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they are gonna fight to try to kill the other one of them.

you think?

edit- youre not really truejedi are you?

Bane tries to kill Sidious by using the Force and maybe his lightsaber, this while Sids tries to kill Bane... by using the Force and maybe his own lightsaber. They will probably do this in some sort of combat type of situation. One of them will probably die, maybe both of them when fatal wounds are inflicted during the killing of the other one, this is just an assumption though. Causes of death will unlikely be old age, AIDS or drowning... although this last one may occur if the vicinity includes open spaces of water. When one of the combatants has the higher ground, they will have a significant advantage (leaping causes death). This scenario will have a high ratio percentage of limb losing, most likely the left hand or the right. Limb losing will have a low blood percentage.

But this is all just my own personal potential observation of the fight.

Slash, that is maybe the best thing i've ever read. ROFL. (which means I am smirking, and made that snorting noise twice while reading it.) I was serious about the thread though, I just didn't want to go into great detail on the OP, opting instead for the poor grammar, low intelligence approach.

Well, if I say that Sidious would win, I'd probably get a lot of Nebs attacking me. If I say that Bane would win, some Gideons will attack me.

I'd actually go with the second though. Sidious being called the most powerfull Sith and all that.

stalemate anyone?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
you think?

edit- youre not really truejedi are you?
His profile checks out. I think the lack of sleep (no one sleeps for a week after communing with Into the Storm) is getting to him.

Sidious is more powerful than Bane according to multiple sources BUT in this case Bane has the external orbalisks to amp him, which pretty much protects >90% of his entire body and pumps aldrenaline into his body as well. Bane can also use parts of his body to block Sidious's strikes.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bane won a strictly lightsaber duel, but in the Force and all out Sidious wins.

Well, this isn't Sidious at his peak. Orbalisks do make Bane a TOUGH target to kill. Sidious might have to fry him, but I don't know if he could overwhelm Bane's ability to block lightning. (with his lightsaber, or hands for that matter)

at RN: Thanks for vouching for me... I was trying to be funny with my OP though...

I chuckled at the OP. It was the Poll that had me worried.

Well, the vote is 4-4. This warrants further discussion. I'm really not sure. Anyone feel strongly on the subject? Do the "Most powerful of all time" statements include Sidious as of ROTS? And do they take into account the period of Bane's life where he is having his power amped by Orbalisks?

I voted Sidious. For obvious reasons.

Yes, they include Sidious as of ROTS, one of the quotes is from his dance with Yoda.

They're almost equal in everything, with the orbalisk boost neutralising any lead Sidious has over him if we are to take him as 'most strongerist' imo. Sidious' mind-****ery+5 wasn't enough to win over Marek and Bane displayed heavy resistance to it with Kaan, so I doubt he'd have any luck there. I'd give it to Bane purely becuase he has more impressive TK feats, but its still a furious duel.

just read the Yoda duel again: I didn't see anything about ROTS sidious being the most powerful sith lord ever.

We do have the "Most devestatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" for Yoda, but Bane with orbalisks wasn't beaten by a lightsider (or beaten, for that matter) so Yoda can't be used to measure sidious over Bane there.

"Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

-The New Essential Chronology, page 84

okay, and I am even willing to take that at face value that it is talking about it during that time period.

Orbalisks make much of a difference for Bane?

Yes, imo.

I haven't voted yet.

Oh, and TJ?Originally posted by truejedi
okay, and I am even willing to take that at face value that it is talking about it during that time period.

Orbalisks make much of a difference for Bane?
read:
Originally posted by Cryo
"Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

-The New Essential Chronology, page 84
Where does it say anything about time period?

The words "in history" used to refer to a certain period. You know... every period.

Sidious.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I haven't voted yet.

Oh, and TJ?
read:

Where does it say anything about time period?

i meant ROTS sidious as opposed to DE sidious. nut i was accepting it regardless and without further argument.

I feel like I'm going to go with Bane here. Sidious might be more powerful overall, but those Orbalisks are a hell of an advantage. They amp his Force powers and they amp his bladework and Sidious will have to work really hard to score a hit of any kind.

Intuition says Bane after a struggle.

They completely heal him unless Sidious's first strike is lethal too, even healing a severed tendon in seconds. That's tough to face. He absorbed the power of 12 force pikes all at once too, so Sidious's might need to get in a completely unblocked shot before he can have the same effect that Bane's "bubble" did.

Just a tough fight to win, no question that Sidious is the more knowledgeable, powerful Sith, just wondering if he can take this lightsaber battle.

Imo, Sidious' raw speed would be the deciding factor in a lightsaber battle -- as it would likely be sufficient to deliver a nigh-instant lethal blow, before Bane had a chance to do much of anything.

Bane displayed quite possibly the greatest feat of speed we've thus far seen in the mythos when he was still a student with the Brotherhood of Darkness (moving faster than the eyes of trained Force Users (Kas'im among their number) could see). He's skyrocketed in power several times over since. There's absolutely no reason to think that Sidious even comes close to him in this regard, let alone superior enough to for it to be a determining factor in a fight between the two of them.

except for, you know, the fact that sideous has already moved so fast that he managed to not just move, but kill, three of the most skilled and gifted jedi in the order's entire multi-thousand year old order, so quickly that mace "second most BAMF in the order's entire history" windu "didn't even know what happened" or something equivalent, until it was already over.

case in point, banes little speed feats got shit all on sideous'


that aside, the idea that moving faster then there eyes could follow is irrelevent because force users dont fight using their eyes anyway. do you think they need to "see" blaster bolts to deflect them?

Bane would have replicated that feat if it wasn't for the Battle meditation.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
except for, you know, the fact that sideous has already moved so fast that he managed to not just move, but kill, three of the most skilled and gifted jedi in the order's entire multi-thousand year old order, so quickly that mace "second most BAMF in the order's entire history" windu "didn't even know what happened" or something equivalent, until it was already over.

case in point, banes little speed feats got shit all on sideous'


that aside, the idea that moving faster then there eyes could follow is irrelevent because force users dont fight using their eyes anyway. do you think they need to "see" blaster bolts to deflect them?


...On top of that, if we are going to use "he was moving so fast that couldn't see them" arguments as any sort of 'baseline' for speed, then it's also worth noting that Anakin couldn't even perceive Sidious when he was battling Mace. In fact, Anakin initially referred to Sidious only as "a thickening black haze that appeared to be fading in and out of existence."

So yeah...

However, to say that Sidious is just going to move so fast that he is ableto kill someone of Bane's ability without a fight is a little ridiculous. Mace and Yoda both were able to match Sidious's speed.

