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Good vs Evil, which team will win?

hmm this is a tough one. all 4 opponents are pretty equal... for now, undecided

Kenobi vs. Vader: Kenobi.

Mace vs. Galen: Mace.

Jedi. Oh yeah.

are you sure that windu could defeat starkiller?

Yes. Mace is extremely proficient at lightsaber dueling with a butt-ton of experience over Marek. He defeated Palpatine via Vaapad and shatterpoint, and Palpatine's Dark Side signature is far more profound than Marek's. He's got a powerful command of the Force to boot, so Marek won't be TKing his ass either. And Vaapad's not exactly something Marek's used to. I'm not saying it would be easy, but Marek would have to score a KO within minutes, lest Mace submerge.

Marek disentigrates the entirity of mace's molecular structure molecule by molecule in the span of less then a second.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Marek disentigrates the entirity of mace's molecular structure molecule by molecule in the span of less then a second.

Negative, Mace, being the Bad Motha ****a Jedi Master he is, would have a Force bubble/shield up throughout the battle, so that Marek's Repulse trick would probably just fling him 20-50 meters or so rather than burning his flesh and bones to dust.

^

Yeah, there's nothing to suggest that Windu is anywhere on par with Marek in terms of Force Strength.

Mace may be the superior lightsaber duelist, but Marek has far more force power than him

Agreed, but I don't think Mace is so much weaker than him that he couldn't deflect any of the Force Repulse at all.

Originally posted by SWFan4Life
Agreed, but I don't think Mace is so much weaker than him that he couldn't deflect any of the Force Repulse at all. you're probably right, but that still makes little difference

Galen force repulses mace every time he is within striking range of him, as
mace is repelled backwards with tremendous force he is rammed against whatever wall he comes in contact with. Galen chases and repeatedly force pushes mace at point blank through what ever world they are on.

This is of course, if galen doesn't just incinerate him on first contact.

Or if mace is some how not instantly incinerated, his internal organs, and skeletal system is instantly reduced to molecular dust from the kinetic force of the repulsion wave.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Galen force repulses mace every time he is within striking range of him, as
mace is repelled backwards with tremendous force he is rammed against whatever wall he comes in contact with. Galen chases and repeatedly force pushes mace at point blank through what ever world they are on.

This is of course, if galen doesn't just incinerate him on first contact.

Or if mace is some how not instantly incinerated, his internal organs, and skeletal system is instantly reduced to molecular dust from the kinetic force of the repulsion wave. you're making it sound wayyy too easy. remember, in both the game and the novel, galen had trouble with much weaker jedi than mace. What makes you think he'll be able to beat him so easily?

Ill admit the last post was some what joking.

I don't think he would be able to do so that easily, how ever I was basing galan off of what I saw from the most trailer of the TFUII where he disintigrated like 50 cone troopers instantly in a massive aoe.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Ill admit the last post was some what joking.

I don't think he would be able to do so that easily, how ever I was basing galan off of what I saw from the most trailer of the TFUII where he disintigrated like 50 cone troopers instantly in a massive aoe. oh i see. well its not actually that powerful in the game, or in the book im not sure it doesnt say really. but its still pretty darn powerful. if mace can get close enough to galen quickly and engage in lightsaber battle before galen is able to use his force powers, im giving this to mace. otherwise, its hard to tell. but all in all i think the jedi team will win with great difficulty

Originally posted by Gideon
^

Yeah, there's nothing to suggest that Windu is anywhere on par with Marek in terms of Force Strength.

There was also nothing to suggest Mace was anywhere on par with a stronger than Marek Sid in terms of Force Strength... Yet, we saw how that went

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There was also nothing to suggest Mace was anywhere on par with a stronger than Marek Sid in terms of Force Strength... Yet, we saw how that went

Didn't siids throw the force fight? And even with sids pulling his force punches, in the book mace stated he was at his max and couldn't go any furhter? Yet the moment anakin turns, sidious gets a second wind and then bbqs and then propels mace 100 meters out the window while shouting "UNLIMITED POWAAAAAHHH"

Originally posted by Board Walker
Didn't siids throw the force fight? And even with sids pulling his force punches, in the book mace stated he was at his max and couldn't go any furhter? Yet the moment anakin turns, sidious gets a second wind and then bbqs and then propels mace 100 meters out the window while shouting "UNLIMITED POWAAAAAHHH"


Oooooo were back to this... Sids threw the fight....

did he? ive never heard that before

KT
There was also nothing to suggest Mace was anywhere on par with a stronger than Marek Sid in terms of Force Strength... Yet, we saw how that went







...We're not talking about the outcome of a duel, but a comparison in Force strength. So... I appreciate your input, but it's irrelevant.

who are you even talking to?

kodiak430
who are you even talking to?

KT; I was originally talking to SWFan4Life, but KT decided to step in.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Oooooo were back to this... Sids threw the fight....

I always thought sidious lost the saber fight, but was feigning weakness during the force fight?

The whole "help me I'm a weak old man, can't hold out!"

With the book saying mace was at his limit and could go no more, then sids just gives out.

Then once anakin turns, he shoots out more force lightening then ever prior, electrocutes mace so much you can see his skeletonand then proceeds to force throw mace a hundred meters out the window. Followed by a backflip onto his feet and revived vigor.

Originally posted by Gideon
KT; I was originally talking to SWFan4Life, but KT decided to step in. ok haha i was confused

BW
I always thought sidious lost the saber fight, but was feigning weakness during the force fight?

The whole "help me I'm a weak old man, can't hold out!"

With the book saying mace was at his limit and could go no more, then sids just gives out.

Then once anakin turns, he shoots out more force lightening then ever prior, electrocutes mace so much you can see his skeletonand then proceeds to force throw mace a hundred meters out the window. Followed by a backflip onto his feet and revived vigor.

He was exaggerating that part.

so are you saying that galen would beat windu, or what?

kodiak430
so are you saying that galen would beat windu, or what?

If it was a strict battle of Force powers, absolutely.

so that brings us back to the topic of this thread, which is not just a force battle, but an all out. and who would win in the battle between obi-wan and vader?

It depends on Vaders mindset.

