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who wins this battle using sabers only. no force powers.

Sids and Anakin win in any toss up.

This is how is see it...

Mace = Palpatine.
"Zone" Anakin > Obi-Wan.
That leaves "Zone" Anakin and Palps to gangbang Mace.

Team 2 wins.

The sith.

ya

Palpatine might very well defeat Windu on his own under these rather straight forward circumstances, and Skywalker will slaughter Kenobi.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is how is see it...

Mace = Palpatine.
"Zone" Anakin > Obi-Wan.
That leaves "Zone" Anakin and Palps to gangbang Mace.

Team 2 wins.

How is Mace = to Palpatine? He beat him when the emperor was using force powers and sabers. He disarmed him and beat him for the sabers portion.. yet they are equal

Originally posted by Gideon
ya

Palpatine might very well defeat Windu on his own under these rather straight forward circumstances, and Skywalker will slaughter Kenobi.

Yet isn't it MORE likely Mace would beat Palpatine under these rather straight forward circumstances? Sure Palps COULD beat anybody.. but we go by what is more likely to happen. Mace already proved his superior in saber combat, and one in which the Emperor was also using force powers

Also, didn't you say that Dooku and ROTS Kenobi could be a stalemate for a very long time? Yet you feel Kenobi's SOreso would pose the same advantage against Anakin as it did in ROTS. He still knows Anakin inside and out and is tailor made to hold of someone assault till he finds an opening.

Also when I said no force powers I still wanted Mace to have shatterpoint.

Not more likely; here, Windu won't have three companions to die for him and Palpatine will be fighting to kill (there's no Anakin to seduce or manipulate). Palpatine initially held the advantage, and he will likely do so again, because Mace simply isn't Palpatine's equal in power or ability until he's submerged in Vaapad. If he gets into Vaapad, then it could still go either way, but prior to that, Palpatine has the upper hand.



This isn't accurate.

Mace proved that he was the victor in a strict contest of swords and then managed to fend off the Emperor's Force lightning in a specific set of circumstances; he didn't, for instance, overpower or deflect the Emperor's Force push in the screenplay or novelization; Palpatine is still miles beyond Windu in terms of Force strength.



Dooku and Skywalker "in teh zone" aren't comparable; Skywalker is far more powerful in such a state.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not more likely; here, Windu won't have three companions to die for him and Palpatine will be fighting to kill (there's no Anakin to seduce or manipulate). Palpatine initially held the advantage, and he will likely do so again, because Mace simply isn't Palpatine's equal in power or ability until he's submerged in Vaapad. If he gets into Vaapad, then it could still go either way, but prior to that, Palpatine has the upper hand.



This isn't accurate.

Mace proved that he was the victor in a strict contest of swords and then managed to fend off the Emperor's Force lightning in a specific set of circumstances; he didn't, for instance, overpower or deflect the Emperor's Force push in the screenplay or novelization; Palpatine is still miles beyond Windu in terms of Force strength.



Dooku and Skywalker "in teh zone" aren't comparable; Skywalker is far more powerful in such a state.

So let me get this straight... your saying Palpatine could've killed Mace but didn't because he was trying to manipulate Anakin? If not, they why bring up this irrelevant fact? I was trying to kill Mace and failed.. and thus he had to resort to winning via plan B. Unless of course you're saying he could've but just didn't.

Also, why mention Palp being miles beyond Windu in terms of force strength? That is something that won't factor into this fight. You are also wrong in that Windu did force push back against the emperor push to stop himself from being forced out the window. So, yet he did deflect his force push.

Wasn't Dooku also not trying to kill Anakin? It wasn't clear that his master wanted him alive to try and turn him? One person going all out and another not, doesn't make for conclusive proof.

Futhermore, one quick query... When Anakin killed a "helpless" Dooku.. why couldn't Obi, Yoda, Mace or anybody sense this was the case. In other instances they had no issue reading his thoughts and mind. Yet here, they had no clue?

KT
So let me get this straight... your saying Palpatine could've killed Mace but didn't because he was trying to manipulate Anakin? If not, they why bring up this irrelevant fact? I was trying to kill Mace and failed.. and thus he had to resort to winning via plan B. Unless of course you're saying he could've but just didn't.

(Semi-) correct.



He did not push against the Emperor, he pushed against a statue to alter his trajectory.



The New Essential Chronology says that Dooku fought for his life against Skywalker when he realized that he was in mortal danger; he stopped toying with him when the tide turned against him.



Probably because he was trying to shield this from them.

Originally posted by Gideon
(Semi-) correct.



He did not push against the Emperor, he pushed against a statue to alter his trajectory.



The New Essential Chronology says that Dooku fought for his life against Skywalker when he realized that he was in mortal danger; he stopped toying with him when the tide turned against him.



Probably because he was trying to shield this from them.

1. Fair enough
2. i see. My only point is, that he did in essence reflect and divert his path that the emperor had him on via his own force powers.
3. Fair enough. However, isn't it also clear that Dooku's form has a "inherit" weakness against strong striking forms like Anakin's? Something that Soreso doesn't have, and in fact, probably works the best against?
4. Well yes that is certainly the most probably explanation never given, however, he's tried to shield stuff from them before I believe and they still knew.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

3. Fair enough. However, isn't it also clear that Dooku's form has a "inherit" weakness against strong striking forms like Anakin's? Something that Soreso doesn't have, and in fact, probably works the best against?
Ugh...I see this brought up all the time. The book says Makashi didn't have the kinetic power to match Djem So head to head. But in reality Makashi doesn't have the power to match nearly any form head to head as its not intended to do that. Afterall Makashi is usually used one handed. Regardless almost no form could have matched Anakin's superstrength at that time.

