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Whoa, this duel is terribly mismatched. Who do you think will win this engagment.

Same conditions:
1.) Saber
2.) Force
3.) All out

Location: Anakin Solo ship

I'd go with Caedus and Kenobi. Caedus could have ended his duel in a tie, and Kenobi is too smart to be defeated by the likes of Darth Vader.

Borderline spite. Team 2 wins.

Caedus beats Jaina and Obi Wan holds off Vader

or

Caedus beat Vader and Obi Wan beats Jaina.

Vader's an emotional wreck that fell rather easily to Kenobi's planning.

Caedus during his fight with Jaina was distracted and preoccupied with saving Tenel Ka and Allana. If he isn't then, Jaina's getting her butt whooped.


Even if you reverse the matchup, Caedus and Kenobi for the win.

Team 1 in what appears to be spite or at the least an epic stomp

Team 1. Caeuds can beat either AnnyVader or Jaina. Obi-Wan can beat Jaina and at the very least hold off Vader.

Caedus could possibly solo team 2.

Switch it to Force Unleashed Vader and it gets much closer and at least 5x more epic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Switch it to Force Unleashed Vader and it gets much closer and at least 5x more epic.

Caedus still beats Vader

Obi Wan still beats Jaina

I'd have to think more about that. Vader has far superior TK feats and probably better bladework than Caedus. It would be close. Jaina is about equal to Obi-Wan imo.

It would be a truly epic fight though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd have to think more about that. Vader has far superior TK feats and probably better bladework than Caedus. It would be close. Jaina is about equal to Obi-Wan imo.

It would be a truly epic fight though.

Caedus was stated on the inside flap of LOTF: Invincible (or at least the hardback to be more powerful in the Force than Vader.

How if Jaina about equal to Obi Wan? Even if so, Obi Wan's mastery of Soresu would allow him to hold off Jaina long enough for Caedus to beat Vader.

Power isn't everything. Sidious is thought to be the strongest Sith yet I'd put Bane and Nihilus above him in terms of TK feats. Abeloth is looking to be veeeeery powerful yet apparantly has zippo to let her contend with the top teir. Actualised power extends to facets of the Force, like FLightning, TK, mind-****ery etc not just overall.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Power isn't everything. Sidious is thought to be the strongest Sith yet I'd put Bane and Nihilus above him in terms of TK feats. Abeloth is looking to be veeeeery powerful yet apparantly has zippo to let her contend with the top teir. Actualised power extends to facets of the Force, like FLightning, TK, mind-****ery etc not just overall.

Force power: Caedus officially > Vader
Force control/skill: Debatable
Force techniques: Caedus knew a huge amount of Force techniques from across the galaxy that Vader didn't.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Caedus was stated on the inside flap of LOTF: Invincible (or at least the hardback to be more powerful in the Force than Vader.
These have never been canon. Many have been incorrect.

By how much? 1%? 0.0000000000001%? Yeah, just being termed as 'more powafulz' doesn't cut it for me. I prefer actual feats.



Feat-wise Vader is a power-house, and nothing Caedus has done has lead me to see him as being able to believe that he's that great in direct physical Force powers.



And how many of them will help him in a fight?

Anakin4Ever
Whoa, this duel is terribly mismatched. Who do you think will win this engagment.

Same conditions:
1.) Saber
2.) Force
3.) All out

Location: Anakin Solo ship

I'd go with Caedus and Kenobi. Caedus could have ended his duel in a tie, and Kenobi is too smart to be defeated by the likes of Darth Vader.
Pre-Mustafar Vader? Team two. Aside from swiftly and brutally crushing Dooku he actually manifests an appropriately tremendous command of the Force. Yes, it's canon.

If he's already insane, Caedus and Kenobi take it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
By how much? 1%? 0.0000000000001%? Yeah, just being termed as 'more powafulz' doesn't cut it for me. I prefer actual feats.



It probably was by a significant enough amount so that it was worth mentioning. Either way, Caedus has the edge in this category.



Caedus was capable of creating illusions that sometimes even fooled Luke and was capable of severing Ben from the Force.



