Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The NJO as of FOTJ is dropped off in the far reaches Egypt. Can they manage to defeat the Roman Empire? The Roman Emperor, who let's say is Nero, is somehow immediately alerted of the NJO and wants to eliminate them. The New Jedi Order has access to comlinks, datapads and other SW technology. To be fair, the Roman Empire gets an additional 1 million legionaries.

NJO Luke solos.

Lol fool Roman Empire crushes. Ewoks were able to beat the most powerful militray force in the galaxy. Imagine a true fighting force (the Romans) vs a far lesser military force (the NJO Jedi).

Originally posted by Gideon
NJO Luke solos.

While listening to Metallica on his Ipod.

Originally posted by ares834
Lol fool Roman Empire crushes. Ewoks were able to beat the most powerful militray force in the galaxy. Imagine a true fighting force (the Romans) vs a far lesser military force (the NJO Jedi).

LOL that's a little funny. You're joking right?



However, the Romans might have actually fared better than the Imperials in that situation though since the Romans would be in shielded formations that could easily deflect those rocks and such that the ewoks threw.

Um, force epic pwn ppl?

Lightsabers cutting thru anything?

Ewoks with lightsabers?

JELLY DONUTS?????

Jedi call in gun ships and then they have some tea.

Ahsoka Tano gets Legion's Love...

Wow, he's still making these threads.

the romans are done for once more

As a historical side note: the Roman Empire was destroyed from within. The constant coups and backstabbing caused the demise of the Romans.

As for military tactics I have to agree with Hewhoknowsall. The phalanx was virtually unbreakable. Shields in front and covering heads. Even Jedi would have trouble breaking the phalanx. A phalanx consited of give or take 1,000 men roughly a regiment in todays standards. The NJO lacks the manpower to break a well-disciplined fighting force. Without support troops, I have to give it to the Romans.

One force push would rip apart a phalanx, not to mention a group of powerful warriors wielding swords that could cut through roman shields, armour, and weapons like butter.

No that is the tortello, the phalanx is a wall of shields with a guys shield overlapping the edge of the one on his right with spears facing outwards, but its very vulnerable from the back.

The tortello is what you said, it was created to deflect missile fire, but in a straight close range fight, your screwed because you cant hold it while fighting.

oh and btw,LIGHTSABERS

Good argument ares, but are we fighting an Roman Legion (army = 25,000 men) or just one or two phalanx's? But then, Roman archers would also be raining arrows on NJO. Hewhoknowsall needs to give us more information.

The force can pick up ships, i think it can stop arrows, and what about that cloaking ability thingy of Lukes? They could appear in the middleof the tortello when no one could see them and cut them down

The Jedi Masters could mind trick everyone into thinking theyre not there while they cut them down. lol

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
As a historical side note: the Roman Empire was destroyed from within. The constant coups and backstabbing caused the demise of the Romans.

As for military tactics I have to agree with Hewhoknowsall. The phalanx was virtually unbreakable. Shields in front and covering heads. Even Jedi would have trouble breaking the phalanx. A phalanx consited of give or take 1,000 men roughly a regiment in todays standards. The NJO lacks the manpower to break a well-disciplined fighting force. Without support troops, I have to give it to the Romans.

I was stating that a Roman army might have fared better in place of the stormtroopers
against the ewoks. However, I don't see how traditional Roman formations would stand any chance against guys that can Force push them apart and slice their weapons and such to bits and people that can sense where they are going and communicate across vast distances via both the Force and space age technology. Oh, and the Roman army would have little chance of tracking down or doing any harm to Jedi; if Jedi can block blaster bolts they can easily block any weapon the Roman Empire had. Also, the Jedi could gain numerous supporters that would greet them as liberaters and aid the Jedi.


Sorry, maybe Luke or another powerful Jedi vs the Roman Empire would be more balanced.

Romans didn't fight in phalanx's, as far as I know. The Greeks fought in phalanx's. The reason the Greeks lost to the Roman's was the because the Roman's were the first military to figure out how to break a phalanx. (allow it into your ranks and attack from all sides)

Um, hi? As soon as the Romans see swords of light that can't be stopped and seeing their soldiers being tossed about by unseen forces, they won't fight the Jedi--they'll bow down and call them gods.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Um, hi? As soon as the Romans see swords of light that can't be stopped and seeing their soldiers being tossed about by unseen forces, they won't fight the Jedi--they'll bow down and call them gods.

And 2000 years later you'll have hippies wearing "Goerge Lucas is my Homeboy" shirts.

$10 says those shirts existed back then too.

The phalanx has never been broken until I want to say . . . 1902 or 1905. In the Napoleonic Wars, it was known as the square. It was made obsolete when the introduction of the Maxim machine gun on the battlefield. A solid defense on 4 sides.

truejedi, a Jedi can deflect blasters, but can a Jedi/Jedi's stop over 1,000 arrows falling? An upper-tier like Luke probably emerge unscathed on the battled, but an average Jedi can't. Maybe, the Jedi would be victorious, but it would be a pyhric victory.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
truejedi, a Jedi can deflect blasters, but can a Jedi/Jedi's stop over 1,000 arrows falling? An upper-tier like Luke probably emerge unscathed on the battled, but an average Jedi can't. Maybe, the Jedi would be victorious, but it would be a pyhric victory.

Just send in the Masters, they should all have good enough TK to stop large amounts of arrows. Except Corran unfortunatly, but he could probably mind trick them to thinking he wasnt even there.

Against over 1,000 arrows falling? A volley is fired every 5 seconds, so it would be hard pressed for the Masters to stop every arrow from finding a target. While the archers are pinning the Masters down, the phalanx attacks and kills most of the Knights. Masters would probably survive, but like I said . . . it would be pyhric victory.

Sure thats a lot of arrows, but they only need to stop the few that are actually going to be a danger to them. You dont think a concentrated force push would render the arrows ineffective? Some Jedi can stop freakin blaster bolts with thier hands, which I assume travel much faster and can do more damage than an arrow. How many people are in a Phalanx that you actually believe are going to be able to take on 50 or so Jedi Knights who have a speed, strength, weapon, and usage of the force advantage?

Is this scenario in a open field? If not then the obvious counter to arrows, which Jedi will easily figure out, is to either get under something solid, or just break line of sight. I bed the Jedi's endurance can far outlast the romans.

TK tooling

Face it dude, the Romans would lose due to the fact that they are fighting people with unstoppable weapons and a supernatural force assisting them

Luke could shield them since i think it said this was the order in FOTJ........

Dont forget Uber-Jaden Korr who killed an ancient sith lord as a jedi knight and who had no powers whatsoever \./
Then theres Kyle who can use lightning with no problem...
And Luke.......
The Romans would think that Luke is Jupiter himself as soon as he shoots a bit of lightning

Luke Skywalker and Ganner Rhysode both took out thousands of Yuuzan Vong by themselves. I believe that YV warriors are much more formidable opponents than romans.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Against over 1,000 arrows falling? A volley is fired every 5 seconds, so it would be hard pressed for the Masters to stop every arrow from finding a target. While the archers are pinning the Masters down, the phalanx attacks and kills most of the Knights. Masters would probably survive, but like I said . . . it would be pyhric victory. You do know that the seasoned Knights and Masters of Luke's Order can A.) dodge things faster than arrows, B.) block things faster than arrows, and c.) repulse things faster/heavier than arrows. These aren't well-trained warriors, they're well-trained warriors with control over a magical energy field that the Romans don't know about or understand. One display of god-like powers and swing of a cosmic killing light-sword and the pagan primitives who don't understand what a photon is will bow down in fear. Those who don't will run faster than they ever have before.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You do know that the seasoned Knights and Masters of Luke's Order can A.) dodge things faster than arrows, B.) block things faster than arrows, and c.) repulse things faster/heavier than arrows. These aren't well-trained warriors, they're well-trained warriors with control over a magical energy field that the Romans don't know about or understand. One display of god-like powers and swing of a cosmic killing light-sword and the pagan primitives who don't understand what a photon is will bow down in fear. Those who don't will run faster than they ever have before.

But... but! Arrows! Phalanx! Romans! ahhh!

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
But... but! Arrows! Phalanx! Romans! ahhh! I call your phalanx and raise you one Jedi testudo.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I call your phalanx and raise you one Jedi testudo.

You are some kind of sorceror. Touche.

romans broke the greek phalanx.

At Cynocephalae(sp?), if Cronkite's to be believed.

Sorry, I sort of made a spite thread. Luke or another powerful Jedi could probably solo. Maybe vs the United States would be more even, although in a war the Jedi would win quite easily; around 200 organized, well trained Jedi agents that are superior to even guys like Jason Bourne (who pretty much defeated the CIA) could easily cripple any modern government and would be virtually impossible to track down.

DT: the Jedi have a technology advantage, and they have the Force. Oh, and they're smarter and better trained as well.

No way, you never make spite threads, don't even think like that.

Still better than this thread or this one...

I didn't know Rogue Jedi was so gay.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The NJO as of FOTJ is dropped off in the far reaches Egypt. Can they manage to defeat the Roman Empire? The Roman Emperor, who let's say is Nero, is somehow immediately alerted of the NJO and wants to eliminate them. The New Jedi Order has access to comlinks, datapads and other SW technology. To be fair, the Roman Empire gets an additional 1 million legionaries. 1. Which side is the far reaches of egypt? Furthest from the romans? you mean the Sahara? Good luck to them getting to the roman empire from there.

