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In traditional Adventian (uh?) accord,

Combatants: At her known peak, Sith Apprentice Bastila Shan versus Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Setting: I know you don't take the locale into account, but we'll go with the Hanger Bay aboard the Death Star where Vader fought Old Ben.

Rules: If you know anything about my rules, you'd know there is only one: none.

If you are unfamiliar with Bastila Shan, please familiarize yourself with her at her Wookiepedia page or play KOTOR. Bastila is aloud to use all her displayed dark side powers, and I believe with sourcebooks and the like, information on her abilities is more than plentiful. But, will it be enough to match the cunning Master Kenobi? You decide!

Probably Bastila, she just has too many powerful and esoteric Force powers. And that leaves Kenobi in a bad position, becuase he'll have to actively engage her to stop her from using the Force on him, eliminating his greatest strength: his massive defensive capabilities.

This is spite. RotS Obi-Wan's a virtual Unknown--he has only one movie to his name, and it's subjective to viewer opinion. There just isn't enough quantifiable feats to his name. Whereas there's three games with detailed and canonical description to everything Dark Side Bastila can do and has done: games, books, comics, encyclopedias, George Lucas commentaries.

There's a reason the KMC rules list the films as "Unknown" factors. How do we know if my DVD's rendition of Kenobi beat Vader with lightsabers or Force Pushes? How do we know if he had any medpacs or frag mines? There are too many variables left open and unanswered.

Also, Advent's back. Yay!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Probably Bastila, she just has too many powerful and esoteric Force powers. And that leaves Kenobi in a bad position, becuase he'll have to actively engage her to stop her from using the Force on him, eliminating his greatest strength: his massive defensive capabilities.

Yes, I see the scenario playing out in that manner, as well. Originally, it was going to be a team battle between Bastila and Dooku versus Yoda and Obi-Wan, but I first wanted to see where people's opinions were on Bastila's strength. Obi-Wan is generally the bench-mark by which I gauge characters.

Anyways, as stated, there's little Obi-Wan could do to withstand her in the Force department, especially when he hasn't even encountered nor heard of any of the plethora of skills in Bastila's deck. In terms of saber ability, combined with temperance and experience, I could see Obi-Wan defeating Bastila because of her brashness, especially in conjuncture with the dark side fueling her a la the dreaded duel on Mustafar against Anakin. Overall though, Bastila, being the more gifted of the two - particularly with her Sith arcana - would be the triumphant one, I would think.

On a side-note: *Pokes my Dex-Pal, Nephthys* Are you ready for the next season of Dexter in just over a month?! It promises to be murderously pleasurable - can't wait!

GB88Ml8DGFY


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This is spite. RotS Obi-Wan's a virtual Unknown--he has only one movie to his name, and it's subjective to viewer opinion. There just isn't enough quantifiable feats to his name. Whereas there's three games with detailed and canonical description to everything Dark Side Bastila can do and has done: games, books, comics, encyclopedias, George Lucas commentaries.

There's a reason the KMC rules list the films as "Unknown" factors. How do we know if my DVD's rendition of Kenobi beat Vader with lightsabers or Force Pushes? How do we know if he had any medpacs or frag mines? There are too many variables left open and unanswered.

There are too many variables in the above text to make any form of cogent response. That being said, it seems you've left your variable open. *points and giggles at Lucien*



Better yet: LUCIEN IS STILL HERE! YAY! Of course, I cannot be sure if that's a good or bad thing for you...my senses tell me that there is still much noob in this forum.

Yes, KMC's Cherry Blossom has bloomed once again. I was going to wait until I re-watched The Dark Knight before customarily returning, but then thought, if I am going to be dragged back into the aching idiocy and migraines brought about by such discussions that stem too many letters in length, I'll just stick to kosher Star Wars. Notwithstanding, in the end, a second thought sparked within me - for the pure paradoxical entertainment purposes that this board brings, I think I'll watch it today...or is the fun already over?

