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Sabers only. This is ROTS Anakin. No shatterpoint.

Two on one I don't think anyone could hope to beat these two.

Team.

Yeah if it was either individual then Kas'im more likely, but not both.

But Kas'ims greatest feat may be that he was named the best duelist in the galaxy at the time he lived by Bane, but his second best: getting crushed by a temple while blocking an uber-wave

Kas'im stands no chance in hell.

Windu beat Sidious in sabers. Kas'sim wouldn't stand a chance.

I thought Vaapad and shatterpoint were excluded as the more incorporeal Force-fueled aspects of Mace's dueling skills?

OP says no shatterpoint. Doesn't say a word about Vapaad. Shatterpoint isn't why Mace beat Sidious.

Never said it was. But I always felt Vaapad to be part of Windu's Force arsenal. Not a saber style or a saber "skill" but a philosophy and frame of mind borne of the Force and used to enhance his abilities.

fap fap fap

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Never said it was. But I always felt Vaapad to be part of Windu's Force arsenal. Not a saber style or a saber "skill" but a philosophy and frame of mind borne of the Force and used to enhance his abilities. While it's true that Vaapad is, in part, a state of mind (which is how the superconducting loop is able to work), Mace still referred to it as a variation of form VII/Juyo... So it is a fighting style as well.

Either could solo.

Spite

Originally posted by truejedi
OP ...Shatterpoint isn't why Mace beat Sidious.

Actually, in a way it was. Windu claimed that if Vaapad were his only gift, then the battle would go on forever... an endless stalemate. Shatterpoint was the straw the broke the camel's back.

no, it started to be, but he never found Sidious's shatterpoint. Look it up. I promise. He got sidetracked when he found Anakin standing in the doorway.

^ Anakin was Sidious's shatterpoint in that scene.

Originally posted by truejedi
no, it started to be, but he never found Sidious's shatterpoint. Look it up. I promise. He got sidetracked when he found Anakin standing in the doorway. "In the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half."

That excerpt makes it difficult for me to discern whether or not Mace was using Vaapad or Shatterpoint (or a mixture of both) to down Palpatine in the final moments of their duel... Mace did "angle the battle" to exploit Palpatine's weaknesses -- and that seems indicative of Shatterpoint. However, the line: "Mace turned the shadow's fear into a weapon" sounds like Vaapad..? *scratches head*

I guess I can go out on a limb and say that Shatterpoint likely had something to do with it. The novelization made it pretty clear that Mace and Palpatine would have been locked in a perpetual stalemate, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift *enter Shatterpoint*.

Not sure, though.

Originally posted by truejedi
no, it started to be, but he never found Sidious's shatterpoint. Look it up. I promise. He got sidetracked when he found Anakin standing in the doorway.

Nah.

actually, yes. I appreciate your reams of evidence to the contrary, but you will have to do better.

Forgot in OP: Vaapad (the fighting form) can be used, but the state of mind aspect of it is left out.

How exactly would that work? You can swing your sword but you can't think about it?

This is blatant speculation. The only worthwhile discussion is one where Mace is not gimped into something we've never seen, and in that discussion Kas'im is overpowered by the two Force Titans' abilities.

It means Windu can use the deadliest form, but he cannot reach that state of mind he was in while dueling Sidious and match him.

isn't that what the deadliest for IS though? What we saw in ROTS? And also, Vapaad, even when not facing someone of Sidious's caliber can produce what we saw in shatterpoint where he punched Kar Vastor in the face 4 times "before he could blink".

Originally posted by Shoes
It means Windu can use the deadliest form, but he cannot reach that state of mind he was in while dueling Sidious and match him. Makes no sense.

you make no sence

Simply put, treat Vaapad like a saber form (like Dooku's Makashi) and not like the state of mind in which Windu can absorb darkness and release it again.

1. Why would Sidious learn the Force storm technique and not use it in the numerous opportunities he had? Is this a typical display of Sidious's blinding arrogance?

2. Vapaad is both a fighting form and state of mind.

Originally posted by Shoes
you make no sence

Simply put, treat Vaapad like a saber form (like Dooku's Makashi) and not like the state of mind in which Windu can absorb darkness and release it again. And we are greatly hindering Vaapad, why?

Originally posted by truejedi
actually, yes. I appreciate your reams of evidence to the contrary, but you will have to do better.

As was stated earlier... Anakin was said Shatterpoint. It's Canon bub.

Originally posted by Galan007
And we are greatly hindering Vaapad, why?
To make the fight some what fair...

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
As was stated earlier... Anakin was said Shatterpoint. It's Canon bub.

Jinsoku, you do me a GIANT misservice if you think I DON'T KNOW what is written in the book. Anakin was his shatterpoint, but that shatterpoint didn't help Mace defeat Sidious.

I suggest you re-read the passage, and then make a counter-argument. Your "no" is a very poor representation of your ability methinks.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
As was stated earlier... Anakin was said Shatterpoint. It's Canon bub. The novel notes Mace's realization that Anakin was Sidious' shatterpoint after he had won the lightsaber duel.

Dumb niqqer. Read.

Feeling for its shatterpoint.
He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the
largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the
now-
And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the
slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force
was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a
thunderhead.
The chosen one was here.

