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To hell with it can't see a thunderbolts thread. This looks like its going to be a very interesting series especially when you have supervillians involved. I think there was a very touching scene between Moonstone and Luke at the beginning of the arc which shows that Moonstone is not completely evil and does have feelings. I can also see that the relationship between Moonstone and Luke Cage is going to become an important issue as the series goes on.

Im glad to see Crossbones in there as well and hopefully we will get to see him to do some cool stuff. In all its a very interesting cast of characters and im excited to see where it will all lead.

Gotta admit I knew little about Moonstone and was only familliar with her from DA and in those books she seemed like some crazy b!tch to me, its nice to know that there's more to her than that.
Hate the fact that they depowered Juggernaut though..

Originally posted by SamZED
Gotta admit I knew little about Moonstone and was only familliar with her from DA and in those books she seemed like some crazy b!tch to me, its nice to know that there's more to her than that.
Hate the fact that they depowered Juggernaut though.. You won't be disappointed, if you backtrack her earlier career in the Thunderbolts, when Clint was leading.

Back in the days, when there was only 1 Hulk messing about.

I liked the issues so far, the first mission was absolutely underwhelming and they aren't fighting any iconic enemy. Those are my two complains, otherwise the rooster is quite good, the cast is interesting and most of all I love to see Juggernaut depowered and going down like a chump.

But thats just me 131

I am really disappointed that mister x and paladin now disapear back into obscurity

Art could be better.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I am really disappointed that mister x and paladin now disapear back into obscurity

At least they didn't get totally ignored like Yelena Belova.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Art could be better.



At least they didn't get totally ignored like Yelena Belova.





she dead thats why remember?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
she dead thats why remember?

I heard about that, but she appeared in MCP v2 and we've seen her in suspended animation in Thunderbolts. She was about to take Nuke's place as a leader, but then Diggle left and the successive writers ignored that.

Crossbones is steadily becoming one of my favorite Thunderbolts. Is it me or Captain America has a cool rogue gallery?

I like the concept, and I think that Ghost is an amazing character

is Cain still depowered?

Originally posted by Bentley
Crossbones is steadily becoming one of my favorite Thunderbolts. Is it me or Captain America has a cool rogue gallery?

Brock is a Neo-Nazi; have to be to work with Red Skull for so long. Can't really like him.

You can't like a fictional character because it's associated with Nazism? Or am I misunderstanding?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
You can't like a fictional character because it's associated with Nazism? Or am I misunderstanding? He meant it as he wrote it.

Don't anyone else feel Crossbone trying replace Bullseye essential as that crazy killer feel?

lts The new Thunderbolts run is awesome, Thunderbolts has always been a good solid book, using a great mismash of character.

Originally posted by Warlord
is Cain still depowered?

He regained his power during World War Hulk, but lost most of it again in a recent issue of Spider-Man.

Originally posted by Tron
He regained his power during World War Hulk, but lost most of it again in a recent issue of Spider-Man.

yes I mean after the event with captain universe...
i was hoping they would give him his power back in the Thunderbolts

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
You can't like a fictional character because it's associated with Nazism? Or am I misunderstanding?

No; that's exactly what I mean.
Red Skull is a great villain, but it doesn't mean he's one of those characters I'll come to like in some way, like Joker or Kingpin. He's repulsive with that ideology, and his associates are the same.

Originally posted by Nihilist
lts The new Thunderbolts run is awesome, Thunderbolts has always been a good solid book, using a great mismash of character. Agreed.

Different reactions and more in-depth background knowledge/personality of second tier heroes/villains.

Moonstone isn't a good friend. >Songbird.

Originally posted by roughrider
No; that's exactly what I mean.
Red Skull is a great villain, but it doesn't mean he's one of those characters I'll come to like in some way, like Joker or Kingpin. He's repulsive with that ideology, and his associates are the same.

I actually like Red Skull mostly because he never comes out as sympathetic, most writers cannot work around that but it can be an interesting position in a world where everything wants to be shades of gray.

Why is nobody talking about this series? ls it me or is Crossbones a really cool guy when he's not being evil? I think a bromance between juggs and crossbones is developing.

