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which team wins?


no bfr

BB and BA

BRB and WW

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
BRB and WW

Im so conflicted

Im going team 2

BRB and WW. WW is easily a match or near Match to BA. While BRB is Superior to BB. WW is also slightly Superior to BB. She is faster than he while BRB seems stronger and has a hammer.BRB to me is also more dangerous than BA. They both see about as tuff and strongbut BA has no magical weapns. Tean One has Five.

BRB isn't far superior to BB.BB is probably low-mid herald and BRB is high herald.

BB's still the weakest link here. And WW has the "use lasso and ask BA his transformation word" win too, but honestly I'd think team 1 wins even without that.

Brb actually is far superior physically to bb

yea ill give it to team one...BB is def weak link...not by much but he is

BA is arguably the most powerful here. But BB is the weak link. Got to give it to team 1.

I have an urge to switch sides so I can support Black Bolt just because of all the naysayers. Still, Bill is my boy.

Stormbreaker smash.

Originally posted by ares834
BA is arguably the most powerful here. But BB is the weak link. Got to give it to team 1.

What?

He's the most one dimensional person here, actually. And in any case, the "weak links" of either team are nothing to sneer at. It just sucks for Black Bolt because the defenses of Team 1 are pretty top tier between Stormbreaker and the Aegis bracers.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
What?

He's the most one dimensional person here, actually. And in any case, the "weak links" of either team are nothing to sneer at. It just sucks for Black Bolt because the defenses of Team 1 are pretty top tier between Stormbreaker and the Aegis bracers.
What do you mean most "one dimensional person" that he has a boring character?

As for BB. Sure he is powerful. And while he isn't weak by any stretch of the imagination he is simply outclassed. Sure he can give any one here a fight. But IMO would lose a magority of the time. Meanwhile the other three are all roughly equal.

Originally posted by ares834
What do you mean most "one dimensional person" that he has a boring character?

As for BB. Sure he is powerful. And while he isn't weak by any stretch of the imagination he is simply outclassed. Sure he can give any one here a fight. But IMO would lose a magority of the time. Meanwhile the other three are all roughly equal.

One dimensional as he's limited to flight, super strength, super speed, durability, etc. He can amp his blows with magic or call down the lightning, but other than that, he doesn't do much that nobody else present can't.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
One dimensional as he's limited to flight, super strength, super speed, durability, etc. He can amp his blows with magic or call down the lightning, but other than that, he doesn't do much that nobody else present can't.
True. But he does it better than the rest. I would say he is the strongest, except perhaps BRB, the fastest, and the most durable.

BA is the most one dimensional here, but his "dimensions" are off the charts. Arguably the strongest, most durable, and his speed is up there as well. BB may be the "weakest", but he definitely has potentially the most powerful offensive attack out of all of them. Still tough to choose a side. If I were a betting man, I'd go with team 1.
Wondy has those stop all bracers and pesky lasso. Plus images of BRB beating on a herald (Stardust) keeps flashing in my head.

Team 1 takes this
5.5/10

Beta Ray Bill/ Wonderwoman that hammer's a mother...

team 1...good fight

Originally posted by ares834
True. But he does it better than the rest. I would say he is the strongest, except perhaps BRB, the fastest, and the most durable. If he is the strongest, it's by about 5 tons. He isn't out classing. I'd say he is the mosy durable but WW and BRB are prolly just as durable when it comes to what he is dishing out, magic and blunt force. He is def not the fastest. WW is the fastest for sure. BA had problems keeping up with Jay Garrick while WW could keep up with Jesse QUICK. BRB also hits the hardest of anyone here. The hammer assures that. BB has the most powefful offensive weapon but it is matched by WW's defensive weapon.

Team 2 wins.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
WW is the fastest for sure.
BA has equaled Flash's speed while engaged with combat with him. He is the fastest.

Originally posted by ares834
BA has equaled Flash's speed while engaged with combat with him. He is the fastest. BA couldn't keep up with Jay Garrick. Wonder Woman on the other hand has Kept up with Jesse Quick and was Chosen to Aid the Fastest Flash in saving a town from Death. So um yeah. She is the fastest. And her reflexes are Superior to everyone here.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
BA couldn't keep up with Jay Garrick. Wonder Woman on the other hand has Kept up with Jesse Quick and was Chosen to Aid the Fastest Flash in saving a town from Death. So um yeah. She is the fastest. And her reflexes are Superior to everyone here. BA is stronger and more durable. He beats her face in.

Originally posted by quanchi112
BA is stronger and more durable. He beats her face in. Cept WW is stronger than MM and M already showed he was on Par with BA physically.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Cept WW is stronger than MM and M already showed he was on Par with BA physically.

You're not using ABC logic to argue that Wonder Woman is stronger than Black Adam, are you?

Originally posted by lightyeargee
BA couldn't keep up with Jay Garrick. Wonder Woman on the other hand has Kept up with Jesse Quick and was Chosen to Aid the Fastest Flash in saving a town from Death. So um yeah. She is the fastest. And her reflexes are Superior to everyone here. I don't know about the reflex's.BB has caught a sniper bullet in his thumb and index finger.BB has the best offensive power here but unfortunatly he doesn't use it as much as he should.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
You're not using ABC logic to argue that Wonder Woman is stronger than Black Adam, are you? I think they are all around the same.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
I think they are all around the same.


team 1 has the slight edge in overall durability, speed, skill, power, but
what makes this fight close is that one factor. That factor is Black Bolt's planet smashing attack. It makes the fight so much more interesting.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
team 1 has the slight edge in overall durability, speed, skill, power, but
what makes this fight close is that one factor. That factor is Black Bolt's planet smashing attack. It makes the fight so much more interesting. yeah he might injure his partner though

The proper strategy is send WW against Black Bolt, because she can block the scream and beat him in HtH, and BRB against BA. That'll get team 1 a quite solid win.