And what are these "plethora of skills" you speak of exactly? Aside from her battle meditation, what exactly does she have that Obiwan can't handle? I only ask because I've played KOTOR a million times and still can't figure out what makes Bastila so special aside from her BM.


You could see? When has Bastila been an exceptional saber duelist like Obiwan? I understand that Obiwan's Soresu is mainly for defensive purposes but we know very little about Bastila's saber prowess other than she wasn't exceptional.

Advent
I was going to wait until I re-watched The Dark Knight before customarily returning,

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Also, Advent's back. Yay!

Oh great! I was getting hungry and now I don't have to make my own sandwich anymore.

Originally posted by Advent
I think I'll watch it today...or is the fun already over?

Well yes, kind of. Unless you want to put something out for discussion again.

S
Unless you want to put something out for discussion again.

Gideon, it's not because she's a woman, that she can't take initiative. It's the year 2010, they are allowed to actually do stuff now.

I hope Advent doesn't beat me up now.

That discussion was the single most stressful encounter I've had all week, probably, culminating in an e-pal suffering acute psychological breakdown because I'm not a Batman fanatic and my thorough responses being deleted by an uncooperative internet connection.

I admit, I wanted to kill all of you after that.

Advent gave her all of these: 'During her short time as a Sith apprentice, she was capable of using Force powers such as Force Insanity, Force Choke, Force Wave, Force lightning, Force Plague, Force Breach, Drain Life, and Force Stasis Field. From her point of view, she was more powerful than all but a few Jedi Masters, Malak, and of course, Revan himself.'

Originally posted by Advent
On a side-note: *Pokes my Dex-Pal, Nephthys* Are you ready for the next season of Dexter in just over a month?! It promises to be murderously pleasurable - can't wait!

GB88Ml8DGFY


I have dirtied my undergarments. Just a month? Oh hell yes!

duroolio

Originally posted by Nephthys
Advent gave her all of these: 'During her short time as a Sith apprentice, she was capable of using Force powers such as Force Insanity, Force Choke, Force Wave, Force lightning, Force Plague, Force Breach, Drain Life, and Force Stasis Field. From her point of view, she was more powerful than all but a few Jedi Masters, Malak, and of course, Revan himself.'


Can you give me the source of these Force Powers, please?

Holy shit. It's been a while Mokoto Sama. I've missed all the epic debates we used to have (especially the ones involving Odan-Urr, Crado and Oss Wilum (that I like totally won )).

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Can you give me the source of these Force Powers, please?

They're her fixed Force powers after her conversion to the Sith.

Where are these canonical powers stated exactly? Not sure if any of those powers exist outside of gameplay, and nobody cares about Bastila's point of view because it's not credible.

The way I envision the scenario playing out, Obi-Wan's defensive nature and comparatively diminutive Force skills would pigeon-hole him into a situation where he's faced with a combination of deadly Force powers and an offensive, double-bladed lightsaber-wielding Sith. Unfortunately there's no terrain for Kenobi to manipulate, and the only way it looks like he could win is if Bastila gets too arrogant a la Darth Maul or her rage causes her to make the slightest mistake, which Kenobi would quickly (and easily) capitalize on. Otherwise, it will be Sith-fried Obi-Wan that Bastila will be bringing home to Malak in a doggy bag for dinner. It is my opinion, but I just find it highly unlikely Kenobi would win due to the huge Force disadvantage he is at and the exceptional nature of the opponent.

Triple post incoming...

Originally posted by Gideon


Is that how you mother Kentuckers treat a lady?

Let me guess: Rand Paul 2010?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I hope Advent doesn't beat me up now.

No, no - the harshest pummelling would come from the possible innuedo in your previous post:


Now the whole kitchen business I have gotten countless times on virtually every social internet medium; here's to any ham and cheese sammich in your future:


http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/2777/makeyourowndamndinnerbi.png

Originally posted by Aede Madavan
Holy shit. It's been a while Mokoto Sama. I've missed all the epic debates we used to have (especially the ones involving Odan-Urr, Crado and Oss Wilum (that I like totally won )).

