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All out battle between two elite swordsmen, taking place inside the old Massassi temple on Yavin 4.






(I couldn't find this in the Search. Weird.)

Kas'im.

...I don't think it'd be overly difficult for him, either.

it wouldnt

Originally posted by Galan007
Kas'im.

...I don't think it'd be overly difficult for him, either.
I'll disagree with you there. Maul nearly killed Sidious during his final test when he thought Sidious was going to choose another apprentice and get rid of him.

He's got the touch. He's got the powwwah!

TPM obi-wan nearly killed maul after qui-gon got stabbed

TPM Obi-Wan did kill Maul. lol

haha true that!

was referring to the scene obi-wan got knocked into the pit > >

Indeed you were. I was just being an ass.

But eh, the TPM novelization doesn't make much fuss over it. It said Maul actually was gaining strength from Obi-Wan's anger IIRC. And then considering he actually does knock him into the pit, well...

i always thought it was so funny how the author of TPM novel kneejerk defends maul in that book. his portrayal of how that fight went looks totally different from how the movie showed the fight. "gains strength from obi-wan's anger" right... which is why maul was literally put on his ass in ten seconds and nearly chopped in half!

*sniffs* What do you know about fighting? You're a woman.

damn you and your penis!

You aren't nearly the first female to utter that curse.

Don't underestimate Maul. He was injured in TPM. Maul was really awesome in Shadowhunter. That said, Kas'im is gonna win, but it'll be a tough fight.

injured. lol. more BS from terry brooks. as for shadow hunter. the majority of his really impressive stuff in that book have already been broken down to the point whre at its core most of it is unsubstantiated anyway.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'll disagree with you there. Maul nearly killed Sidious during his final test when he thought Sidious was going to choose another apprentice and get rid of him.

He's got the touch. He's got the powwwah! I have always viewed that showing as little more then Maul's final Sith 'exam' per se -- a chance for Palpatine to push the ever-obedient Maul to his emotional breaking point -- a chance to see if the apprentice could be angered to such a degree that he would actually try to kill his master (the Sith way fulfilled)... Long story short, that showing has never made me believe that Maul was anywhere near Palpatine's level (in any category.)

I mean, do I think Qui-Gon could have given Sidious any sort of prolonged fight (as he did with Maul)? Hell no. Do I think Obi-Wan as a Padawan could get in any good shots on Sidious (as he did with Maul)? Hell no -- especially when RotS-Obi-Wan outright stated that even he and Yoda combined would be no match for him. Do I think Maul could have slew 3 of "the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced" with a ridiculous degree of ease, AND matched a Vaapad-empowered Mace blow for blow (as Sidious did)? Hell no.

(Btw, I know you never claimed Maul = Sidious, but I figured it was only a matter of time until someone tried lol.)

---

Kas'im, on the other hand, was not only a confirmed master of every form of lightsaber combat, but he also tooled Bane as though he were a talentless feeb... Now that's sumthin rite thuur.

Maul was pathetic in Shadow Hunter. He spent the entire book chasing a non-force sensitive and DROID and couldn't catch them.

Sidious finally had to hand him to Maul on a platter. Interesting how they tied the droid into Jedi Twilight though.

I believe that Lord Kas'im would win.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I believe that Lord Kas'im would win. Of course by Kas'im, you mean Revan. And I agree.

Wasn't a source that stated Maul wasn't at full power/stamina during the TPM duel? I can't seem to verify that...

I recall reading somewhere that he had a sprainged ankle... Can't rember where though. Regardless Kas'im wins. Although I would not be easy for him.

Originally posted by Galan007
I mean, do I think Qui-Gon could have given Sidious any sort of prolonged fight (as he did with Maul)? Hell no. Do I think Obi-Wan as a Padawan could get in any good shots on Sidious (as he did with Maul)? Hell no -- especially when RotS-Obi-Wan outright stated that even he and Yoda combined would be no match for him. Do I think Maul could have slew 3 of "the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced" with a ridiculous degree of ease, AND matched a Vaapad-empowered Mace blow for blow (as Sidious did)? Hell no.

(Btw, I know you never claimed Maul = Sidious, but I figured it was only a matter of time until someone tried lol.)

Prolonged fight or not, Maul dominated the fight with Qui-Gon, directing the action and determining the course of the fight actively (as elaborated on in the novel.) And all I can say is that the movie showing of Obi-Wan's brief spat with him was an aberration. I mean, Qui-Gon is a master swordsman in his own right and presumably better than a padawan who copied his style, right? I don't understand the choreography behind that, especially when Maul did better 2 against 1 than 1 on 1, but whatever.

He still tooled Darth Vader canonically. awesome

Originally posted by Galan007
Kas'im, on the other hand, was not only a confirmed master of every form of lightsaber combat, but he also tooled Bane as though he were a talentless feeb... Now that's sumthin rite thuur.

If Kas'im opts for using Jar'Kai immediately, the fight might end pretty quick. But otherwise, I don't see it being easy for him to win - although I do agree that, in the end, Kas'im takes it.