As long as vader uses force illusion on himself and sees obiwan as dooku he wins.

Originally posted by Board Walker
As long as vader uses force illusion on himself and sees obiwan as dooku he wins.

So he can be in the zone....and not have any emotional hang ups with obiwan...?

wtf is force illusion? ive never even heard of that and im pretty sure vader doesnt know that

.........

you gna tell me or just make me feel stupid?

Force illusion is very powerful......very mystic.....remember in episode of cloud city where luke and rebels thought lando cal rizzo was there...but itwas actually vader?

Originally posted by Gideon
KT; I was originally talking to SWFan4Life, but KT decided to step in.

Yea I don't see how Windu could have greater Force strength than Marek either, but I still suspect that Windu wouldn't be killed outright from the Force Repulse if he was defending against it. He would likely be pushed several dozen meters or burned. If he had his guard down, that's a different story.

I am talking to Gideon for this post, but kodiak feel free to listen in (or "read" in)!

But what happens if marek repulses mace, quicky follows up mace while he is still being pushed, and then repeatedly force repulses mace in quick succession. I don't think mace would survive...

Originally posted by Board Walker
But what happens if marek repulses mace, quicky follows up mace while he is still being pushed, and then repeatedly force repulses mace in quick succession. I don't think mace would survive...

That assumes Marek could do his maximum Force Repulse technique repeatedly within a number of seconds, and that he actually has the reserves available to perform this feat multiple times so quickly.

If I were George Lucas, I would probably say yes, because I completely disregard the PT and OT movies.

But I'm not, so I'll defer to higher judgment from this forum.

this is how i see it happening:
marek beats windu
kenobi beats anakin
then it comes down to obi and galen

How does Marek beat Windu again? I keep hearing force powers.. force powers.. he's better than mace in force strength thus he will win... How on God's Green Earth does that mean a victory for Marek? Mace already beat a superior force power user in Sids. His massive force powers didn't get Sids the victory.. yet it will a inferior user in Marek? Where is the logic in that..

Originally posted by kodiak430
this is how i see it happening:
marek beats windu
kenobi beats anakin
then it comes down to obi and galen

If Obi-wan can't beat Dooku even with Anakin at his side, as the movies demonstrate, Obi would fall (wouldn't be an easy fight by any means).

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How does Marek beat Windu again? I keep hearing force powers.. force powers.. he's better than mace in force strength thus he will win... How on God's Green Earth does that mean a victory for Marek? Mace already beat a superior force power user in Sids. His massive force powers didn't get Sids the victory.. yet it will a inferior user in Marek? Where is the logic in that..

It's not logic, it's GL that allows people to make cinematics that show a 19-year old kid incinerating stormtroopers with a Force bubble.

Obi Wan defeated vader in the movie, therefore he will do it again.
Mareks superior force abilities will allow him to destroy windu.
So it comes down to Obi Wan and Marek... not that complicated

Originally posted by kodiak430
Obi Wan defeated vader in the movie, therefore he will do it again.
Mareks superior force abilities will allow him to destroy windu.
So it comes down to Obi Wan and Marek... not that complicated

So you feel Marek Force abilities are > than the emperor?

Considering sidious threw the force aspect of the fight, and then proceeded to anihilate mace with lightening and force throw him out a window, I don't think marek's need to be.

I agree that Marek would defeat Windu through the Force. The only reason Mace beat Palps was because Palps felt Anakin through the Force, and wanted to make him Vader.

As for Obi, and Vader it depends on where they are fighting. In ROTS Vader had Obi beat, and Obi jumped up on the hill. Vader became overconfident and that led to him getting dismembered. If it was in Geonosis Arena, or someplace like that, then Obi would die.

Haatyc or'arue jate'shya ori'sol aru'ike nuhaatyc - "Better one big enemy that you can see than many small ones you can't."

Originally posted by Board Walker
Considering sidious threw the force aspect of the fight, and then proceeded to anihilate mace with lightening and force throw him out a window, I don't think marek's need to be.

How many times are you going to spout this theory that has no proof to back it up. Neither the Movie or Novel ever hint that this was the case. So please post the quotes from either that make this a fact. You continue to keep saying this little theory of yours that has no evidence to back it up.

KT
he's better than mace in force strength thus he will win...

Who said this?

I'm going by the movie, what you interpret of the movie is your own opinion.

Sidious loses his saber, likely not part of his plan, he then uses the force on windu, as anakin comes in. While anakin is conflicted of who to help, sidious begins to say"help me anakin I'm too weak, a feeble frail old man ahhhh" and gives out. Then the moment anakin turns to the darkside the prior stated completely drained and fatigued sidious, springs to life shouting "ULTIMATE POWAAAAHHHH" and proceeds to produce more lightening then he everdid prior that fight in a matter of seconds, on top of this he then casually force flicks windu hundreds of meters out the window to his death.

Sidious then backflips to his feet, joyous and energetic, showing not a sign of fatigue or injury.

Yeah I call that feigning defeat, throwing the fight.

I know people are uber-excited about Galen right now, but the notion that he would beat Mace just because he has superior prowess with the force, honestly made me chuckle. Maybe y'all forgot, but Mace already beat a guy who was not only superior to himself with the force, but was also far superior to (dark Jedi) Galen. It's called Vaapad. Look it up.


Anywho, Team 1 wins. RotS Obi-Wan =/> RotS Vader, and Mace > Galen *thanks Vaapad*.

Galan007
but Mace already beat a guy who was not only superior to himself with the force, but was also far superior to (dark Jedi) Galen. It's called Vaapad. Look it up.

First, if Sidious is far superior to Marek in the Force, then he's also lightyears beyond Mace as well.

Second, the Sidious that Marek took on also had two decades' worth of time to enhance his studies of the Force and thus his strength in it.

Third, Windu had a lightsaber. If it was just bare-knuckle Force brawling, there's no indication that he would have lasted long enough to blink against someone like Sidious. It wasn't a strict Force match.

Originally posted by Gideon
First, if Sidious is far superior to Marek in the Force, then he's also lightyears beyond Mace as well.

Second, the Sidious that Marek took on also had two decades' worth of time to enhance his studies of the Force and thus his strength in it.