Also, Saesee and Kolar have only a single narrator quote to establish their "most skilled" swordsbeings. Anoon Bondara also had one quote that established himself as THE MOST skilled duelist, and he lost to Maul.

Originally posted by truejedi
However, to say that Sidious is just going to move so fast that he is ableto kill someone of Bane's ability without a fight is a little ridiculous. Mace and Yoda both were able to match Sidious's speed. Mace had Vaapad, and Yoda was the most skilled swordsman of the era (possibly ever.)

Regardless, I'm not saying that Sidious would be able to 'blitz' Bane without a fight. I am just saying that in a pure lightsaber battle, Sidious' speed would probably be the biggest deciding factor in his victory (or lack thereof.)

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
except for, you know, the fact that sideous has already moved so fast that he managed to not just move, but kill, three of the most skilled and gifted jedi in the order's entire multi-thousand year old order, so quickly that mace "second most BAMF in the order's entire history" windu "didn't even know what happened" or something equivalent, until it was already over.

case in point, banes little speed feats got shit all on sideous'


that aside, the idea that moving faster then there eyes could follow is irrelevent because force users dont fight using their eyes anyway. do you think they need to "see" blaster bolts to deflect them?

Well firstly, "three of the most skilled and gifted jedi in the order's entire multi-thousand year old order" is a claim that originates from the mind of a fallible character and not the omniscient narrator, meaning it cannot be said to factually be the case, and "second most BAMF in the order's entire history" appears to be wild speculation originating from the mind of a fan, and not the omniscient narrator, meaning it cannot be said to factually be the case.

Secondly, as the movie, the highest form of canon (which in this case conflicts with the secondary novel) illustrates, all four of the Jedi present are visibly seen to immediately react to Palaptine's movements; they all adjust their stance and positioning to his opening movement, and are seen to react with each kill. Multiple factors beyond speed, such as positioning, stance, precision, control, footwork, strength, swordsplay, balance, timing etc.. would also enter the equation, so to attribute Palpatine's success to his speed alone would be a fallacy of division.

CX80LNuyCJY

Bane on the other hand is described as moving too fast for the eyes of all present to see, where solely his speed would enter the equation. Within the confines of that movement he also performs a complex maneuvre, where he lands multiple hits on his opponent, where each of which would have been lethal had he been wielding a lightsaber rather than the stun blades they were using.

All while Bane was the equivalent of a Jedi youngling in training and experience.

Lastly, while Jedi don't exactly rely on their vision in combat, it's still in place, and they still receive the benefits of Force enhanced reaction speed, meaning that Bane's ability to move faster than their eyes could see still displays a high capacity for speed. You'd only really have a point here if I was equating their inability to visually follow his movements with the inability to follow them at all.

Originally posted by Galan007



...On top of that, if we are going to use "he was moving so fast that couldn't see them" arguments as any sort of 'baseline' for speed, then it's also worth noting that Anakin couldn't even perceive Sidious when he was battling Mace. In fact, Anakin initially referred to Sidious only as "a thickening black haze that appeared to be fading in and out of existence."

So yeah...

Right.

Except as the movie (the highest form of canon) illustrates, Anakin didn't actually arrive at the Chancellor's office until Mace and Sidious's duel had ended, meaning the scene in the novelisation (secondary form of canon) where Anakin arrives in time to witness moments of their duel is rendered non canon.

Originally posted by OTNEMEM

Secondly, as the movie, the highest form of canon (which in this case conflicts with the secondary novel) illustrates, all four of the Jedi present are visibly seen to immediately react to Palaptine's movements; they all adjust their stance and positioning to his opening movement, and are seen to react with each kill. Multiple factors beyond speed, such as positioning, stance, precision, control, footwork, strength, swordsplay, balance, timing etc.. would also enter the equation, so to attribute Palpatine's success to his speed alone would be a fallacy of division.

Your point being?




As was Windu (Shatterpoint), and by extension Palpatine.



Which is irrelevant because even with his enormous command of the force, he is not the most powerful sith lord in history.

I do not remember giving you permision to enter this thread Shoes. Please kindly leave.

I feel guilty that I laughed at that.

Originally posted by OTNEMEM
Please kindly leave.

He seems to have listened.

hmmm.

Originally posted by Galan007



...On top of that, if we are going to use "he was moving so fast that couldn't see them" arguments as any sort of 'baseline' for speed, then it's also worth noting that Anakin couldn't even perceive Sidious when he was battling Mace. In fact, Anakin initially referred to Sidious only as "a thickening black haze that appeared to be fading in and out of existence."

So yeah...
this is n-canon

Originally posted by OTNEMEM
Right.

Except as the movie (the highest form of canon) illustrates, Anakin didn't actually arrive at the Chancellor's office until Mace and Sidious's duel had ended, meaning the scene in the novelisation (secondary form of canon) where Anakin arrives in time to witness moments of their duel is rendered non canon. Fair point. I tend to forget about the various levels of canonicity in SW.

However, that doesn't really change my main point - as Sidious still demonstrated incredible speed throughout that whole scene.

Correct my good friend.

I'd like to see ironclad, incontrovertible evidence that the narrators of the Bane novelizations are omniscient.

They aren't. It is third person limited.

Which brings in all sorts of implications such as the concept known as unrealiable narrator.

If they are third-person omniscient, so are most of the statements that we have about Dooku, the one about Anoon Bondara, and others. We have never allowed 3rd person omniscient in the past. I have no problem doing that, but we almost need to do a piece by piece rewrite of what we percieve as canon, since many sources that we regularly quote are thus.

Part of the confusion may come from what is genuine author error. It is easy to forget that sometimes characters may not known certain information. At the same time its entirely possible that some of it is deliberate, to emphasize the idea of a unreliable narrator.

It's just, as I'm reading the Bane novels (I have them open in front of me right now) to me they are written as third person limited.

@Gideon, which quotes are you talking about exactly?

I'd say that Bane takes a lightsaber duel because of his orbalisks but Sidious takes a Force contest because of his very powerful Force lightning and an all out fight as well; I doubt that Bane could block Sidious's Force lightning.

Originally posted by Galan007
Fair point. I tend to forget about the various levels of canonicity in SW.

However, that doesn't really change my main point - as Sidious still demonstrated incredible speed throughout that whole scene.

The purported speed he displayed in the scene in question has yet to be substantiated, as I already pointed out to Miss Marvel:

Originally posted by OTNEMEM
Secondly, as the movie, the highest form of canon (which in this case conflicts with the secondary novel) illustrates, all four of the Jedi present are visibly seen to immediately react to Palaptine's movements; they all adjust their stance and positioning to his opening movement, and are seen to react with each kill. Multiple factors beyond speed, such as positioning, stance, precision, control, footwork, strength, swordsplay, balance, timing etc.. would also enter the equation, so to attribute Palpatine's success to his speed alone would be a fallacy of division.