Originally posted by quanchi112
BA is stronger and more durable. He beats her face in.

Except she's shown herself capable of going hand to hand with people in his league all the time (or rather, she is in his league). Durability is an area where Marvels shine, but overall defense once you factor in bracers is up in the air. Strength is pretty darn close between them. Greater HtH skill on her part, plus weapons. Yadda yadda- they're a really good fight for each others, assuming she doesn't use the lasso to make him say his transformation word.


I don't get your stance on WW, personally. You constantly undersell her compared to how she actually performs.

Teams 2's offense is off the charts...

Sadly, Team 1's defense makes up for it.

I'm going with Team 1.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Teams 2's offense is off the charts...

Sadly, Team 1's defense makes up for it.

I'm going with Team 1.



same thought process here.

How does WW's Bracers block BB's scream which is a cone in one direction?Do the bracers somehow block her whole body?

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Cept WW is stronger than MM and M already showed he was on Par with BA physically. No, she isn't. Originally posted by Q99
The proper strategy is send WW against Black Bolt, because she can block the scream and beat him in HtH, and BRB against BA. That'll get team 1 a quite solid win.




Except she's shown herself capable of going hand to hand with people in his league all the time (or rather, she is in his league). Durability is an area where Marvels shine, but overall defense once you factor in bracers is up in the air. Strength is pretty darn close between them. Greater HtH skill on her part, plus weapons. Yadda yadda- they're a really good fight for each others, assuming she doesn't use the lasso to make him say his transformation word.


I don't get your stance on WW, personally. You constantly undersell her compared to how she actually performs. She's not on Superman or marvel's or Black Adam's level. I think she can make it interesting but goes down a majority to any of these guys.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, she isn't. She's not on Superman or marvel's or Black Adam's level. I think she can make it interesting but goes down a majority to any of these guys.




Yeah she is. Without her paraphernalia, she is a peer. With them, she is on their level.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, she isn't. She's not on Superman or marvel's or Black Adam's level. I think she can make it interesting but goes down a majority to any of these guys.

We've discussed this before, and I've never figured out how you can buy your own arguments.

She repeatedly has shown herself on the same level throughout the years.

Originally posted by Q99
We've discussed this before, and I've never figured out how you can buy your own arguments.

She repeatedly has shown herself on the same level throughout the years.



wait a darn second. i may be wrong here. she does go down to a majority of these guys!!!!! Zing!

Hm? If that's supposed to be a crude sexual reference the timing's off.

Anyway, CM and WW fought once, in War of the Gods as champions of opposing pantheons. They stalemated, and then a bit later, Billy's spell was broken by the lasso. And that's not the only time the lasso has de-shazamed him.

So the Marvels have an existing bad track record against Diana. And of course against Superman, he has a small edge, but most of the time they stalemate and she does have the odd win.

quanchi112 also has a history of underestimating her even when scans are presented.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm? If that's supposed to be a crude sexual reference the timing's off.

Anyway, CM and WW fought once, in War of the Gods as champions of opposing pantheons. They stalemated, and then a bit later, Billy's spell was broken by the lasso. And that's not the only time the lasso has de-shazamed him.

So the Marvels have an existing bad track record against Diana. And of course against Superman, he has a small edge, but most of the time they stalemate and she does have the odd win.


overdid it with "Zing" and my smiley faces huh? -_-

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
overdid it with "Zing" and my smiley faces huh? -_-

Yea, definitely.

WW sex references are overdone, but that many is overkill for a zing anyway.

Btw, on "Who's stronger, Martian Manhunter or Wonder Woman?"

Here. Batman says if she's out of control Superman is the only person on the planet who can be counted on to restrain her, and says this with J'onn J'onzz in the *room*.

Neither Superman nor Batman rate MM quite as highly in combat as they do WW.

She's equal or stronger than MM.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Yeah she is. Without her paraphernalia, she is a peer. With them, she is on their level. Around their level but not on it.

Originally posted by Q99
We've discussed this before, and I've never figured out how you can buy your own arguments.

She repeatedly has shown herself on the same level throughout the years. No, I think you are wrong here. These others are peers of Superman's while she isn't.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Cept WW is stronger than MM


lol no.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
How does WW's Bracers block BB's scream which is a cone in one direction?Do the bracers somehow block her whole body?

Yes. When she crosses them they create the Aegis Effect, a remnant of Zeus' shield.

Originally posted by quanchi112

No, I think you are wrong here. These others are peers of Superman's while she isn't.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

She is his peer as much as they are, it's official, been stated many times, Superman rates her as #2 on the planet, Batman rates her above J'onn, she's stalemated SM in combat on several occasions (as well as stalemating CM the only time they fought), plus has actual wins against Superman.


Repeating 'she's not a peer' doesn't change she's been demonstrated to be so as much as CM has and more than J'onn.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
What?

He's the most one dimensional person here, actually. And in any case, the "weak links" of either team are nothing to sneer at. It just sucks for Black Bolt because the defenses of Team 1 are pretty top tier between Stormbreaker and the Aegis bracers.

Say that again, and i swear to god.... I will burn my Simonson issues and post pictures.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
BRB and WW

agreed

Originally posted by Q99
Saying it doesn't make it so.

She is his peer as much as they are, it's official, been stated many times, Superman rates her as #2 on the planet, Batman rates her above J'onn, she's stalemated SM in combat on several occasions (as well as stalemating CM the only time they fought), plus has actual wins against Superman.


Repeating 'she's not a peer' doesn't change she's been demonstrated to be so as much as CM has and more than J'onn. She might be more skilled than Jonn is but power wise and strength wise he's above her just like Marvel, etc. She can't trade blows with any of these guys. The sooner you accept how she's written the better.