Originally posted by roughrider
No; that's exactly what I mean.
Red Skull is a great villain, but it doesn't mean he's one of those characters I'll come to like in some way, like Joker or Kingpin. He's repulsive with that ideology, and his associates are the same.
So because Joker isn't a Nazi he's likable?

I don't think Joker would be any more of a Monster than he already is if he started wearing a Swastika.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
So because Joker isn't a Nazi he's likable?

I don't think Joker would be any more of a Monster than he already is if he started wearing a Swastika. if he wore a swastika, he would be a racist then...which would make him worse.

Originally posted by Starscream M
if he wore a swastika, he would be a racist then...which would make him worse.
I don't believe that murder becomes any more terrible when its dressed up in an ideology.

Also Oskar Schindler wore a Nazi party pin for the entirety of Schindler's List.

Wearing a Swastika on its own isn't a 10+ evil stat buff.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlerAteSugar

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't believe that murder becomes any more terrible when its dressed up in an ideology.

Also Oskar Schindler wore a Nazi party pin for the entirety of Schindler's List.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlerAteSugar oscar schindler faked to be a nazi so he could gain influence and hence save more jews...so analogy fail

Originally posted by Starscream M
oscar schindler faked to be a nazi so he could gain influence and hence save more jews...so analogy fail
Actually he was a real member of the Nazi party before he ever set out to save the Jews.

His original plan was to use Jews as cheap/free labor for war profiteering.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Actually he was a real member of the Nazi party before he ever set out to save the Jews.

His original plan was to use Jews as cheap/free labor for war profiteering. well, the nazis weren't always about genocide

schindler was never part of that type of nazis

Originally posted by Starscream M
well, the nazis weren't always about genocide

schindler was never part of that type of nazis
So I still don't see why Joker wearing a Swastika would magically make him any more irredeemably evil than he already is.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
So I still don't see why Joker wearing a Swastika would magically make him any more irredeemably evil than he already is. because joker knows exactly what the nazis stand for as we commonly understand them to be today

basically extremely racist genocidal maniacs...that simply wasn't the case when schindler was in the party

Originally posted by Starscream M
because joker knows exactly what the nazis stand for as we commonly understand them to be today

basically extremely racist genocidal maniacs...that simply wasn't the case when schindler was in the party
I can't believe we Godwin's Law-ed this topic. facepalm

Anywhoozles I'll say it again: being a Nazi murderer isn't any worse than being an ordinary murderer. It's just cultural bias that makes it seem worse.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I can't believe we Godwin's Law-ed this topic. facepalm

Anywhoozles I'll say it again: being a Nazi murderer isn't any worse than being an ordinary murderer. It's just cultural bias that makes it seem worse. there's no such thing as being an ordinary murderer...as that gives no indication of motive

being a nazi murderer tells you that the person is killing simply because he views others as inferior

now, there exist legitimate reasons for murdering and we simply can't group all murderers under one umbrella...however convenient it may be for your purposes

Originally posted by Starscream M
there's no such thing as being an ordinary murderer...as that gives no indication of motive

being a nazi murderer tells you that the person is killing simply because he views others as inferior

now, there exist legitimate reasons for murdering and we simply can't group all murderers under one umbrella...however convenient it may be for your purposes
So you're arguing that a man who bites the heads off of puppies for fun would be less monstrous than a man who also bites the heads off of puppies for fun but is a registered member of the American Nazi party?

I'm arguing that the moral wrongness of an evil act does not change on a person by person basis. Joker is still a monster whether or not he's a Nazi.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
So you're arguing that a man who bites the heads off of puppies for fun would be less monstrous than a man who also bites the heads off of puppies for fun but is a registered member of the American Nazi party?

I'm arguing that the moral wrongness of an evil act does not change on a person by person basis. Joker is still a monster whether or not he's a Nazi. I'm arguing that a man who was sexually abused as a kid and then commits rape is on a slightly higher moral hill than a man who grew up in a great family and then commits rape

the former has some extenuating circumstances to explain his behavior

hence, joker being simply a madman psychopath is understandable to a degree...yet him being racist strike a chord of cognitive dissonance with his background

Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm arguing that a man who was sexually abused as a kid and then commits rape is on a slightly higher moral hill than a man who grew up in a great family and then commits rape

the former has some extenuating circumstances to explain his behavior

hence, joker being simply a madman psychopath is understandable to a degree...yet him being racist strike a chord of cognitive dissonance with his background

glad I finally rendered you speechless...logic prevails over all.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
So I still don't see why Joker wearing a Swastika would magically make him any more irredeemably evil than he already is.