XD! I've always wondered if your delusions stem from drinking your own urine-infused Kool-Aid, or is that just a trait you were born with?

Lest us remember that thread regarding Force potentials, where you were forced into bringing in two moderators - "English Major Gestapo" Ushgarak, as well as Lana - where all of you were utterly wrong on the connotation of the word "apex" in regards to Maul's force potential (unfortunately, I had to surrender under authoritarian pressure). Good times. ^_-

Count Kent, l0rd?, Planet, HK-69, et alii; I made the compendium post somewhere (now long outdated) and I even know your first secret identity. Glad to know you are still socking it to the Man (but of course, never the Woman).

S_W_Legend could learn a few things from you.

In the interest of balancing out the amount of ass kissing within this thread, I must play devil's advocate.

Advent, I am not happy to see you back here, I have not been making happy birthday threads for you every year (this one being the except since I took a year off coming here) since you've joined, and I hate your siggy and avatar. Your dumbassery and inability to comprehend simple logic is a plague to this forum, and I feel dumber for reading your posts.

Get out, and never return.

Also, Maul sux. So there.

Will do, Blaxidarling.

And ask me how I'll sleep at night.

My reply? "Like a baby".

Turning the chat towards you, weren't you suppose to be out on a ledge somewhere?

I pussied out. The concept of never being able to talk to the insightful and wise fellows on KMC is something I can't handle.

How do you sleep at night, you witch?!

In a slightly unrelated to cursing your name spirit, how's life? Last time I talked to you, you were doing the college by day party like it's 1999 by night live style, haha.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I pussied out. The concept of never being able to talk to the insightful and wise fellows on KMC is something I can't handle.

Yeah, I'd miss S_W Legend that much, too.



"Meh" best describes the situation (philosophically-speaking, that seems to be the best answer). I have one of those "Attended the American Educational System for Two Decades and All I Got Was This Crappy Job at Target!" bumper stickers now. To even get the job, I had to use a friend's pee to pass...I don't think I even learned that trick in school either.

Things seem to be working out fine for the time being, though, just need to get a few things lined up, so 'tis all good - I could be living under Sharia law in Saudi Arabia or somewhere like that, so I tend to not get down that much, particularly considering I could poison my parent's virtually ritualistic sashimi meals at any time and get inheritance money; preferably wasting it all on publishing a ghost-written, ginned-up, talking-point memo book about why liberals are destroying America: a guaranteed best-seller.

How about yourself? Since you're still alive and at least have the hand and some brain functionality (who knows about the rest), all goes well, I hope?

Eh, still a brown person and a detrimental pimple on the ass of society, for the most part.

Kinda in a similar boat as you; I graduated from High School last year, and there's very few people looking to hire, though in my case, a kid with no work experience and a D- grade average logically isn't very desirable to a hiring manager, lol. Fortunately there are some people who have use for a 6'5 250 black guy who looks good in a suit, so, I've got a promising future in the world of minimum wage security work.

I've got a license and a car, which is nice, and am kicking ass in College, which is also nice. Hope to eventually get my degree in computer science so that I too can get paid $70 an hour to tell people that their power plug wasn't plugged in, or that the switch on their power strip has to be in the "ON" position in order for it to receive power. You know, stuff that, obviously, only one who's toiled through years of rigorous IT training can figure out through power of observation.

Aside from that, not really doin' much of anything tbh, lol. Chilling with friends and trying unsuccesfully to convince women that "he's really good at Starcraft" is a viable point to bring up in their I-lost-my-virginity-last-night discussion with their girlfriends takes up most of my free time. If you don't mind me asking, what major did you pursue?

Oh and also, for more recent news, my four wisdom teeth were taken out on Monday, so I'm so doped up right now that I make Heath Ledger look like a straight edge (too soon?!), and get hourly visits from that little rat thing who was Jabba's pet. He gives great head.