Bill & Diana takes it.

double post my bad

Originally posted by SumOfAllFear
which team wins?


no bfr


few points


WW is not physically stronger than Martian Manhunter.
WW is a legitimate top tier, class 100
WW would not beat Superman, Black Adam, or MM for a majority in the arena. She is on their level, because she can hang with/stalemate just about any of them. She is strong enough to physically hurt them, and durable enough to take some of their hardest shots. All that said, she is still not beating any of them for a majority, and that's what makes her a smidgen beneath those guys. They outclass her enough that she would never win more than 6/10 fights, so that's where a lot of people get the idea that she's not in their class. That's not true, she is in their class, but she's still a significant level beneath them.



As to the fight, Black Bolt and Black Adam take this fight.

Wonderwoman is the weak link in this fight. I heard someone earlier say that Black bolt was the weak link, and I almost crapped my pants...

Do you know anything about black bolt? He's physically gone blow for blow with Hulk and Gladiator, two beings that would soundly beat Diana. If he didn't lose to the two of them, he's not losing to Wonderwoman...

Even if he doesn't use his voice, he's got the strength and skill to beat Diana in H2H, he's being heavily underrated it seems. WW has the speed and slight skill advantage, but it's not enough to counter BB, especially if he decides to let out a small whisper...(and she is not blocking his scream with her bracers...not sure why anyone would even think she'd be able to)

BRB vs BA could go either way, though I tend to lean towards BA. Magical resistance makes his durability even better, and I believe he's physically stronger than BRB. BA is on par with Superman, who is physically superior to Thor or BRB. BRB has abstract abilities that he can use to put BA down, but it's not going to be an easy fight. Like I said this one can go either way, but after BB disposes of WW, if BRB decides to bring out the big guns (god moves), then BB will most likely break out his scream, and I'll take BB's scream over BRB's versatility any day.

tough fight, BB and BA ftw tho

whoops double post

WW is Physcially Stronger than PG and Supergirl and both would beat the crap out of Hulk.

WW admitted herself she stalemated SG with skill not strength. even the notion that PG or SG would "beat the crap" out of the hulk is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long while.

Diana basically admitted she's weaker and slower then PG in their recent fight.

So yeah.

Diana is a top tier mostly cause of her skill coupled with her speed. she has skill in spades. plus she's got some really neat toys.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Diana is a top tier mostly cause of her skill coupled with her speed. she has skill in spades. plus she's got some really neat toys.


Yup this about sums it up. She's by no means weak, she's like a semi planet mover, someone you want on the team if that needs to be done. So that is nothing to scoff at. She's got the lasso and tiara, skill for days (though there are people more skilled than her), and above average combat speed. All of these combined is what allows her to go up against guys like Supes and Cap M and not get totally beaten

Originally posted by lightyeargee
WW is Physcially Stronger than PG and Supergirl and both would beat the crap out of Hulk. If she traded blows with the Hulk he'd ko her very quickly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If she traded blows with the Hulk he'd ko her very quickly.


thats if he can tag her enuff. she is effin fast and can lay down some lumber herself. she'll prolly roll with his punches if he connects lessening the damage.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
thats if he can tag her enuff. she is effin fast and can lay down some lumber herself. she'll prolly roll with his punches if he connects lessening the damage. The point is she'd need her skill whereas someone like Thor or Superman can trade blows with him unlike WW who isn't up to their levels.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The point is she'd need her skill whereas someone like Thor or Superman can trade blows with him unlike WW who isn't up to their levels. you keep saying she isn't up to their levels. That is ridiculous. Prove that she can't trade blows with them.ZOOM WAS KNOCKING HER AROIND THE GLOBE. Hell yeah she can trade blows with any of them.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Diana basically admitted she's weaker and slower then PG in their recent fight.

So yeah. Um no she didn't. Flat out lie. She admitted most other powerful heroes get intimidated by her. Im ooking at the issue. No where did she say she was weaker than PG.

Originally posted by iceman24567
yeah he might injure his partner though

stop talking about sex...

Dave out guns everyone here interms of offensive output. BB's full scream is a match but Andy has insane durability feats. Omar smashes either of team 2.

Originally posted by quanchi112
She might be more skilled than Jonn is but power wise and strength wise he's above her just like Marvel, etc. She can't trade blows with any of these guys. The sooner you accept how she's written the better.

She has traded blows with CM and Superman often, both taking hits and inflicting damage in return.

You're just repeating something directly contradicted by the comics. Saying she can't do this or that is wrong when she actually has done those things on a regular basis.




What a pointless statement. She has her skills.

That's like saying "Batman's not on the joker's level because he needs his brains to track him down."

Skills are not some separate thing that aren't counted.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Um no she didn't. Flat out lie. She admitted most other powerful heroes get intimidated by her. Im ooking at the issue. No where did she say she was weaker than PG.

In Wonder Woman's own comic, in their recent fight, Diana's narration conceeds that PG is ATLEAST as strong and fast as her, AKA Wondy at her best = PG at her most mediocre.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
In Wonder Woman's own comic, in their recent fight, Diana's narration conceeds that PG is ATLEAST as strong and fast as her, AKA Wondy at her best = PG at her most mediocre.

How do you get "PG at her most mediocre" out of that? Sounds more like Wondy ~= PG.

Before you factor in skill, or gear. With which she absolutely schooled PG and then physically restrained her.

Originally posted by Q99
How do you get "PG at her most mediocre" out of that? Sounds more like Wondy ~= PG.

Before you factor in skill, or gear. With which she absolutely schooled PG and then physically restrained her. I was wondering the same thing. Wondy wasn't even fighting back and she was taking PGs angriest blows.

