mace doesn't rely too much on the Force, he can just use the strength of Palpy's attacks against him.

Right A4E, you are correct sir.

This is a seriously close match. On the one hand they'll be almost equal, yet DE Sidious is different from ROTS Sids, who Mace stalemated. He's got a much younger body, so he won't have to boost himself up as much with the Force to compensate for his age like he had to in ROTS, so he'll be at a higher level, but theres also the fact that his clone body isn't capable of handling his vast power very well, so he might weaken faster. All in all, Mace may win through attrition, becuase on top on the above he has both his own reserves and Sidious' to draw from and so logically can hold out longer, if Pals vitality isn't the key to letting him quickly beat Mace.

50-50 split imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is a seriously close match. On the one hand they'll be almost equal, yet DE Sidious is different from ROTS Sids, who Mace stalemated. 50-50 split imo.

How do you get "mace stalemated" out of their battle? It's canon that Mace disarmed and defeated Sidious. Yes, the outcome was that Mace dies (due to little Annie), but the fact remains that Mace won the duel/fight/battle/wtf ever you want to call it.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
How do you get "mace stalemated" out of their battle? It's canon that Mace disarmed and defeated Sidious. Yes, the outcome was that Mace dies (due to little Annie), but the fact remains that Mace won the duel/fight/battle/wtf ever you want to call it.

Well, it is debatable that Sidious genuinely lost his duel. He could have been feigning his defeat to draw Anakin closer the Dark Side of the Force. He didn't seem so weak when he blasting Mace with Lightning, I'll tell you that.

That's two different things. Sidious is much superior to Mace in the Force, granted. Mace won the duel. Why would Sidious be weak after a single kick?

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Well, it is debatable that Sidious genuinely lost his duel. He could have been feigning his defeat to draw Anakin closer the Dark Side of the Force. He didn't seem so weak when he blasting Mace with Lightning, I'll tell you that.

We're talking about a "lightsaber battle" and Mace won (without a shadow of a doubt - backed by novel canon and by GL himself) that portion of their duel. This shouldn't even be a debate, but.... well.... I guess that's why we're here.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
That's two different things. Sidious is much superior to Mace in the Force, granted. Mace won the duel. Why would Sidious be weak after a single kick?

Yes, everyone knows Sids would ****ing destroy Mace in a pure force contest. But I don't think Mace would ever let it come to that. Anyways, I'm getting a little off track here. Point is, Mace already defeated Palps in a saber duel, and would no doubt do it again if said limitations applied.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
How do you get "mace stalemated" out of their battle? It's canon that Mace disarmed and defeated Sidious. Yes, the outcome was that Mace dies (due to little Annie), but the fact remains that Mace won the duel/fight/battle/wtf ever you want to call it.

Mace only won becuase he found Sidious' Shatterpoint (unless thats considered non-canon) and becuase he manipulated the environment, neither of which he can do here. Up until that point the novel makes it quite clear that they're equals.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace only won becuase he found Sidious' Shatterpoint (unless thats considered non-canon) and becuase he manipulated the environment, neither of which he can do here. Up until that point the novel makes it quite clear that they're equals.

This is true. Mace himself stated the full power of Vaapad could only end the duel in a stalemate. The shatterpoint led to the "check". Anakin came in and took away the "mate".

'There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.'

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
its a force power.

its super natural

Why can't he manipulate the environment here? Don't see where you come up with this. And BW never commented on whether Shatterpoint was considered a usable talent or not. It seems to me that Shatterpoint is closer to a usable skill, then something along the lines of force tk, lightening, illusions, etc... of which (the latter) are banned.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.'

I understant this part. I guess it comes down to whether BW interprets SP as a usable skill or not in regards to this fight.

No location was given so I'm just assuming its a neutral arena, without manipulatable stuff. \shrugs\

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
It wasn't the force attacks I was afraid of, but the potential damage from channelling Sidious energy into Vaapad, if he gets it going in time. DE Sidious is dangerously dark and evil, to the point of killing himself with his own power.