Maul never fought Vader. If you try to claim Maul clone==maul, I will punch you in the nose. The only person to ever try to claim that was HWKA. You don't want to be in that company do you?

Kas'im pretty much annihilates him. He'll either finish the fight in an absurdly short time or he'll dominate for the entire duration of a prolonged engagement. He's everything that Maul is but vastly, vastly superior.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Prolonged fight or not, Maul dominated the fight with Qui-Gon, directing the action and determining the course of the fight actively (as elaborated on in the novel.) And all I can say is that the movie showing of Obi-Wan's brief spat with him was an aberration. I mean, Qui-Gon is a master swordsman in his own right and presumably better than a padawan who copied his style, right? I don't understand the choreography behind that, especially when Maul did better 2 against 1 than 1 on 1, but whatever. Not that any of this pertains to the match at hand, but Maul didn't dominate the whole battle with Qui-Gon...

" had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty." - TPM


As for Obi-Wan, he also did quite well against Maul initially...

"The Sith Lord was borne backward by initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit. There he struggled to keep the young Jedi at bay, trying to open enough space between them to defend himself. Lightsabers scraped and grated against each other, and the chamber echoed with their fury. Lunging and twisting, Darth Maul regained the offensive and counterattacked, using both ends of his lightsaber in an effort to cut Obi-Wan's legs out from under him. But Obi-Wan, while not so experienced as Qui-Gon, was quicker. Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down." - TPM


Anyhow, my only point is that Qui-Gon and Padawan Obi-Wan were able to (at least for a while) hold their own against Maul one on one. That said, Maul certainly wouldn't be able to compete with Sidious in an actual battle, on any level. Imo.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He still tooled Darth Vader canonically. awesomeThat was Darth Mauul.

Originally posted by Enyalus
If Kas'im opts for using Jar'Kai immediately, the fight might end pretty quick. But otherwise, I don't see it being easy for him to win - although I do agree that, in the end, Kas'im takes it. The only thing I disagree with here is your opinion that it wouldn't be easy for Kas'im to win -- I personally think it would.

Originally posted by truejedi
Maul never fought Vader. If you try to claim Maul clone==maul, I will punch you in the nose. The only person to ever try to claim that was HWKA. You don't want to be in that company do you?
Unless something else has recently come out elaborating on it, I'm not aware of anyone saying explicitly that it was a clone. It could have been a clone. Or the Dark Siders could have resurrected Maul. Whichever. Even if I allow for it being a clone with no evidence to support that, that clone would have had nowhere near the training that the real Maul did and per DE would have been an inferior body when compared to the real thing.

shrug

^ You're right, Eny. It was never outright stated that Maul was cloned -- in fact, no real specifics pertaining to his resurrection were given... These few vague statements are all we have to go by:
http://img180.imageshack.us/f/maul1.jpg/
http://img717.imageshack.us/f/maul2.jpg/

Originally posted by Galan007
I have always viewed that showing as little more then Maul's final Sith 'exam' per se -- a chance for Palpatine to push the ever-obedient Maul to his emotional breaking point -- a chance to see if the apprentice could be angered to such a degree that he would actually try to kill his master (the Sith way fulfilled)... Long story short, that showing has never made me believe that Maul was anywhere near Palpatine's level (in any category.)

I mean, do I think Qui-Gon could have given Sidious any sort of prolonged fight (as he did with Maul)? Hell no. Do I think Obi-Wan as a Padawan could get in any good shots on Sidious (as he did with Maul)? Hell no -- especially when RotS-Obi-Wan outright stated that even he and Yoda combined would be no match for him. Do I think Maul could have slew 3 of "the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced" with a ridiculous degree of ease, AND matched a Vaapad-empowered Mace blow for blow (as Sidious did)? Hell no.

(Btw, I know you never claimed Maul = Sidious, but I figured it was only a matter of time until someone tried lol.)

---

Kas'im, on the other hand, was not only a confirmed master of every form of lightsaber combat, but he also tooled Bane as though he were a talentless feeb... Now that's sumthin rite thuur.

Ya know.... I just don't see the quote of Obi saying we can't take Sid together as all together as a totally factual statement. He has no clue what they could and couldn't do, and latter evidence proved he was wrong. That quote seemed to me, that he was more scared of the proposition of confronting a sith lord, with his track record against lesser sith's had been great. That was just his opinion not a fact. Yoda later proved this to not be true, but taking on, and getting the better of the sith lord. He made sid...flee time and after time to try and get away from Yoda. If he could've killed yoda he would've or stuck around. Yet we saw him do the opposite. I really don't see that statement from Obi as anything more than him being scared and for dramatical purposes.

Didn't Maul get tooled TWICE by some dude with a wooden stick????? Serious question here.

Siolo Ur Manka I believe was his name. This happened around the same time (circa 32 BBY) he confronted and killed Qui-Gon Jinn. Not sure as to the level of canon though. However, it still gives us a glimpse of what might happen if Maul were to face a warrior on the level of Kas'im.

