Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

It's a lie.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba392

its a lie, though the sources you use demonstrate the wage gap...

also, different fields have different gaps. Social work, oddly enough, has ~ $9000 a year salary gap.

EDIT: just looking at the stats there... this is VERY misleading...

Originally posted by inimalist
its a lie, though the sources you use demonstrate the wage gap...

also, different fields have different gaps. Social work, oddly enough, has ~ $9000 a year salary gap.

EDIT: just looking at the stats there... this is VERY misleading...
Could you explain what you mean

Originally posted by Bardock42
Could you explain what you mean

Originally posted by inimalist
its a lie, though the sources you use demonstrate the wage gap...

even the source Zeal uses claims that there are, in some instances, up to a 10% differenace in wages between men and women. So, a woman makes 50k, man makes 55k. That isn't trivial. Even at 2%, the difference between 50 and 51k a year isn't insignificant, though this source makes it seem like there is no reason why someone should be upset that they make an arbitrary thousand dollars less than someone of the other gender

Originally posted by inimalist
also, different fields have different gaps. Social work, oddly enough, has ~ $9000 a year salary gap.

the gender gap is different in different fields. Social work, which one would think would be a very egalitarian field, still has a huge wage gap, when controlling for other factors

Originally posted by inimalist
EDIT: just looking at the stats there... this is VERY misleading...

well, what immediatly jumps out is this:

among people ages 27 to 33 who have never had a child, women's earnings approach 98 percent of men's

so, among young (therefore likely low wage and enterance level positions) people, there is only a small difference, so long as the woman has not had a child.

unfortunatly, feminists have rarely complained about entry level jobs, which I wouldn't find it hard to believe have always been more equal than higher pay jobs. The real gaps are seen when you look at how experience mediates pay, or how education mediates pay. An experienced male CEO will almost assuredly be making more than a woman in the same position.

after looking through the link, I'd say I'd agree with their premise, that gender pay inequity isn't as bad as some make it seem, but I don't agree with the premise of the thread, the wage gap is neither a lie or whining.

The article uses the 76 cents to a male dollar stat, saying it doesn't account for choices made by females. Sure, this is true, but it is also true that, when controlling for choice, wages are still not equal. Even if it is something like 95 cents to a male dollar, that is still unreasonable and, imho, wrong, if less oppressive than it was 50 years ago.

Thank you for clearing that up for me, I do agree. I was unsure whether you called the wage gap a lie, or the article.

i just saw a early morning talk show yesterday talking about women in the work force and graduating college and them being the majority now...

how can any one whine about equality of pay or job with these new findings..

here is another news report about women retaining their jobs over men.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/living/2009/09/04/dcl.april.nagel.intvw.cnn.html

Originally posted by King Castle
i just saw a early morning talk show yesterday talking about women in the work force and graduating college and them being the majority now...

how can any one whine about equality of pay or job with these new findings..

here is another news report about women retaining their jobs over men.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/living/2009/09/04/dcl.april.nagel.intvw.cnn.html

That seems nonsensical. Graduating from college and receiving an unfair wage are two different things.

Originally posted by King Castle
i just saw a early morning talk show yesterday talking about women in the work force and graduating college and them being the majority now...

how can any one whine about equality of pay or job with these new findings..

here is another news report about women retaining their jobs over men.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/living/2009/09/04/dcl.april.nagel.intvw.cnn.html

These are non-sequitors. If anything the increasing percentage of women with a college education makes the wage gap stranger.

Originally posted by King Castle
i just saw a early morning talk show yesterday talking about women in the work force and graduating college and them being the majority now...

how can any one whine about equality of pay or job with these new findings..

here is another news report about women retaining their jobs over men.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/living/2009/09/04/dcl.april.nagel.intvw.cnn.html

there are issues from a male perspective as well

for instance, I was doing a presentation in a class last term and got into a debate with a feminist about "equal time" in a classroom for boys and girls.

My point was that women now were the majority in all college fields expect for computers and maths, and that there are probably biological (testosterone, aggression, delayed maturation) and social (boys pushed to be competitive, into physical activities and sports) reasons that boys might demand more attention in classes, and that education might have an "anti-male" bias.

She told me to read a book and that enrollment had nothing to do with it.

i think feminist are the problem in itself.. its like constantly screaming wolf when there is nothing really there that makes it hard to take them serious half the time.

im a feminist

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
These are non-sequitors. If anything the increasing percentage of women with a college education makes the wage gap stranger. but instead of it being sexist could it not simply be the company wanting to save money and offering a certain wage which they accept?

Originally posted by inimalist
im a feminist kay, sorry. let me rephrase it.. nazi feminist.

Originally posted by inimalist
im a feminist

I'm a feminist

hFbCS4a14J4

Originally posted by King Castle
but instead of it being sexist could it not simply be the company wanting to save money and offering a certain wage which they accept?

Lowering wages for everyone would save more money.

