World Breaker Hulk vs Classic Juggernaut

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Ladies_Man_666
I tried to search it, don't think this has been done before.
So, who do you guys think would win this match?
BFR is not allowed. Also, lower showings of both characters are to be disregarded. They are both fighting at their optimum.

In my opinion, Juggernaut will prevail. Now I haven't read a ton of Marvel comics, but I've tried very hard searching for times where Juggernaut has been physically outclassed, and I can barely find any. Hulk with the Celestial Armor outdid Juggs, but that incident wasn't a fair representative of Hulk's power. Also, I can't find any incident where Juggernaut got KO'd in a fistfight. In fact, there's only one incident I recall where Juggernaut had actually been knocked out by someone. That was in the Onslaught Saga, but we still didn't see what Onslaught did to put him down. My guess would be a psionic attack, though, judging by how Onslaught fought him in a later issue. So to me it seems that Juggernaut is virtually impossible to knock out (correct me if I'm wrong, though).
Hulk, on the other hand, I've seen getting knocked out. Beat him long enough and he'll even revert to Banner.

WBH is indeed very, very powerful, being able to threaten the Eastern Seaboard with mere stomps, but for Juggernaut, the writers have stated (at least twice) that he can draw limitless power from Cyttorak. Now Hulk's strength has also been described as having 'No limit', but that doesn't exactly translate to 'infinite strength'. So while both won't have strength approaching infinite levels, and Hulk might be stronger than Juggy most of the time, it is still possible for Juggernaut to match him in terms of strength.

I trust you guys know more about his invulnerability advantage (something that Hulk lacks), so I'm not going to comment on it.

My two cents. What do you guys think?

Tattoos N Scars
Without BFR, Juggs wins. Hulk will tire out before Juggs will.

Ladies_Man_666
Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Without BFR, Juggs wins. Hulk will tire out before Juggs will.
So for all his strength, the Hulk can't KO Juggernaut?

Also, has Juggernaut ever been beaten into submission?

Colossus-Big C
no one can ko juggernaut , his durability is infinit

the only option is bfr

Tattoos N Scars
Originally posted by Ladies_Man_666
So for all his strength, the Hulk can't KO Juggernaut?

Also, has Juggernaut ever been beaten into submission?


No..and no. This is classic Juggs we're talking about.

vansonbee
Juggernaut abilities still outweigh Hulk.

Hulk can get amp all he wants, but Cain still puts him down with +1 to strength.

the ninjak
Juggernaut beats him until his HF gives.....if it can.

Colossus-Big C
i also dont think hulk tires
thats why in a fight these two would stalemate
juggs wouldnt get hurt
and hulk would just heal and get stronger and stronger while juggs gets stronger
eventually they start tearing the fabric of the universe

Stoic
This is a stalemate, Irresistable force meets immovable object scenario.

janus77
Hulk wins.

guy222
hulk wins

Mindset
How?

Cubey
Juggs.

Tattoos N Scars
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
i also dont think hulk tires
thats why in a fight these two would stalemate
juggs wouldnt get hurt
and hulk would just heal and get stronger and stronger while juggs gets stronger
eventually they start tearing the fabric of the universe


Sentry wore him out.

Stoic
Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Sentry wore him out.

How was he worn out when moments later he was more powerful than ever? Also Sentry is a very powerful character, he palmed an attack from Terrax that in the past cleaved a world in two. Yea and did it with a smile.

KingD19
Originally posted by Stoic
How was he worn out when moments later he was more powerful than ever? Also Sentry is a very powerful character, he palmed an attack from Terrax that in the past cleaved a world in two. Yea and did it with a smile.

Sentry caused him to revert to his human form....when he'd been in his WWH form for months, or maybe a few years.

That's worn out.

And Juggernaut is known for being the physically strongest guy out there. If he was in Contest of Champions, he would have stalemated Champion....or at least lasted longer than everybody else.

If Classic Jugg had gotten in a fight with Sentry...epic.

Tattoos N Scars
Originally posted by KingD19
Sentry caused him to revert to his human form....when he'd been in his WWH form for months, or maybe a few years.

That's worn out.

And Juggernaut is known for being the physically strongest guy out there. If he was in Contest of Champions, he would have stalemated Champion....or at least lasted longer than everybody else.

If Classic Jugg had gotten in a fight with Sentry...epic.


thumb up


co-sign for everything except Juggs being the strongest guy out there. Otherwise, good post.

KingD19
Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
thumb up


co-sign for everything except Juggs being the strongest guy out there. Otherwise, good post.

I meant to rephrase that, Classic Juggs seemed to be as strong as he needed to be.

And he's one of the strongest guys out there...but that list is fairly large.

Tattoos N Scars
Originally posted by KingD19
I meant to rephrase that, Classic Juggs seemed to be as strong as he needed to be.

And he's one of the strongest guys out there...but that list is fairly large.


lol..yeah. I was thinking about Thanos, Kurse, and Mangog when you said strongest out there.

Gecko4lif
Kurse should be the strongest

amnesia
Juggernaut wins.

Stoic
Nah he wouldn't even hurt Worldbreaker Hulk, and vice versa, although Juggy would be the one getting thrown around.

amnesia
classic juggernaut was truly unbeatable. He took a godblast as if it was nothing. (If you think WBH can take a godblast like nothing, you are silly.)

Stoic
Damage soak and damage output are two different things, Juggy wont be able to hurt WB Hulk, and as I said... vice versa, WB Hulk would be unable to hurt Juggs, although it would be Juggs who gets tossed around, it would still end in a stalemate.

the ninjak
Originally posted by KingD19
Sentry caused him to revert to his human form....when he'd been in his WWH form for months, or maybe a few years.

That's worn out.

And Juggernaut is known for being the physically strongest guy out there. If he was in Contest of Champions, he would have stalemated Champion....or at least lasted longer than everybody else.

If Classic Jugg had gotten in a fight with Sentry...epic.

No Sentry weakened him briefly.

The Stark satellite returned him to human form.

Actually I thought this was WWH! WBH could whack Juggs.

AsbestosFlaygon
Stalemate, methinks.

For all his durability, Classic Juggernaut does not have enough strength to even flinch WBH.

If this was a contest of strength, WBH would overpower Classic Juggernaut in a pushing contest.

And if there is a character who could move Classic Juggs below Skyfather-level, it would be WBH.

KingD19
Originally posted by the ninjak
No Sentry weakened him briefly.

The Stark satellite returned him to human form.

Actually I thought this was WWH! WBH could whack Juggs.

No, read it again. Sentry and WWH were goin at it, and finally they both went to punch, and Bruce ended up hitting Bob, not Hulk hitting Sentry.

Then something happened, and he got pissed and turned World Breaker, then he told Tony to use the satellite before he broke the world.

Mshinu
Juggs has punched out the stranger. He can surely do the same to the much wanked wbh with his sunday punch.

the ninjak
Originally posted by KingD19
No, read it again. Sentry and WWH were goin at it, and finally they both went to punch, and Bruce ended up hitting Bob, not Hulk hitting Sentry.

Then something happened, and he got pissed and turned World Breaker, then he told Tony to use the satellite before he broke the world.

That's right......good man. wink

WBH is supposed to be a rumblin kinetic nightmare.
He smashes the ground beneath Juggs into space. From a sewer.
Similar to the way WWH fought GR. But without the train....and going upwards.

Ladies_Man_666
Why can't he hurt The Hulk? As I mentioned earlier in my first post, Juggernaut has the ability to call upon even further power from Cyttorak. That should put him on equal footing with the Hulk at least, and allow him to hurt him.