2. You haven't been fair at all here. Nero is not a strategist, in fact, nero is more towards the fall of the roman empire and is one of the more corrupt ass-wipes to ever be emperor. Probably even a bit insane. Give them Julius Caesar at his height of power.

3. 1 million legions? Do you realize how many this is? This is a billion troops. NJO are probably a dozen Jedi.

So here's how I see this going down.

1. Jedi die in the desert, hundreds of miles from any sort of water or civilization.

2. If they do get to the nile or something without dying by some miracle they have a few options.

These are the options.

a. Is rome allowed to prepare for them to arrive? is this an all out clash? If so, all 1 billion legionaires are waiting for them and they drown on corpses or get tired and die of spear wounds.

b. If rome has no idea they are there, they could covertly destroy nero and take the kingdom from the inside out. but then, how would 1 billion troops make this fair?

So, only one semi-contingency based on a lack of information in the scenario has them winning. they lose.

Luke goes invisible and conquers Rome all by himself.

Much as I love to see Powers Hewhoknowsnothing in agony--and I do... the thought of misconstrued facts is just gross.

Originally posted by One Free Man
1. Which side is the far reaches of egypt? Furthest from the romans? you mean the Sahara? Good luck to them getting to the roman empire from there.The Roman Empire encompassed the entire Mediterranean coastline, and dipped deep in to the Nile Valley.

Originally posted by One Free Man
2. You haven't been fair at all here. Nero is not a strategist, in fact, nero is more towards the fall of the roman empire and is one of the more corrupt ass-wipes to ever be emperor. Probably even a bit insane. Give them Julius Caesar at his height of power.Nero died in 68 AD. Romulus Augustus and his empire was ousted over 400 years later.

Originally posted by One Free Man
3. 1 million legions? Do you realize how many this is? This is a billion troops. NJO are probably a dozen Jedi. 5.2 billion troops, but the point is... he said legionaries, not legions. But being as how the early imperial legions never numbered more than 30, 1 million men is a lot by comparison.

,

Originally posted by One Free Man
1. Which side is the far reaches of egypt? Furthest from the romans? you mean the Sahara? Good luck to them getting to the roman empire from there.

2. You haven't been fair at all here. Nero is not a strategist, in fact, nero is more towards the fall of the roman empire and is one of the more corrupt ass-wipes to ever be emperor. Probably even a bit insane. Give them Julius Caesar at his height of power.

3. 1 million legions? Do you realize how many this is? This is a billion troops. NJO are probably a dozen Jedi.

So here's how I see this going down.

1. Jedi die in the desert, hundreds of miles from any sort of water or civilization.

2. If they do get to the nile or something without dying by some miracle they have a few options.

These are the options.

a. Is rome allowed to prepare for them to arrive? is this an all out clash? If so, all 1 billion legionaires are waiting for them and they drown on corpses or get tired and die of spear wounds.

b. If rome has no idea they are there, they could covertly destroy nero and take the kingdom from the inside out. but then, how would 1 billion troops make this fair?

So, only one semi-contingency based on a lack of information in the scenario has them winning. they lose.

1. I don't see how that would be that difficult. There were civilized cities in Egypt at that time you know.

2. True, I'll admit that Nero wasn't exactly a genius by any means.

3. First of all, I said an extra million legionaries, not a million extra legions (the Roman Empire wouldn't even have enough food and water to feed the latter). Second of all, the NJO has hundreds of Jedi.





1. "hundreds of miles from any sort of water or civilization"? What? Egypt was a very wealthy and inhabited area.

2. Yeah.

a. As I said, it's a million legionaries, not legions. The latter would die of lack of enough food and water, and a million legionaries are not going to be clumped together in one place. Heck, they won't even be able to track the Jedi or know where they are going.

b. Actually, even if Nero somehow magically knows where they are, his troops will get defeated by the Jedi pretty easily. Also, the Jedi could incite revolts and get a lot of the civilian population, especially the Roman slaves, on their side.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke goes invisible and conquers Rome all by himself.
QFT

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. I don't see how that would be that difficult. There were civilized cities in Egypt at that time you know.
Which, as you will see, are all gathered around the center, that is to say, the nile, the only source of water for a thousand miles in that desert. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e114/knightfalll/egypt1.gif
As you can see, the far side is the middle of the sahara. Thanks for playing.
indeed.
forgive my mistake. Either way, it's still like giving the roman empire a million battle-hardened war heroes. You weren't promoted to legionaire in those days by being a pussy. Think rambo in a helmet.
see rerebutal 1. The far side of ancient egypt is no where near the nile. The nile is the only source of water and the only place that cities are gathered.
Alright, so "hundreds" of jedi somehow get into roman territory. Warrior monks armed with swords. How fast is the alarm raised? Pretty damn. you see, a couple hundred jedi is no-where near small enough to be a covert black operation. It's also nowhere near enough to defeat the roman empire+1,000,000 men.

Also, now that you see the jedi have no chance of winning, you're going to make up bullshit theories about the jedis doing some black ops shit involving the millenium falcon, the hoverboards from back to the future 2, and a tag team featuring donald duck, dirty harry, fotj luke, the I am legend guy, and obama who parachute in using the hoverboards and assassinate nero. Everytime someone comes up with something contrary to your magic plan you're going to change it. I might as well give up now.
Not really. Have you ever seen a large crowd of people? http://farm1.static.flickr.com/69/171906822_0b8bdee4bf.jpg that's a hundred thousand people. Now imagine if it where ten times that many and they were all seasoned warriors.

also, there were 200 thousand soldiers in the roman army at it's prime. all that land was owned by 200 thousand soldiers. that means, in all the movies you've ever seen with all those massive armies, you've never seen a group exceeding 200 thousand soldiers.

even split 200 ways like you say there are jedi in the njo, each one has to kill 50 thousand troops AT LEAST. how many times can you swing a saber?

But thanks for playing.

1. First of all, I'd assume that the Jedi would have water and food with them, but even if they don't they could travel 1000 miles in the desert to, say, the Nile; remember that they can use the Force to counteract the heat, and there have been numerous cases of skilled Force users using the Force to survive without food or water for quite a while.

2. Yeah, Nero wasn't known to be a military genius.

3. Jedi are far tougher than legionaries though. Most of them are trained from a very young age and they have the Force, effectively making them super humans.

4. But Jedi can move very fast, and they can use the Force to counteract the heat and sustain themselves for quite a while.

5. What? "warrior monks armed with swords"? More like "battle hardened and intelligent warrior monks armed with lightsabers and possessing supernatural powers".

Besides, the Romans won't be able to clump their entire army into one place and then march towards the Jedi; that would be a logistical nightmare. Nero would likely send waves at the Jedi (if Nero can even locate the Jedi), who would simply stand their and mass Force push the Roman ranks into oblivion. Any Roman that gets close gets killed by the Jedi using their lightsabers.

If the Jedi can block blaster bolts from multiple directions, then they can easily block sword strikes and arrows.

Oh, and the Jedi CAN act as covert black ops; who's to say that they have to stay in one place at once when they have comlinks? They can split up and covertly collapse the Roman Empire; the Romans will have no effective way to protect any major military or political figure from capture or assassination from the Jedi.

Oh, and the Jedi can also mind trick a large part of the army to their side; although not all would be affected, a large amount probably would.

For the love of Christ stop coming up with hypothetical situations, thats not how this works.

Originally posted by mattatom
For the love of Christ stop coming up with hypothetical situations, thats not how this works.

What do you mean?

Romans charge at and try to attack Jedi, Jedi Force push Romans.

What's wrong with that?

Originally posted by One Free Man
Also, now that you see the jedi have no chance of winning, you're going to make up bullshit theories about the jedis doing some black ops shit involving the millenium falcon, the hoverboards from back to the future 2, and a tag team featuring donald duck, dirty harry, fotj luke, the I am legend guy, and obama who parachute in using the hoverboards and assassinate nero. Everytime someone comes up with something contrary to your magic plan you're going to change it. I might as well give up now.


But thanks for playing.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. First of all, I'd assume that the Jedi would have water and food with them, but even if they don't they could travel 1000 miles in the desert to, say, the Nile; remember that they can use the Force to counteract the heat, and there have been numerous cases of skilled Force users using the Force to survive without food or water for quite a while.
You don't know how far a thousand miles is. that's like 24 hours by car. Walking is a different matter altogether. it would take months at a normal pace and even at super-human speed (which even jedi wouldn't be able to keep up for long) they'd take forever.

Also, I understand jedi don't exactly need ALOT of food and water, but weeks/months of walking without a drop is a little much.

And yes, there have been cases of skilled force users using the force to survive without sustenance. that's the word here. So after the unskilled die of starvation/thirst you'll have about 12-20 left?

Also, you're giving them food and water which was not in the op so goodbye.


we've established this.
NJO JEDI ARE NOT TRAINED FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE. you fail. good day sir.

ah but for how long? we've seen top tier force users show age and even fatigue from fighting/running, etc. in the movies.
Semantics. the jedi are warrior monks armed with light-swords. big deal that you described it in jizz-o-matic fanboy language.

Are you sure that there weren't ANY towns or anything in that part of the Roman Empire? Because it wouldn't make sense that the Romans would even claim that land if it had no value. Oh, and food and water is part of "SW technology"; in fact, SW has stasis chambers and such to preserve food. From what I remember in Social Studies/History, there were several trade routes along that path as well, so it isn't in the middle of nowhere.