CX80LNuyCJY

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I'd say that Bane takes a lightsaber duel because of his orbalisks but Sidious takes a Force contest because of his very powerful Force lightning and an all out fight as well; I doubt that Bane could block Sidious's Force lightning.

Indeed; he can defend himself against and contain a planetary magnitude of Force lightning (this was not a product of the benefits he received in the ritual, but rather one of the prerequisites of the ritual itself that relied on Bane's unaided level of ability alone; it is something he performed under his own level of ability) but Palpatine's lightning is too much for him.

Originally posted by OTNEMEM
Indeed; he can defend himself against and contain a planetary magnitude of Force lightning (this was not a product of the benefits he received in the ritual, but rather one of the prerequisites of the ritual itself that relied on Bane's unaided level of ability alone; it is something he performed under his own level of ability) but Palpatine's lightning is too much for him.

what are you talking about there?

The ritual in PoD where he and the other Dark Lords joined together and were going to destroy the entire planet. The lightning was being largely provided by the other Dark Lords, but absorbing the lightning and containing it internally was done completely under Bane's own unaided level of ability.

I see. The problem with that is Bane didn't have the Orbalisks as of POD. The lightning would have killed them before reaching Bane.

Originally posted by OTNEMEM
The purported speed he displayed in the scene in question has yet to be substantiated, as I already pointed out to Miss Marvel: I wholly disagree.

Bane's speed: Moving faster than the eye can see from Zannah's perspective, is at least as impressive as moving too fast for Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn to react.

Kolar and Tinn have never on ANY level been even insinuated to be powerful in the force. Someone who is weak in the force is going to have no chance to keep up with a top-tier combatant like Sidious is when it comes to force-enhanced speed.

Zannah, however, is NOT weak in the force. and I believe Raskta and Fallon (sp?) were both described as powerful. Neb, can you provide those quotes? i haven't read ROT in years.

Originally posted by OTNEMEM
The ritual in PoD where he and the other Dark Lords joined together and were going to destroy the entire planet. The lightning was being largely provided by the other Dark Lords, but absorbing the lightning and containing it internally was done completely under Bane's own unaided level of ability. Actually, no, Bane was draining them of their force reserves which was inhancing his own abilities.

Sidious, you just restated what he just posted. The power was coming from the other Sith, Bane himself was doing the containing.

Originally posted by truejedi
Fallon (sp?)

Farfalla

Can't actually remember any specific quotes though I'm pretty sure they were both described as being pretty powerful.

Originally posted by OTNEMEM
The purported speed he displayed in the scene in question has yet to be substantiated, as I already pointed out to Miss Marvel:

Well, see, that's like, you know, your opinion, which contradicts ROTS when the novel states that he accepted furious speed.

Moreover, I demand proof of Bane's mastery over any lightsaber forms.

shoes: Please define: "furious"

You know the outcome. This will turn into a debacle like the Jango thread.

It will not. You don't have that much credibility. : ) You need to speak in facts. And saying "furiously" is absolutely unquantifiable.

It's part of the novel. A quote.

Read.

quantify and define your quote or it is meaningless.

Definition is in the dictionary.

Oh wait, you go by those, do you?

okay: The definition of "furious" is:


1. Full of or characterized by extreme anger; raging.
2. Suggestive of extreme anger in action or appearance; fierce. See Synonyms at angry.
3. Full of activity; energetic or rapid:


soooo... looking at this: Your argument about Sidious's speed is based on him being, "angry, and ... rapid?"

Don't be trite, I gave you the attempt to define furious in this instance, and you passed on it. You are just simply very bad at this.

Originally posted by truejedi
Sidious, you just restated what he just posted. The power was coming from the other Sith, Bane himself was doing the containing. Isn't he saying that since Bane absorbed the planetary level lightning that he would be able to absorb Sidious' lightning?

I'm saying that when he was draining them it could have inhanced his ability, such as absorbing and directing.

Originally posted by Shoes
Yet earlier when "desperate" was defined, right out of the dictionary, you completely disregarded the definition and instead of attemtping to credit Mara, you attempted to discredit canon because it wasn't convenient for you.

This, never happened. You made a weak point and then started repeating it loudly. What you need, is a strategy. Or at least a bit of logic.



good golly shoes. You struggle.

So your argument is NOW that Sidiuos was using "unrestrained, energy and speed, etc.?"

You do realize that saying he was unrestrained is simply saying he wasn't holding back, right? It does NOTHING to say HOW fast he was.

I'm giving you exactly ONE more post to make a pertinent claim towards that end, and if you fail to do so, we are done. You aren't worth the time because you don't understand substantiation.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Isn't he saying that since Bane absorbed the planetary level lightning that he would be able to absorb Sidious' lightning?

I'm saying that when he was draining them it could have inhanced his ability, such as absorbing and directing.

Yes, and Bane did absorb that much power, but wouldn't have been able to generate that much power. So i think you had his argument, your rebuttal made me think you were contending with his assertion though.

However, thanks to the Orbalisks, it is doubtful that Bane would now be able to absorb that same amount of electricity from an outside source.

Which itself, by Neb's argument, contradicts what we see on-screen in ROTS, which is them moving at perfectly normal speeds. And since movies>books in canon....



"You've moved far beyond sequences and forms," the Master told him. "In that last pass you broke off your attack in the middle of one sequence and came at me from a completely different and unexpected angle."- Kas'im.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which itself, by Neb's argument, contradicts what we see on-screen in ROTS, which is them moving at perfectly normal speeds. And since movies>books in canon....



The filmmakers would need to keep things slower than what is said in the novelization so that the audience can actually see the fight, and the actors are human.

Its not exactly hard to show that someone's fighting in superspeed without making them actually move that fast. If Smallville can do it, George Moneybags Lucas sure as shit can.

Plus there are things that show that they aren't moving that fast, like sparks being just as fast as they normally are, clothes shifting and ruffling the same, when Palps kills the B team they callapse at normal speed, blaster bolts move just as fast when Jedi are deflecting them as when they aren't etc etc. Theres only one instance of legitimate Force speed shown in all the movies and its shown that they're moving that fast.

1.) Leland Chee has confirmed unambiguously in the Holocron continuity thread on the Star Wars website that feats and powers depicted in the EU do not contradict the movies in terms of their exaggeration and over-the-top effects. I'll provide the link ASAP.