Well then.....

Uh-oh, have we broken your "KMC is not a feelings diary" Beefington?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Uh-oh, have we broken your "KMC is not a feelings diary" Beefington? No, that response was to advent's well thought out novel to my 1-2 questions.

Advents post should be put in the Holocron thingy. And praised for all time! Unknown my donkey!

the problem with listing all of those force powers and calling them "canon" is the fact that they are NOT in fact canon that Bastilla knew them. She had access to whatever force powers you, the player, gave her. If you never bothered to level her, she had very few.


We have been over this more times than I can count. Even our newest and most naive members learn this within a few days.

Advent, you know better.

it only suprises me that 2 people agree with you. DE of course, because he is daft, but someone else does too?

This will be my only post on the matter.

Originally posted by truejedi
the problem with listing all of those force powers and calling them "canon" is the fact that they are NOT in fact canon that Bastilla knew them. She had access to whatever force powers you, the player, gave her. If you never bothered to level her, she had very few.


We have been over this more times than I can count. Even our newest and most naive members learn this within a few days.

Advent, you know better.

it only suprises me that 2 people agree with you. DE of course, because he is daft, but someone else does too?

This will be my only post on the matter.

I think she means that Bastila has access to these abilities after you lost control of her, so when she went to the Dark Side.

This is Dark Side Bastila after Malak converts her. She always has the same Force powers and they can't be changed. It's 100% canon that these were the ones she knew. Thats why I said they were 'fixed'.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is Dark Side Bastila after Malak converts her. She always has the same Force powers and they can't be changed. It's 100% canon that these were the ones she knew. Thats why I said they were 'fixed'.

and where are all of those abilities listed? Wikipedia is not a source.

and where does it say she was in any way skilled with those abilities? Wikipedia is not a source.

I see this battle ending, like 95 percent of battles do between sith and jedi, with lightsabers, where bastilla won't be able to compete.

Unless I'm mistaken, she listed the Canon sources for me. Otherwise I wouldn't have dropped the matter.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is Dark Side Bastila after Malak converts her. She always has the same Force powers and they can't be changed. It's 100% canon that these were the ones she knew. Thats why I said they were 'fixed'. The problem with this logic is, she was a dark Jedi for a few weeks at best and so we can't logically consider the new powers.

In the game. Those are the abilities she can use against you in her fights and if you get her back in the DS ending, these are the abilities you get her back with. These abilities cannot be changed or altered except by cheating.



Doubtful, if Bastila notices that she's outmatched in sabers she'll fall back and Force him to death, and Kenobi lacks the offence to stop her from doing so imo.

What? These are the abilities she actually has. I don't see how they could not be canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the game. Those are the abilities she can use against you in her fights and if you get her back in the DS ending, these are the abilities you get her back with. These abilities cannot be changed or altered except by cheating.



The listed abilities you get her back with are not, however, quantified.(and I'm sorry if i didn't make that clear before, I could have saved us a couple of posts.)

How good is she with these powers? Considering how short a time she has been with Malak, it is doubtful that she has achieved anything that is anywhere near mastery with them. Also, DEFINE a lot of those powers? A lot of them looked a lot like variations on TK. Kenobi has already blocked an all-out force shove from the chosen one himself, Bastilla's TK isn't going to be able to spin Kenobi like a top.



Kenobi has been attacked with the force by Dooku, by Assajji and by Anakin. In his battle with Durge, he reaches out a hand and blocks ALL of the bullets from what appears to be a mini-gun. His force abilities are not weak enough that we assume he, a Jedi Master, loses to every single opponent who uses the force.

He was taken off guard for a single moment by DOOKU, a being who was arguably the 2nd most powerful jedi behind Yoda BEFORE leaving the order, and you act like Kenobi will fall to every single person who attacks him through the force. This simply isn't the case.

Bastilla isn't Dooku.

