Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Nick Gant (Chris Evans' character in 'Push')
Victor Budarin (Neil Jackson's character in 'Push')
Sample clip of Victor and Nick - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ7I-fIL2yU&feature=related

Fox ('Wanted')
Wesley ('Wanted')

-all four are armed with 2(each) matchmaster .45's http://www.imfdb.org/images/1/13/Wanted_21.JPG
-each starts with 2 reloads(each)



vs.

Obi Wan ('RotS')
Anakin ('RotS')

-both armed with their lightsaber.

_____________________________________________

-fight takes place where Yoda fought Palpatine in "RotS"
-there are ammo (not weapon, just ammo) caches evenly spaced in the arena
-the teams start out together, on opposite sides of the arena than there opponents
-arena - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inTbUf5Swfc

Can the Jedi take the others guns away and use them?

sure, why not... and the other's can take the jedi's lightsabers.

I think Jedi battle precog and force speed win in the end here. Been a while since I saw Push.

facepalm Obi Wan and Anakin slice and dice

I heard that "Jedi precog" ability thrown around as a fact early in the "Twilight vs Star Wars" thread, but that thread turned to shit so i didn't pay attention to see if it was explained... Where are you getting this from? To my understanding, that battle precog ability was something only 2 or 3 people could do. Any evidence that supports Anakin and Obi Wan can see attacks before they happen?

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
facepalm Obi Wan and Anakin slice and dice ya think so? I was kinda thinking Jedi win, but I'm not so sure. There will be bullets flying from all kind angles, then there's the two dude's coming at them with tk force.

Originally posted by marwash22
I heard that "Jedi precog" ability thrown around as a fact early in the "Twilight vs Star Wars" thread, but that thread turned to shit so i didn't pay attention to see if it was explained... Where are you getting this from? To my understanding, that battle precog ability was something only 2 or 3 people could do. Any evidence that supports Anakin and Obi Wan can see attacks before they happen?

ya think so? I was kinda thinking Jedi win, but I'm not so sure. There will be bullets flying from all kind angles, then there's the two dude's coming at them with tk force.

well since precog will alert them and guide them to avoid said bullets, i don't see a problem.. also Obi and Anakin can certainly deflect the bullets since they so easily deflected blaster bolts..

so i am thinking either slice and dice... or deflect bullets back to the Wanted and Push folks where they die

Nick and Victor toss them Jedi around like ragdolls.


And I almost forgot that Wesley has active control of his adrenaline abilities. So he can slow the jedi down to the point where he can really do some damage.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I think Jedi battle precog and force speed win in the end here. Been a while since I saw Push.

yeah same, I haven't watched Push in a couple months

i understand how the force works, but you haven't proved that they have "battle precog", where they can predict where attacks are coming from. deflecting laser fire isn't "battle precog", it's reflexes. also, you can't deflect bullets with a lightsaber, if anything, the bullets would melt when they come in contact with the lightsaber... but there's no chance that Obi Wan and Anakin send the bullets back like they do to Droid fire.

Another thing, blaster fire travels in a straight line, Wanted bullets don't.

Obi Wan versus Zam Wessell. Anakin sensing danger in Padme's room. Battle precog. They sense danger, where and when it is forming, and where it will be coming from. It's more than just "good reflexes", dude.

No, Jedi cannot send lead bullets back to the shooter. Then again, the Wanted shooters have zero chance of hitting the Jedi if the Jedi use force speed.

THey didn't show any advanced combat speed aside from blocking blaster bolts.

Wesley however, can slow speed up his perception of time, making the Jedi seem extremely slow in comparison.

And like I said, the Movers can just toss them around like ragdolls. Hell, they're shield could probably take saber strikes.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Obi Wan versus Zam Wessell. Anakin sensing danger in Padme's room. Battle precog. They sense danger, where and when it is forming, and where it will be coming from. It's more than just "good reflexes", dude. See, you keep saying that, but you're not proving it. I'm not even saying it's false 'cause I'm not the biggest Star Wars buff, but sensing danger is NOT "Battle Precog". You're making it seem as if they have the ability to pinpoint the location and angle of where an attack will come from. When they deflect/block droid fire, yes, the force is involved because it guides them and amps their reflexes, but if i sit 100 yards away with a sniper rifle, they do not have the ability to sense where the bullet is coming from. If they do, just show me.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Then again, the Wanted shooters have zero chance of hitting the Jedi if the Jedi use force speed. Uh, what about the other dudes?... ya know, the guys with TK? The Jedi are gonna fend off TK blasts and deflect bullets?