2.) Lucas has flat-out said that the PT was meant to depict the prime of the Jedi; do you honestly expect us to believe that they would be less capable than the Jedi of old? There are going to be discrepencies in whatever medium in which the story is told. Comic books, video games, and novelizations allow for greater use of over-the-top, dramatic displays of power than a movie, which eats up a shitton of budget. In the Force Unleashed, we see General Kota and Kazdan Paratus perform spectacular feats (casually deflecting Force lightning & telekinesis and using the Force to animate legions of Sith-hunting junk-droids) that are beyond the likes of Palpatine and Yoda, if you go strictly by the movies. What do you think Lucas would say to you if you suggested that Kota or Paratus were more powerful than Yoda or Palpatine? He'd probably bitchslap you.

3.) The Revenge of the Sith novelization's final draft was reviewed personally by Lucas per Matthew Stover; he mentioned that he got an email with all of Lucas's edits and alterations made. In his own words, "whatever's in the book was there because wanted it there. Period." Again, I'll provide the link ASAP. (The novelization also goes to great lengths to explain certain issues or errors or questions within the film; I remember one, in particular. During the opening sequence of the film, we see that Republic and Confederacy fleets are pretty much on top of each other -- Stover explains that this is not the case through his mentioning of Invisible Hand's sophisticated computer systems that allow observers to witness the battle as though these ships were mere meters from each other, when the reality is that they are kilometers apart.

First off I'd like to point out that I never actually said that I agreed with Neb's argument, though I do feel it has some merit.



Maybe I should be asking Neb this becuase apparantly he knows the guy, but is Chee a person allowed to set canon? I seem to recall that this was a point of some contention awhile ago. Secondly, Chee actually says that, 'What we see in the films is the canon version of events. All other versions are developed specifically for their respective medium' (although he then says that contradictions should be handled case by case). And since movies>all other mediums in terms of canon.....



'Prime of the Jedi' is a rather ambigous phrase. Is it referring to combat and/or Force power, becuase that seems to contradict the whole 'our ability to use the Force has diminished motha****a!' In fact, iirc correctly, Lucas was just using it to counterbalance the PT and OT as in, 'what we'll be seeing is the time when the Jedi were in their prime, as opposed to when thy were practically wiped out in ANH.' And no, I know that Palps and Yoda are better becuase they have things other than feats backing them up. Though I doubt that Lucas would even know who those other characters are if I ever bring it up to him. Or that he'd care that much.



If I were being really nitpicky and mean I'd point out that yeah, what in the novel is there becuase Lucas wanted it to be. Whats in the movie is also there becuase Lucas wanted it to be. And since Movie>Book, whats shown on-screen trumps whats in the novel.

^ IOU a pwnage. I'll be back later to smite you, my child.

luv u bbs

Originally posted by truejedi

This, never happened. You made a weak point and then started repeating it loudly. What you need, is a strategy. Or at least a bit of logic.


No, what happened was I gave an accurate definition of the word you made such a huge fuss about, and when I did, you chose to ignore the definition and simply regurgitated the same "no" over and over again.



Yes. Sidious was completely free of any physical constraint, and thus he was able to fight as fast as he could. The fact that Mace could only match his speed, after countless quotes from Shatterpoint, referring to him as "invisible", definitely implies that Sidious is faster than Bane.

Moreover, you've once again, neglected to support your argument. Which was what by the way? The definition of furious isn't what it is defined as? Shatterpoint is not canon? Palpatine did not slaughter 3 Jedi Council members, two of which referred to by Yoda as the best swordsmen in the order (Shadow Hunter), in less than a second?

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/11/11/128709086700118290.jpg

If Jedi were all supermen, none of them should have died at Geonosis, Kenobi should have been able to run through the forcefields fast enough to catch up with Qui-Gon, and Jango Fett shouldn't have been able to stun a Jedi with a snowball.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And since Movie>Book, whats shown on-screen trumps whats in the novel. True. However, if the happenings of the novel weren't contradicted by the happenings of the movie, then the former are permissible as evidence.

That being said, where things like Palpatine's speed feats are concerned -- just because said speed feats were better described in the novel, doesn't mean they are non-canon simply because they may not have appeared to be as 'uber' in the film. Etc.

Originally posted by Nephthys


"You've moved far beyond sequences and forms," the Master told him. "In that last pass you broke off your attack in the middle of one sequence and came at me from a completely different and unexpected angle."- Kas'im.

So... it's not stated that he is a master. Of any form.

Wookiepedia lists him as a Djem So master, but no line from either RoT or PoD confirms this.

I'm looking at the novelization that we are all fighting so hard over, and it strikes me that we are wasting our time:

The only description of Sidious's speed is given on pg. 329, from Anakin's perspective:

"The Shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be palpatine?"

and the ambiguous "furious speed" on pg 330. Sorry, but "furious" doesn't make a good argument for "faster than Bane".


The first quote sounds good, but it is definitly non-canon, since Anakin didn't arrive till the lightsaber fight was over.

Nowhere is it said that Sidious was too fast for Saesee Tinn and Agen Kolar. Rewatching, it could be said he had better technique or footwork than they did. The Novelization of THEIR deaths is also non-canon, meaning what we see, is what we get.

I am not saying Bane wins this fight, I am saying: There is NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that Sidious would be able to simply speed-rush Bane and kill him in a moment. This is a heck of a close fight.

You can dispute furious all you want. I don't care anymore. Ultimately, Mace has to use Vaapad to only match Palpatine's speed. This is the same Mace referred to in Shatterpoint as invisible.

Once again, Saesee, Fitso and Depa referred to as the order's greatest swordsmen in Shadow Hunter, implying that they are able to take care of themselves and obviously have intimate saber knowledge and technique. The fact that Sidious ran over them in 5 seconds (film version) is an impressive feat. The fact that he fell Fitso within 10 seconds is also impressive. Particularily since there is no indication anywhere that Palpatine had practiced saber combat in the past decade, and thus his skill became rusty.

An alternative to "speed rushing", is simply disarming Bane and then melting him with lightning. If Sidious could match Windu and then overpower Yoda with the force with no practice for ten years, Bane doesn't stand a chance.

EDIT: Also see above post.

Hmmm... Bane vs. Yoda in a force fight. and Definitly Bane vs. Mace in a force-fight doesn't sound very cut and dried to me. The second one sounds like a Bane win, TBH.

que

Bane vs. Mace in a force fight? IMO, Bane wins that.

Didn't you say:



Either of those force-fights, would be, in my opinion a toss-up. Yoda would need a lightsaber to beat Bane. So saying: Sidious can match Mace in the force and overpower Yoda with the force (which didn't happen btw..) means that he definitly beats Bane is wrong.