Also, if anybody can answer it, what's the least physical punishment that has knocked out The Juggernaut? An explosion? A punch from some brute, maybe?

SamZED
Hulk can't hurt or ko the Juggernaut.
Juggerjnaut can hurt and ko the Hulk.
What's to discuss?erm

Mshinu
Originally posted by SamZED
Hulk can't hurt or ko the Juggernaut.
Juggerjnaut can hurt and ko the Hulk.
What's to discuss?erm

Yup, Juggs is superior in every way.

Estacado
Wait so Skaar can hurt WBH but Juggs cant?

h1a8
Originally posted by Stoic
How was he worn out when moments later he was more powerful than ever? Also Sentry is a very powerful character, he palmed an attack from Terrax that in the past cleaved a world in two. Yea and did it with a smile. He caught it up high (at the beginning of the swing), which has a LOT LESS momentum. Also Terrax cutting a world in half was not only due to his strength but was due to also the power protruding from the blade. Similar to Thor's hammer releasing lightning and godly energy in some of it's strikes. Now if Sentry caught the blade part (not the handle part) on the far down (almost end of the swing) then that would have been one hell of a feat.

I see this as a stalemate since neither Juggs can be hurt here nor Juggs is fast or skilled enough to pound Hulk over and over before his HF can fully regenerate. Hulk will knock him back sometimes, gaining time to fully recoup.

Now if this fight was in an indestructible closed 20ft by 20ft by 15ft(high) arena then Juggs wins this easily.

iceman24567
Juggs wins

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Estacado
Wait so Skaar can hurt WBH but Juggs cant? Skaar pretty much beat classic Juggernaut. And with physical blunt damage, Skaar didn't even knock out WWH with a 100,000,000,000,000 ton punch. WWH was already a match for Juggernaut when he wasn't even peaked with rage. War Hulk already punked him. Simply put, WBH pushes his sh1t in.

h1a8
Originally posted by Estacado
Wait so Skaar can hurt WBH but Juggs cant?

Add in Thing being able to at least draw blood and Herc being able to rock him momentarily then it far silly to assume Juggs can't hurt Hulk.

ankur29
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Skaar pretty much beat classic Juggernaut. And with physical blunt damage, Skaar didn't even knock out WWH with a 100,000,000,000,000 ton punch. WWH was already a match for Juggernaut when he wasn't even peaked with rage. War Hulk already punked him. Simply put, WBH pushes his sh1t in.

yup jugg would have to amp like crazy to get to wbh level

McNasty996
I call this eternal stalemate as stated before
Juggs can't hurt hulk and vice versa
In the end juggs will be getting tossed around but it still
won't hurt him and any damage done to hulk will heal
in moments

h1a8
Originally posted by McNasty996
I call this eternal stalemate as stated before
Juggs can't hurt hulk and vice versa
In the end juggs will be getting tossed around but it still
won't hurt him and any damage done to hulk will heal
in moments

Juggs can and will hurt the Hulk easily. The fact that Thing, Herc, and Sentry were able to do it proves it. The problem is that Hulk will HEAL. Juggs is not fast nor skilled enough to form a speedy combo to accumulate more damage than what is being healed (Unless Juggs is beating him on the ground). I see Hulk hitting him around gaining time to heal making this a stalemate.

Like I said, if this fight was in a closed small indestructible arena Juggs would win easily. A 10/10 easy.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Skaar pretty much beat classic Juggernaut. And with physical blunt damage,

I like how you said 'pretty much'. Couldn't commit to just plain unassisted 'beat' because it's not true.

Skaar never once hurt Juggernaut in that fight, he also got punked during said fight. His victory was nothing more than a BFR.

OneDumbG0
^ And WBH completely has no method for tossing/knocking Juggernaut into orbit that absolutely doesn't rhyme with "super-strength" ...

... no, wait. I did the rhyme wrong...

Point still stands.

Jonah Hex
hulk

Stoic
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Skaar pretty much beat classic Juggernaut. And with physical blunt damage, Skaar didn't even knock out WWH with a 100,000,000,000,000 ton punch. WWH was already a match for Juggernaut when he wasn't even peaked with rage. War Hulk already punked him. Simply put, WBH pushes his sh1t in.


Yep, well put, and logically sound.

Lord Paragon
This goes to Juggs

The same Juggs that in the WWH regained his full power and not only fought WWH to a stand still but took the fight to Hulk, something no one else up to that point in the series could do.

The same Juggs who strength swelled at one point to the level that he was punching through the dimensional fabric.

The same Juggs the Marvel writers have gone on record as saying,"In all practical purposes the Juggernaught is the strongest charcter in the Marvel Universe" I may have paraphased a bit

Rage.Of.Olympus
If it's the same Hulk from #611, I'm giving it to Cain personally. At least a full powered Cain, and not the modern day version.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Skaar pretty much beat classic Juggernaut. And with physical blunt damage, Skaar didn't even knock out WWH with a 100,000,000,000,000 ton punch. WWH was already a match for Juggernaut when he wasn't even peaked with rage. War Hulk already punked him. Simply put, WBH pushes his sh1t in. qft

i would have said it verbatim

psycho gundam
professor hulk

http://a.imageshack.us/img693/926/hulk40417.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img196/7035/hulk40418.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img194/4423/hulk40419.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img641/6435/hulk40420.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img835/6011/hulk40421.jpg

proffessor hulk just had to gett a little pissed and juggy's uterus got tied in a knot, current hulk.......no comment

Ladies_Man_666
I read that issue where Juggs fights WWH. Juggy only lost because he was BFR'd. He showed no visible signs of damage afterwards. And seeing as how he isn't getting bfr'd here, I doubt he'll get 'punked' this time.
Also, if it might be relevant, Juggernaut at one point broke Hulk's hold and pushed him back. That happened when Hulk was trying to crush his head. You'd have to have strength at least equivalent, or greater, than Hulk to do that.

And how did this Skaar character beat Juggernaut? Can you tell me when it happened?

Ladies_Man_666
Originally posted by psycho gundam
professor hulk

http://a.imageshack.us/img693/926/hulk40417.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img196/7035/hulk40418.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img194/4423/hulk40419.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img641/6435/hulk40420.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img835/6011/hulk40421.jpg

proffessor hulk just had to gett a little pissed and juggy's uterus got tied in a knot, current hulk.......no comment

Finally, another scan of Juggernaut getting KO'd.
But I still can't tell if Hulk can pull this off. I mean, in these scans I can't tell what caused them all to pass out. It could've been a one time thing only, but he certainly didn't beat them into unconsciousness.

psycho gundam
juggernaut aka the rocket man

http://a.imageshack.us/img338/8804/0926090118.jpg

http://a.imageshack.us/img200/9703/0926090119.jpg

Originally posted by Ladies_Man_666
Finally, another scan of Juggernaut getting KO'd.
But I still can't tell if Hulk can pull this off. I mean, in these scans I can't tell what caused them all to pass out. It could've been a one time thing only, but he certainly didn't beat them into unconsciousness. it was from psychic backlash from the hulk overcomming mentallo's control.

hulk hurt him though, at a far weaker level

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by psycho gundam
professor hulk

proffessor hulk just had to gett a little pissed and juggy's uterus got tied in a knot, current hulk.......no comment

Being able to knock down a surprised Juggernaut isn't beyond the capabilities of any incarnation. Yes, not beyond even Fixit.

