JLA vs Avengers rematch

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darthgoober
I know that the rules for a normal forum match classify JLA/Avengers as non-cannon, but for the purposes of this thread we're going to assume that it IS cannon evidence for all parties. No one gets "basic knowledge" on the opposing team beyond what they ended JLA/Avengers with. Since I don't think these versions of Wonder Man and Aquaman were seen in the crossover, just assume that Grandmaster somehow gave them any memories their future versions aquired in the crossover.

Superman(current)
Green Lantern(Hal)
Flash(Wally)
Wonder Woman
Aquaman(Magic Water Hand)
Martian Manhunter
Firestorm

vs

Thor(classic)
Quasar
Monica Rambeau
Mantis(Celestial Madonna)
Mar-Vell
Pre Ionic Form Wonder Man(when he learned to grow, regenerate limbs, etc.)
Sersi


Everyone begins the match "Battle Ready" and fights in character(assume that only the winning team will be returned to their universe to help determine what will constitute "is character"wink. The battlefield is in a neutral universe(Speed Force works though) and looks identical to the one they fought on at the end of issue 2. Also note that this is a team battle, not 7 independant fights between logical counterparts.

Who takes it?

-Pr-
Aquaman would remember anyway. It was the same person. stick out tongue

Or he was an alternate universe one?

darthgoober
Originally posted by -Pr-
Aquaman would remember anyway. It was the same person. stick out tongue

Or he was an alternate universe one?
Was it? Damn I thought it was a version w/o the water hand.

Black bolt z
Team DC.Marvel has a few weak links.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Team DC.Marvel has a few weak links.
Which characters do you consider "weak links"?

-Pr-
Originally posted by darthgoober
Was it? Damn I thought it was a version w/o the water hand.

It was. but its the same guy.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by darthgoober
Which characters do you consider "weak links"? If any sersi.

Then I don't even know who monica is?

darthgoober
Originally posted by -Pr-
It was. but its the same guy.
I thought he lost the water hand before the crossover though?

TheTyrant
Originally posted by Black bolt z
If any sersi.

Then I don't even know who monica is?

Sersi isn't a weak link.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Sersi isn't a weak link. She is IMO.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Black bolt z
If any sersi.

Then I don't even know who monica is?
You think the chick that ko'd Hercules with a punch and is a top tier telepath and transmuter is a weak link confused ?

She's the black chick who turns into energy.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by darthgoober
You think the chick that ko'd Hercules with a punch and is a top tier telepath and transmuter is a weak link confused ?

She's the black chick who turns into energy. Slightly moreso compared to team DC.Only slightly but that can make the difference.

-Pr-
Originally posted by darthgoober
I thought he lost the water hand before the crossover though?

It was after the crossover iirc.

canon aquaman had lost the hook and gained the water hand.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Slightly moreso compared to team DC.Only slightly but that can make the difference.
Well ok, but I gotta disagree. TBO if I had to pick one Mid Herald to get bumped up to high, I'd probably pick Sersi. All she needs is one or two more uber unquantifiable feats to fit the bill IMO.

darthgoober
Originally posted by -Pr-
It was after the crossover iirc.

canon aquaman had lost the hook and gained the water hand.
Well then I guess the stip's only for Wonder Man.

kgkg
JLA

darthgoober
Originally posted by kgkg
JLA
Any reason in particular, or do you just see the JLA as being overall more powerful?

kgkg
Originally posted by darthgoober
Any reason in particular, or do you just see the JLA as being overall more powerful? More powerful and JLA will have better teamwork here.

Also they don't seem to have a real counter for Wally who will take out someone like Sersi and other less agile members off rather quickly.

Other than energy output JLA seem to be better at almost everything else.

Q99
I would say Sersi's more powerful/useful than Wonder Man, Mar-vell, or Mantis.

darthgoober
Originally posted by kgkg
More powerful and JLA will have better teamwork here.

Also they don't seem to have a real counter for Wally who will take out someone like Sersi and other less agile members off rather quickly.

Other than energy output JLA seem to be better at almost everything else.
I can definately see teamwork being a major edge for the JLA since the Avengers are missing Cap, but I don't really see them as being more powerful overall(but maybe that's just me).