Shatterpoint
Force phasing objects
Force lightning (not really an obscure Force technique in SW, but Vader can't use it)
Flow walking (Jysella in FOTJ: Omen later uses it in a combat scenario)

Originally posted by Eminence
Pre-Mustafar Vader? Team two. Aside from swiftly and brutally crushing Dooku he actually manifests an appropriately tremendous command of the Force. Yes, it's canon.

If he's already insane, Caedus and Kenobi take it.

Caedus would still be superior to Vader and Obi Wan would still be > or = Jaina.

Screw it. You're staying on ignore and I'm not arguing with you anymore. Its just irritating to fiddle around with the f'ing thing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Screw it. You're staying on ignore and I'm not arguing with you anymore. Its just irritating to fiddle around with the f'ing thing.

...

Seriously? What I said was completely valid and logical.

You. Are. On. Ignore.

You can't call me up on ignoring your argument when I've made it clear I don't want to talk to you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You. Are. On. Ignore.

You can't call me up on ignoring your argument when I've made it clear I don't want to talk to you.

What did I do? We were just having a debate on Caedus vs Vader. WHAT DID I DO WRONG?

Your mum.

@Nephthys

When your only response is that, you're pretty much admitting that you have no justification to your actions. Did Gideon bribe you or something?

Maybe I should just post yo mamma jokes until he realises that I'm not actually looking at his posts. Maybe then he will figure out what exactly putting someone on ignore is.


'Yo mama so stupid that she puts lipstick on her head just to make-up her mind'

Neph, don't try and fill Knightfall's shoes. The resident jackass has been temporarily removed from service, and the position shall remain vacated until his return.

Yes mother. disgust

Originally posted by Nephthys
Switch it to Force Unleashed Vader and it gets much closer and at least 5x more epic.

You mean in terms of the Force or in terms of lightsaber battling?

I think Jaina isn't being given enough credit here. She did beat Cadeus after all. Say what you want about him being distracted, but it doesn't change the fact that she one. The whole Sword of the Jedi thing is pretty gay, but she is dangerous. She was the one who defeated Warmaster Lah and she has shown extreme levels of control with the Force, being able to rub air molecules together when she and Jacen were Brakiss' prisoners. Although she specializes more as a fighter pilot and mechanic than Jacen, she's still able to hold her own in combat. I wouldn't be surprised if she could defeat Obi-wan.

^

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I think Jaina isn't being given enough credit here. She did beat Cadeus after all. Say what you want about him being distracted, but it doesn't change the fact that she one. The whole Sword of the Jedi thing is pretty gay, but she is dangerous. She was the one who defeated Warmaster Lah and she has shown extreme levels of control with the Force, being able to rub air molecules together when she and Jacen were Brakiss' prisoners. Although she specializes more as a fighter pilot and mechanic than Jacen, she's still able to hold her own in combat. I wouldn't be surprised if she could defeat Obi-wan.

I thought that Corran Horn killed Lah? guess its been too long for me to remember correctly. I agree with you on Jaina, she is often under-rated. She is, in my opinion, of master status in the LOTF.

One thing though: Caedus was more than distracted in his first duel with Jaina. He didn't even know she was there until late in the fight. Luke made it a two on 1 fight. Luke wasn't physically there, but his solid force-projection (like alema kept using to attack leia with) could have killed Caedus. Though Caedus never grasped that Luke wasn't actually there, he still had to FIGHT with that projection while fighting Jaina, or it could have killed him too.

truejedi
I thought that Corran Horn killed Lah?
Jaina killed him with her legs tied together.


No, Luke "projected" his image onto Jaina; he wasn't actually in the fight.

Jaina definitely won it. She used a lot of unorthodox ability to make up for her lack of raw power against Jacen, but it worked then and I see no reason that it wouldn't continue to work against other opponents. TJ, I agree, she should be a master by this point. She'd beat more than half of them in a 1v1 fight.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jaina definitely won it. She used a lot of unorthodox ability to make up for her lack of raw power against Jacen, but it worked then and I see no reason that it wouldn't continue to work against other opponents. TJ, I agree, she should be a master by this point. She'd beat more than half of them in a 1v1 fight.