Juggernaut was unharmed from what I can tell -looked like he might have been getting up in the next panel; ask Knowsbleed if the writer gave a comment on the scene- and was knocked out due to the backlash.

This does depend on Juggernaut's portrayal. If his shown as simply an above average elite Top Tier -durability wise- that can be hurt by characters like Thor, or Superman, then Hulk can most definitely win (At least if Cain doesn't have his force field on) My mockery of the World Breaker aside, I still like him, and gotta give credit where credit is due.

If it's the Juggernaut in his "I'm completely invulnerable" portrayals, then yea, he'd win in my opinion.

psycho gundam
let me guess, this conflicts with juggernaut's bouts with thor right?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by psycho gundam
let me guess, this conflicts with juggernaut's bouts with thor right?

How exactly?

Thor and Cain have had three fights.

In the first, Thor was severely weakened, and was beat down by Cain.

In the second fight, Thor stalemated Cain, removed his force field, and started knocking him around. Almost finished him off but the force field came back.

In the third fight, Cain was considered significantly amped -Jurgen's seemed to be out of touch with other writers in this regard from what I can tell- and Thor held his own. Cain definitely had the edge in the end when he got him in a bear hug.

Galan007
Old school, savage Hulk made classic Juggy look like a weak feeb in their battle. Taking that into account, WBH could certainly do the same -- and in a much easier fashion, me thinks. However, the only thing that would prevent Hulk from tooling Juggy again is that pesky force-field. IF that is up, then Hulk's attacks would be ineffectual (as would Juggy's.)

So yeah, without a force-field Hulk dominates. With a force-field they stalemate.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Galan007
Old school, savage Hulk made classic Juggy look like a weak feeb in their battle. Taking that into account, WBH could certainly do the same -- and in a much easier fashion, me thinks. However, the only thing that would prevent Hulk from tooling Juggy again is that pesky force-field. IF that is up, then Hulk's attacks would be ineffectual (as would Juggy's.)

So yeah, without a force-field Hulk dominates. With a force-field they stalemate.

Seriously? Have you not read their first fight? Let me rephrase that, have you not read the only Savage Hulk versus Juggernaut fight? Juggs ended up dominating at the end. Then Hulk threw Cain where he got up fine, then Prof. X and co. laid the psychic smack down.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
Old school, savage Hulk made classic Juggy look like a weak feeb in their battle. Taking that into account, WBH could certainly do the same -- and in a much easier fashion, me thinks. However, the only thing that would prevent Hulk from tooling Juggy again is that pesky force-field. IF that is up, then Hulk's attacks would be ineffectual (as would Juggy's.)

So yeah, without a force-field Hulk dominates. With a force-field they stalemate.

What? When?

I'm pretty sure it was the exact opposite. With Juggernaut dominating the Savage Hulk, and even pointing out that he has some sort of dynamic factor to his strength. Never seen a character do that to the Hulk before actually.

Cain was about to snap his neck, but Hulk was able to grab his helmet by the eye holes, and spun him around until it broke off it's hinges.

Naija boy
wbh dominates

Galan007
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What? When?

I'm pretty sure it was the exact opposite. With Juggernaut dominating the Savage Hulk, and even pointing out that he has some sort of dynamic factor to his strength. Never seen a character do that to the Hulk before actually.

Cain was about to snap his neck, but Hulk was able to grab his helmet by the eye holes, and spun him around until it broke off it's hinges. Juggy was winning.... Until Hulk got angry.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Galan007
Juggy was winning.... Until Hulk got angry.

So, you think Hulk throwing a 900lb man is some kind of dynamic/overpowering strength feat? Cause I'm pretty sure Cain was unharmed and still able to fight.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
Juggy was winning.... Until Hulk got angry.

erm

What Ptr said. And Hulk was angry/agitated even before that.

Still don't know how you could have read that fight and come to the conclusion Hulk made Juggernaut look weak. If spinning some around means their somehow superior, then Thor grabbing Hercules by the ankles and twirling him around with one arm is a hell of a feat.

Galan007
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
So, you think Hulk throwing a 900lb man is some kind of dynamic/overpowering strength feat? Cause I'm pretty sure Cain was unharmed and still able to fight. Hulk got pissed, grabbed Juggy by the helmet, spun him around like a walking stick, threw him into a mountain, then left.

Imo, it was made clear in that issue that Juggy had the slight edge until Hulk got angry. Then Hulk had the edge.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
erm

What Ptr said. And Hulk was angry/agitated even before that.

Still don't know how you could have read that fight and come to the conclusion Hulk made Juggernaut look like weak. If spinning some around means their superior in strength, then Thor grabbing Hercules by the ankles and twirling him around with one arm is a hell of a feat. I love how you always manage to bring in some thor wankage...even when he has absolutely no relation to a thread. truly an amazing gift. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Galan007
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
erm

Hulk was angry and agitated even before that.

Still don't know how you could have read that fight and come to the conclusion Hulk made Juggernaut look like weak. If spinning some around means their superior in strength, then Thor grabbing Hercules by the ankles and twirling him around with one arm is a hell of a feat. -Hulk-
"Hulk is really tired of you now, Juggernaut" - said as he was spinning Juggy.

...And I didn't mean weak in the literal sense, I meant in comparison he looked pathetic.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Galan007
Hulk got pissed, grabbed Juggy by the helmet, spun him around like a walking stick, threw him into a mountain, then left.

Imo, it was made clear in that issue that Juggy had the slight edge until Hulk got angry. Then Hulk had the edge.

Spider-Man could "surprise-web" Hulk, twirl him around and throw him some distance. Does that mean Spider-Man make Hulk look weak?

Galan007
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Spider-Man could "surprise-web" Hulk, twirl him around and throw him some distance. Does that mean Spider-Man make Hulk look weak? Hulk "surprised" Juggy with that attack? You can't be serious.

Hulk was on the ground face down, with Juggy literally sitting on him in the dominate position. Hell, just to overcome the position Hulk was in (let alone treat Juggy as casually as he did) would require an overpowering, of sorts.

Like I said, Juggy seemed to have the edge before Hulk got mad. But when Hulk got mad, he had the edge.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Spider-Man could "surprise-web" Hulk, twirl him around and throw him some distance. spiderman cannot twirl hulk around him

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Galan007
Hulk "surprised" Juggy with that attack? You can't be serious.

Hulk was on the ground face down, with Juggy literally sitting on him in the dominate position. Hell, just to overcome the position Hulk was in (let alone treat Juggy as casually as he did) would require an overpowering, of sorts.

Like I said, Juggy seemed to have the edge before Hulk got mad. But when Hulk got mad, he had the edge.

Juggs certainly wasn't expecting it. So what else could it be?

That doesn't mean he had an edge. For one, Juggs has a force-field he could have activated to prevent Hulk from grabbing his helmet. Two, Juggs literally was completely unharmed. Bruce Lee could overthrow someone twice his size and weight.

Originally posted by Starscream M
spiderman cannot twirl hulk around him

Spidey is a class 20 isn't he? Hulk's weight shouldn't be too much for him to twirl around.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Hulk's not that heavy. Spidey could do it.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Hulk-
"Hulk is really tired of you now, Juggernaut" - said as he was spinning Juggy.

...And I didn't mean weak in the literal sense, I meant in comparison he looked pathetic.

And that proves what exactly? Hulk claiming his pissed off while his twirling the Juggernaut doesn't magically mean the Hulk was outperforming Juggernaut in any actual physical category. He doesn't even have to be as strong as Juggernaut to accomplish what he did.