Third, Windu had a lightsaber. If it was just bare-knuckle Force brawling, there's no indication that he would have lasted long enough to blink against someone like Sidious. It wasn't a strict Force match. I know you like defending Sidious, but none of what you said pertains to my comment.

Let me try this again (in a more 'Gideon-friendly' way )... If being more powerful with the force is all it took to defeat Mace, then Sidious would have been able to easily do so... But, due to Mace's Vaapad, Sids didn't have the opportunity to use his superior offensive force powers, because he had to use said powers in other, more defensive ways, just to keep up with Mace.

See what I'm saying now?

Originally posted by Gideon
Third, Windu had a lightsaber. If it was just bare-knuckle Force brawling, there's no indication that he would have lasted long enough to blink against someone like Sidious. It wasn't a strict Force match.
I was under the impression that Windu needs no weapons in order to fully submerse himself in Vaapad. Do I have that wrong?

i believe the rots book says that sidious was holding back in the fight against windu. Even in the movie, hes acting all weak and everything, and as soon as anakin cuts windus hand off, he gets a smirk on his face and blasts him with force lightning

Originally posted by kodiak430
i believe the rots book says that sidious was holding back in the fight against windu.
Your beliefs are incorrect, my young Sith acolyte.

Vaapad's not the end all be all, otherwise Windu would triumph over every dark sider (which he hasn't): he was unable to slaughter Dooku on Boz Pity and he lost to Vastor and admitted inferiority to him in Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I was under the impression that Windu needs no weapons in order to fully submerse himself in Vaapad. Do I have that wrong? Mace can still enter 'Vaapad-mode' without a saber (Vaapad is a state of mind, after all.) But without a saber, he would obviously become much less effective in battle.

Originally posted by kodiak430
i believe the rots book says that sidious was holding back in the fight against windu. Nah.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Your beliefs are incorrect, my young Sith acolyte. oh my bad, havent read the book for a while

The Revenge of the Sith script depicts Palpatine hurling Windu across his office with a Force push; the novelization depicts Palpatine nearly hurling Windu out the window with one as well.

Vaapad is not some sort of catch-all effect that makes Windu superior to every dark side Force user, otherwise those incidents would never have happened.

Originally posted by Gideon
Vaapad's not the end all be all, otherwise Windu would triumph over every dark sider (which he hasn't): he was unable to slaughter Dooku on Boz Pity and he lost to Vastor and admitted inferiority to him in Shatterpoint.
Very clever. Not quoting my question so that I can't call you on dodging it, while still giving a response.

i c wat u did thur

What does Mace having or not having a lightsaber have to do with anything in this thread? He has one so I'm not understanding things being preferenced with him needing one against Sids

Originally posted by Gideon
Vaapad's not the end all be all, otherwise Windu would triumph over every dark sider (which he hasn't): he was unable to slaughter Dooku on Boz Pity and he lost to Vastor and admitted inferiority to him in Shatterpoint. True. However, Mace even stated that before RotS he had never fully embraced the darkness (due to a self-imposed fear of it), thus he'd never fully been able to immerse himself in Vaapad.

ie. his battle with Sidious was the only time Vaapad had ever been used to it's best.

the way i see it, marek had a tough time against shaak ti. what makes you think he can beat a much superior jedi like windu?

As mentioned before, the Revenge of the Sith screenplay depicts Palpatine overpowering Windu and hurling him across the office with telekinesis (the novelization features a similar scene). Vaapad is not going to protect him against all concentrated efforts from a superior Force user, no matter how deep he's in.

Pretending otherwise has no factual basis and is, quite frankly, silly.

Originally posted by Gideon
Who said this? Originally posted by kodiak430
Obi Wan defeated vader in the movie, therefore he will do it again.
Mareks superior force abilities will allow him to destroy windu.
So it comes down to Obi Wan and Marek... not that complicated Originally posted by SonOfTheSuns
I agree that Marek would defeat Windu through the Force. The only reason Mace beat Palps was because Palps felt Anakin through the Force, and wanted to make him Vader.

As for Obi, and Vader it depends on where they are fighting. In ROTS Vader had Obi beat, and Obi jumped up on the hill. Vader became overconfident and that led to him getting dismembered. If it was in Geonosis Arena, or someplace like that, then Obi would die.

Haatyc or'arue jate'shya ori'sol aru'ike nuhaatyc - "Better one big enemy that you can see than many small ones you can't."

That was easy. That was just from the page before.. I'm sure there is more.... Now, responses like these make me go WTF

ur response right there made me go WTF. i have no idea what ur talking about right now

Originally posted by kodiak430
ur response right there made me go WTF. i have no idea what ur talking about right now

Read my comments on the previous page.. and then Gideon quotes me as you can see asking who said this... I quoted you and others saying what I claimed they did.

ok..

Originally posted by Gideon
As mentioned before, the Revenge of the Sith screenplay depicts Palpatine overpowering Windu and hurling him across the office with telekinesis (the novelization features a similar scene).
Gideon's real feelings about the script:

Originally posted by Gideon
Wrong, it isn't canon. And if my word alone isn't good enough (which it is), there's the simple fact that it doesn't fit in with the rest of the movie, script, or novelization.

Also Galen Marek was reddemed at the end of TFU he was likely a lightsider at the time. Ergo Vaapad's superconducting loop would not come into play. Mace would have to rely on his own power this time.

Originally posted by ares834
Also Galen Marek was reddemed at the end of TFU he was likely a lightsider at the time. Ergo Vaapad's superconducting loop would not come into play. Mace would have to rely on his own power this time.
This is Dark Jedi Galen, per OP...

vaapad doesnt make windu all powerful though. he still is beaten by sith

Originally posted by Gideon
the Revenge of the Sith screenplay depicts Palpatine overpowering Windu and hurling him across the office with telekinesis (the novelization features a similar scene). No it doesn't.

