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Cosmic Avengers

Silver Surfer
Nova
Gladiator
Quasar
Beta Ray Bill
Ronan



vs.



JLA

Superman
Wonder Woman
Captani Marvel
Orion
Green Lantern- Hal Jordan
Captain Atom

um isnt that GMH?

Really close.

Amazingly close match. It really could go either way.

quasar and surfer are the key factors, with all the enrgy offensives flying around there manip powers could turn the tide. Close, but edge to marvel for variety sakes.

Orion and Hal can match their firepower. Hal is a bit more experienced than Nova and could probably put him down for the count.

Slight edge for Cosmic Avengers.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Orion and Hal can match their firepower. Hal is a bit more experienced than Nova and could probably put him down for the count.
Experience in what? They both have different power sets and lifestyle.

Remember this is team battle.

i think bill could lock up with Orion for the duration of the match, Is this Nova with world mind?

I'd give the edge to the Avengers, on the whole the have more versatility IMO.

versatility wont be a problem. astro force astro and gl ring will cancel most things. plus i think ronan might be marvels weak link.

Orion uses the Astro Force to blast shit, Captain Atom is a bigger threat to the Avengers versatility than the Astro Force.

Originally posted by Prep-Man versatility wont be a problem. astro force astro and gl ring will cancel most things. plus i think ronan might be marvels weak link.

along with transmutation fundamental forces. plus a mother box. orion is a bit more versatile than atom.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
along with transmutation fundamental forces. plus a mother box. orion is a bit more versatile than atom.

I was just talking about the Astro Force not the Mother Box and everything in Orion's belt, but even then I would say Captain Atom is more versatile.

Dude created his own universe.

Who's the best tactician on Marvel's squad?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
plus i think ronan might be marvels weak link.

Yea, he can put up some fight but I don't see any foes who I'd grant him a win against.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin I was just talking about the Astro Force not the Mother Box and everything in Orion's belt, but even then I would say Captain Atom is more versatile. Dude created his own universe.

meh a lesser known new god created a baby universe and darkseid has created multiple realities.

Ronan is the weak link, but Surfer is the top dog. And Ronan will survive longer that Sups if Surfer begin against him.

For a guy who can create a universe. Seem to have problems with common super villains at times.
^
Is it even a battle feat?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
versatility wont be a problem. astro force astro and gl ring will cancel most things. plus i think ronan might be marvels weak link.

Boom tubes are really good battlefield removal options. They can even act as a black hole, sucking characters in.

Originally posted by cdtm
Boom tubes are really good battlefield removal options. They can even act as a black hole, sucking characters in. That is a neat idea.

Has Orion ever did that though? Curious.

Originally posted by vansonbee
That is a neat idea.

Has Orion ever did that though? Curious.

Using Tubes to suck in things?

Not Orion specifically, but Boom Tubes in general have done it before, like in an Armegeddon 2001 tie in when Supes narrowly beat Kalibak, and a Boom Tube suddenly appears and sucks in his unconscious form.

Or if you're asking if Orion can create Boom Tubes, then yes. He's done in before, and all mother boxes have the capability.

Originally posted by cdtm
Boom tubes are really good battlefield removal options. They can even act as a black hole, sucking characters in.

Nova can stargate people already. And Surfer has created blackholes just as an affect of his battle.

GMH take 6/10 in this. Surfer is a big factor in this while Beta Ray Bill can take it to Orion.

Marvel team for slight majority...IMO they have a tad more offensive capabilities than JLA

For the record they're not called the Cosmic Avengers ^_^

Originally posted by Psychopath001
For the record they're not called the Cosmic Avengers ^_^

Until now this what we will call them, but I think the cosmic avengers have ring ti it.

I'm thinking Ronan gets taken out early. Durability wise, he should be the weak link.

That leaves the door open for a double team on the DC side.. Maybe have Orion and Captain Atom team up on Surfer or something.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm thinking Ronan gets taken out early. Durability wise, he should be the weak link.

That leaves the door open for a double team on the DC side.. Maybe have Orion and Captain Atom team up on Surfer or something.

Well, it depends on how they get paired up really. If Surfer gets paired up against Superman and Quasar gets paired up with one of the energy manipulators (energy siphon ftw), could be a HUGE swing for the GMH side. However, Ronan is the weak link here and could get taken out early, making it a swing for the JLA's side. Thing is, the Worldmind would prolly be scan the combatants and inform the GMH to pair intelligently.

But the JLA team is solid as heck with no weakpoints other than Superman's weakness exploit problem.

Also, using the Boom Tube argument, Nova has actually USED his startgates offensively before. Unless Orion has had instances where he's used the Boom Tubes offensively, that type of argument actually helps the GMH side.

However, I will have to give this to the JLA. 5.5/10. Just no weak links and IF Superman -doesn't- get taken out early (via Surfer weakness exploit) it's almost sure that Ronan will be taken down by just about anyone in the JLA grp...

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Well, it depends on how they get paired up really. If Surfer gets paired up against Superman and Quasar gets paired up with one of the energy manipulators (energy siphon ftw), could be a HUGE swing for the GMH side. However, Ronan is the weak link here and could get taken out early, making it a swing for the JLA's side. Thing is, the Worldmind would prolly be scan the combatants and inform the GMH to pair intelligently.

Or Mother Box and Hal's GL ring could do the same...



Orion has, against the Bugs.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And Surfer has created blackholes just as an affect of his battle.



When? (answer: never)

Originally posted by Desaad
Or Mother Box and Hal's GL ring could do the same...

Worldmind has superior tactical/combat awareness feats. Unless you can post the GL/MB doing some pretty complex situational awareness/tactical analysis feats even remotely close to that of WM's.

Originally posted by Desaad
Orion has, against the Bugs.

Unless it beats Nova tearing apart a TON of Kree Sentries (who are each high meta level at minimum) with a single Stargate, I'd say Nova has the superior stargate offensive feat.

Not sure why you're debating with me, I actually support the JLA taking this.

Originally posted by Desaad
When? (answer: never)

I think what he meant was when Norrin created a large black hole during Annihilation. But that wasn't an aftereffect of a battle tho.

from marvel.com/universe/Ronan

Powers
Can currently adapt his body to survive any hostile environment. Strength-enhancing armor. Generate cold to put certain lifeforms into suspended animation. Render himself 'invisible'.

Weapons
Can disintegrate/transmute/rearrange matter, absorb/project energy blasts, create 'time-motion displacement fields', and achieve interstellar teleportation, using his universal weapon.


certainly not a weak link!

Originally posted by Desaad
When? (answer: never)

When? Annihilation: Surfer #1
Never? Yeah, you never read the book.
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8469/annihilationsilversurfe.th.jpg

Not when he battled Ravenous as D_Dude1210 points out. His jump did create it though.

Originally posted by Sandata
from marvel.com/universe/Ronan

Powers
Can currently adapt his body to survive any hostile environment. Strength-enhancing armor. Generate cold to put certain lifeforms into suspended animation. Render himself 'invisible'.

Weapons
Can disintegrate/transmute/rearrange matter, absorb/project energy blasts, create 'time-motion displacement fields', and achieve interstellar teleportation, using his universal weapon.


certainly not a weak link!

Exactly what I was about to say.

If anyone thinks Ronan is a weak link then you seriously need to go brush up on your marvel knowledge.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
When? Annihilation: Surfer #1
Never? Yeah, you never read the book.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Worldmind has superior tactical/combat awareness feats. Unless you can post the GL/MB doing some pretty complex situational awareness/tactical analysis feats even remotely close to that of WM's.



Unless it beats Nova tearing apart a TON of Kree Sentries (who are each high meta level at minimum) with a single Stargate, I'd say Nova has the superior stargate offensive feat.

Not sure why you're debating with me, I actually support the JLA taking this.

Mother Box can also scan for enemy weaknesses and danger. Orion has also constructed the Genesis Box, which had universal effecting feat.

GMH FTW.

Surfer & BRB flood the battlefield with red k, then siphon energies from the JLA while the rest run distraction.

Lol it aint CBR

If I had to choose, I'd say CJLA would win 5.5/10.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
If I had to choose, I'd say CJLA would win 5.5/10.

That's what I said!

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
When? Annihilation: Surfer #1
Never? Yeah, you never read the book.
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8469/annihilationsilversurfe.th.jpg

Not when he battled Ravenous as D_Dude1210 points out. His jump did create it though.

I did indeed read the book. Creating the Black Hole as an after effect of the battle - which is how you presented it - is not what happened.

So when did it happen? Never.

What you most likely did is get that instance confused with "Galactus: The Devourer" where he and Red Shift are fighting in a black hole.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Worldmind has superior tactical/combat awareness feats.

It's the same basic thing. The advice of the ring is less 'advice' and more information, but it's just as capable (if not more capable) of scanning and probing and giving information about a foe or situation. Same with the Mother Box, except it's advice does tend to be more a little more direct, though we never actually hear it (to us, it's pings, to the user it's telepathic).

My only point is that if you're going to give the Galactic Avengers team the benefit of consideration of tactical/strategic enhancers, it's only fair that you do the same to the other team, who have similar resources.







Again, I never said that Nova didn't have the 'superior' offensive feat. I simply said that Orion has used the Mother Box and Boom Tube offensively.



I'm not debating your overall outcome, just specific points or questions you're raising.

Jla because of Orion mostly

Originally posted by Sandata
from marvel.com/universe/Ronan

Powers
Can currently adapt his body to survive any hostile environment. Strength-enhancing armor. Generate cold to put certain lifeforms into suspended animation. Render himself 'invisible'.

Weapons
Can disintegrate/transmute/rearrange matter, absorb/project energy blasts, create 'time-motion displacement fields', and achieve interstellar teleportation, using his universal weapon.


certainly not a weak link!


Originally posted by Psychopath001
Exactly what I was about to say.

If anyone thinks Ronan is a weak link then you seriously need to go brush up on your marvel knowledge.