Not sure what point you're making here. Sidious is in a faster, stronger, and younger body than ROTS. He also has an additional 30 years of studying the Darkside by DE. Him and Mace were more or less equal in the saber department in ROTS, and Sidious should logically be superior by DE.

Vaapad made Mace = Sidious. Vaapad + Shatterpoint made Mace > Sidious. And since this is a pure duel which negates the use of any 'exotic' force powers, it'd likely result in a perpetual stalemate.

That was ROTS Sidious. By DE, Sidious is much more powerful than earlier.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That was ROTS Sidious. By DE, Sidious is much more powerful than earlier. Which might make a difference if force powers were usable in this match. But since they aren't, Vaapad would work for Mace in the same manner here, as it did against RotS Sidious.

Why is that? Sidious' saber skill increased significantly as well.

^ Sidious was also far more dark/evil by the time of DE. Those emotions would only serve to increase the 'potency' of Vaapad.

But here is the question. Vaapad allowed Mace to simply reach ROTS Sidious levels not surpass it despite the fact that he had his own darkness plus Sidious's. So did Mace reach Vaapad's limit, as in he can't channel any more darkness, in his fight with Sidious or does it simply allow Mace to equal his opponent?

I doubt that Vapaad allows Mace to automatically equal any opponent. That would just be ghey

Originally posted by ares834
But here is the question. Vaapad allowed Mace to simply reach ROTS Sidious levels not surpass it despite the fact that he had his own darkness plus Sidious's. So did Mace reach Vaapad's limit, as in he can't channel any more darkness, in his fight with Sidious or does it simply allow Mace to equal his opponent? I guess you could say that Vaapad reached the limit of dark energy it could harness in that particular battle (hence the 'superconducting loop' which was formed.) However, don't let that confuse you into thinking that Vaapad has some sort of generalized 'cap' -- it doesn't (or at least such has never been stated.) Against an opponent as 'dark' as Sidious, it evidently fed off of dark energies until things balanced out. That's why this battle would likely result in a stalemate. Yes, Sidious was far more powerful by the time of DE, but he achieved said power by sinking further into the dark side. Ergo, Vaapad will have this additional dark energy feeding it. Balance.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I doubt that Vapaad allows Mace to automatically equal any opponent. That would just be ghey Against an opponent of the light, Mace can channel his own darkness and utilize it against them. Against a practitioner of the dark side, he can also channel their darkness.

ie. Vaapad gives Mace a HUGE advantage in ANY battle. Not saying it's insurmountable, but it IS exceedingly difficult to get around.

I don't see how DE Sidious would be > ROTS Sidious in sabers by a significant amount. Although he would be younger and more powerful in the Force, isn't he out of practice by several decades by now?

^ Yeah, I was thinking the most significant upgrade in his dueling skill would be increased speed/agility/etc. due to having a younger body. But his technique(s) likely stayed the same... Or may have even decreased, due to being out of practice for so many years (as you said.)

Hmmmm I thought it was the complete opposite. I thought he was out of practice during ROTS... but during the years preceding DE he was more in practice and becoming stronger and more in tune in many ways including saber combat.

More powerful with the force? Yes. More skilled with a lightsaber? Nah.

Think about it, Sidious likely didn't have a need to so much as pick up a lightsaber from the events of RotS, through his 'death' in RotJ. That right there accounts for a whole lot of years to be out of practice. Furthermore, the events of DE occur several years after RotJ. So yeah...

His skill with a saber is debatable. There just aren't enough sources between RotS and DE that depict in wielding one. At the very least though, we can say he didn't get any worse. If he's still the exact same, then Mace will once again beat him.

Of course if this is Sidious in a sparkly new clone body, then its youth will give him more of an edge.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
His skill with a saber is debatable. There just aren't enough sources between RotS and DE that depict in wielding one. At the very least though, we can say he didn't get any worse. If he's still the exact same, then Mace will once again beat him.

Of course if this is Sidious in a sparkly new clone body, then its youth will give him more of an edge. Yeah, since there's really no way to be sure whether his technical skills stayed the same or decreased over the years, I guess it's only fair to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that they stayed the same.

