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Located on planet Kamino Exar Kun is in the clone facility Starkillier confronts him who will win.

Galen does.

Marek wins this.

Galen wins this.

Seriously people? How would Galen win this? Exar is more skilled and as powerful.

As powerful? I don't see how you reached that conclusion.

And more skilled? Galen did very well against Shaak Ti and beat Darth Vader (who is obviously extremely skilled.)

Yeah I don't see how Exar is so far up there above Marek. Maybe his mastery of the double-blade will give him trouble, but the boy's adaptable to even that (Proxy). He's a titan in the Force too. Without his amulets, I don't see Exar living.

I'd give the nod to Galen in the force and all out categories. But at this point in time I'm not quite sure if he would take Exar in a duel.

Originally posted by Enyalus
As powerful? I don't see how you reached that conclusion.

And more skilled? Galen did very well against Shaak Ti and beat Darth Vader (who is obviously extremely skilled.)

Yea, but being the best Sith Lord of his era, I'd think he'd be more powerful than Shaak Ti or Vader.

Exar takes it, imo.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but being the best Sith Lord of his era, I'd think he'd be more powerful than Shaak Ti or Vader.
Well, definitely more powerful than Shaak Ti. But more skilled? Dunno about that.

i'm trying to remember an impressive force feat exar has displayed that is actually quantifiable and would put him on galen's level

only thing that comes to mind is freezing the senate chamber, a feat that no one is sure can even be used in a combat situation.

galen takes it.

His Force Scream outdoes Vader's? lol

Maybe I just underestimate Marek, but I think freezing the Senate, killing the Sith Wyrm, slaying Vodo, being declared officially better than Ulic (who was a beast in his own right), and being able to rip Luke-post-DE from his body with the help of a very inexperienced Kyp is evidence enough to say he'd win. That's just my quick thought though. I'll expand later.

Slayed vodo? What was vodo's greatest combat feat?

Marek has beaten vader, who alone is already a beast in TK and has demonstrated more devastating combat feats than Kun.

he was old and well respected.

apparently that equates to really strong

i dont get the correlation either

I'd bring up him blocking lightsabers with a wooden stick....but after TOR "Hope" trailer with that female Jedi blocking lightsabers bare-handed, it doesn't seem so impressive.

What has Kun done in combat against a quantifiable opponent?

and this:


This mean jack diddly. You can't quantify those other sith lords, so being more powerful than them....

Originally posted by truejedi
What has Kun done in combat against a quantifiable opponent?
How about Ulic? Or does he fall under the not quantifiable category?

he killed ulic with the amulets, right? I was working with the assumption that Exar doesn't have the amulets here, since they are kind of like saying "lol, N drains him instantly".

Exar, and he does it with or without the amulets. Seriously, could somebody remind me what was so incredibly powerful about them again? He's displayed vastly superior abilities without them, such as draining the entire Massassi race and freezing hundreds of thousands of senators (both grander in scale at the very least).

they killed ulic, his single greatest combat feat, and could be fired several times a second, with more power each time. The unblockable weapon.

Except that Kun never killed Ulic...

Kun seemed to have the advantage in their duel, then Ragnos appeared and crowned Exar Dark Lord of the Sith because he was more powerful, with Ulic as his apprentice. All without any combat help from the amulet or gauntlets (what gauntlets?)

Exar Kun's feats are a little hard to quantify since the levels of the characters he beat are hard to determine.

In terms of Exar Kun's combat abilities, I'd say he's an unknown, which to some people (hint Janus Marius) means that he's uber.

According to the Star Wars Insider magazine, Marek was "an extremely powerful and primal Force-user." Marek abused the Force and it is likely that Kun wouldn't be able to defeat a Force-user like Marek.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i'm trying to remember an impressive force feat exar has displayed that is actually quantifiable and would put him on galen's level

only thing that comes to mind is freezing the senate chamber, a feat that no one is sure can even be used in a combat situation.

galen takes it.

It wouldn't make much difference anyway, since when he froze the senate chamber the Jedi were unaffected.

Originally posted by truejedi
he killed ulic with the amulets, right?

Wrong.

Exar didn't kill Ulic. Ulic was blinded to the Force by Nomi Sunrider.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'd bring up him blocking lightsabers with a wooden stick....but after TOR "Hope" trailer with that female Jedi blocking lightsabers bare-handed, it doesn't seem so impressive.

Yeah, she was awesome.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'd bring up him blocking lightsabers with a wooden stick....but after TOR "Hope" trailer with that female Jedi blocking lightsabers bare-handed, it doesn't seem so impressive.
Nejaa Halcyon, Coran Horn's grandfather, could also absorb a lightsaber's power like that Jedi.

BTW Galen wins.

Originally posted by ares834
Nejaa Halcyon, Coran Horn's grandfather, could also absorb a lightsaber's power like that Jedi.

BTW Galen wins. In that situation it was controlled and he had his hands around it, he wasn't blocking a thrust and holding it back with merely a single palm. and make the saber look like it was going to break in half, I mean really?