You mean in their first fight or their second?

In the first Jaina vs Caedus fight Luke was amping Jaina.

In the second Jaina vs Caedus fight Caedus was distracted and, at the end, didn't defend himself from Jaina's final blow.

The final blow left her open to counter-attack. Jacen was going to die either way; it was unavoidable for him. He just chose not to take her down with him.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The final blow left her open to counter-attack. Jacen was going to die either way; it was unavoidable for him. He just chose not to take her down with him.

Why couldn't Caedus block the blow?

It's clearly stated that Jaina went for broke and decided to use a strike that was guaranteed to kill Jacen but in the process left her completely open to counter-attack if Jacen had wanted. She thought they would both be killed, but he chose not to kill her, aka, the redemption just before his death.

Jaina is good but not that good. Sure she beat Caedus but that was because he was one-armed, distracted, and she got a cheap strike by stabbing him in the gut before it even began. Yet still her only chance was a sucidal move at the end. In fact at the begining Caedus is cleary superior. As for the first fight Luke is clealy amping her. The books says, "Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything."
and later on when the Luke leaves her "Then Jaina experienced an abrupt draining as her Force energies returned to their normal level. Suddenly she felt cold, tired, and in pain, and she barely had the strength to hold her lightsaber as it flicked back and forth, batting away blaster bolts."

Hmmm, could that be the trance thing Kenobi does though? When he goes all zen in the ROTS novel?

'This is Obi-Wan Kenobi in the light:

As he is prodded onto the bridge along with Anakin and Chancellor Palpatine, he has no need to look around to see the banks of control consoles tended by terrified Neimoidians. He doesn't have to turn his head to count the droidekas and super battle droids, or to gauge the positions of the brutal droid bodyguards. He doesn't bother to raise his eyes to meet the cold yellow stare fixed on him through a skull-mask of armorplast. He doesn't even need to reach into the Force. He has already let the Force reach into him. The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. The part of him that calls itself Obi-Wan Kenobi is no more than a ripple, an eddy in the pool into which he endlessly pours.'

Probably not, but an interesting thought nontheless, and there doesn't seem to be any proof that Luke was aiding her and idk why they'd make it so vague if he was.

Could Caedus even beat "crystal clear" Anakin in sabers?

Hells to the yeah. Caedus is at least a Dooku, maybe a Bane level duelist, he'd beat Anakin imo.

Originally posted by Eminence
Jaina killed him with her legs tied together.



Okay. Who was it horn killed then? that made him leave the order for a bit? Shadoi or something?


acknowledged. Just went and re-read that. Good call. Now what was the point of that do you think? I mean, it saved her life right after fight ended, because he was looking around for luke instead of killing her, but still... Unless Luke knew there was going to be a lull in the fighting just like that, there was no point.

Originally posted by truejedi


acknowledged. Just went and re-read that. Good call. Now what was the point of that do you think? I mean, it saved her life right after fight ended, because he was looking around for luke instead of killing her, but still... Unless Luke knew there was going to be a lull in the fighting just like that, there was no point.

Jaina being amped by Luke was far more powerful than Jaina typically was. Hence why Jaina felt like she could punch a hole through durasteel and catch a blaster bolt between her fingers (I wonder if those were hyperbole) and felt a sudden draining when Luke stopped amping her.

hm. So BM. I don't think that was ever stated though.

The book states that she fealt more powerful than ever, more intune with the force than ever. But when Luke leaves Jaina it tehn states Jaina returned to her normal levels. Sure Denning didn't come straight out and say "lolz Luke was amping Jaina" but said it in a more ambigious way.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hells to the yeah. Caedus is at least a Dooku, maybe a Bane level duelist, he'd beat Anakin imo.

If Caedus was a Dooku, Anakin would be able to beat him.
Caedus can probably beat Anakin though. He did live longer as a mostly organic being.

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
If Caedus was a Dooku, Anakin would be able to beat him.
Caedus can probably beat Anakin though. He did live longer as a mostly organic being.