In what way exactly as that's how I took it.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Starscream M
I love how you always manage to bring in some thor wankage...even when he has absolutely no relation to a thread. truly an amazing gift. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I was using Thor as an example. Do you know why I usually use Thor examples? Because I'm familiar with Thor more than most other characters.

You need to stop replying to my posts. I'm tired of your idiocy. Don't address me unless I gave you permission or address you first.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin

Spidey is a class 20 isn't he? Hulk's weight shouldn't be too much for him to twirl around. its not about hulk's weight...hulk is simply too strong for spiderman to budge...hulk would hold his ground no matter what parker did

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

You need to stop replying to my posts. I'm tired of your idiocy. Don't address me unless I gave you permission or address you first. laughing out loud

yeah ok. Im really gonna honor that request....no, how bout I address your idiocy whenever I damn well feel like it! cool

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Starscream M
its not about hulk's weight...hulk is simply too strong for spiderman to budge...hulk would hold his ground no matter what parker did

Spider-Man has knocked Hulk off his feet before. It isn't impossible for Spidey to jerk Hulk off his feet if he is not braced. Notice I said, "surprise-web".

Besides, did you know Spider-Man has actually KO'd Savage Hulk? And this was in this decade.

Galan007
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Juggs certainly wasn't expecting it. So what else could it be?

That doesn't mean he had an edge. For one, Juggs has a force-field he could have activated to prevent Hulk from grabbing his helmet.

Juggs literally was completely unharmed. Okay, so let me get this straight... Even though Hulk was face down on the ground with Juggy sitting on top of him, Hulk was only able to overwhelm Juggy with a "surprise" helmet grab? From that position? Wow, he must be faster than I thought.

I understand Juggy has a force-field, but he obviously wasn't using it in that particular battle. For my opinion on the outcome of Juggy /w/ FF up vs. Hulk battle, see my first post on the previous page.

Hulk was completely unharmed as well. What's your point?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And that proves what exactly? It proves that when Hulk got angry he was able to break the position of dominance Juggy was in, and treat him in a casual manner.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Haha when? Are you talking about the Captain America scene Ptr?

Yea, it's not beyond Spider-Man to twirl Hulk. At least if his not expecting it. If the Hulk braces for it, I don't see him doing it, but lesser force has knocked the Hulk back.

Originally posted by Starscream M
laughing out loud

yeah ok. Im really gonna honor that request....no, how bout I address your idiocy whenever I damn well feel like it! cool

Request? That was an order fool.

Keep this up and I'll ban you.

And lulz at "my idiocy".

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
It proves that when Hulk got angry he was able to break the position of dominance Juggy was in, and treat him in a casual manner.

He grabbed him by his helmet. Cain weights a few tons tops. Lifting that with his finger tips is easily within the Hulk's capabilities. He didn't actually do anything anyone with sufficient will power and strength -even below that of Cain's- isn't capable off.

Again. Spinning someone doesn't actually prove or mean anything.

I don't understand why your trying to pass that scene off as Hulk proving his superior to Cain.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Galan007
Okay, so let me get this straight... Even though Hulk was face down on the ground with Juggy sitting on top of him, Hulk was only able to overwhelm Juggy with a "surprise" helmet grab? From that position? Wow, he must be faster than I thought.

Hulk was completely unharmed as well. What's your point?

Hulk didn't overwhelm him. And Hulk is known to be fast, so he could easily grab Juggs when Cain thought he was down, and throw him.

Hulk was hurt, maybe his healing factor kicked in, but Juggs was definitely beating the crap out of him.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Haha when? Are you talking about the Captain America scene Ptr?

Cement Truck FTW!!!

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m179/Ptr_Grifin/spideyvshulk70ax.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m179/Ptr_Grifin/spideyvshulk86ye.jpg

Galan007
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't understand why your trying to pass that scene off as Hulk proving his superior to Cain. If Juggy would have still been stronger than Hulk in that scene, then Hulk would have never been able to break the position of dominance Juggy was in (again, Hulk was face down on the ground with Juggy sitting on top of him clutching his neck.) And he certainly wouldn't have been able to go on to twirl Juggy around in a casual manner, without Juggy preventing it.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Hulk was hurt, maybe his healing factor kicked in, but Juggs was definitely beating the crap out of him. Before Hulk got angry. Yes, I already agreed with that.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Galan007
Don't know why you are. If Juggy would have still been stronger than Hulk in that scene, then Hulk would have never been able to break the position of dominance Juggy was in (again, Hulk was face down on the ground with Juggy sitting on top of him.) And he certainly wouldn't have been able to go on to twirl Juggy around in a casual manner, without Juggy preventing it.


As far as leverage goes, Hulk had more of it. He had his legs and one arm planted on the ground. Juggernaut had 1 foot on the ground. All Hulk had to do was fight against the pain, and lift a 900lb man off the ground.

Galan007
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
As far as leverage goes, Hulk had more of it. He had his legs and one arm planted on the ground. Juggernaut had 1 foot on the ground. All Hulk had to do was fight against the pain, and lift a 900lb man off the ground. It's your excuse and you are entitled to it. wink

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
If Juggy would have still been stronger than Hulk in that scene, then Hulk would have never been able to break the position of dominance Juggy was in (again, Hulk was face down on the ground with Juggy sitting on top of him clutching his neck.) And he certainly wouldn't have been able to go on to twirl Juggy around in a casual manner, without Juggy preventing it.

What Ptr said.

Juggernaut seemed to have a knee on Hulk's back and was grabbing his head from behind. Hulk was not face down and had one arm planted on the ground from what I recall.

He withstood the pain -Hulk was incredibly durable back then as well- and reached back over his head to grab Juggernaut.

Try picturing being in that position. Now imagine if you had the strength to lift your attacker with your finger tips. Breaking out of that position if you were durable enough wouldn't be that difficult.

Once again with the twirling. Once Hulk had Cain in the air, it was done. He didn't overpower Cain in anyway in that moment.

And as I recall, Cain didn't resist the Hulk's actions at all. Or at least didn't look it. Probably surprised or something.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Galan007
If Juggy would have still been stronger than Hulk in that scene, then Hulk would have never been able to break the position of dominance Juggy was in (again, Hulk was face down on the ground with Juggy sitting on top of him clutching his neck.) And he certainly wouldn't have been able to go on to twirl Juggy around in a casual manner, without Juggy preventing it.

Before Hulk got angry. Yes, I already agreed with that.

100% correct.
Moreover u guys are pretending that juggernaut is dead weight and wasnt exerting force on hulk already in addition to the resistance he would put up when hulk tried (and succcedded) to lift him. And to even describe this whole; he surprised him argument as farfetched would be a grave understatement.

Ptr_Grifin
The best course of action in that situation would be to try and throw your opponent over your shoulder. This would be no problem for Hulk, or Juggernaut if their situations were reversed. Juggernaut is not the Blob. So lifting him off the ground while stationary with very little leverage is not a huge feat as far as comics go.

Rage.Of.Olympus
We saw Cain on top of the Hulk. In the next immediate panel, we see Hulk lifting Cain as if he is dead weight. His arms weren't even flailing as I recall. He was rigid like a statue stuck in a pose. And yes, I know comics aren't moving picture books.

Galan007
Originally posted by Naija boy
100% correct.
Moreover u guys are pretending that juggernaut is dead weight and wasnt exerting force on hulk already in addition to the resistance he would put up when hulk tried (and succcedded) to lift him. And to even describe this whole; he surprised him argument as farfetched would be a grave understatement. thumb up

Rage.Of.Olympus
thumb down

uhuh

john allerdyce
yeah after reading the issue for myself i gotta say that i agree with naija and galan. juggernaut def. had the upper hand when the fight first started but when hulk got angry HE def. had the upper hand. i thought it was pretty clear tbh.