DE Sidious was more in tune with the dark side then he had ever been before. That increased darkness would only serve to empower Vaapad even more then in their last duel. So imo, the increased Vaapad-potency would essentially negate the advantages Sidious gains with a younger clone body, and we'd get a repeat of their battle in RotS.

Gideon can probably get the proper source and passage if he's at the appropriate parent's house, but the Ultimate Visual Guide?] notes that Palpatine cut down Kolar and Tiin "before knew what happened." It's arguable that unless he immediately begins a rapid descent into the depths of Vaapad, Palpatine circa ROTS could outspeed and kill him instantly.

A generation later, the Emperor's only going to be faster.

Before Mace had even began employing Vaapad, he was still able to defend himself against Sidious. I see no reason why he couldn't at least do that at the start, here.

...Though in a forum match, it seems like Mace kicking into 'Vaapad mode' right from the get-go would be a given..

srug

In rots wasn't sidious out of practice by 15 years or so? DE I assumed he had used his saber more so then he did rots.

Also in the op it states sidious and mace can use the force to buff themselves physically, ie speed, strength, reflexes etc. But nothing like lightening, illusiobs, or exotic powers ie shatterpoint.

If mace is allowed shatterpoint since I banned exotic force powers, I would allowed sidious force tk or lightening.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Yeah, I was thinking the most significant upgrade in his dueling skill would be increased speed/agility/etc. due to having a younger body. But his technique(s) likely stayed the same... Or may have even decreased, due to being out of practice for so many years (as you said.)

Not only does he have the increased speed, strength, and agility that his younger body offers him, he also has the increases that his immense increases in Force ability offer him. He also directly claimed that he had become more power in his time since dying.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Not only does he have the increased speed, strength, and agility that his younger body offers him, he also has the increases that his immense increases in Force ability offer him. He also directly claimed that he had become more power in his time since dying. Offensive force powers aren't applicable in this match, though. It's purely a duel.

If it were an 'all out' type of thing, then Sidious would stomp.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, since there's really no way to be sure whether his technical skills stayed the same or decreased over the years, I guess it's only fair to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that they stayed the same.


If you don't practice something, your skills in it generally diminish.

About a year or two ago, I used to believe that Mace would defeat any darksider in a duel. Examining that opinion, I conclude that it is retarded. Didn't Mace get his ass kicked by Kar Vastor, anyways? The movie shows us that Sidious was able to take on Fisto and Windu simultaneously in combat and force Windu back; he clearly had the upper hand, if only barely. I'm with Faunus. A reasonably powerful and skilled Force user definitely stands a chance of killing Windu, especially early in the fight.

If Sidious can "blitz" Windu, he'll win this without much of an issue. If he doesn't, then Windu will very likely win.



"Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade." -- the Complete Visual Dictionary, pg. 163.

Galan007
Offensive force powers aren't applicable in this match, though. It's purely a duel.

If it were an 'all out' type of thing, then Sidious would stomp.

no silly

Per Path of Destruction, it is ultimately all about an opponent's greater strength in the Force. A duelist possesses greater speed, agility, and precognition if he is more powerful in the Force. What Glentract is arguing is that Palpatine will already be physically faster than what he was when Mace fought him in Revenge of the Sith due to his younger body; but, in addition, he will also possess even greater ability with the Force with which to augment his physical characteristics.

Originally posted by Gideon
no silly

Per Path of Destruction, it is ultimately all about an opponent's greater strength in the Force. A duelist possesses greater speed, agility, and precognition if he is more powerful in the Force. What Glentract is arguing is that Palpatine will already be physically faster than what he was when Mace fought him in Revenge of the Sith due to his younger body; but, in addition, he will also possess even greater ability with the Force with which to augment his physical characteristics.

Force power/control isn't the only factor. Kas'im stated that a person skilled enough with a lightsaber could defeat someone more powerful in the Force.

Jackass, you're still on ignore.

'Could' being the key word. And I get the sense that he was more talking about cases like when he pulled out his duel style and started kicking ass. Bane didn't know how to counter it and got pwned; a case technical skill trumping power.

Originally posted by Gideon
"Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade." -- the Complete Visual Dictionary, pg. 163. In the novelization, Mace (pre-Vaapad immersion) was defending himself from Sidious when Kit was still alive. So he obviously knew something was happening.