LOL, his bio doesnt mean a lot, on panel feats is the cake and what counts. In this thread, he has the lowest feats.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Jla because of Orion mostly

He can't take surfer , dave or kallark for anything approaching a comfortable majority but go ahead with that. I'll counter with Cosmic Avengers because of Surfer mostly.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Jla because of Orion mostly

He's a match for just about anyone, true. Telepathic immunity, resistance to having his molecules messed with, the Astro Force, and general toughness make him a beast..

And that's without factoring in Mother Box.

But he likely isn't soloing.

CA win the majority, they are to verstaile for JLA. 5 out 6 of CA are energy manipulators as where the JLA has three GL and Capatin Atom, Orion. Truth be told as badass as Orion is he is no match against Silver Surfer who would beat the crap out of him, even Beta Ray Bill and Gladiator will take Orion too his limits.

Superman could be for the first time a weak link, Quasar And Silver Surfer can siphon off his solar energy at whim, and Silver Surfer, Quasar with there cosmic awareness will have advantage over JLA. But JLA wont go down without of fight and a fight it will be, hell this would be a great mini series right now.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Cosmic Avengers

Silver Surfer
Nova
Gladiator
Quasar
Beta Ray Bill
Ronan



vs.



JLA

Superman
Wonder Woman
Captani Marvel
Orion
Green Lantern- Hal Jordan
Captain Atom

As for the actual battle, it's a pretty even one.

Ronan is the obvious weak link between the two, but Wonder Woman isn't THAT much better. Captain Atom sort of vacillates between extremely high effectiveness and power(in his crossover to the Wildstorm universe, for instance, or the guy who creates and destroys universes both as Monarch and normal Captain Atom) and extremely low effectiveness and power (the guy who gets taken out by a sidewinder missile to the face). I'd be interested in seeing him go up against Quasar, if only because of the similar nature of their abilities (both tapping into the quantum field, both capable of absorbing vast amounts of energy, with Atom actually able to manipulate matter).

Silver Surfer and Beta Ray Bill are the two heavies on the Marvel team, and I'd say that Orion and Hal are their best matches on the other. BRB vs Orion is a great battle, but one in which I give Orion the edge 6/10. They are similar in a lot of respects, but I'd say Orion is faster and more skilled in hand to hand.

Silver vs Hal is a push, as far as I'm concerned. Both of them are hugely powerful, Hal is more effective with the Surfer having more raw power. Both are essentially infinitely versatile. 50/50 there for me.

Gladiator vs Supes could go either way as well, though I'm tempted to give the slight edge to Superman just due to the greater number of feats he's got. I think they are essentially on par in every respect though.

Every individual contest is going to be a tight one, IMHO. But the DC team squeaks it out.

Originally posted by Desaad
It's the same basic thing. The advice of the ring is less 'advice' and more information, but it's just as capable (if not more capable) of scanning and probing and giving information about a foe or situation. Same with the Mother Box, except it's advice does tend to be more a little more direct, though we never actually hear it (to us, it's pings, to the user it's telepathic).

The Worldmind functions much more than a sensor/scanner it works as a tactical resource/database as well as controls his hormonal balance, as well as the Nova Force. It's a completely independent consciousness that guides, suggests, warns, teaches and pushes Nova to meet the myriad of tactical/combat situations he faces.

Tho the MB has a lot of functions that the WM cannot replicate (such as matter manipulation), you'll have to show the independent tactical savvy and situational awareness that is provided by the WM.

GL rings function as scanning/sensing/database devices. I've never seen them (but I do agree that I'm not as well read GL-wise as a lot of people here) function as even close to the WM as an independent self-aware tactical resource.

Originally posted by Desaad
My only point is that if you're going to give the Galactic Avengers team the benefit of consideration of tactical/strategic enhancers, it's only fair that you do the same to the other team, who have similar resources.

Both sides have "similar resources". It's just that the level of tactical advantage provided by the Worldmind is superior, and thus, more of a factor here.

Originally posted by Desaad
Again, I never said that Nova didn't have the 'superior' offensive feat. I simply said that Orion has used the Mother Box and Boom Tube offensively.

MY point was in response to someone (not you) suggesting that the Boom Tube can be used offensively. The point is, Nova's offensive use of his BFR abilities have been shown to be much more effective offensively and is actually a better tactical argument in favor for the GMH than it is for the JLA.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
The Worldmind functions much more than a sensor/scanner it works as a tactical resource/database as well as controls his hormonal balance, as well as the Nova Force. It's a completely independent consciousness that guides, suggests, warns, teaches and pushes Nova to meet the myriad of tactical/combat situations he faces.

From what I've seen, in battle, it's mostly saying "Rich, over on your left! Rich, over on your right! That thing is really powerful!"

It's not really giving any weaknesses or weak spots, or even telling Rich the way he needs to attack. He figured out how to defeat Xenith, for instance, not Worldmind. And in some ways, it feels almost a slower interface than would a direct mind-to-weapon connection, as Rich has to say "Left gauntlet, 30% gravitmetric pulse" or what have you, rather than simply thinking it.



I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. Are you talking about direct guidance? She specifically instructed and allowed, for instance, Swamp Thing to change the way his energy matrix oscillated so that he and Metron could penetrate/travel through the source and space/time. Or maybe you mean the way that Mother Box enhanced Iron Man's senses, allowing him to 'know' and 'feel' that the Flash was coming, and exactly how/when to attack? Or do you mean simply aiding the hero based on the situation, as one did to Superman when he faced Doomsday, arming him with a bunch of weapons that he would need for the specific situation? Or, like, when it tells Orion the nature of the type of energy he faces so he can defeat it? Or give the backstory on Billion Dollar Bates based on a scan of a giant, bloated clone (ie, the history of the foe?) Or warning Orion that the self destruction of the building he's in has just been activated? Or when a time -distortion field is being directed at him?

It's even been used as a sort of Worldmind, in Starman. I think the real difference is that normally it's not verbal, it's not overt, so it doesn't seem like it is saying or doing as much, but it's always there advising and helping...supporting. That's what a mother does. (in the example I used from starman, Orion encodes a mother box with the personality anagrams of Ted Knight, the original Starman, to help Jack Knight on his space journey...and he gives advice and warns him of this and that).



What I'm saying is that with a savvy enough mind at the helm of one of these devices, the difference is almost nonexistent. Maybe Rich, who is a bit more inexperienced, needs someone to tell him how to do things, but these guys generally do not (and, really, Rich doesn't either -- he often times ignores the greater strategies or specific advice put forth by Worldmind and does his own thing, which tends to be MORE successful). These devices give real time information about their foes' natures and weaknesses and incoming attacks, and I think that's good enough.





I think the real difference is pretty small.





I think both are pretty uncommon and unlikely, but I'd agree with you. I was simply answering your question as to whether Orion has never done so. He has, like once in his entire career.

Originally posted by Juk3n
He can't take surfer , dave or kallark for anything approaching a comfortable majority but go ahead with that. I'll counter with Cosmic Avengers because of Surfer mostly. Atleast I didnt say Orion solos

Originally posted by Desaad
Silver vs Hal is a push, as far as I'm concerned. Both of them are hugely powerful, Hal is more effective with the Surfer having more raw power. Both are essentially infinitely versatile. 50/50 there for me. Objection: bullsh1t.

Response: Don't give a shit.

^ Translation: Got jack-sh1t to make an argument.

vin

Originally posted by Juk3n
He can't take surfer , dave or kallark for anything approaching a comfortable majority but go ahead with that. I'll counter with Cosmic Avengers because of Surfer mostly.
Orion would take Gladiator for a majority.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Translation: Got jack-sh1t to make an argument.

vin

Yeah, you put so much effort into your response, it was really a shame for me to just leave it like that.

I'm simply not going to take your flamebait.

^ Not flamebait.

Just pointing out the absurdity of your comment. Feel free to substantiate it and I won't flame, I'll rebut. Don't expect me to hold my breath.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Not flamebait.

It's absolutely flamebait. Rather than respond to my opinion reasonably and with logical or evidence, you opted to start with 'bullshit'.

You're not inviting debate, you're just being ornery, and it's not worth my time or energy.

If you'd like to demonstrate a real desire to debate, feel free, but if not, it's not worth my time.

^ I want to know your real reasons for asserting that Hal is "more effective" than Surfer and that he is just as "infinitely versatile" as Surfer.

this is a very, very close fight. I think depending on who fights who will determine the fights outcome more then whoms team has the bigger powerhouse. like superman and surfer for instance, i no surfer with his cosmic awareness can detect just about any opponents weakness, yes he can produce red sun radiation, but as for the kryptonite thats the big IF. As of current DC story lines all supermens are only effected by their original universes Kryptonite, like how KC Superman and superboy prime were not effected by Kryptonite that wasn't from their universe. Mind u when superboy was facing the legion of three worlds, it was only the element lad from earth prime that was able to create the rite type of Krp to hurt him. the other then as will is absorption of his solar energy, not saying it can be done, just not as quickly as most seem to think. the more stress his under the more solar energy he absorbs, and i doute he would stay still long enough for that to happen. aww 5/5 for both team

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I want to know your real reasons for asserting that Hal is "more effective" than Surfer and that he is just as "infinitely versatile" as Surfer.

My reasons are that Hal is a more competent fighter than Surfer has been historically, just based on the very different natures of the character, and that pulling out the win has always been his thing, and that looking back at Green Lantern's history his ring has essentially done everything that heralds have proven capable of doing, from matter manipulation to teleportation to energy blasts to whatever.

^ You're basing Hal's superior competency in fighting on his differing nature? Have you considered his vulnerabilities? Where, if he puts too much willpower into a single construct and it's shattered, he'll receive crippling feedback? Or if he puts too much willpower into a single action, someone like Batman can punch him in the face? Or that people with superspeed can simply steal his ring and instantly depower him? Or that light manipulators can completely subvert his constructs back against him?

And on equal versatility: Are you aware that Green Lanterns can't teleport anymore (think to Blackest Night when the Indigo Tribe was the only means of instant teleportation)? Or that their matter manipulation capabilities are thrown into complete doubt now (since Stewart couldn't even transmute simple oxygen)?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You're basing Hal's superior competency in fighting on his differing nature? Have you considered his vulnerabilities? Where, if he puts too much willpower into a single construct and it's shattered, he'll receive crippling feedback? Or if he puts too much willpower into a single action, someone like Batman can punch him in the face? Or that people with superspeed can simply steal his ring and instantly depower him? Or that light manipulators can completely subvert his constructs back against him?