Caedus stood up to Luke in a lightsaber duel. He is > Dooku.

Caedus was stated on the inside flap of LOTF: Invincible to have a greater command of the Force than Vader.

Caedus tools Vader while Obi Wan holds off (he is VERY good at Soresu) or defeats Jaina.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Caedus was stated on the inside flap of LOTF: Invincible to have a greater command of the Force than Vader.
As I already said these are not canon. Many of them contradict their own stories take RoT for example. It claims Darth Bane is the "last surviving Sith" despite the fact that eight surving sith appear later on in the novel the Umbaran Shadow Assassins. And that's just one example.
Another novel Specter of the Past says the Empire had "an invincible armada of Star Destroyers" which is obviously false, says "lurking in the shadows is the enigmatic Major Tierce, a disciple of Emperor Palpatine" which is false as he is a dead but a clone is alive yet he was never a "disciple of Emperor Palpatine" and it says the Empire "saved their most heinous plan for last" this is not their most henious plan nor is it their last... The simple fact is countless of these contradict the actual source material. ANother thing is they have never been stated to be canon anywhere, yes novels are but not the publisher's summary which has the goal to make you a person want to buy the novel and thus they supp it up.

i agree with that actually. the summaries are deigned to intrigue you into reading the novel, and they have a very frequent habit of using hyperbole and flat out lies, to get you interested.

honestly, if the only source that states that caedus is = vader is the inside flap of a novel, id argue that it isnt to be trusted

Originally posted by ares834
As I already said these are not canon. Many of them contradict their own stories take RoT for example. It claims Darth Bane is the "last surviving Sith" despite the fact that eight surving sith appear later on in the novel the Umbaran Shadow Assassins. And that's just one example.
Another novel Specter of the Past says the Empire had "an invincible armada of Star Destroyers" which is obviously false, says "lurking in the shadows is the enigmatic Major Tierce, a disciple of Emperor Palpatine" which is false as he is a dead but a clone is alive yet he was never a "disciple of Emperor Palpatine" and it says the Empire "saved their most heinous plan for last" this is not their most henious plan nor is it their last... The simple fact is countless of these contradict the actual source material. ANother thing is they have never been stated to be canon anywhere, yes novels are but not the publisher's summary which has the goal to make you a person want to buy the novel and thus they supp it up.

No, Book covers ARE canon as well, UNLESS, they are contradicted by the story (like your examples.) Leland Chee's call. He has the authority to call them Canon if he wants.

And I just looked up Grodin Tierce. He was a Royal Guard. Ego: disciple of Palpatine.

Originally posted by truejedi
No, Book covers ARE canon as well, UNLESS, they are contradicted by the story (like your examples.) Leland Chee's call. He has the authority to call them Canon if he wants.
Really. Where does he state this? NOt saying I don't believe you I'm just curious.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And I just looked up Grodin Tierce. He was a Royal Guard. Ego: disciple of Palpatine.
Grodin Tierce is. But not his clone, who was cloned after Palps death, which is what the novel is talking about as he is the one "lurking in the shadows". The real Tierce died long ago.

You would have to get it from Gideon. He was kind enough to link it too me once upon a time.

Originally posted by ares834
As I already said these are not canon. Many of them contradict their own stories take RoT for example. It claims Darth Bane is the "last surviving Sith" despite the fact that eight surving sith appear later on in the novel the Umbaran Shadow Assassins. And that's just one example.
Another novel Specter of the Past says the Empire had "an invincible armada of Star Destroyers" which is obviously false, says "lurking in the shadows is the enigmatic Major Tierce, a disciple of Emperor Palpatine" which is false as he is a dead but a clone is alive yet he was never a "disciple of Emperor Palpatine" and it says the Empire "saved their most heinous plan for last" this is not their most henious plan nor is it their last... The simple fact is countless of these contradict the actual source material. ANother thing is they have never been stated to be canon anywhere, yes novels are but not the publisher's summary which has the goal to make you a person want to buy the novel and thus they supp it up.