Originally posted by Gideon
no silly

Per Path of Destruction, it is ultimately all about an opponent's greater strength in the Force. A duelist possesses greater speed, agility, and precognition if he is more powerful in the Force. What Glentract is arguing is that Palpatine will already be physically faster than what he was when Mace fought him in Revenge of the Sith due to his younger body; but, in addition, he will also possess even greater ability with the Force with which to augment his physical characteristics. It's because of that increased darkness that I think Vaapad could very likely 'pick up the slack' (so to speak) and equal things out.

@Gideon:

Funny, you want me to apologize to you, but if I'm on ignore, then how are you supposed to read it?




Originally posted by Nephthys
'Could' being the key word. And I get the sense that he was more talking about cases like when he pulled out his duel style and started kicking ass. Bane didn't know how to counter it and got pwned; a case technical skill trumping power.

Right. That's what Kas'im said.

I have no doubt. But a seasoned and capable warrior such as Mace was probably reacting on pure reflex there, likely not mentally processing that the feeble old man he intended to arrest is kicking the ass of his team of "celebrated swordsmen."

The fact remains, though, Windu was pushed back and on the defensive, despite Fisto's brief assistance. If he was equal to Palpatine at that moment, then that would have been enough to defeat the Sith.

I wonder if Sidious was building up his Force energies in preparation for the fight.

Originally posted by Gideon
I have no doubt. But a seasoned and capable warrior such as Mace was probably reacting on pure reflex there, likely not mentally processing that the feeble old man he intended to arrest is kicking the ass of his team of "celebrated swordsmen."

The fact remains, though, Windu was pushed back and on the defensive, despite Fisto's brief assistance. If he was equal to Palpatine at that moment, then that would have been enough to defeat the Sith. I didn't say that Mace was necessarily equal to Sidious at the very beginning. I just mentioned that despite Mace not yet actively employing Vaapad, he was still able to defend against Sidious' attacks.

I imagine vaapad has a limit, correlated with the user of it, of how much dark side energy it can conduct, channel. If Sidious is drowned in dark side energy to the point, where Vaapad channeling the maximum ammount that it can from both mace and sidious, is still less then Sidious ammount, I imagine Mace would be killed.

What I'm trying to say is, was Sidious so powerful and saturated in the dark side that he would be able to empower himself with it, more so then mace would be able to empower himself with his darkside+vaapad channeling a fraction of sidious power?

I read a quote some one stated, that it was by lumiya, that she and vader both had a limit of how much of the dark side they could utilize/channel? But that sidious had no limit? Thus theoritically

Sidious empowered by unlimited dark side energy >Mace empowered by his internal energy/darkness + fraction of sidious dark side energy due to vaapad

????

Vaapad absolutely has limits. Mace felt that Palpatine's Force lightning was "beyond Vaapad."

Originally posted by Board Walker
I imagine vaapad has a limit, correlated with the user of it, of how much dark side energy it can conduct, channel. If Sidious is drowned in dark side energy to the point, where Vaapad channeling the maximum ammount that it can from both mace and sidious, is still less then Sidious ammount, I imagine Mace would be killed.

What I'm trying to say is, was Sidious so powerful and saturated in the dark side that he would be able to empower himself with it, more so then mace would be able to empower himself with his darkside+vaapad channeling a fraction of sidious power?

I read a quote some one stated, that it was by lumiya, that she and vader both had a limit of how much of the dark side they could utilize/channel? But that sidious had no limit? Thus theoritically

Sidious empowered by unlimited dark side energy >Mace empowered by his internal energy/darkness + fraction of sidious dark side energy due to vaapad

????

What? Since when does Sidious have "unlimited dark side energy"?

Originally posted by Gideon
Vaapad absolutely has limits. Mace felt that Palpatine's Force lightning was "beyond Vaapad." ...Yet after that statement was made, Mace still continued blocking teh lightning until Sidious was fried.

Galan007
...Yet after that statement was made, Mace still continued blocking teh lightning until Sidious was fried.

?