And on equal versatility: Are you aware that Green Lanterns can't teleport anymore (think to Blackest Night when the Indigo Tribe was the only means of instant teleportation)? Or that their matter manipulation capabilities are thrown into complete doubt now (since Stewart couldn't even transmute simple oxygen)?

Good points.

GL's CAN teleport. Geoff Johns just seems to forget that.

Avengers.Surfer and quasar(if they can get a strategy)are too much.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You're basing Hal's superior competency in fighting on his differing nature?

His differing mindset, yeah.




"Crippling" seems strong, but yes, absolutely, that has to be taken into account. That said, he's faced many top tier foes without that being a major issue, and when he's motivated and ready for a 1v1 battle I doubt it'll make much difference.




Sure, if Batman can get past him. But, for my money, in any 1v1 contest Surfer is going to have his hands too full with Hal - especially a fully concentrating Hal - to somehow sneak around and tag him.




Hal's record against Super Speedsters is pretty damn good, actually, and against super speedsters with far faster reaction speed than the Silver Surfer.





Again, Hal has a pretty good record against both energy absorbers and energy manipulators. While Dr. Light was certainly able to manipulate Kyle's constructs quite nicely, he wasn't able to do the same against Hal. In fact, I can think of at least one instance of Hal turning Dr. Light's constructs against him.





No, I'm not 'aware' because the opinion of one writer, no matter how pervasive his work with the characters is, doesn't represent the entirity of that character's history. Was the Silver Surfer nothing more than a guy with super strength and energy blasts during the Starlin run? Did he lose all of his other powers during that period? Or was it just the take of one writer?

Hal, and Green Lanterns in general, have a fairly long and consistent history of teleporting. And yes, Hal has done it fairly recently, in Brave and the Bold.





I have to say, it seems as though you WANT it to be thrown into doubt. Not only does Hal have a long history of transmuting matter, not only do GL's have a long history of transmuting matter, but even by the most restrictive caveats Hal has shown matter transmutation abilities. Again, in Brave and the Bold.

Before this goes any further, I should mention that Pre-Crisis history is in continuity as far as I (and GL writers) are concerned. I recognize that there is a trend to limit the versatility and 'plot deviceness' of characters in the modern age - by most writers, anyway - but that doesn't wipe away any of that old continuity, anymore than the Silver Age Surfer/Thor stories aren't valid because of their silliness.

I believe we've gone over this ad nauseum in the past, and I know you don't agree, so it might be better that we leave it here. I'd be more than willing to continue if you want, though.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
GL's CAN teleport. Geoff Johns just seems to forget that.

lol

JLA for a very, very slight majority.

Good matchup and could go either way.

Originally posted by tkitna
JLA for a very, very slight majority.

Good matchup and could go either way. mostly because of Orion

Originally posted by Prep-Man
GL's CAN teleport. Geoff Johns just seems to forget that.

True.

John Stewarts done it in the Burning Martian story, as has Hal's good half in Last Will and Testament, to name a few.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Cosmic Avengers

Silver Surfer
Nova
Gladiator
Quasar
Beta Ray Bill
Ronan



vs.



JLA

Superman
Wonder Woman
Captani Marvel
Orion
Green Lantern- Hal Jordan
Captain Atom

Superman beats everyone on the Marvel team except Surfer
Wonder Woman Can Likely only beat Nova and Ronan. But she's so close that she could hold Gladiator, or BRB off for a very long time.
Captain Marvel is like WW but Better. So He could maybe stalemate the People she could only hold off.
Orion can beat everyone on the Marvel Team but Surfer. But he could stalemate him if he fought like he did in his series.
Hal Jordan can beat everyone but Surfer and He could maybe match Quasar if he doesn't get Drained in the first few seconds.
Captain Atom is the wild Card. He's one of the best energy manipulators in comics and he's pretty tuff and strong.


I have to say split. Surfer is not getting beaten for a majority with any certainty by anyone on the DC team. But Ronan is getting beaten by every one on the DC team very fastly. Leaving Two on one for DC easily.

Nova is shit. He's been a hero for like 2 days. How's he gonna really beat anyone on the DC team with all the experience they have?

Give Marvel Thor instead of Ronan and They win.

Originally posted by Desaad
I did indeed read the book. Creating the Black Hole as an after effect of the battle - which is how you presented it - is not what happened.

So when did it happen? Never.

What you most likely did is get that instance confused with "Galactus: The Devourer" where he and Red Shift are fighting in a black hole.

Lol, he just did even easier by flying away. The point is a black hole was created with him not even trying. Thought it was something but turns out you're just being picky.

It's not about the ease, it's about the propensity to use in a combat situation.

Originally posted by Desaad
From what I've seen, in battle, it's mostly saying "Rich, over on your left! Rich, over on your right! That thing is really powerful!"

It's not really giving any weaknesses or weak spots, or even telling Rich the way he needs to attack. He figured out how to defeat Xenith, for instance, not Worldmind. And in some ways, it feels almost a slower interface than would a direct mind-to-weapon connection, as Rich has to say "Left gauntlet, 30% gravitmetric pulse" or what have you, rather than simply thinking it.

Actually, I think you missed some of the better feats that the Worldmind has shown. One example is in Annihilation: Conquest, it allowed a basic Nova Centurion to outmaneuver and ultimately trap the Nova Prime via the use of clever timing, tactical and situational analysis as well as knowing at almost pinpoint precision/detail the schematics of an entire alien environment (allowing her to use the environment against him). It's been able to work independently to support its host in times of crisis (such as when Rider got fried and needed to be hidden to be given time to heal, he reached out and deputized someone).

The main difference between the Worldmind and MB is that the WM is a separate sentient entity complete with its own unique personality, knowledge (w/c he shares with his host), memories, experiences and insight on every situation. A second set of eyes and ears (and a myriad of sensors/scanners as well) as well as something that helps manage the whole Nova Force and his mental/bodily functions.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. Are you talking about direct guidance? She specifically instructed and allowed, for instance, Swamp Thing to change the way his energy matrix oscillated so that he and Metron could penetrate/travel through the source and space/time. Or maybe you mean the way that Mother Box enhanced Iron Man's senses, allowing him to 'know' and 'feel' that the Flash was coming, and exactly how/when to attack? Or do you mean simply aiding the hero based on the situation, as one did to Superman when he faced Doomsday, arming him with a bunch of weapons that he would need for the specific situation? Or, like, when it tells Orion the nature of the type of energy he faces so he can defeat it? Or give the backstory on Billion Dollar Bates based on a scan of a giant, bloated clone (ie, the history of the foe?) Or warning Orion that the self destruction of the building he's in has just been activated? Or when a time -distortion field is being directed at him?

It's even been used as a sort of Worldmind, in Starman. I think the real difference is that normally it's not verbal, it's not overt, so it doesn't seem like it is saying or doing as much, but it's always there advising and helping...supporting. That's what a mother does. (in the example I used from starman, Orion encodes a mother box with the personality anagrams of Ted Knight, the original Starman, to help Jack Knight on his space journey...and he gives advice and warns him of this and that).

The Surfer has been able to duplicate these feats as well on his own. But there is a stark difference between being fed all the information you need versus having someone watch your back and objectively advise you on every situation as well as feed you info.

Originally posted by Desaad
What I'm saying is that with a savvy enough mind at the helm of one of these devices, the difference is almost nonexistent. Maybe Rich, who is a bit more inexperienced, needs someone to tell him how to do things, but these guys generally do not (and, really, Rich doesn't either -- he often times ignores the greater strategies or specific advice put forth by Worldmind and does his own thing, which tends to be MORE successful). These devices give real time information about their foes' natures and weaknesses and incoming attacks, and I think that's good enough.

Rider is not the same inexperienced rookie that he used to be. I think I'll go as far as to say that he's one of the most tactically savvy superheroes out there, using his mind (and subtle uses of the Nova Force) to defeat a lot of his more powerful foes rather than just simply brute force.

You cannot discount the benefit of a second insight and second pair of eyes. Even when you're focused on something, another person tells you that you're missing or not noticing something. There is just so much more you are afforded with that than simply being provided all the information immediately.

Originally posted by Desaad
I think the real difference is pretty small.

I see your points but I really don't agree.

Originally posted by Desaad
I think both are pretty uncommon and unlikely, but I'd agree with you. I was simply answering your question as to whether Orion has never done so. He has, like once in his entire career.

I'll agree with you here. Like I said, it was simply to respond to what someone else brought up.

Originally posted by Desaad
It's not about the ease, it's about the propensity to use in a combat situation.

The Surfer HAS commented that he could open Singularities inside ppl's eyes if he wanted to (Silver Surfer: In Thy Name). Not that he's ever done it before.

@ D_Dude. The Mother Box is also a separate entity as well. Each New God has to earn it's trust and has a mind of it's own.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
@ D_Dude. The Mother Box is also a separate entity as well. Each New God has to earn it's trust and has a mind of it's own.

But has it demonstrated the type of symbiosis that the WM constantly has?

Yes?

I haven't been following it's symbiosis, so I'm not sure.

I want to address the full points later, but for the moment...yeah, Mother Box is it's own thing, to the point that it abandoned Orion when he started becoming evil, it scolds him as a mother does for not taking advice, it mourns (and kills itself) when it's user dies...That's why it's called a Mother Box. It's not just a name, it's actually the way it functions (nurturing it's user spiritually and emotionally while protecting and facilitating it physically) .

The WM has empowered, managed and coordinated thousands of centurians, all while running the entire planet of Xandar. It can give not only Nova, but also everyone on the team tactical backing.

Mother Box is a bit more versatile, though.

Even if if true it means nothing in this battle. WM can help everyone on the field in realtime. That's what counts here.

MB's can also connect with others, if the users desire it to be so. Telepathic communication and all.