Starscream M
Originally posted by john allerdyce
i gotta say that i agree with naija and galan and Starscream M

fixed

john allerdyce
as long as you agree with us then i agree with you stick out tongue

CosmicComet
How the hell could Hulk have had the 'upper hand' if all he did was harmlessly throw a guy who weighs a mere 900 lbs, do no damage, and then walk off confused and still worn out while Juggernaut was up and about to blindside him?

Was Juggernaut the least bit impressed or surprised by Hulk throwing him? No. Shouldn't he have been surprised/embarrassed/shocked etc if it was such an amazing strength feat, after declaring himself stronger than hulk throughout that fight?

That was nothing. Juggernaut still had the advantage, and always will outside of enhancements.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by john allerdyce
yeah after reading the issue for myself i gotta say that i agree with naija and galan. juggernaut def. had the upper hand when the fight first started but when hulk got angry HE def. had the upper hand. i thought it was pretty clear tbh.

I simply don't view spinning someone as a sign of superiority. Guess I'll admit to being wrong. At least until someone gives a different opinion.

srug

Well, at least I can brag about Thor spinning Hercules now.

Happy Dance

Edit: Aaaand I take it back.

Galan007
Originally posted by CosmicComet
How the hell could Hulk have had the 'upper hand' if all he did was harmlessly throw a guy who weighs a mere 900 lbs, do no damage, and then walk off confused and still worn out while Juggernaut was up and about to blindside him? Hulk didn't have the advantage because he dealt out some extreme degree of damage. He had the advantage for other reasons that I've mentioned a few times now, and don't care to again.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I simply don't view spinning someone as a sign of superiority. spinning someone with super strength is pretty impress

its not as easy as you think

go to any of your friend who is strong and try spinning and throwing him...you'll realize its not easy

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Starscream M
spinning someone with super strength is pretty impress

its not as easy as you think

go to any of your friend who is strong and try spinning and throwing him...you'll realize its not easy


...... confused

Bentley
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Hulk is the strongest one there is


Glad we agree.









biscuits

CosmicComet
No.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/biscuits.gif

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Starscream M
spinning someone with super strength is pretty impress

its not as easy as you think

go to any of your friend who is strong and try spinning and throwing him...you'll realize its not easy

............

You can't really be this stupid can you?

CosmicComet
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's trolling us.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
............

You can't really be this stupid can you? wai...WHAT?! eek! why am I stupid now?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Starscream M
wai...WHAT?! eek! why am I stupid now?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Motifake/BloodyFrustration.gif

Read your post. Read what you just asked me to do. Read the analogy you just tried to make.

zopzop
If we're discussing pure strength vs strength then I think it's in Jugz's favor.

There was a scan of an article by one of Marvel's guys basically saying Jugz can increase his strength by drawing on more power from his Patron when he needs too. I think it was in the Respect Juggernaut thread.

That + Invulnerability wins it IMHO. He don't need to eat, breathe, or sleep. He'll never get tired. Imagine if he takes the fight underground or underwater where oxygen is scarce. Then what's the Hulk going to do? Make himself so angry he don't need to breathe? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Or worse, imagine they wind up actually destroying the planet they were fighting on. Now the Hulk is REALLY screwed.

janus77
WBH decimates Juggernaut.

WBH is more than capable of doing so, given that WWH was casually halting Juggernaut's "unstoppable" momentum, building it up and making him incapable of self-control... all while holding back and being more interested in grabbing Xavier.

janus77
Originally posted by zopzop
If we're discussing pure strength vs strength then I think it's in Jugz's favor.

There was a scan of an article by one of Marvel's guys basically saying Jugz can increase his strength by drawing on more power from his Patron when he needs too. I think it was in the Respect Juggernaut thread.

That + Invulnerability wins it IMHO. He don't need to eat, breathe, or sleep. He'll never get tired. Imagine if he takes the fight underground or underwater where oxygen is scarce. Then what's the Hulk going to do? Make himself so angry he don't need to breathe? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Or worse, imagine they wind up actually destroying the planet they were fighting on. Now the Hulk is REALLY screwed.
lol, Cyttorak is nothing much, Beyonder said Hulk possessed the same infinite energies that he does, so that basically shits on the Cyttorak hype.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by janus77
WBH decimates Juggernaut.

WBH is more than capable of doing so, given that WWH was casually halting Juggernaut's "unstoppable" momentum, building it up and making him incapable of self-control... all while holding back and being more interested in grabbing Xavier.

Lol that's as inaccurate a retelling I've ever read.

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
That + Invulnerability wins it IMHO. He don't need to eat, breathe, or sleep. He'll never get tired. Imagine if he takes the fight underground or underwater where oxygen is scarce. Then what's the Hulk going to do? Make himself so angry he don't need to breathe? roll eyes (sarcastic). Yeah, if the battle took place in an oxygen deficient or oxygen devoid environment, Hulk would totally be screwed!:

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/729/scan0038.th.jpg http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3936/0405.th.jpg

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5628/50795059.th.jpg http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6136/85283806.th.jpg


none

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, if the battle took place in an oxygen deficient or oxygen devoid environment, Hulk would totally be screwed!:

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/729/scan0038.th.jpg http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3936/0405.th.jpg

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5628/50795059.th.jpg http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6136/85283806.th.jpg


none

Those scans prove what? The Black Bolt scenes were on the Blue Area of the Moon, known for having oxygen.

The other scenes with him punching asteroids while on a spaceship mean what exactly? Its well known the he can hold his breath for a long time.

Long time != forever. He's gonna have to take a breath soon, unless something changed (ie he got a power up or anything like that that I'm not aware of).

lol, Cyttorak is nothing much, Beyonder said Hulk possessed the same infinite energies that he does, so that basically shits on the Cyttorak hype.

The very same Beyonder that was later retconned (and so were most of his "feats"wink into an incomplete Cube Being? That one? Cause if so, I'm not impressed.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Pretty sure Green Scar can survive without oxygen. Never thought of it as Hulk simply holding his breath for a while. I recall him running around in space, screaming and shit. It'd be weird if he couldn't. Savage Hulk developed a gland to survive underwater as I recall.

Originally posted by janus77
lol, Cyttorak is nothing much, Beyonder said Hulk possessed the same infinite energies that he does, so that basically shits on the Cyttorak hype.

Does her really say that the Hulk has the same infinite energies that he does?

And if we're going by the Beyonder's comments,he made one not to different regarding Thor.

The words of Cosmic Entities in these type of situations are obviously hyperbole. They don't mean much. At least to me personally. However, using that statement to mock Cytorrak's power in comparison to the Hulk in any serious way is asinine.

h1a8
Have you guys lost your minds? Any talk or showings of Hulk hurting Juggs is PIS and is not allowed here. Juggs can't be hurt by physical force under Universal. I'm surprised this thread last this long. This is either a stalemate or Juggs wins.

And what is super silly is you guys claiming that slinging someone around proves you are superior or can hurt them. I can throw and hit around a 1 pound indestructible plastic doll. It doesn't mean I can win against it without BFR.

h1a8
Originally posted by janus77
lol, Cyttorak is nothing much, Beyonder said Hulk possessed the same infinite energies that he does, so that basically shits on the Cyttorak hype.