Well, that statement about Darth Bane being the last surviving sith was written before the FOTJ series. And Umbraran Shadow Assassins aren't considered to be true sith lords.

The phrase "invincible" armada is clearly hyperbole in this case.

Again, a lot of what you mentioned was either written before the source that contradicted it or a figure of speech.

You do have a point though. Still, that statement about Caedus being > Vader hasn't been contradicted yet. And Caedus is indeed more powerful than Vader even if you go by feats.

Originally posted by ares834
Grodin Tierce is. But not his clone, who was cloned after Palps death, which is what the novel is talking about as he is the one "lurking in the shadows". The real Tierce died long ago. Did the flap say the clone specifically was a disciple?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Well, that statement about Darth Bane being the last surviving sith was written before the FOTJ series. And Umbraran Shadow Assassins aren't considered to be true sith lords.
Perhaps. But they were trained at the Umbraran Sith Academy, sure they are not Sith Lords, but I would think they are indeed sith.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Did the flap say the clone specifically was a disciple?
Sorta. It says "All the while, lurking in the shadows is the enigmatic Major Tierce, a disciple of Emperor Palpatine". The true Tierce died long before this novel so he could not be the one lurking in the shadows. Therefore it must be his clone. Granted we don't learn he is a clone untill the second novel.

Originally posted by ares834
Sorta. It says "All the while, lurking in the shadows is the enigmatic Major Tierce, a disciple of Emperor Palpatine". The true Tierce died long before this novel so he could not be the one lurking in the shadows. Therefore it must be his clone. Granted we don't learn he is a clone untill the second novel. Well it wouldn't help the intrigue to give that away now, would it? Imagine the cover of the Sixth Sense:


"All the while, lurking in the shadows, Haley Joel Osment aka, Keyser Soze."

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Caedus stood up to Luke in a lightsaber duel. He is > Dooku.

Caedus was stated on the inside flap of LOTF: Invincible to have a greater command of the Force than Vader.

Caedus tools Vader while Obi Wan holds off (he is VERY good at Soresu) or defeats Jaina.

Yeah, hence my statement that Caedus would beat Vader. But let's be honest he was trained since he was like 5. Caedus is pretty bad@$$.

TJ
You would have to get it from Gideon. He was kind enough to link it too me once upon a time.

I don't know what you're talking about, actually. I'm unfamiliar with any statement from Leland Chee about the validity of the flaps and backs of novelizations. If anything, Ares is pretty convincing here.

In the publishing world, a book flap is designed to be over the top. In fact, as part of the manuscript submission process, any writer is required to write their own dust jacket blurb to prove they can pitch their story.

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't know what you're talking about, actually. I'm unfamiliar with any statement from Leland Chee about the validity of the flaps and backs of novelizations. If anything, Ares is pretty convincing here.

We were discussing the validity of quotes from the Star Wars role-playing game, and you gave me a link where he points out that EVERYTHING is canon, unless it is overruled elsewhere by other canon, including things so mundane as packaging.

I'd need to see that link.

Originally posted by Autokrat
In the publishing world, a book flap is designed to be over the top. In fact, as part of the manuscript submission process, any writer is required to write their own dust jacket blurb to prove they can pitch their story.

The quote I mentioned earlier is still canon though, and Caedus is also > Vader based on feats.

You do realise that simply stating that somethings canon doesn't actually make it canon, right?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You do realise that simply stating that somethings canon doesn't actually make it canon, right?

It was stated on the inside flap of the hardcover version of LOTF: Invincible (I'd guess that it would be on the back cover of the paperback version of LOTF: Invincible as well). SW books that aren't what-if scenarios are considered to be canon. The inside flap of a book (if the book has one) is part of the book. And again, feat wise Caedus is still > Vader.

Well:


http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/4



and what is everything else?

Well, from his very next entry:


http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=0

That would require that dust jackets be considered part of the EU in the sense that they are actually story material that is part of canon besides being what is essentially a sales pitch.

That's what I was saying. Maybe i got the link from Ares instead of Gideon, and perhaps this wasn't even it. I just googled this one and found it in like 5 minutes.