Originally posted by Desaad
It's not about the ease, it's about the propensity to use in a combat situation.
Yeah but whether or not he "used it in a combat situation" kinda depends on how you define the concept. I mean the guys weren't right there with him when he set off the blast because he left combat to have a final moment with Airwalker, but unless I'm remembering wrong they were in pursuit of Surfer and they did fly out of the blackhole that formed afterwards so they did get hit by it.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
MB's can also connect with others, if the users desire it to be so. Telepathic communication and all. So this has been demonstrated on panel during combat situations or are you just speculating? The WM has done it on panel. Several times.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
if the users desire it to be so.

Keyword is "if the user desires it to be so". The WM does it because he most of the time knows better than Rider does what a specific situation entails.

Yes, it has. Hell, Barda used the MB to absorb Scott's soul in battle. It can do a lot more than communicate and give tips in battle.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Yes, it has. Hell, Barda used the MB to absorb Scott's soul in battle. It can do a lot more than communicate and give tips in battle.

W/c isn't the point. No1 disputes that the Motherbox has many other versatile feats over that of the WM. What we're saying is that, the WM is a far better tactical resource than the MB due to the nature of how the WM works.

If they've both done the same thing, how is the WM better

Originally posted by Prep-Man
If they've both done the same thing, how is the WM better

Capabilities-wise they seem similar. But the realtime tactical support provided by the WM has been shown to be far more effective. Sure, the MB has more frills, more versatile abilities and can do a lot of what the WM can do. But not at the level that the WM does it. A Military Supercomputer might not have the same features as an iphone, but it's better at what it does.

Sigh. Just show an instance where the MB has been able to affect the outcome of a battle thru tactical savvy that a person 1/1000th the power of another wins the fight primarily because of how the MB guided it.

Orion's MB scanning for weaknesses against Darkseid? Orion's Father Box creating a weapon designed to kill Darkseid? And I think Barda's fused with Scott's soul battling an amped Darkseid in another Nail. Not necessarily in continuity, but they say there is only one set of New Gods.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Orion's MB scanning for weaknesses against Darkseid? Orion's Father Box creating a weapon designed to kill Darkseid? And I think Barda's fused with Scott's soul battling an amped Darkseid in another Nail. Not necessarily in continuity, but they say there is only one set of New Gods.

Weakness scanning is very basic, WM has that, SS has that, GL rings has that. I meant something more of a tactical resource feat.

Again, the weapon creation and the soul fusion are some of the abilities that they have that ISN'T really a tactical resource in nature. No one is disputing the WM's versatility (tho SS versatility more than compensates for this). Just the tactical resource effectiveness.

What makes WM more advance than a MB? What makes it more effective?

cosmic avengers.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
GL's CAN teleport. Geoff Johns just seems to forget that. GL's can't teleport. Otherwise, that notion wouldn't have been outright stated by GLs and the Indigo Tribe during Blackest Night. If GLs could teleport they wouldn't be caught in nearly half of the messes they find themselves in. Originally posted by Desaad
His differing mindset, yeah.Hal's about precision and doing precisely what's needed to get the job done. That doesn't make you more combat effective in a fight unless you're actually capable of getting the job done. And Surfer's superior versatility and sheer power differential make him far more capable of getting jobs done.Originally posted by Desaad
"Crippling" seems strong, but yes, absolutely, that has to be taken into account. That said, he's faced many top tier foes without that being a major issue, and when he's motivated and ready for a 1v1 battle I doubt it'll make much difference.

Sure, if Batman can get past him. But, for my money, in any 1v1 contest Surfer is going to have his hands too full with Hal - especially a fully concentrating Hal - to somehow sneak around and tag him."Crippling" was an understatement. Most GLs get completely knocked unconscious due to feedback. And against a foe like Surfer, feedback from his constructs shattering will make a difference.

You mean like how Surfer habitually uses his board to hit his foes from behind? Originally posted by Desaad
Hal's record against Super Speedsters is pretty damn good, actually, and against super speedsters with far faster reaction speed than the Silver Surfer.

Again, Hal has a pretty good record against both energy absorbers and energy manipulators. While Dr. Light was certainly able to manipulate Kyle's constructs quite nicely, he wasn't able to do the same against Hal. In fact, I can think of at least one instance of Hal turning Dr. Light's constructs against him. Against Barry? When they're not really fighting? Who he knows like his own brother? I hope you're not going to cite him chaining up Zoom for all of two seconds before Zoom escapes. Superspeed > GLs.

Not on Surfer's level. Tangent Flash did it too recently. Only time I've seen Hal turn Dr. Light's own power on him was pre-Crisis. I can't remember the last time a GL beat an energy manipulator at his own game of energy manipulation. Originally posted by Desaad
No, I'm not 'aware' because the opinion of one writer, no matter how pervasive his work with the characters is, doesn't represent the entirity of that character's history. Was the Silver Surfer nothing more than a guy with super strength and energy blasts during the Starlin run? Did he lose all of his other powers during that period? Or was it just the take of one writer?

Hal, and Green Lanterns in general, have a fairly long and consistent history of teleporting. And yes, Hal has done it fairly recently, in Brave and the Bold. Obviously the writers define what GLs can or cannot do. But whether or not you think it's fair, GLs inability to teleport has been made clear for the past decade or more. I'm not going to waste time arguing this point.

Hulk had a long history of not being able to breathe underwater or in space. He'd even pass out. Now he can. Do we take what's current over what used to be consistent? Yes, we do. Not applying it simply because it makes your favorite characters "weaker" or "less versatile" is a double-standard. I don't remember Hal teleporting in Brave and the Bold. Feel free to post it, and I'll post the dozen+ scans where GLs outright state they can't teleport or had to rely on boosters/hyperspace travel to get from point A to point B. Then we can weigh this evidence. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this. Originally posted by Desaad
I have to say, it seems as though you WANT it to be thrown into doubt. Not only does Hal have a long history of transmuting matter, not only do GL's have a long history of transmuting matter, but even by the most restrictive caveats Hal has shown matter transmutation abilities. Again, in Brave and the Bold. Show me the last time Hal transmuted matter. I'll show the dozen+ times where transmuting matter even in the most simple and basic form would have solved a GLs crisis and the scan that literally states they can't create oxygen. Then we can weigh this evidence again. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
GL's can't teleport. Otherwise, that notion wouldn't have been outright stated by GLs and the Indigo Tribe during Blackest Night. If GLs could teleport they wouldn't be caught in nearly half of the messes they find themselves in. Hal's about precision and doing precisely what's needed to get the job done. That doesn't make you more combat effective in a fight unless you're actually capable of getting the job done. And Surfer's superior versatility and sheer power differential make him far more capable of getting jobs done."Crippling" was an understatement. Most GLs get completely knocked unconscious due to feedback. And against a foe like Surfer, feedback from his constructs shattering will make a difference.

You mean like how Surfer habitually uses his board to hit his foes from behind? Against Barry? When they're not really fighting? Who he knows like his own brother? I hope you're not going to cite him chaining up Zoom for all of two seconds before Zoom escapes. Superspeed > GLs.

Not on Surfer's level. Tangent Flash did it too recently. Only time I've seen Hal turn Dr. Light's own power on him was pre-Crisis. I can't remember the last time a GL beat an energy manipulator at his own game of energy manipulation. Obviously the writers define what GLs can or cannot do. But whether or not you think it's fair, GLs inability to teleport has been made clear for the past decade or more. I'm not going to waste time arguing this point.

Hulk had a long history of not being able to breathe underwater or in space. He'd even pass out. Now he can. Do we take what's current over what used to be consistent? Yes, we do. Not applying it simply because it makes your favorite characters "weaker" or "less versatile" is a double-standard. I don't remember Hal teleporting in Brave and the Bold. Feel free to post it, and I'll post the dozen+ scans where GLs outright state they can't teleport or had to rely on boosters/hyperspace travel to get from point A to point B. Then we can weigh this evidence. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this. Show me the last time Hal transmuted matter. I'll show the dozen+ times where transmuting matter even in the most simple and basic form would have solved a GLs crisis and the scan that literally states they can't create oxygen. Then we can weigh this evidence again. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this. Ouch.

Originally posted by Desaad
Before this goes any further, I should mention that Pre-Crisis history is in continuity as far as I (and GL writers) are concerned. I recognize that there is a trend to limit the versatility and 'plot deviceness' of characters in the modern age - by most writers, anyway - but that doesn't wipe away any of that old continuity, anymore than the Silver Age Surfer/Thor stories aren't valid because of their silliness.

I believe we've gone over this ad nauseum in the past, and I know you don't agree, so it might be better that we leave it here. I'd be more than willing to continue if you want, though. Finally, analogizing pre-Crisis with Silver Age Marvel stories is idiotic. Marvel never retconned their history. DC did. You reference Surfer and Thor? You have any idea how much weaker/limited they were back during the Silver Age as compared to now? Your analogy is terrible.

Second, you obviously have no effing clue of the lengths that Marvel goes to, to preserve the original stories down to the smallest details. First Avengers' story in Avengers #1 involved Hulk joining a circus in clown-paint and acting like a robot to hide from the military. Avengers: The Origin -- a limited series being published right now -- literally expands on that exact plot down to the name of the robot: Mechano. Loki got beat when he changed into a radioactive state in that story where Pym simply dropped him into a lead container at the end of Avengers #1. There have been at least three stories decades later that reference and preserve and explain why that actually worked. I can cite to dozens, if not a hundred, such instances of this same type of zealous preservation for countless other stories for countless other characters for Marvel.

You continuing to reach back to pre-Crisis times only highlights and underscores the largest flaw in your argumentation: a patent disregard for anything in current stories that serves to "weaken" your favorite character despite how clearly and plainly it's portrayed, but turning right around and accepting all current stories that serve to "strengthen" your favorite character. Double-standard is double-standard anyway you slice it.