Originally posted by Galan007
No it doesn't.
The comic does.
Originally posted by Enyalus
This is Dark Jedi Galen, per OP...
Doh!

yeah, he only throws him out the window, which is so different

Originally posted by Derelite


Are you and kodiak bros? I noticed your favorite movies/quotes are the same, or very similar in your profiles.

nah probably just coincidence. thats cool though

haha thats funny. gotta love will ferrel!

oh yeahhhh

Originally posted by kodiak430
yeah, he only throws him out the window, which is so different This scene from the RotS novelization:

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad."


Is much different than this:

Originally posted by Derelite
haha thats funny. gotta love will ferrel!
Only when he plays Alex Trebek.

Galan007
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut.

According to the novelization, then, a moment's distraction was enough for Palpatine to nearly kill him. Where was the almighty Vaapad then?



Desperate? Hardly the musings of a man who is 'pwning' his enemy, nor hardly the state of mind with one who possesses an invincible, infallible form/state-of-mind that will enable him to triumph over any foe!!1!



Is it not? One doesn't have to be at one's full strength (or attention) to be overpowered, and Windu was nearly hurled out of the office. Of course the correct expression I used was "similar," so....



Where was Vaapad then?

man i need to read that book again. and galan, mace IS thrown out the window at the end of the fight...

Originally posted by Gideon
According to the novelization, then, a moment's distraction was enough for Palpatine to nearly kill him. Where was the almighty Vaapad then? Mace was nearly force pushed out of the hole he just made (an effort which Mace swiftly countered), while he was distracted.

Originally posted by Gideon
Desperate? Hardly the musings of a man who is 'pwning' his enemy, nor hardly the state of mind with one who possesses an invincible, infallible form/state-of-mind that will enable him to triumph over any foe!!1! You certainly do like to cherry pick. Sidious attacked Mace while he was distracted and was still unable to harm him. Bottom line.

Originally posted by Gideon
Is it not? One doesn't have to be at one's full strength (or attention) to be overpowered, and Windu was nearly hurled out of the office. Of course the correct expression I used was "similar," so.... Windu was in no way/shape/form 'overpowered' in the excerpt I posted. He was momentarily distracted, and in that moment Palpatine tried to push him out of the hole he'd just made... But to no avail.

Why are you making more out of this then need be?

Originally posted by Gideon
Where was Vaapad then? This screenplay quote you're clinging to did not happen in the film, or in the novel. Why are you trying to use it as evidence?



Originally posted by kodiak430
man i need to read that book again. and galan, mace IS thrown out the window at the end of the fight... You mean after he is left armless by Anakin's b*tch move?

Galan007
Mace was nearly force pushed out of the hole he just made (an effort which Mace swiftly countered), while he was distracted.

And if Vaapad is apparently a catch-all power that means Mace can open a can of whuppass on every dark side Force user evar!!1! then that wouldn't have happened, now would it?



I'm not the one trying to cherrypick; you're the one who's given two instances from two canon sources that shows that Vaapad still isn't enough to guarantee Mace a victory against Palpatine, and that there were ways in which Palpatine could have clearly won, hence the "desperate" line.



Sure he was, hence his "desperation." Stover's (canon) words, not mine.



Because as per Stover's own words, what was in the novelization was there because George Lucas personally wanted it there. He line-edited the whole thing. So, logically, Lucas wanted to show that Vaapad doesn't make Windu and Vaapad some sort of deus ex machina that guarantees him a victory against every dark sider.

:facepalm:

Originally posted by Gideon
And if Vaapad is apparently a catch-all power that means Mace can open a can of whuppass on every dark side Force user evar!!1! then that wouldn't have happened, now would it? Comments like these are the only time your youth shines through. Let's keep the snide comments to a minimum, we're both adults here.

Anyhow, please post the quote where I said that Mace can defeat 'any dark side user, ever'... Rhetorical, I can assure you I've never said such. Furthermore, Palpatine almost pushing a distracted Mace out of a window is in no way a low feat for Mace. That is a fact you cannot dodge, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not the one trying to cherrypick; you're the one who's given two instances from two canon sources that shows that Vaapad still isn't enough to guarantee Mace a victory against Palpatine, and that there were ways in which Palpatine could have clearly won, hence the "desperate" line. Vaapad still wasn't enough to guarantee a victory for Mace? You are aware that Vaapad was pretty much the main reason Mace beat Palpatine, right?

It could also be argued that Mace wasn't actively employing Vaapad in that particular scene, hence the line: "he bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad."

Originally posted by Gideon
Because as per Stover's own words, what was in the novelization was there because George Lucas personally wanted it there. He line-edited the whole thing. So, logically, Lucas wanted to show that Vaapad doesn't make Windu and Vaapad some sort of deus ex machina that guarantees him a victory against every dark sider. I don't follow this logic at all. if GL really wanted these facts to be known, he would have included them in either the film or the novel... But he didn't. So yeah...

I'm baiting you, which is working, given your increased number of errors and mistakes.



lulwut

You're not getting it, James. There is an obstruction between your brain and THE TRUTH. The reality isn't that Windu lost or Palpatine won, but that Vaapad alone is not enough to guarantee Windu a victory against Palpatine, like some sort of magic catch-all trick that the Emperor is just helpless against. This is relevant because we're discussing how Vaapad works against other dark siders. If Vaapad guaranteed that Windu would have pwned Palpatine, then he wouldn't have nearly been blown out the fvcking window, which is my point.

He still could have died (he did) and he still could have lost the duel. Vaapad's impressive, but in no way did it mean the Emperor was doomed from the start.



haermm

Thanks to the metaphysical obstruction between your brain and reality, my words are getting lost. I will now use my superconducting loop to clear this obstacle so that my words will penetrate your very soul.

...

There. Moving on, my point is that Vaapad isn't, as you apparently now admit, enough to guarantee Mace an automatic victory against a dark sider. The form is fallible; it can be defeated, as demonstrated when even Windu 'cut loose', he still didn't annihilate Sidious and could have died.



Or, as it appears to those of us without truth obstructions in our brains, it means that Windu wasn't actively employing Vaapad because he was nearly thrown out of a fvcking window and nearly shat (yes, shat, not shit) his snug Jedi robes.

I'm teasing you, you understand?