Regardless, I will stick to the fact that 95% of fights between force-users end with a sabers death.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Unless I'm mistaken, she listed the Canon sources for me. Otherwise I wouldn't have dropped the matter.

No disrespect to Advent at all, but that post was entirely too long for me even to pretend to read. A point by point argument breaks it up a little. Or even a short post with listed sources.... But that was like a novel. I don't love this place that much.

No offence at all, but if you aren't going to bother to read the arguments then why are you arguing?

okay i read it.. : ) maybe i do love this place that much. I problem lies here:




When I played Bastilla, I defeated her in 3 double-bladed, JEdi Knight Speed attacks.She used no force powers against me whatsoever.

So to say that these are canon because they were "demonstrated" isn't quite fair, i don't think.

One other problem with those: what are "Force whirlwind" "force wave" "force insanity" "force slow" "force breach"
"force plague" "force stasis field"


Looks like TK, and nothing else, to be honest. Certainly whirlwind, wave, slow, breach, and stasis field are nothing but TK.

These attacks are game mechanics, and nothing more.

Is "Force rage" and "Force sense"(an apparent ability to sense weapons and med-packs from several floors up) actual abilities? No. Neither are these.

Instant heal med-packs aren't real, and neither is "Force Whirlwind"

There I said it.

Originally posted by truejedi
No disrespect to Advent at all, but that post was entirely too long for me even to pretend to read. A point by point argument breaks it up a little. Or even a short post with listed sources.... But that was like a novel. I don't love this place that much. I completely agree but I did skim through it and it was thought out. I was also only looking for sources and she DID list them although page numbers would be helpful.

Originally posted by Advent
Another would be mind tricking Motta the Hutt, a member of the unnaturally strong Force-resistance Hutt species. A good comparison for mind-affecting powers then, based on that latter feat, would be in Episode I, where Qui-Gon Jinn was completely denied by the more easily beguiled Watto.


Wait, is this even Canon? I don't know for sure but I don't think it is... I haven't played the game in a long time though.

She can do it. I've had her do it several times.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She can do it. I've had her do it several times.

Just because something CAN happen in a game doesn't mean it did happen.

now then, very simply, respond to my post or concede.
I can understand why you would do the latter.

Yes master, no master, three bags full master.



Advents post makes it clear that she is a highly competant and powerful Force-user, and I feel bad that I may parrot it a little. There are many things that support this, for example: She is repeatedly call 'strong' in the force and her strength in it is compared to Revan's own. Her ability to quickly and handily defeat one of Revan's personal Sith guards, who would logically be elite/master level combatants and was tasked with Revan's capture, despite her immense worth to the order and the war, which could only occur if they believed that she had a better chance of success than, say, a jedi master like Vrook or Vandar. The fact that, by Carths admission, she was practically the single thing stopping Revan from steamrolling the Republic, speaks volumes about the fact that they still thought she was the best person to risk sending against Revan. A large variety and range of telekinetic-based techniques, indicating a huge mastery of that skill. Etc Etc. Also, the Force abilities she has are all mid-high level, indicating at least some measure of ability and comfort in their use of them. She isn't going to blow up her own hand with FLightning or any shit like that.

Also, these bits:





speak for themselves.



If I may parrot Advent again, Anakin wasn't even close to being 100% in that fight, he was emotionally nuked, and even at 100% he wasn't too impressive in the Force anyway.



And got owned.



Elaborate please.



Yet it clearly wasn't, as the 'bullets' were slow as ****.



Yet they are on the same tier according to the Champions of the Force preview.



Then by your own admission Bastila is very advanced in the field of TK, as demonstrated by all these variations and techniques based off of it she knows. Muuuuuuuuch more varied than anything Obi-Wan's ever done, indicating a higher level of skill.



Yes, Sith fuelling themselves with their rage has and always has been canon.



The ability to sense things through the Force has and always has been canon.



Bacta (what I believe medpacks are made of) is canon actually.