And another point to consider: DC proponents get more slack than most even bother to point out when it comes to the convoluted history of DC. There have been no less than three different Zods post-Crisis. Nobody's arguing that Superman's showings against Azzarello's Phantom Zone Zod got wiped away from continuity. Even though you justifiably could argue that Infinite Crisis and 52 retconned it so that the first time current Superman ever personally met anyone named Zod, was in Superman: Last Son. So frankly, crying victim is about the last thing pre-Crisis proponents ought to be doing.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Finally, analogizing pre-Crisis with Silver Age Marvel stories is idiotic. Marvel never retconned their history. DC did. You reference Surfer and Thor? You have any idea how much weaker/limited they were back during the Silver Age as compared to now? Your analogy is terrible.

Second, you obviously have no effing clue of the lengths that Marvel goes to, to preserve the original stories down to the smallest details. First Avengers' story in Avengers #1 involved Hulk joining a circus in clown-paint and acting like a robot to hide from the military. Avengers: The Origin -- a limited series being published right now -- literally expands on that exact plot down to the name of the robot: Mechano. Loki got beat when he changed into a radioactive state in that story where Pym simply dropped him into a lead container at the end of Avengers #1. There have been at least three stories decades later that reference and preserve and explain why that actually worked. I can cite to dozens, if not a hundred, such instances of this same type of zealous preservation for countless other stories for countless other characters for Marvel.

You continuing to reach back to pre-Crisis times only highlights and underscores the largest flaw in your argumentation: a patent disregard for anything in current stories that serves to "weaken" your favorite character despite how clearly and plainly it's portrayed, but turning right around and accepting all current stories that serve to "strengthen" your favorite character. Double-standard is double-standard anyway you slice it.


And another point to consider: DC proponents get more slack than most even bother to point out when it comes to the convoluted history of DC. There have been no less than three different Zods post-Crisis. Nobody's arguing that Superman's showings against Azzarello's Phantom Zone Zod got wiped away from continuity. Even though you justifiably could argue that Infinite Crisis and 52 retconned it so that the first time current Superman ever personally met anyone named Zod, was in Superman: Last Son. So frankly, crying victim is about the last thing pre-Crisis proponents ought to be doing.


This was awsome

ca

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Finally, analogizing pre-Crisis with Silver Age Marvel stories is idiotic. Marvel never retconned their history. DC did. You reference Surfer and Thor? You have any idea how much weaker/limited they were back during the Silver Age as compared to now? Your analogy is terrible.

Second, you obviously have no effing clue of the lengths that Marvel goes to, to preserve the original stories down to the smallest details. First Avengers' story in Avengers #1 involved Hulk joining a circus in clown-paint and acting like a robot to hide from the military. Avengers: The Origin -- a limited series being published right now -- literally expands on that exact plot down to the name of the robot: Mechano. Loki got beat when he changed into a radioactive state in that story where Pym simply dropped him into a lead container at the end of Avengers #1. There have been at least three stories decades later that reference and preserve and explain why that actually worked. I can cite to dozens, if not a hundred, such instances of this same type of zealous preservation for countless other stories for countless other characters for Marvel.

You continuing to reach back to pre-Crisis times only highlights and underscores the largest flaw in your argumentation: a patent disregard for anything in current stories that serves to "weaken" your favorite character despite how clearly and plainly it's portrayed, but turning right around and accepting all current stories that serve to "strengthen" your favorite character. Double-standard is double-standard anyway you slice it.


And another point to consider: DC proponents get more slack than most even bother to point out when it comes to the convoluted history of DC. There have been no less than three different Zods post-Crisis. Nobody's arguing that Superman's showings against Azzarello's Phantom Zone Zod got wiped away from continuity. Even though you justifiably could argue that Infinite Crisis and 52 retconned it so that the first time current Superman ever personally met anyone named Zod, was in Superman: Last Son. So frankly, crying victim is about the last thing pre-Crisis proponents ought to be doing. Ohew.

Yes, GL's CAN teleport. Kyle has done it and Hal has recently done it. I don't know why you guys fight this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Finally, analogizing pre-Crisis with Silver Age Marvel stories is idiotic. Marvel never retconned their history. DC did. You reference Surfer and Thor? You have any idea how much weaker/limited they were back during the Silver Age as compared to now? Your analogy is terrible.

Second, you obviously have no effing clue of the lengths that Marvel goes to, to preserve the original stories down to the smallest details. First Avengers' story in Avengers #1 involved Hulk joining a circus in clown-paint and acting like a robot to hide from the military. Avengers: The Origin -- a limited series being published right now -- literally expands on that exact plot down to the name of the robot: Mechano. Loki got beat when he changed into a radioactive state in that story where Pym simply dropped him into a lead container at the end of Avengers #1. There have been at least three stories decades later that reference and preserve and explain why that actually worked. I can cite to dozens, if not a hundred, such instances of this same type of zealous preservation for countless other stories for countless other characters for Marvel.

You continuing to reach back to pre-Crisis times only highlights and underscores the largest flaw in your argumentation: a patent disregard for anything in current stories that serves to "weaken" your favorite character despite how clearly and plainly it's portrayed, but turning right around and accepting all current stories that serve to "strengthen" your favorite character. Double-standard is double-standard anyway you slice it.


And another point to consider: DC proponents get more slack than most even bother to point out when it comes to the convoluted history of DC. There have been no less than three different Zods post-Crisis. Nobody's arguing that Superman's showings against Azzarello's Phantom Zone Zod got wiped away from continuity. Even though you justifiably could argue that Infinite Crisis and 52 retconned it so that the first time current Superman ever personally met anyone named Zod, was in Superman: Last Son. So frankly, crying victim is about the last thing pre-Crisis proponents ought to be doing.

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6549/icameghostbuster.jpg

Kyle Teleporting his crew.
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4818/greenlantern17209.th.jpg
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4818/greenlantern17209.jpg

Kyle Teleporting.
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7200/greenlanternv2175joxerd.th.jpghttp://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7200/greenlanternv2175joxerd.th.jpg
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7200/greenlanternv2175joxerd.jpg
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7200/greenlanternv2175joxerd.jpg

Team avengers 7 or 8/10. Too many power house. I'm glad Thor wasnt included.

thanks for the scans. There was another of Kyle teleoporting Superman and Batman as well.

I for one think this is a close match. Impossible to tell who would win, since you have to many factors coming in from both sides.

Superman vs Gladiator: Supermam edges out.
Quasar vs GL Hall: to close to call
Beta Ray Bill vs Orion: to close to call
Ronan vs Wonderwomen: Wonder Women edges out
Silver Surfer vs Captain Atom: Silver Surfer
Nova vs Captain Marvel: I don’t know enough about Captain Marvel to decided or give an opinion.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
thanks for the scans. There was another of Kyle teleoporting Superman and Batman as well.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5974/act784pg11.th.jpghttp://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9786/act784pg12.th.jpg


http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5974/act784pg11.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9786/act784pg12.jpg

scans are great, but Kyle GL (the most powerful one ) isnt in this fight, the Underling is. Scans of Hal teleporting WITHOUT plot device amp please?

I'm trying to find the B&B scan.

Originally posted by "Id"
I for one think this is a close match. Impossible to tell who would win, since you have to many factors coming in from both sides.

Superman vs Gladiator: Supermam edges out.
Quasar vs GL Hall: to close to call
Beta Ray Bill vs Orion: to close to call
Ronan vs Wonderwomen: Wonder Women edges out
Silver Surfer vs Captain Atom: Silver Surfer
Nova vs Captain Marvel: I don’t know enough about Captain Marvel to decided or give an opinion.



http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5974/act784pg11.th.jpghttp://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9786/act784pg12.th.jpg


http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5974/act784pg11.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9786/act784pg12.jpg Nova vs Captain Marvel: I don’t know enough about Captain Marvel to decided or give an opinion. Well what do you know about Superman?

Id, you think Superman edges out Gladiator?

But aren't Glads highs better then Supermans highs?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
What makes WM more advance than a MB? What makes it more effective?

WM isn't more advanced.

Not arguing that the MB can't do what the WM can do. In fact, I'm pretty convinced that the MB is more versatile than the WM. Again, Iphones/Ipads are more versatile than a Military tactical supercomputer, but the supercomputer trumps them at what it does in spades.

Basically, it's hard to quantify tactical effectiveness. All, I can say to this is that tactical command/control is what the WM does and the level of what the WM has shown on panel to enhance combat effectiveness has been proven by winning some very lopsided skill/power level battles simply by tactical brilliance/situational and locational awareness/ability control.

Ok, good bye, DDude.

bye

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Ok, good bye, DDude.

bye

Why? Where are you going?

Because I think you're right.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Because I think you're right.

Oh! Cool! Thought you were leaving us or something.

Originally posted by "Id"
I for one think this is a close match. Impossible to tell who would win, since you have to many factors coming in from both sides.

Superman vs Gladiator: Supermam edges out.
Quasar vs GL Hall: to close to call
Beta Ray Bill vs Orion: to close to call
Ronan vs Wonderwomen: Wonder Women edges out
Silver Surfer vs Captain Atom: Silver Surfer
Nova vs Captain Marvel: I don’t know enough about Captain Marvel to decided or give an opinion.



http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5974/act784pg11.th.jpghttp://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9786/act784pg12.th.jpg


http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5974/act784pg11.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9786/act784pg12.jpg

How do you think Kal>Gladiator when overall if we look at showings of strength, durability, and speed, Gladiator>Superman?

Originally posted by carver9
How do you think Kal>Gladiator when overall if we look at showings of strength, durability, and speed, Gladiator>Superman?
Its not fair to compare Superman to Gladiator. Since Superman on average greatly restrains himself, as opposed Glads. If you want to do an apples to apples comparison, in regards to average showings do with Mr. Majestic, Black Adam, or Supreme. They are more prone to end a fight before it starts, then the boy scout pacifist known as Superman.

But yes I favor Superman for his peak showings.

Originally posted by "Id"
Its not fair to compare Superman to Gladiator. Since Superman on average greatly restrains himself, as opposed Glads. If you want to do an apples to apples comparison, in regards to average showings do with Mr. Majestic, Black Adam, or Supreme. They are more prone to end a fight before it starts, then the boy scout pacifist known as Superman.

But yes I favor Superman for his peak showings.

Which peak showings?

You can account for holding back, but there also has to be a reason to believe Superman is > a planet busting 100 c traveling character. (I do think Supermans durability is on Glads level though, if not above..)

