LOTF Kyp, Kyle and Corran vs RoT Bane and DoE Zannah

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Hewhoknowsall
RoT Bane (with orbalisks) and DoE Zannah are somehow transported to LOTF times in Naboo. In order to gather supplies, they raid a home and kill everyone but one, who turns out to be a Jedi. This Jedi warns the Council of these 2 sith, and Kyp, Kyle and Corran are sent to investigate. They find the 2 sith, and the encounter happens.

Remember that, since this isn't on Ambria, Zannah's sorcery won't be as powerful.

truejedi
Jedi win this.

Lord Lucien
Oh yeah.

Nephthys
Naw.

Lord Lucien
YA haw.

truejedi
def ya Haw.

Nephthys
LOTF Kyle got his Jedi-butt curbstomped by a wounded Jacen, Kyp is vaguely powerful at best, a complete unknown at worst, Bane can take them both on and I'd say Zannah can take Corran.

truejedi
Kyp is more powerful than Luke at best, not "vaguely powerful" at best. His top feat is more powerful than Bane's. Kyle beat Desann, Tavion, and Jerec (in the valley of the jedi) He is also the blademaster of the LOTF jedi.

He got beaten by "more powerful than Darth Vader" Jacen.

You are seriously out of your mind if you think Bane can take them both.

Lord Lucien
Maybe one of them at a time he could, but both of any of these at once, nah.

Nephthys
Which is? As far as I can tell, the guy's never been in a real fight, and sure as hell has few feats to his name.



A Nobody.



A Nobody.



OK, yeah, Impressive.



And a poor one seeing as how Jacen beat his ass with ease in LOTF.



A weakened Jacen who was recovering from multiple wounds and Kyle had 2-3 Jedi Knights with him.



He could stalemate them at least, and then Zannah stabs one in the back ala ROT.

truejedi
not in a million years.

ares834
lol at the Bane wank fest...

I agree with TJ and LL; the Jedi win.

Pwned
What about Farfallas statement about Bane being "Like a force of nature" in a fight? thats got to mean SOMETHING.......

Also, the orbaliks would help ALOT, seeing as how Kyle and Kyp/Corran would have to get through Banes defenses..

Dont start spouting shit about force lightning from Kyle either, Banes force defenses have probably stood up to something FAR more powerful

truejedi
Originally posted by Pwned
Dont start spouting shit about force lightning from Kyle either, Banes force defenses have probably stood up to something FAR more powerful
*giggles*

Pwned
Yes, i know its not that good, but im not sure how powerful Kyles force lightning is, and i dont know what all Bane has blocked

truejedi
so your "probably" should be changed to "I hope" ?

amiright?

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by Nephthys

And a poor one seeing as how Jacen beat his ass with ease in LOTF.

A weakened Jacen who was recovering from multiple wounds and Kyle had 2-3 Jedi Knights with him.


The mission wasn't to defeat Jacen, but to plant a tracking device on him. While I can't prove Kyle wasn't fighting at his full potential, i don't think you can prove he was.

The Jedi win. 2v2 the sith may take it, adding the third master tilts the odds in the Jedi's favor.

The Contact
Where does the idea that Corran and Kyle are anything but hopelessly outclassed in this matchup come from exactly?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Pwned
What about Farfallas statement about Bane being "Like a force of nature" in a fight? thats got to mean SOMETHING....... Not really. One guy's thoughts about another guy don't mean a whole lot. Just like Revan being "the heart of the Force" or Sidious being a "blackhole of darkness and death" or some shit.

Originally posted by Pwned
Also, the orbaliks would help ALOT, seeing as how Kyle and Kyp/Corran would have to get through Banes defenses..Yeah they would. But these dudes got more going for them than Farfalla, Worror, Rasktsa and that guy who sucks.

Originally posted by Pwned
Dont start spouting shit about force lightning from Kyle either, Banes force defenses have probably stood up to something FAR more powerful Probably. Or probably not.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by The Contact
Where does the idea that Corran and Kyle are anything but hopelessly outclassed in this matchup come from exactly?