Actually, upon further thought, I'm not sure if Kas'im "stomps" this like some people have said. Bane with just 1 year of training was able to drive Kas'im back, and Kas'im only got an advantage due to using a form unfamiliar to Bane. However, in this case Maul is familiar with all forms that Kas'im is known to have used.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Actually, upon further thought, I'm not sure if Kas'im "stomps" this like some people have said. Bane with just 1 year of training was able to drive Kas'im back, and Kas'im only got an advantage due to using a form unfamiliar to Bane. However, in this case Maul is familiar with all forms that Kas'im is known to have used.

Read my comment and give me your interpretation.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Read my comment and give me your interpretation.
On the inside of Tales #10, where it lists the stories located within, it's got an "Infinities" stamp. And Infinities is non-canon. Tales 1-20 is non-canon.

Additionally though, Maul only had his single-bladed lightsaber when Siolo looked better than him, and it only happened once. Second time, with his saberstaff, he killed the Jedi Master.

Originally posted by Enyalus
On the inside of Tales #10, where it lists the stories located within, it's got an "Infinities" stamp. And Infinities is non-canon. Tales 1-20 is non-canon.

Additionally though, Maul only had his single-bladed lightsaber when Siolo looked better than him, and it only happened once. Second time, with his saberstaff, he killed the Jedi Master.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Enyalus
If Kas'im opts for using Jar'Kai immediately, the fight might end pretty quick.

Beg your pardon, but I doubt that. The only reason Kas'im's Jar'Kai was so devastating against Bane was because Bane had ZERO familiarity with it. Heck, that was why Kas'im didn't teach it to anyone; to make sure he'd always have an ace up his sleeve.

Maul is familiar with Jar'Kai and is in fact an expert at it himself. Even if Kas'im uses it right off the bat it won't help much.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Didn't Maul get tooled TWICE by some dude with a wooden stick????? Serious question here.

Serious answer, no. He got tooled ONCE and won the re-match.

Plus that 'dude' (Siolo'urmanka) was described as one of the greatest living Jedi warriors.

Kas'im stomps. And because I agree with popular and obvious opinion, I win.whistling

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon, but I doubt that. The only reason Kas'im's Jar'Kai was so devastating against Bane was because Bane had ZERO familiarity with it. Heck, that was why Kas'im didn't teach it to anyone; to make sure he'd always have an ace up his sleeve.

Maul is familiar with Jar'Kai and is in fact an expert at it himself. Even if Kas'im uses it right off the bat it won't help much.



Serious answer, no. He got tooled ONCE and won the re-match.

Plus that 'dude' (Siolo'urmanka) was described as one of the greatest living Jedi warriors.

He got tooled the first time and was in the process of getting tooled the second time before he ignited the second blade of his newly built dual-bladed lightsaber. Either way, he was getting his ass handed to him. And I brought this up because it might help to illuminate what might happen if Maul were to face another combatant of kas'im's caliber.

And yes Letum Lettow, you win. We all win. Except for those who don't win.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
He got tooled the first time and was in the process of getting tooled the second time before he ignited the second blade of his newly built dual-bladed lightsaber. Either way, he was getting his ass handed to him. And I brought this up because it might help to illuminate what might happen if Maul were to face another combatant of kas'im's caliber.
For all we know that Jedi could simply be very good. Better than Kas'im even. And if we go with the Kun fanboy logic he is uber since he fights with a wooden staff.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And yes Letum Lettow, you win. We all win. Except for those who don't win. Why bother seducing a woman who will **** whenever she's in tears?

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Why bother seducing a woman who will **** whenever she's in tears?

confused

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
confused
I don't get it, either.

Personally, I prefer my women in tears while I **** them.

Where have you been all my life.

I don't do child support. My bad.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't get it, either.

Personally, I prefer my women in tears while I **** them. It's free lube after all.

Exactly, why bother being nice when you can make them sad and cry instead?

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Exactly, why bother being nice when you can make them sad and cry instead?

nono

Hey, you there for her and comforting her and getting laid at the same time, what's wrong with that?

Sold!!! Where do I sign up?

Just don't be a huge jackass and brag about taking advantage of her. Instead, admit you were there for her.

Does anybody else think that line from Obi about how him and yoda have no chance against Sids.. as kinda him just being scared of facing a sith lord given his track record against Dooku?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Does anybody else think that line from Obi about how him and yoda have no chance against Sids.. as kinda him just being scared of facing a sith lord given his track record against Dooku?
According to the Episode III Visual Dictionary, Sidious "wasn't concerned" about Obi-Wan and Yoda teaming up on him...that could be because of his arrogance, but...

hmmm, why was he concerned about facing Yoda one on one then?

Enyalus
According to the Episode III Visual Dictionary, Sidious "wasn't concerned" about Obi-Wan and Yoda teaming up on him...that could be because of his arrogance, but...
Do you have the entire passage? I suspect it's referring to whatever threat they pose to him after the events of Episode III, in which case his confidence would be justified.