I could see Mantis or Monica pulling their share of wins against Wally. I mean Mantis was dealing with charges from Quicksilver before her upgrade and Runner after her upgrade(and I know the Quicksilver thing doesn't mean much at this level, I was just demonstrating that the thing with the Runner wasn't necessarily a fluke), so I could definately see her putting Wally on his ass long enough to finish him off on a good day. And since Monica would start the fight flying in energy form(likely GL energy since she learned to use it in the crossover) I can picture her giving him fits too. Also remember that the combatants are Battle Ready, so the fliers will most likely start the fight in air.

D_Dude1210
Originally posted by kgkg
Also they don't seem to have a real counter for Wally who will take out someone like Sersi and other less agile members off rather quickly.

Mantis managed to take down the runner pre-Celestial Madonna upgrade. big grin

darthgoober
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Mantis managed to take down the runner pre-Celestial Madonna upgrade. big grin
That was post upgrade.

D_Dude1210
Originally posted by darthgoober
That was post upgrade.

Really? I remembered it to be pre-upgrade. sad

Don't wanna dig thru my ooooold comics tho.

darthgoober
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Really? I remembered it to be pre-upgrade. sad

Don't wanna dig thru my ooooold comics tho.
Nah she was upgraded before she went flying around with Surfer.

D_Dude1210
Originally posted by darthgoober
Nah she was upgraded before she went flying around with Surfer.

Aiyt then! smile

Well, she took down the runner. So she should be able to counter Wally's speed.

Stoic
Superman(current) vs Thor =
I agree with the writers, Superman would beat Thor, but it would be a longer battle than portrayed.

Green Lantern(Hal) vs Quasar =
This would be a battle of science vs magic, I have Quasar winning by a slight margin, because Quasar's energy constructs in all fairness should break Hals (Yellow vs Green). Plus Quasar has two hands and Hal only has one.

Flash(Wally) vs Monica =
Photon (Former Captain Marvel) has all of the power sets to defeat Wally, she can fly, and keep up with him in all ways, plus she can use energy blasts to defeat him. Flash can also tire, as he needs to consume loads of food to keep himself going, Monica has no such problem in her energy state. She wins.

Wonder Woman vs Mantis =
Good fight, and they should square off nicely, the only thing here is that Mantis is more skilled while Diana is far faster, and much stronger. Wonder Woman would win after a long drawn out battle.

Aquaman(Magic Water Hand) vs Mar-Vell =
I don't see this as much of a fight. Mar-Vell fries him. Not at all a fair match up IMHO.

Martian Manhunter vs Wonderman =
Simon just can't beat J'onn, I don't care which way you slice it J'onn wins.

Firestorm vs Sersi =
I have to give this one to Sersi, she can transmute matter with the best of them, but she also has some exotic powers that would take Firestorm by surprise. Sersi wins.

Marvel wins in my opinion, 4-3.

kgkg
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Aiyt then! smile

Well, she took down the runner. So she should be able to counter Wally's speed. I hope your joking here.... All she did was trip the Runner he later mentions that his cheerful nature allowed the Surfer to live... it's sports to them.... don't really see how she can stop Wally.

Stoic
Originally posted by kgkg
I hope your joking here.... All she did was trip the Runner he later mentions that his cheerful nature allowed the Surfer to live... it's sports to them.... don't really see how she can stop Wally.

Why would she be fighting Wally? Wouldn't that be a stupid match up? I mean just saying.

darthgoober
Originally posted by kgkg
I hope your joking here.... All she did was trip the Runner he later mentions that his cheerful nature allowed the Surfer to live... it's sports to them.... don't really see how she can stop Wally.
Yeah but if she can put Wally down via trip and nail him with a pressure point attack or mind blast before he regains his senses...

Not that I'm saying she will mind you, I'm just pointing out possibilities.

kgkg
Originally posted by Stoic
Why would she be fighting Wally? Wouldn't that be a stupid match up? I mean just saying. Wally can pretty much pick who he wants to take down.... Considering they have prior knowledge Wally will target less durable , slower characters.... Like Sersi , Mantis people on the ground etc

kgkg
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but if she can put Wally down via trip and nail him with a pressure point attack or mind blast before he regains his senses...

Not that I'm saying she will mind you, I'm just pointing out possibilities. Just because she tripped the Runner doesn't mean she can trip wally... does she have reaction speed to stop someone like Wally going at light speed+.... Knowing the runner he wasn't even trying at that point. I haven't seen anything from mantis that would say she can stop Wally


In V3 #7 the Runner think it's a joke that Surfer and Mantis can beat the Obliterator and they clearly indicate that Runner doesn't go all out in battles.... and Considering how easily Champion contained Mantis... I don't think she can last very long against Runner who man handled Surfer the issue prior to that.