Not sure why you would think that.

Hewhoknowsall
It seems as though a lot of the members of the NJO have very speculative levels. Like, what level is Kyle on?

truejedi
compared to what?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by truejedi
compared to what?

Compared to other established characters.

truejedi
seems to be near Luke's level in the force. He personally believes he is stronger. He can't be too far away from Luke and still believe that.

(though Jacen thought he was near Luke's level too until he made him mad...)

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by truejedi
seems to be near Luke's level in the force. He personally believes he is stronger. He can't be too far away from Luke and still believe that.

(though Jacen thought he was near Luke's level too until he made him mad...)

I was referring to Kyle, although Kyp's level is a little speculative too.

truejedi
Kyle? I would put Kyle as the third most powerful Jedi Alive in FOTJ. Behind Luke and Kyp.

Vorpal Ruin
It'd be nice if they gave more of the masters some feats, like Kenth, Octa and Masters Solusar.

Zampanó
Originally posted by truejedi
Kyle? I would put Kyle as the third most powerful Jedi Alive in FOTJ. Behind Luke and Kyp.
big grin

truejedi
yeah, we have no idea how powerful ANY of them are except by Lobi's defeat at the hands of Alema and Lumiya, and Luke's comparison to Galan in FOTJ.

Zampanó
I know exactly how powerful I am, thank you very much.

Gideon's mom knows too.

Lord Lucien

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by truejedi
Luke's comparison to Galan in FOTJ.

Could you provide that quote please? Are you talking about Galan Marek?

truejedi
no. but he said Rhea was the level of a Jedi master. and He said Galan maybe could fight Kyle and Kyp: and speaking of galan the dark lord leading the sith.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by truejedi
no. but he said Rhea was the level of a Jedi master. and He said Galan maybe could fight Kyle and Kyp: and speaking of galan the dark lord leading the sith.

This confused the shit out of me.

Rhea was a sith Lady, so I assumed that she was on par with a Jedi Master.

Who said Galan could fight Kyle and Kyp?

Galan is the dark lord leading the sith? Not Lord Vol?

truejedi
Gaalan I think is his name. He was a leader of the strike team. and yes to the rest.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by truejedi
Kyle? I would put Kyle as the third most powerful Jedi Alive in FOTJ. Behind Luke and Kyp.

I was thinking about how powerful they are compared to, say, the PT Jedi. It's hard to tell.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by truejedi
Gaalan I think is his name. He was a leader of the strike team. and yes to the rest.

I'm pretty sure Lady Rhea was in charge of the strike team. Master Xal was second in command. Unless we are referring to different strike teams.

truejedi
we are... Gaalan's group captured the night sisters. The group was all wiped out except for him.

Vorpal Ruin
Oh, I haven't read that then. Ive only read through Backlash.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by truejedi
we are... Gaalan's group captured the night sisters. The group was all wiped out except for him.

Huh? I thought that there were other survivors in THAT group.

truejedi
in the ship that left before the group arrived, yes, but once Luke and Co. arrived on the scene, Gaalan was the only one who got away.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by truejedi
in the ship that left before the group arrived, yes, but once Luke and Co. arrived on the scene, Gaalan was the only one who got away.

Yet Gaalan was accompanied by 4 sith sabers, and those 4 sith sabers were killed. However, during the fight there was Gaalan, that female sith and 6 other sith and no reported casualties on the sith side.

BTW, if Gaalan was the only member of that task force to survive, how would he maintain control over 18 nightsisters?

truejedi
i could be wrong. *shrug* but i thought Ben and the merc with Ben killed the other sith with him. who knows. I only read it once.

Eminence
truejedi
seems to be near Luke's level in the force. He personally believes he is stronger. He can't be too far away from Luke and still believe that.
Malak, Dooku, Ventress, Anakin, Jacen?

I think he can.

truejedi
what? Dooku knew Yoda was stronger. He TOLD Yoda that he (Dooku was stronger) but his inner monologue in DR makes it clear he knew Yoda was stronger. (thus the back-up plan).