Before PG attacks with SS, WW knows it's her an gets her bracers up. PG only got a hit in once WW tries to do her talk and make peace thing. WW says She is strong and fast of Kara but I am something entirely different. And that PG slightly peaved off WW. No way you canvget anything from that but that WW is stronger and faster as she blocked many of PGs attacks. Only getting hit when she was trying to subdue and talk.WW also held PG with little effort once she got in close. WW is stronger, Faster, and better skilled than PG.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
In Wonder Woman's own comic, in their recent fight, Diana's narration conceeds that PG is ATLEAST as strong and fast as her, AKA Wondy at her best = PG at her most mediocre.

Gail Simone addressed that text over at the CBR boards. She did not write Diana as admitting Powergirl is stronger than her. Ms. Simone's intention was to show Diana assessing PG as a serious threat. She in no way means that WW at her best is equal to PG at her most mediocre. And if you read the rest of the fight, that should be clear. PG is was strong as WW, but she was outclassed when WW got serious.

In addition, even without clarification from the author, no person who speaks English as their first language would come up with the interpretation that you just did. That is not the normal usage of that phrase. Also, your slower comment has no foundation at all.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Gail Simone addressed that text over at the CBR boards. She did not write Diana as admitting Powergirl is stronger than her. Ms. Simone's intention was to show Diana assessing PG as a serious threat. She in no way means that WW at her best is equal to PG at her most mediocre. And if you read the rest of the fight, that should be clear. PG is was strong as WW, but she was outclassed when WW got serious.

In addition, even without clarification from the author, no person who speaks English as their first language would come up with the interpretation that you just did. That is not the normal usage of that phrase. Also, your slower comment has no foundation at all.

Uh-huh. I never give two shits what a writer says about interpretation. It's generally just a last ditch effort to avoid a shitstorm for what they actually wrote.

Makes sense I guess, I mean it's not like "at least" means "at the least" which is... you know, the least. If someone is, at the least as strong and fast as you, then that means at the most they ARE STRONGER AND FASTER then you.

Methinks your english needs brushing up.

Wonder Woman had an advantage over a Powergirl who's mind was being messed with, when they stood there trying to trade blows. Up until that point PG had the advantage. We all know just trying to stand there and H2H Wonder Woman is not the way to go for anyone.

team 1

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Uh-huh. I never give two shits what a writer says about interpretation. It's generally just a last ditch effort to avoid a shitstorm for what they actually wrote.

Makes sense I guess, I mean it's not like "at least" means "at the least" which is... you know, the least. If someone is, at the least as strong and fast as you, then that means at the most they ARE STRONGER AND FASTER then you.

Methinks your english needs brushing up.

Wonder Woman had an advantage over a Powergirl who's mind was being messed with, when they stood there trying to trade blows. Up until that point PG had the advantage. We all know just trying to stand there and H2H Wonder Woman is not the way to go for anyone.

Considering that there was not one grammatically correct sentence in your post, I do not think you should be advising anyone to brush up on their English.

And just to recap, you don't care when the writer tells you what she meant in a particular scene. You would just rather make up your own interpretation and run with? That makes a lot of sense to me/

There are plenty of ways to interpret that statement, all without butchering the English language. Have you ever considered that WW was assessing PG's abilities on the whole? What I mean is that the "at least" reference isn't about PG's strength and speed possibly being greater, but that she might possess other traits equal to WW. For example, she's at least as strong and fast could imply that she could also be as durable, etc.

The point is your interpretation is not necessarily the correct one. And given clarification from the writer herself, I am confident in saying that your interpretation is NOT the correct one. Nothing in their fight indicates that PG > WW - not even the text.

So specifically pointing out speed and strength means she's factoring in other attributes? That makes sense. I also fail to see how understanding Wonder Womans clear cut statement can be seen as butchering the English language.

It's strange you'd bring up my interpretation then make a completely wild claim that isn't even backed up on panel, unlike mine, which is clear as day and easily understandable.

"She's atleast as strong and fast as I am" easy sentence to understand, as is it's intent. Powergirl is, at the least, as strong as Wonder Woman.

Hmmm, interesting.

Team 1.

Black Adam wins. He could take out all 3 with ease.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
So specifically pointing out speed and strength means she's factoring in other attributes? That makes sense. I also fail to see how understanding Wonder Womans clear cut statement can be seen as butchering the English language.

It's strange you'd bring up my interpretation then make a completely wild claim that isn't even backed up on panel, unlike mine, which is clear as day and easily understandable.

"She's atleast as strong and fast as I am" easy sentence to understand, as is it's intent. Powergirl is, at the least, as strong as Wonder Woman.

Obviously it's not a clear cut statement because there are different ways to interpret it. She was sizing up her opponent and determining how their various stats compared with each other. If PG were stronger, WW would have said that.

There was not a wild claim in my post. It's actually quite reasonable. You're just not able to comprehend it.

Also, your statement isn't backed up on panel because there is not a single indication that PG is stronger than WW. Not one.

Your last sentence is the only one thus far that is accurate. She is as strong as WW. You can derive no more from that statement. Nothing on panel indicates otherwise and the writer also told you as much.

And your grammar is still atrocious.

Team 1.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Obviously it's not a clear cut statement because there are different ways to interpret it. She was sizing up her opponent and determining how their various stats compared with each other. If PG were stronger, WW would have said that.

There was not a wild claim in my post. It's actually quite reasonable. You're just not able to comprehend it.

Also, your statement isn't backed up on panel because there is not a single indication that PG is stronger than WW. Not one.

Your last sentence is the only one thus far that is accurate. She is as strong as WW. You can derive no more from that statement. Nothing on panel indicates otherwise and the writer also told you as much.

And your grammar is still atrocious.

No, your trying to create different ways to interpret it to suit you. Taking what she says on panel, my assumption is the most likely one. That she isolates two characteristics in her narration makes it highly unlikely she was factoring in other aspects.

By your own logic your claims are ridiculous, as there isn't anything on-panel supporting your stance. That statement was only in reference to speed and strength. If it was factoring in other areas we wouldn't have gotten a page directly after of Wonder Woman sizing up Powergirls fighting style. Prior to the ground fighting it was pure slugfest, in which Diana could not get an advantage over Powergirl despite her enchanted items and would only have gotten a read on her speed and strength.