Yes it is. It even occurs in a cutscene.



Nevertheless, she demonstrates that she can do it. Revan doesn't have to use a blaster, does this mean she can't? No, becuase she can, even if you don't personally do so.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Advents post makes it clear that she is a highly competant and powerful Force-user, and I feel bad that I may parrot it a little. There are many things that support this, for example: She is repeatedly call 'strong' in the force and her strength in it is compared to Revan's own.


Revan's strength in the force is never quantified however. A comparison with an unknown does not make an unknown a known.



I seem to remember Yoda walking into the Senate chamber and crushing two "elite-master level combatants" into a wall. I remember Count Dooku was accompanied by SBD's I remember Grievous was accompanied by chump droids, and that Palpatine was protected in LOE by no-name Jedi, 4 of which were killed by Grievous.

The fact that someone defeated an unknown who was protecting and unknown does not make that person known.


This seems to speak more of the incompetence of the Jedi order than to the competence of the unknown bastilla. because an unknown is POSSIBLY considered stronger than an unknown does not make that unkown known.


because an unknown is POSSIBLY considered stronger than an unknown does not make that unkown known.





This means she doesn't actually have an exotic range of attacks. Just TK. and possibly some sort of mental attack.
She also never displays those actual abilities so we don't know WHAT a mid-high level means in terms of either the game, or a real-life duel.





Canon quote saying that the chosen one was too impressive in the Force? Also, canon quote saying Anakin's ability to use TK was diminished during his duel with Kenobi? Provide those and I drop the point.




no.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQTzGzVSHec

at 32s. Kenobi successfully holds off Dooku-Force attack and forces a saber battle. just as he will against Bastilla.



In Clone Wars Cartoons.



Those slow as **** bullets were just as fast as any blasters anyone has ever used onscreen in SW's. They fall under the same "slowed down speed" rules as Mace and SIdious's fight. If you really want to go with "how things look" on screen, then we can say that Bastilla only knows ONE SWING of her lghtsaber, and if any opponent bothers to use a move other than the classic block shown over and over on KOTOR, then she can be killed outright.

Nice try on this one.




and "same tier" remains undefined. In what? Combat? Saber skills? Good looks? Tough to say, isn't it?




Um... blocked the chosen one? You still need to prove Anakin "wasn't all that great in the force anyway." cause I think that is one of the more stupid things you have ever said.




Never has it turned them red. Therefore the ability in the game, as shown in the game, is noncanon



enemies, yes. Weapons and medpacks? no.




Nothing in star wars instantly heals you in a middle of a duel, and you KNOW THIS. Either you are having fun with thsi discussion to the point of irresponsibility, or you are desperately stretching.




Its not WHIRLWIND for the last freaking time. Its tk. And the fact that an opponent can be so badly beaten in TK doesn't speak much of their abilities.




So your contention is that Revan (and by extension every companion in KOTOR and KOTOR 2) KNOWS every ability that it is POSSIBLE they could have learned in the game?

Honestly, that is as stupid as anything SW_Legend has ever said. Take it back or be equated with him.

You know, can we really even consider it impressive for people to be called "strong in the force"? Every force user with a name is called "strong in the force" at one point in their career, or "powerful", or "skilled".

Everything else aside, this right here is a rather weak argument. This is due to the fact that it is clearly talking about the minatures rather than the characters. Hence why they use the term Darth Vader, Jedi hunter.

Other than thay good argumets.

I've never completed KOTOR, so bear with me here. Did Bastilla canonically become a dark jedi, or no? I could read her wookie article but I'm playing Mass Effect right now so it would be nice if someone could just explain it to me.

Yeah she did. Malak made her his *****, but then Revan redeemed her.

100% unalterable, yes to the max!

Wow, my new avatar really can't pull off peppy. It just comes off as creepy.