First you are spinning quotes. Second, Hulk doesn't and can't possess infinite energy. Hulk's strength can grow to any assignable amount and still won't be a fraction of infinite strength. He can gain a zillion tons per nanosecond for a zillion years and still won't have a fraction of infinite strength.

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
Those scans prove what? The Black Bolt scenes were on the Blue Area of the Moon, known for having oxygen.

The other scenes with him punching asteroids while on a spaceship mean what exactly? Its well known the he can hold his breath for a long time.

Long time != forever. He's gonna have to take a breath soon, unless something changed (ie he got a power up or anything like that that I'm not aware of). Oy vey. facepalm

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by zopzop
If we're discussing pure strength vs strength then I think it's in Jugz's favor. Juggernaut has never amped himself to the point where a footstep threatens to break a continent apart. So no. Originally posted by zopzop
Those scans prove what? The Black Bolt scenes were on the Blue Area of the Moon, known for having oxygen.

The other scenes with him punching asteroids while on a spaceship mean what exactly? Its well known the he can hold his breath for a long time.

Long time != forever. He's gonna have to take a breath soon, unless something changed (ie he got a power up or anything like that that I'm not aware of).It was specifically noted on-panel in the storyline right before Planet Hulk that he doesn't need to breathe in space. SHIELD notes that his body ended up adapting to the environment. In any case, well before that ever happened, Savage Hulk actually survived a trip past the Sun to Counter-Earth on top a space rocket while fighting Rhino. Rhino had a mask, Savage Hulk didn't. Originally posted by zopzop
The very same Beyonder that was later retconned (and so were most of his "feats"wink into an incomplete Cube Being? That one? Cause if so, I'm not impressed. That Beyonder and Bendis' Beyonder from the Illuminati issues would still sh1t on Juggernaut.

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Oy vey. facepalm

Instead of trying to be cute why don't you explain how I'm wrong. Those scans you posted are sort of ambiguous.

The Black Bolt (which was later retconned to be a Skrull impostor) and Hulk ones were on the Blue Area of the Moon, known for having oxygen. The very fact that they were able to SPEAK proves that some sort of atmosphere is there (sound can't travel in a vaccum).


The other ones were even more vague.

So I'll repeat, unless the Hulk has been upgraded recently and doesn't need to eat/breathe/sleep, he's gonna lose to Jugz eventually.

zopzop
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It was specifically noted on-panel in the storyline right before Planet Hulk that he doesn't need to breathe in space. SHIELD notes that his body ended up adapting to the environment. In any case, before that, Savage Hulk actually survived a trip past the Sun to Counter-Earth on top a space rocket while fighting Rhino.


So he doesn't need to breathe. Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.




That's great to know. But the fact remains that the Secret Wars era Beyonder was retconned and dramatically reduced in power. So his statements mean jack. And this is Hulk vs Jugz. We can argue about Incomplete Cube Beings vs Cytorrak Avatar later.

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
Those scans you posted are sort of ambiguous. Heh, were they now?

Stoic
Some writers portray the Hulk as having the ability to survive in oxygen depleted environments, some don't. In the seventies they had the Hulk grow gills to show that he would/could evolve to any given situation that he was placed in. In Hulk Future imperfect he was seen breathing acid enriched oxygen without his lungs turning to liquid.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by zopzop
We can argue about Incomplete Cube Beings vs Cytorrak Avatar later. There would be no argument. Even retconned Cube Being Beyonder created his own universe. And depending how Spiderman and the Secret Wars figures into all the retcons, all of Beyonder's retcons... were retconned back.

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, were they now?

I'm done with you, go troll someone else.

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
I'm done with you, go troll someone else. Okay.

ODG, can I troll you? Puhleeease!!!! embarrasment

zopzop
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
There would be no argument. Even retconned Cube Being Beyonder created his own universe.


A "pocket universe" that Kubik was about to crush with the Beyonder and the FF in it till Shaper of Worlds stepped in. Again, not impressed. Cytorrak has his own pocket dimension too.



It's ok, I'm sure it'll be retconned again, if it already hasn't been.

Parmaniac
zopzop
Date Registered: Aug 23rd, 2005
Total Posts: 35

For some reason that amused me

CosmicComet
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
There would be no argument. Even retconned Cube Being Beyonder created his own universe. And depending how Spiderman and the Secret Wars figures into all the retcons, all of Beyonder's retcons... were retconned back.

And obviously, Hulk isn't on that level no matter what bullshit Beyonder might be spewing.

Anger is not infinite. Hulk is not infinite.

Galan007
Originally posted by CosmicComet
And obviously, Hulk isn't on that level no matter what bullshit Beyonder might be spewing.

Anger is not infinite. Hulk is not infinite. Beyonder more or less noted that Hulk has an infinite well of power to draw from -- which is likely true (I'm still waiting for Marvel to introduce a 'Strength-Force' concept.) That, however, doesn't mean he can actually utilize the entirety of said energies.

Firestorm has much the same problem. He has an infinite power source to draw from, but he has to consciously pick and choose how much power he uses at any given time. Otherwise he could keep becoming increasingly more powerful until he burnt himself out (for lack of better words.)

Ladies_Man_666
I see there's some conflict as to the interpretation of that bout, so I'll share my views on what I thought when I read that comic (which was a long time before I made this topic).
Juggernaut nearly had the Hulk beat, and I think he could have even killed him if he had broken his neck. Unfortunately, Hulk came to his wits, really pissed, and had a sudden strength advantage over Juggernaut. He tossed him in the mountain, thought the fight was over, left etc. But I think the writers made it clear that the fight wasn't over. That hardly harmed Juggernaut, and he was coming for more. I think he even taunted him.
As to what spinning the opponent and tossing him means, I don't know about the Silver Age, but if a character does that to someone in a contemporary comic, it'd be pretty embarrassing. While it's not that great a strength feat, a brute like the Juggernaut should be able to prevent someone doing that to him. One could argue (or in this case, has) that he caught Juggy by surprise. Could it be true? IMO, Yes. Could it not be true? Equally likely. I doubt we can know this for sure.

So long story short, nobody won that fight, although Juggernaut did come very close to victory whereas the same can't be said about the Hulk. He was never actually winning. He connected a major combo, but it's useless if it doesn't hurt the Juggernaut. It's a stalemate at best, and even that's only because Xavier stopped that fight.

That's what I made out of that fight.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Motifake/BloodyFrustration.gif

Read your post. Read what you just asked me to do. Read the analogy you just tried to make.
LOL



There are two:
http://img808.imageshack.us/i/juggyhulk.jpg/
http://img833.imageshack.us/i/greenmailpotentialthein.jpg/


But being able to draw "limitless power" from Cyttorak himself should allow him to at least match The Hulk.

Lastly, I'd like to say that I was pissed at Marvel opting for a "Hulk vs Wolverine" short instead of a "Hulk vs Juggernaut" one. That would have been an excellent fight to watch. They only used Wolverine to sell more copies (which is kinda like a company's primary aim sad )

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by CosmicComet
And obviously, Hulk isn't on that level no matter what bullshit Beyonder might be spewing.

Anger is not infinite. Hulk is not infinite. I understand that Beyonder's statement isn't to be taken literally. But his statement carries as much weight as statements made about Juggernaut.