You said "Warrior monks armed with swords". There is a HUGE difference between a sword and a lightsaber, and a HUGE difference between regular "warrior monks" and well trained warrior monks with supernatural powers. You were trying to make the Jedi seem less powerful than they really are. Simply put, the Jedi are FAR superior to the Romans in combat effectiveness. The Romans are used to moving in relatively tight formations, which would fall to Force pushes quite easily. They are also used to blocking a guy's attack with their shield and then stabbing with the gladius, and using this method as well as superior tactics they were able to defeat the "barbarian" nations. Against the Jedi however, this would fail as the Roman shields will not be able to block a lightsaber or the Force. Nero is no military genius and wouldn't be able to come up with a plan to fight the Jedi.

Oh, and I notice that you didn't actually provide a reason as to how my plan doesn't work. My plan DOES work; the Jedi could easily topple the Roman Empire. PROVE ME WRONG IF YOU CAN.

Oh, and what was it with your earlier post about the Jedi having to kill at least 50,000 Roman troops? There're about, say, 200 Jedi in the NJO vs, with the extra million troops the Romans get for this thread, 1.2 million or so Romans. 1.2 million/200 = 6000, and that isn't factoring those that can be mind tricked and those that will run away or bow down and worship the Jedi once they see the Jedi and their powers, which is the majority. Oh, and the Jedi won't have to fight all of them at once. They can use a sniper rifle (which is "other SW technology" and has been used by Jedi before) to kill the leaders of the opposing armies.

Oh, and if I have to, I can point out that "other SW technology" (aka technology that the Jedi regularly use) would include Stealth X's.

When the Jedi arrive and show their powers, the civilian populace and much of the military will bow down and call them gods.



I'm trying as hard as possible to be civil with you One Free Man, despite the hostile attitude that you've shown be before, but you really can't debate that well. You don't actually respond to my arguments that well in many cases. Obviously you don't know anything about how difficult it would be in ancient and even modern times to effectively put together and feed one million troops and then march them however many miles, track down the Jedi and then prevent them from bowing down to the Jedi upon seeing their powers. Nor do you realize how important technology is in a war, or how impossible it would be for the Romans to do any harm to the Jedi.

Originally posted by One Free Man

NJO JEDI ARE NOT TRAINED FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE. you fail. good day sir.

People like Jaina, Jacen, Anakin, Ben, Tesar, Tekli, Ganner, Valin, Jesylla and the many other Jedi Knights who were trained from a young age weren't in fact trained at a young age, and the books are just lying to us?

Oh yea, capslock=win, i forgot.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
People like Jaina, Jacen, Anakin, Ben, Tesar, Tekli, Ganner, Valin, Jesylla and the many other Jedi Knights who were trained from a young age weren't in fact trained at a young age, and the books are just lying to us?

Oh yea, capslock=win, i forgot.

Yeah, although not all NJO Jedi were trained at a young age, a lot of them were.





Here's the Jedi plan (if any of you think that this plan is wrong, ACTUALLY TELL ME HOW IT'S WRONG; it's okay to think up of hypothetical plans if they actually work, which in this case it does):

The Jedi cross the desert, going along trade routes that have quite a bit of people in them. If necessary, they can buy food and water in exchange for a lot of stuff that the Jedi can provide, such as datapads and medicine.

The Jedi arrive in a major city such as Cairo.

Nero sends an army to kill the Jedi.

The Jedi show off their powers and the army runs away or bows down and worships the Jedi. If that doesn't work, then they simply mass Force push the Roman ranks.

They begin to stir up the populace and get many of the Roman slaves and oppressed civilians on their side. Any Roman soldiers that try and stop this get cut down.

The Jedi and their allies launch a surprise invasion on Rome, taking control of the city and declaring themselves the rulers of Rome. Any army that gets in their way can be mind tricked, convinced into defecting, scared away or mass Force pushed and lightsaber chopped to death.

They promise the Senate that they will return their powers to them; the Senate will like this, and join the NJO's side.

Any Roman army that actually wants to still fight for Nero (who's dead, captured or on the run) won't stand a chance against the Jedi, who could mass Force push and lightsaber attack any Roman formation to death.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Here's the Jedi plan (if any of you think that this plan is wrong, ACTUALLY TELL ME HOW IT'S WRONG;

I'm going to stop debating with you and instead tell you why this is wrong. Since you requested it so humbly.

Alright, here's what's wrong with making a hypothetical plan for your preferred side instead of using facts and logic.

1. You're writing fan fiction. Anything can happen in fan fiction. I can make a hypothetical fictional account of something and say that's what they do all I want. For instance:

Jar Jar vs Emperor Palpatine:

ok so heres what jar jar can do, ok? jar jar, he gets a super blaster minigun like the one canderous had in KOTOR and then he sneaks in. He finds a ventilation shaft like the boondock saints and crawls through it very sneakily. The emperor is taking a nap in his bed. He doesn't here jar jar coming. Jar jar opens the vent above the emperor very very slowly so that the emperor can't hear him coming and then aims very very carefully and shoots the emperor in the head. The emperor is dead. Jar Jar is victorious.

HURRAAHhhh I just proved that jar-jar>>>>The EMPEROR!!!!

now. I can modify this scenario every time you give me a rebuttal, such as claiming that food is now technology because jedi-fridges are technology.

2. There's too many contingencies. as with my example there, how did jar jar get past the storm troopers? or the 24 hour imperial crimson troopers? How do we know there are even ventilation shafts in the emperor's quarters? Can Jar Jar operate that sort of blaster? Does Jar Jar have the capacity to be silent for over 23.4 seconds?

3. You aren't jar jar. You aren't NJO luke. You are you and you're hypothetical plan isn't what they are going to do, probably. You have no idea what they are ACTUALLY going to do, plan-wise. That's why we go with straight on fights, using facts, logic, and feats to prove that one side is more powerful than the other, rather than writing a detailed account of how the battle goes over in our minds. Yeah we might say "Palpatine rapes jar-jar" but when it gets down to brass tacks, we're going to detail what makes palpatine better, not what palpatine actually does in order to defeat Jar Jar.

4. "Damned are those that change facts to suit theories rather than theories to suit facts."--Sherlock Holmes

Your little scenario is never constant. jar jar only gets one shot at this. he either follows one of your plans or the other. The instant someone points out that there are security cameras with machine turrets on a 24/7 guards in all ventilation shafts as according to "star wars: lame dramatic EU name, issue 25" so jar jar absolutely cannot get in without eating lead, now jar jar grabs a blaster shield like the ones from episode 1 and uses that to get past, as if he knew there were going to be those turrets. Anyone you route for is injustly invincible using this method of debate.

Jar Jar doesn't know what's ahead of him. how can he? yet you change your little scenario every time he meets some adversity until people stop posting then you claim your pseudo-victory (pseudo=fake, for those of you taking notes)

Here's an example of this faulty reasoning, one that you and I had an exchange over:

I pointed out that the far side of egypt is the middle of the sahara.

You said that the jedi probably have food.

I said that that wasn't in the OP.

You said that since it is within star war's technological capabilities to have an advanced refrigerator, therefor food is now technology and they have access to star wars technology.

I called you an idiot.

I was right; therefor I won.

Thank you for playing.

Originally posted by One Free Man
1. You're writing fan fiction. Anything can happen in fan fiction. I can make a hypothetical fictional account of something and say that's what they do all I want.

Aren't all these vs fights hypothetical?

Aren't we supposed to debate describing how we think a certain side will win? Instead of just saying "this person wins" and offering no explanation?

Originally posted by One Free Man
Your little scenario is never constant. jar jar only gets one shot at this. he either follows one of your plans or the other.

Are you implying that if two opponents face eachother, that no matter what, everytime they fight it will go the exact same way? Not just the end result but every action?

VP
Aren't all these vs fights hypothetical?

Aren't we supposed to debate describing how we think a certain side will win? Instead of just saying "this person wins" and offering no explanation?

Yup.

But that's not what HWKN is doing (or so I assume). What he does, what he has always done, is create a thread and then pick a side, proclaiming that side to be the victor, based off a series of finely manufactured what if scenarios.

That isn't what we do here. What we do here is based on what is likely and what is canonical.

HWKN constructs arguments that presuppose a long series of unlikely or questionable circumstances and he typically doesn't stick to single standards.

They get crushed under the Roman boot, or more likely, assimilate and attempt a secret coup that ends up controlling the Roman empire with several force powerful dynasties.

Rome Eterna.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Aren't all these vs fights hypothetical?

Yes.
Not necessarily how, but why. Why does this person win? We can't tell how darth maul and darth revan would exchange if they ever were to face off. We can only determine which one has the greater power/skill via previous feats to determine the winner.

Hewhoknowsthemeaningoffailure picked the side he wanted to win when he made the thread, for the sole perpose of arguing that side until everyone has grown tired of fighting his invincible pseudo-debate. (pseudo means fake here as well)

@One Free Man:

The problem with your argument is that it rests on a flawed analogy. In order for a plan to work the person or people must be capable of thinking up of a good plan and then successfully carry it out. Jar Jar Binks is neither smart enough to think up of that plan nor capable of carrying it out. Also, you made your plan intentionally absurd, whereas my plan is NOT absurd.

My plan is LIKELY to succeed and the NJO is smart enough to think up of it. If you disagree, please PROVE ME WRONG (if you can).

Can someone tell me how my "hypothetical plans" are any different from a more complex (but still reasonable) version of a statement like "well Exar Kun could kill Dooku using his amulets" or "Yoda could Force TK Grevious"?

@Gideon:

You consistently insult me without actually knowing what I'm saying. You consider yourself to be a good debater, which you often are, but your manners, morals and often times common sense can often times be questionable.