I'm not sure it was actually breaking... maybe destabalizing or maybe they did it because it looks cool or... **** it. It makes no sense.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not sure it was actually breaking... maybe destabalizing or maybe they did it because it looks cool or... **** it. It makes no sense. No it doesn't. At all. Even if the saber managed to destabalise I would akin that to more like it shorting out? Or looking like the unstable effect from TFU.

Originally posted by mattatom
No it doesn't. At all. Even if the saber managed to destabalise I would akin that to more like it shorting out? Or looking like the unstable effect from TFU.

Well I think that the containment field was rupturing.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Well I think that the containment field was rupturing. In that case surely it would be all the way along? Like splinters in glass when its about to shatter?

Unless there was a node (or antenode (sp?)) of some kind at that point; there's really no way to know how a "containment field" works, and harmonics sounds science-fiction-y so it is extremely plausible.

What?

Originally posted by mattatom
In that situation it was controlled and he had his hands around it, he wasn't blocking a thrust and holding it back with merely a single palm. and make the saber look like it was going to break in half, I mean really?

That could simply mean she's better at energy absorption than Nejaa was.

Exar Kun took Luke Skywalker soul, I think that speaks for it's self. i think people are forgetting that Exar was trained in sith magic and alchemy w/guanlets that's moe than enough to beat galen imo.

He took his soul with the help of one of the most powerful raw force users in the entire mythos.

Let's not gleam over that, shall we?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He took his soul with the help of one of the most powerful raw force users in the entire mythos.
No. Exar Kun's body didn't exist.

biscuits

Originally posted by truejedi
they killed ulic, his single greatest combat feat, and could be fired several times a second, with more power each time. The unblockable weapon.

What the hell are you talking about...?

Exar and Ulic reached a stalemate in a lightsaber fight. Ragnos popped up and declared Kun to be the Dark Lord of the Sith. Considering that Ulic (later) was capable of fending off an enraged Jedi without having access to his force abilities any longer, this is quite impressive. Considering further that Kun did develop his double-bladed lightsaber (and became even more dangerous in lightsaber duels) after this incident, he can't be too bad with that weapon.

But how does it matter? Kun has access to so many offensive Dark Side abilities that Galen is going to be force raped - no matter if Kun gets his amulets or not.

starkiller is pretty ba and powerful, but exar kun is just out of his league

No, not really. Kun's more knowledgeable and more refined in his power, but "out of (Galen's) league" is an overstatement. You don't legitimately defeat one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history and get downplayed.

you may be right, but im still saying that exar kun will win

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You don't legitimately defeat one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history and get downplayed.
Meh. Is suited Vader really one of the most powerful Sith Lords, though? Nadd (from statements), Kun, Nihilus, Bane, Caedus, Krayt, and even Dooku seem superior.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Meh. Is suited Vader really one of the most powerful Sith Lords, though? Nadd (from statements), Kun, Nihilus, Bane, Caedus, Krayt, and even Dooku seem superior. In Force prowess, yes he's one of the tops. Not the THE top. Not even Top Five. But he's up there. Palpatine, Bane, Caedus, Nihilus and likely Krayt are all above him. I don't feel Dooku though, and i'm not overly familiar with Nadd.


Regardless. He was pretty friggin powerful and Marek defeated him. It's foolish to think Marek out of the league just because he never made it finals. He took down Darth Vader and stymied Palpatine. Kudos to him.


I feel now in a straight forward fight that Kun's got the experience and insanity (especially with amulets) to overwhelm Marek. But it won't be just a "Kay there I did it." Kun's losing some teeth.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I feel now in a straight forward fight that Kun's got the experience and insanity (especially with amulets) to overwhelm Marek. But it won't be just a "Kay there I did it." Kun's losing some teeth.
Ah. Word.

Galen redirected a falling star destroyer, beat one of the most powerful with of all time, and almost killed the most powerful sith of all time.

Galen didn't redirect a falling Star Destroyer - he slowed it down. He didn't beat one of the most powerful Sith of all time - because Vader isn't that. And he didn't almost kill the most powerful Sith of all time - because he didn't fight Kun. No, I'm kidding. The real reason is that Palpatine wasn't even scratched by Galen's Vegeta-like suicidesplosion.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Galen didn't redirect a falling Star Destroyer - he slowed it down. He didn't beat one of the most powerful Sith of all time - because Vader isn't that. And he didn't almost kill the most powerful Sith of all time - because he didn't fight Kun. No, I'm kidding. The real reason is that Palpatine wasn't even scratched by Galen's Vegeta-like suicidesplosion.

Sorry about the spelling errors in the below text; texting is more diffict Han typing.

Galen Marek did redirect a falling star destroyer since it did't fall on him, and in that case there wouldn't be much point in just slowing the star destroyer down.

Vader is ONE of the most powerful sith of all time.

Galen had Sidious at his mercy and later blocked Sidious's lighting with his hands while advancing towards Sidious when in ROTS Yoda couldn't advance against Sidious's Force lightning.