And when you consider all things equally, you have to face the facts that WBH's topped Juggernaut in the strength department and Savage Hulk's already performed infinite feats of strength. /shrug Originally posted by Ladies_Man_666
But being able to draw "limitless power" from Cyttorak himself should allow him to at least match The Hulk. Theoretically. But it's more likely Juggernaut gets BFRed or KTFO before that happens. Few amp faster than Hulk does.

zopzop
Beyonder more or less noted that Hulk has an infinite well of power to draw from -- which is likely true


Didn't the Beyonder also say that Rachel Summers Phoenix was second only to him in power?! The Pre Retconned Re Retconned De retconned (I can't keep up) Beyonder said and did a lot of things that turned out not to be true.

Or were true, but now untrue, but may some day turn out again to be true, unless proven half true.

Galan007
Originally posted by Ladies_Man_666
So long story short, nobody won that fight, although Juggernaut did come very close to victory whereas the same can't be said about the Hulk. He was never actually winning. He connected a major combo, but it's useless if it doesn't hurt the Juggernaut. It's a stalemate at best, and even that's only because Xavier stopped that fight. What Juggy did to Hulk, or how close he may have come to winning before Hulk got angry is moot.

And I don't know about you, but imo if old school savage Hulk was capable of overpowering Juggy and treating him in an extremely casual manner, then WBH would have a very easy time doing the same (sans force-fields, of course.)

Ladies_Man_666
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Theoretically. But it's more likely Juggernaut gets BFRed or KTFO before that happens. Few amp faster than Hulk does.
BFR is not allowed in this fight. As for knocking Juggy out, honestly I haven't seen anyone beat the Juggernaut unconscious. Can you please explain how Hulk would be able to KO him?

OneDumbG0
^ Then Juggs gets KTFO or put into an inescapable hold.

Bishop knocked Juggernaut unconscious after Onslaught sent him flying from Canada. Nimrod knocked him unconscious with sonic attacks to his eardrums. It's been done. Juggernaut's "invincibility" is about as potent as his "unstoppability." And both have been compromised. WBH would compromise both something fierce.

CosmicComet
He won't be able to KO him.

A punch is going to knock him out but being stripped down to mere bones does nothing? Right.

Galan007
Originally posted by Ladies_Man_666
BFR is not allowed in this fight. As for knocking Juggy out, honestly I haven't seen anyone beat the Juggernaut unconscious. Can you please explain how Hulk would be able to KO him? Captain Universe and Skaar. shifty

...Thor also beat the crap out of him, after negating his FF.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by CosmicComet
He won't be able to KO him.

A punch is going to knock him out but being stripped down to mere bones does nothing? Right. You're talking about Professor Hulk? Because that basically happened to him. You'll have to be more specific and use less pronouns...

... and then realize that this is World Breaker Hulk.

Ladies_Man_666
Originally posted by Galan007
What Juggy did to Hulk, or how close he may have come to winning before Hulk got angry is moot.
Is it? I mean, let's say they were to keep on fighting, wouldn't it be possible for Juggernaut to land some textbook shots, wouldn't he once again have him in a position where he could kill him? Whereas -apparently- it's impossible for the Hulk to do the same?
Or are you of the opinion that Hulk would completely no sell his attacks? In which case, I'd like you to give me some supporting evidence.

Galan007
Originally posted by Ladies_Man_666
Is it? I mean, let's say they were to keep on fighting, wouldn't it be possible for Juggernaut to land some textbook shots, wouldn't he once again have him in a position where he could kill him? Whereas -apparently- it's impossible for the Hulk to do the same?
Or are you of the opinion that Hulk would completely no sell his attacks? In which case, I'd like you to give me some supporting evidence. The issue itself was quite clear that Juggy only had the advantage until Hulk became angry. When Hulk became angered he was able to: a.) break the position of dominance Juggy had over him, and b.) grab Juggy by the helmet and casually whip him around like the Planters peanut mascot twirls his cane. If Juggy would have still had the strength edge during that scene, then Hulk wouldn't have been able to preform either of those tasks.

Furthermore, WBH is far, FAR superior to savage Hulk. Thus one could easily surmise that WBH would also be far, FAR superior to classic Juggy by proxy.

OneDumbG0
^ DurHulk approves. durhulk

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
The issue itself was quite clear that Juggy only had the advantage until Hulk became angry. When Hulk became angered he was able to: a.) break the position of dominance Juggy had over him, and b.) grab Juggy by the helmet and casually whip him around like the Planters peanut mascot twirls his cane. If Juggy would have still had the strength edge during that scene, then Hulk wouldn't have been able to preform either of those tasks.

Furthermore, WBH is far, FAR superior to savage Hulk. Thus one could easily surmise that WBH would also be far, FAR superior to classic Juggy by proxy.

So what primary emotion was running through Hulk before that scene in your opinion?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/IH%20172/TheIncredibleHulkv2-172-16.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/IH%20172/TheIncredibleHulkv2-172-17.jpg

What was he feeling at that moment, if not anger? Happiness perhaps?

The scene where Hulk grabs Cain clearly meant to indicate that the Hulk was growing stronger -even said as much- I however don't think he'd necessarily have to be stronger than Cain to accomplish what he did.

Once more, twirling an opponent mea.....f*ck it.

Ladies_Man_666
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Then Juggs gets KTFO or put into an inescapable hold.

Bishop knocked Juggernaut unconscious after Onslaught sent him flying from Canada. Nimrod knocked him unconscious with sonic attacks to his eardrums. It's been done. Juggernaut's "invincibility" is about as potent as his "unstoppability." And both have been compromised. WBH would compromise both something fierce.
So can't Juggernaut break the hold? He did break his skull-crushing hold in WWH, and since his strength is also variable, he should be able to push him aside.

Wasn't is specifically stated in Bishop's case that normally an attack like that wouldn't even budge The Juggernaut? I recall something along those lines. And I don't recall him getting knocked out. He was simply incapacitated. Also, shouldn't an electric shock work differently than a punch?

I'm not aware of the other incident. Can you tell me the issue when this happened?


Did they beat him into unconsciousness or did they throw him in a sea or something?


But it also made it very clear that Juggernaut was barely harmed by his attacks. Furthermore, his strength is also subject to change, and he draws his power from one of the most physically powerful entities in the Marvel Universe. This should even the odds.
I agree that Hulk overpowered Juggernaut in that scene, but let's consider what I've just said and extrapolate that fight. In order for Hulk to win the match, he would need to keep doing that to Juggernaut every single time and knock him out (which I don't know yet if is possible), while if Juggernaut once manages some clear shots, the fight is more or less over.


"Superior" would be a very broad term. If you mean 'stronger', then I think that would be true if Juggy's strength was a constant. It's not AFAIK.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Ladies_Man_666
So can't Juggernaut break the hold? He did break his skull-crushing hold in WWH, and since his strength is also variable, he should be able to push him aside.

Wasn't is specifically stated in Bishop's case that normally an attack like that wouldn't even budge The Juggernaut? I recall something along those lines. And I don't recall him getting knocked out. He was simply incapacitated. Also, shouldn't an electric shock work differently than a punch? No. That skull-crushing hold is far from an inescapable hold. I'm talking about a hammerlock for instance. WBH's strength is also variable. And far more higher-end at both beginning and at peak levels (at least the peak ones we've seen so far) than we've seen Juggernaut manage.

I remember when Xavier noted that Bishop couldn't take Juggernaut down at the peak of his power after Juggernaut woke up. And Juggernaut was KTFO. Bishop absorbs all types of energy and usually converts it into concussive blasts. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So what primary emotion was running through Hulk before that scene in your opinion?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/IH%20172/TheIncredibleHulkv2-172-16.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/IH%20172/TheIncredibleHulkv2-172-17.jpg

What was he feeling at that moment, if not anger? Happiness perhaps?Frustration, probably. Curiousity when he was wondering where Juggernaut was. Not rage.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Lulz.