It's a comic book debate over the net. I'm not exactly bothered with grammar.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
No, your trying to create different ways to interpret it to suit you. Taking what she says on panel, my assumption is the most likely one. That she isolates two characteristics in her narration makes it highly unlikely she was factoring in other aspects.

By your own logic your claims are ridiculous, as there isn't anything on-panel supporting your stance. That statement was only in reference to speed and strength. If it was factoring in other areas we wouldn't have gotten a page directly after of Wonder Woman sizing up Powergirls fighting style. Prior to the ground fighting it was pure slugfest, in which Diana could not get an advantage over Powergirl despite her enchanted items and would only have gotten a read on her speed and strength.

It's a comic book debate over the net. I'm not exactly bothered with grammar.

(1) Your assumption is not the most likely one as we already have evidence that it is not correct. The writer told you.

(2) Wrong again. The entire last sequence of the battle was all about how, although PG is strong and fast, she is NOT an Amazon. She does not have Diana's skill or training. Taken in that context, what I claim makes sense. In the heat of battle, Diana was sizing up her opponent. "She's at least as strong and as fast." WW is the greatest warrior in the DCU. She knows how to assess her opponents. She was merely stating what is obvious: PG is a physical match for Diana. That is where the "at least" comes in to play.

(3) Perhaps you missed the part where Diana wasn't really trying to fight Karen. It was not a slugfest. Diana was trying to reason with her. The moment she got serious, PG didn't land another hit.

(4) I beg to differ. Your last post was infinitely better than your previous attempts

We can spin this all day long but there is absolutely nothing that you can point to in that fight that suggests PG is stronger or faster than WW. We have the author telling you as much and we have the ease with which Diana handled her at the end as evidence that.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
So specifically pointing out speed and strength means she's factoring in other attributes? That makes sense. I also fail to see how understanding Wonder Womans clear cut statement can be seen as butchering the English language.

It's strange you'd bring up my interpretation then make a completely wild claim that isn't even backed up on panel, unlike mine, which is clear as day and easily understandable.

"She's atleast as strong and fast as I am" easy sentence to understand, as is it's intent. Powergirl is, at the least, as strong as Wonder Woman. Problem with the way you are trying to interpret it is that when Wonder Woman uses no Skill, Just strength and Speed She matches PG. She was so fast coming all the way from Canada, that Not even PG with her enhanced Senses could get out of the way or block. On the other hand, Wondy, could block PG, and even move out of the way as they fought at Superspeeds. So saying PG is at least as strong and fast could mean many things but, shown on panel, She was no where near as fast. And she got schooled in hand to hand.

Team one takes the majority, and yes Diana is Johns superior. Its been proven many times.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Problem with the way you are trying to interpret it is that when Wonder Woman uses no Skill, Just strength and Speed She matches PG. She was so fast coming all the way from Canada, that Not even PG with her enhanced Senses could get out of the way or block. On the other hand, Wondy, could block PG, and even move out of the way as they fought at Superspeeds. So saying PG is at least as strong and fast could mean many things but, shown on panel, She was no where near as fast. And she got schooled in hand to hand.

All Wonder Woman accomlished was that one hit. PG punched her to Canada and dodged a point-blank lasso swing, proceeding to knee Wonder Woman before she could react.

Wonder Woman was being dominated until it went pure H2H, where Wonder Woman only pulled out the win due to skill.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
All Wonder Woman accomlished was that one hit. PG punched her to Canada and dodged a point-blank lasso swing, proceeding to knee Wonder Woman before she could react.

Wonder Woman was being dominated until it went pure H2H, where Wonder Woman only pulled out the win due to skill. Um, LOL. WW wasn't even trying to fight. She was seriously trying to do her peace thing. The minute she got serious, she dominated PG, and no amount of skill can make anyone get a win on a powerful Krytonian. It was power and skill. WW treated PG easily once she ot ticked.

Honestly it seemed like a back and fourth to me before the end part.

BB/BA wins.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Um, LOL. WW wasn't even trying to fight. She was seriously trying to do her peace thing. The minute she got serious, she dominated PG, and no amount of skill can make anyone get a win on a powerful Krytonian. It was power and skill. WW treated PG easily once she ot ticked.


Except for the whole " I won't let her use me as a punching bag" thing. Not to mention she only got the advantage over PG when she was being severely mindscrewed. Until then she could barely get a hit in.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Except for the whole " I won't let her use me as a punching bag" thing. Not to mention she only got the advantage over PG when she was being severely mindscrewed. Until then she could barely get a hit in. Except When WW and WG were fighting ZBP, they tossed him like a rag dollwhere as PG nvr did that and she was with SG and Superman. SG recently matched PG and WW has out classed SG in strength. When SG really didn't know how to hold back. Also PG was being mind ****ed the whole fight. Which is why WW was holding back. You think the fight would have lasted more than mere seconds if WW was blood lusted? PG would have been as good as dead. Look how WW kneeded PG's face. Brutal

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Except When WW and WG were fighting ZBP, they tossed him like a rag dollwhere as PG nvr did that and she was with SG and Superman. SG recently matched PG and WW has out classed SG in strength. When SG really didn't know how to hold back. Also PG was being mind ****ed the whole fight. Which is why WW was holding back. You think the fight would have lasted more than mere seconds if WW was blood lusted? PG would have been as good as dead. Look how WW kneeded PG's face. Brutal


ZBP?

SG didn't match Powergirl. Supergirl + the JLA matched Powergirl. Look how PG headbutted WW through the aegis and obviously hurt her. Look how PG punched WW to Canada. Look how PG easily dodged WW's lasso and put her on her ass.Brutal.