Originally posted by King Castle
kay, sorry. let me rephrase it.. nazi feminist.

indeed

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm a feminist

hFbCS4a14J4

i lol'd for real

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Lowering wages for everyone would save more money. seriously.. maybe they dont know how to negotiate and haggle for a better wage.. i mean after all they do buy $500.oo to 5k bags if that is any indication.curlers

Originally posted by King Castle
seriously.. maybe they dont no how to negotiate and haggle for a better wage.. i mean after all they do buy $500.oo to 5k bags if that is any indication.curlers

The more likely explanation is that they are offered less money because at equal pay the employer would likely prefer the man, perhaps not even unreasonably, women have the potential of costing a company more than men.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The more likely explanation is that they are offered less money because at equal pay the employer would likely prefer the man, perhaps not even unreasonably, women have the potential of costing a company more than men. How so, because of maternity leave?

insurance overall i think is more costly then it would be on men.. thats me guessing.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
How so, because of maternity leave?

Yes, mostly.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, mostly. Makes sense, and I suppose I wouldn't fault a business for not wanting to hire a woman who they knew was going to be going on maternity leave in the near future. To me, women getting paid less is wrong when its a matter of sexism, but there are some legitimate reasons a woman might get paid less than a man for the same job.

It isn't that simple - employers will give somewhat lower wages to women anticipating that at some point, perhaps in the future, she may have a child, not on a sure knowledge that she will.

This is the reason why many successful high up women tend not to have children at all, and further why they all act worse then men.

I would much prefer a male boss than a female one, however the reasons for women being b!tches at work has to do with them trying to mimic men, in order to either keep their post, progress higher or get the deserved wage.
Though, it must be noted, that those who are indeed high up top, such as Diana Oppenheimer for example, are not only ridiculously successful, but extremely well paid.

I read that one of the main reasons that men make more is that they are more willing to put the company and making money above their personel lives then women are.

Take that WOMEN!

To literally have equality and equivalent pay in the workplace, governments would have to pass legislation requiring Corporations to freeze payrises, bonuses, promotions, and commissions whenever a male or female staffer takes time off for any reason at all.

Originally posted by shiv
To literally have equality and equivalent pay in the workplace, governments would have to pass legislation requiring Corporations to freeze payrises, bonuses, promotions, and commissions whenever a male or female staffer takes time off for any reason at all.

thats not what the wage gap means though

it has nothing to do with everyone earning the same, but rather, that when you control for the variables you mention, and many others, it appears that someone's gender plays a fairly significant role in how much money they make.

I don't think I've ever heard someone argue that commissioned employees deserve gross equal pay including said commissions...

Originally posted by shiv
To literally have equality and equivalent pay in the workplace, governments would have to pass legislation requiring Corporations to freeze payrises, bonuses, promotions, and commissions whenever a male or female staffer takes time off for any reason at all. Your longer post was much more fun.

Sounds like a normal thing for them to whine about.No matter what they are never happy about anything.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Sounds like a normal thing for them to whine about.No matter what they are never happy about anything.

Feminists are happy about many things.

And it seems like a reasonable thing to "whine" about anyways. Do you not feel bad that you'd make less money than a man of similar qualifications?

They always find something wrong with the small stuff.I am not in that kind of work detail like the one they are complaining about and where I work both man and woman have the same amount of money if they are manger then that is a different story.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
They always find something wrong with the small stuff.I am not in that kind of work detail like the one they are complaining about and where I work both man and woman have the same amount of money if they are manger then that is a different story.

It's not just in a specific group of jobs.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
They always find something wrong with the small stuff.I am not in that kind of work detail like the one they are complaining about and where I work both man and woman have the same amount of money if they are manger then that is a different story.

Where do you work?

Then what jobs do you consider this happening too?

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Then what jobs do you consider this happening too?

Almost all of them above the minimum wage, probably. But it's more about careers anyways, I believe.

That is true but I still think that it is really not that bad.If you think about it a long ago woman was not allowed to get jobs or vote so compare to not getting paid the same it is really not a big deal.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
That is true but I still think that it is really not that bad.If you think about it a long ago woman was not allowed to get jobs or vote so compare to not getting paid the same it is really not a big deal.

It's not as bad as it was, but it is still bad, and should not be condoned, don't you think?

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Then what jobs do you consider this happening too?

historically, it was the norm in all jobs, and generally the trend has been toward more equality in all fields, so there is a chance that you are in a field or with a company with an equitive pay policy.

it's probably best not to just pass this off as "whining" though. even if you feel you have equal opportunity with your company, this is not the case for many women.

I guess that is true and I see what you mean.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Your longer post was much more fun.

It was the kind of post where 9 times out of 10 someone would pick one sentence out of it, highlight it and and start quoting it out of context.

Figured I didn't need the hassle. but it is true Men are at their most powerful and energetic in their 20s
Women hit the peak of their reproductive health in their 20s
Graduates and Apprentices in mid-high earning professions enter the work place in their 20s
Higher earners seeking to rise to the top of their industry create the foundation for their career path in their 20s

Women have less Grey Matter than Men And less Testosterone. This doesn't exactly give them a big advantage when it comes to tasks which require enterprise and competition.