Originally posted by cdtm
Which peak showings?

You can account for holding back, but there also has to be a reason to believe Superman is > a planet busting 100 c traveling character. (I do think Supermans durability is on Glads level though, if not above..)

Well go ahead lecture me. Show me Glads top feats under each criteria.

Originally posted by "Id"
Well go ahead lecture me. Show me Glads top feats under each criteria.

I'm not trying to lecture you, just wondering what feats you're going off of.

What do you consider Supermans top feats?

Originally posted by cdtm
Which peak showings?

You can account for holding back, but there also has to be a reason to believe Superman is > a planet busting 100 c traveling character. (I do think Supermans durability is on Glads level though, if not above..)

Durability? Naah; you must forgot about the scene where Glads was hit with a blast that had enough power to shed a solar system point blank range in the face and flew out of it AND contained it without a scratch on his body?

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm not trying to lecture you, just wondering what feats you're going off of.

What do you consider Supermans top feats?
I favor Superman because of these feats, and good showing against powerful oppositions.

Durability
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08c.jpg

Strength
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Trinity02a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Trinity02b.jpg

Speed
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Superman-Lex2000a.jpg

Striking Power
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/ManOfSteel116c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/ManOfSteel116d.jpg

Originally posted by "Id"
I favor Superman because of these feats, and good showing against powerful oppositions.

Durability
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08c.jpg

Strength
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Trinity02a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Trinity02b.jpg

Speed
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Superman-Lex2000a.jpg

Striking Power
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/ManOfSteel116c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/ManOfSteel116d.jpg


I was VERY impressed by the planets colliding and Superman living from it feat when I first saw it and I still am. Thats still not better than Glads taking a solar system destroying blast in the face with damage at all.

Speed; no speed was given and Im pretty sure that was an indication of him going faster than light in space. Gladiator have a statement, a statement of him flying at 100 times the speed of light.

Striking power scan, that wasnt Superman that created that impact in that scan.

As for Superman moving a small pocket solar system, well, he was pushing against gravity in that scan and there is no telling how much force he was pushing against. If it was EXTREME force then the city would have been destroyed. I am thinking you are reading a little too much into that scan.

If you believe the Apokolips hype, that was just as good as Glads solar system blast. Supes FTW.

Originally posted by carver9
Durability? Naah; you must forgot about the scene where Glads was hit with a blast that had enough power to shed a solar system point blank range in the face and flew out of it AND contained it without a scratch on his body?

Didn't see that one. Source? Tyrants a big one though...

Tanking a solar system blast is impressive, but Supes has a list of pretty impressive feats: surviving being in the middle of a sun eater collapsing for one (And while it triggered a time jump, there's evidence he was still taking the brunt of each explosion), being in the middle of New Genesis and Apokolips colliding, and taking the energies from the Source Wall collapsing which were powerful enough to bend reality, as Metron claimed The Source didn't shield Supes body from what was happening..

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Actually, I think you missed some of the better feats that the Worldmind has shown.

I don't think so. I've been reading since the first Annihilation One Shot. I just think you're overestimating the role Worldmind plays in coming up with strategies to defeat his various foes.

And that makes a lot of sense, given the basic tenants of storytelling. Namely, who wants to read about a character who is getting fed all of his strategies by a calculating super computer?




Sure, and I have no doubt that the Worldmind is capable of helping Rich enact strategys more effectively, nor is anyone arguing that. But this idea that in and of itself it's this tactical engine that is going to advise the team on how best to attack their foes, how to exploit weaknesses, etc is unfounded. We've already seen what happens when Rich goes up against a Supergirl level foe in Xenith and, yeah, he was able to use weakness exploitation for the win, but it had absolutely nothing to do with Worldmind. The tension of the series is very often Rich going directly AGAINST what the Worldmind tells him to do, and pulling it off anyway.



I tried to make it clear in another post, but obviously it didn't come through -- the Mother Box is all of this as well. It is sentient (a sentient computer, just like Worldmind). The difference is in appearance, rather than nature, as Mother Box communicates telepathically while Worldmind is verbal. So you, as a reader, can more fully relate/interface with the idea of Worldmind, but Mother Box's abilities are a little more hidden since you only ever get to 'hear' the other side of the conversation.




Surely you're not trying to argue that the Worldmind has better scanners than Mother Box as well?





But I've already told you, that is exactly what Mother Box does. Mother Box will tell you that you are in danger, that you've got incoming, or that everything is fine. It will help you get out of the situation, it will advise you, it will scold you for doing wrong or making the wrong decision.

The Surfer's scanning/tactical abilities are like a Green Lanterns. It's pure information, you get an answer to whatever question you pose. Mother Box is very similar to Worldmind.





I won't go that far, but I'll acknowledge that he has come a long way.

And that goes to my point -- Worldmind, at this point, really just feeds Nova information about what is going on. Yes, it's a second pair of eyes (one with scanners and what not), but that's no different than what Mother Box is for Orion and Mr. Miracle.

Originally posted by dmills
The WM has empowered, managed and coordinated thousands of centurians, all while running the entire planet of Xandar. It can give not only Nova, but also everyone on the team tactical backing.

Has it ever actually done that to people without deputizing them as Nova Corps members first? I don't think that it has. Meanwhile, Mother Box HAS hyper evolved Oracle's communication to give them all instant radiotelepathic contact and coordination.

And if you're saying that Nova is about to deputize everyone, I'd bring up that Hal could just create more GL rings.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but whether or not he "used it in a combat situation" kinda depends on how you define the concept. I mean the guys weren't right there with him when he set off the blast because he left combat to have a final moment with Airwalker, but unless I'm remembering wrong they were in pursuit of Surfer and they did fly out of the blackhole that formed afterwards so they did get hit by it.

Right, he didn't use it in combat, he did it to create a memorial for his friend.

It's the intent.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Capabilities-wise they seem similar. But the realtime tactical support provided by the WM has been shown to be far more effective. Sure, the MB has more frills, more versatile abilities and can do a lot of what the WM can do. But not at the level that the WM does it. A Military Supercomputer might not have the same features as an iphone, but it's better at what it does.

Sigh. Just show an instance where the MB has been able to affect the outcome of a battle thru tactical savvy that a person 1/1000th the power of another wins the fight primarily because of how the MB guided it.

1/100oth of the power? Where did that figure come from?

Anyway, here's an example of Mother Box giving Orion the win over a relic weapon of the Old Gods. 100% Mother Box figuring it out and accomplishing the task.

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/jkfw-11-14.jpg

Originally posted by Desaad
Has it ever actually done that to people without deputizing them as Nova Corps members first? I don't think that it has. Meanwhile, Mother Box HAS hyper evolved Oracle's communication to give them all instant radiotelepathic contact and coordination.

And if you're saying that Nova is about to deputize everyone, I'd bring up that Hal could just create more GL rings. Lantern rings can create a copy to deputize another Lantern as a Blackest Night contingency. That contingency was triggered by Ganthet, who has created rings on his own before. Blackest Night is over.

Were GLs capable, much less aware, of this deputization ability outside of Blackest Night, they would have used it by now. For example, on their mission to save Kyle during Sinestro Corps War, Hal's ring was almost completely exhausted by Henshaw's Manhunters. Stewart, Gardner, Tomar, Graf had well-charged rings and did not replicate a ring for Hal to use. Hal ended up having to wield YL rings.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
GL's can't teleport. Otherwise, that notion wouldn't have been outright stated by GLs and the Indigo Tribe during Blackest Night. If GLs could teleport they wouldn't be caught in nearly half of the messes they find themselves in.

And yet there are numerous examples of GL's being able to teleport, throughout history and continuity. Many more so than there are of Silver Surfer, for instance. Yes, both of them could get out of a lot of jams if they could teleport, just like both of them could get out of a lot of jams if they turned their foes into cupcakes, brought those cupcakes to cosmic space jail, and then turned them back into people again.

But they don't do that, because that would be boring. The fact remains, Hal has shown - in every incarnation of the character - the ability to teleport.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/101bed38.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/J_L_of_A_212-19.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/GLLegacy_pg044.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/GLLegacy_pg045.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/JLSpectacular1-27.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/GLLegacy_pg065.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/GLLegacy_pg047.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/gl172_14.jpg
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu71/Desaad86/Hal%20Jordan%203/28.jpg
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu71/Desaad86/Hal%20Jordan%203/30.jpg
http://s635.photobucket.com/albums/uu71/Desaad86/Hal%20Jordan%203/?action=view&current=BB16p02.jpg




Which he is.




Surfer doesn't have superior versatility, and the power differential - especially as demonstrated by 1v1 confrontations - is not great.




Getting knocked unconscious from construct destruction, or even getting feedback from construct destruction, is not a consistent facet of the characters. It may come into play, it may not. Surfer getting distracted and knocked out may come into play as well, it may not.



So it's consistent when Surfer does it, what, 4 times? But teleportation isn't an ability Hal has when I can give you well over 10?

Yeah, absolutely no bias here.




Against Barry, when one of them is being mindcontrolled (Hal, I believe) in the Silver Age. Against Barry when Barry is upset and goes charging and SPECIFICALLY moves too fast to be caught by Superman (who has Super speed) and Hawkman (who does not). Against Professor Zoom (not Zoom), who is impersonating Barry and who Hal is using kid gloves on due to it being Barry. And Against random villain speedsters.



I just gave you a post crisis example of Dr. Light being unable to manipulate Hal's energy. Shall I give you examples of characters who have proven capable of absorbing Surfer's?

If you don't want to admit that GL's can teleport, that's fine. There is nothing I can do about that. But to go against a bulk of evidence that great, is there any point in even continuing this?




Hulk is a constantly changing character, with "Grey", "Savage", "Professor", etc all having different base power levels, with a dynamic power level to boot.

Nice try, though.



No. Picking only those appearances that make your opponent's character look weak is the double standard. I'm the one acknowledging the entirity of the character's continuity. Your the one dismissing anything that didn't happen last week (at least for the guy going up against your preferred character).