Originally posted by Gideon


There. Moving on, my point is that Vaapad isn't, as you apparently now admit, enough to guarantee Mace an automatic victory against a dark sider. The form is fallible; it can be defeated, as demonstrated when even Windu 'cut loose', he still didn't annihilate Sidious and could have died.



That's a strawman.

No, it's not.

That doesn't correlate to what you're accusing his stance of being in any way, shape, or form. Stating that Galen doesn't get an auto-win due to his superior raw force prowess does not translate into "Mace can beat any dark sider because of Vapaad".

Originally posted by Gideon
If Vaapad guaranteed that Windu would have pwned Palpatine, then he wouldn't have nearly been blown out the fvcking window, which is my point. Mace disengaged from the duel at hand, thus disengaging from Vaapad (as evident from the last sentence of the excerpt I posted) -- he then jumped over to the window and broke it -- Palps tried to force push Mace out of that window while he was distracted, and not concentrating on the duel -- Mace force pushes himself the other direction to counter this attempt -- Mace then reenters Vaapad-mode again and proceeds to beat Sidious shortly thereafter.

You're trying to make that instance a low showing for Vaapad, when it clearly isn't.

Originally posted by Gideon
There. Moving on, my point is that Vaapad isn't, as you apparently now admit, enough to guarantee Mace an automatic victory against a dark sider. The form is fallible; it can be defeated, as demonstrated when even Windu 'cut loose', he still didn't annihilate Sidious and could have died. The form was 'fallible' when (a) it's user didn't appear to be actively employing it, and (b) when he was cheap-shotted while distracted from the duel at hand.

But when Mace was actively dueling Sidious, Vaapad it did it's job very well.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm teasing you, you understand? I know now. Before I just thought you were trying to be an arrogant little prick.

Originally posted by Galan007
You mean after he is left armless by Anakin's b*tch move? yeah that doesn't matter, i was just sayin

Blax
That doesn't correlate to what you're accusing his stance of being in any way, shape, or form. Stating that Galen doesn't get an auto-win due to his superior raw force prowess does not translate into "Mace can beat any dark sider because of Vapaad".

wtf

Galen said that Marek won't win through his superior Force powers because of Vaapad; what I'm doing here is showing that Vaapad does not give Windu an automatic victory.

But if you want, we can pretend that what I said has absolutely nothing to do with it.



Uh, no. No. No, I have the novelization right in front of me, and nothing says that disengaging from Palpatine's blade is what took Windu out of Vaapad. It's far more likely that what did that was when he was nearly thrown out the window and had to desperately alter his trajectory.



Who said it was a low showing? I'm just using it as evidence that it certainly doesn't give Windu an automatic victory here.



wut?

You're missing the point, James: no one's disputing that Vaapad enabled Windu to defeat Palpatine. What is being said is that Windu doesn't get an auto-win against dark siders (including Palpatine) because of Vaapad, since -- according to the novelization itself -- Vaapad was only enough to stalemate Palpatine.

Originally posted by Gideon
wtf

Galen said that Marek won't win through his superior Force powers because of Vaapad; what I'm doing here is showing that Vaapad does not give Windu an automatic victory.


Even those two statements there, justas you said them and worded them, don't correlate at all.

Originally posted by Gideon
What is being said is that Windu doesn't get an auto-win against dark siders (including Palpatine) because of Vaapad I never said that Vaapad gives Mace an auto-win. The only reason I brought up the Mace/Sidious battle in the first place is because very few seemed to understand/recognize the fact that Galen having superior force powers doesn't mean much at all against Vaapad... Mace's battle with (and defeat of) the far more force-powerful Sidious is a perfect example of that.

Originally posted by Gideon
according to the novelization itself -- Vaapad was only enough to stalemate Palpatine. Which is why I have said several times before, that Vaapad made Mace = Sidious. Vaapad + Shatterpoint made Mace > Sidious. Look it up if you want.

Originally posted by Derelite
haha thats funny. gotta love will ferrel! You have a rotten soul.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He's got a powerful command of the Force to boot, so Marek won't be TKing his ass either. And Vaapad's not exactly something Marek's used to. I'm not saying it would be easy, but Marek would have to score a KO within minutes, lest Mace submerge. How do you think Mace stacks up to OT Vader as far as the Force goes? Cause didn't Marek trash him?

Juyo vs Vaapad? Interesting fight . . . yet I'm going to have to go with Galen on this one. Galen in the novelization had trouble with Shaak Ti yes because he had truly faced a skilled and disiplined lightsaber artist. As to Vader, Galen pawned him because of his superior ability in the Force. Mace wouldn't be kicking his ass in lightsaber, but Mace's ass would be getting kicked by Galen in the Force fight.

Galen vs Obi-Wan? Tough call. Obi-Wan was the absolute master of Soresu. Marek was probably superior in Force strength and that would tip the scale of the fight. Galen then turns on Vader and Juyo vs Djem So. The Chosen One vs The Orphan. Tough call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz6IMjdthr4

Blax
Even those two statements there, justas you said them and worded them, don't correlate at all.



So let me get this straight: Galen saying that Marek will lose because of Mace's Vaapad has no correlation with me disproving that Vaapad doesn't grant Windu an automatic win?

Right....

Originally posted by Gideon
So let me get this straight: Galen saying that Marek will lose because of Mace's Vaapad has no correlation with me disproving that Vaapad doesn't grant Windu an automatic win? Let me try to break down my opinion on a Mace/Galen battle on every possible level...

Imo, RotS Sidious > dark Jedi Galen (I think everyone would agree with that.) Mace no less than stalemated RotS Sidious. That being said, if Mace can stalemate Sidious, then he should logically be able to defeat a dark sider whom is weaker than Sidious (Galen.)

In a nutshell: RotS Mace = RotS Sidious > dark Jedi Galen... And that's not factoring in abilities like Shatterpoint.


I honestly cannot make my opinion any clearer then that. ermm

That's ABC logic at its finest...

Originally posted by ares834
That's ABC logic at its finest...

I see, so we never factor actual combat fights into equations to come to logical conclusions about other fights? Of course not, because when they do prove a logical point, the old your using an ABC argument gets brought into play yet again. Honestly, you do know that actual combat situations and vs fights are some of the best proof you can look to when breaking down other fights right? Or do you never consider any vs battles since they Ar3 Th3 ABC L0G1C!!!!!