I see. Don't you think some of the scenarios he has presented are actually likley though? Sometimes unlikely things do happen. An underdog who gets a crazy win somehow. Especially in these fantasy settings unlikely things happen quite often don't they? Like how the Kracken dies in Clash of the Titans, it was pretty unlikely that they would have the one possible way to destroy him.

Perhaps i'm just not thinking about this the correct way. I do see this happening in the 'comic vs' forums though, where they give a x/10, because sometimes unlikely things happen. That seems like the more logical way to think about things to me. Theres just so many variables.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I see. Don't you think some of the scenarios he has presented are actually likley though? Sometimes unlikely things do happen. An underdog who gets a crazy win somehow. Especially in these fantasy settings unlikely things happen quite often don't they? Like how the Kracken dies in Clash of the Titans, it was pretty unlikely that they would have the one possible way to destroy him.

Perhaps i'm just not thinking about this the correct way. I do see this happening in the 'comic vs' forums though, where they give a x/10, because sometimes unlikely things happen. That seems like the more logical way to think about things to me. Theres just so many variables.

Except that in this scenario the Romans are the underdogs; they're facing a space age group with space age weapons, a high level of intelligence and supernatural powers in the form of the Force.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@One Free Man:

The problem with your argument is that it rests on a flawed analogy. In order for a plan to work the person or people must be capable of thinking up of a good plan and then successfully carry it out. Jar Jar Binks is neither smart enough to think up of that plan nor capable of carrying it out. Also, you made your plan intentionally absurd, whereas my plan is NOT absurd.
You can't prove me wrong. And Jar Jar has proved himself ingenious multiple times. He took out an entire tank with his bare hands. He's a general in the gungun army. He's also a senator. this is also 30 years in the future when palpatine is emperor. You honestly think he is an incompetent with feats like these? He's brilliant. Even if he isn't, he takes the death star schematics from leia and then goes off to kill the emperor, knowing where everything is.

Also, it's not as absurd as jedi knowing where trade routes are, or knowing what direction to go in while in the middle of the desert, much less trade routes existing in the middle of the sahara.

I'm sorry, I can't. I've explained why. You'll just modify your scenario every time I present adversity to your protagonist.

Also, you have no idea what the NJO's plan is. Your plan is one contingency. The NJO also don't have ships, or GPS's and they have no idea where they are, how to speak the language, or anything about the culture they are in. your hypothetical plans depend on all of this.
Fine. I will. You are drawing out a complicated guess as to what your favorite characters would do in a situation.

Pointing out that Exar Kun has amulets which he could use to blast Dooku is simple, to the point, irrefutable, and based on solid fact. Exar Kun does have amulets. He could use them to blast dooku. This is not a long explanation dependant upon unknown variables. It's an ability, skill, or knowledge that exar kun has at his disposal, not a scenario he could carry out.

Yoda has very powerful force TK. He could use it to force grevious. This is a skill, ability, feat, or knowledge that yoda has. It's not a drawn out account of some battle plan.
Idiot. gideon knows, almost intuitively, exactly what your saying. Let's review his post.

leaving room for error, maybe you aren't doing it this time, but he hits the nail on the head in a moment.
Did you do that? Why, yes you did!!!!
Is this what we do here? why yes it is!!!!
Is this what you do? why yes it is!!!!!

I'd give gideon's post a:

10 out of 10 for accuracy.

7 out of 10 for confidence. I mean, he left room for error when people like you don't change your style. You've been doing this since day one, why would you change your tactic for this thread?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Except that in this scenario the Romans are the underdogs. Your opinion. I've never heard of any jedi killing 7500 beings, much less battle-hardened warriors, except in one case, and that was nihilus.

I have however heard of battle-hardened warriors wiping out 6 jedi with melee

Edit:

With 75 hundred battle hardened warriors for every jedi, (and armed ones, for that matter) how long would this fight last? Very very very very short.

Your plan involving Jar Jar does not explain how Jar Jar makes it through the security cameras and guards. Why would Sidious have a ventilation shaft leading to his room and how would Jar Jar know about it? How would he even enter the vicinity of Sidious's resting area without guards catching him? Also, don't miniguns have to charge up (in which case they make noise, which would wake up Sidious) first to fire?

The NJO would be able to sense lifeforms through the Force. Therefore, they'd be able to figure out where the large concentrations of people are.

I can point out how your plan with Jar Jar Binks goes wrong. You can't do the same for my plan.



Oh, and I don't really need to use that plan that I made to show that the Jedi win. The Romans attack Jedi, Jedi mass Force TK (which is a skill/ability that the Jedi have) Romans and/or chop them up with their lightsabers (a skill/ability that the Jedi have, and lightsabers can go through iron and human skin quite easily). They could also mind trick them either to join their side (since some or maybe many of the Romans might be weak minded and the Jedi have shown to be able to perform a mind trick) or to create illusions (which high level Jedi such as Luke and Corran have shown to do). And if the Jedi are somehow forced to retreat, they can easily outrun the Romans.

There, see? I used basic feats that the Jedi have canonically performed to show that the Romans would stand no chance against the Jedi, just like how I could use basic feats that Yoda has canonically performed to show that he can beat Grevious. Yoda could Force TK Grevious, and Yoda would be too fast and agile (which feats and quotes back up) for Grevious to keep up in a lightsaber fight.

Oh, and where did you get your 50,000 Romans per Jedi idea? 1.2 million/200 = 6000, not 50,000. And the all Romans won't be fighting the Jedi at once.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Except that in this scenario the Romans are the underdogs; they're facing a space age group with space age weapons, a high level of intelligence and supernatural powers in the form of the Force.

I think that fighting in the Roman empire(homefeild advantage) and facing overwhelming numbers are supposed to even things up. Obviously the person argueing with you disagrees and believes that the NJO are the underdogs since they think the Romans will win.

Another thing is that the Jar Jar Binks plan assumes that there is a ventilation shaft conveniently placed and unguarded. I do not assume that there were trade routes at that time; I know (well, based on our knowledge of history) that there were based on historical evidence.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
And the all Romans won't be fighting the Jedi at once.

Good point. Wouldn't a gurilla warfare campaign be a good and viable tactic for the NJO? They would also be able to communicate(to a extent) at distances, which would be very beneficial. If the OP stated they fight in some field/arena setting that lasted until everyone was dead/defeated i'm sorry I can't remember.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Your plan involving Jar Jar does not explain how Jar Jar makes it through the security cameras and guards. but this is the beauty of this tactic, you've pointed out an adversity to the object of my fanboyism!! Jar Jar spends the 20 years between ROTS an ANH training under quinlan vos for preparation! Now that he has jedi abilities, he can stealth past them easily. he had a wide trench leading up to a 2 meter wide thermal exhaust port without a grate which would destroy his entire space station of death. You think the guy's smart about tactical weak-points in his space ship? also, he'd have to have environmental controls, and have his oxygen scrubbed, which would lead to a safe environment for himself. in the ventilation shaft, using jedi-stealth. earth miniguns, which use bullets. And I just said "canderous's minigun thing" which isn't really a mini-gun, just a powerful machine gun.

So once they get there, they don't know the language, they don't know the people, what makes them attack the romans? I mean they don't know that the romans are the bad guys here. They have no intell.

no I proved it. you can't disprove my argument.


The jedis have TK, not mass force tk. Show me the wiki to this ability, please. you do realize that the point of sword-fighting is not necessarily to block the other sword? 6000-1 is pretty long odds for the jedi having the ability to block all the attacks that come at them. a legionaire is probably going to be a powerful-minded tactician with exceptional combat ability. They aren't weak minded. Also, most roman soldiers were highly educated. yay, use mind tricks on the weak minded military tacticians.
more like basic bullshit.
I'm sorry, you're right, my calculator added a zero.

Where did you get the number that there are 200 NJO jedi?

I personally can't see the Jedi winning against that kind of odds, but I also can't envision ANY situation where they die.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Another thing is that the Jar Jar Binks plan assumes that there is a ventilation shaft conveniently placed and unguarded. I do not assume that there were trade routes at that time; I know (well, based on our knowledge of history) that there were based on historical evidence. THERE ARE NO TRADE ROUTES THROUGH THE GOD DAMN SAHARA. THEY USED THE NILE. EVERYTHING TO BE TRADED WAS ON THE NILE. EVERYONE TO BE TRADED TO WAS ON THE NILE. YOU KNOW NOTHING.

Originally posted by truejedi
I personally can't see the Jedi winning against that kind of odds, but I also can't envision ANY situation where they die. Fatigue forces them to fall asleep; they drown on bodies, etc.

*shrug* perhaps.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Good point. Wouldn't a gurilla warfare campaign be a good and viable tactic for the NJO? They would also be able to communicate(to a extent) at distances, which would be very beneficial. If the OP stated they fight in some field/arena setting that lasted until everyone was dead/defeated i'm sorry I can't remember. No, but it does state that the NJO start in the middle of the sahara with no food or water. And it was specifically geared to make the jedi win using one of HWKN's scenarios.

yeah, no way the jedi get through the desert with no supplies.

For your Jar Jar Binks idea, you haven't proven that Jar Jar Binks is Force sensitive, so how is he supposed to have Force powers?

Mass Force push as in the Jedi all doing a Force push, hence "mass" Force push, like a mass gathering.

Stormtroopers were apparently well trained and got mind tricked in ANH. Oh, and Luke's Force illusions worked on Caedus. Therefore, Luke could trick Roman scouts into seeing Jedi in places that they aren't, luring away Roman armies guarding, say, Rome.