Originally posted by Eminence
Do you have the entire passage? I suspect it's referring to whatever threat they pose to him after the events of Episode III, in which case his confidence would be justified.
I do. But, I took it out of context slightly to suit my purposes. Bad me. Here you go:

"Darth Sidious isn't worried about any Jedi who managed to survive Order 66. Even united, Yoda and Obi-Wan pose no threat to the Dark Lords of the Sith."

I guess it would be because Obi wan might actually get in the way and be something Yoda would have to protect...

Sorseu would be kind of useless against Sidious. Sure, Obi-Wan might be really hard to hit, but honestly - not enough offense to bother the Emperor while he would also be fighting Yoda.

Then again, Obi-Wan was also a master of Ataru...

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sorseu would be kind of useless against Sidious. Sure, Obi-Wan might be really hard to hit, but honestly - not enough offense to bother the Emperor while he would also be fighting Yoda.

Then again, Obi-Wan was also a master of Ataru... His Ataru was likely like having a Black Belt in Karate.

Think about it, sure, Mastering a form is good and all, but it really only means you gotten all the moves right. Yoda was THE master of Ataru, Ob1 was THE master of Soresu. Having masterd a form is like finishing -college algebra. Being THE master is like re-inventing and improving it.

I'm just giving you what the sources say. Obi-Wan was a master of Ataru.

There's a whole lotta focus on Forms goin on up in hur, and not a lot of focus on the idea that thei'ren't just move sequences

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'm just giving you what the sources say. Obi-Wan was a master of Ataru. A master, not the master, or even an exceptional master.

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
A master, not the master, or even an exceptional master.
ok

EDIT

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
A master, not the master, or even an exceptional master. Obviously the master of Ataru would have been Yoda. That's not to say Obi-Wan wouldn't have been exceptionally proficient with it, though (it was Qui-Gon's form of choice, after all.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Obviously the master of Ataru would have been Yoda. That's not to say Obi-Wan wouldn't have been exceptionally proficient with it, though (it was Qui-Gon's form of choice, after all.) That's pretty much what I already said....dumbass.

^

It always amuses me when people attempt to 'bad mouth' others on an internet-based discussion forum. It's actually kind of sad.

Yeah. Dumb is definitely the word that comes to mind when I think of Galan....






















Not really.

Ad hominem much Enyalus?

Pardon? I gave up my ability of understanding Latin in order to help further my fluency in French.

Don't attack Galan, who is a rather polite person, in order to belittle his opinion. Attack his opinion.

And you should take under serious consideration not attacking sarcasm until you properly understand it.

Eminence
Do you have the entire passage? I suspect it's referring to whatever threat they pose to him after the events of Episode III, in which case his confidence would be justified.

Because he's far more powerful, intelligent, and important than both of them?

lol: Enyalus, sorry, i thought you were the one who called him a dumbass. My apologies.

Originally posted by truejedi
lol: Enyalus, sorry, i thought you were the one who called him a dumbass. My apologies. Eny would never stoop to that level. naw

Originally posted by Galan007
Eny would never stoop to that level. naw
Well, not to you, no. But I do remember saying some bad things about Gideon back in the day in like, a DE Sidious vs. Yoda, Mace and Luke thread or something.

I even drew on the pages of Dark Empire that I posted like Blair Wind does lol.

...success?

galan is a dumb backpeddling jackass and i hate him

really

I HATE HIM

Good! Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I even drew on the pages of Dark Empire that I posted like Blair Wind does lol. Classic.

Originally posted by Eminence
galan is a dumb backpeddling jackass and i hate him

really

I HATE HIM Then my task is complete. haw-som

SUCCESSFUL TROLL IS SUCCESSFUL!

Sidious goal was to survive. Not kill Yoda. But then, we have had THAT discusion long a ****ing go.

KT
If Sids truly outclassed the deadliest foe the darkside ever had, they he would've stayed to finish the job. Instead he ran away from Yoda.

This amuses me.

Because if Yoda was "more than a match for Sidious," why did he run from Sidious?

Clone Commander Thire: There is no sign of his body, sir.
Mas Amedda: Then he is not dead?
The Emperor: Double your search!
Clone Commander Thire: Yes, sir! Right away, sir!

The Emperor: Tell Captain Kagi to prepare my shuttle for immediate takeoff.
Mas Amedda: Yes, Master.
The Emperor: I sense Lord Vader is in danger.

He left for Vader.

Regardless if you think Sids ran or for what reasons.. .doesn't address my post about Obi's comment about him and yoda vs. The Emperor

^ Address my point, please.

Originally posted by Gideon
^ Address my point, please.

You're not serious, are you?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You're not serious, are you?

Yep.

Originally posted by Gideon
^ Address my point, please.

You failed to address mine and my thoughts about Obi's statement and why he made it. How about doing that first.