Mace made that statement and, right after, Sidious stopped shooting the lightning.

Right?

You're not trying to twist things here, are you? This ain't a courtroom son.

^ Nah, it wasn't right after. That statement was made, then Sids kept up with the lightning for a bit, then he was fried, then he 'gave up.'

^ Post ze excerpt plz.

Edit: Wait, wait, wait. Wait. No, wait. Stop, hold on. Wait. Wait, damnit!

...What about "Anakin, he's too strong for me"? Did Palpatine stop shooting after that?

In the jungle, without a lightsaber and a chunk of his leg missing.

And I believe an excerpt from his duel with Palpatine indicates that his Vaapad evolved as a result of his sojourn on Haruun Kal.

yes...

E
In the jungle, without a lightsaber and a chunk of his leg missing.

And I believe an excerpt from his duel with Palpatine indicates that his Vaapad evolved as a result of his sojourn on Haruun Kal.

yes...

Doesn't he mention how he could never win, even on his best day?

Nice try.

Is sidious more of a juyo practioner or a niman practioner?

Originally posted by Board Walker
Is sidious more of a juyo practioner or a niman practioner?

Probably Juyo.

Gideon
Doesn't he mention how he could never win, even on his best day?

Nice try.
That would mean what you want it to mean if you took it completely out of context.





suck it.

Originally posted by Gideon
^ Post ze excerpt plz.

Edit: Wait, wait, wait. Wait. No, wait. Stop, hold on. Wait. Wait, damnit!

...What about "Anakin, he's too strong for me"? Did Palpatine stop shooting after that? Yeah, he stopped a bit after that line. Here's the whole excerpt...

"This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease-""

lol at TJ talking about MINDOR before Faunus read it. (clicked the link)

^^ Thar u go

Are you sucking it?

no

Yes.

Yes you are.

SHE KISSED HIM WHILE HE WAS AWAKE!

You still are tho

no

R u finished?

What did I say about Mindor? I don't think i've mentioned it in many moons?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why is that? Sidious' saber skill increased significantly as well.
Sidious probably hadn't held a lightsaber in about 30 years, and he didn't seem all that skilled to me in his two duels with Luke during DE. A Luke who was still a relative noob with a lightsaber at this time.

I agree with Galan's argument.






Gideon, I can't believe you're still around. I would've expected you to be a big shot lawyer by now or something, too busy picking apart holes in legal contracts to worry about this. Cool, though.

The same was thought about Nai five years ago.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sidious probably hadn't held a lightsaber in about 30 years, and he didn't seem all that skilled to me in his two duels with Luke during DE.


Yes, because his moves looked unpracticed and unpolished in that comic book.

Originally posted by truejedi
Yes, because his moves looked unpracticed and unpolished in that comic book.
I am happy to see you agreeing with me.

Actually, En, I'm not sure that he is agreeing with you at all. The words are in italics, which sometimes means that someone is not telling the truth. I thought you should know, since I am so often confused by this very practice.

In this case, it seems very likely that TJ is not actually agreeing with you, because it is difficult to tell whether moves look "unpracticed" or "unpolished" in a comic book. The issue is open to interpretation even more than is the film-material, since only snapshots of action can be shown. Outside information becomes much more important in these cases.

Some outside information about Sidious during the time period in question includes:

He no longer needs to hide his Sith Identity through the Force from the Jedi
He can no longer predict to fight a lightsaber-wielding foe, as most of them have been killed

From these data we can draw some conclusions. Some of the conclusions we could draw include:

Sidious is now free to maintain his martial combat abilities.
Sidious no longer has a motive to maintain his martial combat abilities.

It is likely then, that Sidious is is much the same position that he was at during the events of Star Wars Episode Three: Revenge of the Sith; he will continue to be a particularly deadly swordsman, especially when his immense Force Mastery is brought to bear. This can be seen on film; Sidious remains deadly after decades without practice. There is no reason for this to have changed, even though the number of years has increased. However, his technical skill is not likely to have improved. There is no reason for him to continue maintenance on that ability. (I remember one characterization, perhaps by Blank101, that included an active disdain for the weapon as a tool of his now-defeated enemy.)