Jedi have been shown to block blaster bolts from multiple directions. Blocking sword stikes would be relatively easy, and a Jedi's lightsaber could easily cut through a gladius.

The Romans simply can't stop the Force. How are they going to get past a Jedi formation using Force push?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
For your Jar Jar Binks idea, you haven't proven that Jar Jar Binks is Force sensitive, so how is he supposed to have Force powers? Prove he's not. He's shown amaizing ability and procognition. You haven't proven that the jedi actually can survive for 500 miles of the hottest, dryest country in the world.
Oh, ok I thought you meant a really large push, like a large one, not a bunch of small ones.
hypothetical. another scenario that's not even close to believeable.
yes, but no jedi can block simultaneous sword strikes from every angle.
Says you. Bows, lances, throwing spears. ETC. Surround the jedi. Also, force push=/= lethal and there being 1.4 milliion romans, they could just surround them and wait. the Jedi will fall asleep or die of hunger some time.

Also, look at fett. Killed 6 jedi with his bare hands. Now you'd think jedi could defeat a bare-handed elite warrior by blocking his strikes.

what makes the extremely fit, experienced, and elite romans any different?

Originally posted by One Free Man
Also, look at fett. Killed 6 jedi with his bare hands. Now you'd think jedi could defeat a bare-handed elite warrior by blocking his strikes.

what makes the extremely fit, experienced, and elite romans any different?

Isn't this a perfect example of one of the very unlikely things that you are discrediting happening?

I have provided evidence that Jedi can survive in the Sahara long enough to find other people. You haven't given evidence that Jar Jar Binks is Force sensitive; having good abilities (but I don't know where you got Jar Jar Binks having pre cog from) is present in SW (and real life as well, of course) people that aren't Force sensitive.

And how is that scenario "not even close to believable"? What flaws are there in it?

And the Romans generally fought in close formations where the other guys would attack the Romans. The Romans would block with their shield and then impale the guy attacking him. This technique wouldn't work against the Jedi.

Oh, and bows and other ranged weapons that the Roman had could be Force pushed back or, since Jedi can deflect blaster bolts (which move far faster and are more powerful than, say, Roman javelins), blocked. Heck, the Jedi can even dodge them. Surrounding the Jedi wouldn't work since the Jedi could Force push a part of the Roman formation, knocking the Romans down and scattering their formation long enough for the Jedi, who are very fast, to escape.

Luke alone killed thousand of YV warriors (if you counter this by saying that he used a Battle Meld, then I can counter by saying that he can use a Battle Meld again in this scenario; what stops him from doing that?) in TUF. A YV warrior is more powerful than a Roman legionary by A LOT. The Romans wouldn't send ALL of their forces at the Jedi at once as there would be several problems with doing that. What stops Luke from cloaking himself and soloing any Roman army that tries to attack the Jedi?

Romans attack, Jedi mass Force push the Romans. Eventually the Romans would give up and leave with concussions. Another Roman army comes, and the Jedi mass Force push again.

Or they could snipe the leaders of Roman armies that try and attack them, although that might not be very Jedi like.

Besides, the Romans would probably bow down to the Jedi and worship them as gods upon seeing their powers.

It occurs to me that this thread is against the rules.

Perhaps my key to finding out the winner of Shaq vs. the Bear would have been to make it a legion of shaq's vs. a legion of bears.

Kinda like Earth Vs. Star Wars is against the rules, and IT was never closed.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I have provided evidence that Jedi can survive in the Sahara long enough to find other people. no you haven't. Prove he's not. You've failed to provide proof that my scenario wouldn't happen.
they've been given. I don't think you realize how outnumbered the jedi are here. i also don't get where you got teh 200 jedi number. Please post a cannon reference indicating the jedi to be over 50.
they wouldn't block the javelines, they'd just slice through it but the point would keep going. Also, i don't think you realize how outnumbered the jedi are here.
so what? he's going to kill 6000 using a battle meditation? just because you say so.
just because you say so. just because you say so. the fact that luke, while powerful, is not infinitely powerful to the point of soloing millions. Everyone has a limited ammount of endurance.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Isn't this a perfect example of one of the very unlikely things that you are discrediting happening? No. This is incredibly likely. Jango was better, therefor he won.

Your argument rests on a few wrong surmises.

1. The roman soldiers are not as good as they are. Roman legionairs are educated tacticians with years of training and experience who have been promoted because of some defining feat.

2. The jedi have an unnatural ability to last forever against nearly eternal attacks.

3. All the jedi are NJO lukes.

4. There are 200 NJO lukes.

5. The romans aren't going to attack with full force.

6. Your jedi know everything about earth and its culture.

And last, but not least:
7. THEY SOME HOW MAKE IT THROUGH THE DESERT.

Originally posted by One Free Man
No. This is incredibly likely. Jango was better, therefor he won.

Thats a very specific scenario. How likely is it for a single non-force sensative person to take on and defeat six jedi unarmed? Not very.

You also dont believe that a YV warrior, on average, is a much better fighter than a Roman warrior in almost every aspect? Interesting.

Also how would they effectively have the entire army fighting 100-200 people at once without getting in eachothers way, or even being able to see the jedi at all through the sea of thier own allies? Someone said there were millions of romans, it doesn't at all seem possible for them to all fight at once.

Here's how many 1.4 million troops are. If you took 1.4 million average white men and stacked them head to foot, they'd go halfway across america. 1500 miles.

this is pi to a million places. scroll down using the mouse weel.... taking forever? that's because a million is ALOT!!!!

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Thats a very specific scenario. How likely is it for a single non-force sensative person to take on and defeat six jedi unarmed? Not very. Pissed off jango? pretty likely.
To be honest, i've never had any interest and therefor never researched the yuzan vong. my remark was made in error.

Originally posted by One Free Man
Here's how many 1.4 million troops are. If you took 1.4 million average white men and stacked them head to foot, they'd go halfway across america. 1500 miles.


Well doesn't that prove your own argument wrong then? The romans can't fight with all of thier army at the same time, there are too many of them.

Originally posted by One Free Man
Pissed off jango? pretty likely.
To be honest, i've never had any interest and therefor never researched the yuzan vong. my remark was made in error.

Stormtroopers were Jango clones, and they usually wouldnt fare very well agaisnt 6 Jedi while alone and unarmed.

The rest of that post is a dissapointing surprise lol.

A few problems with your argument:

The burden of proof is on the person that made the claim, aka you.

The Jedi won't be facing all the Romans at once, as I have pointed out before.

You misunderstood what a Battle Meld is. Wookiee it.

You have not shown how the Romans could deal with the Force. Your javelin idea has many flaws that you can probably figure out.

The idea that a legionary is on par with a Yv warrior is absurd.

The Romans will attack the Jedi in waves, sending a few thousand or tens if thousands each time. To send the entire army at once as you claim would be a very bad mistake. These Romans would get mass Force pushed.

Oh, and what Protection does Nero have that would stop, say, Luke?

Oh, and your demonstration of how big 1.4 million troops would be works
against you; how do the Romans deal with the logistics with that and what troops would be left to guard Nero or police the Empire? How could a general command that many troops using ancient communication? If all the Romans attacked then the Jedi could lure the Romans away while Luke assassinates or captures Nero. Or the Jedi destroy the Roman supply lines and the entire Roman army starves o death.

As for the numbers question, 62 Jedi stormed the Anakin Solo so their numbers are obviously greater than 50 like you implyed.

With your argument about the Romans all bunching together at once disproved, the Romans will attack in waves in the thousands, which Luke alone could solo; he killed thousands of YV warriors in TUF, do
you seriously think that a legionary is more of a threat than a YV warrior?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
do you seriously think that a legionary is more of a threat than a YV warrior?

He already took back that statement. You guys don't even read half the posts your opponent makes do you?

What about Lukes electric judgement or whatever? The Romans wore metal armor if they atatcked at once that lightning would arc and get lots of them......

Sorry for the triple post.

If the Romans try and attack all at once, they starve to death or get lured away leaving Nero and Rome itself open. Besides a general couldn't coordinate a force that large using ancient communication.

If the Romans attack in waves Luke could solo them.

Either way the Jedi win.

Or I could point out that "other SW technology" could include Stealth Xs since The NJO uses them a lot, but that would be a little cheap.

And from what I learned there were trade routes through the Sahara and oasises as well. And I don't know why you assume that the Jedi wouldn't have food and water with them.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
He already took back that statement. You guys don't even read half the posts your opponent makes do you?

Read his profile in the quotes section.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Read his profile in the quotes section.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Unless its that he doesn't like you, that obvious. It seems that no matter what, he will argue against anything you say, no matter right or wrong. Path to the Dark Side lol.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The Roman Emperor, who let's say is Nero, is somehow immediately alerted of the NJO and wants to eliminate them.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
A few problems with your argument:

The burden of proof is on the person that made the claim, aka you.
I don't see why I should follow this. you ignore it constantly.
you failed to recognize a reason.
I read battle meditation, pardon the mistake. No matter what though, he doesn't have an infinite amount of endurance capable of dealing with 1,400,000 troops.
Yes I have. The romans have a practically infinite number of troops to send after them. The Jedi will tire out and slip up, becoming targets before they conquer the eternal horde of conditioned warriors.

And 12 jedi are going to block 1.4 million javelins?