And I'll be happy to post a thousand examples in which Surfer could have more easily gotten out of a situation by matter manipulation, but instead blasted or punched. Or, for that matter, when he travelled via flight rather than teleportation.

The fact that a character doesn't use an ability at all times does not mean that it doesn't exist. It's just the nature of writing stories, that sometimes it is better/easier for the writer to do something different.

I swear to god, from the way you're posting it's as if you believe computers write this stuff out.





I already addressed this above. I can show a multitude of instances of GL's using matter manipulation, as many ( I'd wager) as you can show the Silver Surfer. But it wouldn't matter, because you're deadset on Hal losing and Surfer winning, and nothing anyone says or shows is going to change your mind. Your stance is akin to saying that the Surfer couldn't transmute a thing because he didn't do so against Beta Ray Bill, or in his latest appearance in the Thanos Imperative.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Lantern rings can create a copy to deputize another Lantern as a Blackest Night contingency. That contingency was triggered by Ganthet, who has created rings on his own before. Blackest Night is over.

Were GLs capable, much less aware, of this deputization ability outside of Blackest Night, they would have used it by now. For example, on their mission to save Kyle during Sinestro Corps War, Hal's ring was almost completely exhausted by Henshaw's Manhunters. Stewart, Gardner, Tomar, Graf had well-charged rings and did not replicate a ring for Hal to use. Hal ended up having to wield YL rings.

Sweet jesus, they've shown the ability MULTIPLE TIMES. Hal has deputlized Wally West, Hal has deputized Alan Scott, Hal gave a ring to god damn Green Arrow, Hal's ring split itself off in "Rebirth", etc.

Again, differing interpretations by differing writers.

This "only the last issue of stories counts!" notion you've got is untenable and a double standard that you don't seem to be applying to the Silver Surfer, I can't help but note.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Finally, analogizing pre-Crisis with Silver Age Marvel stories is idiotic. Marvel never retconned their history. DC did. You reference Surfer and Thor? You have any idea how much weaker/limited they were back during the Silver Age as compared to now? Your analogy is terrible.

Second, you obviously have no effing clue of the lengths that Marvel goes to, to preserve the original stories down to the smallest details. First Avengers' story in Avengers #1 involved Hulk joining a circus in clown-paint and acting like a robot to hide from the military. Avengers: The Origin -- a limited series being published right now -- literally expands on that exact plot down to the name of the robot: Mechano. Loki got beat when he changed into a radioactive state in that story where Pym simply dropped him into a lead container at the end of Avengers #1. There have been at least three stories decades later that reference and preserve and explain why that actually worked. I can cite to dozens, if not a hundred, such instances of this same type of zealous preservation for countless other stories for countless other characters for Marvel.

You continuing to reach back to pre-Crisis times only highlights and underscores the largest flaw in your argumentation: a patent disregard for anything in current stories that serves to "weaken" your favorite character despite how clearly and plainly it's portrayed, but turning right around and accepting all current stories that serve to "strengthen" your favorite character. Double-standard is double-standard anyway you slice it.


And another point to consider: DC proponents get more slack than most even bother to point out when it comes to the convoluted history of DC. There have been no less than three different Zods post-Crisis. Nobody's arguing that Superman's showings against Azzarello's Phantom Zone Zod got wiped away from continuity. Even though you justifiably could argue that Infinite Crisis and 52 retconned it so that the first time current Superman ever personally met anyone named Zod, was in Superman: Last Son. So frankly, crying victim is about the last thing pre-Crisis proponents ought to be doing.

I'm sorry, but your pick and choose continuity is the epitome of hardcore bias, and an unsustainable way to debate. Rather than take all showings and generate an average, you choose to focus on only a select few and extrapolate from there? The whole POINT of these characters, of the shared Marvel and DC universes, is that there is a rich, interconnected history that builds and builds on itself. To divest yourself of that is to miss the entire point of the shared superhero comics unvierses.

As for GL in particular, we've been over it. Not only was there an in continuity explanation for why the Green Lanterns survived unscathed, not only did we get multiple stories dealing with GL's trying to find their place after the Crisis had re-written continuity (Kilowog's planet destroyed, C'hpp having been killed at a young age, U'bx having survived by sheer force of will and technology, time travel being more difficult Post-Crisis), but we've had consistent reference to every major era of GL continuity. The GA/GL days, the Broome stories, the Wein stories, the Englehart run, it's all been referenced. Infinite Crisis went so far as to retcon the origin of the JLA and bring back the original multiverse and the original Legion of Superheroes. There can be no doubt that these stories are in continuity and, in the case of Green Lantern, have ALWAYS been in continuity.

Yes, stories get retold, origins get retold. It happened to GL, it happened to Batman (Year One), it happened to Dr. Strange (JMS's Strange), it happened to Iron Man, it happened to the Fantastic Four and it has and will happen to many others. Things get changed, sometimes big things, and that doesn't invalidate all the rest of those characters' histories.

If we can't agree on this, best to just let it lie. At this point, you've pretty well demonstrated a sincere inability to look past your own inherent biases and judge the characters based on their full, rich histories. Obviously for fear of what will come out about the Surfer.

Originally posted by Desaad
And yet there are numerous examples of GL's being able to teleport, throughout history and continuity. Many more so than there are of Silver Surfer, for instance. Yes, both of them could get out of a lot of jams if they could teleport, just like both of them could get out of a lot of jams if they turned their foes into cupcakes, brought those cupcakes to cosmic space jail, and then turned them back into people again.

But they don't do that, because that would be boring. The fact remains, Hal has shown - in every incarnation of the character - the ability to teleport.First off, don't bother showing me any showings of Marty or Pieface or pre-Crisis showings. You can scratch half of what you scanned. Second, give me issue #s. Not all the scan links have the issue #s. Third, GLs having other capable means of taking care of a situation is a deflection. This is especialyl true when teleporting literally meant the life/death of an innocent or another GL. And the GLs couldn't get there in time, despite knowing the location. And it's literally announced that they cannot teleport in Blackest Night. Explicit, current showings supercede. And you'll be given scans of them later. Originally posted by Desaad
Which he is. Surfer doesn't have superior versatility, and the power differential - especially as demonstrated by 1v1 confrontations - is not great.

Getting knocked unconscious from construct destruction, or even getting feedback from construct destruction, is not a consistent facet of the characters. It may come into play, it may not. Surfer getting distracted and knocked out may come into play as well, it may not.

So it's consistent when Surfer does it, what, 4 times? But teleportation isn't an ability Hal has when I can give you well over 10? Yeah, absolutely no bias here. Not even close on both accounts.

Yes, it is. When it's a construct that takes massive willpower, crippling feedback constantly occurs. Hell, maintaing a construct that requires massive willpower causes terrible strain on its own.

If I show you Surfer commanding his board to whack his foes more than 4 times, what then? And don't even try with a false distinction. Your situation would be analogous if Surfer or others stated out loud that Surfer cannot control his board independently while fighting. They don't. So it's not. False distinction =/= argument for bias. Originally posted by Desaad
Against Barry, when one of them is being mindcontrolled (Hal, I believe) in the Silver Age. Against Barry when Barry is upset and goes charging and SPECIFICALLY moves too fast to be caught by Superman (who has Super speed) and Hawkman (who does not). Against Professor Zoom (not Zoom), who is impersonating Barry and who Hal is using kid gloves on due to it being Barry. And Against random villain speedsters.

I just gave you a post crisis example of Dr. Light being unable to manipulate Hal's energy. Shall I give you examples of characters who have proven capable of absorbing Surfer's?Try providing scans or issue #s and I'll give you the context on every single one of them. I've had this argument before.

You're confusing me. Hal manipulated or Hal resisted the manipulation? Trying to suggest that GLs are greater energy manipulators is laughable. Don't even waste my time. Originally posted by Desaad
If you don't want to admit that GL's can teleport, that's fine. There is nothing I can do about that. But to go against a bulk of evidence that great, is there any point in even continuing this?

Hulk is a constantly changing character, with "Grey", "Savage", "Professor", etc all having different base power levels, with a dynamic power level to boot. Nice try, though.

No. Picking only those appearances that make your opponent's character look weak is the double standard. I'm the one acknowledging the entirity of the character's continuity. Your the one dismissing anything that didn't happen last week (at least for the guy going up against your preferred character).

And I'll be happy to post a thousand examples in which Surfer could have more easily gotten out of a situation by matter manipulation, but instead blasted or punched. Or, for that matter, when he travelled via flight rather than teleportation.

The fact that a character doesn't use an ability at all times does not mean that it doesn't exist. It's just the nature of writing stories, that sometimes it is better/easier for the writer to do something different.

I swear to god, from the way you're posting it's as if you believe computers write this stuff out.

I already addressed this above. I can show a multitude of instances of GL's using matter manipulation, as many ( I'd wager) as you can show the Silver Surfer. But it wouldn't matter, because you're deadset on Hal losing and Surfer winning, and nothing anyone says or shows is going to change your mind. Your stance is akin to saying that the Surfer couldn't transmute a thing because he didn't do so against Beta Ray Bill, or in his latest appearance in the Thanos Imperative. All these deflections have been addressed above. If you had Silver Surfer stating outloud or others stating around him that Surfer couldn't control his board independently, you'd have a point. Instead, you're relying on a false distinction to make an analogy. You're literally doing it wrong.

Originally posted by Desaad
Sweet jesus, they've shown the ability MULTIPLE TIMES. Hal has deputlized Wally West, Hal has deputized Alan Scott, Hal gave a ring to god damn Green Arrow, Hal's ring split itself off in "Rebirth", etc.

Again, differing interpretations by differing writers.

This "only the last issue of stories counts!" notion you've got is untenable and a double standard that you don't seem to be applying to the Silver Surfer, I can't help but note. Don't be ridiculous. GLs duplicating rings is not a standard ability. You know it. I know it. That isn't in service to some plot. That's exactly how it is.

Just because you don't like the vast magnitude of GL comics as they are plainly presented doesn't mean you get to ignore them.

Try naming some examples where I'm not assessing any of these standards against Surfer.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
First off, don't bother showing me any showings of Marty or Pieface or pre-Crisis showings. You can scratch half of what you scanned.

hahaha, no, done. I'm not going to be forced to play by 'your' rules, false distinctions desperately trying to make your preferred character look better. You don't like the evidence I provide, tough titties.