Pg was barely affected by the mindscrew in the beginning stages of the fight. It was only on the ground, when the mindscrew took full effect, that WW even began to come near winning that fight.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
ZBP?

SG didn't match Powergirl. Supergirl + the JLA matched Powergirl. Look how PG headbutted WW through the aegis and obviously hurt her. Look how PG punched WW to Canada. Look how PG easily dodged WW's lasso and put her on her ass.Brutal.

Pg was barely affected by the mindscrew in the beginning stages of the fight. It was only on the ground, when the mindscrew took full effect, that WW even began to come near winning that fight. And every thing you say PG did was before WW decided to not be slightly peeved.

Note how the being punched to Canada caused Wonder Woman to go "Huh" and brush it off, then hit back just as hard, and note how WW also knocked her on her butt.

They both seemed to go back and forth in the early portions of the fight and while WW wasn't winning, she wasn't losing either.

Originally posted by Q99
Note how the being punched to Canada caused Wonder Woman to go "Huh" and brush it off, then hit back just as hard, and note how WW also knocked her on her butt.

They both seemed to go back and forth in the early portions of the fight and while WW wasn't winning, she wasn't losing either.

She was losing. PG clearly had the advantage. Also, considering WW had such a huge run up and clearly was peeved her punch didn't seem as hard as PG's. Also the lack of effect may have been becasue it looks like the hit that sent her to Canada was one that landed on her bracers or while they were crossed. In contrast, PG took that hit full on and was barely phased.

Also, the scan you posted shows PG wasn't even serious with the Canada punch.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
She was losing. PG clearly had the advantage. Also, considering WW had such a huge run up and clearly was peeved her punch didn't seem as hard as PG's. Also the lack of effect may have been becasue it looks like the hit that sent her to Canada was one that landed on her bracers or while they were crossed. In contrast, PG took that hit full on and was barely phased.

Also, the scan you posted shows PG wasn't even serious with the Canada punch. How could she be losing if she wasn't fighting. LOL. Are you paying attention to what you are saying. LOL. Wondy Pwned PG when they were fighting at Superspeeds. PG was winning when Wondy was being used a a punching bag and was trying to reason with Kara. Also, you know there was some PIS in the fight because even in the JLA it was said that Wondy Never misses with the Lasso. Plus the lasso only need to touch to get the soul suck in. Don't miss the point of the story. Wondy=PG in strength, speed, and durability. Wondy>>>>>PG when it comes to an actual fight.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
She was losing. PG clearly had the advantage.

Not so clear if there's disagreement on it. She wasn't hurt and she was getting in strong blows that we know PG really felt too, at least as much as she felt the ones PG did.





No, the Canada one was un-blocked. When she blocks something with her crossed bracers there's no knock-back (as seen in the page where PG does a full body charge similar to the Canada one which is blocked by them, and then does the head butt).




Which didn't cause Diana any real pain, and we know WW was just sending warnings too.

*Neither of them were hurt* during this section. No one was losing, they were knocking each other back and fourth but they were both in good shape and got, at best, maybe bruising and that sort of thing, superficial wounds. Nor was there a positional advantage, PG was getting hit back several times too.


I think it's very hard to call someone 'losing' when they're giving their fair share of good hits and not hurt or in a real disadvantageous position, especially when she was jumped at the beginning of the fight.


Yea, she's not working over PG until the end, but it's clearly written much more as an "exchange of hits back and forth" and she never thinks she's disadvantage nor does PG ever think she's winning. If neither combatant thinks PG is winning, and neither combatant is more hurt than the other, and neither combatant is in a different position from the other, how's that anything but a more or less even fight?

Originally posted by Q99
Not so clear if there's disagreement on it. She wasn't hurt and she was getting in strong blows that we know PG really felt too, as much as she felt the ones PG did.





No, the Canada one was un-blocked. When she blocks something with her crossed bracers there's no knock-back (as seen in the page where PG does a full body charge similar to the Canada one which is blocked by them, and then does the head butt).




Which didn't cause Diana any real pain, and we know WW was just sending warnings too.

*Neither of them were hurt* during this section. No one was losing, they were knocking each other back and fourth but they were both in good shape and got, at best, maybe bruising and that sort of thing, superficial wounds.


I think it's very hard to call someone 'losing' when they're giving their fair share of good hits and not hurt or in a real disadvantageous position, especially when she was jumped at the beginning of the fight.


Yea, she's not working over PG until the end, but it's clearly written much more as an "exchange of hits back and forth" and she never thinks she's disadvantage nor does PG ever think she's winning. If neither combatant thinks PG is winning, and neither combatant is more hurt than the other, and neither combatant is in a different position from the other, how's that anything but a more or less even fight?

Fair enough on the hit.

The only hits Wonder Woman made in the fight is one punch and the return hit from Canada. After that she gets beaten on and has her lasso dodged point-blank and retaliated before she can block.

That is not a back and forth fight. That is being dominated. She only gained an advanage when it became a contest of skill. If she was PG's equal in strength, and equipped with mystical items, she would not have been dominated that hard.

I'm not saying that PG is miles beyond WW, but that fight showed she is her superior as far as strength and speed go.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Fair enough on the hit.

The only hits Wonder Woman made in the fight is one punch and the return hit from Canada. After that she gets beaten on and has her lasso dodged point-blank and retaliated before she can block.

That is not a back and forth fight. That is being dominated. She only gained an advanage when it became a contest of skill. If she was PG's equal in strength, and equipped with mystical items, she would not have been dominated that hard.

I'm not saying that PG is miles beyond WW, but that fight showed she is her superior as far as strength and speed go. Hell no. If that were the case, she would have said, PG is stronger and faster than me. If PG were faster, then she would have been able to doge wondy's return blitz, and PG wouldn't have been dominated so when wondy fought back; PG couldn't even land a hit. How do you miss someone so completely if you are faster than them?