Malak knew Revan was stronger, and that was the reason he would only fight him on the star forge. (and perhaps revan wasn't A LOT stronger than Malak? Which is the only thing I claimed with Kyp and Luke)

Anakin was stronger in the force than Kenobi, no doubt.

And after his encounter with Luke, Jacen realized he wasn't near Luke's level, but he never outright stated (inner monologue of course) that he was stronger than Luke.


Besides, i'm talking force only. It is repeatedly pointed out that Luke is a better swordsman than everyone else, including Kyp. your examples are all combat situations that involved sabers.

My only point is that Kyp isn't super far off from luke in the force.

Sorry if that caused confusion.

Shoes
I've become more powerful than any Jedi... even you.

Movie = Highest Canon

Lord Lucien
It's true, there's no arguing it.

truejedi
argue what? Of course he said it. that's undeniable. Its equally inescapable that canon also tells us he didn't really believe it.

Lord Lucien
Nope, Dooku didn't describe that he didn't believe it, but he did say it like he meant it.

Movie=highest canon. Dooku>Yoda.

Shoes
Those are contradicting statements.

Dooku said he was more powerful than Yoda.

Dooku said that Yoda was more powerful than him.

I wonder which is higher canon?

truejedi
Originally posted by Shoes
Those are contradicting statements.

Dooku said he was more powerful than Yoda.

Dooku said that Yoda was more powerful than him.

I wonder which is higher canon?

Sidious said to Anakin that the Jedi were trying to take over. Did he mean that?

Kenobi said to Luke that Vader killed his father. Did he mean that?

People say things they don't mean in a fight. Its called bluffing.

You are trying to disqualify canon with your own interpretation of Dooku's intent.

I don't stand for you ignoring canon, so try again.

(way to take 1/4th of my argument and go off on this tangent anyway, and ignore the argument as a whole., Real classy.)

Lord Lucien
Dooku's intent/interpretation>>>>>yours.

Dooku>>>Yoda.

truejedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Dooku's intent/interpretation>>>>>yours.

Dooku>>>Yoda.

Your interpretation of Dooku's intent < Dark Rendevous provided inner monologue. Simple as that.

truejedi
Originally posted by truejedi

(way to take 1/4th of my argument and go off on this tangent anyway, and ignore the argument as a whole., Real classy.)

and this.

Lord Lucien
No, no you're wrong. Shut up.

truejedi
haha. I get it now. You are impersonating Shoes.

very nice LL.

Shoes
Dooku said he was more powerful. Since this is directly contradicted by DR, we must assume DR was inaccurate.

truejedi
you are a fool. Sorry. But if you can't understand that someone can say something without meaning it, your life will be short and full of disappointed hardship.

He says it in ROTS. He then runs away from his fight with someone he is more powerful than. It is later revealed in DR that he didn't really think he was more powerful than Yoda. Nothing contradicts.

This is your weakest point. EVAH.

Zampanó
Originally posted by Shoes
Dooku said he was more powerful. Since this is directly contradicted by DR, we must assume DR was inaccurate.
I can't tell if you'r trolling intentionally or not.

I think so. (Reported.)

REXXXX
Be civil, folks.

Eminence
truejedi
what? Dooku knew Yoda was stronger. He TOLD Yoda that he (Dooku was stronger) but his inner monologue in DR makes it clear he knew Yoda was stronger. (thus the back-up plan).
You are aware that Dark Rendezvous takes place two and a half years after Attack of the Clones, yes? That prior to Attack of the Clones Dooku hadn't met Yoda in at least a decade? That he spent the years after his resignation from the Jedi Order studying under the Sith, gaining new and greater powers?

Dooku is not an idiot. Had he known he was incapable of besting his master on even ground he wouldn't have risked his life and the Death Star plans in such a futile attempt, particularly given that he'd just fought through a pair of young, skilled Jedi Knights and knew a clone army had to be on its way.