Yoda agreed with Obi-Wan's claim that even the both of them together would be easily killed by Sidious. So imo, Obi-Wan's comment being solidified by Yoda's approval should constitute for something.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yoda agreed with Obi-Wan's claim that even the both of them together would be easily killed by Sidious. So imo, Obi-Wan's comment being solidified by Yoda's approval should constitute for something.

What book is this in? I definitely don't see anything even remotely close in the movie or the novel.

^ The statement I'm talking about is from the RotS novelization...

"Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee--four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance." "True," Yoda said. "But both of us apart, a chance we might create . . ."

Originally posted by Galan007
^ The statement I'm talking about is from the RotS novelization...

"Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee--four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance." "True," Yoda said. "But both of us apart, a chance we might create . . ."
Oh it was Obiwan. It appears Yoda doesn't think his Ataru and Obiwan's Soresu can work together against Palpatine and I agree. Yoda needs to be facing his opponents along, as a result of his ridiculous acrobatics.

Sounds more like Yoda is completely oblivious to divide and conquer as opposed to splitting forces.

Yoda by himself was almost enough for Sidious and since Jedi always work better when they are together and get the old Force team spirit going (especially Jedi as close as Obi-Wan and Yoda), you think it would make more sense to deal with Palps and then take on Anakin.

But then, Yoda is a moron.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh it was Obiwan. It appears Yoda doesn't think his Ataru and Obiwan's Soresu can work together against Palpatine and I agree. Yoda needs to be facing his opponents along, as a result of his ridiculous acrobatics. Could be, though I think you are over-analyzing it.

...I took it as them simply not being powerful, and/or skilled enough to beat Palpatine.

KT
You failed to address mine and my thoughts about Obi's statement and why he made it. How about doing that first.

I don't have to address your point, because you weren't arguing with me. I, on the other hand, addressed one of your claims.

Get to it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yoda agreed with Obi-Wan's claim that even the both of them together would be easily killed by Sidious. So imo, Obi-Wan's comment being solidified by Yoda's approval should constitute for something.

Yes but NEITHER had all the info my friend. They assumed (wrongly) that Sids beat all 4 jedi masters by himself. When in fact, Mace beat Sids by himself. So if you believe someone beat 4 masters, including one that is your peer... sure your views would be skewed as well. Don't you think?

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't have to address your point, because you weren't arguing with me. I, on the other hand, addressed one of your claims.

Get to it.

I see, so you weren't arguing with me, but want me to argue with you... Sorry bud, doesn't work that way. If you want to argue the point I brought up, please do, and I'll address your point in return. Your stance of... well you weren't arguing with me so I don't have to answer, but answer my question... nah

KT
I see, so you weren't arguing with me, but want me to argue with you... Sorry bud, doesn't work that way. If you want to argue the point I brought up, please do, and I'll address your point in return. Your stance of... well you weren't arguing with me so I don't have to answer, but answer my question... nah

That was... pathetic.

You and I weren't in this debate, were we? No. The question was not posed to me, was it? No. Did I pose a question to you? Yes. Was it about a claim you made? Yes.

So address my point or concede it. But attempting to say "LOL NO U ANSER MY QUESTION FIRST!!1!" won't work.

Edit: And for fvck's sake, don't try to be some sort of badass by arguing this. I haven't taken a side on this issue, I wasn't in the debate, but I can ask questions with the expectation of you answering them in order to expand on your point.

This has been done since the history of time; I don't have to get involved in this entire discussion for you to answer a silly little question. Really, not answering it just makes you look terribly transparent.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Sounds more like Yoda is completely oblivious to divide and conquer as opposed to splitting forces.

Yoda by himself was almost enough for Sidious and since Jedi always work better when they are together and get the old Force team spirit going (especially Jedi as close as Obi-Wan and Yoda), you think it would make more sense to deal with Palps and then take on Anakin.

But then, Yoda is a moron.

Since when is Jedi teaming up a guaranteed victory, or even close to it? If you take their saber styles into account, Yoda wouldn't do well with anybody around him.

If the Yoda vs Sidious fight was on a flatter battleground and things otherwise went in a similar direction, Yoda would have won. After disarming Sidious (which apparently happens off screen), Yoda could just cut down Sidious, who would have no higher ground to run to and no senate pods to hurl. Sidious might have resorted to Force lightning as his trump card, but even a caught off guard (due to the different elevations) Yoda that was disarmed by the Force lightning due to being surprised was capable of reflecting it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yes but NEITHER had all the info my friend. They assumed (wrongly) that Sids beat all 4 jedi masters by himself. When in fact, Mace beat Sids by himself. So if you believe someone beat 4 masters, including one that is your peer... sure your views would be skewed as well. Don't you think? Based on the novel's description + what was shown in the film, I don't think that Yoda was close enough to Palpatine (power/skill-wise) that adding Obi-Wan into the mix would have done much good. That said, I could completely buy Obi-Wan's comment that Sidious was >> he and Yoda combined.