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Hell no. If that were the case, she would have said, PG is stronger and faster than me. If PG were faster, then she would have been able to doge wondy's return blitz, and PG wouldn't have been dominated so when wondy fought back; PG couldn't even land a hit. How do you miss someone so completely if you are faster than them?

How does anyone hit Flash? Hitting someone doesn't prove you're as fast as them.

Also "Atleast as strong and fast" leaves the possibilty for being stronger. Considering the ownage Pg was handing out, it's very likely.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
How does anyone hit Flash? Hitting someone doesn't prove you're as fast as them.

Also "Atleast as strong and fast" leaves the possibilty for being stronger. Considering the ownage Pg was handing out, it's very likely. What I"m trying to figure out is how PG was owning anyone when Wondy clearly is trying to reason with Kara. Please explain how you got pwing out of that? Wondy was never KO'd, Never hurt with any lasting injury, Wondy was never even slowed down. So what pwning are you refering to? Help me out and tell me which part. I missed it.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
What I"m trying to figure out is how PG was owning anyone when Wondy clearly is trying to reason with Kara. Please explain how you got pwing out of that? Wondy was never KO'd, Never hurt with any lasting injury, Wondy was never even slowed down. So what pwning are you refering to? Help me out and tell me which part. I missed it.

Smashing someone into pavement is trying to reason with them? She tried fighting and was repelled. She tried reason and got shot down. She tried magic, since force was beyond her, and got owned.

Powergirls hits visibly drew blood. While WW may have been alright at the time, had the fight continued in the style it was going WW would have been put down. Don' forget, even as she dropped a bus on WW's head, Powergirl was holding back "I don't want to do this".

Originally posted by Martian_mind

The only hits Wonder Woman made in the fight is one punch and the return hit from Canada. After that she gets beaten on and has her lasso dodged point-blank and retaliated before she can block.

She also hits PG at the end of the previous issue. So, three hits total, less than Karen but still a significant amount.

Also, she stops to talk, letting PG get another free hit, and also pauses to rescue a bus full of people. WW's distracted by other stuff, PG thinks she's a villain throughout (Briefly starting to shake it off due to the rescue before the kids again refocus her emotions).



She only gained an advantage when she began fighting back, which she was only doing intermittently in the fight, but she did get several good hits anyway.

Nor was she, y'know, hurt, and what hits she delivered were noted as being powerful, so she wasn't being physically outmatched in stats at the least, she was just being the less aggressive of the two.




I'm saying that's a major stretch when she was being diplomatic, PG was fighting as if she was a real foe, she gave PG several free shots, she hit PG back with attacks Karen noted were powerful, and at no point did they go muscle-to-muscle or speed to speed.


You simply can't get that conclusion on their respective power from what we saw.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Smashing someone into pavement is trying to reason with them? She tried fighting and was repelled. She tried reason and got shot down. She tried magic, since force was beyond her, and got owned.

Powergirls hits visibly drew blood. While WW may have been alright at the time, had the fight continued in the style it was going WW would have been put down. Don' forget, even as she dropped a bus on WW's head, Powergirl was holding back "I don't want to do this".
Right and dont' forget Wonder Woman was busy saving lives as the fight went on. Hmm. Seems you and I didn't read the same comic. I have to get the one you are reading because Wondy wasn't even fighting When Kara drew blood. Wondy was clearly faster than Kara. Wondy Blocked Kara's punches up close when she was ready. Twice. She even side stepped Kara at Superspeed. And then Owned Her. She drew blood from Kara witha heft Knee to Kara's chin. You don't beat a Kryptonian with skill. You do that only if you are evenly matched in strength and durablility. You are mixing up your own argument. If Kara was stronger and Faster than Skill would have only equalized the two. but Wondy when Using Skill easily Dominated Kara. That mean's they were at least equal before Wondy used any skill.

This is an easy way to explain it.

If PG>> Wondy in Speed and Strength

Then PG= Wondy with Speed Strength and Skill. That isn't what Happned

Wondy>>>>PG When Speed strength and Skill were applied.

That means Wondy=PG in strength and Durability

Originally posted by Q99
She also hits PG at the end of the previous issue. So, three hits total, less than Karen but still a significant amount.

Also, she *stops to talk*, letting PG get another free hit, and also pauses to rescue a bus full of people.



She only gained an advantage when she began fighting back, which she was only doing intermittently in the fight.

Nor was she, y'know, hurt, and what hits she did deliver were noted as being powerful, so she wasn't being physically outmatched at the least.




I'm saying that's a major stretch when she was being diplomatic, PG was fighting as if she was a real foe, she gave PG several free shots, she hit PG back with attacks Karen noted were powerful, and at no point did they go muscle-to-muscle or speed to speed.


You simply can't get that conclusion on their respective powers from what we saw.

I counted that hit at the end of the issue. She only made two.

A free hit that she had time to respond to with a lasso, that was dodged with ease.

Also, read her damn narration at the end of the preceding issue she wasn't thinking of calming Karen down at that point. The next we see them fighting, with WW not even once trying to calm Karen down, just getting the snot kicked out of her.

I think it's very reasonable to think that issue shows PG as Wondies slight physical superior.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
This is an easy way to explain it.

If PG>> Wondy in Speed and Strength

Then PG= Wondy with Speed Strength and Skill. That isn't what Happned

Wondy>>>>PG When Speed strength and Skill were applied.

That means Wondy=PG in strength and Durability

Yes, because speed, strength and skill are all of equal value and measure, and fighting is an equation.

Moron.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Yes, because speed, strength and skill are all of equal value and measure, and fighting is an equation.