Originally posted by marwash22
See, you keep saying that, but you're not proving it. I'm not even saying it's false 'cause I'm not the biggest Star Wars buff, but sensing danger is NOT "Battle Precog". You're making it seem as if they have the ability to pinpoint the location and angle of where an attack will come from. When they deflect/block droid fire, yes, the force is involved because it guides them and amps their reflexes, but if i sit 100 yards away with a sniper rifle, they do not have the ability to sense where the bullet is coming from. If they do, just show me. Yes, they do indeed have the ability to pinpoint the location and angle of where an attack will come from.


How did Obi Wan know Zam was behind him, blaster drawn?

How did Anakin know there was pending danger in a room he wasn't even in?

How did Yoda sense the Clones behind him about to blast him?

How did Anakin know, when jumping from the speeder in AOTC, that Zam was passing beneath him?

Anakin "I can sense everything going on in that room."

Qui-Gon Jinn "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."



There's your proof.



Read what I said before.

Been a while since I saw Push.

Wow. good thread, marwash22.



And, yes, RJ is right about battle precog. The best way to describe them is enhancing your senses with a 6th sense of reflex. It's like what Spiderman has except better: they can sense danger before it happens and actualy react to it. Of course, there are limits and the limit is more or less the speed of the attack.

A blaster bolt travels between 100-300 Mph. We have multiple frame by frame break downs on this. Between 100-300 is the average.

What is a bullet? John and I talked about this and we both concluded that a bullet should be able to be blocked by a Jedi, by their saber, just the same as a bolt. The speed of these bullets is about 1200feet per second or about 820 Mph. The round used is most likely the 9x19mm parabellum ball round (it's absurdly common...edit - but I reread the op and they are using the matchmaster...those are around 1000fps...so I'll amend if you guys want).

So we've got a "round" that travels between 2.7 and 8 times faster than almost all blaster bolts seen on screen. Can a Jedi react to a round that is 8 times faster than a most of the blaster bolts? Most likely. It's hard to say, really.


Can a Jedi react to a "round" that travels 2.7 times faster? Definitely.




Can a Jedi react to a 2 sources of bullets that travel 8 times faster than a blaster bolt? Definitely not. Even a Jedi master gets overwhelmed at those numbers (we see them actually get taken down, on screen.) Why do I conclude this?


Simple: one source of bullets means they have to react between 2-8 times faster.

Two sources of bullets means they have to react 4-16 times faster. It's like facing down 4-16 clone troopers and we know that between 4-16 troopers, all but the very very best Jedi went down very fast.

Now, the Wanted shooters are, by far, better gunmen than the clone troopers. Sure, the clone troopers are probably among the best because they are clones of Jango made better, but they do not have "superhuman" abilities when it comes to firing bullets.



Bending a bullet would DEFINITELY not matter to a Jedi as they are not going to use the battle precog to move their saber to the location that a straight shot will be but they will move it to the location the curved bullet will be (which isn't very far off, at all, as I showed in another thread with a diagram.)



Four gunners is definitely too much. The TK abilities of Nick and Vick are definitely better than the Jedi's...but "mass" moving? I'd have to watch the movie again because I want to give pure mass moving ability to the Jedi.




Well...I may have to amend because Obi Wan is legendary on his defensive abilities with a saber. He was NEVER hit with a blaster bolt in all 6 films...ever. We could say that no amount of gun fire would hurt him....lol!


But that'd be too unreasonable. He'd go down to gunfire, too.





What do you guys say? Agree or disagree with the gun fire to blaster bolt analogy? What is the limit? Etc.

After thinking about more, I think the combo of 2 'Wanted' shooters, plus the two Movers from 'Push' is too much. Even if the Jedi block every single bullet shot by Fox and Wesley, the Movers can "grab" and fling them with TK.... or take away there sabers.

Maybe, alter the thread to make it...

Wesley and Victor vs. Anakin and Obi Wan?

---------------

as far as the bullets are concerned, yeah, i definitely think a Jedi can block bullets, but maybe not from 8 different sources.

If they have knowledge of each other, the Jedi go force speed (they covered at least 200 feet in one second in TPM), four quick decaps, end of story. Besides, pushers being force choked= Shit filled undies. The shooters? Force pull their guns away. Easy cheesy.

This really comes down to the Jedi versus the pushers. They both have TK, but the Jedi have battle precog, lightsabers and force speed.

another alternative is that anakin can force crush all of their skulls at the same time like how he nigh instantaneously crushed all the droids and metal in his recovery room at the end of rots

That was a Vader feat.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
If they have knowledge of each other, the Jedi go force speed (they covered at least 200 feet in one second in TPM), four quick decaps, end of story. Besides, pushers being force choked= Shit filled undies. The shooters? Force pull their guns away. Easy cheesy.