None of this, however, is enough to conclude that Darth Sidious will be in a weaker position during this fight with Mace Windu than during the aforementioned film. During the fight in the Chancellor's office against Windu, Sidious had the disadvantage of decades away from the blade. This will not have changed substantially, so no decline can be found through this factor. During that fight, Sidious also had to deal with a superior number of combatants. Indeed, the time he took dispatching those other three Masters (scant though it may have been) allowed Windu to "sink into Vaapad" (Ep. III Novelization) and put the Jedi Master in a position to win the battle. Sidious will not have distractions in this fight.

There are other ways in which the DE incarnation of Sidious is actually in a stronger position than his former self. He is no longer burdened with an aging body; vim and vigor have both been restored by way of the clone's youth. This may be incredibly important (or not) depending on how the "superconducting loop" is evaluated. If, as you yourself agreed (several years ago) it only allows Windu to match Sidious' Force Buffs then the physical restoration becomes very important indeed: as Sidious uses less power to become physically able to fight, Mace's unique metaphysical gifts will help him less.

What we are left with, then, is an Emperor restored to the exuberance of youth and freed of the obligation to call on the Force to endure a fight. Though his technical abilities may not have improved, they will not have diminished much since their last usage. These two factors combine to deny Windu his most important advantage: Vaapad's metaphysical superconducting loop. An Emperor with more advantages and fewer disadvantages cannot help but to win this.

see, i often use italics to be facetious. I rarely use them when i'm seriously disparaging someone. In that case, i use bold. In this case, I was trying to make a litty bitty funny.

Tj, chill out. I was being flippant. Look at this:



By maintaining that naive viewpoint I am able to point out Enyalus' own use of irony and be a helper at the same time.

It's okay, Eny... I get your humor. sadhug

obviously RN. I was trying to be flippant too by explaining! i wanted to play too!!! and now you hurt my feelings.

sadwalk

I challenge you to a duel.

Also, you aren't a helper anymore, so THERE!!!

Originally posted by truejedi
obviously RN. I was trying to be flippant too by explaining! i wanted to play too!!! and now you hurt my feelings.

sadwalk

I challenge you to a duel.

Also, you aren't a helper anymore, so THERE!!!
Let's D-D-D-D-DDDDDDDDDDDDDUEL

I am too a helper. I am the helpfulest helper on KMC. I promise!

Enyalus
Gideon, I can't believe you're still around. I would've expected you to be a big shot lawyer by now or something, too busy picking apart holes in legal contracts to worry about this. Cool, though.

....You do realize I'm only 19, right?

And therefore has not rid himself of his heart of glass. You need a heart of poly fiber to face the courts.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's okay, Eny... I get your humor. sadhug
Haha, why thank you, Galan. You always understand me. And may I say, I am pleasantly surprised to see you in the SW Forum. I never had the talent to balance reading comics and Star Wars at the same time while maintaining some semblance of a life - I had to choose one or the other.
Originally posted by Gideon
....You do realize I'm only 19, right?
I just think that highly of you.



And even though I realize RN's use of irony and think it particularly amusing, I feel compelled to nitpick and point out that "It is likely then, that Sidious is is much the same position that he was at during the events of Star Wars Episode Three: Revenge of the Sith; he will continue to be a particularly deadly swordsman, especially when his immense Force Mastery is brought to bear. This can be seen on film; Sidious remains deadly after decades without practice" isn't exactly accurate, considering he was training Maul in presumably all seven lightsaber forms less than fifteen years before ROTS unfolds. What does this mean? Well naturally, that:

Eny: 1 - RN: 0.

Actually En, we use plurals when the quantity is more than one. One and a half is more than one. "I have one and a half glasses of human blood in my freezer" requires that the word 'glasses' be pluralized in order to have number-agreement with 'one and a half.'

Eny: -1 RN: 2

I win.

Fourteen years does not constitute 'decades' in a plural sense to me, and English be damned if it says otherwise!

RN
I win.