You just haven't substantiated furiously though. It doesn't say that Mace is invisible in ROTS. Invisible in shatterpoint, to Kar Vastor, but perhaps not here.

Saesee Tinn, and Agen Kolar being the order's greatest Swordsman (and the quote says some of the greatest swordsmen, btw... means little when it comes to using the force. Nowhere is ANY indication given that they are gifted with strong force abilities. Anoon Bondara was the most skilled swordsman as well, but he wasn't that good.

All that aside: It boils down to this: And if you are going to address something, address this: your paragraph answers which prompt MY paragraph answers are annoying to both of us, i'm sure.

1. In my opinion, Sidious DID speed rush Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn. It is the simplest explanation. I think he was just better than Fisto.

2. None of those three are ANYWHERE near Bane when it comes to force ability.

3.Maul/Yoda/Mace have all 3 successfully crossed blades with Sidious without being overwhelmed by his speed. Bane has comparable force ability.

4. The quote "furious" speed is nice, and if you are going to say that he was using "invisible" speed in his fight with Mace, great, but considering Maul was able to keep up with "invisible" speed, and Padawan Kenobi was able to keep up with Maul....

I think you are really underestimating Bane to say that Sidious can simply speed rush him. Sidious didn't do that to any of the top-tier combatants he faced, and Bane is DEFINITLY top-tier by all indications.


Your lightning idea is better, but he must successfully disarm Bane first. Not saying it couldn't happen, but it would be difficult since Bane doesn't have to pay any attention to protecting most of his body when fighting.

I'm still of the opinion that this fight is a toss-up. I picked the fight because it was the closest fight I could think of for Bane.

Originally posted by Shoes
So... it's not stated that he is a master. Of any form.

Wookiepedia lists him as a Djem So master, but no line from either RoT or PoD confirms this.

I can see why you're looked down upon by the rest. What part of 'You've moved far beyond sequences and Forms' do you not understand? I'm positive that if I combed through POD I'd find a quote that shows he mastered Djem So at the least but it really doesn't matter. The (arguably) greatest swordsman in the mythos says that he's 'far beyond' forms, showing that he has EXTREME(!) mastery of them.

For that matter, wtf do you mean by 'mastery'? Does it have to be explicitly stated before you can call someone a 'master'? Becuase I'm pretty sure Sidious isn't called a master swordsman either. Does that mean that he isn't one? We know that Bane memorised 'thousands' if not hundreds of thousands of sequences, was comparable in skill to the two greatest swordsmasters of his time (Raskta and Kas'im) and knew multiple forms and variations of those forms such as double-bladed style, well enough to teach Zannah and create her 'absolute defence!1!!1' and Kas'im himself said that he was 'far beyond sequences and forms.' If Bane isn't a a master-class swordsman I'll eat my foot.



You really know nothing about Bane do you. Sidious won't be able to disarm Bane like he's a petulant child with a stick. Bane has comparable speed and skill to Sidious and the orbalisks, no way is Sids taking him down so easily.



His skill had nothing to do with it. Watch the scene again, he didn't outduel them in a stunning display of lightsaber mastery, he just acted before they could react. Something which Bane would have done to the Grandmaster of the Order and its premier Swordsbeast in ROT if they hadn't have been under the influence of battle meditation.

I'm sure this has already been mentioned and likely conceded by any Bane enthusiast (with one notable exception), but Palpatine enjoys an advantage over Bane in terms of Force power, as per binding statements from canon sources (the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Dark Side Sourcebook, etc.). How much of an advantage that constitutes can be argued, I suppose, but nevertheless that advantage is there.

Speed-wise, we can examine Palpatine's performance against Mace Windu and his team of Jedi Masters in Revenge of the Sith. Like it or not, all of the Jedi assembled were "celebrated swordsmen" and held in high regard by both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu. In addition, all four of them were prepared for a confrontation, with their weapons brandished and ignited and equipped with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Masters Kolar and Tiin were removed in, what? Two seconds? Palpatine went on to spar with both Fisto and Windu simultaneously -- the same Fisto who was able to outduel General Grievous in single combat as seen in the Star Wars: the Clone Wars TV show. But both of them together weren't enough, Fisto was cut down only after a few exchanges and Palpatine "forced the mighty Windu back" (per Windu's entry in the official databank). It was only after Windu summoned the full power of Vaapad (the deadliest and most difficult of all lightsaber forms) that he was able to even match Palpatine. In the Making of the Revenge of the Sith, Lucas explicitly states that you have to be Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine. Which means, no matter what, the other three -- despite being prolific swordsmen and experienced Jedi Masters -- could never win against Palpatine based on their own skill and power alone. The fight would have ended the same way, regardless of the circumstances.



I'd need to see more of Bane's feats and whatnot that indicates he could defeat Palpatine, because he already faces a disadvantage in Force strength and skill.

Can we be sure that Sidious himself trained Maul in Juyo, and that Maul couldn't have been trained in the art through some other means?

This is particularly impressive for me as Grievous has been described as such in the ROTS novel: 'The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan-but he didn't have to.'

Although its stupid to think that no human can move as fast as Grievous, as Luke, Bane, Sidious, Windu etc probably can, its still an indication of just how fast, skillfull and deadly you'd have to be to beat him, which Kit Fisto did and Sidious would have to had to have been faster and deadlier in turn to beat Fisto so effortlessly.



Given that Bane introduced the ability to make Holocron's I find it very possibly that he could have learnt it a different way, such as from one. Heck, Zannah can pretty much walk into the Order at any time, the Sith have many ways of obtaining details on forms and such from them and a millenia to do it in.

I'd wager that the novelization is correct; strictly speaking, no human can move as fast as Grievous. The passage goes onto indicate that much of Obi-Wan's success in his encounters with the general was largely due to his state of mind and unity with the Force; precognition that enabled him to perceive what Grievous was going to do. If you can accurately predict what an opponent will do, you don't necessarily have to be faster than him if you're efficient enough.

N
Given that Bane introduced the ability to make Holocron's I find it very possibly that he could have learnt it a different way, such as from one. Heck, Zannah can pretty much walk into the Order at any time, the Sith have many ways of obtaining details on forms and such from them and a millenia to do it in.

Do you have anything other than speculation?

Nope. Do you have anything to indicate that Sidious was the one teaching him Juyo?



Well, I'd say that since Kit was able to fight Grievous despite his speed, yet was completely unable to deal with Sidious', that Sidious at least could be said to be as fast as him, or faster. Of course, Sidious could have just have been utterly blocking out his ability to feel his intent and predict his attacks, which would be staggering for most Jedi.

N
Nope.

I didn't think so.