As I said, this comment was made without any working knowledge of the YV, partly because of how shitty the writing was that brought them into existence, and part of because I think they're bullshit.
stop saying this. Why would this be a mistake? whenever they attacked before they sent all available forces. They aren't guerilla warfare people, they're a shield wall, you idiot. They send the entire force. The more, the merrier.
who gives a shit? Luke would have to travel for a thousand miles before making it to rome. Nero isn't the leader of the troops here, it'd most likely be a general. and with so many "legions" which are practically generals minus all the glory, you've got many tactical leadership options available.
wow, um, maybe the 1-3 hundred thousand that normally do that sort of thing? maybe the uh, invasion force+the 1,000,000 extra BATTLE HARDENED, EXPERIENCED, TRAINED OFFICERS could go and attack, while the regular police force takes care of the empire.


Hypothetic bullshit.

here's the math you can't deal with here. If you are placed with a gun against an unlimited ammount of zombies. No matter how much ammo or how far you run, you are going to tire out and be overcome. Even if this was 1,400,000 ewoks the dozen jedi would still stand no chance.

Hypothetical bullshit.

With no tactical strenth or skill at all, 1.4 million ANYTHINGS can overcome 12 jedi. Much less, (as I said before) battle hardened experienced officers.

Yes, i'm back to the 12 known NJO members, since your number of 200 remains unsubstantiated.

Originally posted by One Free Man
Hypothetic bullshit. You know that's all this forum is.

And what are you two still b*tching about?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sorry for the triple post.

If the Romans try and attack all at once, they starve to death or get lured away leaving Nero and Rome itself open. Besides a general couldn't coordinate a force that large using ancient communication. it's like putting a million leaders who know every move their soldiers and their fellow soldiers are going to make. With that many god damn officers, you're not being governed by one officer. They are going to starve to death if they don't attack all at once. You failed to give the one million extra legions any food.

This is a moot point, however, since the jedi died in the desert two weeks ago. Pretty much established.
not gonna happen. Like I said, they're a shield wall.
not going to happen. The jedi have a finite time in battle before they wear out.
fine, stealth X's. how long until they run out of fuel. Do they have a striking capacity capable of destroying 1.4 million threats?

God damn how many times do i have to post the OP? there you go. they are dropped off in the far reaches of egypt. there is no food. Even if there is, it won't last them long as it doesn't say they get camels or some way of toting it.

No matter how many ****ING times i say that there are no trade routes going through the sahara. It's because, if you looked at the map i provided, they'res NOTHING to ****ING trade on the other side!!!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know that's all this forum is.
nah his is like all uncanon and not even based on canon.

Originally posted by One Free Man
fine, stealth X's. how long until they run out of fuel. Do they have a striking capacity capable of destroying 1.4 million threats?


Wait, wut? Stealth Xs are going to give the NJO a huge advantage. I have no idea how long they can go without refueling, but having them at all, with only one tank of fuel would be devastating. Photon torpedos, laser fire, and the ability to fly would all blow the romans minds, literally and metaphorically. Romans probably marched in formations right? A nice tight group of people making a strafing/bombing run extremly effective.

alright, here's where my main argument lies. Giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying that a Roman legionair, a battle-hardened unit of experience and skill, can't stand up to your average NJO jedi for more than 5 seconds, and splitting the burden 12 ways:

THE JEDI WOULD HAVE TO STAY AWAKE AND CONSTANTLY FIGHTING FOR 162 HOURS

Now, if you adjust for casualties and the constant wear of battle, this comes out to way longer. you don't think a Jedi would be making mistakes or nearly falling over after 162 hours of combat? try after 8-10 before the drastic ones that would cost lives start happening. Then it's all down-hill from there.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin


Wait, wut? Stealth Xs are going to give the NJO a huge advantage. I have no idea how long they can go without refueling, but having them at all, with only one tank of fuel would be devastating. Photon torpedos, laser fire, and the ability to fly would all blow the romans minds, literally and metaphorically. Romans probably marched in formations right? A nice tight group of people making a strafing/bombing run extremly effective. yeah i lied. don't put those in there, i was just being drastic.

People, seriously? Seriously? The Romans would RUN. They'd run away.

Roman armies typically arent always on the offensive right? They sleep, plan, eat and stuff. Im sure there will be breaks in the action.

If you are allowing stealth Xs that very quickly solves the Jedi's 162 straight hours of fighting. The Romans would probably be scared to death of the planes anyway, and wouldn't rush into anything.

If i use big bold letters in caps-lock would you think I was anymore right? Maybe put something cool at the end of my posts like "Thanks for playing"?

Uh, THANKS FOR PLAYING... nope, I don't see how that helps, makes me seem pretty arrogant though.

Sorry man, i'm not really trying to pick on you, but you definatly do pick on Hewho, and insult him quite a bit and he always keeps his debate civil.

Exactly Lucien.

Can't we all just get along?

Look, i thought that this was romans vs njo.

I feel like we're speaking different languages.

As in, the romans and the NJO fight. If you wanted them to perform covert ops, you should have just called it "can teh NJO infiltrate the roman empire?" The answer is yes.

"Can the NJO kill managable bite sized waves of romans 50-100 at a time?"
The answer is yes. I'm not arguing this point.

"Would Romans usually run when faced with the NJO?"
The answer is yes. I'm not arguing this point.

"Could 1.4 million romans at a time take down the NJO?"
The answer is Yes. I'm arguing this point. There is no way in hell the jedi stand a chance against this many anything. Any other scenario other than a straight on fight, obviously the jedi win. DUHhhHhh If that's not what you want, it's a spite thread.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Roman armies typically arent always on the offensive right? They sleep, plan, eat and stuff. Im sure there will be breaks in the action.
If they're in a fight, what incentive would the romans have to "put breaks in the action?"
already retracted this.
I only do that for when your little buddy can't seem to read or to rebute a point.
You're not doing it right. The "thanks for playing" is spoken in all lower-case as a cool, collected way of accepting your win, while graciously reminding an ass of his fail.

Thanks for playing.

Yea, if both armies are forced to stand there and fight the NJO will lose. They would(hopefully) realize that and change their tactics. Since it didn't address that in the OP, what are we supposed to assume?

When I debate, i weigh feats and abilities and other factors before coming to a conclusion. Normally, it's supposed to be an all-out fight.

I will concede that the jedi could (after surviving the desert by some miracle, which HWKN is coming on in a moment to make guesses about and then to uphold his guesses about this miracle as fact) and defenitely would be able to masquerade as gods, sneak into rome, whatever. but then how does giving rome 1,000,000 legionairs make it fair in the least?

The OP also says that rome is alerted and wishes to annihilate the jedi.

So I DUNNO.

Originally posted by One Free Man
If they're in a fight, what incentive would the romans have to "put breaks in the action?"

In fights, in history the armies would set up camps, there would be breaks in fighting. Weren't they called campaigns or crusades or something?

I hope your clever "thanks for playing" wasn't directed at me, because I can't see where youve proved me wrong in anything. You did prove yourself wrong a couple times, and that was pretty funny.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
In fights, in history the armies would set up camps, there would be breaks in fighting. Weren't they called campaigns or crusades or something? No. a campaign is something else. so is a crusade.
fix'd so it's not so god damn annoying.

And no, it was simply an example. But I didn't prove myself wrong as much as retract statements. Big difference. I used the takesie-backsies.

Things are confusing when you take statements back lol. Hard to argue against someone when you don't even know what they are gonna stick with.

I only did two, and they were basically admitting to having no knowledge of the YV, therefor the statement was in error. (actually that was more like an admission of ignorance on a topic, which isn't bad when you admit ignorance to something lame like the YV or teh Twilight Universe.)

And not actually meaning that I wanted the X's in the fight.

Its gotta hurt your credibility some when you say you are ignorant of the YV, but are argueing against the NJO, which is the series that the vong were so big in. You do have knowledge of the NJO though?

Anyone remember how many Jedi were in the Myrkr mission and how many Vong they killed then? It was very impressive, considering it was only a dozen or so barley jedi knights, who were mostly in their teens iirc.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Its gotta hurt your credibility some when you say you are ignorant of the YV, but are argueing against the NJO, which is the series that the vong were so big in. You do have knowledge of the NJO though?

Anyone remember how many Jedi were in the Myrkr mission and how many Vong they killed then? It was very impressive, considering it was only a dozen or so barley jedi knights, who were mostly in their teens iirc. Lol, "barley Jedi".

Wookiee lists 17 Jedi Knights, plus two Dark Jedi, and two YVH droids. Both droids destroyed and six Jedi dead. The Dark Jedi booked it.

They killed a f*ck-ton if I remember that book right. Beings used to their tech., and their abilities, and being outside the Force.


Romans lose because they SURRENDER.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Its gotta hurt your credibility some when you say you are ignorant of the YV, but are argueing against the NJO, which is the series that the vong were so big in. You do have knowledge of the NJO though? I have a working knowledge of the NJO. Based off of wikipedia. I have no interest in wasting hours of my life reading the NJO book, which is little more than poorly written published fan-fiction. Ask gideon for some real star wars novels (non canon, of course.)

And also, Hewhoknowsnothing knows nothing about the roman empire or period egypt, which my disknowledge of the vong pales in comparison to.

I didn't really mean it as they were "barley jedi" but that some were padawans and if they were knights they had only recently been knighted.

just wait fifteen minutes, lucien. ROFL

Originally posted by One Free Man
Ask gideon for some real star wars novels (non canon, of course.)


Real Star Wars novels that aren't canon? Which ones are you referring to? Ive read many Star Wars novels, some I enjoyed much more than others.

mm they are fan-fic. GOOD fan fic.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I didn't really mean it as they were "barley jedi" but that some were padawans and if they were knights they had only recently been knighted. Barley Jedi are trained to be made in to beer.