This really comes down to the Jedi versus the pushers. They both have TK, but the Jedi have battle precog, lightsabers and force speed.


Don't try and use that speed feat here RJ. You and everybody knows that they only went that fast running away from the droidekas, they were never shown using that speed in combat....if they had, all those Jedi wouldn't have been killed during Order 66 would they?

Anakin never used Force Choke in battle, he only used it on Padme. Besides, even if he could use it in battle, he couldn't focus enough with four people shooting at him, Wesley and Fox moving so fast he couldn't touch them, and Nick/Victor blasting them and tossing them around. On top of that, the TK shields may stand up to a saber strike.

Has a Jedi ever Force pulled a blaster from anybody in all 6 of the movies? That's a real question, I can't remember.

And while the Jedi have precog and lightsabers, how can they react to the Mover's level of TK, which was pretty damn amazing.

Originally posted by KingD19
Don't try and use that speed feat here RJ. You and everybody knows that they only went that fast running away from the droidekas, they were never shown using that speed in combat....if they had, all those Jedi wouldn't have been killed during Order 66 would they? Hey, I agree, but others came to the agreement that since they used it onscreen, it is a high end feat. They pitched a big fit about it in a HP/Jedi thread, I'm just going with it.

Because really, what's to keep a Jedi from doing it whenever they want?



So what if Anakin never used it in battle? Is there some mystic clause that says "Hey, force choke, for some reason, stops working the moment a Jedi starts fighting?"

Wesley and Fox moving how fast? What version of Wanted did you watch?

MAY block it, doubtful though.

Luke, ROTJ, Obi Wan, ROTS.

Clip?

Shit, just watched a youtube clip from Push, I forgot how powerful they were haermm

If they go toe to toe, the Jedi likely are killed.



Shaddap.

there's a link in the OP. probably should have made it an embedded vid so the link didn't get overlooked.

TK gun battle= UBERNESS.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Bending a bullet would DEFINITELY not matter to a Jedi as they are not going to use the battle precog to move their saber to the location that a straight shot will be but they will move it to the location the curved bullet will be (which isn't very far off, at all, as I showed in another thread with a diagram.)


Actually it could matter. This is because the Jedi will need to be much faster to deflect projectiles coming from different directions (e.g left and right at the same time = good game), rather than from straight on. The blade would need to travel a further distance to deflect each bullet as they come. Now, with the rate of fire and all that other stuff you've pointed out, bullet bending makes it that much harder for them.

As for the fight, I think Wanted/Push take it quite handily. The Jedi simply cannot deal with deflecting gunfire (which they can't do adequately anyway), and with telekinetics (that match or are likely superior to them) at the same time.

Edit: Correction for saying "deflecting". The bullets would just melt, not reflect. This means if the Jedi don't get gunned down, they'll get pinned down.

Also a thought just occurred to me. Push/Wanted would effectively function as a much more effective version of the Star Wars "Destroyers". Destroyers pretty much have two components - energy bolts and shields. We have seen that the movers can setup shields that can stand up to gun fire, and the Wanted duo provides the fire power. And as we know Jedi retreat when confronted with Destroyers =] Just another thing I thought up, don't take it too seriously =p

Originally posted by Placidity
Actually it could matter. This is because the Jedi will need to be much faster to deflect projectiles coming from different directions (e.g left and right at the same time = good game), rather than from straight on. The blade would need to travel a further distance to deflect each bullet as they come. Now, with the rate of fire and all that other stuff you've pointed out, bullet bending makes it that much harder for them.

In wanted, Wesley had to hit a target by bending around a person.

The target got hit at about the same place as when he was firing straight on.

This is why I say that there will be little difference to the Jedi. At best, it'd be a 2-4 inch difference.

Besides, the Jedi will not move to where the bullet will be, in a linear motion, but where the bullet will be, period, because that's how it works for them.




And, about the shields:


Can they stand up to a saber blow? Wouldn't the swipe of a saber blow have more kinetic energy than a bullet?

Originally posted by dadudemon

And, about the shields:


Can they stand up to a saber blow? Wouldn't the swipe of a saber blow have more kinetic energy than a bullet?

I wouldn't definitely not think so.

Kinetic energy as in (1/2)mv^2...?

Bullet wins hands down. And they hold up to multiple shots.

As you can see here, their telekinesis is superior:

qxujP9fBgG0

im-Veyi_Y6g

Star wars!