Except when someone comes straight out and claims "RotS Mace = RotS Sidious > dark Jedi Galen" it's flawed... Sure stalemating Sidious is a very impresive feat, but claiming that it insatantly makes him superior is flawed. There are other factors involved than just POWA LVLZ!!1!1

Anyway, I want to point out that when Sidious used the force against Mace during their lightsaber duel he was hit hard. And Galen Marek is very talanted at flowing into force attacks during lightsaber duels. Just a small consideration.

Originally posted by ares834
That's ABC logic at its finest... It's no more illogical then assuming a guy who can bench 300lbs, can also bench 200lbs.

If Mace can stalemate Sidious, then he should be able to defeat someone weaker than Sidious.

^ That, no offense, was extraordinarily inept.

A duel to the death between two sufficiently skilled Force users involves a lot moar factors than bench-pressing. Bench-pressing is fairly straightforward and fairly simple; duels require a complex series of actions, sequences, and movements -- and that's just with the lightsaber.

Vaapad didn't make Windu infallible in that match, the novelization and screenplay both depict him falling victim to a Force push, not to mention that it didn't stop his teammates from dying (if Windu's Vaapad was perfect, then he should have been able to annihilate Sidious with the assistance of the other Masters) nor did it prevent him from being driven back into the main office.

You can't automatically assume that circumstances would occur to allow Windu to defeat a more powerful adversary just because he managed to do so before.

Let's do some more ABC logic...

Anakin>Dooku>Obi-Wan>Anakin?

TPM Mace Windu = Qui-Gon < Darth Maul < TPM Obi-Wan

Mace Windu = RotS Sidious = Yoda

Jedi Exile > Nihilus > 100's of Jedi

The list goes on and on.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww38/coolsaber57/Facepalm-1.gif

@ Gideon...

i think you dun lost your touch, son. u try to throw out insults @ people who dont agree with you even though they are right. its kind of funny and sad at the same time. youve made no good points in this thread (and ive read the whole thing) all you do is cling to one or two things that seem to help your argument and ignore the numerous things that contradict you. give it a rest kid.

newayz, team 1 wins for reason that hav already been mentioned.

ja
@ Gideon...

i think you dun lost your touch, son. u try to throw out insults @ people who dont agree with you even though they are right. its kind of funny and sad at the same time. youve made no good points in this thread (and ive read the whole thing) all you do is cling to one or two things that seem to help your argument and ignore the numerous things that contradict you. give it a rest kid.

newayz, team 1 wins for reason that hav already been mentioned.

Guess you missed the part where I said I was teasing Galan? And here I thought you said you read the whole thing.

In either case, you certainly aren't someone whose opinion matters to me, since I don't have the foggiest idea who you are. But I appreciate the fact that you really think enough of me to stalk me here. I love being the center of someone else's universe.

Originally posted by Gideon
^ That, no offense, was extraordinarily inept.

A duel to the death between two sufficiently skilled Force users involves a lot moar factors than bench-pressing. Bench-pressing is fairly straightforward and fairly simple; duels require a complex series of actions, sequences, and movements -- and that's just with the lightsaber.

Vaapad didn't make Windu infallible in that match, the novelization and screenplay both depict him falling victim to a Force push, not to mention that it didn't stop his teammates from dying (if Windu's Vaapad was perfect, then he should have been able to annihilate Sidious with the assistance of the other Masters) nor did it prevent him from being driven back into the main office.

You can't automatically assume that circumstances would occur to allow Windu to defeat a more powerful adversary just because he managed to do so before. Originally posted by ares834
Let's do some more ABC logic...

Anakin>Dooku>Obi-Wan>Anakin?

TPM Mace Windu = Qui-Gon < Darth Maul < TPM Obi-Wan

Mace Windu = RotS Sidious = Yoda

Jedi Exile > Nihilus > 100's of Jedi

The list goes on and on.
....I'm fairly convinced that no one even knows what they're arguing about anymore. sheppardanime29

Originally posted by Gideon
Guess you missed the part where I said I was teasing Galan? wink1

Originally posted by Gideon
In either case, you certainly aren't someone whose opinion matters to me, since I don't have the foggiest idea who you are. who am i? im your worst nightmare, kid. evillaugh

Originally posted by Gideon
^ That, no offense, was extraordinarily inept.

A duel to the death between two sufficiently skilled Force users involves a lot moar factors than bench-pressing. Bench-pressing is fairly straightforward and fairly simple; duels require a complex series of actions, sequences, and movements -- and that's just with the lightsaber.

Vaapad didn't make Windu infallible in that match, the novelization and screenplay both depict him falling victim to a Force push, not to mention that it didn't stop his teammates from dying (if Windu's Vaapad was perfect, then he should have been able to annihilate Sidious with the assistance of the other Masters) nor did it prevent him from being driven back into the main office.

You can't automatically assume that circumstances would occur to allow Windu to defeat a more powerful adversary just because he managed to do so before.

What do you mean "perfect"?

How did you know I was homophobic?

Originally posted by Gideon
How did you know I was homophobic?

I didn't know cowboys could be homophobic.

Originally posted by kodiak430
i believe the rots book says that sidious was holding back in the fight against windu. Even in the movie, hes acting all weak and everything, and as soon as anakin cuts windus hand off, he gets a smirk on his face and blasts him with force lightning

WRONG!!!

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
WRONG!!!
WRONG!!!

Originally posted by ares834
WRONG!!! Actually, he/they aren't wrong at all. Kodiak said that the novel mentioned Palpatine holding back against Mace... And it doesn't.

As for the audio commentary quote you posted, here's the whole thing:Originally posted by George Lucas
This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something I added later

So while GL acknowledges that Palpatine pretended to lose his powers at the end, he also acknowledges Mace legitimately "overpowering" him. So yeah...

Originally posted by Galan007
Actually, he/they aren't wrong at all. Kodiak said that the novel mentioned of holding back against Mace... And it doesn't.

But Kodiak also said:



No one said anything about Mace not winning the saber portion of the duel. Kodiak was mentioning that Palpatine was faking and he was right.