Originally posted by One Free Man
mm they are fan-fic. GOOD fan fic.

Do they have canon characters in them? Or all origonal?

And damn you Lucien, damn you.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Its gotta hurt your credibility some when you say you are ignorant of the YV, but are argueing against the NJO, which is the series that the vong were so big in. You do have knowledge of the NJO though?

Anyone remember how many Jedi were in the Myrkr mission and how many Vong they killed then? It was very impressive, considering it was only a dozen or so barley jedi knights, who were mostly in their teens iirc. http://www.all-creatures.org/recipes/images/i-barley.jpg
BARLEY JEDIS???

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Do they have canon characters in them? Or all origonal?

And damn you Lucien, damn you. It depends, im sure.

They'd probably be tasty with beer nuts.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
And damn you Lucien, damn you. How can you damn me when I hold in my hand the cool refreshing taste of Force Light?

Originally posted by One Free Man
I don't see why I should follow this. you ignore it constantly.



Like when?



Any honest and decent military historian will tell you that an ancient army coordinating and supplying 1.4 million soldiers all clumped together at once is absurd.



And, as I have shown you, the 1.4 million troops won't all come at him at once. Your own evidence disproved your own theory.



Upon seeing the Jedi using their Force powers and space age technology, the Roman legionaries will either run out of fear or bow down and call the Jedi gods.



Where did you get your 12 Jedi idea from? Someone (I think it was Cilghal) stated that there were hundreds of Jedi present in the Jedi Temple.



1. You are the one that tells people to look stuff up that you don't know about, you even have (unless if you removed it) a quote talking about that in your profile.

2. It's common sense. How could an ancient age army almost take over the galaxy?



1.4 million people would require how much food and water? A lot.



Luke can travel pretty fast, many times faster than the eye can see, and since later in your post you concede that the Jedi get Stealth X's he can easily fly there.



"regular police"? Lol the Roman Empire didn't have police.

Please tell me how a Roman army will do jack against a Jedi formation Force pushing them.



You're using a logical fallacy. You haven't actually shown how it is "bs", and just because it's hypothetical doesn't mean that it's BS, especially since you defended that Jango vs Jedi argument in a similar way.



1. There aren't an unlimited amount of Romans, there are 1.4 million since they get an extra million troops. There's a HUGE difference between 1.4 million and infinity.

2. Zombies in most fiction don't need to eat or drink, but Romans do.



Again, this is not a proper way of addressing my point, because it being hypothetical does not equate to it being BS.



300 Spartans almost defeated 500,000 to over a million (depending on the source) Persians. The Persians only won due to a traitor revealing a hidden flanking route.

The Jedi could find a path similar to that of thermopylae, only without a flanking route. The Romans attack like the Persians do, only to get Force pushed into oblivion.

Also, please stop with this "12" BS. In LOTF: Invincible 62 Jedi stormed the Anakin Solo, and there have been references to there being hundreds of Jedi in the Jedi Temple.



Actually, since it was stated that there were hundreds of Jedi in the Temple, my number of 200 is the lowest possibility.

And there's far more than 12 known members. Wookiee it, like you often tell others.

Powerful Jedi are like one man armies themselves.

Originally posted by One Free Man
it's like putting a million leaders who know every move their soldiers and their fellow soldiers are going to make. With that many god damn officers, you're not being governed by one officer. They are going to starve to death if they don't attack all at once. You failed to give the one million extra legions any food.



The one million extra legionaries have the food that the Empire is capable of supplying them given their resources.

To march 1.4 million troops into battle at once in ancient times presents these problems:

1. How do they feed all those troops?
2. How do they command all those troops? There has to be a centralized command or else the officers will start doing random stuff that don't coordinate well.
3. How do they fit that many troops in a battleground? It's possible that the troops could suffocate, which is has happened with smaller numbers before.
4. What if Luke uses Electric Judgment, or a Jedi uses a light side variant of Force lightning? That could chain to quite a bit of people.
5. How do they effectively maneuver? To give an order to a group that long would take quite a while; it may take over an hour just to get the group to move to a place, so how do they, say, protect their supply lines?
6. Wouldn't a mass Force push knock them over like dominos?
7. How do the individual troops maneuver when they might not be able to breathe?

And, last but not least.

8. How is this going to do jack against Stealth X's?



Stealth X's FTW.



Roman tactics are outdated and inefficient against a space age army. Their shield wall (well, the Roman variant of it) is based on the assumption that their shields can actually block attacks, but the Jedi with lightsabers, blasters, Stealth X laser cannons and the Force could easily get through wooden shields.



They have much more stamina than the Romans, who would be suffocating from being squished. The Jedi would be in a formation that gives much more breathing room AND they have the Force to keep their stamina up.



Stealth X's were capable of severely crippling star destroyers that had shields capable of withstanding trillion of gigawatts of energy.



Stealth X's FTW.



I could argue this with you, but:

Stealth X's FTW

Youre saying the same thing over and over, neither of you are going to change your positions, why continue?

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Youre saying the same thing over and over, neither of you are going to change your positions, why continue?

Actually, I did indeed improve my argument; I pretty much destroyed his argument of all 1.4 million troops attacking at once AND I got Stealth X's, which destroys his desert argument and any argument of the Romans winning via pure numbers.

BTW sorry about my statement that the Roman Empire didn't have police; they apparently did have their version of it.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Actually, I did indeed improve my argument; I pretty much destroyed
McAeQiLmEYU

you idiot, no you didn't. I used takesie backsies.

Also, you keep referring to the NJO as you, why is this? This isn't a game of chess, it's a debate. We are supposed to be objective.
No it doesn't.

Well One Free Man, maybe you could respond to my other posts (or maybe you are in the process of doing so right now).

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Youre saying the same thing over and over, neither of you are going to change your positions, why continue?

Smartest thing said in this thread so far.

One thing: I think at the time of the NJO series, there were 200 Jedi active (I remember a scene where Luke was concerned that if the Jedi didn't exercise caution, the galaxy would be faced with 200 Darth Vaders - Source is Vector Prime I believe). Or was it 100? Can somebody confirm? Don't have the book with me.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Like when?

You make a bullshit scenario and then tell me to "prove you wrong." you retard.

They're a shield wall you idiot. That's their tactic. They all come at you at once.

Also, i've stated that the only way the romans win this is if they all attack at once. I've stated that they get creamed if they attack in waves or if the jedi perform some sort of covert ops, but in a straight-on fight, the jedi lose.
You're an idiot. No I didn't. Go back and read that post. I said laying down head to foot. Not standing shoulder to shoulder or in a block formation. You fail.


You don't read any of my posts, do you. ok here it is.

Please, post links, quotes, or facts to back it up. Burden of proof, remember, like your oh so good at following? prove it.

Thank you for reading my profile. I don't ask people to look up things that I have the burden of proving to them. You also abandoned my jar jar argument, you fool.

Oh, wait, I thought we were ignoring obvious shit for a second. like... HOW THE **** DO THEY GET THROUGH THE SAHARA WITH NO FOOD OR WATER.
Stealth X's by no means follow the OP. Also:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12850433#post12850433

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12850438#post12850438

already retracted that statement, idiot.

Duh, the roman legions who act as police. Jesus christ do I have to spell everything out for you?
outlast them. The jedi would have to be awake for at least 162 hours to kill every single one.
McAeQiLmEYU
McAeQiLmEYU McAeQiLmEYU
McAeQiLmEYU


the jedi would have to stay awake for 162 hours in order to kill them all.

It was an analogy, you retard.

McAeQiLmEYU
This youtube is just so very useful!
the spartans had quite a number of factors on their side. this is far from the same thing.
McAeQiLmEYU
at what point in time? this is the point in time i'm going with. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Jedi_Order#Jedi_Praxeum_.2811_to_18_ABY.29
Burden of proof isn't on me.

But then, thanks for playing.

Originally posted by One Free Man
You make a bullshit scenario and then tell me to "prove you wrong." you retard.



I proved my scenario (if you disagree with it then prove it). You tried to disprove my scenario by using an analogy that claimed that Jar Jar Binks was Force sensitivity without giving proof.



wtf? Do you even know what a shield wall is? Do you know how pathetically useless a shield wall would be against weapons that can go through shields?



In a straight on fight? This is a war, not a single fight. I have shown that the Romans putting together 1.4 million troops and attacking at once is logistically impossible using Roman technology. Therefore, they will have to attack in waves, and, as you have admitted, the Jedi would win if the Romans did that (which they will have to).



My point is that my trying to show how big 1.4 million troops would be you bring up the question as to how an ancient commander is supposed to coordinate them and feed them.



Ok.



LOTF: Invincible

"Out came a dozen Jedi Masters leading fifty Jedi Knights"

Which puts to shame your claim of there only being 12 Jedi in the entire NJO.

And that isn't the entire NJO either, because there were many on the planet fighting the ground battle and also many in space.

Oh, and the Anakin Solo was an Imperial 2 class star destroyer, which had a crew of around 37,085 people. 62 Jedi easily defeated 37,085 space age soldiers without suffering any reported casualties. According to LOTF: Invincible they won within minutes. And here's you thinking that a bunch of Roman soldiers could do jack to them.



I have not abandoned your Jar Jar argument; I asked you to prove that Jar Jar is Force sensitive.



Basically you're retracting whatever statement that goes against your position.



But you suggested that ALL the legionaries attack the Jedi at once. See the obvious contradiction?



If each Jedi cuts down a Roman about every second, which is reasonable and maybe even a little slow given that many can move faster than the eye can see, and they could blaster them with automatic blasters, it would take about 100 minutes to cut down every Roman using this simplistic calculations, which is actually shorter than a lot battles.