Have a good one.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm sorry, but your pick and choose continuity is the epitome of hardcore bias, and an unsustainable way to debate. Rather than take all showings and generate an average, you choose to focus on only a select few and extrapolate from there? The whole POINT of these characters, of the shared Marvel and DC universes, is that there is a rich, interconnected history that builds and builds on itself. To divest yourself of that is to miss the entire point of the shared superhero comics unvierses. There is no picking and choosing. There is Crisis on Infinite Earths and there isn't. To completely ignore that event and its ramifications is idiotic. You're not preserving a rich history that builds on itself. You're ignoring a history that was specifically retconned in the biggest storyline of DC comics EVER. You're picking and choosing specific feats despite that history redefining itself up to current day. Your aspersions of hypocrisy are quanchi-lite. Having a hypocrite call me a hypocrite is an indication I'm doing something right. Like a double-negative, almost. Originally posted by Desaad
As for GL in particular, we've been over it. Not only was there an in continuity explanation for why the Green Lanterns survived unscathed, not only did we get multiple stories dealing with GL's trying to find their place after the Crisis had re-written continuity (Kilowog's planet destroyed, C'hpp having been killed at a young age, U'bx having survived by sheer force of will and technology, time travel being more difficult Post-Crisis), but we've had consistent reference to every major era of GL continuity. The GA/GL days, the Broome stories, the Wein stories, the Englehart run, it's all been referenced. Infinite Crisis went so far as to retcon the origin of the JLA and bring back the original multiverse and the original Legion of Superheroes. There can be no doubt that these stories are in continuity and, in the case of Green Lantern, have ALWAYS been in continuity. There can be no doubt that they are not relevant anymore. Pointing out that time travel is incredibly harder after the Crisis is supposed to render Hal effortlessly time-traveling in his early adventures applicable to a debate how? It's the exact opposite. Do you not even see that? Any adventures that are shoe-horned back in are relevant and matter as they are portrayed. Otherwise, they're not relevant. We're being showed Superman's first adventures with the Legion in Action Comics now. They're really different. That doesn't reinforce the previously published pre-Crisis ones... it utterly dispels them. Furthermore, memories of events =/= current capability. Otherwise Kal-L would have been sneezing galaxies away instead of going toe-to-toe with Kal-El in Infinite Crisis. Originally posted by Desaad
Yes, stories get retold, origins get retold. It happened to GL, it happened to Batman (Year One), it happened to Dr. Strange (JMS's Strange), it happened to Iron Man, it happened to the Fantastic Four and it has and will happen to many others. Things get changed, sometimes big things, and that doesn't invalidate all the rest of those characters' histories.

If we can't agree on this, best to just let it lie. At this point, you've pretty well demonstrated a sincere inability to look past your own inherent biases and judge the characters based on their full, rich histories. Obviously for fear of what will come out about the Surfer. Things get changed that literally invalidate histories and feats then those histories and feats get invalidated. And stop pretending that you're pointing to analogous situations. Nobody uses classic Strange's feats when arguing current Dr. Strange in vs battles. Why would you make exceptions for characters that go through a literal retcon? You're doing it wrong.

Let it lie then. Don't bother presenting pre-Crisis schlock to me. If you can't make your argument without pre-Crisis feats, you're arguments are clearly weaker than you'd care to admit. Originally posted by Desaad
hahaha, no, done. I'm not going to be forced to play by 'your' rules, false distinctions desperately trying to make your preferred character look better. You don't like the evidence I provide, tough titties.

Have a good one. If you think showing me Marty and Pieface from Green Lantern: Last Will and Testament count as standard Green Lantern showings, then I'm accusing you right now of intentionally misleading people. Get that crap outta here before it goes any further. Also, thanks for giving me issue #s... oh wait. That's right.

Originally posted by Desaad
1/100oth of the power? Where did that figure come from?

Anyway, here's an example of Mother Box giving Orion the win over a relic weapon of the Old Gods. 100% Mother Box figuring it out and accomplishing the task.

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/jkfw-11-14.jpg

Forgot about that feat. Nice.

Originally posted by Desaad
1/100oth of the power? Where did that figure come from?

Anyway, here's an example of Mother Box giving Orion the win over a relic weapon of the Old Gods. 100% Mother Box figuring it out and accomplishing the task.

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/jkfw-11-14.jpg

The Nova Prime is thousands of times more powerful than an average Centurion. An average centurion managed to take down the Nova prime simply thru tactics. Heck, it was even acknowledged in the comics.

That looks like an analysis feat to me (as well as energy manip), not much in tactical skill. Surfer has done things like this many many times. Heck, GL's, too. Quasar, too. Hell, a LOT of heroes has done feats similar to this.

CA wins 9/10. The JLA might get one win when gladiator and surfer start arguing and fighting about who koed the most JLA members.

Ronan is by far the weakest link. Jla for a majority

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
The Nova Prime is thousands of times more powerful than an average Centurion. An average centurion managed to take down the Nova prime simply thru tactics. Heck, it was even acknowledged in the comics.

But Nova Prime has demonstrated himself to be vastly under powered, with access to little of the energy that a typical Nova Prime has, which is why Rich is nowhere near the level of, say, previous Nova Prime's we've seen.



Now hold on, you were just arguing about separating the tactical vs the energy manipulation aspect of the feats. Yes, characters like the Surfer and Quasar have manipulated energy, definitely.

But that's not important for this debate. What I just showed you was Orion basically saying "Man, I'm in a tight spot -- figure out some way to get me out of here, Mother Box!" and then Mother Box doing just that (and implementing the solution, to boot). That's exactly what you're asking for -- that kind of problem solving ability, one that goes beyond mere analysis and into strategy. And it's actually MORE than Worldmind generally does. Most of the time, Worldmind's function is, again, "Rich! To your right! Rich! To your left!" and picking up MOST issues of Nova bear that out.

Ronan is underated.

Originally posted by carver9
Ronan is underated.

and yet beatable.

Originally posted by Desaad
But Nova Prime has demonstrated himself to be vastly under powered, with access to little of the energy that a typical Nova Prime has, which is why Rich is nowhere near the level of, say, previous Nova Prime's we've seen.

I dunno... How many Nova Prime's have you actually read? Other than Supernova (who went insane), I've yet to see a Nova Prime who's accessed the Nova Force at the level Rider has.

No offense, but it doesn't look you've read that much Nova from what I've seen you posting,

In Annihilation: Conquest it was SPECIFICALLY mentioned that the Nova Prime that was being referred to as "thousands of times more powerful" was specifically Rich.

Originally posted by Desaad
Now hold on, you were just arguing about separating the tactical vs the energy manipulation aspect of the feats. Yes, characters like the Surfer and Quasar have manipulated energy, definitely.

But that's not important for this debate. What I just showed you was Orion basically saying "Man, I'm in a tight spot -- figure out some way to get me out of here, Mother Box!" and then Mother Box doing just that (and implementing the solution, to boot). That's exactly what you're asking for -- that kind of problem solving ability, one that goes beyond mere analysis and into strategy.

Energy analysis and manipulation. A high level of it, yes.

It is impressive but not at all as impressive as you're making it sound. Especially, compared to the level of energy analysis and manipulation done by some of the characters featured in this debate.

Originally posted by Desaad
And it's actually MORE than Worldmind generally does. Most of the time, Worldmind's function is, again, "Rich! To your right! Rich! To your left!" and picking up MOST issues of Nova bear that out.

Again, no offense, but you haven't really read all that much Nova have you? Especially the more recent ones....

Originally posted by -Pr-
and yet beatable.

Very true but I think he could last long enough for his other team mates to drop their opponents. It just depends on who he is pitted against.

Originally posted by carver9
Very true but I think he could last long enough for his other team mates to drop their opponents. It just depends on who he is pitted against.

the JLA have as much chance of dropping his team-mates as vice versa.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I dunno... How many Nova Prime's have you actually read?

I've read the original appearance of a Nova Prime, and recognized very obviously that the level of the Nova Prime's as seen of late is nowhere near what Supernova was capable of.

Rich isn't even Herald level, from what we've seen. At the beginning of his ongoing, he was being given trouble by Venom and Penance, for crissakes. That's hardly anything special.



Because with the exception of Supernova and Ryder, there has never been any character that has wielded the full Nova Force for any extended period of time. Coming in second in this case is basically coming in last.



Oh, right, how could I take offense to you essentially calling me a liar?



Yeah, perhaps in potential, in the amount of energy he HELD, but not in the amount of energy he could WIELD. Again, when Nova was "Nova Prime" at the start, he was being given trouble by mid tiers still. And of course the Worldmind, who has been the keeper for the Nova Force for basically all time, is going to be able to offer some specific insights on how to defeat a foe who has the power. That's only NATURAL. That's like saying that the Mother box is going to be able to offer some insights into the Source -- it doesn't mean those insights are necessarily going to be as effective when dealing with something more familiar.

Which, again, is borne out by the issues themselves. Take a look at the Xenith fight -- it's pretty typical. Whats going on right now in the Thanos Imperative? Rich isn't getting any specific direction, he's just being told things like "This guy is incredibly powerful!" "This guy is so powerful he makes the last guy look insignificant! Run!" and then Rich says no and fights anyway. It's been that way throughout the run -- what happened when Nova was attacked by a group of Sentries? He got basic information like "We are under attack!" and "Those are kree Sentries, serial number blah blah blah"...but the actual direction and impetus for action came from Nova himself. He delivered the commands, verbally, as to how to proceed, not Worldmind. Worldmind may recommend a course of action, absolutely, but it's not very often that he gives specific strategies in the midst of battle, and even when he does they are usually basics like "Run away!", and Rich usually ignores them.





It's NOT just energy analysis and manipulation, though. Yes, those are the ACTIONS, but it's the problem solving that I'm specifically addressing.






I've already told you that I've read every Nova appearance since Annihilation, the first one. So either you're calling me a liar, and you do mean offense, or you haven't read what I've written.