Also there is Sersi who Wally can take down easy.

The Avengers don't have any speedsters to counter Wally.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Stoic
Quasar's energy constructs in all fairness should break Hals (Yellow vs Green)

Hal has no weakness to yellow.

Stoic
Originally posted by -Pr-
Hal has no weakness to yellow.

I keep hearing this, but then I hear that he does (I'm so confused) I'll take your word for it. Quasar still has two arms to his one though.

Q99
Originally posted by Stoic

Flash(Wally) vs Monica =
Photon (Former Captain Marvel) has all of the power sets to defeat Wally, she can fly, and keep up with him in all ways, plus she can use energy blasts to defeat him. Flash can also tire, as he needs to consume loads of food to keep himself going, Monica has no such problem in her energy state. She wins.

Wonder Woman vs Mantis =
Good fight, and they should square off nicely, the only thing here is that Mantis is more skilled while Diana is far faster, and much stronger. Wonder Woman would win after a long drawn out battle.


How about switch it around? Wonder Woman lassoing Monica while Wally deals with who he wants to.

Also, Wonder Woman has attacks that'll take Mantis out disregarding HtH skill, like a lightning blast from her bracers. Diana doesn't have to take Mantis on in her forte.

Stoic
Originally posted by kgkg
Wally can pretty much pick who he wants to take down.... Considering they have prior knowledge Wally will target less durable , slower characters.... Like Sersi , Mantis people on the ground etc

In all fairness he would be tied up with Monica, don't you think?

Stoic
Originally posted by Q99
How about switch it around? Wonder Woman lassoing Monica while Wally deals with who he wants to.

Also, Wonder Woman has attacks that'll take Mantis out disregarding HtH skill, like a lightning blast from her bracers. Diana doesn't have to take Mantis on in her forte.

The thread starter has it in that order so why break the rules? As it is both teams would have a hell of a fight on their hands as is, what if Thor took on Aquaman, flattened him real quick and ran after J'onn? Wouldn't be fair then would it?

Slaanesh
JLA..i think they are overall more powerful..

D_Dude1210
Just because he's always in a cheerful mood, doesn't mean he was moving at a slower speed. I mean, why would he? Mantis still managed to trip him pretty easily and I can see her tripping Wally, too. Then BAM! pressure point. Don't see this happening 10/10. Heck, I don't see this happening 5/10. Maybe 3/10. But I think it's possible.

kgkg
Originally posted by Stoic
In all fairness he would be tied up with Monica, don't you think? I don't think Monica has the Speed to stop Wallly....and you have to remember that Sersi and Mantis can be taken down easily if Wally can get some alone time with them.... They need to stop Wally quickly because he will started picking the Avengers apart starting with the grounded members.

Also it's not like the Avenger can afford to put attention on Wally since they others will be attack as well...

See people like Sersi can be deadly to the JLA that's why they will target someone like her from the getgo.

darthgoober
Originally posted by kgkg
Just because she tripped the Runner doesn't mean she can trip wally... does she have reaction speed to stop someone like Wally going at light speed+.... Knowing the runner he wasn't even trying at that point. I haven't seen anything from mantis that would say she can stop Wally


In V3 #7 the Runner think it's a joke that Surfer and Mantis can beat the Obliterator and they clearly indicate that Runner doesn't go all out in battles.... and Considering how easily Champion contained Mantis... I don't think she can last very long against Runner who man handled Surfer the issue prior to that.

Also there is Sersi who Wally can take down easy.

The Avengers don't have any speedsters to counter Wally.
Yeah and the fact that avoided folk doesn't mean that he can avoid Mantis. Seriously, how many times have we seen Flash tripped at this point, cause I'm pretty sure there's been a few. These guys aren't going all out they're fighting in character and while Mantis may or may not be able to trip him at top speed, I'm pretty sure she can trip at the speed he normally fights in. I mean he's not jobbing so if it becomes evident that he needs to speed up he will, but it's not like he's going to running at her fast enought to risk taking her head off right out of the gate.

How would Wally take down Sersi easily? The chicks an Eternal with flight and some impressive durability feats under her belt?