Other than the fact that he was Maul's Master? Or am I to assume that, contrary to the numerous sources that indicate as much, there really was a Rule of Three that included a third Sith Lord, specifically created for the purposes of this discussion, manufactured to compromise Sidious's lightsaber skills?

Well, unfortunately for you, I do.

"A Zabrak born on the world of lridonia, the child who would one day be known as Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by a holocron a third Sith MasterDarth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts." -- the Dark Side Sourcebook, pg. 86.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious' mind-****ery+5 wasn't enough to win over Marek

We must have read different books, 'cuz I recall that the only thing that stopped Palpatine from overwhelming Marek's mind was Kota's... unique intervention.

And am I to assume that Bane went to all that trouble learning how to record teachings and techniques down in Holocron's just for shits and giggles? Maybe after he made it he just threw it out of the window becuase **** it, no-ones ever going to use it. No, its pretty silly to believe that the Sith never used the Holocron's that were in their possetion. Heck, ROT shows that a Sith Lord isn't enough to teach an apprentice everything, and that sometimes they need to utilise other sources (in this case a wierd sorcery book) to teach subects outside of their own repertoire.

As it is, your quote is enough to get me to drop the point, but I still think its a shakey point, Sidious can teach Maul through a Holocron just as an English teacher can teach through a book assignment, or Bane can teach Zannah by giving her that book thingy.



/shrug/ I read it mostly in the store, so maybe. Anyway, Bane has shown remarkable skill at resisting Mind-influence early in his training, that I don't recall Marek ever having. I doubt he'll be able to utilise it in battle at any rate.

Originally posted by Gideon
"A Zabrak born on the world of lridonia, the child who would one day be known as Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by a holocron a third Sith MasterDarth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts." -- the Dark Side Sourcebook, pg. 86.

That would only indicate that Sidious provided some degree of Maul's training in the mentioned fields, not necessarily all of it.

Edit - And yeah, as Nephthys mentioned Sidious could still be considered Maul's teacher through proxy of providing him with teaching material.

I tend to have that effect.



Joking aside, I'm going to treat this particular line the same way I would if HWKN said it: what you think is irrelevant here. We're not having a discussion, we're having a debate; if this were in the confines of Project Holocron or a casual chat, then perhaps I'd be interested in going further with this line of thought. As it is, you have an opinion: Bane wins. I have an opinion: Bane does not. Baseless speculation really has nothing to do with this thread.

The line flat out says that Palpatine was the one who trained Maul in combat, not a holocron nor a droid nor an artificial Sith Lord created for the purposes of this discussion. If you or anyone else (Nebaris, I'm looking at you ) want to challenge the quote, then you must provide canonical basis for it.

As it stands, the quote is binding and decisive. On this particular part of the topic, the discussion is over until such a time that someone provides the basis to challenge it.

I know its from a later incarnation, so I'm not going to be trying to use it for this argument, but this is a pretty nifty show of skill, stamina and speed, particularly as he's just been whining about being weaker (just started actually reading it).





Which is why I immediately said why I thought that, backing my point up with evidence, rather than just saying I thought so 'just cuz'. crackers

Nice.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm sure this has already been mentioned and likely conceded by any Bane enthusiast (with one notable exception), but Palpatine enjoys an advantage over Bane in terms of Force power, as per binding statements from canon sources (the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Dark Side Sourcebook, etc.). How much of an advantage that constitutes can be argued, I suppose, but nevertheless that advantage is there.

Speed-wise, we can examine Palpatine's performance against Mace Windu and his team of Jedi Masters in Revenge of the Sith. Like it or not, all of the Jedi assembled were "celebrated swordsmen" and held in high regard by both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu. In addition, all four of them were prepared for a confrontation, with their weapons brandished and ignited and equipped with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Masters Kolar and Tiin were removed in, what? Two seconds? Palpatine went on to spar with both Fisto and Windu simultaneously -- the same Fisto who was able to outduel General Grievous in single combat as seen in the Star Wars: the Clone Wars TV show. But both of them together weren't enough, Fisto was cut down only after a few exchanges and Palpatine "forced the mighty Windu back" (per Windu's entry in the official databank). It was only after Windu summoned the full power of Vaapad (the deadliest and most difficult of all lightsaber forms) that he was able to even match Palpatine. In the Making of the Revenge of the Sith, Lucas explicitly states that you have to be Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine. Which means, no matter what, the other three -- despite being prolific swordsmen and experienced Jedi Masters -- could never win against Palpatine based on their own skill and power alone. The fight would have ended the same way, regardless of the circumstances. Concerning Palpatine's battle with Mace, Kit, Saesee, and Agen, there is also this statement made by Obi-Wan, and backed by Yoda...

"Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee--four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance." "True," Yoda said. "But both of us apart, a chance we might create . . .""


My point is that Sidious overwhelmed and slew 3 of the confirmed greatest swordsman in the order's history, through what appeared to be superior overall speed -- not necessarily superior lightsaber skill (going by the movie's depiction of this battle for the last bit.)

I'd agree with you that Kolar and Tiin's deaths were the result of Palpatine's superior speed, but I'm not certain that that distinction can be quite as clearly made with Fisto and Windu.

confirmed?

Originally posted by Gideon
I'd agree with you that Kolar and Tiin's deaths were the result of Palpatine's superior speed, but I'm not certain that that distinction can be quite as clearly made with Fisto and Windu. Palpatine's slaying of Kit certainly would have incorporated an impressive degree of technical skill (combating 2 opponents simultaneously usually does.) However, I still think that superior speed played a HUGE part there.

What book did obiwan say this in?

The fact of the matter is, that Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn being 2 of the greatest swordsman the Jedi order had ever possessed didn't help them at all against Sidious's superior speed, since he was stronger in the force.

Maul/Yoda/Mace/DE Luke/Marek and... Kit, according to Gideon's post above. (though I still think he was kinda out-classed by Sidious's speed) were all able to successfully cross blades against this speed. In other words, every single opponent of ANY substantial force power is able to fight a normal duel with Sidious.

So sidious is going to have to win a normal light-saber duel over Bane. We can't work from an assumption that Sidious will outclass Bane to the point of defeating him without a fight like Kolar and Tinn.

Can he win the duel? certainly. He may be better than Bane with a blade. Even Johun got in a cut on Bane during their fight. (albeit (see Blank, it wasn't THAT hard of a thing to type!) that was with Bane contending with 3 other high-level masters under BM at the same time)

My problem with giving him a no-doubt victory under these conditions is that Sidious only has Bane's head to aim for. anything else can't be touched, or heals quickly enough to make it useless. Sidious would have to completely out-class Bane with a blade to make up the difference in available target space. I don't know if Sidious is THAT much better than Bane with a lightsaber. I will need further evidence.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What book did obiwan say this in?