What has Exar Kun done to match Galen's feats?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Galen Marek did redirect a falling star destroyer since it did't fall on him, and in that case there wouldn't be much point in just slowing the star destroyer down.
The Star Destroyer fell. It would have skidded into him. Instead, he slowed its momentum so that it's skid stopped short of him. He slowed it down.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Vader is ONE of the most powerful sith of all time.
Don't play these semantics with me. As I already said, Nadd, Kun, Nihilus, Bane, Caedus, Krayt, and even Dooku seem superior.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Galen had Sidious at his mercy and later blocked Sidious's lighting with his hands while advancing towards Sidious when in ROTS Yoda couldn't advance against Sidious's Force lightning.
Galen didn't put a scratch on Sidious. Sidious was in no immediate danger of being killed by Galen.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What has Exar Kun done to match Galen's feats?
How about ripping Luke's soul out of his body? Or ripping dozens of Force-users' (Massassi) souls from their bodies? Or force draining the entire Massassi population of Yavin? Galen can't stop any of those attacks, especially considering he has zero knowledge or experience of dealing with them.

Originally posted by Enyalus

The Star Destroyer fell. It would have skidded into him. Instead, he slowed its momentum so that it's skid stopped short of him. He slowed it down.
Nah he redirected it so it would crash into the canon.
"The ship growled and squealed in metal torment. He was getting the hang of it; he could see how its course was slowly shifting. As wide across as his outstretched hand now, it was hitting the atmosphere at a steeper angle than he had intended, burning bright red and already gouting a trail of black smoke and sparkling debris."
"It was going to hit soon. A wild exodus of droids ran past him, fleeing the crash site. The TIE fighters it had launched raced ahead of the chaotic atmospheric waves it generated. He ignored them and concentrated on shifting ground zero as close to the cannon as he could."
"He was Darth Vader's secret servant, capable of moving Star Destroyers with nothing but his will-yet what else was he?"


Nadd, Krayt, Dooku? Really? What has Nadd ever done that puts him above Vader? Dooku was surpassed by Vader, hell he was completley outmatched by the inferior Anakin.


Sidious was at one point at Galen marek's mercy.


With Kyp's help.

When did he do this?

It's a ritual. And if he can use it in combat why doesn't he?

Also Marek can reduce Stormtroopers to ash...

Originally posted by ares834
Nah he redirected it so it would crash into the canon.
Ah. I haven't read the novel, just the comic. I'll concede that.

Originally posted by ares834
Nadd, Krayt, Dooku? Really? What has Nadd ever done that puts him above Vader? Dooku was surpassed by Vader, hell he was completley outmatched by the inferior Anakin.
Nadd's power was what fueled all of his descendants' power - and his descendant, King Ommin, bound and drained one of the most powerful Jedi Masters of that era (Arca Jeth) with dark side energy webs. Additionally, using only Nadd's power, Queen Amanoa used Battle Meditation powerful enough to halt the Beast Riders attack at the Battle of Onderon. Nadd's sarcophagus alone was a Force nexus of Dark Side power. Hell, his tomb on Dxun made the entire moon tainted with the aura of the Dark Side (a helluva lot like Palpatine and Byss...except Nadd wasn't even alive and active.) He also knew every Force technique...Force Storm included.

And Dooku was beaten by a much superior Anakin, not inferior to Vader. That version of Anakin would absolutely throttle suited Vader, with ease. A much faster duelist, just as strong, and madly focused.

Originally posted by ares834
Sidious was at one point at Galen marek's mercy.
Positive? Explain what happens then, please, so I won't have to look.

Originally posted by ares834
With Kyp's help.
Yes. Because he's a 4,000 year old spirit without a body of his own...And Kyp was what, a 16 year old newbie with the Force?

Originally posted by ares834
When did he do this?
Junior Jedi Knights: The Golden Globe.

Originally posted by ares834
It's a ritual. And if he can use it in combat why doesn't he?
The ritual was so he could 'unleash his powerful spirit...to shed the chains of his mortal body and run rampant throughout the cosmos.' He only ordered that all of the Massassi be gathered in the temple. There's no indication that it took a great deal of time to drain them or that the draining was done in a ritual. Again, the ritual was so that, once the Massassi were drained, he would have ample power to separate his spirit from his body.

yeah he did redirect it, even in the game you'll notice that you can slightly move it around while you are playing

Vader was ONE of the most powerful sith lords in history. Of your list, only a few are superior to Vader. How is Krayt superior to Vader (or Galen, not that you claimed that he was)? Vader has shown a huge amount of impressive feats.

A lot of what Exar has done required rituals. With amulets Exar has a better chance, but without them or any other artifacts he's outmatched based on current knowledge of the combatants in a Force fight. In sabers it might go differently.

Good points though.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
How is Krayt superior to Vader (or Galen, not that you claimed that he was)? uhhh galen is superior because he defeated him...

Well, Galen wasn't a Sith Lord, which is why I didn't put him in the list. But yeah, Galen > suited Vader, too.

I don't have anything specifically pointing to Krayt being more powerful than suited Vader. I feel due to his lightsaber resistant armor, his two sabers instead of Vader's one, and his ability to use Force Lightning, that he'd beat Vader solidly in a straight fight. I'm not read-enough on Legacy in order to debate that, though, so feel free to disagree.

I don't have anything to add to the Exar and rituals thing. I've said what I will on it. Suffice to say, he does not need a ritual in order to Drain someone of the Force or their life or tear their soul out. And Galen has no defense against it, because he's completely unfamiliar with it.