You don't need a speedster to counter a speedster, you just need someone who can counter a speedster.

Q99
Originally posted by Stoic
In all fairness he would be tied up with Monica, don't you think?

No, because WW can fly after Monica without Mantis doing anything, and he can run faster than Monica or Mantis and likewise pick.

They have more control over the matchup.




Just because they're in an order in the post does not mean they have to match up that way, heck the teams don't know the order at all, they aren't given a list or anything.

Most often, both teams generally face who they think is a good match, that is the toughest foe they think they can take who's not already taken by a teammate they think is going to win. And the JLA has a standard procedure to switch things up if they aren't winning.

If one side has a means that can control some matchups better, they're free to use it. Why wouldn't they try to win?




Thor has that option, but that frees up Superman to go after someone too, or Superman would try and intercept him.

On the flip side, the switch I proposed would be easy to pull off.

Likewise I might see
Aquaman(Magic Water Hand) vs Mar-Vell
and
Martian Manhunter vs Wonderman

switching around, simply because J'onn and Mar-vell are both fliers and Aquaman and Wonderman are both grounded.

It'll still result in a 1-win-for-each, the tactics don't result in a big swing, but fliers tend to match up against fliers in comic fights, groundeds vs groundeds, and so on.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Stoic
The thread starter has it in that order so why break the rules? As it is both teams would have a hell of a fight on their hands as is, what if Thor took on Aquaman, flattened him real quick and ran after J'onn? Wouldn't be fair then would it?
Uh...

Originally posted by darthgoober
I know that the rules for a normal forum match classify JLA/Avengers as non-cannon, but for the purposes of this thread we're going to assume that it IS cannon evidence for all parties. No one gets "basic knowledge" on the opposing team beyond what they ended JLA/Avengers with. Since I don't think these versions of Wonder Man and Aquaman were seen in the crossover, just assume that Grandmaster somehow gave them any memories their future versions aquired in the crossover.

Superman(current)
Green Lantern(Hal)
Flash(Wally)
Wonder Woman
Aquaman(Magic Water Hand)
Martian Manhunter
Firestorm

vs

Thor(classic)
Quasar
Monica Rambeau
Mantis(Celestial Madonna)
Mar-Vell
Pre Ionic Form Wonder Man(when he learned to grow, regenerate limbs, etc.)
Sersi


Everyone begins the match "Battle Ready" and fights in character(assume that only the winning team will be returned to their universe to help determine what will constitute "is character"wink. The battlefield is in a neutral universe(Speed Force works though) and looks identical to the one they fought on at the end of issue 2. Also note that this is a team battle, not 7 independant fights between logical counterparts.

Who takes it?

kgkg
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Just because he's always in a cheerful mood, doesn't mean he was moving at a slower speed. I mean, why would he? Mantis still managed to trip him pretty easily and I can see her tripping Wally, too. Then BAM! pressure point. Don't see this happening 10/10. Heck, I don't see this happening 5/10. Maybe 3/10. But I think it's possible. We don't know what speed he was moving at... that my point... but if you can find proof of Mantis being able to react to light speed attacks than It really doesn't matter you have a case that she can stop Wally.... But that is far from the case here.

Wally has also been tripped in the comics because you know he is not always moving at top speed.... In this fight he will be trying to win hence using his full ability.

When someone is joking around it usually means they are not going all out.... that was the reason given to why he failed to capture Surfer. Considering how Runner was talking about them < made them seem weak> It safe bet that the Runner could dispose them.

Tripping Runner doesn't mean she can trip Wally... Mantis need light Speed plus reaction speed to compete with Wally.... if she does have them I would love to see it.

darthgoober
Originally posted by kgkg
I don't think Monica has the Speed to stop Wallly....and you have to remember that Sersi and Mantis can be taken down easily if Wally can get some alone time with them.... They need to stop Wally quickly because he will started picking the Avengers apart starting with the grounded members.

Also it's not like the Avenger can afford to put attention on Wally since they others will be attack as well...

See people like Sersi can be deadly to the JLA that's why they will target someone like her from the getgo.
The JLA don't have any knowledge of how dangerous Sersi is outside of what they learned in JLA/Avengers.

And while Monica might not be able to match Wally's speed after he breaks lightspeed, she'll be able to match it right up till then(and may afterwards if she's composed of GL energy).