Push!

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Star wars! may the denial be with you.

Originally posted by Placidity
I wouldn't definitely not think so.

Kinetic energy as in (1/2)mv^2...?

Bullet wins hands down. And they hold up to multiple shots.

As you can see here, their telekinesis is superior:

qxujP9fBgG0

im-Veyi_Y6g
The Mythbusters did a segment about bullets knocking people back in Hollywood. They supsended, very fragily, a pig body. It wouldn't fall, but the slightest touch from a hand knocked it off it's fragile hold.


I don't remember the details but it had something to do with how small the mass of the bullet was and it just didn't have the kinetic energy to knock it off, but a slight push of the hand had more kinetic energy.



I could have it slightly wrong because the bullet passes all the way though? I don't remember what happened in that episode.



Anyway, if I have time, I'll look through this article and see if I can calculate something:

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts2.htm


I've gotta get back to work, though.




Edit - No need: i watched the second vid and they are punching eachother's shields. No way a saber swing is as strong as a punch. So that closes that book. Also, it looks like their TK is much more powerful than the Jedi's. It's just 'faster' as well.

The wanted character really don't add that much... But the push characters are pretty uber. The Wanted/Puch combo win a majority.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
That was a Vader feat.

their the same person

Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
their the same person not really. There's a reason i said Anakin and not Vader.

Originally posted by ares834
The wanted character really don't add that much... But the push characters are pretty uber. The Wanted/Puch combo win a majority. I disagree.

If that were the case, i wouldn't have added Fox and Wesley. The reason i did add them is so that they could work in tandem with the Movers from 'Push'. Alone, the Movers would get killed because they would be regulated to either use TK gunfire (which travels in a straight line), and which the Jedi could just block and wait for an opening, or use TK flinging which the Jedi could just counter with Force-TK. In combination though, the Movers can do what they do best... move, and the Shooters can... shoot. Fox and Wesley are integral in getting the victory.

Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
their the same person

Not really.

Star Wars stories make it quite clear that a person is 'reborn' as a new person when they fall to the dark side. They even go as far as to take a different name.


Jacen Solo became Darth Cadeus.

Anaking Skywalker because Darth Vader.

Count Dooku became Darth Tyranus.


And so forth.





Because of this, in versus discussion with Star Wars, many people make a disctinction one which version of a character will be used. Many of the powers or "first options" used by the characters will be different, sometimes, significantly.


Why am I telling you all of this? I dunno. You probably know this more than I do.

Originally posted by marwash22
not really. There's a reason i said Anakin and not Vader.


yes really.

their the same person, with a different outlook on things. its not as if anakin received some secret training in the middle of RotS that taught him different powers... lol. he could do everything in the end of RotS that he could do in the beginning, if he'd wanted to.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Not really.

Star Wars stories make it quite clear that a person is 'reborn' as a new person when they fall to the dark side. They even go as far as to take a different name.


Jacen Solo became Darth Cadeus.

Anaking Skywalker because Darth Vader.

Count Dooku became Darth Tyranus.


And so forth.





Because of this, in versus discussion with Star Wars, many people make a disctinction one which version of a character will be used. Many of the powers or "first options" used by the characters will be different, sometimes, significantly.


Why am I telling you all of this? I dunno. You probably know this more than I do.

from a philosophical/symbolic point of view yes. but not from a physical perspective. when someone goes to the dark side they dont just automatically know how to use lightning. they have the same force knowledge they had before, they just apply it differently. the only difference between someones light side and dark side is a frame of mind...

edit- i dunno if i know more than you i havent even read lotf or njo

Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
from a philosophical point of view yes. but not from a physical perspective. when someone goes to the dark side they dont just automatically know how to use lightning. they have the same force knowledge they had before, they just apply it differently. the only difference between someones light side and dark side is a frame of mind...

Anakin Skywalker would not kill all of the Jedi and Younglings at the Jedi temple.

Darth Vader would.


They are really two different people with very little exception.


Darth Vader was cold and ruthless.

Anakin Skywalker was inquisitive, emotional, and compassionate (cept when you mess with his mo)





Edit - Show me an example of Anakin doing force crush, and I'll believe you. (in other words, sometime before he becomes vader.)

can i include eu?

edit- im not trying to argue that anakin can use force crush in this thread, btw

Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
yes really.

their the same person, with a different outlook on things. its not as if anakin received some secret training in the middle of RotS that taught him different powers... lol. he could do everything in the end of RotS that he could do in the beginning, if he'd wanted to. no, not really sneer.