Where and when did he do this Drain? And what are the specifics outlining it? All I can think of his draining of the Massassi people on Yavin 4. And for that he had a willing slave race under his thumb and his temples to enhance his power and aid with his experiments. I remember that little act destroyed his physical body.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Where and when did he do this Drain? And what are the specifics outlining it? All I can think of his draining of the Massassi people on Yavin 4. And for that he had a willing slave race under his thumb and his temples to enhance his power and aid with his experiments. I remember that little act destroyed his physical body.
What you're speaking of is the only drain I know of him doing. Although I don't remember reading anything about the temple enhancing his power or aiding with the drain. Yes, the slaves were willing. It doesn't change the fact that A) he knows the technique, B) he did it to thousands of them simultaneously, C) ....the act was intended to destroy his physical body. That's why he needed so many captives to drain.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Nadd's power was what fueled all of his descendants' power - and his descendant, King Ommin, bound and drained one of the most powerful Jedi Masters of that era (Arca Jeth) with dark side energy webs. Additionally, using only Nadd's power, Queen Amanoa used Battle Meditation powerful enough to halt the Beast Riders attack at the Battle of Onderon. Nadd's sarcophagus alone was a Force nexus of Dark Side power. Hell, his tomb on Dxun made the entire moon tainted with the aura of the Dark Side (a helluva lot like Palpatine and Byss...except Nadd wasn't even alive and active.)
Impressive. I haven't read those comics in ages so I'll give you that.

Obviously hyperbole. I also know that Nadd knew about the Force Storm technique but is their any indication that he could use it.


Doubt it. Vader has honed his mastery of the force to a degree than Anakin had never. Sure Anakin may be faster but it won't help him. Anyway, Dooku has yet to show any feats near Vader's level. Vader takes down several jedi at once, Dooku is captured by Pirates.

Also in SW Head to Head it claims Vader is more powerful than Yoda take that as you will.


"The apprentice stood over him for a moment with his lightsaber upraised. Its aqua light reflected in the eyes of the galaxy's Emperor as though it was the last thing he would ever see."
Palpatine was at Marek's mercy. Unfortently the dumb ass Kota decided it was a better idea that the Emperor stay alive.


IIRC Exar Kun possesed the body of Kyp, who has incredible potential. Infact the book implies it was entirely Kyp's power with Kun's knowledge.
"Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail."


Ok.


Proove that the ritual did not invlove him draining the Massassi. It only seems logical that since the Massassi died while he preformed the ritual thatbit was part of the ritual. And they were all willing to die for the ritual.

Originally posted by ares834
Obviously hyperbole. I also know that Nadd knew about the Force Storm technique but is their any indication that he could use it.
The TOTJ Companion states, "Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith Force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocron and tomes."

Which, when you think about it, is understandable. The guy did study directly from King Adas' holocron and Naga Sadow's spirit.

Originally posted by ares834
Doubt it. Vader has honed his mastery of the force to a degree than Anakin had never. Sure Anakin may be faster but it won't help him. Anyway, Dooku has yet to show any feats near Vader's level.
What do you have in mind, regarding Force feats aside from Force Choking a non-Force-sensitive from a possible few lightyears away?

Originally posted by ares834
Vader takes down several jedi at once, Dooku is captured by Pirates.
Dooku took down two Jedi Masters, Sora Bulq and Tholme at once - while fatigued. And Anakin and Obi-Wan, of course. If you want to go with low-feats, suited Vader was nearly killed by a Tuskan Raider after burying his first secret apprentice.

Originally posted by ares834
Also in SW Head to Head it claims Vader is more powerful than Yoda take that as you will.
I have no idea what that even is. A magazine or something? Is it canon?

Originally posted by ares834
IIRC Exar Kun possesed the body of Kyp, who has incredible potential. Infact the book implies it was entirely Kyp's power with Kun's knowledge.
"Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail."
In this scenario, Kun has a body...his own. Why won't he be able to duplicate what he does to Luke in Kyp's body, to Galen in Kun's own body?

Originally posted by ares834
Proove that the ritual did not invlove him draining the Massassi. It only seems logical that since the Massassi died while he preformed the ritual thatbit was part of the ritual. And they were all willing to die for the ritual.
I'm unsure what you want me to prove here. The ritual was to separate Kun's body from his spirit. In order to do that, he needed the combined power of all the Massassi he had gathered. Then he uses the Sith ritual to separate his spirit from his flesh. He drains them first - then the ritual commences:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Kun_suicide1.jpg

So, to answer your point...no, the ritual did not involve him draining the Massassi. But it did require him draining the Massassi.

Also, I don't know what that has to do with anything - it's irrefutable proof that he can Force Drain someone. Which was the whole point of bringing up the feat.

Also also....it doesn't look like he's wearing his gauntlets/amulets there, so no case for power amping can be made against him.

Exar Kun isn't standing up to Galen Marek in any kind of force dual.

Galen will beat him like he's an insolent child.

But Exar has teh ponytail.