Moron.
I'm glad you decided to insult me.Shows my character to be superior sinceI have no negative response for you. The point still remains. if Kara were superior to WW in those areas you suggest, Then Diana's Skill would only have been an equalizer. That is not the case. Her skill put her over the top so much so that she embarrassed PG. She simply side stepped Kara at Super Speed and won the fight. This cannot be disputed.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
I'm glad you decided to insult me.Shows my character to be superior sinceI have no negative response for you. The point still remains. if Kara were superior to WW in those areas you suggest, Then Diana's Skill would only have been an equalizer. That is not the case. Her skill put her over the top so much so that she embarrassed PG. She simply side stepped Kara at Super Speed and won the fight. This cannot be disputed.


As the last dregs of your credibility ooze away, I look at the time and decide that you are not worth debating past midnight with.

Batman defeats vastly stronger opponents through skill. Wonder Woman beat a slightly stronger opponent through skill, bragging about how it was skill.

Calling you a moron at this point is not an insult, merely a statement of fact.

See you in the morning!!!

Originally posted by lightyeargee
This is an easy way to explain it.

If PG>> Wondy in Speed and Strength

Then PG= Wondy with Speed Strength and Skill. That isn't what Happned

Wondy>>>>PG When Speed strength and Skill were applied.

That means Wondy=PG in strength and Durability

Actually it means logic >> you

Originally posted by Martian_mind
As the last dregs of your credibility ooze away, I look at the time and decide that you are not worth debating past midnight with.

Batman defeats vastly stronger opponents through skill. Wonder Woman beat a slightly stronger opponent through skill, bragging about how it was skill.

Calling you a moron at this point is not an insult, merely a statement of fact.

See you in the morning!!! Except Wonder Woman says compares PG to her. And Slightly stronger and Faster wouldn't get PG anywhere near the upper hand you are suggesting she had. See you later.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
nvr

Hey now, Nvr was much brighter then that.


If NVR has a sock at the moment it's my worthy opponent Q99.

Based on their recent fight, Power Girl has the edge in raw strength, and speed etc. Nice showing for Power Girl.

The fact that Diana even says that Power Girl is at the very least as strong and as fast as her, also helps support that stance. I don't see how anyone can logically argue that it doesn't.

Based on that fight, I'd roughly rank the male/female top dogs in DC in terms of strength as:

Superman > Captain Marvel =/> Power Girl > Martian Manhunter = Wonder Woman

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Power Girl > Martian Manhunter = Wonder Woman


Oh it's on *****.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Hey now, Nvr was much brighter then that.


If NVR has a sock at the moment it's my worthy opponent Q99.

lol, just quoting what I see.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Based on their recent fight, Power Girl has the edge in raw strength, and speed etc. Nice showing for Power Girl.

The fact that Diana even says that Power Girl is at the very least as strong and as fast as her, also helps support that stance. I don't see how anyone can logically argue that it doesn't.

Because the woman who actually put the words on the page told us that is not what she meant. Also, at no point in that fight did Diana peer to be out matched in terms of stats.

Team 1.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Based on their recent fight, Power Girl has the edge in raw strength, and speed etc. Nice showing for Power Girl.

The fact that Diana even says that Power Girl is at the very least as strong and as fast as her, also helps support that stance. I don't see how anyone can logically argue that it doesn't.

Based on that fight, I'd roughly rank the male/female top dogs in DC in terms of strength as:

Superman > Captain Marvel =/> Power Girl > Martian Manhunter = Wonder Woman
This isn't quite right.

Superman is Stronger than All. True. The only reason Cap Marvel Can hang with Supers ,his because is Durability is >>>>>>> Everyone else. And he has an insane Healing factor to boot.

Martian Manhunter is in fact the only one of them all that can Match Superman Blow for Blow and strength for strength. It's just that he can only sustain it for so long. He amps his physical stats thru molecular manipulation of his body. Pretty much how he works all of his physical powers. That's why he doesn't stay human for for ever or phased for ever. It takes a toll after a while. When he reverts to his regular strength, he's somewhere below the others but not much.

Wonder Woman and Powergirl and Captain Marvel are probably all in the sam area when it comes to Strenght.

WW is Faster than the other two.
CM is more durable than the other two.
And PG is a good mix of Fast and Durable

BB/BA wins.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
This isn't quite right.

Superman is Stronger than All. True. The only reason Cap Marvel Can hang with Supers ,his because is Durability is >>>>>>> Everyone else. And he has an insane Healing factor to boot.

Martian Manhunter is in fact the only one of them all that can Match Superman Blow for Blow and strength for strength. It's just that he can only sustain it for so long. He amps his physical stats thru molecular manipulation of his body. Pretty much how he works all of his physical powers. That's why he doesn't stay human for for ever or phased for ever. It takes a toll after a while. When he reverts to his regular strength, he's somewhere below the others but not much.

Wonder Woman and Powergirl and Captain Marvel are probably all in the sam area when it comes to Strenght.

WW is Faster than the other two.
CM is more durable than the other two.
And PG is a good mix of Fast and Durable

Whaaa?

Captain Marvel routinely stalemates Superman when they fight. DC has considered them to be equals in terms of strength in the general sense since they bought the rights to him. Superman has the greater versatility and can amp, but Captain Marvel has magic and durability plus a crazy healing factor. Strength wise, nothing has been shown that under normal levels Superman is Cap's superior based on their mutual showings against one another. And blow for blow, Captain Marvel does better than J'onn has and that's without magically amping his fists.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Whaaa?

Captain Marvel routinely stalemates Superman when they fight. DC has considered them to be equals in terms of strength in the general sense since they bought the rights to him. Superman has the greater versatility and can amp, but Captain Marvel has magic and durability plus a crazy healing factor. Strength wise, nothing has been shown that under normal levels Superman is Cap's superior based on their mutual showings against one another. And blow for blow, Captain Marvel does better than J'onn has and that's without magically amping his fists.

Captain Marvel hits the same as Wonder Woman according to Superman. Hitting power and Lifting power are different. Superman is superior to CM when it comes to lifting. Cm is not Superman's equal.