Actually... you might not win, because I'm not certain that the comparison you provided is sufficient. A decade is defined (through a quick Google search) as "a period of ten years." Therefore, in order for decades to be used, there must be at least twenty years in question. One and a half glasses is not an appropriate comparison because the second glass does not have to be completely full for it to be a glass, whereas a decade must be ten years.

Gideon you are twisting the sense of the unit of measure in question. When someone says that they drink eight glasses of water a day then they are not indicating that eight containers of glass were liquefied and then consumed. Rather, the contents of the glasses is what is in question, so the analogy holds for as far as we need to carry it. Even if it did not, however, my point would still hold as the concept of fractions as plural entities carries into other units of measure. Look:

"One and one half inches " sounds much better than "one and one half inch" when trying to describe the length of a centipede.




I do see how the use of the word "decades" could be seen as excessive hyperbole, so I would be content to restrain myself to "years at a time," which, incidentally, also applies to Ulic Qel-Droma, who maintained exceptional technical skill after a similar number of years.






En: -1 Gid: 0 RN: 2

Another small correction, RN:
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
En: ∞-1 Gid: 0 RN: 2
Fixed.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I am too a helper. I am the helpfulest helper on KMC. I promise!

Liar.

RN
I do see how the use of the word "decades" could be seen as excessive hyperbole, so I would be content to restrain myself to "years at a time," which, incidentally, also applies to Ulic Qel-Droma, who maintained exceptional technical skill after a similar number of years.

no

A decade constitutes a period of ten years; in order for decade to be pluralized adequately, a period of at least twenty years must be in question. Your comparisons are inadequate; one and a half glasses is acceptable because a glass does not have to be completely full of liquid in order for it remain a glass and you clarified with the qualifier "half." The same goes for the inch comparison.

You weren't precise at all with your sentence about Sidious and his decades without practice. "Sidious remains deadly after decades without practice" should have been "Sidious remains deadly after more than a decade without practice."

Your failure is complete.

I must deduct ~1 billion points.

Very well. Negative one billion points are deducted.

En: infinity-1 Gid: 0 RN: 1,000,000,002

I DIDNT SAY NEGATIVE U R A LIAR N I NO LIKE U

prove it.

Originally posted by Gideon
....You do realize I'm only 19, right?

I turned 19 last Sunday! Hurray!

I feel so old. Srsly, 21 is old compared to most of you.

23. : (

DUSTY OLD BONES FILLED WITH GREEN DUST

It's rather strange that Sidious apparently no longer feels that he has a motive to keep up his lightsaber training after ROTS (although this may be a little speculation) when Yoda, Obi Wan and a bunch of other Jedi are still alive.

Although Sidious still probably would have lost even if he kept up his lightsaber training.

Originally posted by truejedi
23. : (

Old timer.

Originally posted by truejedi
23. : (

Ha!

if its just lightsabers then Windu wins. . . . .



FATALITY

Originally posted by RazorMesias
if its just lightsabers then Windu wins.

QFT

Originally posted by Enyalus
Haha, why thank you, Galan. You always understand me. And may I say, I am pleasantly surprised to see you in the SW Forum. I never had the talent to balance reading comics and Star Wars at the same time while maintaining some semblance of a life - I had to choose one or the other.



Galan is just that good eny. Welcome back buddy

Originally posted by Enyalus
Haha, why thank you, Galan. You always understand me. And may I say, I am pleasantly surprised to see you in the SW Forum. I never had the talent to balance reading comics and Star Wars at the same time while maintaining some semblance of a life - I had to choose one or the other. Meh, a pregnant wife doesn't need that much attention. wink1

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Galan is just that good eny. Welcome back buddy Boy, have I got you fooled. excellent

Originally posted by Galan007
Meh, a pregnant wife doesn't need that much attention. wink1
Uh oh. A mini Galan. I'm a bit scared at the thought. On the other hand, congrats!

Pretty much what I said... Ooo and you best get him into comics so he'll really be a mini Galan

Originally posted by Enyalus
Uh oh. A mini Galan. I'm a bit scared at the thought. On the other hand, congrats! Thanks.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Pretty much what I said... Ooo and you best get him into comics so he'll really be a mini Galan It's a girl, but I'll see what I can do.

----

Anyhow... Stalemate!