If DR can be used as evidence of anything, it is this. Reckless courage isn't in his character.


Malak can only conclusively be said to have known that Revan was more powerful than he'd been before; prior to the fight, he hadn't acknowledged that Revan was more powerful than he was.

Regardless, he believed that the Star Forge would make him strong enough to defeat Revan, and he was wrong. This establishes that he has a poor idea of the power gap between himself and Revan.





IIRC, Jacen believed he was the second most powerful man in the galaxy, and that he was strong enough to at least counter Luke's telekinetic assaults. The former would mean he is stronger than Durron, and the latter is demonstratably false, meaning either Durron is nowhere near as powerful as Luke circa LOTF or that Solo has an even poorer grasp of his own powers relative to those of his peers than we'd suspected.

Either way, he is not a good judge of his own strength.


a.) Almost all combat situations involve sabers.

b.) Only one of these situations involves a combat situation that may have primarily involved sabers.


I'm not saying he is, but the reasoning behind your conclusion is erroneous.

truejedi
Originally posted by Eminence
You are aware that Dark Rendezvous takes place two and a half years after Attack of the Clones, yes? That prior to Attack of the Clones Dooku hadn't met Yoda in at least a decade? That he spent the years after his resignation from the Jedi Order studying under the Sith, gaining new and greater powers?



So you are saying Dooku changed his mind about his relative position to Yoda between AOTC and DR? I can accept that.



And yet he ran away in AOTC. So he wasn't being quite as reckless as you might suppose.



This is almost assurdly a combat situation however.





This is true as well, and was the one example I pretty much countered myself in my original argument. Sith in general seem to overestimate themselves to be honest...





I misunderstood your Anakin example, since you were talking about Sidious instead of Kenobi, so you are (mostly) correct. The Revan Malak fight was probably a combat situation as well.



acknowledged. Kyp's feelings on the matters hardly settle the matter.
so two more points on the matter for consideration:


1.He did have an easier time manipulating the Dovin Basil than Luke did.

2. The test that Luke did on Leia to test her Force potential merely "pushed back" against Luke. With Kyp, the same test resulted in Luke being thrown across the room into a wall.

None of these things are conclusive alone, but together, they are enough to form an opinion on. So when N said "Kyp is vaguely powerful at best." I was not incorrect to say "Kyp is more powerful than Luke, at best."

at best being the key words.

Zampanó
I'd like to point out that, because of the nebulous understanding of Mendelian Genetics by the authors (as well as the laws of such in governing Earth's biology, at least), it is by no means certain that Leia and Luke have identical potentials.

truejedi
it is however, hardly out of the realm of imagination to suppose so.

ares834

truejedi
that is much too long an acronym. what does it mean?

ares834
Yeah it is...
Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

truejedi
haha. nice. can u quote the relevant passage just to settle it once and for all?

ares834
It's from Luke's perspective.
"One star like none of the others still swung through an orbit lower than his: a blue-white supergiant, far larger, far brighter than any his imagination had so far produced. This one did not feed upon his Force light, but shone with its own, as brilliant and powerful as his. It fell in a tightening tide-locked gyre down the black hole's gravity well, and as it fell the relentless pull of the void was stripping a huge jet of energy and mass from it, a fountain of star-stuff ripped from its heart and sucked down across the event horizon to vanish forever in dark beyond the Dark.

And he knew this star was Leia."

Eminence
truejedi
So you are saying Dooku changed his mind about his relative position to Yoda between AOTC and DR?
After getting his ass kicked, yes.


Good.


He ran away because he realized he was outclassed. It's improbable that Dooku believed he was taking an unnecessary risk to begin with, given that he believed himself beyond Yoda.


Which doesn't invalidate the parallel being drawn.


Entirely correct.


That would be the one I acknowledged.


Good.

truejedi
the yoda/Dooku was definitly a combat situation as well.

Eminence
The ensuing combat does not give or take credence from the assertion or the mindset in which it was made. Dooku believed himself to be more powerful than Yoda; the fact that he was about to fight him doesn't change that at all.

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