...In my opinion, adding Obi-Wan to the Yoda/Sidious battle wouldn't have had much more of an effect then Kit, Agen, and Saesee had on the Mace/Sidious battle. /shrug

That's odd, Galan, 'cause I saw the Yoda/Sidious fight as being in Yoda's favor.

Originally posted by Galan007
Based on the novel's description + what was shown in the film, I don't think that Yoda was close enough to Palpatine (power/skill-wise) that adding Obi-Wan into the mix would have done much good. That said, I could completely buy Obi-Wan's comment that Sidious was >> he and Yoda combined.

...In my opinion, adding Obi-Wan to the Yoda/Sidious battle wouldn't have had much more of an effect then Kit, Agen, and Saesee had on the Mace/Sidious battle. /shrug

By "not close enough" do you mean that they were equals while Palpatine had the higher ground?

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's odd, Galan, 'cause I saw the Yoda/Sidious fight as being in Yoda's favor. Hm, how so?

Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, how so?
Well first Sidious tries to run away, then Sidious gets disarmed. Plus the virtual stalemate of Lightning which blasts them both away. *shrugs* Yoda's lighter, so of course he'd fly a bit further, and end up slipping off.

On even ground, I see the fight playing out a whole lot more unfavorably for Palpatine.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Well first Sidious tries to run away, then Sidious gets disarmed. Plus the virtual stalemate of Lightning which blasts them both away. *shrugs* Yoda's lighter, so of course he'd fly a bit further, and end up slipping off.

On even ground, I see the fight playing out a whole lot more unfavorably for Palpatine. I don't see it that way. Yoda never had a chance of winning...

"Finally, saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . . Just didn't have it. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born." - RotS

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't see it that way. Yoda never had a chance of winning...

"Finally, saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . . Just didn't have it. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born." - RotS
lol...And that was due to Palpatine's superior skill? Beating Yoda before Yoda was ever born (and ergo, before Palpatine's birth?)

That passage refers to the Rule of Two being a superior Sith strategy.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't see it that way. Yoda never had a chance of winning...

"Finally, saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . . Just didn't have it. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born." - RotS

I think you're misinterpreting the symbolism because it had nothing to do with the current fight, really. Yoda and Palpatine were equals but Yoda is basically stating that the Jedi lost this fight a long time ago, when Bane created his new order.

Originally posted by Enyalus
lol...And that was due to Palpatine's superior skill? Saber-wise, Sidious and Yoda were equals.... But from a force standpoint, Sidious seemed to have the edge, imo.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I think you're misinterpreting the symbolism because it had nothing to do with the current fight, really. Yoda and Palpatine were equals but Yoda is basically stating that the Jedi lost this fight a long time ago, when Bane created his new order. Hm, yeah I guess you could be right. For some reason I always took that statement as Yoda simply never having a chance at beating Palpatine... The light overcoming the darkness just wasn't in the cards at that point in time. /shrug

Regardless, I don't see how having Obi-Wan on Yoda's side could have helped things. Mace had three of the best swordsmen the order had ever produced on his side and it didn't help him at all.... Not to mention the fact that in their battle, Mace/Sidious were moving at such speeds that Anakin (aka. teh Dooku-slayer) couldn't even perceive them. Thus Obi would get wtfspeedblitzed!!1!!1

Originally posted by Galan007
Saber-wise, Sidious and Yoda were equals.... But from a force standpoint, Sidious seemed to have the edge, imo.
Saberwise, Maul 'nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows,' Mace disarmed him, Yoda disarmed him, DE Luke disarmed him...Sidious is in the elite tier, yes, but I can't see him being equal to 'the Order's true master of lightsaber combat.'

Forcewise, I think I'm inclined to agree with you. And personally I think that's what made Sidious so dangerous with his lightsaber - his massive Force reserves with which to boost his speed and strength with.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not to mention the fact that in their battle, Mace/Sidious were moving at such speeds that Anakin (aka. teh Dooku-slayer) couldn't even perceive them. Thus Obi would get wtfspeedblitzed!!1!!1
To be fair, Anakin was in no condition to be standing, let alone observing such a duel. The novel makes it clear that not only was he in emotional turmoil, but he was sick to his stomach and sweating and had a fever (I think?) too...

Obi-Wan would've been more calm and collected and used the Force better to follow the two.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Saberwise, Maul 'nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows,' Mace disarmed him, Yoda disarmed him, DE Luke disarmed him...Sidious is in the elite tier, yes, but I can't see him being equal to 'the Order's true master of lightsaber combat.'

Forcewise, I think I'm inclined to agree with you. And personally I think that's what made Sidious so dangerous with his lightsaber - his massive Force reserves with which to boost his speed and strength with. Neither the movie nor the novel depict Yoda 'disarming' Sidious in their battle. For all we know, Sidious purposefully sheathed his weapon.

Agreed.