Originally posted by Enyalus
So, to answer your point...no, the ritual did not involve him draining the Massassi. But it did require him draining the Massassi.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Also, I don't know what that has to do with anything - it's irrefutable proof that he can Force Drain someone. Which was the whole point of bringing up the feat. This brings up the same bone of contention made against Sadow for his star destroying and Nihilus for his Gigadrain; such a destructive technique, and he uses it... once. And unlike the other two, Kun did it at the last minute, on willing participants/slaves, not for the purpose of Draining his enemies, but to enhance himself. There's nothing to suggest that he can focus that technique on one powerful enemy. And if he can, the man is so absolutely forgetful, that he'd be killed before he gets around to it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

You're probably tired. Read it a few more times. It makes sense. I promise.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This brings up the same bone of contention made against Sadow for his star destroying and Nihilus for his Gigadrain; such a destructive technique, and he uses it... once.
I have a simple way of explaining the contention...plot. You can't have people running around using this kind of power repeatedly. Hell, even the Death Star was only fired once. Would someone try making that a point of contention, and if so, would you listen to them without laughing?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And unlike the other two, Kun did it at the last minute, on willing participants/slaves, not for the purpose of Draining his enemies, but to enhance himself. There's nothing to suggest that he can focus that technique on one powerful enemy.
Kun explains himself in the comic. Ulic contacts him via commlink while he's aboard a Jedi vessel en route to Yavin 4. Kun knows that all the Jedi are coming for him, and he admits that he cannot defeat all of them. Instead, he opted for becoming a spirit and taking another crack at it later....something goes wrong when the thousands of Jedi above Yavin use Force Sever, though. I see nothing wrong with what Kun tried to do. It was decent strategic thinking, knowing that he couldn't defeat them all at once.

Also, if he can do it to thousands of willing Force-sensitives, why can't he do it to one Sith-turned-Jedi apprentice? Generally, it takes more focus to affect an entire group rather than one individual.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And if he can, the man is so absolutely forgetful, that he'd be killed before he gets around to it.
I don't get it. lol

Originally posted by Enyalus
You're probably tired. Read it a few more times. It makes sense. I promise.


Originally posted by Enyalus
I have a simple way of explaining the contention...plot. You can't have people running around using this kind of power repeatedly. Hell, even the Death Star was only fired once. Would someone try making that a point of contention, and if so, would you listen to them without laughing?It's called PIS. The Death Star was given an excuse though. The other ones, Nihilus especially, are still ambiguous.


Originally posted by Enyalus
Kun explains himself in the comic. Ulic contacts him via commlink while he's aboard a Jedi vessel en route to Yavin 4. Kun knows that all the Jedi are coming for him, and he admits that he cannot defeat all of them. Instead, he opted for becoming a spirit and taking another crack at it later....something goes wrong when the thousands of Jedi above Yavin use Force Sever, though. I see nothing wrong with what Kun tried to do. It was decent strategic thinking, knowing that he couldn't defeat them all at once.Kay.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Also, if he can do it to thousands of willing Force-sensitives, why can't he do it to one Sith-turned-Jedi apprentice? Generally, it takes more focus to affect an entire group rather than one individual.Generally. But it's not the same thing. He's shown to have done the technique once, under very specific and controlled circumstances with very specific and anticipated results. Facing down against a very powerful opponent is not the same as draining a willing sacrificial populace. There are questions and variables.

1.) Can Kun perform the drain without compliance from his victims?
2.) Can he do it without the use of obelisks and bondage chains?
3.) Can he do it within the very few seconds he has when facing a one-on-one duel? I.e. can he can do it at well any time or any place?
4.) Is that drain different from the kind employed by Nihilus, Kreia, or Palpatine (each of those respectively different), and if so, how will that affect a direct combat scenario?
5.) Are the results of his type of drain always the same? I.e. Is transcension always the result, or are their others?
6.) Do the amount of people he can perform it affect said unknown results?


Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't get it. lol You're probably tired. Read it a few more times. It makes sense. I promise.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's called PIS. The Death Star was given an excuse though. The other ones, Nihilus especially, are still ambiguous.
Canon evidence yields the conclusion that while we only see it once, he has done it before -

"However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster."

That's per the KOTOR Campaign Guide, and is prior to mentioning his destruction of Katarr.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
1.) Can Kun perform the drain without compliance from his victims?
I'll ask again...why not? It's a Force Drain. Unless you have evidence to believe otherwise...
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
2.) Can he do it without the use of obelisks and bondage chains?
I don't know. I heard Exar liked it rough. Getting clawed up by Sylvar, the bondage chains...He might not be in the mood without the bondage chains.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
3.) Can he do it within the very few seconds he has when facing a one-on-one duel? I.e. can he can do it at well any time or any place?
In one panel, Exar tells the Massassi priest to summon the others. The next panel shows the Massassi coming into the temple. And the panel after that shows him already draining them.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
4.) Is that drain different from the kind employed by Nihilus, Kreia, or Palpatine (each of those respectively different), and if so, how will that affect a direct combat scenario?
Should it be different? Is there evidence for believing it's a different kind of drain? Remember, he's not using the drain in the ritual, he's using the drain for the ritual.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
5.) Are the results of his type of drain always the same? I.e. Is transcension always the result, or are their others?
No. He is very specific that he needs to drain the Massassi in order to have the strength to sunder his flesh from his spirit. The draining is the draining - for the power. The ritual is the ritual - to separate his body from his soul with that stolen power.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
6.) Do the amount of people he can perform it affect said unknown results?
Why is this a question? More beings = more Force being drained = more power being consumed...unless you're a Force prodigy like Galen, then maybe those thousands of Massassi being drained add up to one Galen Marek. But I doubt it.