Read on Shoes you Idiot. His victory over Sidious had NOTHING to do with said shatterpoint.

I thought that another shatterpoint was the windows.

that is not stated.

Originally posted by truejedi
Jinsoku, you do me a GIANT misservice if you think I DON'T KNOW what is written in the book. Anakin was his shatterpoint, but that shatterpoint didn't help Mace defeat Sidious.

I suggest you re-read the passage, and then make a counter-argument. Your "no" is a very poor representation of your ability methinks.

TJ, I've been buried in work the last few days but will get back to you on this matter as soon as possible.

Originally posted by truejedi
Read on Shoes you Idiot. His victory over Sidious had NOTHING to do with said shatterpoint.

You're twisting my words to attempt to fit your pathetic and invalid argument. He claimed that Windu didn't realise Anakin was his shatterpoint until after the fight, whereas the above quote states the opposite.

Furthermore, re-read ROTS. One line explicitly states that they were at an impasse, and the only way he could beat him was through shatterpoint.

then he finds said shatterpoint, which is anakin, then sidious goes out on the ledge (which was not a shatterpoint, according to the novel anyway) and the rest is history. Mace's shatterpoint didn't help him in this duel. (though he tried to use it)

This was a point that intrigued me.

The novel says that he was able to disarm him because "his fear made him hesitate". Well, that's all fine and dandy, but then Palpatine roars that the fear he felt wasn't actually his. Now, if that were the case, that means that Windu never legitimately beat him.

well, something made him hesitate.

Shoes
Now, if that were the case, that means that Windu never legitimately beat him.

Mace later confirms this (that it wasn't Palpatine's fear) to be the case, "Palpatine wasn't afraid at all."

Alright truejedi: After carefully re-reading the RotS novelization version of the battle between Mace Windu and Darth Sidious, I have to say that I can see where you're coming from in regards to your stance on the matter. However, with that being said, it appears that Mace - via Shatterpoint - traces the fautline back to Anakin standing in the doorway (apparently frozen in fear). Mace (sensing this fear, thinking it to be Sids') directs the battle to the window ledge. Mace then uses this fear against Sids to, well, slow him down, therefore allowing him the opportunity to disarm Sids. Either way, whether it was Anakin's fear or Sidious' that Mace was sensing, it would seem that Shatterpoint is what played the key role at this point. In the end, the scene leaves some room for interpretation (bad writing maybe?). Let me know what you think.

Jinsoku: I can get your interpretation there, but since his shatterpoint WASN'T the fear that Mace thought it was... Sidious wasn't scared, but being out on the ledge slowed him down. that wasn't really shatterpoint working though.

Prove the ledge slowed him down. The novel only stated that he pushed him out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate, mentioning nothing about speed.

It also says "Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete."

Originally posted by truejedi
Jinsoku: I can get your interpretation there, but since his shatterpoint WASN'T the fear that Mace thought it was... Sidious wasn't scared, but being out on the ledge slowed him down. that wasn't really shatterpoint working though.

Regardless of whether Sidious was afraid or not, Shatterpoint was what lead Mace to direct the battle in that manner.

And Shoes... WTF?

Thanks ares834 - that pretty much summarizes what my response would have been.

Originally posted by ares834
It also says "Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete."

This, Shoes The Uneducated

Not that your trolling isn't annoying me, but it's just so blatantly transparent. At least put some effort into it. The novel did indeed state "Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate." What you fail to comprehend was that Palpatine wasn't afraid. The reason why he sensed fear, was because Sidious was projecting fear, so that Anakin could see Palpatine as weak.

Originally posted by Shoes
Not that your trolling isn't annoying me, but it's just so blatantly transparent. At least put some effort into it. The novel did indeed state "Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate." What you fail to comprehend was that Palpatine wasn't afraid. The reason why he sensed fear, was because Sidious was projecting fear, so that Anakin could see Palpatine as weak.

You said...



And that's exactly what ares834 did. What don't you understand? If Sidious had to turn some of his Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete, then logic would dictate that he in fact slowed down. It's plain as day.

And who do you think is trolling here?

See above post.

His fear made him concetrate on gripping the floor. It was then proven he was not afraid. Ergo, him slowing down was part of his elaborate ruse.

Shoes, your argument keeps changing. Please define what you are trying to say, and if someone responds to it, RESPOND TO THAT, don't change your argument. Thanks.

Originally posted by Shoes
See above post.

His fear made him concetrate on gripping the floor. It was then proven he was not afraid. Ergo, him slowing down was part of his elaborate ruse.
This is a great point. Sadly, because of the 15 minute time limit, it does not pull you out of the fire. Look at your post before the "T" word started getting thrown around:Originally posted by Shoes
Prove the ledge slowed him down. The novel only stated that he pushed him out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate, mentioning nothing about speed.

Your position was untenable because you used that tagline right there (the one that is highlighted). If you had not included it as the keystone in your argument then you would be free to quibble about the root cause of the slowdown. By including that phrase, however, your position was open for attack on factual terms. It was a matter of fact that Sidious slowed down and, regardless of your overreaching point, you were mistaken in your defiant assertion that speed was not mentioned. It would reflect much more favorably on your maturity and ability if you were willing to admit that you made a mistake in this instance. (That particular talent is one of the most valuable you will learn here.)

I did not have the novel with me at the time, and I accept that I made a mistake.

However, I originally demanded proof of the ledge slowing him down. The quote which was posted in response was irrelevant, because his fear slowed him down, not the ledge in question. Since Palpatine's fear was a charade, it's safe to assume him slowing down was part of the comedy.

or some other very real reason slowed him down. Sidious wasn't putting on a charade of fear at that point. Anakin WAS afraid. It wasn't something Sidious was creating for him, so Sidious wouldn't have pretended to slow down because of non-existent fear, since he was surprised that Windu thought the fear belonged to Anakin.

^

wut da hell r u sayin

S makes a very interesting point... Windu assumes that Palpatine slowed down due to his own fear, but later concludes that Palpatine wasn't afraid at all; it was Anakin who was afraid. This fact, combined with the fact that Palpatine was communicating through Skywalker telepathically when Anakin was sitting in the Council chambers (the movie), the fact that Palpatine sensed both Skywalker's turmoil and Windu's determination through the Force (the novelization), and Vader's own thoughts on the issue (Death Star) leads to a strong (if not conclusive) argument in favor of Palpatine restraining himself the entire time.

Originally posted by truejedi
or some other very real reason slowed him down. Sidious wasn't putting on a charade of fear at that point. Anakin WAS afraid. It wasn't something Sidious was creating for him, so Sidious wouldn't have pretended to slow down because of non-existent fear, since he was surprised that Windu thought the fear belonged to Anakin.

Sidious wasn't afraid. He didn't know that Mace thought that fear in the room belonged to him (Sidious) So he had no reason to play-act his fear.

He slowed down because he had to use some of his force-enhanced speed as a force-enhanced grip. That much had nothing to do with his fear. Hesitation isn't fear.

TJ
Hesitation isn't fear.

Yes it is; in the same way that irritation is anger. It's just a diluted form of a core emotion.

The novelization is told through Windu's perspective; Windu assumes that Palpatine slowed down due to fear and later corrects himself: Palpatine wasn't afraid at all. It's pretty compelling, actually, though I will grant that it's not necessarily conclusive.

it isn't necessarily. Hesitation can be evaluation as well. Or a survival instinct. Not fear.

I think y'all are over-thinking it too much. Like TJ said, the reason Sidious slowed down is because the battle was angled in such a way that he was forced out onto a wet/slippery ledge. Because of this new-found battle locale, Sidious had to divert some of his force speed into force grip so that he didn't fall off the side of the building... And in that moment of 'weakness', Mace was able to make his move and disarm him.

Not overthinking it; just making sense of what we're given. Lucas really is a clever, clever bastard.

TJ
it isn't necessarily.

No, it really is. Seriously.



Because you're afraid to impulsively act.



Because you're afraid of a threat.



Indeed.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think y'all are over-thinking it too much. Like TJ said, the reason Sidious slowed down is because the battle was angled in such a way that he was forced out onto a wet/slippery ledge. Because of this new-found battle locale, Sidious had to divert some of his force speed into force grip so that he didn't fall off the side of the building... And in that moment of 'weakness', Mace was able to make his move and disarm him.

The quote is out where the shadow's fear made him.... Since he was not afraid, his slight faltering was a tactical move, nothing more.

Where does the idea come from that Sidious wasn't afraid? Was it because he said it... lulz. First, Palpatine is a manupilative liar. Second of all he never says it in the movies.

This is a good point. Palpatine's line about the fear not being his is non-canon anyway. the silent parts of that passage are still canon, because they are not directly contradicted, but Sidious's line denying the fear (the only indication we have that what Mace sensed was wrong) is non-canon.

^

Additionally, I find it amusing how some people seem to pick and choose which Palpatine statements are true, and which aren't.

TJ
but Sidious's line denying the fear (the only indication we have that what Mace sensed was wrong) is non-canon.

You lazy, goodfernuthin' sumbitches. Did you not even read the book? While I can't speak for Shoes, I can speak for myself, and I'm not basing my opinion at all on Palpatine's claim that he wasn't afraid, but Mace's own conclusion that Palpatine wasn't afraid. Which remains perfectly valid.

Where does it say that?

Look for the line that says "Palpatine wasn't afraid/worried at all. He trusted Anakin Skywalker."

^ The line I believe you're referring to has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Here's the whole excerpt:

"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!" He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind - And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all."

Palpatine wasn't worried during that particular scene, because he knew Anakin would not help Mace... Despite his pleas.

Of course it does. It fits in with the entire sequence; Windu was being played, Palpatine wasn't afraid for his life at all.

^ No. In that scene, Palpatine wasn't afraid because he knew Anakin wouldn't help Mace. That's it.

I'm sorry, but it makes too much sense.

^ You make no sense.


....I'd still do you, though. bashful

It makes perfect sense:

Skywalker told Palpatine that he was going to inform the Council (movie/novelization/screenplay); Palpatine sensed Skywalker's turmoil and Windu's presence through the Force (novelization); Palpatine communicated with Skywalker telepathically to prompt him to interfere (movie); Palpatine records the confrontation to frame the Jedi (novelization); Palpatine was not afraid of Windu (novelization); Palpatine was feigning weakness (Lucas); Vader himself believes Palpatine was in control the entire time (Death Star).

Windu got punk'd.

Originally posted by Gideon
It makes perfect sense:

Skywalker told Palpatine that he was going to inform the Council (movie/novelization/screenplay); Palpatine sensed Skywalker's turmoil and Windu's presence through the Force (novelization); Palpatine communicated with Skywalker telepathically to prompt him to interfere (movie); Palpatine records the confrontation to frame the Jedi (novelization); Palpatine was not afraid of Windu (novelization); Palpatine was feigning weakness (Lucas); Vader himself believes Palpatine was in control the entire time (Death Star).

Windu got punk'd. looney

Lucas is a clever, clever bastard. He's using the same method with Palpatine's defeat that he used with the whole Plagueis/Palpatine apprenticeship.

Originally posted by Gideon
Plagueis/Palpatine apprenticeship.

Theres info on that now?

Originally posted by Gideon
Windu got punk'd. how is it that mace can overpower and defeat sidious, but mace is the one who "got punkd"? weird say i !

dude
how is it that mace can overpower and defeat sidious, but mace is the one who "got punkd"? weird say i !

Who said that the two are mutually exclusive? Furthermore, who said that Palpatine was fighting to kill Windu and not simply to delay?

Originally posted by john allerdyce
how is it that mace can overpower and defeat sidious, but mace is the one who "got punkd"? weird say i !

Gid is saying that Sids played him the entire battle. While offering compelling evidence, GL said that Mace "overpowered" Sidious. Either way... this is an intriguing debate, one of which I will continue to watch w/ great interest.

The fact that Lucas said Windu "overpowered" Palpatine is not in dispute, because Palpatine did not have to be fighting at full lethal capacity in order for Windu to technically overpower him.

Originally posted by Gideon
The fact that Lucas said Windu "overpowered" Palpatine is not in dispute, because Palpatine did not have to be fighting at full lethal capacity in order for Windu to technically overpower him.

You guys are just debating on speculation right now, right? If so, whats the point? Nobody can be proved right or wrong.

Originally posted by Gideon
The fact that Lucas said Windu "overpowered" Palpatine is not in dispute, because Palpatine did not have to be fighting at full lethal capacity in order for Windu to technically overpower him.

If a grown man is wrestling w/ one of his kids, and allows them to pin him or whatever, one is not to say that he was "overpowered" by them, correct?! Of course not!

^ I mentioned this in an earlier thread in the EU section. The official databank on the Star Wars website mentions that "with his defenses stripped, Windu was easily overpowered by Chancellor Palpatine", referring to the scene in which Windu's sword arm was amputated by Skywalker and, while he is screaming in agony, Palpatine kills him.

Yet the word "overpower" is still used by a canon source to describe that situation, even when Windu was too overcome by pain to even attempt to defend himself.

Palpatine need not have been fighting his hardest or going "all out" on Windu in order to have been overpowered.

*sighs*

^ Your defeat pleases me. Be back later lawlz

Arm gone or not, he was STILL trying his damnedest to hold him off, he was simply overpowered. You're trying to compare this with a situation in which Sidious was supposedly pulling his punches with Windu. Doesn't work here.

^ Uhh, where did he try to hold Palpatine's lightning off?

Originally posted by Gideon
^ Uhh, where did he try to hold Palpatine's lightning off?

Oh gee, wut da hell wuz I thnkin? Mace musta just said fuk it, right? Yes, he couldn't block it with his stub, but he wasn't "holding back" either, as was Sidious (per yer word). You know damn well that this is a completely different situation, and to compare the two is... well... either a game, or outright foolishness. One can't be "overpowered" if he/she/it is holding back. However, Sidious was indeed, "overpowered" (per GL). I'll be back later, as I have sum bbq to look after. Yummmm.

@ gid.

GL himself had no problem saying that sidious was faking his state of weakness in front of anakin to help lure him in. so surely if GL also intended sidious to be holding back during the duel portion of the battle, he would have said so. instead he chose to say that mace "overpowered" him... your opinion that sidious was holding back when he was '"overpowered" CANNOT be proven. not at all. so stop trying to belittle mace's feat.

now im sure youll try to say something cheeky and witty to try and snake your way around those facts, but in the end all you have is your baseless opinion. and that just wont hold up my dear boy.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Arm gone or not, he was STILL trying his damnedest to hold him off, he was simply overpowered. You're trying to compare this with a situation in which Sidious was supposedly pulling his punches with Windu. Doesn't work here. It does work. Palpatine was overpowered, as in his defenses, but that does not mean he was trying to kill Mace. IMO Palpatine was not trying to actually kill Mace right away, or why else would he call Anakin back to the office?

I guess you can argue that he called Anakin back because he was unsure if he was able to beat Mace. Then again Palpatine has shown that when he is unsure, he does not take a risk and tries to avoid the fight (like with Yoda).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It does work. Palpatine was overpowered, as in his defenses, but that does not mean he was trying to kill Mace. IMO Palpatine was not trying to actually kill Mace right away, or why else would he call Anakin back to the office?

I highlighted the important part. Can't be proven one way or the other.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It does work. Palpatine was overpowered, as in his defenses, but that does not mean he was trying to kill Mace. IMO Palpatine was not trying to actually kill Mace right away, or why else would he call Anakin back to the office?

I guess you can argue that he called Anakin back because he was unsure if he was able to beat Mace. Then again Palpatine has shown that when he is unsure, he does not take a risk and tries to avoid the fight (like with Yoda).

Your opinion means nothing.

Sidious was trying to kill Mace but it doesn't mean he was going all out because I don't think he believed it to be a life or death situation, which is why he was "overpowered" but not defeated. The term defeated would be more "complete" than overpowered. Sidious goes all out I think only twice; once against Yoda and once against Luke, the two times he thought there was reasonable danger.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sidious was trying to kill Mace but it doesn't mean he was going all out because I don't think he believed it to be a life or death situation, which is why he was "overpowered" but not defeated. The term defeated would be more "complete" than overpowered. Sidious goes all out I think only twice; once against Yoda and once against Luke, the two times he thought there was reasonable danger. I see where you are coming from but I can't agree. Neither the film or the novel depicted Sidious holding back during the lightsaber fight in the slightest. There is absolutely no reason to think that Stover or Lucas wouldn't have included such pertinent information in the film or novel, if that were really the case.

Based on what I saw on screen, and read: Mace legitimately defeated Sidious (who didn't appear to be holding back) in their saber fight. It was only when Anakin got there that Sidious (who was already disarmed and downed) began faking being weak.

Originally posted by Merlyn
I see where you are coming from but I can't agree. Neither the film or the novel depicted Sidious holding back during the lightsaber fight in the slightest. There is absolutely no reason to think that Stover or Lucas wouldn't have included such pertinent information in the film or novel, if that were really the case.

Based on what I saw on screen, and read: Mace legitimately defeated Sidious (who didn't appear to be holding back) in their saber fight. It was only when Anakin got there that Sidious (who was already disarmed and downed) began faking being weak.

I agree with this.

You are right, my opinion means nothing. Your opinion also means nothing. And this sounds an awful lot like an opinion.



Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Alright truejedi: After carefully re-reading the RotS novelization version of the battle between Mace Windu and Darth Sidious, I have to say that I can see where you're coming from in regards to your stance on the matter. However, with that being said, it appears that Mace - via Shatterpoint - traces the fautline back to Anakin standing in the doorway (apparently frozen in fear). Mace (sensing this fear, thinking it to be Sids') directs the battle to the window ledge. Mace then uses this fear against Sids to, well, slow him down, therefore allowing him the opportunity to disarm Sids. Either way, whether it was Anakin's fear or Sidious' that Mace was sensing, it would seem that Shatterpoint is what played the key role at this point. In the end, the scene leaves some room for interpretation (bad writing maybe?). Let me know what you think.

BTW, why would you ask someone what they THINK, if opinions mean nothing to you?

Quit being a smartass.

Originally posted by Merlyn
I see where you are coming from but I can't agree. Neither the film or the novel depicted Sidious holding back during the lightsaber fight in the slightest. There is absolutely no reason to think that Stover or Lucas wouldn't have included such pertinent information in the film or novel, if that were really the case.
I believe either you misunderstand me or I'm not being clear. When I say Sidious is going all out, that means with both the saber and the force. I DO believe Sidious was going all out with the saber against Mace, but he was hardly using his vast force reserves and power to take him down, hence not going all out. He was definitely using both against Yoda, and he was a blur against Luke.


The legitimacy isn't in question because Mace provided to be a superior saber fighter. The only thing in question was regarding Palpatine going all out, which he most certainly wasn't.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The only thing in question was regarding Palpatine going all out, which he most certainly wasn't.

Why can you be so certain of that when there isn't any proof of it? You don't think Mace was pressing his attack so hard with sabers that Sidious knew it would have been a fatal mistake to drop his guard to utilize the force?

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Why can you be so certain of that when there isn't any proof of it? You don't think Mace was pressing his attack so hard with sabers that Sidious knew it would have been a fatal mistake to drop his guard to utilize the force?

How can I be so certain? Because if Sidious was going all out, Mace wouldn't have had survived. Vaapad and Shatterpoint only go so far. It's plainly obvious that Sidious underestimated Windu and paid the price for it. But I don't think that he felt death approaching just yet. I think he definitely felt that when he fought Yoda or Luke and it was pretty obvious that he went all out against those two.

DS is begging the question.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
DS is begging the question.

Not exactly but ok. I guess you missed all those "deductions" to desperately come up with some kind of fallacy? I understand.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
How can I be so certain? Because if Sidious was going all out, Mace wouldn't have had survived. Vaapad and Shatterpoint only go so far. It's plainly obvious that Sidious underestimated Windu and paid the price for it. But I don't think that he felt death approaching just yet. I think he definitely felt that when he fought Yoda or Luke and it was pretty obvious that he went all out against those two.

Claim: Sidious was not going all out on Mace Windu in their battle during RotS (the one where Sidious was put on his ass and then suffered severe facial scarring).
Evidence: If Sidious was going all out, Mace wouldn't have had survived.