ROTS.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What book did obiwan say this in? In the Revenge of the Sith novelization.

Originally posted by truejedi
Maul/Yoda/Mace/DE Luke/Marek and... Kit, according to Gideon's post above. (though I still think he was kinda out-classed by Sidious's speed) were all able to successfully cross blades against this speed. In other words, every single opponent of ANY substantial force power is able to fight a normal duel with Sidious.

So sidious is going to have to win a normal light-saber duel over Bane. We can't work from an assumption that Sidious will outclass Bane to the point of defeating him without a fight like Kolar and Tinn. Aside from Mace, none of the opponents you mentioned were able to defeat Palpatine in a duel (quite the contrary, in fact) - so I'm not sure if I understand where you were going with that..?

I don't think Palps could outclass Bane to the same degree he did against Agen and Saesee. However, the fact that he was able to effortlessly slay two of 'the best swordsman the order has ever produced' before they even had a chance to defend themselves, should speak volumes concerning his overall speed/technical skill (as should his simultaneous battle with Kit and Mace.)

Theres a difference between being technically skilled and being strong in the Force speed department. Them being talented swordsmen (which btw is only Kenobi's opinion if we're going just by that quote) simply showcases their technical skill and does not equate them being powerfull overall combatants like Mace, Yoda, Luke etc.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres a difference between being technically skilled and being strong in the Force speed department. Them being talented swordsmen (which btw is only Kenobi's opinion if we're going just by that quote) simply showcases their technical skill and does not equate them being powerfull overall combatants like Mace, Yoda, Luke etc. Considering Obi-Wan essentially said "If Palpatine could kill all of them, he could easily kill the both of us ", I think it's save to say that they had a pretty impressive power/skill ratio.

srug

Originally posted by truejedi
Bane vs. Mace in a force fight? IMO, Bane wins that.



Bane was left drained after Kas'im blocked his TK wave. He was simply lying there, regaining his strength after he unleashed it. Furthermore, he has to deal with Vaapad, although I'm not sure he knows any other techniques that could be of real harm to Windu.



Bane = Yoda?

nty

Bane = Mace?

Fine. But definitely not in lightsaber combat, with Vaapad being a factor. Which was the only way Mace could even match Palpatine's speed, not force power. Palpatine threw the force fight, and overpowered Yoda with his lightning. What feats has Bane displayed with the force, aside from unleashing the inferno?



If an omnicient narrarator says that Mace's speed was invisible, then Mace was invisible. Simple as that.



Exactly. This is how Bane beat Kas'im, by combining his force power with his unmatched knowledge of the two-handed saber.



Yes.



Nor Palpatine.



When did Maul actually fight Sidious? Even so, I doubt Palpatine was trying to actually kill his student.

Yoda is a master of lightsaber combat, with a metric ton of force power and knowledge. Still, Sidious defeated him.

Mace > All darksiders (except if DE Palpatine melts his saber) in terms of lightsaber combat. Seriously, no darksider can beat him, no matter how powerful they are. ROTS Palpatine is no excepetion to this. Bane is no exception to this. Whereas, once again, when it came down to the force, Palpatine threw the fight.

Thing is, never was it claimed that Palpatine's speed exceeded Bane's. The only thin I claimed was that he had speed feats that matched his, so the battle would ultimately be decided by technical skill and force power.



See above, and re-read TPM. Maul was toying with both of them.



I love Bane. I really do. He won't be speed rushed. But he is severely outclassed here.



I read series called Dark Emperor, chronicling the events between ANH and DE from the Emperor's perspective, detailing his obsession with immortality and his cloning projects. Anyways, one part fascinated me, and I needn't bore you with details, but an untrained dark Jedi was capable of not only absorbing ANH Palpatine's lightning, but releasing it back at him, hurling Palpatine back.

If Bane is capable of this, then this fight is closer than I would have thought. If not, Palpatine wins. By a significant margin.

Why are you making things up?

I hope think he's talking about a fanfic.

He is, I just Googled it. It's part of a fanon. Check it.

Originally posted by Galan007
My point is that Sidious overwhelmed and slew 3 of the confirmed greatest swordsman in the order's history...

Where is it confirmed that those were three of the orders greatest? I didn't know that Obi-Wan's personal opinion counts as "fact", neither does that of Mace Windu...

Try again.

^ "Try again?" What's with the arrogance around here?

Anyhow, Yoda agreed with Obi-Wan's comment. So I'm assuming it was pretty valid. /shrug.

Pre-emptive Ouch.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ "Try again?" What's with the arrogance around here?

Anyhow, Yoda agreed with Obi-Wan's comment. So I'm assuming it was pretty valid. /shrug.

It's Faunus.

He's like cross between Fat Albert and the Puppetmaster, making us dance along on his twisted little strings.

If by Fat you mean Big and Albert and you mean Daddy, yes.

Yes indeed.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ "Try again?" What's with the arrogance around here?


I've earned the right to be arrogant by pwning people in debates using my secondary language for five years in a row. Nuff said?



You do realize that it doesn't help your case when one characters opinion is shared by another character, right? They do not walk around in the various sources to speak the unquestionable truth. If we would follow that line of thought, Obi-Wan would be as wise as Yoda and as powerful as Mace Windu, because Anakin says so in AotC.

That aside, I don't see Yoda agreeing with Obi-Wan's idea that the trio belonged to the "best ever". He just agrees to the idea that, together, they might not be able to defeat Sidious.

So: Try again.

regardless of their swordsmen skills, their lack of accolades in force ability makes them fodder against top-tier force users.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I've earned the right to be arrogant Stopped reading.

Originally posted by Galan007
Stopped reading.

I wish you'd continued to the "" at the end of the line...

So you admit that you don't have an argument? Fine.

^ I could argue with you, but what's the point? It's not like you'll agree with me, and it's not like I'll agree with you.

Personally, I don't like to participate in circular debates. Trying to save us both a headache, is all.

You don't understand German psychology, Galan. They are either crushed, or they win. There is no "tie".

^ I understand it. I simply refuse to indulge in it.

DO EET FOR ZEE MOTHERLAND

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
You don't understand German psychology, Galan. They are either crushed, or they win. There is no "tie".

There is no "tie" here, because he is wrong.

^ You son of a.... hitlershakefist

Originally posted by Galan007
^ You son of a.... hitlershakefist

LMAO @ Hitlersmiley !

Why do people keep saying Sid defeated Yoda in battle... is there some alternate version of the movie or book that I missed when buying my copy?