Edit: I hate doing this form analysis as I believe it is irrelevant but no form, besides maybe Juyo/Vaapad, could match a talanted Djem So user head to head.

I'm going to object to that, partially. We see on screen that Count Dooku is capable of resisting strikes and attacks from those who are otherwise far more powerful in terms of physical strength and capability; I think a more accurate assessment of Makashi's strengths and weaknesses is that it simply cannot hold out indefinitely against a sufficiently skilled Djem So user head-to-head. But suggesting that Djem So > Makashi is dishonest and untrue, because that would mean that Count Dooku would be automatically inferior to any worthy Djem So duelist, which is not the case.

As far as Windu vs. Palpatine is concerned, the reason I say that Palpatine has an excellent chance of winning is because the novelization, official databank, and movie make it abundantly clear that Windu was initially not Palpatine's equal; this fact is what prevented Mace from stopping Palpatine from killing his fellow Jedi Masters, and why Windu was forced back into the main office. It was only, as per the novelization, when Windu submerged himself into the metaphysical depths of Vaapad that he was able to use Palpatine's own superior power against him in such a way that resulted in parity between the two.

In this situation, those three Jedi companions will be absent; Windu's only teammate, Kenobi, will be preoccupied with Anakin, and Windu will be forced to face Palpatine's wrath alone. Palpatine stands an excellent chance of killing Windu, especially initially, since it will take time for Windu to become Palpatine's "equal." This is not to say that Palpatine will definitely win, but that early on in the fight, the odds are against Mace.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm going to object to that, partially. We see on screen that Count Dooku is capable of resisting strikes and attacks from those who are otherwise far more powerful in terms of physical strength and capability; I think a more accurate assessment of Makashi's strengths and weaknesses is that it simply cannot hold out indefinitely against a sufficiently skilled Djem So user head-to-head. But suggesting that Djem So > Makashi is dishonest and untrue, because that would mean that Count Dooku would be automatically inferior to any worthy Djem So duelist, which is not the case.

I'm not sure if this is directed to me but I will assume it is. The simple fact is Makashi doesn't have the power to match Djem So head to head. Instead of straight up blocking a Djem So user's strikes, it has to deflect it. Taekwondo functions in a similar fashion. One does not simply stopa blow but deflects it away. This makes sense as Makashi is known to parry blows rather than just block them. In the end I don't think Makashi is significatnly weak to Djem So or that Djem So even has an advantage.

It really wasn't directed at you, but at those who do or may believe that a Djem So user > Makashi user simply because one is more physically aggressive and overwhelming.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How is Mace = to Palpatine? He beat him when the emperor was using force powers and sabers. He disarmed him and beat him for the sabers portion.. yet they are equal You specified 'sabers only/no force powers' in this match -- and per the RotS novelization, Mace and Sidious were completely equal in their duel. It was only when Mace dug for a Shatterpoint that he was able to gain a smidgen of superiority.

But even if you did intend for Mace's Shatterpoint ability to be applicable in this match, there is absolutely no way to tell if it would still give him an edge as it did before.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is how is see it...

Mace = Palpatine.
"Zone" Anakin > Obi-Wan.
That leaves "Zone" Anakin and Palps to gangbang Mace.

Team 2 wins. I'll choose the experienced black guy over wrinkle-balls and whiny-ass.

Originally posted by ares834
Ugh...I see this brought up all the time. The book says Makashi didn't have the kinetic power to match Djem So head to head. But in reality Makashi doesn't have the power to match nearly any form head to head as its not intended to do that. Afterall Makashi is usually used one handed. Regardless almost no form could have matched Anakin's superstrength at that time.

Edit: I hate doing this form analysis as I believe it is irrelevant but no form, besides maybe Juyo/Vaapad, could match a talanted Djem So user head to head.

How does this invalidate what I said? You basically supported my stance. Dooku and his style IS NOT a good matchup against Anakin and his style in that state of mind. Kenobi DOESN'T have said weakness in his form, in fact, is tailor made to with stand long grueling battles and wait for an opening. Point is, just because Anakin did well against a very good swordsman with an inherit weakness to his style, doesn't mean that is applicable to someone who doesn't have said weakness

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How does this invalidate what I said? You basically supported my stance. Dooku and his style IS NOT a good matchup against Anakin and his style in that state of mind. Kenobi DOESN'T have said weakness in his form, in fact, is tailor made to with stand long grueling battles and wait for an opening. Point is, just because Anakin did well against a very good swordsman with an inherit weakness to his style, doesn't mean that is applicable to someone who doesn't have said weakness
Except I never said that. I claimed Makashi can't go head to head with almost any form and must deflect any attack. I also said almost no form can stand head to head with Djem So... SO honestly I don't see how I said anywhere that Makashi was weak to Djem So.

I certainly hope that Dooku's Makashi not possessing the kinetic power to meet Anakin's Djem So head to head in that particular instance doesn't project the false notion that any master of Djem So could've 'overpowered' Dooku/Makashi in the same manner as Anakin did. It's not like Dooku, or his form, were weak after all (he is regarded as one of the best swordsmen EVER for a reason), it's just that Anakin had so much power during their battle, that there was literally nothing Dooku could do aside from prolong his imminent death.

This excerpt from the RotS novelization paints that picture quite nicely:

"Skywalker was all over . The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker was getting stronger. Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again. He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back. He retreated up them, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious."