Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

If these Mutants had a battle royale who would be the last Mutant standing?

*White Phoenix of the Crown Jean Grey
*Thanos
*MadJimJaspers
*Franklin Richards
*Hope Summers
*Shaman Nate Grey

and of Course I forgot Mutants, but no one seems to care enough to reply. right on

1: Franklin Richards (full potential)
2: MJJ
3: Jean Grey as WPOTC
4: Hope Summers (asuming she is the Phoenix too)
5: Thanos
6: Nate Grey

Anyway Squirrel Girl beats them all blindfolded and with both hands tied behind her back

lol.
Where does HOM Wanda fit in on the list?

Originally posted by RyanAutumns
lol.
Where does HOM Wanda fit in on the list?

At the top.

Squirrel Girl still oneshots her 10/10 of course.

SG >>> TOAA > PR Beyonder = PR Molecule Man > HOM Wanda > Pretty much everyone else

1 WPOTC
2 MJJ
3 Franklin Richards
4 Shaman Nate Grey
5 Thanos
6 Hope

A Phoenix avatar is stated on panel to be the ultimate mutation. There is no greater mutant power than telekinetic godhood. Forget all of this talk of potential, all we can go by is on panel feats.

Thanos is the weakest.

Originally posted by GGS
Thanos is the weakest.

Possibly, maybe even likely, but we havent seen enough showings from Hope yet to confirm shes definitely above him currently.

Originally posted by Mshinu
At the top.

Squirrel Girl still oneshots her 10/10 of course.

SG >>> TOAA > PR Beyonder = PR Molecule Man > HOM Wanda > Pretty much everyone else

Truer words have never been written.

She is simply the most kickass mutant.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Truer words have never been written.

She is simply the most kickass mutant.

Rubbish. The Phoenix is stated to be the ultimate mutation. As a mutant you cant get past the Phoenix stage.

Wanda can manipulate the laws of causality to create realities of her choosing however the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang which makes reality possible in the 1st place.

The White Crown Phoenix materialized the entire 616 universe within her palm atom by atom. It was nothing to her and yet someone who changes the face of reality within that little globe Phoenix casually has in her hand is somehow greater? Come on now

Phoenix would just atomize reality leaving Wanda in a void and therefore powerless with no reality to manipulate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rubbish. The Phoenix is stated to be the ultimate mutation.

Well, they were wrong

SG smothers the phoenix fire with her tail and forces Jean to eat her nuts.

Wanda turns PF into madame Cluck.
http://www.freewebs.com/disneymovies01/clara%20cluck.JPG

Originally posted by Mshinu
Well, they were wrong

SG smothers the phoenix fire with her tail and forces Jean to eat her nuts.

Wanda turns PF into madame Cluck.
http://www.freewebs.com/disneymovies01/clara%20cluck.JPG

Thats assuming Wanda could manipulate something so fundamental as the sentient Big Bang which brought reality into place.

Wandas House of M warp was brought into place with the aid of Pietro for moral support and Professor Xavier whose telepathy enabled Wanda to find out what peoples innermost desires were and try and recreate them in her HOM reality. So she didnt do it alone.

Furthermore her reality warp was paper thin, because as Layla Miller showed on panel, 616 could still be seen through the veil of House Of M.

So not only is Phoenix more powerful, with stronger on panel feats. But her empowered avatars could react at superhuman rates, faster than the very human reaction times of Wanda. Wanda gets decimated straight up, or as aforementioned Phoenix places Wanda in a void leaving her powerless

* why is Thanos included in the list?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats assuming Wanda could manipulate something so fundamental as the sentient Big Bang which brought reality into place.

Wandas House of M warp was brought into place with the aid of Pietro for moral support and Professor Xavier whose telepathy enabled Wanda to find out what peoples innermost desires were and try and recreate them in her HOM reality. So she didnt do it alone.

Furthermore her reality warp was paper thin, because as Layla Miller showed on panel, 616 could still be seen through the veil of House Of M.

So not only is Phoenix more powerful, with stronger on panel feats. But her empowered avatars could react at superhuman rates, faster than the very human reaction times of Wanda. Wanda gets decimated straight up, or as aforementioned Phoenix places Wanda in a void leaving her powerless

You are dreaming, abstracts far more powerful than PF were nothing more than playthings to Wanda. Her powers extended to an omniversial scale, treathening even ascension.

(Which is a joke next to SG`s agility and wits ofc)

Originally posted by Mshinu
You are dreaming, abstracts far more powerful than PF were nothing more than playthings to Wanda. Her powers extended to an omniversial scale, treathening even ascension.

(Which is a joke next to SG`s agility and wits ofc)

Abstracts like who?

I think you need to do a bit of research into what the Phoenix Force is and what the abstracts are my friend

The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang made sentient. The abstracts such as Eternity, Infinity, Order, Chaos, Love, Hate etc are derivative of the Big Bang.

Do not let low showings by avatars fool you into under-estimating the Force.

The most powerful avatar held 616 in the palm of her hand after materializing it there atom by atom. The abstracts are just mere aspects of 616. Unless we're talking LT here, they are no comparison.

Wanda warped the 616 universe with the aid of Pietro and Professor Xavier to co-ordinate her efforts.

As shown by Layla Miller it was an amateur and incomplete job because it was just a thin veil through which 616 could still be seen.

The warping of 616 and the subsequent "No More Mutants" spell are Wandas feats. Impressive but merely universe scale feats and nothing in comparison to Jean Grey materializing the universes in the palm of her hand. Wanda and the abstracts in relation to that would just be ants in a sandbox.

As for this so called omniversal talk and threatening the ascension, what you are referring to is the Chaos Wave. The Chaos Wave as stated in Uncanny X-men 462 was TRIGGERED by Wandas warping of 616. It was not a direct creation of Wandas, it was not created, maintained and directed by Wanda. Therefore all the damage it did cannot be categorized as feats for Wanda. It was merely the leakover of Wandas reality warping through a tear in the dimensional wall of 616. There was no mention of it in the main title, it featured in a side story as it had nothing directly to do with Wanda.

Also the Chaos Wave only caused so much damage not because of any sheer power inherent to itself, but because the dimensional tear it leaked through was a doorway to Otherworld located at Excaliburs lighthouse as shown on panel. Otherworld is thanks to the Phoenix Force is connected to all realities through an energy matrix that the Phoenix established throughout the multiverse. It is a keystone of reality. So when the Chaos Wave leaked through the tear at Excaliburs lighthouse and collided with Otherworld, its compromised the structural integrity of the energy matrix causing a number of realities to collapse. If i hammered at a bridges keystone i could make the bridge collapse. Could i with as small an effort make the bridge collapse by striking it in other areas?

Furthermore the Chaos Wave was only a big threat if left unchecked. Much in the same way Jubilee could go around unchecked blowing stuff up and eventually blow up the whole of the States after a time, however we know as shown Jubilee is not unstoppable. Meggan and Excalibur some pretty insignificant characters on the cosmic scale quite easily put an end to the Wave. Just to reiterate, when confronted, it was no big deal, it was only when left to run loose it was a concern.

So just to summarise:

The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang, the firebird avatar is a sentient manifestation of the Big Bang.

The abstracts as stated are derived from the Big Bang whose power brought everything into existence. Including the abstracts.

Wandas greatest feats are an amateur warping of 616 that Layla Miller could see through and the No More Mutants spell.

The Chaos Wave was the leakover of Wandas reality warp through a dimensional weakpoint at Excaliburs Lighthouse.

The Wave was triggered by Wanda unwittingly. It and all it did are not attributable to Wanda in as much as the damage caused by an avalanche my big mouth created could be attributed to me.

The Chaos Wave hit a keystone of reality which was why so much damage was caused.

The Wave was stopped by the sub herald level Meggan from Excalibur.

That will be all

Yawn, so much wrong there I don`t even care to begin rectifying your delusions.
Have fun.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Yawn, so much wrong there I don`t even care to begin rectifying your delusions.
Pitty, i would have liked to hear what was so wrong about GS's "delusions" iyo, 'cause i didn't really find a thing i could righteously label as false. Everything he spoke about, i did see on panel:
- the PF was labeled the living Big Bang (by Reed Richards, if i'm not mistaken)
- the Abstracts are just embodyments of their respective domain in 616 (not counting LT ofcourse)
- PotWC did rewrite 616, holding it in her hands
- Wanda did only warped 616, and that she did superficial
- the Chaos Wave was a side-effect of Wanda's warp, it's been triggered, not been controlled by Wanda (the avalanche comparison was quite fitting)
- etc. etc. etc.
The facts are just that - FACTS. What you make out of it may be written on another page, but GS's reasoning is far from being "delusional".

Originally posted by Mshinu
Yawn, so much wrong there I don`t even care to begin rectifying your delusions.
Have fun.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with current continuity my friend. I can show you numerous on panel references to:

The Phoenix Force being called the Big Bang

The abstracts stemming from the Big Bang

The Phoenix Force Force being both the end end and the beginning of the the universal life cycle.

I can also show you on panel where its stated plain as day that the Chaos Wave was merely triggered by Wandas reality warp.

That Chaos Wave did so much damage because it hit a keystone of reality, not because of any massive inherent power.

If you would like i can also highlight the scenes where Meggan stopped it

You either have not read enough on the characters youre debating about, youre suffering from poor recollection, or you have misinterpreted. Dont make that my problem. Read again.

Originally posted by wannabe
Pitty, i would have liked to hear what was so wrong about GS's "delusions" iyo, 'cause i didn't really find a thing i could righteously label as false. Everything he spoke about, i did see on panel:
- the PF was labeled the living Big Bang (by Reed Richards, if i'm not mistaken)
- the Abstracts are just embodyments of their respective domain in 616 (not counting LT ofcourse)
- PotWC did rewrite 616, holding it in her hands
- Wanda did only warped 616, and that she did superficial
- the Chaos Wave was a side-effect of Wanda's warp, it's been triggered, not been controlled by Wanda (the avalanche comparison was quite fitting)
- etc. etc. etc.
The facts are just that - FACTS. What you make out of it may be written on another page, but GS's reasoning is far from being "delusional".

I think, White Phoenix of the Crown Jean Grey is not being an omega level mutant, though she is the most powerful among mentioned.

The Phoenix is a cosmic entity and did not make Jean omega in the first place. Please do correct me if i'm wrong with my opinion.

Originally posted by RLAAMJR.
I think, White Phoenix of the Crown Jean Grey is not being an omega level mutant, though she is the most powerful among mentioned.

The Phoenix is a cosmic entity and did not make Jean omega in the first place. Please do correct me if i'm wrong with my opinion.

It was established within the New X-men series about 6 years back that Jean Grey is a Phoenix because that is the pinnacle of her mutation, to wield the Phoenix power. The Phoenix isn't just something that comes and possesses Jean Grey, its a part of her genetics to be connected with the Force.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was established within the New X-men series about 6 years back that Jean Grey is a Phoenix because that is the pinnacle of her mutation, to wield the Phoenix power. The Phoenix isn't just something that comes and possesses Jean Grey, its a part of her genetics to be connected with the Force.


But a lot has been able to connect to the phoenix force. Besides, the phoenix entity is still a different entity and without it, Jean grey wouldn't be that powerful.


Some cosmic beings have amplified and even added powers on some mutants.

* correct me if wrong, but as far as i recall, even without PF, Jean Grey was stated to have a potential so surpass Xavier's level (in telepathy) and her telekinesis is very strong too... or is it just stated because PF is already residing in her? oh, whatever!

Originally posted by RLAAMJR.
But a lot has been able to connect to the phoenix force. Besides, the phoenix entity is still a different entity and without it, Jean grey wouldn't be that powerful.


Some cosmic beings have amplified and even added powers on some mutants.

What you dont seem to be understanding is there is a difference between simply being possessed by the Phoenix Force and it being your mutant ability to tap into the Phoenix Force.

Jean Grey always has a connection with the Force because it is in her genetics to do so. Jean Grey always has Phoenix potential, however she doesnt always manifest Phoenix powers because she doesnt always have Phoenix work to do so they lie dormant. Thats what was established in the New X-men run 2003 to 2004 and further supported in the Endsong book.

To be a true Phoenix like Jean or Rachel as opposed to being temporarily just possessed by it,(like Emma Frost and the Cuckoos) it is part of your mutant ability at times of crisis to access your Phoenix potential. Phoenix potential is as stated on panel "the ultimate mutation".

Having the ability to telekinetically control every atom that makes up the 616 universe makes her beyond the abstracts who are just aspects of the universe she can mould like putty and beyond a universal scale reality manipulator like Wanda who granted can create just about anything she can imagine within a universe, but thats basically just giving an already existing reality a new coat of paint, putting a new theme in place and within a reality. A Phoenix goes much further than that and controls the fundamental building blocks of reality, its very atoms and she can do so with the universe in the palm of her hand because she operates on a much higher level of existence.

Originally posted by peejayd
* correct me if wrong, but as far as i recall, even without PF, Jean Grey was stated to have a potential so surpass Xavier's level (in telepathy) and her telekinesis is very strong too... or is it just stated because PF is already residing in her? oh, whatever!

Its Jean Greys mutant ability to wield the Phoenix Force. She has vast psionic powers that have "Phoenix potential". So she's always a psi of the 1st order and on average was second only to Xavier in psi talent. However when she taps into her Phoenix potential, she's the greatest psi power in existence.

Wanda easily. She actually smokes all of them mentioned in the poll combined.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Wanda easily. She actually smokes all of them mentioned in the poll combined.

Not in the slightest bro. Come on Xp you know better than that.

It seems in my long absence youve been corrupted. I typed a long post in this thread about why she has been overrated. Read it

I did read it and I did vote for Jean in this poll in this thread, but because there is no Wanda.

Wanda was just too much. As I remember, she didn't use Chaos Wave to put Omniverse back with a thought. And seeing how pretty no one was match against her power. And narrator simply putting that in that time no one was match against her. And then seeing Galactus being toyed just like a bug. And then Omniverse going out and putted together again by her.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I did read it and I did vote for Jean in this poll in this thread, but because there is no Wanda.

Wanda was just too much. As I remember, she didn't use Chaos Wave to put Omniverse back with a thought. And seeing how pretty no one was match against her power. And narrator simply putting that in that time no one was match against her. And then seeing Galactus being toyed just like a bug. And then Omniverse going out and putted together again by her.

This previous post of mine deals with all of your assertions Xp and quite conclusively at that:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Abstracts like who?

I think you need to do a bit of research into what the Phoenix Force is and what the abstracts are my friend

The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang made sentient. The abstracts such as Eternity, Infinity, Order, Chaos, Love, Hate etc are derivative of the Big Bang.

Do not let low showings by avatars fool you into under-estimating the Force.

The most powerful avatar held 616 in the palm of her hand after materializing it there atom by atom. The abstracts are just mere aspects of 616. Unless we're talking LT here, they are no comparison.

Wanda warped the 616 universe with the aid of Pietro and Professor Xavier to co-ordinate her efforts.

As shown by Layla Miller it was an amateur and incomplete job because it was just a thin veil through which 616 could still be seen.

The warping of 616 and the subsequent "No More Mutants" spell are Wandas feats. Impressive but merely universe scale feats and nothing in comparison to Jean Grey materializing the universes in the palm of her hand. Wanda and the abstracts in relation to that would just be ants in a sandbox.

As for this so called omniversal talk and threatening the ascension, what you are referring to is the Chaos Wave. The Chaos Wave as stated in Uncanny X-men 462 was TRIGGERED by Wandas warping of 616. It was not a direct creation of Wandas, it was not created, maintained and directed by Wanda. Therefore all the damage it did cannot be categorized as feats for Wanda. It was merely the leakover of Wandas reality warping through a tear in the dimensional wall of 616. There was no mention of it in the main title, it featured in a side story as it had nothing directly to do with Wanda.

Also the Chaos Wave only caused so much damage not because of any sheer power inherent to itself, but because the dimensional tear it leaked through was a doorway to Otherworld located at Excaliburs lighthouse as shown on panel. Otherworld is thanks to the Phoenix Force is connected to all realities through an energy matrix that the Phoenix established throughout the multiverse. It is a keystone of reality. So when the Chaos Wave leaked through the tear at Excaliburs lighthouse and collided with Otherworld, its compromised the structural integrity of the energy matrix causing a number of realities to collapse. If i hammered at a bridges keystone i could make the bridge collapse. Could i with as small an effort make the bridge collapse by striking it in other areas?

Furthermore the Chaos Wave was only a big threat if left unchecked. Much in the same way Jubilee could go around unchecked blowing stuff up and eventually blow up the whole of the States after a time, however we know as shown Jubilee is not unstoppable. Meggan and Excalibur some pretty insignificant characters on the cosmic scale quite easily put an end to the Wave. Just to reiterate, when confronted, it was no big deal, it was only when left to run loose it was a concern.

So just to summarise:

The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang, the firebird avatar is a sentient manifestation of the Big Bang.

The abstracts as stated are derived from the Big Bang whose power brought everything into existence. Including the abstracts.

Wandas greatest feats are an amateur warping of 616 that Layla Miller could see through and the No More Mutants spell.

The Chaos Wave was the leakover of Wandas reality warp through a dimensional weakpoint at Excaliburs Lighthouse.

The Wave was triggered by Wanda unwittingly. It and all it did are not attributable to Wanda in as much as the damage caused by an avalanche my big mouth created could be attributed to me.

The Chaos Wave hit a keystone of reality which was why so much damage was caused.

The Wave was stopped by the sub herald level Meggan from Excalibur.

That will be all

Unless you have any new on panel evidence to bring forward then your viewpoints on Wanda just arent correct.

It's just that I disagree with you this time.

Originally posted by Xplosive
It's just that I disagree with you this time.

You can disagree Xp, but if you dont have conclusive on panel proof to back up your viewpoint, then you cant present t as fact here.

As it stands, Wandas feats were warping 616 and the No More Mutants spell.

Both universal feats which do not even place her above Eternity. Eternity can and has warped reality within his own being.


The Chaos Wave conclusively was not a feat of Wandas. It was triggered by her for sure, but it was not directly created and maintained, so all it did are not attributable to Wanda so referring to it as some justification to hype Wanda up to god like proportions is illogical and non-sensical.

I have explained the Chaos Wave point in more detail in my previous posts in this same thread. Read and understand.

The points are made clearly on panel.

Your opinion to the contrary in light of that, just isnt good enough

Panels of proof have been posted in this forums so many times, that it's really not necessary to post them again.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Panels of proof have been posted in this forums so many times, that it's really not necessary to post them again.

Pages from comics have been posted, youre right, but alongside them misinterpretation. The same misinterpretation that you have swallowed because it is what you want to believe.

I have quite conclusively highlighted exactly why this theory you swallowed is a misinterpretation and instead of picking apart my points and showing they are wrong, you have simply said oh no Wanda beats Phoenix because she wrecked the omniverse. That is despite the fact that i have conclusively highlighted on panel references which show that whilst Wanda triggered the damage, it was not directly caused by her meaning it is no feat of hers.

I also showed why even if the Chaos Wave was directly attributed to her(which it is not) that the wave only caused so much damage because it collided with Otherworld which is a keystone of the structure of reality. That meant with Otherworld compromised, other realities were affected.

NOT through the Wave directly going around collapsing them one by one.

NOT through the wave spreading out across all reality and collapsing a few in one go.

BUT because it hit Otherworld, weakening the structure. TRIGGERING the collapse of others. Its just like a game of Jenga, if you tap the right piece, then you can cause a big section of the whole stack of Jenga pieces to fall.

So your comments about how Galactus and the abstracts were tossed around like nothing is irrelevant. It had nothing directly to do with Wanda. The collision with Otherworld made some of those alternate realities collapse. I explained this:



Xp. Your viewpoint is based on someone elses poor reading of a comic book and you have just swallowed their version. Their version if you properly read the comic and not just look at the pretty pictures, is wrong. There are many statements in the comic that explain exactly why theyre wrong. Read my posts in this thread properly and then read the comic again and then get back to me

I think you are wrong this time. Wanda actually put Omniverse back with a thought, Chaos Wave didn't have anything to do with it.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I think you are wrong this time. Wanda actually put Omniverse back with a thought, Chaos Wave didn't have anything to do with it.

Xp instead of telling me your theories, why dont you refer in detail to these actual feats and what issues they happened in so i can take a look at myself.

Im an avid comic reader and as far as i have seen, the only cosmic scale feats Wanda is responsible for are warping reality in 616 and the "No More Mutants" spell.

Very powerful, nothing that places her above Eternity though. Eternity can warp reality on a universal scale, so can cosmic cubes, so can Celestials and many more.

Reply with either a scan or an issue number and the page this feat is described and shown on and then we can get started

Hope potentially since her powerset is having every single mutant power(Including Wanda) at their maximum. Followed by Wanda.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Hope potentially since her powerset is having every single mutant power(Including Wanda) at their maximum. Followed by Wanda.

Speculation.

That wasnt confirmed anywhere.

Wanda has done nothing greater than universal scale reality manipulation, therefore she is not even beyond Eternity, let alone the White Crown Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Speculation.

That wasnt confirmed anywhere.

Wanda has done nothing greater than universal scale reality manipulation, therefore she is not even beyond Eternity, let alone the White Crown Phoenix.

Hope:
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/9666/93845784.th.jpg


Wanda's "No more mutants" spell effected mutants in other timelines until Hope came along. Her spell the second time round was also more then universal, there's really no arguing anything else if you've been following the X-Men. The entire premise of MC was that there was no more mutants until Hope came along. And only two timelines were depicted having them afterwards (This is of course barring Claremonts Exiles). Regardless her spell effected more then 616.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4417/xfactor24dcp0033tw2.th.jpghttp://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2172/xfactor24dcp0034yc7.th.jpghttp://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8210/xfactor24dcp0035um7.th.jpghttp://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5776/xfactor24dcp0037wg1.th.jpghttp://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8844/xfactor24dcp0038vh6.th.jpghttp://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2398/xfactor24dcp0039it6.th.jpghttp://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9936/xfactor24dcp0040rx2.th.jpghttp://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1125/xfactor24dcp0041ws0.th.jpg

Until some mutant can do what Wanda did, putting and recreatting an Omniverse with a thought, then Wanda stays at the top.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Hope:
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/9666/93845784.th.jpg



Wanda's "No more mutants" spell effected mutants in other timelines until Hope came along. Her spell the second time round was also more then universal, there's really no arguing anything else if you've been following the X-Men. The entire premise of MC was that there was no more mutants until Hope came along. And only two timelines were depicted having them afterwards (This is of course barring Claremonts Exiles). Regardless her spell effected more then 616.


Hope has so far manifested about 5 powers of mutants not particularly significant in the scheme of things. Theres no justification to consider her in threads such as this quite yet. But youre right potentially if her power works as it seems, then she can be one of the most powerful. Isnt it great that shes a Phoenix

Now on to Wanda


Wandas spell was NOT cast directly across the entire multiverse. Wandas spell was applied to 616, however due to the multiversal structure of Marvel, this change to 616 had an effect on alternate future timelines as you've illustrated. Thank you.

The nature of Marvel reality is that you have the core reality that is 616 and from this main timeline alternates spring off:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6594/ff543dcp0003.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

These alternates arise usually from artificial intervention. Attempts to change history from its set path. These alternate realities are branches off of a main trunk, what makes them diverge is an altered event. With that in mind, these alternate realities are the same as 616 or should i say are 616 up until this point of divergence. Wanda didnt simply change an event, she changed the properties of 616. She made the x gene inert. With that in mind, any reality that is truly an alternate reality of 616 would have been affected. That goes without question. If a reality isnt affected by such a wide reaching change to the characteristics of 616 then it is not an alternate reality it is a parallel reality. There is a difference, one Marvel has defined:

Alternate Earth

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1095/marveldeluxeedition1v16.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Parallel Earth

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8972/marveldeluxeedition3v16.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

An alternate reality can refer to a divergent reality and a parallel reality. A parallel universe is unaffected by alterations to 616 and can have different properties and origins. A divergent universe is the mainstream reality up to its point of divergence. As stated, (with the possible exception of misnamed realities), there are no parallel realities within Marvel.

With that in mind, just to reiterate, a change to the characteristics of 616 is going to affect its divergent realities. If it doesnt, they arent divergent. Parallel universes dont exist in Marvel.

The No More Mutants change meant from that point onwards the x gene for the most part was inert. Therefore understandably, alternate or more specifically divergent realities stemming from 616 from this point would be affected by Wandas spell.

NOT a direct multiversal application, but a universal one, that was carried across to alternate realities because of the nature of Marvels multiverse

Once again, divergent realities are 616 up until their point of divergence. So from the moment Wanda applied her spell to 616, any realities which diverged from 616 from that point would by the definition Marvel has given us in multiple publications, be affected by that spell.

That is the very reason why the Endangered species storyline when depicting the realities affected, only referred specifically to future ones:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6493/xfactor02334.th.jpg

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/729/xfactor02335.th.jpg

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/6627/xfactor02336.th.jpg

As shown in X-factor V3 #23 it was future(and therefore after Wandas spell to the present) timelines that were affected. Obviously alternates that diverged prior to Wandas spell would remain unaffected. But as shown in that story Wandas spell affected only 616 and future timelines.

A point which verifies what i said with regards to Wanda applying her spell to 616 and the spell reaching out into the multiverse via divergent timelines diverging from 616 after Wandas spell i.e these future timelines which are the only type of alternates referred to and stated to be affected. Anything else is speculation.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Until some mutant can do what Wanda did, putting and recreatting an Omniverse with a thought, then Wanda stays at the top.

Wanda never did that though.

Thats where you're going wrong X. You have misinterpreted what she did do and what she was responsible for.

Tell me explicitly exactly what you think she did and what on panel feats and statements conclusively support your view and then i'll show you my point

The pinnacle of evolution is a Phoenix. Its has been stated on panel and illustrated by a Phoenix avatar having the greatest feat of any mutant on panel ever.

If people would take the time to properly analyse comic book events then we wouldn't have this confusion. But at the same time i guess these forums would be a very boring place if everyone did that

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hope has so far manifested about 5 powers of mutants not particularly significant in the scheme of things. Theres no justification to consider her in threads such as this quite yet. But youre right potentially if her power works as it seems, then she can be one of the most powerful. Isnt it great that shes a Phoenix

Now on to Wanda


Wandas spell was NOT cast directly across the entire multiverse. Wandas spell was applied to 616, however due to the multiversal structure of Marvel, this change to 616 had an effect on alternate future timelines as you've illustrated. Thank you.

The nature of Marvel reality is that you have the core reality that is 616 and from this main timeline alternates spring off:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6594/ff543dcp0003.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

These alternates arise usually from artificial intervention. Attempts to change history from its set path. These alternate realities are branches off of a main trunk, what makes them diverge is an altered event. With that in mind, these alternate realities are the same as 616 or should i say are 616 up until this point of divergence. Wanda didnt simply change an event, she changed the properties of 616. She made the x gene inert. With that in mind, any reality that is truly an alternate reality of 616 would have been affected. That goes without question. If a reality isnt affected by such a wide reaching change to the characteristics of 616 then it is not an alternate reality it is a parallel reality. There is a difference, one Marvel has defined:

Alternate Earth

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1095/marveldeluxeedition1v16.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Parallel Earth

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8972/marveldeluxeedition3v16.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

An alternate reality can refer to a divergent reality and a parallel reality. A parallel universe is unaffected by alterations to 616 and can have different properties and origins. A divergent universe is the mainstream reality up to its point of divergence. As stated, (with the possible exception of misnamed realities), there are no parallel realities within Marvel.

With that in mind, just to reiterate, a change to the characteristics of 616 is going to affect its divergent realities. If it doesnt, they arent divergent. Parallel universes dont exist in Marvel.

The No More Mutants change meant from that point onwards the x gene for the most part was inert. Therefore understandably, alternate or more specifically divergent realities stemming from 616 from this point would be affected by Wandas spell.

NOT a direct multiversal application, but a universal one, that was carried across to alternate realities because of the nature of Marvels multiverse

Hope is more then a Phoenix. Hope is a collective of all mutants.

That's all well and good and I agree that is one of the things that resulted off her warp but that is not the only thing she did mainly because the realities shown to be affected by Wanda's warp in Endangered Species were nothing like 616. If you take a look at the different versions of Beast we had Sorcerer Supreme Beast, Priest Beast, Giant Beast...those realities did not diverge off 616 after Wanda's wish.

LOL @ who ever voted thanos

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Hope is more then a Phoenix. Hope is a collective of all mutants.

And the Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of all life so its avatars can be pretty much anything and have any power. Further to that point as illustrated in X-men Forever and the New X-men series, the Phoenix Force is a driving force behind evolution with the pinnacle of mutant evolution being a Phoenix. So Hope clearly being linked to the Phoenix makes perfect sense.

As does the name Hope and the way in which she was born. It brings this scene from New X-men 128 to mind:

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7448/newxmen12815.th.jpg

"I am born and consumed in blood and flame and sacrifice. And return. Always coming back.....its how it feels to be the last Hope and to know you'll win against all odds"

Originally posted by ExodusCloak


We dont know how far into the future from the point of divergence these realities were when we were shown glimpses from them. Therefore my point still remains and stands strong.

As Forge said it was just future timelines that were affected after the point that Wanda cast her spell.

So as per the nature of the multiverse, her application of the spell to 616, saw all future timelines that diverged after that spell, affected by it also. That is conclusive because there are no parallel universes in Marvel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And the Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of all life so its avatars can be pretty much anything and have any power. Further to that point as illustrated in X-men Forever and the New X-men series, the Phoenix is a driving force behind evolution with the pinnacle of mutant evolution being a Phoenix. So Hope being linked to the Phoenix makes perfect sense.

Hope is only linked to the PF because she's a mutant voodoo doll. Like I said she's Phoenix and then some. It also explains how she broke Wanda's spell, she has Wanda's power.




Nope who said these realties were in the "relative" future? As Dr. Strange showed Beast it was other realities not linked to 616. Dr. Strange shows him hundreds of other world views of himself.

Red Panther Beast. Sorcerer Supreme Beast. These are all realities which are not closely related to 616. There's no getting around that. Wanda effected other timestreams.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8341/xfactor24page30.th.jpghttp://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9810/xfactor24page31.th.jpg

Also Forge didn't say anything like that apart from his machine not picking up mutants in any of the divergent futures his machine scanned. Just because he fails to mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen especially when we have Dr. Strange actually showing us what happened.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Hope is only linked to the PF because she's a mutant voodoo doll. Like I said she's Phoenix and then some.

Not at all. Shes so powerful because she is a Phoenix. The Phoenix is the driving force of evolution and it is one of its duties to make sure nothing impedes evolution. So the birth of Hope in blood and flame and sacrifice, the explicit linking to the Force she has had marks her as one. LOL at you calling her Phoenix and then some just because shes not limited to psi powers. Thats ridiculous. The Force is the sum and substance of all life, including all mutants and as a driver and caretaker of evolution it makes perfect sense that in light of Wandas actions it would take action and put avatar on the case to put mutant evolution back on track.




Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nope who said these realties were in the "relative" future? As Dr. Strange showed Beast it was other realities not linked to 616. Dr. Strange shows him hundreds of other world views of himself.

Red Panther Beast. Sorcerer Supreme Beast. These are all realities which are not closely related to 616. There's no getting around that. Wanda effected other timestreams.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8341/xfactor24page30.th.jpghttp://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9810/xfactor24page31.th.jpg

You cant take one chapter from the Endangered Species arc and analyse it and use it in isolation from the other parts ignoring what contributions they have made to the subject.

When showing all of the realities affected by Wandas spell it was just the future timelines depicted.

There are conclusively no parallel universes in Marvel as stated by Marvel, meaning that all the realities shown by Strange diverged after the No More Mutants spell.

If there are differences between the realities depicted and 616 then a feasible explanation is that the glimpses Strange showed were far enough into the future of those timelines to account for those differences. You cannot just decide yourself that they are not related to 616 because that fits in with your misinterpretation of Wandas feats.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all. Shes so powerful because she is a Phoenix. The Phoenix is the driving force of evolution and it is one of its duties to make sure nothing impedes evolution. So the birth of Hope in blood and flame and sacrifice, the explicit linking to the Force she has had marks her as one. LOL at you calling her Phoenix and then some just because shes not limited to psi powers. Thats ridiculous. The Force is the sum and substance of all life, including all mutants and as a driver and caretaker of evolution it makes perfect sense that in light of Wandas actions it would take action and put avatar on the case to put mutant evolution back on track.

Your assumption is that I'm calling her Phoenix and then some just because she's not limited to psi powers. I'm calling her PF and then some because it's stated that she's the PF and then some. She's a bigger deux ex machina then any of the PF hosts.

Also I'd love to hear your thoughts on Phoenix Ink, Phoenix Dust & UXM First Class.



Again as I stated in my previous post, Forge showed us that future timelines were effected he never once stated that other timestreams weren't. Forge was looking for hope for his reality (616). Dr. Strange showed Beast that it was other timestreams. What do you call the reality Spideryam is from?

Also you need to look at it in context, Beast was learning more and more as the series progressed.

Secondly it's without a doubt that those realties Dr. Strange showed Beast were realities that diverged from 616 before the events of HoM. Mainly because Priest Beast does not have his scientific acumen and his meeting with the inhumans is something that is occuring more or less at the same relative time as 616 Beast meeting with Dr. Strange. Look at what he says to Blackbolt his species is on the verge of extinction.

Also think about what you're saying, do you know how long it would take Beast to become adept enough to take the Sorcerer Supreme mantle? By the time he gained enough knowledge all 200 or something mutants would be dead.

Oh and more evidence is here:
http://img171.imageshack.us/f/xfactor24dcp0038vh6.jpg/

We have Human Beast and Atlantis Fish Beast going through the same trials 616 Beast is going through, meeting with kavita fighting with Dark beast.

So yeah these events are occuring at the same "relative" time as 616 Beast.

If you are really that hung up I suggest you ask Mike Carey whose on fb. But the fact of the matter is Wanda's spell also did not only effect realties that diverged from 616 after the words no more mutants.

Oh and here's strange describing the effects of Wanda's spell thing: "Woven through everything all that there is."

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/1379/uncannyxmen491page32.jpg
http://img212.imageshack.us/f/uncanny491dcp0033iv0.jpg/

Oh and this too Shadow King says all realties:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3061/newexcalibur8page21.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Oh and here's strange describing the effects of Wanda's spell thing: "Woven through everything all that there is."

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/1379/uncannyxmen491page32.jpg
http://img212.imageshack.us/f/uncanny491dcp0033iv0.jpg/

Oh and this too Shadow King says all realties:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3061/newexcalibur8page21.jpg

Well done. Dr. Strange said welded to all there is; someone could argue that he reffered in one universe all that is, whole ONE universe, but Shadow King confirmed it, it was acutally an Omniverse.

Wanda was just too much. We will see about Hope, but for now, Wanda is at the top. It will be hard to top her, especially feat wise.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Your assumption is that I'm calling her Phoenix and then some just because she's not limited to psi powers. I'm calling her PF and then some because it's stated that she's the PF and then some. She's a bigger deux ex machina then any of the PF hosts.

Also I'd love to hear your thoughts on Phoenix Ink, Phoenix Dust & UXM First Class.

What you dont seem to be getting is that when it comes to mutants, you dont get a Phoenix host and then some. The Phoenix Force is the sum of all life, including all mutants, its hosts can have any power they want, can generate any energy, become and do anything they can think of according to their stated power set. Hope was born in the Phoenix way and she manifests the Phoenix energy signature. She may be displaying powers Phoenix hosts dont typically use, but according to their powersets its not beyond them. Just to reiterate, the Force as the sum and substance of all mutants amongst other things could very well empower an avatar in such a way. You do not get a mutant that is literally a Phoenix and then some. There is no bigger energy source in reality than the Big Bang, from which all is powered by and derives.

Did it occur to you that such a reference could refer to the difference from the typical power displays of past Phoenixes? The reference doesnt necessarily mean in terms of power and ability as you have chosen to interpret it, but instead could simply be about the way she works and her role in comparison to the typical Phoenix.

As for Phoenix Ink as stated in the actual issue he was not an actual Phoenix and had no connection to the actual Force whatsoever. His power did its best to duplicate a Force like power in terms of appearance, however he was no Phoenix. Once again as stated in the actual issue.

Phoenix Dust? You'll have to be more specific.



Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Again as I stated in my previous post, Forge showed us that future timelines were effected he never once stated that other timestreams weren't. Forge was looking for hope for his reality (616). Dr. Strange showed Beast that it was other timestreams. What do you call the reality Spideryam is from?

Also you need to look at it in context, Beast was learning more and more as the series progressed.

Secondly it's without a doubt that those realties Dr. Strange showed Beast were realities that diverged from 616 before the events of HoM. Mainly because Priest Beast does not have his scientific acumen and his meeting with the inhumans is something that is occuring more or less at the same relative time as 616 Beast meeting with Dr. Strange. Look at what he says to Blackbolt his species is on the verge of extinction.

Also think about what you're saying, do you know how long it would take Beast to become adept enough to take the Sorcerer Supreme mantle? By the time he gained enough knowledge all 200 or something mutants would be dead.

Oh and more evidence is here:
http://img171.imageshack.us/f/xfactor24dcp0038vh6.jpg/

We have Human Beast and Atlantis Fish Beast going through the same trials 616 Beast is going through, meeting with kavita fighting with Dark beast.

So yeah these events are occuring at the same "relative" time as 616 Beast.

If you are really that hung up I suggest you ask Mike Carey whose on fb. But the fact of the matter is Wanda's spell also did not only effect realties that diverged from 616 after the words no more mutants.

As stated by Marvel, there are NO parallel realities in the Marvel multiverse. That means that all realities you see in Marvel unless they are stated to be from another multiverse, or are minor pocket realities are derivative of 616.

The term multiverse also encompasses time. If Wanda cast her spell in all pasts she would have changed history and we would have a very different 616. We dont.

Wanda cast her spell on the present and this was woven through all alternate future timelines due to the nature of a multiverse. Just like if Galactus ate planet Earth in the next issue of F4, there would be no Earth in any divergent future timelines.

Your only argument against this point is the fact that some characters in the alternate timelines shown by Strange look vastly different or have different occupations. The point is irrelevant. You're making assumptions about the point of time those timelines were at when Strange showed us them.

Strange has only been sorcerer supreme in some part by travelling to other dimensions where time runs at a different rate and spent years of study there before returning to 616 with years worth of knowledge gained in days/weeks by 616 time.

You just do not know how far time is in those glimpses and you dont know what else has happened in those timelines since the point of divergence. However given Marvel has said there are no parallel realities in the multiverse, given all pasts went changed as they would have to be for your theory to be correct, it stands to reason that Wanda made her change to the present and divergent future realities carried the spell with them.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


As stated by Marvel, there are NO parallel realities in the Marvel multiverse. That means that all realities you see in Marvel unless they are stated to be from another multiverse, or are minor pocket realities are derivative of 616.



Marvel Zombies series has other dimensions. And the series after 3 is canon isn't it?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What you dont seem to be getting is that when it comes to mutants, you dont get a Phoenix host and then some. The Phoenix Force is the sum of all life, including all mutants, its hosts can have any power they want, can generate any energy, become and do anything they can think of according to their stated power set. Hope was born in the Phoenix way and she manifests the Phoenix energy signature. She may be displaying powers Phoenix hosts dont typically use, but according to their powersets its not beyond them. Just to reiterate, the Force as the sum and substance of all mutants amongst other things could very well empower an avatar in such a way. You do not get a mutant that is literally a Phoenix and then some. There is no bigger energy source in reality than the Big Bang, from which all is powered by and derives.

Did it occur to you that such a reference could refer to the difference from the typical power displays of past Phoenixes? The reference doesnt necessarily mean in terms of power and ability as you have chosen to interpret it, but instead could simply be about the way she works and her role in comparison to the typical Phoenix.

All speculation. Hope has the potential to manifest the PF it's abilities and abilities and feats that the PF has yet to show it can compete with like Wanda's warp. WOTPC had to carry out her Phoenix work from inside the nexus of realities. There is no evidence to show whether or not she could carry out that feat without being in there.




Not necessarily, not if the spell transfered laterally. Which was how Wanda's chaos wave moved IRRC.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9736/90035217.jpg

Instead of coming up with ways to try and explain how "illogical" the panels are why don't you try and explain what is there. Those panels are canon, she warped realities inherently different to 616. And the Shadow Kings words reiterate this.

Also marvels definition of it's timeline changes. According to Bendis Avengers it's circular. So I wouldn't put too much faith in time travel laws that keep getting broken like Kangs law.

Also here's Marvels definition of the Multiverse.

http://img178.imageshack.us/f/altuhb2005streetsamuraifr6.jpg

But again I wouldn't put too much faith in definitions that change depending on the writer.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Marvel Zombies series has other dimensions. And the series after 3 is canon isn't it?

Sorry im missing your point?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
All speculation. Hope has the potential to manifest the PF it's abilities and abilities and feats that the PF has yet to show it can compete with like Wanda's warp.

Its not just speculation that Hope is a Phoenix when she is born in the way of a Phoenix, she manifests its signature and has the appearance of the Forces previous hosts. Nope, thats strong possibility and explicit suggestion from Marvel.

What is not speculation is that the Phoenix Force encompasses all life and it is the driving force behind evolution, what is not speculation is that its hosts can manifest and power and generate any energy they want in any conceivable amount. That is canon. Hope has not displayed any abilities beyond an avatars powerset and given that the Force encompasses all life its inconceivable that she could.

You're interpreting the phrase a Phoenix and then some in a particular way that defies common sense, logic and canon. There are other interpretations that dont require overlooking continuity. Acknowledge them.

As for Phoenix not having any feats beyond Wandas warp, thats simply not true. What do you define as Wandas warp? If you mean the creation of House Of M, then that doesnt even place her above Eternity. Eternity can warp the reality of 616 to his choosing as can many universal artifacts.

If you mean the Chaos Wave, in this thread already i have shown you why it is not a feat of Wanda's so read the thread and if you have any additional evidence to bring forward then do so, but it is conclusively not Wandas direct creation and all the damage it did was as a result of it colliding with Otherworld. All resultant damage was a domino effect, the wave itself never collapsed all of those realities one by one or even simutaneously. It hit the keystone, which compromised the structure, causing some realities to collapse.

The Wave was easily stopped by Excalibur showing you conclusively that the Wave itself was no great cosmic power that was beyond everyones ability to combat. Its threat was that it hit without warning, however it was easily ended. Not a feat of Wandas. Even if it was attributed to her for arguments sake, the way it was stopped and the fact that it was just Meggan who stopped it shows conclusively the Wave when confronted and with warning of its existence, could easily have been halted by a number of characters.

The No More Mutants spell we are debating

Jeans feat of manipulating the universe atoms in the palm of her hand without breaking a sweat, is far beyond Wanda bringing about HOM with the mental co-ordination of Professor Xavier and the emotional support of Pietro. Wanda said she couldnt do so easily in Avengers and that she doubted her ability to keep control.

So you have going all out and manipulating "the theme" of a universe and being out of sight no doubt so as to maintain control of things, versus manipulating all that is the universes right down to its component atoms within the palm of your hand. Compared to that Wanda and her machinations are like a little sandbox of ants within Jeans hand. Leagues of difference.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
WOTPC had to carry out her Phoenix work from inside the nexus of realities. There is no evidence to show whether or not she could carry out that feat without being in there.

This is speculation from yourself. There was no evidence from that scene or any part of that arc that Jean Grey got some unmentioned powerup from stepping into the M'kraan crystal. No reference, no artistic depiction. Thats just your speculation to try and impede an otherwise unstoppable feat.

In the scene itself it was stated clear as day that Jean achieved the feat through her telekinesis. With no mention or depiction of any powerup your point is completely unsupported and without merit.

Throughout the New X-men arc the Phoenix Forces ability to grant unrivaled "telekinetic godhood" was mentioned time and time again. There was conversations about Jean being able to move matter around creating her own universes, which Jean acknowledged but said thats not her role. There was talk of the Beast using his Phoenix gained telekinetic godhood to takeover all creation. All of which gave precedence for Jeans feat in the last issue of the arc.

Your point is unsupported artistically or by statement. Whereas the scope of Jeans power is hinted at throughout the series before the feat, only for us to be told that Jean is manipulating the atoms of the universe telekinetically.

No more needs to be said on the matter.




Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not necessarily, not if the spell transfered laterally. Which was how Wanda's chaos wave moved IRRC.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9736/90035217.jpg

Instead of coming up with ways to try and explain how "illogical" the panels are why don't you try and explain what is there. Those panels are canon, she warped realities inherently different to 616. And the Shadow Kings words reiterate this.

Also marvels definition of it's timeline changes. According to Bendis Avengers it's circular. So I wouldn't put too much faith in time travel laws that keep getting broken like Kangs law.

Also here's Marvels definition of the Multiverse.

http://img178.imageshack.us/f/altuhb2005streetsamuraifr6.jpg

But again I wouldn't put too much faith in definitions that change depending on the writer.

Once again you have provided nothing that conclusively shows Wanda did anything but directly warp 616, resulting in the spell weaving its way through reality as a result of the nature of a multiverse. Nothing.

You have shown nothing that states the universes depicted were parallel realities, you have shown nothing that refutes my point. It is still very possible that the glimpses we were shown were far enough in the future to account for any differences in the characters of these alternate realities, from how they were prior to the point of divergence.

As for your Shadow King evidence, that doesn't say that the spell was cast across all realities. It says the spell was cast"reality shifted" and then as a result cracks formed across the multiverse which facilitated his re-entry. Cracks from what? The spell or the resultant de-powering which had other effects. Inconclusive. Plus the Shadow King is no omniscient.

Dr Strange verifies the range of the spell being across worlds and dimensions, that never was in any doubt. What is in doubt and what remains inconclusive is whether the spell affected those outside of 616 directly or as a result of 616 being a part of a multiverse facilitating the spell reaching all divergent realities.

We know Wandas spell wasnt cast into the past because she would've just created an alternate reality as per Marvel canon. If the spell didnt encompass the past then it didnt encompass literally the entire multiverse. What would make sense according to Stranges and Forges findings is that Wanda cast her spell on to 616 and it wove its way into all divergent realities, which could understandably be referred to as all there is within the present.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its not just speculation that Hope is a Phoenix when she is born in the way of a Phoenix, she manifests its signature and has the appearance of the Forces previous hosts. Nope, thats strong possibility and explicit suggestion from Marvel.

What is not speculation is that the Phoenix Force encompasses all life and it is the driving force behind evolution, what is not speculation is that its hosts can manifest and power and generate any energy they want in any conceivable amount. That is canon. Hope has not displayed any abilities beyond an avatars powerset and given that the Force encompasses all life its inconceivable that she could.

You're interpreting the phrase a Phoenix and then some in a particular way that defies common sense, logic and canon. There are other interpretations that dont require overlooking continuity. Acknowledge them.

As for Phoenix not having any feats beyond Wandas warp, thats simply not true. What do you define as Wandas warp? If you mean the creation of House Of M, then that doesnt even place her above Eternity. Eternity can warp the reality of 616 to his choosing as can many universal artifacts.

If you mean the Chaos Wave, in this thread already i have shown you why it is not a feat of Wanda's so read the thread and if you have any additional evidence to bring forward then do so, but it is conclusively not Wandas direct creation and all the damage it did was as a result of it colliding with Otherworld. All resultant damage was a domino effect, the wave itself never collapsed all of those realities one by one or even simutaneously. It hit the keystone, which compromised the structure, causing some realities to collapse.

The Wave was easily stopped by Excalibur showing you conclusively that the Wave itself was no great cosmic power that was beyond everyones ability to combat. Its threat was that it hit without warning, however it was easily ended. Not a feat of Wandas. Even if it was attributed to her for arguments sake, the way it was stopped and the fact that it was just Meggan who stopped it shows conclusively the Wave when confronted and with warning of its existence, could easily have been halted by a number of characters.

The No More Mutants spell we are debating

Jeans feat of manipulating the universe atoms in the palm of her hand without breaking a sweat, is far beyond Wanda bringing about HOM with the mental co-ordination of Professor Xavier and the emotional support of Pietro. Wanda said she couldnt do so easily in New Avengers and that she doubted her ability to keep control.

So you have going all out and manipulating "the theme" of a universe and being out of sight no doubt so as to maintain control of things, versus manipulating all that is the universes right down to its component atoms within the palm of your hand. Compared to that Wanda and her machinations are like a little sandbox of ants within Jeans hand. Leagues of difference.



This is speculation from yourself. There was no evidence from that scene or any part of that arc that Jean Grey got some unmentioned powerup from stepping into the M'kraan crystal. No reference, no artistic depiction. Thats just your speculation to try and impede an otherwise unstoppable feat.

In the scene itself it was stated clear as day that Jean achieved the feat through her telekinesis. With no mention or depiction of any powerup your point is completely unsupported and without merit.

Throughout the New X-men arc the Phoenix Forces ability to grant unrivaled "telekinetic godhood" was mentioned time and time again. There was conversations about Jean being able to move matter around creating her own universes, which Jean acknowledged but said thats not her role. There was talk of the Beast using his Phoenix gained telekinetic godhood to takeover all creation. All of which gave precedence for Jeans feat in the last issue of the arc.

Your point is unsupported artistically or by statement. Whereas the scope of Jeans power is hinted at throughout the series before the feat, only for us to be told that Jean is manipulating the atoms of the universe telekinetically.

No more needs to be said on the matter.

First of all, it really doesn't bother me whether you agree with me or not. I'm not trying to convince you that's not my job I don't agree with a lot of that. Anyway if you want why I said she needed to be in the nexus of realities it's because she referred to it as the "hospital". So there's no basis to prove that she could do it outside of the "hospital" because she needed to move whatever was in her hand into the hospital to perform said feat which has been discussed to death by yourself and Mr. Master.





It's right there in front of you. The Beast thing is pretty conclusive. I don't need to repeat myself.

Secondly the reality Shadow King was in that got effected involved the O5 so again that's another reality which Wanda's spell effected which couldn't possibly have branched off 616 after her "No More mutants" spell as Jean was alive and Xavier was not missing.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
First of all, it really doesn't bother me whether you agree with me or not. I'm not trying to convince you that's not my job I don't agree with a lot of that. Anyway if you want why I said she needed to be in the nexus of realities it's because she referred to it as the "hospital". So there's no basis to prove that she could do it outside of the "hospital" because she needed to move whatever was in her hand into the hospital to perform said feat which has been discussed to death by yourself and Mr. Master.

All metaphorical. Doctors can still administer treatment outside of a hospital. Outside of the M'kraan crystal, Jean is not without her telekinesis. It is her telekinesis that is said to have been used to perform the feat and those who actually read the New X-men feat would know that Jeans telekinetic ability being on that level was hinted at and referred to throughout the series. Please refer to a statement or artistic depiction that backs up some fantastical and unprecedented powerup that Jean gains from being in the M'kraan crystal or drop the point.

Its a weak point debators bring up in an attempt to counter this top tier feat.





Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It's right there in front of you. The Beast thing is pretty conclusive. I don't need to repeat myself.

Either youve read some statement in that issue that i missed or someone needs to refer to a dictionary, because i assure you if it was "conclusive" i would not be debating the point with you.

Nowhere on panel is your point about Beast stated. You have just read the issue, come up with an interpretation that makes the most sense in your head and youre pushing it as fact. Thats not conclusive my friend

Youre speculating about the point of time in those realities we were shown glimpses of. Enough time or events in those previously unseen realities that are unrelated to Wandas spell could have happened to account for minor differences in appearance and occupation of characters from their 616 counterparts. All possible, all feasible.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Secondly the reality Shadow King was in that got effected involved the O5 so again that's another reality which Wanda's spell effected which couldn't possibly have branched off 616 after her "No More mutants" spell as Jean was alive and Xavier was not missing.

This reality in which the Shadow King took over and made these evil X-men in, does it say that mutants were depowered by Wandas spell in it?

Dont refer me to this again:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3061/newexcalibur8page21.jpg

Does it say anywhere on panel that the reality those evil X-men came from, was affected by Wandas spell and mutants were depowered in it?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All metaphorical. Doctors can still administer treatment outside of a hospital. Outside of the M'kraan crystal, Jean is not without her telekinesis. It is her telekinesis that is said to have been used to perform the feat and those who actually read the New X-men feat would know that Jeans telekinetic ability being on that level was hinted at and referred to throughout the series. Please refer to a statement or artistic depiction that backs up some fantastical and unprecedented powerup that Jean gains from being in the M'kraan crystal or drop the point.

Its a weak point debators bring up in an attempt to counter this top tier feat.

Doctors require equipment to carry out difficult operations. It's the nexus of the of realities, from there she altered Scotts decision and that is how a new viable future was grown. She carried out the feat in the M'kraan crystal which is the nexus of all realities. To say she could carry out that feat outside of it is speculation. Not saying she couldn't but that's what was shown on panel and anything else is an assumption.





They're not minor difference they're major differences. Mutants in all those realities were on the verge of extinction and Beast in Heroic Age: UXM said to Molly that your children will be human it's not viable to wait a really really long time for Beast to learn the occult before addressing the situation. Also Beasts pretty much says that they have as much faith in their fields as he did in his science again reiterating the point that they all weren't 616 Beast when they became whatever they are.





That reality had cracks therefore it was effected by her spell. It caused cracks across all realities. Marvel has mirror universes which would be mirroring 616, this caused cracks across all realities including those not near 616.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Doctors require equipment to carry out difficult operations. It's the nexus of the of realities, from there she altered Scotts decision and that is how a new viable future was grown. She carried out the feat in the M'kraan crystal which is the nexus of all realities. To say she could carry out that feat outside of it is speculation. Not saying she couldn't but that's what was shown on panel and anything else is an assumption.

Its metaphorical and not literal. Remember that. The difference between a doctor and Jean is that her tools are inherent, her tool is her mind.

Jean as stated on panel manipulated the atoms that make up 616 telekinetically. Just before entering the M'kraan crystal Jean as stated on panel telekinetically amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow future off of the multiverse. BEFORE

Therefore not only does the whole series hint at this scope of telekinetic power for years, but just before the infamous "manipulation of 616 at an atomic level in the palm of her hand feat" BEFORE she enters the crystal, Jean shows an unparalleled level of telekinetic and reality warping power by amputating not just a universe, but a section of timeline.

That gives immediate precedence for such a level of telekinetic power. In fact thats probably greater than the manipulation of 616 in her hand because she wasnt just dealing with a universe in one specific state in time, but a part of a timeline

She then steps into the crystal and we're told that she telekinetically manipulates the atoms of 616 and it appears in her hand.

Why didnt i remember that before? Your point is lost. Nothing else needs to be said

Jean would just cut the Scarlet Witch out of the timeline and then change events to grow another one





Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They're not minor difference they're major differences. Mutants in all those realities were on the verge of extinction and Beast in Heroic Age: UXM said to Molly that your children will be human it's not viable to wait a really really long time for Beast to learn the occult before addressing the situation. Also Beasts pretty much says that they have as much faith in their fields as he did in his science again reiterating the point that they all weren't 616 Beast when they became whatever they are.

Who's to say that Beast hadnt been searching for years? And we got a glimpse of him in the midst of this quest. Also as ive mentioned previously Dr Strange went to other dimensions where time runs at a different rate to 616 and learnt decades of mystical knowledge in what passed for hours or days in the main reality. Its an alternate reality that you know nothing about, you are making too many assumptions, we dont know the facts, we dont know what other factors were in play in those realities since the point of divergence, we dont know how much time has passed since the spell affected those realities. So we cant push anything as fact. All im saying is that there are no parallel realities in Marvel and that Wanda never cast her spell on the past otherwise she wouldve changed history and just created an alternate reality. She didnt, she cast it on the present and its undetermined whether her spell got carried across to others because of the nature of a multiverse of whether she directly cast it laterally as you claim.

Lets just say she did do that, that still wouldnt make her a multiversal power. She's not affecting multiple universes worth of matter and energy simultaneously, but instead affecting a small(in terms of matter) change in multiple realities. Altering a chemical composition on multiple Earths. Odin and cube beings have all had battles that have shaken the entire multiverse and yet theyre below the Abstracts.




Originally posted by ExodusCloak
That reality had cracks therefore it was effected by her spell. It caused cracks across all realities. Marvel has mirror universes which would be mirroring 616, this caused cracks across all realities including those not near 616.

There you go making assumptions again. It said reality shifted and then cracks formed across realities. What caused the cracks? The spell directly, or was it the result of the spell, the de-powering of mutants and the implications of that that resulted in the cracks. The statement isnt explicit enough for you to present your point as fact.

i have to say, GalacticStorm, you sure do seem like you know what you're talking about. im learning some stuff.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Does it say anywhere on panel that the reality those evil X-men came from, was affected by Wandas spell and mutants were depowered in it?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dr Strange verifies the range of the spell being across worlds and dimensions, that never was in any doubt. What is in doubt and what remains inconclusive is whether the spell affected those outside of 616 directly or as a result of 616 being a part of a multiverse facilitating the spell reaching all divergent realities.

Her spell affected all realities. It doesn't matter if it started within 616, it had enough energy to affect all Omniverse. You say ''She only did 616 and then her spell woven or only sperad thrugh all realities''. Her spell, her power in spell, there was enough energy to go or spread through all Omniverse. That was her energy, her power.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There you go making assumptions again. It said reality shifted and then cracks formed across realities. What caused the cracks? The spell directly, or was it the result of the spell, the de-powering of mutants and the implications of that that resulted in the cracks. The statement isnt explicit enough for you to present your point as fact.

Does it even matter? Directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter. It was her spell, power that did it. Her spell had enough power behind it to spread across all Omniverse. Her power was Omniversal.

And about Phoenix Force; I mean sum of all life, ultimate mutation, literally 6 heroes defeated the full power of the Phoenix Force and was also blown by Shiar ship, Galactus having power to erase it etc.... Of course there are also high feats (not in league of Wanda though).

You use WPOTC holding an orphan universe (or even if it was 616 universe) in the palm of her hands (and even she saying it wasn't easy) as a big feat. Wanda directly affecting 616 with mere words ''No more mutants'' still tops WPOTC feat holding 616 universe in her hands. And Wanda did with 616 far more than just ''No more mutants'', although even that feat tops WPOTC.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Her spell affected all realities. It doesn't matter if it started within 616, it had enough energy to affect all Omniverse. You say ''She only did 616 and then her spell woven or only sperad thrugh all realities''. Her spell, her power in spell, there was enough energy to go or spread through all Omniverse. That was her energy, her power.



Does it even matter? Directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter. It was her spell, power that did it. Her spell had enough power behind it to spread across all Omniverse. Her power was Omniversal.

Once again, this is where youre going wrong XP. The concepts me and ExodusCloak were talking about you dont seem to understand. If it didnt matter whether it was indirect or direct, then why do you think he tried to argue against me so persistently?

Because it makes ALL the difference

Im going to use this example and i want you to read it and ponder on it before replying.

If Galactus consumed Earth in an issue of Fantastic Four, then all divergent future timelines would not have Earth in them.

Does that mean Galactus' act was multiversal because no Earths exist in future divergent timelines after that? Because timelines diverge all the time from 616 and what makes them divergent timelines is the fact that they ARE 616 up until the point in time that they split off from the main reality. So if Galactus blew up Earth, then of course there would be no Earth in future realities.

So if Wanda cast a spell and made everything in 616 different shades of red and pink to match her outfits, then all future divergent timelines would be red and pink because they are based off of the core template.

So whether its directly or indirectly makes a big difference. If it was directly then she did a very powerful thing.

However if she just cast her spell in 616, then went about her daily routine and the spell made it into other realities NOT because Wanda pushed the spell into them but just because the spell was present at the time that these timelines diverged then the feat is demoted significantly.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And about Phoenix Force; I mean sum of all life, ultimate mutation, literally 6 heroes defeated the full power of the Phoenix Force and was also blown by Shiar ship, Galactus having power to erase it etc.... Of course there are also high feats (not in league of Wanda though).

All those incidents you've mentioned are untruths and you have learnt this over the years and even argued against others saying them. You know better Xp.

The full Phoenix in appearance or power has never been shown on panel. As the Big Bang of reality if it gathered its entirety in one place then there would be a void because the Big Bang is all.

The full Phoenix never got defeated by six heroes, the Jean Grey persona defeated herself, cut back her powers via psychic circuit breakers and that coupled with holding down her dark side she committed suicide.

Or if youre referring to the firebird in the Ultraforce crossover, the firebird as stated on panel, many, many times is an avatar of the Phoenix Force. It is not the Phoenix Force in its totality, but instead a representation.

When you see the firebird, you know that in most cases thats the sentience of the Force itself in operation as opposed to just a host using its power. However the firebird is just a mere manifestation of the Force. Far from all of it.

The Shiar ship blew up an already shattered(by Xorn) avatar of the Force, it reconstituted the cosmic avatar within reality and as stated shattered that which was already in bits.

However the Force as stated is mutable, indestructible cosmic life force. You cant destroy the Force it is by canon completely indestructible.

Its firebird avatars are mutable cosmic energy and can divide into multiples:

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and read Beasts assessment of the Phoenix avatars:

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

These avatars can be absorbed and used as a power source only to just reform itself afterwards:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9814/phoenixresurrectionrevea.th.jpg

Raw energy cant be destroyed, it just goes from state to state.

You are wrong about the full Force being involved and your point about its avatar being blown up is irrelevant. It just reforms with no trouble.


Your argument is weak




Originally posted by Xplosive
You use WPOTC holding an orphan universe (or even if it was 616 universe) in the palm of her hands (and even she saying it wasn't easy) as a big feat. Wanda directly affecting 616 with mere words ''No more mutants'' still tops WPOTC feat holding 616 universe in her hands. And Wanda did with 616 far more than just ''No more mutants'', although even that feat tops WPOTC.

Theres a massive difference between Jean telekinetically amputating an entire timeline and manipulating the atoms of 616 in the palm of her hand and Wanda simply turning off the mutant gene on Earth. Are you having a laugh? Think about the ridiculous difference in matter involved. I could understand you trying to make a case for Wanda warping 616 reality when she caused the HOM reality but the No More Mutants spell? Get serious Xp, turning off the mutant gene on Earth and doing a botch job(because 198 were left unaffected) does not compare to the manipulation of all matter in 616.

Yes Wandas spell affected other realities, but not because she cast it over the entire multiverse, but instead because she cast it on planet Earth and all alternate realities that diverged from 616 would obviously have the spell in it because they are based on 616. Nothing to do with Wanda. Indirect

Originally posted by The Big O
i have to say, GalacticStorm, you sure do seem like you know what you're talking about. im learning some stuff.

Awww. Thanks alot mate

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Once again, this is where youre going wrong XP. The concepts me and ExodusCloak were talking about you dont seem to understand. If it didnt matter whether it was indirect or direct, then why do you think he tried to argue against me so persistently?

Because it makes ALL the difference

Im going to use this example and i want you to read it and ponder on it before replying.

If Galactus consumed Earth in an issue of Fantastic Four, then all divergent future timelines would not have Earth in them.

Does that mean Galactus' act was multiversal because no Earths exist in future divergent timelines after that? Because timelines diverge all the time from 616 and what makes them divergent timelines is the fact that they ARE 616 up until the point in time that they split off from the main reality. So if Galactus blew up Earth, then of course there would be no Earth in future realities.

I do understand.
Of course, all you said is logical and true.
But her spell actually spread through other realites, other universes. As it seems, it affected all. If it spread from 616 to other universes, it had power behind to spread (it has to have enough power behind it). If I destroy Earth now, of course Earth won't exists in the future divergent timeline.
Now, I little forgot how it works in MU; does all other realities spread from 616? But even if they do, if I destroy 616 Earth now, why should Earth cease to exits in Ultimate universe, which is actually other universe with other beings in similar roles. It's actually other reality, other universe in MU. It does diverege form 616, true, but if I kill Wolverine in 616 in the present time (he won't live in future), but he won't cease to exists in all other realities in Omniverse (or I just really forgot how it works in Marvel).
When Wanda said the spell in 616, it spread through other realities and affected them and they weren't affected automatically, because she did it in 616.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All those incidents you've mentioned are untruths and you have learnt this over the years and even argued against others saying them. You know better Xp.

The full Phoenix in appearance or power has never been shown on panel. As the Big Bang of reality if it gathered its entirety in one place then there would be a void because the Big Bang is all.

This might be true of course. But even if it is, on panel it was shown that full Phoenix Force was cast away by six heroes. I don't know how can they write somethign like, since if we use brain, PF, full power or not, could destroy them with the blink of an eye (I think it was Utraforce crossover). I admitt I even don't use that low showings seriously. I don't even use Shiar ship blowing PF into billion pieces seriously.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Or if youre referring to the firebird in the Ultraforce crossover, the firebird as stated on panel, many, many times is an avatar of the Phoenix Force. It is not the Phoenix Force in its totality, but instead a representation.

That is the point. I know it wasn't the totality, part of the full PF, but still, those heroes shouldn't have anything on it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres a massive difference between Jean telekinetically amputating an entire timeline and manipulating the atoms of 616 in the palm of her hand and Wanda simply turning off the mutant gene on Earth. Are you having a laugh? Think about the ridiculous difference in matter involved. I could understand you trying to make a case for Wanda warping 616 reality when she caused the HOM reality but the No More Mutants spell? Get serious Xp, turning off the mutant gene on Earth and doing a botch job(because 198 were left unaffected) does not compare to the manipulation of all matter in 616.

No. I was always far more impressed with only saying mere words and it happens then going into WHR, holding an universe and amputating it atom by atom and saying it wasn't easy, not even for WPOTC, then just saying words or think about it and it happens (like with Wanda or even MJJ).

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yes Wandas spell affected other realities, but not because she cast it over the entire multiverse, but instead because she cast it on planet Earth and all alternate realities that diverged from 616 would obviously have the spell in it because they are based on 616. Nothing to do with Wanda. Indirect

It had everything to do with Wanda, because it was still her spell. And they can't just have spell automatically, because it's actually an other universe. It had to spread. Why would they automatically have the spell, even if it from 616? So if I do something in 616, kill someone in 616, they autmaticaly die in other universes that diverged from 616? If that how it works in Marvel, that is just stupid. Beast in other universe is completely different being than Beast in 616, it's a different person. Only similar role.

And Dr. Strange acutally said her spell woven through all there is. It seems, her spell acutally literally spread through all there is (through other mulitverses in Omniverse and that means it had to have enough energy behind it) and thus affecting all other realites and not because she cast her spell and other realities woud obviously have the spell (it could work that way if Marvel works in that way, but I don't think so. Like I said, if kill someone in 616, he/she would obviously have the same result automatically in othere universes in Omniverse?).

If she did directly, it's even greater (which probably isn't the case, since what Dr. Strange said).

And (by Mr. Master, which also has panels and proof):

Originally posted by Mr Master
As for the Wanda hating:

Yip yap yoop ...

It was Wanda (with a thought)
that put the Omniverse back in place after her power tore it to pieces:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/2121/68053692tt1.th.jpg

"Not long ago, the Omniverse was swept
by a Temporal Reality Wave of unimaginable power,
that literally tore the Continuum to bits and Re-arranged it

After a time, it put everything back the way it was"

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/3984569_Wan1.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/3984572_Wan2.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/3984573_Wan3.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/3984576_Wan4.jpg

We know the Wave was Wanda power, which here is confirmed it actually tore an Omniverse and then put it back together (all Wanda doings).

And when Wanda said ''No more mutants'', she simply meant no more mutants and since mutants are everywhere, that is why she affected all realities.

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/3195842_CW2.jpg

''Only a primal chaos, beyond comprehension of ANY SENTIENCE, no matter how grandiose its opinion of itself''

Wanda stays at the top.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I do understand.
Of course, all you said is logical and true.
But her spell actually spread through other realites, other universes. As it seems, it affected all. If it spread from 616 to other universes, it had power behind to spread (it has to have enough power behind it). If I destroy Earth now, of course Earth won't exists in the future divergent timeline.
Now, I little forgot how it works in MU; does all other realities spread from 616? But even if they do, if I destroy 616 Earth now, why should Earth cease to exits in Ultimate universe, which is actually other universe with other beings in similar roles. It's actually other reality, other universe in MU. It does diverege form 616, true, but if I kill Wolverine in 616 in the present time (he won't live in future), but he won't cease to exists in all other realities in Omniverse (or I just really forgot how it works in Marvel).
When Wanda said the spell in 616, it spread through other realities and affected them and they weren't affected automatically, because she did it in 616.

XP you dont understand otherwise you would not have said this. Divergent timelines are all based on 616. They ARE 616 up until the point that they diverge. So whatever is in 616 at the point of divergence, whatever state 616 was in, would be carried across in these divergent timelines.
Like i said if Galactus blew up Earth, any timelines that diverged from 616 after Galactus did this would not have Earth in them. Of course realities that diverged BEFORE Galactus did this would not be affected.

Again i will post this:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6594/ff543dcp0003.th.jpg

Read it and understand it.

Wanda never cast her spell in the past, otherwise according to the nature of reality stated by Marvel she would have changed history and just created an alternate timeline like she did with House of M. Therefore that means Wanda cast it on the present of 616 which is why future timelines have no mutants in them:

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/6627/xfactor02336.th.jpg

By casting her spell on the universe, at this point in time with her spell still in place in the present, future timelines would automatically be affected as would all timelines that diverge from 616 after she cast her spell. Just like they would all be affected if Galactus blew up Earth, there would be no Earth in realities that diverged from 616 after the act and any future timelines would automatically be affected. That wouldn't make Galactus's feat multiversal.

Further proof that Wanda didnt directly cast her spell over the entire multiverse can be found in the Exiles series.

The House of M crossover within the title lasts between issues 69 and 71, after which point House of M is over and the Exiles move on to different realities. The many realities they move on to in their various adventures are unaffected by Wandas spell:

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4555/exiles0832006teamdcp20.th.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9692/exiles0832006teamdcp21.th.jpg

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8836/exiles0832006teamdcp23.th.jpg

Here you can see the Exiles returning fallen comrades home. These fallen heroes were featured in the title long before House of M meaning their realities diverged from 616 BEFORE House of M. As you can see this wide variety of realities were unaffected by the No More Mutants spell. This proves that Wanda only directy affected the 616 present and in turn realities that diverged from 616 after the spell and future timelines. Wanda conclusively did not affect the entire multiverse directly as shown by the Exiles adventures after their Hose of M crossover. Instead Wanda cast her spell on 616 and as timelines diverged from 616(something that has nothing to do with Wanda) the spell as it was present at the time of the diversion made it into these alternate worlds and dimensions.

I will say this once again just so that you understand. If Galactus blew up Earth in 616, all realities that diverged from 616 after that point would have no Earth, all future timelines of 616 would be affected. That does not mean Galactus directly blew up all Earths in the multiverse, but of course the affects of his actions would indirectly have an affect on future timelines that derive from 616.




Originally posted by Xplosive
This might be true of course. But even if it is, on panel it was shown that full Phoenix Force was cast away by six heroes. I don't know how can they write somethign like, since if we use brain, PF, full power or not, could destroy them with the blink of an eye (I think it was Utraforce crossover). I admitt I even don't use that low showings seriously. I don't even use Shiar ship blowing PF into billion pieces seriously.



That is the point. I know it wasn't the totality, part of the full PF, but still, those heroes shouldn't have anything on it.

It wasnt the full Phoenix Force, it was a shard of the Phoenix Force, just like the ones we saw in Phoenix Endsong and Phoenix Warsong that possessed Emma Frost and the Cuckoos. You were mistaken to believe that the appearance of the Firebird equates to the full force as i explained to you in my previous post.

So not only was it a little portion of the Force, but it was also a portion that de-powered by being in another multiverse:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8421/phoenixresurrectiongene.th.jpg

The Phoenix manifestation was a shard away from the main body of the Force that lies in the Marvel multiverse, therefore it was comapatively weak. That was the plot point that enabled the writers to feature the Phoenix in a believable story. Otherwise the avatar wouldve just blown them away. If you had read the story you would know that. Stop forming your viewpoints based JUST on peoples scans and arguments and take the time out to read the issues themselves.



Originally posted by Xplosive
No. I was always far more impressed with only saying mere words and it happens then going into WHR, holding an universe and amputating it atom by atom and saying it wasn't easy, not even for WPOTC, then just saying words or think about it and it happens (like with Wanda or even MJJ).

Wanda never did it with just words. Her words just marked out to the heroes what she was going to do.

Furthermore the No More mutants spell as ive shown you wasnt her most powerful feat, it involved merely turning off the mutant gene on planet Earth and this of course affected indirectly the future and any timelines that diverged after Wandas actions.

As ive shown you past timelines that diverged before werent affected and neither was the past of 616 itself because that wouldve resulted in an alternate reality leaving 616 unaffected. Which it didnt.

So what that means is that Wanda ONLY made a chemical alteration in the bodies of mutants on planet Earth. That was what she did directly. The future being affected or timelines that later diverged being affected doesnt make it a multiversal feat. Wanda never pushed her spell into those over realities. As they diverged, the spell was in 616 so the spell was in them. Just like if Galactus had eaten earth and then a timeline later diverged there would be no Earth in it.

So compare making a chemical alteration in a few thousand mutant bodies on the planet, compared to Jean not just destroying a universe, which is a reality in one specific point in time, but instead a whole timeline.

She then went on to manipulate the atoms of 616 in her palm telekinetically, so with her thoughts. A lot greater than spoken words and compare the matter of an entire universe to the chemicals of a few thousand mutants on planet Earth

Wandas biggest feat is warping 616 into the House of M and even then that doesnt compare to Jean. Warping 616 is just like giving it a new coat of paint. She changed a few events on Earth making Magneto and her family rulers on Earth and that was that.

How does that compare to controlling the matter and energy of the entire universe down to the atomic level and having it in the palm of your hand like its nothing?

Wanda did nothing on that level.

Furthermore Wanda didnt do it alone and she said herself it would be an effort:

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/9937/scan0012c.th.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/8254/scan0018q.th.jpg

The warping of reality was done with the aid of Pietro for emotional support and Professor Xaviers psi powers to co-ordinate her own. Wanda could barely control it, it was an intense effort.

Phoenix casually destroyed a timeline, not a universe a timeline then manipulated 616 at an atomic level therefore having complete control of its matter all in the palm of her hand. Despite the Consciousness warning her that its no easy thing, she did it without any visible discomfort.

Casually amputating the timeline:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

Materializing and having complete control of the universe with no visible strain or discomfort:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

Wanda and all her efforts, the abstracts and their cosmic wars are nothing but ants in the little universe Jean Grey has total telekinetic control over in her palm.




Originally posted by Xplosive
It had everything to do with Wanda, because it was still her spell. And they can't just have spell automatically, because it's actually an other universe. It had to spread. Why would they automatically have the spell, even if it from 616? So if I do something in 616, kill someone in 616, they autmaticaly die in other universes that diverged from 616? If that how it works in Marvel, that is just stupid. Beast in other universe is completely different being than Beast in 616, it's a different person. Only similar role.

And Dr. Strange acutally said her spell woven through all there is. It seems, her spell acutally literally spread through all there is (through other mulitverses in Omniverse and that means it had to have enough energy behind it) and thus affecting all other realites and not because she cast her spell and other realities woud obviously have the spell (it could work that way if Marvel works in that way, but I don't think so. Like I said, if kill someone in 616, he/she would obviously have the same result automatically in othere universes in Omniverse?).

If she did directly, it's even greater (which probably isn't the case, since what Dr. Strange said).

Ive already handled this already. Wanda conclusively as ive shown never directly cast the spell across the multiverse, she cast it on 616. Futures which stem off 616 and divergent timelines which spring off 616 would obviously contain the spell in it because they are derived from 616 where the spell was cast. Therfore in that way the spell has woven itself through the multiverse, not through any direct action or multiversal effort from Wanda, therefore the feat in itself is not top tier. The spell itself was merely turning off the x-gene in a few thousand mutant bodies on earth. Thats a simple chemical alteration. So whilst the impact of the spell went far beyond the original action, Wandas actual feat the casting of the spell on to 616 was not that great.

Her biggest feat is causing House of M and as ive shown it taxed her abilities to their fullest and she couldnt maintain control of it, even with the aid of Prof X and Pietro.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And (by Mr. Master, which also has panels and proof):

http://img513.imageshack.us/f/68053692tt1.jpg/



We know the Wave was Wanda power, which here is confirmed it actually tore an Omniverse and then put it back together (all Wanda doings).

And when Wanda said ''No more mutants'', she simply meant no more mutants and since mutants are everywhere, that is why she affected all realities.

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/3195842_CW2.jpg

''Only a primal chaos, beyond comprehension of ANY SENTIENCE, no matter how grandiose its opinion of itself''

Wanda stays at the top.

That scan of Mr Masters and Jaspers you have misinterpreted. Why have you misinterpreted? Because you just swallowed what Mr Master wrote alongside his carefully selected scans and never read the issues yourself.

If you read that paragraph carefully it says a wave of unimaginable power tore through reality and tore it to pieces. That was the Chaos Wave, youre right. However whilst the Chaos Wave may very well have been triggered by Wanda, as stated on panel very clearly was not a direct manifestation of Wandas power:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8048/uncannyxmen462p18.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

As stated on panel, the Chaos Wave was the leaking of warped 616 reality through a breach in the dimensional wall that Wandas alteration unwittingly caused. The Wave is clearly and explicitly stated to have been triggered by Wandas House of M. Just like if a lightning bolt hit a tree splitting it, the heat from the lightning bolt caused a fire which eventually spread to other trees and the whole forest burnt down before it was eventually stopped. Thats effectively what happened. Wandas direct action, the creation of House of M, triggered the Chaos Wave. That lightning bolt of its own power couldnt have destroyed that whole forest. However it triggered the fire which spread and consumed the forest. All the Chaos Wave did cannot be attributed to Wanda, she never directly created it, she never directed it or maintained it whilst it existed. Wandas only big feats that can be directly attributed to her are House of M and the No More Mutants spell.

For arguments sake, even if we were to attribute the Chaos Wave to Wanda, it still wasnt that impressive.

It was a trans temporal tsunami which leaked into Otherworld which as the "primary intersection" or reality, the place where according to this story arc, all realities are connected to, it collapsed the structure:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9660/uncannyxmen462p05.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The Chaos Wave didnt expand across the entire multverse and collapse it. As clearly marked out in the issue, Otherworld is the primary intersection of realities. All or most realities are connected to it. Think of it as a keystone of reality. The Chaos Wave collided with the keystone, the weakpoint of reality and it caused a number to collapse on themselves. It didnt caused all of them to collapse or 616 wouldve been done for. It clearly wasnt. The idea that it reached out across all existence and simultaneously collapsed all realities is also conclusively incorrect. It leaked into Otherworld hitting the weak point.

Think of Otherworld as a column supporting a bridge, The column was shaken, compromising the structure of the bridge and causing some of it to collapse.

As for why you misinterpreted this scan:

http://img513.imageshack.us/f/68053692tt1.jpg/

If you read it carefully, it says the omniverse was torn apart by the Chaos Wave, however when it says that it reversed itself and put it all back together again, its not talking about the Wave, its referring to reality correcting itself.

The wave never reversed, it was stopped by Meggan a sub herald level character

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The mighty, omnipotent Chaos Wave stopped in 4 pages by sub herald characters:

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/4885/uncannyxmen465page22.th.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2401/uncannyxmen465page21.th.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6751/uncannyxmen465page20.th.jpg

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/5503/uncannyxmen465page23.th.jpg



Its not as powerful as people would have you believe. It was easily stopped. It was just a big threat if left unchecked. It leaked from 616 into Otherworld. Otherworld as ive shown is the intersection where all realities are connected. It a keystone to reality, a weakpoint if you will. It struck this weak part of the structure and many realities collapsed on themslves. The Chaos Wave did not spread across all existence simultaneously collapsing all realities as some would claim.

There goes the mighty Chaos Wave myth

READ the issues you see scans from. Take the time to think about ambiguous statements. If a statement can POSSIBLY be interpreted in a different way, then dont just argue that your way is the truth because you prefer that idea. Look at other factors involved, like is there precedence for this feat, what do the handbooks say when they refer to the incident.

Jean Grey is the most powerful mutant in Marvel and her feats of power are greater than any mutant we've seen and greater than any universal level characters or artifacts.

Look. If Galactus destroys Earth, Earth won't exists in future timelines from the point he destroyed it. Of course. Does that also mean, Earth won't exist in Ultimate universe? If I kill Wolverine, will Wolverine automatically cease to exist also in Ultimate universe? No, he won't. Wolverine in Ultimate universe is completely different being and not his personal expansion (even if it is an alternate reality diverged from 616). Wolverine in Ultimate universe doesn't depend on Wolverine in 616 universe (and LT acutally could change 616U with UU). If something happens to Wolverine in 616, that doesn't mean at all it happens to him in UU. The same goes for the spell. If Wanda affected mutants in 616, that doesn't mean at all it automatically affected mutants in UU, but it needed to spread or directly. And as I know, UU was also affected by Wanda spell. Actually, Dr. Strange said all realites. And when she said ''No more mutants'' she simply meant it, no more mutants and since mutants are everywhere, also in other universes, thus result was affecting them all.

But if you say is true, then all other universes in Omniverse depends on 616 and 616 works as an absolute universe (since is not the case, because LT could change it with UU and LT is not an absolute) and beings in Ultimate universe and other universes in Omnverse should always tremble ''I hope something doesn't happen to Wolvereine... beings in 616 so that I won't automatically cease to exist'', even though beings in 616 are completelly different than others in UU (but of couse similar role, still completely different being).

Meggan with all the power she had, only gave Chaos Wave a pause, nothing more.

How could I misinterpreted MJJ scans, when it literally says that Chaos Wave literally tore the Omniverse completely and then put it back? Wanda was responsible for that and Chaos Wave. I mean it couldn't be put back on its own, some had to have control over it.

Even Wanda in alternate universe could have warped every Earth in Omniverse.

Scarlet Witch may have done something great but not everybody was affected by it

Originally posted by RLAAMJR.
Scarlet Witch may have done something great but not everybody was affected by it

Not everybody was affected in any case. Only case I remember everyone being affected, was when Thanos with THOTI destroyed everyone and everything (and even then Death (although because of Thanos love towards her) was alive and Adam).

Originally posted by Xplosive
Look. If Galactus destroys Earth, Earth won't exists in future timelines from the point he destroyed it. Of course. Does that also mean, Earth won't exist in Ultimate universe? If I kill Wolverine, will Wolverine automatically cease to exist also in Ultimate universe? No, he won't. Wolverine in Ultimate universe is completely different being and not his personal expansion (even if it is an alternate reality diverged from 616). Wolverine in Ultimate universe doesn't depend on Wolverine in 616 universe (and LT acutally could change 616U with UU). If something happens to Wolverine in 616, that doesn't mean at all it happens to him in UU. The same goes for the spell. If Wanda affected mutants in 616, that doesn't mean at all it automatically affected mutants in UU, but it needed to spread or directly. And as I know, UU was also affected by Wanda spell.

Xp youre just not getting the whole alternate universe and multiversal concept otherwise you wouldnt be debating this point with me and you wouldnt be typing what you are

What happens in the core universe, will affect future timelines that derive from the core universe(616). Anything done in the present as i stated before if Galactus blew up a planet in the present it would affect future timelines based off of 616, any timeline that diverged after Galactus had blown up the planet, would not have the planet in them.

Any timelines that diverged into their own alternate realities BEFORE Galactus blew up the planet, would NOT be affected by Galactus eating the planet because those realities were based on 616 up until a certain point BEFORE that event and diverged into their own realities. They are still connected to 616, but they diverged at an earlier point.

My argument is that Wanda did NOT directly apply her spell to the whole multiverse directly as you and exoduscloak claim, but instead she applied it to 616 and future timelines and any timelines that diverged from 616 after the No More Mutants spell obviously had it in them automatically because they diverged from 616 after the spell was cast.

I then went on to prove my point by showing you a variety of alternate realities that were visited on panel AFTER the No More mutants spell was cast and they had plenty of mutants in them, they were unaffected. These same realities were 1st shown in the Exiles comic before Wanda cast her spell which meant that they diverged from 616 at an earlier point. So as i explained just now, at the point of time they diverged, the spell hadnt been cast so the spell wasnt automatically carried across into them. But as we saw when these realities were shown later the spell still wasnt in them which proves i was right.

The spell was cast in 616 and it therefore affected "all realities" that diverged after this event which would explain Stranges and Shadow Kings comments and also account for why as shown in Exiles not literally all realities were affected.

Regardless of the word of Dr Strange or Shadow King who as far as they could see said the spell had affected all realities, they are not omniscient, just knowledgeable therefore their word does NOT equate to fact. Despite what they thought, we were SHOWN that Wandas spell actually did NOT affect all realities. There was at least a dozen realities depicted on panel that were actually visited on panel and that is greater proof than an ambigious statement like "all realities" which as i said previously could mean all realities derived from 616 after Wandas spell.


Originally posted by Xplosive
Actually, Dr. Strange said all realites. And when she said ''No more mutants'' she simply meant it, no more mutants and since mutants are everywhere, also in other universes, thus result was affecting them all.

As i have shown with on panel proof far greater than Dr Stranges ambiguous statement, all realities were conclusively NOT affected.

My interpretation that Wandas spell was cast on 616 and affected all realities that diverged after her spell accounts for why in Exiles realities that diverged BEFORE Wandas spell were unaffected after House Of M. Your interpretation that she cast her spell on the entire multiverse has been shown by on panel evidence to be conclusively wrong.

Originally posted by Xplosive
But if you say is true, then all other universes in Omniverse depends on 616 and 616 works as an absolute universe (since is not the case, because LT could change it with UU and LT is not an absolute) and beings in Ultimate universe and other universes in Omnverse should always tremble ''I hope something doesn't happen to Wolvereine... beings in 616 so that I won't automatically cease to exist'', even though beings in 616 are completelly different than others in UU (but of couse similar role, still completely different being).

This paragraph shows that you did not fully read my posts to understand the concept of a multiverse in Marvel. Read again and see why this is NOT an appropriate response to what ive said.

Any realities diverged after the event would be affected. Realities that diverged before the event would be unaffected. I hope you understand now.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Meggan with all the power she had, only gave Chaos Wave a pause, nothing more.

Meggan is not a big cosmic power. Shes below herald level and thats how she has been shown consistently throughout her existence. She stopped the Chaos Wave and thats that.

It was only a big threat because it was unexpected and hit Otherworld. Otherworld was shaken and as Otherworld is connected to all realities a number collapsed into Otherworld. The Chaos Wave itself did NOT collapse realities directly as shown on panel. It did NOT sweep aside alternate Galactuses and abstracts as you claimed. It did nothing of the sort. You misinterpreted. Its all explained on panel if only you had just read instead of just looking at the pictures and believing what other posters told you without analysing for yourself.

Originally posted by Xplosive
How could I misinterpreted MJJ scans, when it literally says that Chaos Wave literally tore the Omniverse completely and then put it back? Wanda was responsible for that and Chaos Wave. I mean it couldn't be put back on its own, some had to have control over it.

The scan did NOT say that the Chaos Wave fixed reality. They say the wave shook up reality and that reality later fixed itself. The subject matter of the statement is the omniverse/continuum, it says the omniverse was shaken up by the wave, then everything was put back.

http://img513.imageshack.us/f/68053692tt1.jpg/

Your mistake was in interpreting that the Chaos Wave did this when the subject matter of the entire page is the omniverse and what happened to it.

You made an illogical assumption given that the wave as stated was a mindless, destructive force and thats all it ever was depicted as. Furthermore there is a precedence for reality trying to fix itself after the damage done by the Chaos Wave:


http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5503/uncannyxmen465page23.th.jpg


Reality corrects itself all the time. This particular scan refers to REALITY correcting itself after the damage done by the Chaos Wave so its directly related to your scan. You misinterpreted.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Even Wanda in alternate universe could have warped every Earth in Omniverse.

Based on what evidence? If that was the case then we could say the same for every alternate version of a character and we'd be able to use What Ifs in debates here Xp. You know thats not the case.

Xp, every point you've come up with ive shown to be incorrect, you have nowhere to go from here. Its quite clear im right.

Ive shown that not all realities were affected by Wandas spell.

Specifically ive shown that alternate realities that existed prior to House of M(meaning they diverged from 616 before the spell) were NOT affected which means literally all realities were NOT affected

Ive shown scans of Forge saying that future timelines were affected which makes sense given that they occur AFTER Wandas spell was cast.

My interpretation that Wandas spell was cast on 616 and wove through the multiverse because of realities that diverged after the spell was cast and future timelines automatically having the spell in it because they are based on 616 after the spell has been cast accounts for the numerous realities that were not affected. Your interpretation does NOT and theres no way of getting around that.

You misinterpreted what the Chaos Wave was and what it was directly responsible. I have shown you that it did NOT directly collapse realities and instead collided with Otherworld and as Otherworld is a keystone of reality, shaking it was like taking the wrong Jenga piece. It caused a domino effect. It didnt do the damage itself and it certainly didnt swat away Galactus and abstracts as per your misinterpretation.

Furthermore as ive shown you reality can and does heal itself in Marvel. As shown in the scan it did so after the Chaos Wave was handled by Excalibur.

Do NOT just believe what youre told by other posters, read the comics the scans come from and analyse them, dont just let others tell u whats happening in a scan. Especially when its a poster like Mr Master with an agenda.

Wanda is no Phoenix, she is a powerful character capable of warping reality in a universe. That is her biggest feat however, she struggled majorly with it and lost control despite the aid of Professor Xavier who she needed to bring House of M about.

Wanda did NOT cast the no more mutanst spell over the entire multiverse.

Wanda did not create the Chaos Wave. It was an accident that she triggered by bringing about House of M.

Her feats are conclusively below Jean Greys who amputates timelines and controls the atomic structures of universes within the palm of her hand without even breaking a sweat.

I understand it perfectly well, GS. Like I said before, if Galactus blows a planet and future timelines diverged from it, of course planet isn't there. Realities that diverged before he blowed it up (in the past), would be unaffected since they diverged in the past (past like before blowing the planet). I said it before, it's logical. But what you didn't seem to understand what I was trying to say, when you say all she cast a spell and all future timelines diverged were autaomatically affected, I was arguing that doesn't mean automatically all realties were affected, like I was giving an example of UU and Wolverine. Of course, you said, alternate realities diverged before that are uneffected, but you don't understand why I was giving a such example, because you were always sticking ''diverged future timelines ...'' , it doesn't matter, because Wanda affected ALL realities (all means ALL) as it was stated by Dr. Strange and Shadow King.

That means that Wanda applied it directly in ALL others or it actually spread to affect all others (as I was always saying) and it seems Dr. Strange said that was the case and it affected ALL realities in Omniverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The scan did NOT say that the Chaos Wave fixed reality. They say the wave shook up reality and that reality later fixed itself. The subject matter of the statement is the omniverse/continuum, it says the omniverse was shaken up by the wave, then everything was put back.

Actually it says that Omniverse was literally tore up to bits and then rearranged it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Xp, every point you've come up with ive shown to be incorrect, you have nowhere to go from here. Its quite clear im right.

No, acutally you aren't and it's not to know from where to go, because you are just always repeating yourself and it's going around the circle.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Specifically ive shown that alternate realities that existed prior to Hbouse of M(meaning they diverged from 616 before the spell) were NOT affected which means literally all realities were NOT affected

I was always arguing it affected all realities, that is why I was always saying it didn't matter was it directly or it spread, since it was ALL realities in question and not only future timelines that diverged.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Furthermore as ive shown you reality can and does heal itself in Marvel. As shown in the scan it did so after the Chaos Wave was handled by Excalibur.

Except that it says Wave of unimaginable power tore it to bits and rearragned it.

If what you say is true, that all realities weren't affected, then you are simply right.

But I don't have the will to go back and search of comics and take a time and read it. You seem so sure if I read it, that I would find that you were right all the time.

You have panels saying it affected realities, then you say all alternated realities weren't affected and so on...

And honestly GS, I would like that you are right, because as you know, I always liked Phoenix.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I understand it perfectly well, GS. Like I said before, if Galactus blows a planet and future timelines diverged from it, of course planet isn't there. Realities that diverged before he blowed it up (in the past), would be unaffected since they diverged in the past (past like before blowing the planet). I said it before, it's logical. But what you didn't seem to understand what I was trying to say, when you say all she cast a spell and all future timelines diverged were autaomatically affected, I was arguing that doesn't mean automatically all realties were affected, like I was giving an example of UU and Wolverine. Of course, you said, alternate realities diverged before that are uneffected, but you don't understand why I was giving a such example, because you were always sticking ''diverged future timelines ...'' , it doesn't matter, because Wanda affected ALL realities (all means ALL) as it was stated by Dr. Strange and Shadow King.

That means that Wanda applied it directly in ALL others or it actually spread to affect all others (as I was always saying) and it seems Dr. Strange said that was the case and it affected ALL realities in Omniverse.



Actually it says that Omniverse was literally tore up to bits and then rearranged it.



No, acutally you aren't and it's not to know from where to go, because you are just always repeating yourself and it's going around the circle.



I was always arguing it affected all realities, that is why I was always saying it didn't matter was it directly or it spread, since it was ALL realities in question and not only future timelines that diverged.



Except that it says Wave of unimaginable power tore it to bits and rearragned it.

If what you say is true, that all realities weren't affected, then you are simply right.

But I don't have the will to go back and search of comics and take a time and read it. You seem so sure if I read it, that I would find that you were right all the time.

You have panels saying it affected realities, then you say all alternated realities weren't affected and so on...

And honestly GS, I would like that you are right, because as you know, I always liked Phoenix.

Im not going to reply to you point for point because i dont need to, the evidence is quite clear.

Regardless of what Strange and Shadow King said, their word was shown to be conclusively incorrect so theres no merit in repeating the point that they said it affected all realities because it did not.

As a long time comic reader you should know that statements like all reality or all realities are ambiguous and shouldnt necessarily be taken literally. This is another case where you were wrong to take it literally because Wanda did not affect all realities as shown clearly on panel.

Wanda as far as we've seen only affected future timelines and the present as shown, which means that she never applied her power directly across the multiverse, she only applied it in 616 and when alternate realities later diverged they obviously carried the spell with them.

The Chaos Wave in that scan with MJJ was said to have torn up the omniverse, the scan doesnt go on to say the Chaos Wave fixed everything, it says reality put things back the way they were. You misinterpreted. I showed you a scan stating and showing how reality started to fix itself after the Chaos Wave struck. You were wrong on that point.

All in all, Wanda has been hyped up on these forums partly because of Mr Masters agenda and partly because posters dont bother to look into things themselves and believe whatever theyre told as long as a few pretty vaguely relevant scans are posted. Few bother to look into the evidence themselves which creates this confusion.

To summarise:

Wanda warped 616 to bring about House of M, however as she stated she couldnt control it, she needed Professor Xaviers powers to co-ordinate her reality warping. Wolverine and Layla Miller could see through the warp showing she did a rubbish job and when the heroes attacked she lost control showing it was an effort and that to maintain she needed full concentration.

Wanda only directly applied her spell to 616 Earth. However any realities that diverged from 616 also had Earths with the spell in them, but thats common sense. Nice feat, not amazing.

Wanda did not create the Chaos Wave, it was an accident that she had no direct part in, she merely triggered it. It was only a big deal when left unchecked and it did so much damage because it hit without warning, but as shown by Excalibur when confronted it didnt require a great cosmic power to be dealt with.

Wanda is overrated.

Jean for the win

Still, the scan with MJJ, ''Not so long ago, the omniverse was swept to by a temporal reality wave (since Chaos Wave was in the game, we know they meant Chaos Wave) of unimaginable power... that literally tore the continuum to bits and rearranged it''.
You can say whatever you want, but it is very clear that they applied on wave tearing it (definitely did it) and putting it together. And after rearraning it, of course it was then capable of healing itself and put everything in order like it was before (look at this way; human body tore up and then rearranged and put together, only after that, body will be capable in time of healing itself to a previous condtions, like it was before), but wave tore it and rearrange it. After that, it was capable of healing itself. Only how can you defend here is that Chaos Wave maybe wasn't really Wanda power (I cannot comment here, because I won't go reading it back).
If it was (IF), Wanda wins (even if you only agree with wave tearing it).

Originally posted by Xplosive
Still, the scan with MJJ, ''Not so long ago, the omniverse was swept to by a temporal reality wave (since Chaos Wave was in the game, we know they meant Chaos Wave) of unimaginable power... that literally tore the continuum to bits and rearranged it''.
You can say whatever you want, but it is very clear that they applied on wave tearing it (definitely did it) and putting it together. And after rearraning it, of course it was then capable of healing itself and put everything in order like it was before (look at this way; human body tore up and then rearranged and put together, only after that, body will be capable in time of healing itself to a previous condtions, like it was before), but wave tore it and rearrange it. After that, it was capable of healing itself. Only how can you defend here is that Chaos Wave maybe wasn't really Wanda power (I cannot comment here, because I won't go reading it back).

I was never saying that the wave didnt tear up reality, i was arguing against you saying that it tore up reality and afterwards it put reality back together again. Thats what you initially said and said a few times in this thread. That is why i went on to say that you misinterpreted, the wave was only shown to be mindless and destructive and i then showed you scans saying that after the wave did its damage then reallity healed itself.

Now youre trying to make out like i had an issue with the point that the chaos wave tore up reality i never did.

What i do have an issue with and as i proved in this thread with scans is that the chaos wave never went around from reality to reality collapsing them, it also never spread and collapsed a load of realities under its own power. Instead it collided with Otherworld and that had a domino effect which caused realities to collapse.

Otherworld was made a primary intersection of reality by the Phoenix Force who connected all realities of the multiverse to it:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6177/excalibur050p17.th.jpg

The lighthouse(which would later become Excaliburs headquarters) became a dimensional gateway to Otherworld and its through this weakpoint in 616's dimensional wall that Wandas out of control energies accidentally leaked through as the Chaos Wave:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8048/uncannyxmen462p18.th.jpg

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5306/uncannyxmen465page14.th.jpg

the wave collided with Otherworld which again is marked out as being connected to all realities (thanks to the Phoenix Force):

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9660/uncannyxmen462p05.th.jpg

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5171/uncannyxmen462p06.th.jpg

See Otherworld as a multiversal support column, when the the Chaos Wave hit this column and shook it up, parts of the structure it was connected with collapsed:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9328/uncannyxmen462p0708.th.jpg

Or you could see the wave as a shout in the alps, that de-stabilizes a great mound of snow and TRIGGERS an avalanche(the collapse of some realities).

The wave never collapsed realities directly of its own power, it just destabilised a keystone of reality which is Otherworld, which triggered the collapse.

The wave was later stopped by Excalibur, no great powers needed to get involved. The wave was only a threat because it struck suddenly without warning.

It could never have collapsed realities directly (going by how easily it was stopped and by the power level of those who stopped it) it instead destabilized Otherworld.

Yes you have seen heroes and what looked to be an alternate reality fall victim to the destruction, but they were taken out by the collapse of their realities, not by the wave directly. They knew nothing of the wave and as shown by Meggan if they confronted it directly could no doubt have dealt with it. Its just like if i shouted in the Alps and caused an avalanche which swept across a nearby town killing many residents, residents who no doubt together or even some individually could kick my ass, the fact that i triggered something that caused their destruction doesnt make me greater than them. Could i walk around that town shouting down buildings and shouting people to death?

The chaos wave was a powerful time/space anomaly, however it was not as all powerful or unstoppable as it has been hyped up to be by posters who dont bother to really think about what they read and are instead just satisfied with pretty pictures


Originally posted by Xplosive
If it was (IF), Wanda wins (even if you only agree with wave tearing it).

Wanda never had anything directly to do with it, it was an accident she knew nothing about, something her direct creation(House of M) triggered. Even if she had directly created it, it still wasnt as big a deal as you think and ive shown that. It didnt do a lot of damage on its own directly, it messed up Otherworlds building and tore up the place a bit but thats that. This collision then went on to spiral into something bigger than what the Chaos Wave ever could do directly and thats simply because of Otherworlds connection to all realities as established by the Phoenix Force

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Now youre trying to make out like i had an issue with the point that the chaos wave tore up reality i never did.

Not true. As you can see, I wasn't making an issue, I said ''even if you only agree with tearing it'', because I know you certainly agree with that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What i do have an issue with and as i proved in this thread with scans is that the chaos wave never went around from reality to reality collapsing them, it also never spread and collapsed a load of realities under its own power. Instead it collided with Otherworld and that had a domino effect which caused realities to collapse

If that is true, but still, tell, how many did that in Marvel Universe ever? Maybe only handful. This still goes among top feats in MU.

And what about when it says that wave power was beyond comphrehnsion of any sentience, no matter how grandiose of its opinion of itself''. That could even go for someone like Living Tribunal, since he is also a sentient being and is especially said, ''no matter how grandiose''.

You provided some good scans and they are also reasonable and it seems, they are made with connections. I could actually agree with you with all of these. Probably the best way is to go study these myself and see, but I won't.
I won't go anymore, even if scans provided and saying he is certainly right and so on..., but it seems you did good.

Originally posted by Xplosive

If that is true, but still, tell, how many did that in Marvel Universe ever? Maybe only handful. This still goes among top feats in MU.

The power that connected all of the realities in the 1st place was the Phoenix Forces. That in itself is a greater feat than shaking Otherworld and because of the connection the Phoenix made triggering a domino effect.

What if Phoenix Forcibly undid its work?

The damage caused was great, but as the damage caused wasnt directly done by the Chaos Wave itself it doesnt count. I used my avalanche example for a reason. I may be able to destablize a mound of snow and cause a town destroying avalanche with my voice, but does that mean my voice is directly responsible for destroying the town?

Could i have gone to the buildings and shouted them down directly with my voice or killed people by shouting at them?

The point is clear.

The Chaos Wave triggered the destruction it never directly caused it. It is overrated.

Either way, the feat is not Wandas, it was a freak accident.

Originally posted by Xplosive

And what about when it says that wave power was beyond comphrehnsion of any sentience, no matter how grandiose of its opinion of itself''. That could even go for someone like Living Tribunal, since he is also a sentient being and is especially said, ''no matter how grandiose''.

Once again you have misinterpreted. Read things more carefully.

http://img15.imageshack.us/f/uncannyxmen462p0708.jpg/

The scan clearly talks about how important the walls between dimensions are and how they keep order in reality, it then says to imagine if they were stripped away, there would be no coherence just a primal chaos. The statement is not saying that the wave is beyond the comprehension of any sentience it is referring to the resultant destruction. The absence of having dimensional walls. THAT is the primal chaos that is beyond the understanding of any sentience.

Originally posted by Xplosive

You provided some good scans and they are also reasonable and it seems, they are made with connections. I could actually agree with you with all of these. Probably the best way is to go study these myself and see, but I won't.
I won't go anymore, even if scans provided and saying he is certainly right and so on..., but it seems you did good.

Yes, the best thing is to read all of the issues and dont just go by scans posted by Mr Master coupled with his biased take on things.

Wandas biggest feat is the creation of the HOM reality. Warping reality in the universe doesnt place Wanda above cosmic cubes or even Eternity himself who can and has warped the entirety of his dimension and does so flawlessly without the need for Professor Xavier

Wanda is very powerful, but she is not beyond universal and is certainly not beyond the likes of the most powerful universal forces and artifacts(Eternity/Infinity, the IG and Cosmic Cubes)

Wandas actions triggered the Chaos Wave, it was an accident she knew nothing about, therefore all it did is not a feat of hers.

The Chaos Wave triggered destruction across existence. It did nothing directly but collide with and damage Otherworld which had a domino effect and damaged other realities due to the Phoenix Force bonding Otherworld to all realities in existence.

Jean Grey would stomp Wanda

Aha, I understand.

Is there anything new about PF?
I don't know what new you have rea about it, but in this moment, in which place you put FP in MU? Don't count TOAA. Nor Pre-R Beyonder or Pre-R MM since they were retconned. And also not Thanos with THOTI, since he was too much.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Aha, I understand.

Is there anything new about PF?
I don't know what new you have rea about it, but in this moment, in which place you put FP in MU? Don't count TOAA. Nor Pre-R Beyonder or Pre-R MM since they were retconned. And also not Thanos with THOTI, since he was too much.

The Phoenix Force is its latest bio which came out about 3 months ago is now stated to be a multiversal force. It is therefore beyond any universal power or artifact, all of the abstracts, the IG, the Cosmic Cubes, the StarBrand, everything that stems from a universe.

We knew this anyway because before the latest bio we had many on panel statements from abstracts like Death, cosmics like Kubik, Roma and the Watcher and geniuses like Reed Richards calling the Phoenix Force the Big Bang from which all reality derives and that without it there would be a void, no universe at all.

Im glad the latest bio has confirmed its multiversal status because if it was just universal how could the White Phoenix manipulate all the atoms of 616 universe and destroy not mere universe but entire timelines if she only had a universal power source?

Phoenix is underrated because people assume the firebird on panel means the full Phoenix Force is in the issue when all the firebird is is a representation of the actual sentience of the Force instead of the Force acting through a host who is in control and can access the Forces power. If the Force is amongst other things the Big Bang which all of reality derives from, then how can a little firebird be the full force if the firebird is on panel WITHIN the universe. If the full force was to withdraw all of its power and manifest in its entirety then as Death and the Watcher said there would be a void, because the Phoenix Force is the creation energies that make up all that is. Thats the difference between the Phoenix Force and Eternity. The Force is the actual creation energies that reality and concepts such as space, time, love, hate, order and chaos derive from. Those concepts arent power in themselves, they are given meaning by the Big Bang and tap into its power. So Eternity is the concept of time and represents all that is along the timeline without actually physically being it. Whereas Phoenix is literally the living creation energies of all reality.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix Force is its latest bio which came out about 3 months ago is now stated to be a multiversal force. It is therefore beyond any universal power or artifact, all of the abstracts, the IG, the Cosmic Cubes, the StarBrand, everything that stems from a universe.

We knew this anyway because before the latest bio we had many on panel statements from abstracts like Death, cosmics like Kubik, Roma and the Watcher and geniuses like Reed Richards calling the Phoenix Force the Big Bang from which all reality derives and that without it there would be a void, no universe at all.

Im glad the latest bio has confirmed its multiversal status because if it was just universal how could the White Phoenix manipulate all the atoms of 616 universe and destroy not mere universe but entire timelines if she only had a universal power source?

Phoenix is underrated because people assume the firebird on panel means the full Phoenix Force is in the issue when all the firebird is is a representation of the actual sentience of the Force instead of the Force acting through a host who is in control and can access the Forces power. If the Force is amongst other things the Big Bang which all of reality derives from, then how can a little firebird be the full force if the firebird is on panel WITHIN the universe. If the full force was to withdraw all of its power and manifest in its entirety then as Death and the Watcher said there would be a void, because the Phoenix Force is the creation energies that make up all that is. Thats the difference between the Phoenix Force and Eternity. The Force is the actual creation energies that reality and concepts such as space, time, love, hate, order and chaos derive from. Those concepts arent power in themselves, they are given meaning by the Big Bang and tap into its power. So Eternity is the concept of time and represents all that is along the timeline without actually physically being it. Whereas Phoenix is literally the living creation energies of all reality.

Aha, ok.
So, PF it seems is then actually beyond everyone in MU, except Living Tribunal, since is also said on panels and in BIO he is only second to TOAA.

To put an end to this, Storm is the most powerful mutant.

Originally posted by RLAAMJR.
To put an end to this, Storm is the most powerful mutant.

I agree.

Originally posted by RLAAMJR.
To put an end to this, Storm is the most powerful mutant.

Of course you do.

Um, wheres the option for Wolverine?

Originally posted by Placidity
Um, wheres the option for Wolverine?

You mean Squirrel Girl.

lol

Not including Phoenix Avatar the top 5 Mutants would be:

HoM Wanda
Marquis of Death
Mad Jim Jaspers
Franklin Richards
Jamie Braddock


While the topic of the Phoenix Force is going on I stumbled on a little fun fact about Nate Grey. In AoA The Phoenix Force is directly tied in to the mysterious mutant known as Alpha. Instead of the Phoenix Force looking for hosts, its hereditarily passed down to the decedents of Alpha. AoA Jean, and Nate Grey are the last known decedents. I would love to see Nate Grey would interact with Rachel Summers or even Hope Summers.

Originally posted by "Id"
Not including Phoenix Avatar the top 5 Mutants would be:

HoM Wanda
Marquis of Death
Mad Jim Jaspers
Franklin Richards
Jamie Braddock


While the topic of the Phoenix Force is going on I stumbled on a little fun fact about Nate Grey. In AoA The Phoenix Force is directly tied in to the mysterious mutant known as Alpha. Instead of the Phoenix Force looking for hosts, its hereditarily passed down to the decedents of Alpha. AoA Jean, and Nate Grey are the last known decedents. I would love to see Nate Grey would interact with Rachel Summers or even Hope Summers.

Thats intresting about Nate.. Cant wait for the next big-Phoenix story-line where they bring back Jean.