Ladies_Man_666
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. That skull-crushing hold is far from an inescapable hold. I'm talking about a hammerlock for instance. WBH's strength is also variable. And far more higher-end at both beginning and at peak levels (at least the peak ones we've seen so far) than we've seen Juggernaut manage.
Oh. In that case, I do believe that's a possibility.
@ Italic: Is it really? I do know that Hulk's strength is variable, but that's only because his anger levels change, and since WBH is the angriest possible Hulk, shouldn't there be a limit to his strength? Or is it the angriest Hulk we have seen?


Xavier? Wasn't it some other guy? I distinctly remember Juggernaut getting freaked out first, then after the shock he was on his knees mumbling something. Maybe he got KO'd afterwards, I dunno. But nevertheless, that was a very weakened Juggernaut. He was damn near clinically dead for a few minutes just before that happened.

EDIT: Okay, I checked Uncanny X-Men 322. It was Beast who noted that, and Juggy wasn't out. He just fell down to his knees.

Galan007
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Frustration, probably. Curiousity when he was wondering where Juggernaut was. Not rage. Aye. We saw what happened when Hulk actually got angry.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Another lulz.

When Hulk was screaming he was tired of Cain, I'm sure that was intended to be frustration and not anger. Yeppers.

CosmicComet
Hulk not angry = about to be killed by Juggernaut with relative ease.

Hulk angry = suddenly the tables are turned?


lolz.

Juggernaut had the upper hand as he always had. Juggernaut was not impressed by Hulk's outburst in the least. (ratherhe was shocked that Hulk was stupid enough to think he accomplished anything and once again reiterated that he's unstoppable before ****ing xavier and crew showed up)

Nor should any of you. It's not an impressive strength feat at all. His arm was not restrained so nothing was keeping him from grabbing Jugg's helmet, two, again he spun around 900 lbs while angry and catching Juggernaut off guard who's hands were busy trying to break Hulk's neck. Big deal.

Seeing as Juggernaut at classic levels was still superior to WWH, it should be obvious that his power level is high as he wants it to be. Not to mention a couple of editorial statements that corrobarate this.

What is WBH going to do? Knock Juggernaut out? Lol. I suppose his punch would simply erase him from existence? That's what it would have to do top Juggernaut being turned into a skeleton and still being completely functional.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Hulk not angry = about to be killed by Juggernaut with relative ease.

Hulk angry = suddenly the tables are turned?

That part, isn't right.

Madder=Stronger, dynamic strength, and all that.

janus77
when he actually lists off the things he's tired of, it does seem like frustration is the most reasonable description. nothing more than, "give it a break".


anyway, it's interesting how people speculate that Juggernaut is as strong as Savage Hulk, when Juggernaut has no feats that even come remotely close to supporting such hype. yet whenever high-end Hulk feats are presented, they are down played or quibbled over without respite. seems to be classic double-standards.

btw, didn't "classic" Juggernaut get buried under a mountain for ages and get halted by cement?

wasn't it also "classic" Juggernaut who got beaten silly by WarHulk and KTFO'd by Onslaught?

seems to me that this is merely a proxy battle for the dignity of Thor, given that not even the blindest rabid fanboy could argue that Juggernaut constantly humbles and embarrasses Thor, it's somehow crucial to raise up Juggernaut's stock such that Hulk doesn't look quite so glaringly superior when comparing performances against Juggernaut..

KMC definitely has a devout Church of Thor thing going on yes

CosmicComet
I know. Juggernaut is still has more strength to call upon as wanted. Cytorrak said as much.

janus77
Beyonder trumps Cyttorak smile

anyway, some feats of strength on the part of Juggernaut might help to reduce the feeling that this is all proxy-play.

CosmicComet
And hulk is less than an insect to Beyonder. What's your point?

Juggernaut did not in fact get halted by cement. He sunk to the bottom and then tunneled his way through and out

WBH does not have Celestial tech like Warhulk does. No he didn't get KO'd by onslaught At least not that they showed. Off panel. Mindrape most likely.

janus77
Originally posted by CosmicComet
And hulk is less than an insect to Beyonder. What's your point?

Juggernaut did not in fact get halted by cement. He sunk to the bottom and then tunneled his way through and out

WBH does not have Celestial tech like Warhulk does. No he didn't get KO'd by Cytorrak. At least not that they showed. Off panel. Mindrape most likely.
Ko'd by Cyttorak? confused

well, whatever, you're a bit mangled on the logic and cogency front there.

how did Juggernaut perform against the mountain? if I'm not mistaken Hulk likes to brace mountain ranges and toss about mountains for fun...


anyway, anything by way of proof of Juggernaut's strength? say something that would be around Thor-levels? I really don't recall him doing much that Thing or Colossus would have trouble doing...

CosmicComet
I edited the typo before your post.

I believe the mountain thing for Juggs was retconned, not sure. As for Hulk. He braced a portion of a mountain while angry. Obviously he's not supporting the weight of an entire mountain on his back because it extends farther than a few cubic feet...I don't know why people bring that feat up constantly because its not particularly impressive as far as high tiers go.

Thor throwing the serpent, bigger than continents, let alone a mountain range, is a far greater feat.

Actually both Hulk and Thor have a more vast array of strength feats than Juggernaut. Strangely they never seem to look stronger in direct confrontations with him despite that. Wonder why... /sarcasm

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by janus77
when he actually lists off the things he's tired of, it does seem like frustration is the most reasonable description. nothing more than, "give it a break".

Lulz.

Originally posted by janus77
anyway, it's interesting how people speculate that Juggernaut is as strong as Savage Hulk, when Juggernaut has no feats that even come remotely close to supporting such hype. yet whenever high-end Hulk feats are presented, they are down played or quibbled over without respite. seems to be classic double-standards.

btw, didn't "classic" Juggernaut get buried under a mountain for ages and get halted by cement?

wasn't it also "classic" Juggernaut who got beaten silly by WarHulk and KTFO'd by Onslaught?

seems to me that this is merely a proxy battle for the dignity of Thor, given that not even the blindest rabid fanboy could argue that Juggernaut constantly humbles and embarrasses Thor, it's somehow crucial to raise up Juggernaut's stock such that Hulk doesn't look quite so glaringly superior when comparing performances against Juggernaut..

KMC definitely has a devout Church of Thor thing going on yes

No one is purposefully trying to downplay Hulk here.

Not sure if his origin story has changed, but as far as I can tell, he was indeed buried under a mountain. He eventually dug himself out however. I wouldn't be too hung up on that however. This was early X-men era. He had to wait for it to dry as I recall. It was also revealed that he sunk down deep below ground, and had to punch his way out of bedrock etc.

He was stopped, and then tossed around with a cable. I think War knocked him down once again but that's about it as I recall. I'm not sure how the Onslaught think went. He pulled out the Gem from Cain's chest as I recall -not sure how that worked by the way- and then tossed him a long way. I think he was nearly knocked out. Not sure how applicable that would be to the Hulk.

You seem to be purposely trying to downplay Cain here. Do I get to try and do that to the Hulk?

Hey, remember when Captain America/Spider-Man knocked him out? Wasn't that fun? How about that cement truck? And, who could have guessed Hulk's one weakness was snakes? eek!

Lowballing. Double edged sword.

Hahaha. How about you go and actually read their fights?

I really like the church of Thor conspiracy theory.

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