How does Galen defend against it? This would be a foreign technique to him. He's never met the Emperor, and Vader doesn't know it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He rips up multiple pieces of wooden ramps and hurls them at Roan. Roan's forte is definitely not telekinesis nor, obviously, telekinetic defense. But Vader's struck 3 times by Roan's lightsaber in that duel, and Roan is hardly a Dooku in the saber department. Doesn't bode well for the Dooku/Suited Vader argument.
This is still Vader before he has gotten used to the suit. And the wounds Roan inflicted were superficial, however once Vader fully tapped into the dark side Roan was ****ed. Vader managed to rip up boards and fling them at a Jedi Knights at speeds faster than he can parry, this guy can deflect blaster bolts but is unable to stop Vader's "missles".

Aurra wasn't a failed padawan she was captured and sudeced to the dark side. And she is hardly weak afterall she managed to kill the Jedi Hero Sharad Hett. However, that's not the point. Vader was able to overload a lightsaber and his force push was so powerful that guard a hallway away were nearly knocked down even though he had not aimed it at them.


Vader was destroying Boba Fett, Boba only got the upper hand because Vader really wanted the head.


Ok?


We still don't know the conditions when he used it. He may have needed items such as the obalisk or perhaps he has to have time to preform it. We simply don't know enough about it to say it will give him a viable win over Galen.

Originally posted by ares834
This is still Vader before he has gotten used to the suit. And the wounds Roan inflicted were superficial, however once Vader fully tapped into the dark side Roan was ****ed. Vader managed to rip up boards and fling them at a Jedi Knights at speeds faster than he can parry, this guy can deflect blaster bolts but is unable to stop Vader's "missles".
Maybe because...they were pretty huge pieces being ripped up and tossed about? He gets hit by them initially by surprise. After that, it could be hard to recover.

Originally posted by ares834
Aurra wasn't a failed padawan she was captured and sudeced to the dark side. And she is hardly weak afterall she managed to kill the Jedi Hero Sharad Hett.
Forgot about this. Conceded.
Originally posted by ares834
However, that's not the point. Vader was able to overload a lightsaber and his force push was so powerful that guard a hallway away were nearly knocked down even though he had not aimed it at them.
And people like Bane can collapse the entire Rakatan stone Temple of the Ancients with their Force Push. So it's not that impressive in the scheme of things.

The lightsaber thing, I'm not sure how to deal with.

Originally posted by ares834
Vader was destroying Boba Fett, Boba only got the upper hand because Vader really wanted the head.
If you say so.

Originally posted by ares834
Ok?
Well you wanted proof he can rip souls out while in his own body, right? Instance provided.

Originally posted by ares834
We still don't know the conditions when he used it. He may have needed items such as the obalisk or perhaps he has to have time to preform it.
It seems like an awfully big leap to assume that it wasn't a Force Drain, especially when you don't have a valid reason for coming to that conclusion.

And if you want to continue being difficult, I'll just opt for Exar using Force Kill on Galen. He does it with a wave of his hand in a combat situation against Jedi Master Odan-Urr, after Odan was fully aware of and prepared for Exar being a Sith Lord and after resisting Odan's Force Sever (of which he was said to be the master of)....The technique would again be completely foreign to Starkiller.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Canon evidence yields the conclusion that while we only see it once, he has done it before -

"However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster."

That's per the KOTOR Campaign Guide, and is prior to mentioning his destruction of Katarr. I know, I was generalizing.


Originally posted by Enyalus
I'll ask again...why not? It's a Force Drain. Unless you have evidence to believe otherwise... And I'll ask again, can he? He's never shown to do it before this. Unless you have evidence to believe otherwise...

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't know. I heard Exar liked it rough. Getting clawed up by Sylvar, the bondage chains...He might not be in the mood without the bondage chains. Don't be glib.

Originally posted by Enyalus
In one panel, Exar tells the Massassi priest to summon the others. The next panel shows the Massassi coming into the temple. And the panel after that shows him already draining them. How much time passed within those panels? Would you say, 2 seconds?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Should it be different? Is there evidence for believing it's a different kind of drain? Remember, he's not using the drain in the ritual, he's using the drain for the ritual. Well we have Nihilus' Gigadrain that kills life and he feeds off them. There's Palpatine's Drain which siphons of their life energy to maintain his own. There's that other one that Drains your... Force powers (?). And there's Kun's that fuels his ritual.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No. He is very specific that he needs to drain the Massassi in order to have the strength to sunder his flesh from his spirit. The draining is the draining - for the power. The ritual is the ritual - to separate his body from his soul with that stolen power. Again, he's been in battle before. Where was his instantaneous and singular use of it then? He could have drained Vodo. Or the Senate. Or any enemy he ever encountered.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Why is this a question? More beings = more Force being drained = more power being consumed...unless you're a Force prodigy like Galen, then maybe those thousands of Massassi being drained add up to one Galen Marek. But I doubt it. Well hopefully Galen figures out a clever escape plan while Exar gradually drains him of his life.