Originally posted by Enyalus
To be fair, Anakin was in no condition to be standing, let alone observing such a duel. The novel makes it clear that not only was he in emotional turmoil, but he was sick to his stomach and sweating and had a fever (I think?) too... Just remembered that the part of the novel where Anakin walks in on Mace/Sidious actively dueling (the part I mentioned above) is non-canon anyway.... In the film, Anakin didn't walk in on the duel until after Sdious was already on the ground, beaten.

Regardless, Sids still had some impressive speed feats throughout that duel. Aside from slaying the 3 Jedi with an insane amount of ease, there were also times when even Mace could only perceive Sidious as 'a blur of darkness' or somesuch.... So that's got to count for something.

Didn't Dooku perceive Yoda as a blur in their duels? I'm not gonna go back through the AoTC novel (which was HORRIBLE - what the hell, Mr. Salvatore?) and DR to check, though...

Lazy.

I just read through it, and the only notable points were that Dooku managed to hold off Yoda's surprise flurry, and Yoda's "Fought well you have' comment.

On topic, Kas'im becuase of his superior skill.

Originally posted by Gideon
This amuses me.

Because if Yoda was "more than a match for Sidious," why did he run from Sidious?



Hahaha.

^ Did you see KT's pathetic attempt to escape that one?

Originally posted by Gideon
^ Did you see KT's pathetic attempt to escape that one?

Attempt to escape LOL LOL. You're a funny guy Gideon, you do amuse me so. The thing is, I was asking a general question to all, and that all includes you. Reason being, you frequent the forums, and decided to read my post. Therefore, one could argue that I was talking to you and anybody who read my post. So your.. well you weren't specifically talking to me, and therefore I don't have to answer you, but you have to answer me... was all the more amusing. I'll play along... please elborate for me on what you're asking and when Yoda ran from Sid...

Why are Sidious, Yoda and Dooku even being discussed?

Imma going with Kas'im on this one, probably.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Attempt to escape LOL LOL. You're a funny guy Gideon, you do amuse me so. The thing is, I was asking a general question to all, and that all includes you. Reason being, you frequent the forums, and decided to read my post. Therefore, one could argue that I was talking to you and anybody who read my post. So your.. well you weren't specifically talking to me, and therefore I don't have to answer you, but you have to answer me... was all the more amusing. I'll play along... please elborate for me on what you're asking and when Yoda ran from Sid...

How about, we just skip forum etiquette altogether, as it's pointless semantics? Originally posted by Gideon
^ Did you see KT's pathetic attempt to escape that one?

I was laughing because it's so easy to address but no one in the thread has done so.

Polaski says that she has addressed it already in the past, though.

Yes, because that's exactly what you were doing.



You were attacking Kenobi's assessment of Palpatine's fighting skills based on the idea that Yoda was "more than a match for Sidious," hence why Sidious attempted to flee during the initial part of the duel. I responded with the fact that Yoda fled from Sidious at the end of their duel. Why would he flee if he were more than a match for Sidious?



Then do it!

Yoda fled because an army of clones were closing in on the senate chamber.

Done!

Prove it.

Yoda ran away, and moments later a bunch of clones appeared.

Done!

Because... Palpatine called them?

Prove it.

!

k

haermm

1. Prove Sidious was disarmed.

2. Where did Sidious vacate the scene? Where did he leave? He was still dangling on the pod; Yoda fled.

3. Prove that the clones were on their way prior to Palpatine summoning them and then prove that Yoda knew they were coming.

(Also, I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion, I'm just wanting you to be less sloppy about getting there.)

Originally posted by Gideon


(Also, I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion, I'm just wanting you to be less sloppy about getting there.)

Translation: He's trolling you. And you're taking it like a slave.

You'd know all about slaves, wouldn't you?

It's not trolling; no evidence has been provided to suggest that Yoda was "more than a match" for Palpatine. And neither of you have proven that a.) the clones were already coming or b.) that Yoda sensed that they were already coming.

I'm trolling you. and you're taking it like a slave now. 131



I don't need to prove it. There is more logic pointing to the clones either being summoned or someone noticing that there were two knocked out gaurds and a missing emperor in his chamber and alerting security, then there is evidence pointing to other conclusions. Only a fool would not take into consideration that the house of the most important person in the entire Galaxy would be swarming with gaurds and that any assassination attempt would have a limited time window. If you want to assume that Yoda is such a fool, purely because there is no convenient quote from some cock sucking author, be my guest. 313

Originally posted by Galan007
Neither the movie nor the novel depict Yoda 'disarming' Sidious in their battle. For all we know, Sidious purposefully sheathed his weapon.
The script says "YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts."

My view of the fight is that they were equal. Yoda having a slight advantage in sabers, Palpatine in the force. But in this case Palpatine won.

Blax
I don't need to prove it.

lolwut

Affirmative Action hasn't gotten its claws into the rules of debating, yet, Blax. Until such a time, when you make a claim, you must prove it.

How very Janus of you to assume facts not in evidence....

Originally posted by Gideon
haermm

1. Prove Sidious was disarmed.

2. Where did Sidious vacate the scene? Where did he leave? He was still dangling on the pod; Yoda fled.

3. Prove that the clones were on their way prior to Palpatine summoning them and then prove that Yoda knew they were coming.