Slaanesh
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Just because he's always in a cheerful mood, doesn't mean he was moving at a slower speed. I mean, why would he? Mantis still managed to trip him pretty easily and I can see her tripping Wally, too. Then BAM! pressure point. Don't see this happening 10/10. Heck, I don't see this happening 5/10. Maybe 3/10. But I think it's possible.

tripping someone like Wally or Runner is clearly PIS for someone who doesn't have superspeed..they are basically like a statue to Wally or Runner..it is virtually impossible to trip them if u don't have comparable speed..

Q99
Lesse what'd happen if everyone when 'headhunter,' the strong picking on the weak...

Thor vs Aquaman
GL vs Mantis
Superman vs Mar-vell
Hmm... Quasar vs Firestorm? We're starting to get out of stompable DC-ers and we still have Wonderman to be beaten by J'onn, so I'll stop there, such tactics seem to favor DC if both teams do it.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Slaanesh
tripping someone like Wally or Runner is clearly PIS for someone who doesn't have superspeed..they are basically like a statue to Wally or Runner..it is virtually impossible to trip them if u don't have comparable speed..
Mantis is a mentat who's body is composed of mental energy(and has the ability to project her conciousness through time), her tripping runner isn't necessarily PIS. It could be, but it's far from definate.

kgkg
Going to bed will reply to posts tomorrow. Goodnight.

darthgoober
Originally posted by kgkg
We don't know what speed he was moving at... that my point... but if you can find proof of Mantis being able to react to light speed attacks than It really doesn't matter you have a case that she can stop Wally.... But that is far from the case here.

Wally has also been tripped in the comics because you know he is not always moving at top speed.... In this fight he will be trying to win hence using his full ability.

When someone is joking around it usually means they are not going all out.... that was the reason given to why he failed to capture Surfer. Considering how Runner was talking about them < made them seem weak> It safe bet that the Runner could dispose them.

Tripping Runner doesn't mean she can trip Wally... Mantis need light Speed plus reaction speed to compete with Wally.... if she does have them I would love to see it.
What what are you talking about in regards to him failing to capture Surfer?

Slaanesh
Originally posted by darthgoober
Mantis is a mentat who's body is composed of mental energy(and has the ability to project her conciousness through time), her tripping runner isn't necessarily PIS. It could be, but it's far from definate.

she still move way slower than Runner..Runner should have seen it..cuz u know..in Runners eyes..she is like moving in slow motion..it is clearly PIS..anyone who trip a speedster when he himself doesn't have superspeed is PIS..

-Pr-
Originally posted by Stoic
I keep hearing this, but then I hear that he does (I'm so confused) I'll take your word for it. Quasar still has two arms to his one though.

he has no weakness to yellow. even when parallax is inside the battery hal knows how to defend against yellow.

two hands never made that much of a difference, tbh. hal can make multiple projectiles/attacks.

Stoic
Originally posted by -Pr-
he has no weakness to yellow. even when parallax is inside the battery hal knows how to defend against yellow.

two hands never made that much of a difference, tbh. hal can make multiple projectiles/attacks.

Quasar can do the same, but it will be far easier for Quasar to deflect Hals bombardment while slapping him around with the other hand, than it would be for Hal to do this to him. basically it's like having a two great boxers fight. One has two arms while the other has one due to a broken hand. They both have nearly the same powers, Quasar just has the advantage.

Warlord
nice line-up for avengers....pretty original.
I find both teams to be equals in terms of power and I give the win to the Avengers only due to personal preference (5,1/10).

two things though.
1. the Flash deus ex machina thing is way overated. considering he is not a (regular) flyer and Quasar has cosmic awareness and speed >>> light I don't see him being as untouchable as you make him to be

2. Sersi being a weak link is funny

kgkg
Originally posted by darthgoober
What what are you talking about in regards to him failing to capture Surfer? Sry I was referring to this...
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/8307/runnerjok.th.jpg

Prep-Man
Split.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Stoic
Quasar can do the same, but it will be far easier for Quasar to deflect Hals bombardment while slapping him around with the other hand, than it would be for Hal to do this to him. basically it's like having a two great boxers fight. One has two arms while the other has one due to a broken hand. They both have nearly the same powers, Quasar just has the advantage.

i don't see how that applies at all. if hal wants to use both hands, he can. he's done it before. the ring responds to his thoughts, not his hand position.

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