Hes not evil hes crazy. What are you doing to my thread?

Sorry Deadline.
Originally posted by Starscream M
glad I finally rendered you speechless...logic prevails over all.
Lol. Just lol.

Declaring one criminal worse than another based on an external socio-political connection in one case is about as illogical as you can get.

Sentimentalism makes Nazis more evil in the eyes of some people than other equally repugnant criminals.

Originally posted by Deadline
Hes not evil hes crazy. What are you doing to my thread?
His insanity doesn't morally absolve him of guilt for his crimes one bit. Nor does it magically make anything he does less disgusting than what Redskull does.

Anyway I'm done derailing this thread.

Originally posted by Omega Vision



His insanity doesn't morally absolve him of guilt for his crimes one bit.

Actually it does. Hes not doing it out of free will his insanity causes him to do it.



Originally posted by Omega Vision
Nor does it magically make anything he does less disgusting than what Redskull does.

Anyway I'm done derailing this thread.

Yea the Red Skull is evil he choose to be evil.

Cheers I was getting into the debate a bit though.

Originally posted by Deadline
Actually it does. Hes not doing it out of free will his insanity causes him to do it.





Yea the Red Skull is evil he choose to be evil.

Cheers I was getting into the debate a bit though.
So crazy people don't have free will now?

Fun fact: insanity is not a medical term, its a legal definition usually cooked up by defense lawyers of which Joker has many.

The Joker is not crazy in the true sense of the word, if you admit Joker is crazy you have to admit Johann is crazy too, because their actions come from the twisted way of perceiving reality they have. Current Red Skull hardly adheres to National Socialism anyways, he's well past being "a nazi".

Originally posted by Omega Vision
So crazy people don't have free will now?

Fun fact: insanity is not a medical term, its a legal definition usually cooked up by defense lawyers of which Joker has many.

It depends on what condition they have.

Of course that happens but you actually think that there are no people with any mental conditions were they have problems distinguishing between good and evil?

Originally posted by Bentley
The Joker is not crazy in the true sense of the word, if you admit Joker is crazy you have to admit Johann is crazy too, because their actions come from the twisted way of perceiving reality they have. Current Red Skull hardly adheres to National Socialism anyways, he's well past being "a nazi".

No you don't. They have two different origins. Red Skull at one point decided he liked being evil. If you look at the Killing Joke, his showings with MM and Spectre it all implies that Joker insane. Howevere his showing with Todd contradicts that.

Joker is crazy, he's way too self-aware not to be crazy. In the real world we don't have the commodities of psychic to invent terms as insane which are conveniantly lodged in the psychic constitution of the mind.

Johann had a life full of trauma and pain before going nazi, he could be considered a crazy sociopath and thus crazy in real life.

Enjoying thus far, except for that ninja batkicking Juggernaut

Originally posted by Don Corleone
Enjoying thus far, except for that ninja batkicking Juggernaut


Would it be better if that ninja happened to be Bruce Wayne?

Too bad Crossbones is out.

Originally posted by Bentley
Would it be better if that ninja happened to be Bruce Wayne?

No!

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Too bad Crossbones is out. yeah he was good but it is needed.

I do tend to like how they've been portraying Cain the last few issues.

Originally posted by Newjak
yeah he was good but it is needed.

I do tend to like how they've been portraying Cain the last few issues.

So do I. Parker is showing us Juggs ain't dumb at all and has an indomitable will.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
So do I. Parker is showing us Juggs ain't dumb at all and has an indomitable will. Yeah that's twice now Cain ahs been the man with the plan.
First in their assault on the ninjas and him getting man-thing going.

There showing him as what he is. A thinking human being that has tons of experience.

Originally posted by Starscream M
oscar schindler faked to be a nazi so he could gain influence and hence save more jews...so analogy fail
Joker could fake being a nazi so he could gain influence and kill more people.