Claim: Sidious was not going all out and then got put on his ass.
Evidence: If Sidious had been going all out Mace would not have put Sidious on his ass.

Claim: Mace defeated Sidious because Sidious was holding back.
Evidence: Mace could not have defeated Sidious if Sidious had not been holding back.




Textbook.

Oh, and your "deductions?" "Vaapad and Shatterpoint only go so far" is a claim, not a deduction. "It's plainly obvious" is a claim, not a deduction. The key phrase in that whole post was "I think."

You are the Most Helpful Member, Red Nemesis.

all this speculation is very interesting, but then it butts up against the fact that even Mace's deduction about the fear coming from Anakin is ALSO non-canon since Anakin was NOT in the room during the saber portion of their fight.

To be completely honest, almost that entire sequence is non-canon. The dialogue is wrong, the placement of Anakin in the room the entire time is wrong. Anakin's entrance into the room (also accompanied by dialogue in the ROTS novelization) is also completely non-canon. In fact, from the very beginning, the part about the recording, which was then cut off is also wrong.

Here is the clip:

See how much of this matches with the novelization. Not much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiq_xjrB4U

anakin enters afterwards, and non of the diologue from the book actually takes place. Its all completely non-canon really.


So what we are left with is GL telling us that Mace overpowered SIdious, and we have Mace kicking Sidious in the face. Sidious can't fake that. Talk about making sense, in this case, it makes much more sense to take it at face value than to speculate your wet dreams.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Claim: Sidious was not going all out on Mace Windu in their battle during RotS (the one where Sidious was put on his ass and then suffered severe facial scarring).
Evidence: If Sidious was going all out, Mace wouldn't have had survived.

Or more appropriately, the evidence would be Palpatine's fight against Luke or Yoda, where he was using his force abilities. In his fight against Mace, he briefly used force lightning at the end.
Ding! One for me!


Or more appropriately once again, Sidious wasn't using the full range of force powers that he possesses, ergo he wasn't going all out. Ding! Two for me!


And we come to your third such example, which mirrors the other two and by default, automatically scores points for me because repeating myself a 3rd time would be inefficient. Try again RH, or better yet, read up on your logical fallacies before you try to impress your superiors.

So what we are left with is GL telling us that Mace overpowered SIdious, and we have Mace kicking Sidious in the face. Sidious can't fake that. Talk about making sense, in this case, it makes much more sense to take it at face value than to speculate your wet dreams.

Don't think anybody can claim Sidious faked anything in that fight.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Don't think anybody can claim Sidious faked anything in that fight.
so we do agree then? Now I am confused. I thought you were on the other side and all that.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Or more appropriately, the evidence would be Palpatine's fight against Luke or Yoda, where he was using his force abilities. In his fight against Mace, he briefly used force lightning at the end.
Ding! One for me!

If you were a expert archer, and there was someone slashing at you with a sword, within distance, would you rather defend yourself with your own sword, or try and shoot him with your bow and leave yourself vulnerable in the process?

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
If you were a expert archer, and there was someone slashing at you with a sword, within distance, would you rather defend yourself with your own sword, or try and shoot him with your bow and leave yourself vulnerable in the process?

Uh, I'd use one of my many dark side powers to subdue the black man with a saber. It's blatantly obvious that Sidious was overconfident. Here's a hint: He went up against 4 Council Members!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Uh, I'd use one of my many dark side powers to subdue the black man with a saber. It's blatantly obvious that Sidious was overconfident. Here's a hint: He went up against 4 Council Members!

So you don't think it at all possible that Sidious just wasn't able to use his dark side powers because Mace was trying to kill him and he never got the opportunity?

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
So you don't think it at all possible that Sidious just wasn't able to use his dark side powers because Mace was trying to kill him and he never got the opportunity?

As a master tactician who brought the attack to 4 council members? No, I don't think it's possible. It's more likely that he thought he could win, and then lost, only to feign weakness when Anakin arrived.

lol, DS is just messing with you VR, he knows as well as you do that it takes concentration to use the force, concetration that Sidious could not afford when he was matched in a lightsaber battle as intense and fast-moving as that one was. We don't see anyone using the force anywhere during a duel unless they get a second to break in the action. Sidious never got that with Mace.

Originally posted by truejedi
lol, DS is just messing with you VR, he knows as well as you do that it takes concentration to use the force, concetration that Sidious could not afford when he was matched in a lightsaber battle as intense and fast-moving as that one was. We don't see anyone using the force anywhere during a duel unless they get a second to break in the action. Sidious never got that with Mace.

Concentration? You mean like the concentration Sidious displayed when he fought for his life against a stronger opponent (yoda)? Concentration that enabled him to gain higher ground and unleash a barrage of offensive maneuvers?

he had to get that higher ground (which the script says he gains because Yoda GAVE it to him (proving once again that Jedi make stupid tactical decisions) He does not unleash his force attack on Yoda while crossing blades. that should be obvious.

Originally posted by truejedi
he had to get that higher ground (which the script says he gains because Yoda GAVE it to him (proving once again that Jedi make stupid tactical decisions) He does not unleash his force attack on Yoda while crossing blades. that should be obvious.