(Also, I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion, I'm just wanting you to be less sloppy about getting there.)

The were engaged in a saber duel in one scene..and then the next he doesn't have it anymore. A duel I might add that Yoda was clearly doing just fine in. Sure you can't say one way or another but Yoda still had his saber and Sids didn't.

He obviously wasn't there because Yoda looked up and saw that he was gone and left himself. When yoda was below the emperor before, he got back up to him to engage him. Now you expect me to believe he looked up and saw him dangling there and decided to leave. Come on Gideon, you're usually more logical than that. Probability lies with my interpretation.

So Yoda somehow lost his Jedi senses now? Someone who can feel stuff thousands of miles away via the force.. couldn't sense that there are storm troopers less than a mile away in the building? Certainly you jest Gideon. The storm troopers were there and showed up, right away Yoda left.. yet to you that was a coincidence? Again we are working with something more probable and another just possible.

Fair enough, and it could've been worded better on my part.

Originally posted by Gideon
lolwut

Affirmative Action hasn't gotten its claws into the rules of debating, yet, Blax. Until such a time, when you make a claim, you must prove it.

How very Janus of you to assume facts not in evidence....



Ah, nothing to say in regards to the rest of my post, then?

Good. I accept your thinly veiled concession. super13

Joking aside, I don't need to. You made a claim; realistically, with someone of Palpatine's paranoia and galactic importance, there'd be pretty much a 'zero' window of opportunity. Certainly not a duel of the scale that occured without security interference. But it happened; now you must prove that clones were on the way and then that Yoda knew of it.

We're not assuming facts not in evidence.

I win lulz luv u

Originally posted by Gideon
Joking aside, I don't need to. You made a claim; realistically, with someone of Palpatine's paranoia and galactic importance, there'd be pretty much a 'zero' window of opportunity. Certainly not a duel of the scale that occured without security interference. But it happened; now you must prove that clones were on the way and then that Yoda knew of it.

We're not assuming facts not in evidence.

I win lulz luv u

Then obviously you don't know how "proof" works then do you? I would suggest google for all your inept needs. !!!

no

How come you didn't address my post Gideon? Certain explanations are more probable than others and fall under the terms implied proof. Not all things have to be spelled out in black and white as you know. Certain things needs to be looked at logically, to fill in the blanks.

Originally posted by Gideon
no

There's the door

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How come you didn't address my post Gideon? Certain explanations are more probable than others and fall under the terms implied proof. Not all things have to be spelled out in black and white as you know. Certain things needs to be looked at logically, to fill in the blanks.

Stop riding my coat tails dammit. This victory is mine and mine alone to savor.

KT
How come you didn't address my post Gideon? Certain explanations are more probable than others and fall under the terms implied proof. Not all things have to be spelled out in black and white as you know. Certain things needs to be looked at logically, to fill in the blanks.

k



This is not conclusive proof that Palpatine was disarmed, so I don't know what needs to be addressed here.





We watched two different movies, then, because nowhere was it shown that Palpatine departed by the time that Yoda left. In fact, as we see from the movie and novelization, Palpatine remained in the Rotunda while Yoda fled; the movie shows Palpatine still cackling and dangling from the pod as Yoda gets to his feet at the very bottom.

Sorry, but Sidious didn't leave; Yoda did.



?
The Senate Building was presumably filled with stormtroopers and security personnel; what's important here is that it has been asserted that Yoda fled because stormtroopers were on their way. There has been no evidence provided to conclude that they were.

Hahaha, that's so dumb like your face and everyone you love except for me. Your logic only makes sense in the realm of KMC debating and political discussions. Faunus was right about you!

My master is right about everything.

Enyalus
My master is right about everything.

This is true; I'm never wrong.

Originally posted by Gideon
This is true; I'm never wrong.
Holy shit, Faunus is your sock?

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6180/doitus4.jpg

With Sidious's disarming and Yoda's retreat, you want to assume facts not in evidence: we don't see Sidious disarmed and there are other plausible theories (perhaps he switched to Force-only combat?) and we do not see in the movie nor are we told in the novelization that stormtroopers are on their way. And then you contradict the movie -- which shows that Sidious was still dangling from the pod when Yoda fled -- to suit your own interpretation.

I'm personally not interested in going further, because you can't pull assumptions out of thin air or defy the G-canon movie blindly to facilitate your own theory.

Absolutely; but my methodology as a debater does not allow me to blindly assume facts not in evidence. What you have done is attempt to validate your theories as simple fact when this is not the case. It is absolutely believable that Palpatine was disarmed; Yoda had been practicing religiously for decades, whereas the Emperor is believed not to have touched a lightsaber since before his Chancellorship. It is also believable that the impending presence of stormtroopers would have encouraged Yoda to depart when he did, but we do not see in the movie (or read in the novelization) that they were about to intervene on the Emperor's behalf.