Originally posted by Enyalus
How does Galen defend against it? This would be a foreign technique to him. He's never met the Emperor, and Vader doesn't know it. See above above.

Originally posted by Derelite
uhhh galen is superior because he defeated him...

I meant how is Krayt superior to Galen? Based on my knowledge he isn't.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Well, Galen wasn't a Sith Lord, which is why I didn't put him in the list. But yeah, Galen > suited Vader, too.

I don't have anything specifically pointing to Krayt being more powerful than suited Vader. I feel due to his lightsaber resistant armor, his two sabers instead of Vader's one, and his ability to use Force Lightning, that he'd beat Vader solidly in a straight fight. I'm not read-enough on Legacy in order to debate that, though, so feel free to disagree.

I don't have anything to add to the Exar and rituals thing. I've said what I will on it. Suffice to say, he does not need a ritual in order to Drain someone of the Force or their life or tear their soul out. And Galen has no defense against it, because he's completely unfamiliar with it.

I don't think that Krayt has displayed anything putting him on par with Vader or Galen.

Didn't Exar need to possess Kyp and utilize his Force potential in order to perform that move that put Luke (who wasn't at his best yet) in a coma?

I'd like to point out, technically the Death Star was fired more than once, just not at full power, but it still pretty much destroyed another planet.

Enyalus
The TOTJ Companion states, "Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith Force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocron and tomes."

"Has knowledge of" = "the ability to use"? Since when?

Originally posted by Enyalus

What do you have in mind, regarding Force feats aside from Force Choking a non-Force-sensitive from a possible few lightyears away?

Blocking force attacks that killed his storm troopers instantly, ragdolled a Jedi powerful enough to rip a space station apart(he did so casually to), rag dolling kento marek, sent a force wave that destroyed a massive barrier, seizing a telekinetic storm of giant pillars which nearly killed galen marek in their final duel, force gripped an entire hut that was stated to be "as strong as steel" and casually crushes it. Lets not forget how Vader was able to tank lightning that was powerful enough to collapse and destroy an entire ATAT as well as moving fast enough to dodge blaster bolts in the empire comic.
Also powerful enough to kill a Jedi that can phase through walls.

While his formerself(Anakin) was far more agile and a much better dueler, his current self eclipses his former self in force mastery and sheer brute force.


Remember in the TFU game, how vader got wtf pwned at the very last minute by having his helmet torn off, face smashed into a heat shield, has a shield generator thrown at him, gets smashed through a thick wall and then smashed through another pillar due to the incredible force thrown at him? Well he gets back ion his feet in mere minutes and takes absolutely no damage from mareks suicide attack which destroyed the tower and killed every storm trooper...

Revan got completely knocked out when a mere turbo lazer hit his ship, showing far less endurance, this guy took a massive beating to a whole new level that would have killed 95% of the force users in the mythos.
Conclusion: Vader isn't as pathetic as you put him out to be, and many of these feats demonstrated were combat feats.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And I'll ask again, can he? He's never shown to do it before this. Unless you have evidence to believe otherwise...
Okay. Then my answer is yes, he can. Because it's a Force Drain, and that's what a Force Drain was intended to do. When the Sith invented it, I doubt they had in mind all of their victims being willing accomplices in their own oblivion.

Also, I just checked and the KOTOR Campaign Guide, under Exar Kun's entry lists Drain Force among his powers.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
How much time passed within those panels? Would you say, 2 seconds?
I'm not going to speculate. I will say that there is no delay shown in the comic between gathering them and draining them, so there is no evidence for suggesting that there was actually a delay unless you're being difficult. And then you're being difficult without having evidence to support it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Well we have Nihilus' Gigadrain that kills life and he feeds off them. There's Palpatine's Drain which siphons of their life energy to maintain his own. There's that other one that Drains your... Force powers (?). And there's Kun's that fuels his ritual.
Aside from Nihilus' drain, the other three are the same technique. Palpatine drained the life of the people on Byss slowly, because it suited his needs. He could have simply drained them all much more rapidly and killed them. That would have made his 'resort world' pretty depressing though, wouldn't it? The Drain technique that drains your Force Powers you mention...Darth Traya uses it. Again, same technique as Palpatine's, just used with the intent to kill. Ditto for Kun's ritual.

The Dark Side Sourcebook says that the device he was strapped to during the ritual was the same alchemical apparatus he used to mutate the Massassi and it was that which he used to separate his spirit from his body. Meaning, what he was strapped to has no bearing at all on the Drain that he used. The only semi-valid question is whether Kun could use it on someone who was not willing...and since it's a Force Drain, the answer to that is 'yes' unless the person can defend against it.