What the script says is irrelevant. The original script said Yoda disarmed him. Also, you blame stupid tactical errors on the Jedi, while not giving Sidious his due as a master tactician. The same tactics that were absent in his fight against Windu. So either he could do NOTHING against Windu, or he was overconfident and was overpowered before he had a chance to unleash his full arsenal. I'm going with the latter.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What the script says is irrelevant. The original script said Yoda disarmed him. Also, you blame stupid tactical errors on the Jedi, while not giving Sidious his due as a master tactician. The same tactics that were absent in his fight against Windu. So either he could do NOTHING against Windu, or he was overconfident and was overpowered before he had a chance to unleash his full arsenal. I'm going with the latter.

You think you can back that up?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
You think you can back that up?

I uh just did with that post. You're welcome to look at the source itself. Here, I'll help you. It's called Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith. It's a DVD that's currently in circulation so I think you'll have no problem finding it.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What the script says is irrelevant. The original script said Yoda disarmed him. Also, you blame stupid tactical errors on the Jedi, while not giving Sidious his due as a master tactician. The same tactics that were absent in his fight against Windu. So either he could do NOTHING against Windu, or he was overconfident and was overpowered before he had a chance to unleash his full arsenal. I'm going with the latter.
What the script says is irrelevant?

Well, we obviously can't continue this discussion then.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What the script says is irrelevant. The original script said Yoda disarmed him.

Did you really just discredit something and then in the very next sentance use it as a source? Your tactics are confusing.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Did you really just discredit something and then in the very next sentance use it as a source? Your tactics are confusing.

I wasn't aware that the script=the 3rd movie.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I uh just did with that post. You're welcome to look at the source itself. Here, I'll help you. It's called Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith. It's a DVD that's currently in circulation so I think you'll have no problem finding it.

No, I mean that ass.

Back it up.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I wasn't aware that the script=the 3rd movie.

Sorry, when you said "script" I thought you were talking about a "script". I have no idea how I came up with that conclusion. My apologies.

the script is canon unless it directly contradicts the movie. You know the drill DS. If the scripts says Yoda disarmed sidious, then walked away, and we see nothing that directly contradicts it.... well, sorry, but I didn't make the rules. IF you intend to have another stupid discussion about the well-known well-established rules of canon, I simply won't. You are playing ignorant on the subject, and its annoying.

Originally posted by truejedi
You are... ignorant... and its annoying.

Well said.

Originally posted by truejedi
the script is canon unless it directly contradicts the movie. You know the drill DS. If the scripts says Yoda disarmed sidious, then walked away, and we see nothing that directly contradicts it.... well, sorry, but I didn't make the rules. IF you intend to have another stupid discussion about the well-known well-established rules of canon, I simply won't. You are playing ignorant on the subject, and its annoying.

What does the script say? Better yet, the script seems to be Episode 3. We see Sidious gaining the high ground. I for one would prefer to believe Sidious was disarmed, but knowing Sidious' superior tactics and Yoda's naivety, I'm inclined to go with the logical deduction. Please don't lecture me about canon when you're trying to deviate from the movies.

Have you WATCHED episode 3? Yoda and Sidious are crossing sabers, riding on the Senate podium. The fight cuts away to Anakin and Kenobi, and when it returns Sidious is high above Yoda UNARMED and throwing senate pods.

It gels perfectly with the script. What is your argument here McBeefy?

Originally posted by truejedi
Have you WATCHED episode 3? Yoda and Sidious are crossing sabers, riding on the Senate podium. The fight cuts away to Anakin and Kenobi, and when it returns Sidious is high above Yoda UNARMED and throwing senate pods.

It gels perfectly with the script. What is your argument here McBeefy?

What SCRIPT? Did you get your hands on a script nobody else did? How about the idea that Sidious manages to force some distance, put away his lightsaber, and start throwing pods at Yoda? My argument is that he was going all out against Yoda, while he wasn't going all out against Mace because he was overconfident and it nearly cost him.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What SCRIPT? Did you get your hands on a script nobody else did? How about the idea that Sidious manages to force some distance, put away his lightsaber, and start throwing pods at Yoda? My argument is that he was going all out against Yoda, while he wasn't going all out against Mace because he was overconfident and it nearly cost him.

The screenplay DS? Snap out of it.



http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

Originally posted by truejedi
The screenplay DS? Snap out of it.



http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

I don't know how valid that is in terms of the movie. But I do know that its validity is definitely contestable after reading that Yoda jumped to a lower pod instead of delivering the killing blow. That's just moronic.

Not to mention, the dialog isn't even similar.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't know how valid that is in terms of the movie. But I do know that its validity is definitely contestable after reading that Yoda jumped to a lower pod instead of delivering the killing blow. That's just moronic.

Not to mention, the dialog isn't even similar.

The dialogue isn't similar because it definitly fits inside the part of the fight where Kenobi was fighting anakin. As i said, I'm not going back over the rules of canon. Whether something is moronic or not doesn't even begin to matter in deciding what is canon,and you KNOW that.

^ Yeah, no. Yoda letting Palpatine go contradicts the movie. And the novelization. And the rest of the script. And those other supplementary canon sources.

Or did Yoda not say "DESTROY the Sith, we must"?