Somebody said it best... those three Jedi, while technically skilled, weren't proficient force power users. It goes back to the debate I had with someone before.... You can be the best dojo jedi duelist in the world, but when when you face a life or death combat situation, then you truly know how skilled you are.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Somebody said it best... those three Jedi, while technically skilled, weren't proficient force power users. In some cases, superior technical skill with a lightsaber makes up for lesser prowess with the force.

For instance: Kas'im vs. Bane, Anakin vs. Dooku (RotS), Mace vs. Sidious.

Actually, in the case of Anakin Vs. Dooku, it was Skywalker's strength in the Force that overcame Dooku's technical skill with a blade.

^ Ah yes, I forgot about the novel's interpretation. They both began tapping absurd amounts of force energy, but Dooku's body couldn't handle it as well as Anakin, and eventually began giving out. I think the novel stated something like Dooku aging 10 years for every strike Anakin delivered, or somesuch.

Regardless, my main point is still valid. Superior lightsaber skill can bridge the gap between lesser force powers.

Originally posted by Galan007
In some cases, superior technical skill with a lightsaber makes up for lesser prowess with the force.

For instance: Kas'im vs. Bane, Anakin vs. Dooku (RotS), Mace vs. Sidious.

This can be true, but as I stated before my friend, those guys were technically good in the dojo but beat nobody of substance one v one. I equate them to be great teachers and technical masters in theory, but not awesome when it came to a one v one dual with somebody as good. They are what call All Star practice players... they look great and like all stars during practice.. come game time.. they don't make it off the bench.

^ That's your opinion, and it is fair. But remember, these same guys were actively fighting throughout the entirety of the Clone Wars. Call them 'theoretical masters' all you want, but they had battle experience under their belts.... And a lot of it.

Furthermore if they were merely 'fodder-Jedi', I doubt Yoda would have agreed with Obi-Wan's statement that "Sidious could easily pwn the two of us, if he killed all of them." /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
^ That is your opinion. Remember, these same guys were actively fighting throughout the entirety of the Clone Wars. Call them 'theoretical masters' all you want, but they had battle experience under their belts.... And a lot of it.

Furthermore if they were merely 'fodder-Jedi', I doubt Yoda would have agreed with Obi-Wan's statement that "Sidious could easily pwn the two of us, if he killed all of them." /shrug

It's my opinion because they beat nobody of substance in a one v one duel that I've ever heard of. If you can name me some people they beat, either jedi or sith, I would be more than happy to reconsider. Fighting in the clone wars and dispatching of random fodder proves they are technically awesome one ve one against a fellow force user and technical swordsman? Somebody can be technically good, but when it's game time, not so much.

^ It seems like you're stuck on the notion that these guys never laid their hands on a lightsaber in battle, before confronting Palpatine... Which isn't true. They fought throughout the entire Clone Wars. Hell, even Mace Windu became much more battle hardened/refined from all the years of fighting -- so I'm sure they would have too.

Though I will admit that out of Kit, Saesee, and Agen, Kit certainly has the best feats (tooling Grievous and all.) But yeah, I understand where you're coming from. You want confirmed 'uber-class' feats, and these guys simply do not have them. However, I see no reason why Obi-Wan's "if Sids can defeat them, he could easily pwn us " comment wouldn't be valid in some way/shape/form.... Especially when Yoda agreed with it..?

Meh, it's all opinion based, I guess..

I see this said a lot. Do you have a source?

^ I know I have seen it in some type of source, but I can't remember which one right off hand. I'll try to remember to look for it when I get home tomorrow.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ It seems like you're stuck on the notion that these guys never laid their hands on a lightsaber before confronting Palpatine... Which isn't true. They fought throughout the entire Clone Wars. Hell, even Mace Windu became much more battle hardened/refined from fighting in the War for so many years.

Though I will admit that out of Kit, Saesee, and Agen, Kit certainly has the best feats (tooling Grievous and all.) But yeah, I understand where you're coming from. You want confirmed 'uber-class' feats, and these guys simply do not have them. However, I see no reason why Obi-Wan's "if Sids can defeat them, he could easily pwn us" comment wouldn't be valid in some way/shape/form.... Especially when Yoda agreed with it.

Meh, it's all opinion based, I guess..

Come on my friend, am I really saying these guys haven't laid their hands on lightsabers? In fact, I've said the opposite. They have years and years of lightsaber training, and becoming technical masters of said weapon. However, being technical dojo masters and fighting no force using fodder in the clone wars, doesn't give me the life or death one v one duals I'm looking for. I don't need uber feats of holdings destroyer together via the force without it breaking apart or taking on 3 jedi masters at the same time. What I'm asking for, are one v. one duals against quality opponents for these three masters. You don't think that is the "best" way to judge how good someone is with a lightsaber? Going against a quality foe in a life or death situation, is far removed from looking good in the dojo or beating no name robot fodder. Sure it can make you better, but doesn't prove your technical skill or prowess against quality opposition. You prove that in a duel, just as you prove it on the basketball court come game time, not in practice. You don't think it's possible they were referring to how good they were in the dojo, or how proficient they were in multiple styles? Seems like that could very logically be why they were held in such high esteem. Either way my friend, you're correct in that it's all a matter of opinion. I respect yours more than most, and thus I'm not totally disagreeing with your stance. I guess we're just arguing over semantics and the interpretation of said lines.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You don't think it's possible they were referring to how good they were in the dojo, or how proficient they were in multiple styles? Seems like that could very logically be why they were held in such high esteem.

Either way my friend, you're correct in that it's all a matter of opinion. I respect yours more than most, and thus I'm not totally disagreeing with your stance. I guess we're just arguing over semantics and the interpretation of said lines. Considering the context, I don't think 'dojo-proficiency' is what Obi-Wan was commenting on at all.

I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion either... I'm just throwing mine out there as well. But like you said, it's all semantics in the end.

Stop being so fvcking agreeable you scone.

^ Okay, I'll stop.



















.....Shit! Did I just agree to not agree? Thanks, you have successfully turned me into a walking contradiction.

^^^^^ That was funny

Originally posted by Galan007


Regardless, my main point is still valid. Superior lightsaber skill can bridge the gap between lesser force powers.

CAN: But obviously DIDN'T. Not in this circumstance. and not in the circumstance of Maul vs. Bondara.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I see this said a lot. Do you have a source? It's from TPM. Remember: PANAKA: "Our security volunteers will be no match for a battle-hardened nigga."

Originally posted by truejedi
CAN: But obviously DIDN'T. Not in this circumstance. and not in the circumstance of Maul vs. Bondara. Can and has (instances were given.) That was my only point, you argumentative such and such. sneer