Also, Nihilus' drain is an exception to the Force Drain listed because he is a Wound in the Force, and thus, his ability works differently than other Force-users.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Again, he's been in battle before. Where was his instantaneous and singular use of it then? He could have drained Vodo. Or the Senate. Or any enemy he ever encountered.
He didn't need it to kill Vodo. He dominated their third fight. And the senate he could have killed at any time - he put the entire chamber into a Force Stasis and made them watch while he executed their chancellor. He kills Odan-Urr with an effortless wave of his hand. And against Ulic was a special scenario - both were 'master swordsmen' and they were 'battling for supremacy' for the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith.



Raw strength in the Force, I agree - Krayt is behind.

Exar needed to possess Kyp because he didn't have a freaking body and was a 4,000 year old spirit. Give the guy a break, will you?



While normally I'd agree with the distinction, the quote is listed under 'Special Abilities' where what Force techniques the being can use are listed. That leads me to believe that he's able to utilize every Force power mentioned in the Companion. Do you disagree, or were you seeking clarification?



I was trying to block out the ridiculousness that was The Force Unleashed...damnit.

Enyalus
While normally I'd agree with the distinction, the quote is listed under 'Special Abilities' where what Force techniques the being can use are listed. That leads me to believe that he's able to utilize every Force power mentioned in the Companion. Do you disagree, or were you seeking clarification?

I disagree, because it is not stated that he can use any of them.

Originally posted by Gideon
I disagree, because it is not stated that he can use any of them.
Maybe he can't use them because he doesn't have a body, but he has knowledge of them because he could use them when he was alive.

mebbe dunno

did u c eclipse gideon omg it wuz so kewl!

Ashley will probably want to go see it with me this weekend. I'm not looking forward to it, but whatevz.

Jesus, the whole concept of twilight symbolizes this new generation born in the 90s and beyond. I'd like to call it the "pussy/emo" generation because that's what they are. Seriously, emo homosexual vampires? I'm so glad the worst thing on tv in my youth was 90210 and Melrose Place, and even THOSE shows are considered better than the drama crap they have today.

You guys also had Labyrinth, so stfu.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Jesus, the whole concept of twilight symbolizes this new generation born in the 90s and beyond. I'd like to call it the "pussy/emo" generation because that's what they are. Seriously, emo homosexual vampires? I'm so glad the worst thing on tv in my youth was 90210 and Melrose Place, and even THOSE shows are considered better than the drama crap they have today. Agreed. Music these days are crap as well with all that lady gaga bs.

Galen would pwn because of his mastery in defense against the double-bladed lightsaber and his tremendous power in the Force.

Can you refresh my memory on the former claim, Son? Kota didn't use a double-bladed saber. Shaak Ti didn't. Maris Brood didn't. Vader didn't. Who did he beat who used a double-bladed lightsaber which would lead you to conclude he had mastery against it?

I apologize if the answer is obvious. It's late and I've had like 4 hours of sleep in the past 30 hours...

proxy.

Okay. Even I thought of that one before typing the question up.

Originally posted by Alistair
Agreed. Music these days are crap as well with all that lady gaga bs.

Yeah. That was certainly better in the 90s...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. That was certainly better in the 90s...

90s alternative was very good and there were some legendary groups of the time. I think music went to shit officially towards the late 90s. Now we have almost no musicians and too many entertainers.

With that said, and I can't believe I'm saying this but, Lady Gaga IS talented. She has one hell of a voice and she's extremely talented on the piano. Anyone that gets to do a duet with Elton John has clearly done something in their lives. She's also a moron.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Jesus, the whole concept of twilight symbolizes this new generation born in the 90s and beyond. I'd like to call it the "pussy/emo" generation because that's what they are. Seriously, emo homosexual vampires?

I don't know about the "emo vampires" bit, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with being homosexual and anything that encourages open-mindedness and acceptance is a good thing.

Homosexuals will burn in Hell. The Bible says so. The end.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Homosexuals will burn in Hell. The Bible says so. The end.

The Bible contains 32 admonishments of homosexuals.

It also contains over 300 admonishments of heterosexuals.

It's not that God doesn't love heterosexuals. He just knows they need more supervision.

Compelling response, sir.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. That was certainly better in the 90s... Alot better than the crap you masturbate too... aka justin bieber.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Compelling response, sir.

Thank you.

For the record it's stated in the graphic novel that Exar Kun used the power he obtained from draining the Massassi race to power the sith power tools, rather than using the sith power tools to enable him to drain the Massassi. Draining the Massassi was done entirely under his own unaided level of ability.

Regarding Nadd's ability to use Force Storms:

killermovies.kom/forums/showthread.php?threadid=522676&

Kun mindrapes or just blows off Starfailure's head.

How?

galen wins.

I'd go with Exar. Galen is both overrated and underrated at the same time.

Originally posted by The Contact
I'd go with Exar. Galen is both overrated and underrated at the same time.

By that, do you mean overated in the force yet underated in sabers?

More that in one thread you'll have him taking on the likes of Exar Kun, and in another thread getting beaten by the likes of Anakin Skywalker. But that as well.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
How?

Starkiller has shown no mental defense that make him capable of defending against a guy who can do this.
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9995/kunsenatefreeze.th.jpg

As for blowing his head off, Amulet Blast.

Exar Kun has shown no defense against Starkiller's force power.

Regardless that was a Sith spell it may have required prep also it has never been used against a force user. Nothing indicates it would work on Marek.