JT
Oh gee, wut da hell wuz I thnkin? Mace musta just said fuk it, right? Yes, he couldn't block it with his stub, but he wasn't "holding back" either, as was Sidious (per yer word). You know damn well that this is a completely different situation, and to compare the two is... well... either a game, or outright foolishness. One can't be "overpowered" if he/she/it is holding back. However, Sidious was indeed, "overpowered" (per GL). I'll be back later, as I have sum bbq to look after. Yummmm.

So, what you're saying is... you have no proof or anything resembling evidence to suggest that Windu, at that point, was making a concerted effort to defend himself?

I didn't think so. Especially since the databank flat out says Windu's defenses were stripped. As in he had no defenses. Which means he could not defend himself.

Don't you ever damage my reputation by speaking to me directly again.

Originally posted by Gideon
So, what you're saying is... you have no proof or anything resembling evidence to suggest that Windu, at that point, was making a concerted effort to defend himself?

I didn't think so. Especially since the databank flat out says Windu's defenses were stripped. As in he had no defenses. Which means he could not defend himself.

Don't you ever damage my reputation by speaking to me directly again.

Really? Watch the movie again. Mace clearly tries to hold his balance right before he is hurled out the window. This indicates struggle - attempted preservation of life.

Also, saying his defenses were stripped doesn't = someone being "overpowered" because they weren't going full speed.

And your defeat came much easier than I had previously anticipated. You, my friend, are WAY overrated.

I am pleased with KMC's Ignore Function.

Originally posted by Gideon
I am pleased with KMC's Ignore Function.

Your retreat and elusive behavior does not surprise me.

Why do people persist in speaking to me when they've been put on Ignore? It must be my charisma and celebrity status.

Fear not, dear servant; when you learn to provide some specific evidence to support your claims instead of, well, what you've been doing, then you might earn your place at my feet again.

Don't be such a pretentious, self-disillusioned, wimp. I told you where the evidence can be found. It's now up to you to get off your butt and find it. Like I said before Gid, you're overrated. I used to hold you in somewhat high esteem, but that's changed. I've watched you evade the critical points of debate after debate. Don't be so evasive Gid. Address the issues.

Wow, I didn't think you'd actually respond to that. You people and your fragile egos.

Edit: When you make something of a valid point besides WINDU LOST HIS BALANCE ERGO HE WAS MAKING A CONCERTED EFFORT EVEN THOUGH THE CANON DATABANK SAYS OTHERWISE, I'll gladly take you off Ignore to intellectually curbstomp you.

I don't waste my time with those who make worthless points. I don't care if you disagree, which is why I debate with TJ and Galan (who don't agree with me), but you have to be smart about it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Wow, I didn't think you'd actually respond to that. You people and your fragile egos.

Edit: When you make something of a valid point besides WINDU LOST HIS BALANCE ERGO HE WAS MAKING A CONCERTED EFFORT EVEN THOUGH THE CANON DATABANK SAYS OTHERWISE, I'll gladly take you off Ignore to intellectually curbstomp you.

I don't waste my time with those who make worthless points. I don't care if you disagree, which is why I debate with TJ and Galan (who don't agree with me), but you have to be smart about it.

Wow!! I feel sorry for you.

Once again: Mace being disarmed and thrown from a window DOES NOT = one being "overpowered" because they weren't going all out against another combatant.

Address the issue.

^ Post two times after this post as a sign you've made a credible argument and I'll take you off Ignore.

Let me know when you decide to address the issue at hand. I'll be back on later, as I have a things to do.

^ That was just once. Twice, please.

Hey! Is there are way for you to take me off of ignore? Or would you want me to concede that argument or something?

Gideon, your ignore function has never done you any good. You have posted after every single post an ignored member has posted to you.

Yoda didn't let Sidious go so much as make a horrible tactical error. (retreating to a lower pod at a STUPID time) THAT fits within the script AND the movie AND previous information about Yoda.

Your move.

Out of curiosity does any part of the script conclusively tell us the exact positions of Yoda and Palpatine just as Yoda jumps down to a lower senate pod? If he wasn't in a position that would grant him an almost definite victory over Sidious then the change in positioning isn't necessarily a poor or nonsensical decision.

TJ
Gideon, your ignore function has never done you any good.

According to a G-canon source, it has.



For insidiously clever reasons!





Are these things mutually exclusive?



No, it doesn't. First off, Yoda has demonstrated consistent skill as a tactician in both the movies (he successfully defeats the Confederacy on Geonosis and Kashyyyk) and Expanded Universe. Second, Yoda's stated intentions were to DESTROY the Sith. The Sith he intended to destroy? Palpatine.

Ergo it makes zero sense and completely contradicts the movie for Yoda to disarm Sidious, have him in a position to kill him, and then to release him for no reason.

It contradicts the movie, the rest of the screenplay, the novelization, and the other canon sources, ergo it is not canon.



Checkmate.

Lol Gideon it's hilarious when you respond to my posts which you refuse to read since you have me on ignore thinking that I'm getting all worked up and completely failing in guessing what I actually posted.

But then again, you're probably going to think that I'm getting mad at you, and are going to make a post responding to this one.

^ You may post three times in a row to be considered for removal from my Ignore List.