^ All things considered, Sidious faking being weak doesn't really matter where the battle is concerned. Per GL, Mace had already "overpowered" Sidious, and rendered his force lightning ineffectual. What else was there for him to do beside plea to Anakin for help?

Vaapad would at least balance out most of the Force power differential between them. What couldn't be balanced out is Mace's unbelievably large edge in saber skills. We're talking about probably the second best duelist in the entire PT saga, against a Dark Jedi Galen who struggled in a saber contest against both Kota and Ti....

The Force contest would be close because of Vaapad dampening that edge for Galen. The saber contest is no contest because of Mace's overwhelming skill and Shatterpoint ability.

The "overpowered" part clearly only refers to the lightsaber portion of the duel.

Originally posted by ares834
The "overpowered" part clearly only refers to the lightsaber portion of the duel.
The "overpowered" part clearly refers to their entire duel up until Sidious uses his Force Lightning (that's the "powers" part). By then, Sidious was already on his ass.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Vaapad would at least balance out most of the Force power differential between them. What couldn't be balanced out is Mace's unbelievably large edge in saber skills. We're talking about probably the second best duelist in the entire PT saga, against a Dark Jedi Galen who struggled in a saber contest against both Kota and Ti....

The Force contest would be close because of Vaapad dampening that edge for Galen. The saber contest is no contest because of Mace's overwhelming skill and Shatterpoint ability. *e-hug*

Originally posted by ares834
The "overpowered" part clearly only refers to the lightsaber portion of the duel. 'Overpowered' is referring to everything that happened up until Sidious was on the ground using his FL. But it still cannot be argued that Mace did in fact render his lightning completely ineffectual.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ All things considered, Sidious faking being weak doesn't really matter where the battle is concerned. Per GL, Mace had already "overpowered" Sidious, and rendered his force lightning ineffectual. What else was there for him to do beside plea to Anakin for help? Hold up... What? When did Windu render Palpatine's lightning ineffectual? I remember Windu struggling to contain the lightning and almost being overpowered by it. And he probably would have been overpowered by it had Palpatine not stopped the attack.

Windu BARELY won the saber duel after losing three of his partners to Palpatine's blade, and being forced on the defensive for the majority of the duel. Palpatine didn't even use his offensive force powers until he lost the duel and had no other alternative. Who is to say that every dark side user will do the same?

Originally posted by Galan007
Ineffectual in that the lightning most certainly did not harm Mace. Sure it was a struggle for him to block it, but he still blocked it nonetheless.
True. But had Palpatine countinued Mace would have been fried. The RotS novel says that "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade" and immediately before Sidious let up "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Originally posted by ares834
True. But had Palpatine countinued Mace would have been fried. The RotS novel says that "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade" and immediately before Sidious let up "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."
Yet, he still continued to block even though he supposedly had no strength left. There's no proof that Mace would have been fried before Palpatine himself if Sidious had kept it up. Recall, it was Palpatine who was taking the damage - not Mace.

Originally posted by ares834
True. But had Palpatine countinued Mace would have been fried. The RotS novel says that "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade" and immediately before Sidious let up "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Speculation and nothing more. What we do know for a fact is that Mace outlasted Sids in that portion of the fight. Sids was clearly feeling the effects of it and this is apparent by his face melting off. So.. he was feeling it, struggling (just as Mace was), he then comments that he is too weak to continue and stops. This is what we know for facts.. what you're purposing is speculation to justify Sids losing the battle (both saber and force)

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yet, he still continued to block even though he supposedly had no strength left. There's no proof that Mace would have been fried before Palpatine himself if Sidious had kept it up. Recall, it was Palpatine who was taking the damage - not Mace.
Notice what it says. "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." Sure he managed to countinue blocking Sidious's lightning but now his lightsaber began to be pushed back into his face by the force of the lightning. And as my other quote explains the blade was so close that Mace "was choking on ozone". And this was right before Palpatine pretended to be weak.

Originally posted by ares834
Notice what it says. "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." Sure he managed to countinue blocking Sidious's lightning but now his lightsaber began to be pushed back into his face by the force of the lightning. And as my other quote explains the blade was so close that Mace "was choking on ozone". And this was right before Palpatine pretended to be weak.
And yet, Mace kept it up. Palpatine gave out. The end.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And yet, Mace kept it up. Palpatine gave out. The end.
Mace kept what up? Blocking Palpatine's lightning... Yeah he did. But what he did not keep up was stopping his lightsaber from bending into his face as both my quotes show. He had no strength left to fight against his blade so it began to bend up in his face. Had Palpatine countinued his storm of lightning he would have killed Mace.

Originally posted by ares834
Mace kept what up? Blocking Palpatine's lightning... Yeah he did. But what he did not keep up was stopping his lightsaber from bending into his face as both my quotes show. He had no strength left to fight against his blade so it began to bend up in his face. Had Palpatine countinued his storm of lightning he would have killed Mace.

You conveniently leave out the entire context of those quotes of yours. It goes like this:

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

"Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.

The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.

"I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease-"

Sidious' own lightning was already killing himself by the time Mace's blade became unsteady. And despite the author noting it, he has Mace continue to stand there and deflect lightning for another sentence of Palpatine's and then some, until Palpatine fires a final gout and shuts things down. How much longer do you really think Palpatine could continue to keep eating his own lightning? Because clearly, Mace could have continued reflecting it...as the novel makes clear.

-Mace "overpowered" Sidious.
-Sidious was being deformed by the tremendous 'strain and exertion' caused from his lightning being reflected back at him.
-Sidious was the only one harmed by the lightning.
-Sidious gave out before Mace.

Stop trying to justify things in Sidious' favor. It's getting old.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Sidious was being deformed by the tremendous 'strain and exertion' caused from his lightning being reflected back at him.
Exactly. Sidious' own lightning was burning away the muscles in his face, deforming the bones in his skull and melting the molecular structure of his face in general. It was killing him. There's no practical reason to assume that Sidious could have kept up his barrage for longer than Mace could keep up deflecting it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You conveniently leave out the entire context of those quotes of yours. It goes like this:

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

"Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.