Women have more white matter, They talk more and place a higher priority on relationships.

Men are more likely to put in overtime and work longer 'unsocial' or 'anti-social' hours than the fairer sex.

If I had a choice between a guy and a girl both 25 and equal in experience and skill, I'd hire the guy.

(Two women I work with are on maternity leave, they both gave birth this month) We're fully staffed but we took on people with no experience with how we do business. It means The rest of us have to suffer, work overtime with people who are clueless without missing deadlines and targets.

The company is paying them whilst they take maternity leave.


IMO. I don't see why pay should be equal when committment is unequal.



"is this fun enough for you?"

Originally posted by shiv
Women have less Grey Matter than Men And less Testosterone. This doesn't exactly give them a big advantage when it comes to tasks which require enterprise and competition.

Women have more white matter, They talk more and place a higher priority on relationships.

If I had a choice between a guy and a girl both 25 and equal in experience and skill, I'd hire the guy.

If you're forced to base your hiring decisions on statistics and averages then the people in charge of checking out new applicants are clearly not doing their jobs.

Originally posted by shiv

The company is paying them whilst they take maternity leave.



So you hate children?

define children.

Originally posted by shiv
define children.

children

1. things shiv hates

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you're forced to base your hiring decisions on statistics and averages then the people in charge of checking out new applicants are clearly not doing their jobs.

based on fact chum.

based on fact obtained through use of the scientific method.

Originally posted by shiv
based on fact chum.

based on fact obtained through use of the scientific method.

Facts and the scientific method also tell us that individuals vary massively.

Originally posted by Bardock42
children

1. things shiv hates

I do not hate children.

Originally posted by shiv
I do not hate children.

I don't know, the definition is making a pretty convincing point.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Facts and the scientific method also tell us that individuals vary massively.

Facts vary.

A Fact does not vary.

The sun emits electromagnetic radiation. This is a Fact. This is a fact which does not vary. The fact that this fact does not vary is also a Fact.

Originally posted by shiv
Facts vary.

A Fact does not vary.

The sun emits electromagnetic radiation. This is a Fact. This is a fact which does not vary. The fact that this fact does not vary is also a Fact.

What Sym is saying is that if you choose by statistics you choose by an only somewhat related fact. Rather than by facts which are much closer to real use. If you had to decide blindly, statistics would be a good way, but really that's what you said at some point, by saying if other qualifications were equal.

Originally posted by shiv
Facts vary.

A Fact does not vary.

The sun emits electromagnetic radiation. This is a Fact. This is a fact which does not vary. The fact that this fact does not vary is also a Fact.

So, uh, you think that all women are perfect examples of the statistical average? Now, I'll admit the only thing I did to check this was look around me but I think I've gone a long way toward disproving that idea.

A competent department head should actually know things about the people who apply beyond their sex, skill and experience level. Just for example: there are professional women who simply aren't going to have kids, eliminating that problem, and I know a lot of women who are competitive. Background checks or even just interviews will uncover these things and let you move beyond blind guessing aided by statistics.

Originally posted by shiv
It was the kind of post where 9 times out of 10 someone would pick one sentence out of it, highlight it and and start quoting it out of context.

Figured I didn't need the hassle. but it is true Men are at their most powerful and energetic in their 20s
Women hit the peak of their reproductive health in their 20s
Graduates and Apprentices in mid-high earning professions enter the work place in their 20s
Higher earners seeking to rise to the top of their industry create the foundation for their career path in their 20s

Women have less Grey Matter than Men And less Testosterone. This doesn't exactly give them a big advantage when it comes to tasks which require enterprise and competition.

Women have more white matter, They talk more and place a higher priority on relationships.

Men are more likely to put in overtime and work longer 'unsocial' or 'anti-social' hours than the fairer sex.

If I had a choice between a guy and a girl both 25 and equal in experience and skill, I'd hire the guy.

(Two women I work with are on maternity leave, they both gave birth this month) We're fully staffed but we took on people with no experience with how we do business. It means The rest of us have to suffer, work overtime with people who are clueless without missing deadlines and targets.

The company is paying them whilst they take maternity leave.


IMO. I don't see why pay should be equal when committment is unequal.



"is this fun enough for you?"

do you have a reference list?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So, uh, you think that all women are perfect examples of the statistical average?


I believe in standard deviation.
I believe in the study of human biology.

do you know the standard deviation values of the character traits you assigned to men and women?

Originally posted by inimalist
do you know the standard deviation values of the character traits you assigned to men and women? Is it 5?

Originally posted by shiv
I believe in standard deviation.

First you have to know what the standard deviation is for each trait.
Then you have to choose to not hire the ~15% of women more than one standard deviation above normal just because you're lazy.

Originally posted by shiv
I believe in the study of human biology.

So?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Is it 5?

i wouldn't know

shiv brought SDs up in the first place though

Originally posted by inimalist
i wouldn't know

shiv brought SDs up in the first place though

6?

Originally posted by Bardock42
6?

the only thing i might assume is that it will be significantly (as in p </= 0.05) higher in males than females.

9