I'm not claiming they're two separate physical beings, but they are different as fighters. If i had said this is Vader, from "RotS"... the only onscreen feat you'd be able to use is the very last scene in the movie. Anakin hardly ever used force choke/crush (i can't distinctly remember him using it at all)... that's pretty much Vader's go to move and it's the first thing he does when he awakens as that persona.

Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
can i include eu?

edit- im not trying to argue that anakin can use force crush in this thread, btw

You know the answer to that question. I, personally, don't have a problem with it as EU is just another level of CANON.


Well, I don't remember him using force crush in any of the films (even the Clone Wars CGI movie and the Clone Wars cartoon.)


I do remember it happening well after Anakin had turned into Vader.



The film makes the change quite drastic, for Anakin. He's almost a completely different person. It's a pretty big "OT" thing for the old timers, as well. They like to justify Obi Wan's lies from ANH to Luke.

Originally posted by marwash22
no, not really sneer.

I'm not claiming they're two separate physical beings, but they are different as fighters. If i had said this is Vader, from "RotS"... the only onscreen feat you'd be able to use is the very last scene in the movie. Anakin hardly ever used force choke/crush (i can't distinctly remember him using it at all)... that's pretty much Vader's go to move and it's the first thing he does when he awakens as that persona.
But he did destroy a Jedi temple that had lots of Jedi in it.


That makes him SUPER bad arse, imo.





And the only reason he lost to Obi Wan was his extreme blind arrogance and Obi Wan had one of the best if not the best defensive saber skills in all of Star Wars.


Anakin Skywalker, right before he turned Dark Side, was one of the best duelists in the Star Wars universe.

He was pretty bad-arse even as Vader, however.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You know the answer to that question. I, personally, don't have a problem with it as EU is just another level of CANON.


Well, I don't remember him using force crush in any of the films (even the Clone Wars CGI movie and the Clone Wars cartoon.)


I do remember it happening well after Anakin had turned into Vader.



The film makes the change quite drastic, for Anakin. He's almost a completely different person. It's a pretty big "OT" thing for the old timers, as well. They like to justify Obi Wan's lies from ANH to Luke.

6:58-

Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
6:58-


I am ashamed. weep


I've seen that episode twice, and I forgot all about it.

Aaaaaaaaahahaahahahahahaaa!!!!!

Originally posted by marwash22
not really. There's a reason i said Anakin and not Vader.

I disagree.

If that were the case, i wouldn't have added Fox and Wesley. The reason i did add them is so that they could work in tandem with the Movers from 'Push'. Alone, the Movers would get killed because they would be regulated to either use TK gunfire (which travels in a straight line), and which the Jedi could just block and wait for an opening, or use TK flinging which the Jedi could just counter with Force-TK. In combination though, the Movers can do what they do best... move, and the Shooters can... shoot. Fox and Wesley are integral in getting the victory.


Movers TK far surpasses that of Star Wars movies.

The most powerful TK display was Yoda holding that huge coupling, and Sidious tossing Senate pods.

The most powerful display from Obi-Wan and Anakin/Vader was when they both tried to use Force Push, and their energies essentially exploded and blew them both across the room. Those two have no TK defense against the Movers, especially when they can TK punch and just blast them and toss them around. On top of that, trying to block TK while they've got the Wanted crew shooting at them is very risky.

The best chance the Jedi have (the only chance, really) is to take out the Pushers right away. If they can force speed over and take out the pushers right away, the Jedi cakewalk the Wanted shooters.

Not likely to happen though. The pushers simply raise their shields and the Wanted shooters blast away.

OP doesn't say how this battle begins. Are they facing each other? Stealth battle? This needs to be stated.

They're in direct line of sight with each other, but on opposite sides of the room.

And what type of room is it? Bare? Warehouse?

You're slippin' RJ, it's in the OP. The room where Yoda fought Palpatine...the area with the pods.

inTbUf5Swfc

Ah. Then Yoda had better prepare two funeral pyres.

I'm still not sure what Wesley and Fox bring to the table. Sure there bulets fly faster. But there is only two of them (both Jedi can block blaster fire from multiple enemies), lower firing rate, and lower clip size. IMO the Jedi could easily block/evoid the attacks. Both can use the force to instanty rip the guns out of there hands, knock them on their asses, or simply leap at them while blocking the bullets and cutting the wanted members down.

The Movers are far more dangerous. If in that one battle scene they actually are using their sheilds to block blow then I doubt the Jedi can win, the only possibilty I see is the jedi using Mind trick. Thus the Pushers get a moagority. If not them the Jedi win IMO.

The shooters will just be in the movers way.