Posting a prank youtube video isn't proof.



Proved wrong.



And I was showing you that it was a poor analogy. A better analogy would be if a US Alpha Team soldier with advanced weapons and unlimited ammo fought 6000 zombies who would coming from 10 miles away.



Again, posting a prank youtube video isn't proof.



How?



As of FOTJ, which is also the time period of the NJO in this thread.






It's quite clear that you underestimate the Jedi and overestimate the Romans. How does one commander using ancient technology coordinate 1.4 million troops? That's around the size of the US army, and it takes several huge military bases with advanced electronics, generals and many skilled professions to coordinate the US army, and even then things sometimes mess up.

You think about war too simply. Logistics are important, and grouping 1.4 million troops together in ancient times and trying to coordinate them and feed them simply isn't possible. Therefore, they will HAVE to attack in waves, and, as YOU admitted, if they do that (which they will have to) then the Jedi win easily.

There's more to a battle or war then "zomg the Romans have so many soldiers in this scenario!!!!!!!!!". The Jedi will be much more maneuverable than the Romans. They will be able to strike at specific points in the Roman line, and the far sides of the Roman line won't be fast enough to attack; by the time the order to attack is sent the Jedi would've succeeded. The can make gaping holes in the Roman lines using blitzing tactics and Force pushes/lightsaber strikes, disorganizing the Roman formation. If somehow outmatched, the Jedi can retreat (in which they would be far faster than the Romans due to the Force, less armor on and easier coordination) and try again later.

One Free Man, of my post, the most important part is this:


Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall


There's more to a battle or war then "zomg the Romans have so many soldiers in this scenario!!!!!!!!!". The Jedi will be much more maneuverable than the Romans. They will be able to strike at specific points in the Roman line, and the far sides of the Roman line won't be fast enough to attack; by the time the order to attack is sent the Jedi would've succeeded. The can make gaping holes in the Roman lines using blitzing tactics and Force pushes/lightsaber strikes, disorganizing the Roman formation. If somehow outmatched, the Jedi can retreat (in which they would be far faster than the Romans due to the Force, less armor on and easier coordination) and try again later.


See? The Jedi with their Force powers, superior training, superior tactics, superior technology and superior maneuverability, all of which are EXTREMELY valuable to a battle or war, easily defeat a numerically superior Roman force by outmaneuvering them and launching devastating attacks on concentrated portions of the Roman formation. The Romans, despite having huge numbers, won't be able to do anything because their maneuverability would be extremely poor if they somehow could put 1.4 million troops in one battle. Sound and visual orders wouldn't work due to the huge distance that an army that large would cover, so they would have to use messengers, and a messenger even on horseback would take a while to run that far and it would tire them, and they could get shot.

The problem is that you aren't that knowledgable on military tactics, so you think "zomg the Romans have more numbers so they win!!!" win the advantages of the Jedi would wtf pwn the Romans with ease.

I'm going to stop arguing with you. You are just copy/pasting previous posts.

I've already said:

yes, the jedi could defeat manageable bite-size waves.

Yes, the jedi could pose as gods.

and

Yes the jedi would die when stood up to the entire legion at once. I've stated that this is the only way the romans could win. As such, this is what i'm arguing for. I'm not arguing that the top two wouldn't happen, but 1,400,000 romans vs the jedi is a jedi slaughter if they are all together.

Consider this my farewell as your poor debate tactics and unwillingness to improve there-on have given you an eternal spot on my ignore list.

Before I go, however, I will send you a pm that states in clearcut, layman's language, exactly what i'm trying to say here.

Originally posted by One Free Man
I'm going to stop arguing with you. You are just copy/pasting previous posts.

I've already said:

yes, the jedi could defeat manageable bite-size waves.

Yes, the jedi could pose as gods.

and

Yes the jedi would die when stood up to the entire legion at once. I've stated that this is the only way the romans could win. As such, this is what i'm arguing for. I'm not arguing that the top two wouldn't happen, but 1,400,000 romans vs the jedi is a jedi slaughter if they are all together.

Consider this my farewell as your poor debate tactics and unwillingness to improve there-on have given you an eternal spot on my ignore list.

Before I go, however, I will send you a pm that states in clearcut, layman's language, exactly what i'm trying to say here.

You're IGNORING my argument that it would be logistically impossible for an ancient army to field 1.4 million troops in ONE BATTLE AT ONCE.

See? "if they are all together" wouldn't work for the Romans because their communication abilities would be crap and the Romans would sit there waiting for hours before receiving their orders while miles away on the other side of the Roman line the Romans are getting pwned by the Jedi, and the rest of the 1.4 million troops have to wait to receive orders from a messenger before attacking.


What you probably realize is that YOU'VE LOST. You have NOT provided an argument as to how the Romans put together 1.4 million troops for one battle.




Repeat:

The Romans do NOT have the logistical capabilities to field 1.4 million troops in a single battle and properly communicate and coordinate!






It takes the USA numerous advanced technology, lots of professions, many generals, many bases, a huge chain of command, and TRILLION OF DOLLARS to do that.

Here's the one where your telling me to realize i've lost because I'm not arguing with you any more and getting the last word in?

Am I right?

Originally posted by One Free Man
Here's the one where your telling me to realize i've lost because I'm not arguing with you any more and getting the last word in?

Am I right?

No, you still haven't explained how the Romans logistically put 1.4 million troops in a single battle and effectively communicate with eachother.

You've LOST and you probably know it.

If the Romans put 1.4 million troops in one location, THEY DIE OF SUFFOCATION AND THE FACT THAT IT WOULD TAKE HOURS TO RECEIVE AND PUT INTO EFFECT AN ORDER!

One Free Man, you have IGNORED this argument.

I'm sure, right now, you're still arguing your points, trying to prove that I've lost when having rid my head of your incomprehensible rambling makes me the winner.

Originally posted by One Free Man
I'm sure, right now, you're still arguing your points, trying to prove that I've lost when having rid my head of your incomprehensible rambling makes me the winner.

The Romans can't logistically put together a 1.4 million man army in one single battle.

The above statement is one that you know you can't counter.

See? You know that you're wrong, and instead of being a good person and admitting defeat, you insult me, despite the fact that I'm RIGHT.

You KNOW that I haven't done anything wrong to be the target of any insults from you. You KNOW that you've lost this argument. If not, then please refute that statement that I made about logistics, because I've been bringing it up for the past several pages and you've been ignoring it.

Just stop.

I wonder if he's gone into "Why does everyone hate me??? IMA GUD DEBATRRR" phase yet.

Originally posted by truejedi
Just stop.

If you want to comment, please read the last page, or the last few pages, and our arguments. You'll quite clearly realize that I've won.

One Free Man asked me to prove a negative.
He also claimed that there were only 12 Jedi in the NJO.
He also ignored my main argument.
He thinks that an ancient army using ancient communication can communicate with 1.4 million troops in a battle effectively.
He makes up calculations without giving any mathematical evidence for it (50,000 per Jedi? What? Hundreds of hours per Jedi? What?).
He thinks that a SHIELD WALL would stop LIGHTSABERS.
He thinks that javelins are harder to block than blaster bolts.
He thinks that YV warriors are not as powerful as Roman legionaries (he took this back because apparently he didn't research this, despite a part of his profile mocking the very mistake he just made).
He wants to have the entire Roman army fight at once while also leaving behinds part of the army to police the civilians. He wants to put ALL of them in once place and leave some of them in another?

TJ (or anyone else): Try putting yourself in the role of One Free Man trying to refute my arguments. Look at my final few arguments. I bet that none of you would be able to refute it. None of you.

I'm not trying to brag about winning, I'm upset and frustrated that One Free Man can't act like a mature person and admit defeat when he knows he's wrong and instead stops debating and starts insulting me like a little 5 year old.

hmm. I'm sure that was an indignant and straw-man infested response to TJ's "just stop?"

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If you want to comment, please read the last page, or the last few pages, and our arguments. You'll quite clearly realize that I've won.

One Free Man asked me to prove a negative.
He also claimed that there were only 12 Jedi in the NJO.
He also ignored my main argument.
He thinks that an ancient army using ancient communication can communicate with 1.4 million troops in a battle effectively.
He makes up calculations without giving any mathematical evidence for it (50,000 per Jedi? What? Hundreds of hours per Jedi? What?).
He thinks that a SHIELD WALL would stop LIGHTSABERS.
He thinks that javelins are harder to block than blaster bolts.
He thinks that YV warriors are not as powerful as Roman legionaries (he took this back because apparently he didn't research this, despite a part of his profile mocking the very mistake he just made).
He wants to have the entire Roman army fight at once while also leaving behinds part of the army to police the civilians. He wants to put ALL of them in once place and leave some of them in another?

TJ (or anyone else): Try putting yourself in the role of One Free Man trying to refute my arguments. Look at my final few arguments. I bet that none of you would be able to refute it. None of you.

I'm not trying to brag about winning, I'm upset and frustrated that One Free Man can't act like a mature person and admit defeat when he knows he's wrong and instead stops debating and starts insulting me like a little 5 year old.

tl;dr I beat OFM lol.

No one cares. Not even OFM.

Originally posted by Shoes
tl;dr I beat OFM lol.

No one cares. Not even OFM.

That's not my point. My point is that One Free Man knows that he's lost, but instead of being a mature, good person , he acts like a 5 year old and insults me while refusing to actually use logic.

It's good that you choose to inform the good people of KMC about his infidelity. Out of curiousity, why?