I mean really, it's all about motivation.

Hyperion's gonna be a Thunderbolt.

I think Juggs will be fighting Hyperion next month. I have a feeling that were not finished with Crossbones there was a suggestion that the mutation made him kill that guy.

I'm also finding Moonstone interesting I thought she would have been gushing all over Hyperion but she hated his gutts. Shes interesting in the sense that she is bad person but seems to recognise goodness and respects it....its like she wants to be good but doesn't really know how.

Yay! I can't wait for Luke to go one on one against Hype!

Time to drown all those "King Hyperion" myths

Originally posted by Bentley
Yay! I can't wait for Luke to go one on one against Hype!

Time to drown all those "King Hyperion" myths

Juggs is taking on Hype (I think), not Cage.

Well its apparently the same Hyperion that was defeated by Blue Marvel

It's going to be the team vs. Hype .

Originally posted by Deadline
Juggs is taking on Hype (I think), not Cage.


Dude, a Doombot and Count Nefaria have been pummeled by those fists. Luke is going to be throwing Hyperion around.

^ Are you pretending to be a troll again?

Originally posted by Deadline
^ Are you pretending to be a troll again?


More like making sarcastic remarks about all the love Luke gets.

I'm sick of it as well.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I'm sick of it as well.

I don't know its been pointed out several times that Luke Cage has been treated well in the HFH series.

Maybe this is some sort of karma thing. I've always wanted black characters to be represented more in comics and they're are doing that now. Maybe they are going too far.

Originally posted by Deadline
I don't know its been pointed out several times that Luke Cage has been treated well in the HFH series.

Maybe this is some sort of karma thing. I've always wanted black characters to be represented more in comics and they're are doing that now. Maybe they are going too far.


Luke and Iron-fist are cool characters who deserve respect, but I feel that the way they are being portrayed as of now is way too mainstream.

There are black characters other than Luke, T'challa and *gasp* Shuri. (Bendis actually killed Brother Voodoo over nothing, which was a shame)

Originally posted by Bentley
Luke and Iron-fist are cool characters who deserve respect, but I feel that the way they are being portrayed as of now is way too mainstream.

Hes fine in Thunderbolts.

Originally posted by Bentley

There are black characters other than Luke, T'challa and *gasp* Shuri. (Bendis actually killed Brother Voodoo over nothing, which was a shame)

I think the problem is that Luke is kinda the prime stereotype for a black man and he represents the crap and progress that black people have put up with in America. In a way hes the Captain America for black people. The focus on Luke Cage represents the success that black people have made in America. I agree they shouldn't just focus on those guys that is kinda annoying.

Hyde looks pretty formidable. Wonder if he's gonna job again.

Since when has he been that huge though?

I mean holding Songbird in one hand and all, whereas most of his apperances he's only a bit bigger than a normal person...

He's never been bigger than Juggernaut, yeah. Maybe the serum works on him different now? How is he even gonna fit in a comic book panel?

The Man-Thing/Satana dynamic is interesting. There is an old story where this weird goth/witch character has a pseudosexual relationship with MT, sort of get that vibe good to see a bit of the weird

Originally posted by inimalist
The Man-Thing/Satana dynamic is interesting. There is an old story where this weird goth/witch character has a pseudosexual relationship with MT, sort of get that vibe good to see a bit of the weird

I knew you'd love that

--
I really liked that MACH-V recruited good ol' Shocker partially because he was a Spiderboy's villain. Old hatreds never die.

Starting with the last TB issue Satana is my favorite character.

Yeah, I'm still liking Thunderbolts after all these years, and I've been reading it since the very first issue came out (except the Fight Club fiasco, I didn't really read them).

I was ready for a change after the Dark Reign period and I think Cage works quite well as the new leader - I like the way the series reinvents itself over different periods. Having guys like Juggernaut, Ghost, Man-Thing, and Satana coming in are all interesting. It's also good having some of the originals around and Moonstone should always be in it. The only thing they should change right now is the art - I think it could be better.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I knew you'd love that

--
I really liked that MACH-V recruited good ol' Shocker partially because he was a Spiderboy's villain. Old hatreds never die.

ya, that was a good scene too

made me smile, gotta love shocker