The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.

"I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease-"

Sidious' own lightning was already killing himself by the time Mace's blade became unsteady.
Ok... We all saw the movie and know Palpatine was taking a full blast to his face. Yet there is nothing to suggest that he would have been killed in the very near future if he countined pouring it out. Heck Galan007 posted a quote by GL that shows the lightning was not what changed his face but the effort to keep the lightning flowing.

Except no where does Stover say Mace can't countine to reflect it. What he says is Mace can no longer fight against his blade. Which he clearly can't as at the end of the passage it is very near his face.

But he could not keep his own lightsaber from getting pushed into his face.

It really is... I mean honestly, are these things that hard to comprehend. Sids lost the saber battle, and sids also gave out first in the force battle. This happening doesn't change the fact that he's one of the strongest sith lords ever, if not the strongest ever. Thus you can sleep better at night knowing your boy toy is still one strong mother F'er

Originally posted by ares834
Except no where does Stover say Mace can't countine to reflect it. What he says is Mace can no longer fight against his blade. Which he clearly can't as at the end of the passage it is very near his face.

But he could not keep his own lightsaber from getting pushed into his face.
Stop being dense. Stover writes the line about Mace's lightsaber being pushed back. And then he writes Palpatine saying an entire sentence, and blasting him with another gout. If Mace couldn't have fought against his blade anymore, then during that sentence and the lightning that followed it, he'd have been beheaded by his own blade. It didn't happen. No matter how apologetic you're attempting to be to explain away Palpatine's loss.

Palpatine's lightning was killing Palpatine. Mace's blade was not killing Mace.

Get over it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Ineffectual in that the lightning most certainly did not harm Mace. Sure it was a struggle for him to block it, but he still blocked it nonetheless. And though Palpatine may not have been powerless at the end of the battle, it was certainly strenuous for him to keep maintaining the lightning while it was simultaneously getting shoved back down his throat I would say Windu would tire out before Palpatine would have. Palpatine was pretending to be weak and lose his powers, whereas Windu was not pretending to struggle with it. I do not see how Palpatine was in any real danger from his own lightning if he had to pretend.

I'll check it out again.

You mean Palpatine was on Mace like white on rice. The databank even says Palpatine was "forcing the mighty Windu back," not the other way around.

::double facepalm::

How can you call him dense? If it was killing him then how was he pretending to be weak. Usually when something is killing you, it's automatic that your body starts to weaken.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I would say Windu would tire out before Palpatine would have. Palpatine was pretending to be weak and lose his powers, whereas Windu was not pretending to struggle with it. I do not see how Palpatine was in any real danger from his own lightning if he had to pretend. See the previous posts on this page.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You mean Palpatine was on Mace like white on rice. The databank even says Palpatine was "forcing the mighty Windu back," not the other way around. This implies that Palpatine was controlling the duel... He certainly was not.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Stop being dense. Stover writes the line about Mace's lightsaber being pushed back. And then he writes Palpatine saying an entire sentence, and blasting him with another gout. If Mace couldn't have fought against his blade anymore, then during that sentence and the lightning that followed it, he'd have been beheaded by his own blade. It didn't happen. No matter how apologetic you're attempting to be to explain away Palpatine's loss.
No where did Stover say Mace's lightsaber would go flying back into face. It was being pushed back. I have direct canon evidence saying Mace could no longer hold back his blade and evidence that it was pushed back into his face. Yet you claim it isn't true.


But it would have.

Shit. This is not only ridiculous, it's getting tedious. This is my final post on the matter.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How can you call him dense? If it was killing him then how was he pretending to be weak. Usually when something is killing you, it's automatic that your body starts to weaken.
Per the novel which you and Ares are clinging to, Sidious' muscles were being burned away and the bones of his skull were softening/melting. That doesn't sound like serious injury and the beginning signs of death to you? From Palpatine's own mouth, he says Mace is killing him. Enough crap.
Originally posted by ares834
No where did Stover say Mace's lightsaber would go flying back into face. It was being pushed back. I have direct canon evidence saying Mace could no longer hold back his blade and evidence that it was pushed back into his face. Yet you claim it isn't true.
Are you so confused that you forgot what you were arguing for? I never said it wasn't being pushed back. You argued that if Palpatine had kept it up, Mace's blade would have continued to be pushed back into his face, presumably killing him. I countered that even after the point where Stover wrote that, Mace persisted in blocking and his blade was not pushed back into his own face. Ergo, he could have persisted in blocking Sidious' lightning for an undetermined amount of time if Sidious had kept it up. Sidious, on the other hand, was dying already from his own bolts of energy.

If anyone had a reason to give up first, it was Sidious. Which he did.

Period.

Originally posted by Enyalus
From Palpatine's own mouth, he says Mace is killing him. Enough crap.
From Mace's own mouth, he says Palpatine is too strong for him.


And it was. Sidious's ligthning was pushing back Mace's blade into his face and when it was near enough that Mace literaly was choking on it. Sidious let up. Yeah it may not have been instantly pushed back into his face, something I never said, but it was moving toward it. Which was allways my point. Mace could not have held out for much longer, his blade was being pushed into his face and he did not have the power to stop it.



Anyway... it was being pushed back into his face. He had no strength left to hold it back, ergo it's moving toward his face.


And he could have lived for an undetermined time had Mace countined to reflect back his lightning.


Yeah he did. So he could fully ensnare Anakin in his web of lies.

Someone needs further English lessons to determine the difference between the Past Perfect Simple tense and Past Perfect Progressive tense. And that someone is Ares.

I attempted to mitigate the extent of your fail by allowing you to gracefully bow out. Afterall, acceptance is the first step towards recovering from addiction. But no, you insisted on keeping up your false conclusions when all you need to do is come and kneel before me to beg your forgiveness. I will not judge you for your impotence, my child. There is no shame in conceding to me.

Do the right thing. Quit.

The Wizard of Oz is on TCM right now, so I'm in a good mood.

Therefore, I forgive all past transgressions against myself and my impeccable logic, and reiterate that the Jedi win this match.

Love and kisses to all. Have a pleasant evening.