Moreover, Bastila Shan is not an unknown any more than most other characters used in the Versus forum. "BUT ADVENT, WE DON'T KNOW THESE THINGS ABOUT X!" - you're right, this is where we reasonably and logically deduce from established facts to create a platform base on which to argue from. We do know enough about Bastila to make inferences about her talents, and if one is incapable of deriving conclusions (whether sound or not) from the information available, an unknown that makes one not, but a known nincompoop.

Originally posted by truejedi
Also, canon quote saying Anakin's ability to use TK was diminished during his duel with Kenobi? Provide those and I drop the point.

You don't need a canon quote, True Jedi. We've been over this before:

Originally posted by Advent
Let's start with the fact that Anakin wasn't fighting like he does against Dooku. He ends up reverting back to the mindless berserker state that I mentioned earlier. That's number one. Number two, his psychological state was severely f'ed up. He was crazed. He choked his wife, the very reason he turned to the dark side, slaughtered children, and his Jedi brethren. He is shown crying at one point. The mental state is the most important aspect of battle. Bar none.

A Jedi's ability to use the Force is directly correlated to their mental state. When you are undergoing extreme trauma, as Anakin manifestly was, it naturally follows that his connection to the Force, and therefore strength with it, will be lessened. This is a staple point of all spectrum of the Force; you can find any old Jedi master babbling on about it, but it's very real (well, in the mythos). An example: Anakin was beginning to lose his edge in the duel with Dooku in ROTS until "the terror and the rage out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell". I.e., his attunement to the Force became stronger due to the dispelling of emotional haze, hence allowing him to unleash his real strength.

In Anakin's case, his Force connection would have been down by a great degree, because he did possess and would have had access to a power level that is far greater than 80% of Emperor Palpatine. Unless you want to argue that Obi-Wan had anywhere near that kind of power or demonstrated TK on the levels of Anakin, then your point should be discarded for that reason, too.



Dooku was utterly toying with Kenobi there with a one-handed, single burst of lightning. He was in complete control the entire time during the AOTC fight with Obi-Wan. He could have dispatched him at any point. As for your assertion at the end, how in Coruscant's name would Kenobi's saber absorb mind-affecting powers or even telekinesis? It wouldn't.

Nephthys and myself were quite obviously referring to the Revenge of the Sith duel:

V6_dxW4NpDU#t=0m34s

The duel starts at 0:36 until 0:42. That's six seconds. A resume at 0:53 until 0:58, with the first Force push, where "the slightest whipcrack of power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward..." Revenge of the Sith novelization, TXT]. Aside from the fact Dooku was initially messing around, Obi-wan lasted a whopping 11 seconds before getting Force pwned with casual ease.

Of course, as soon as Obi-Wan is back into the fray at 1:14, just as he attempts his first strike, he is hoisted up into the air like he was Dooku's red-headed stepchild and tossed around like a ragdoll halfway across the room faster than a pack of hounds on a three-legged cat! All while Dooku is simultaneously mule-kicking Anakin.

Yes, just like Bastila Shan will do to him - in smoking Sith style!

@ Blaxican:

That PM you sent me had me literally laughing my ass off, XD! Details will come in due time...in due time.

As for Bastila, she did canonically fall to the Dark Side when Malak captured her on the Leviathan and then tortured her into submission, where she became his Sith Apprentice. Of course, Jesuschrist, I mean Revanchist, redeems her when she confronts him on the Star Forge. After Revan travels out into the Unknown Regions, it's mentioned that Bastila is a surviving member of the Jedi Order (if you choose the canon, Light Side Revan in the beginning dialogue, I believe).

Also, please don't mention Mass Effect. Although I loved the first ME, BioWare pissed me off with ME2 to the point where I paid $60.00 for a game that I couldn't even stomach to play through pass the first five minutes due to shall we say "limited customization" and the fact the game developers wouldn't allow you to skip the damn opening scene and initial play. I should just stick with the trustworthy PC versions of things, where character editing is almost always possible.

My question is, if the canon sources are written years before the games, are they still just as canon?

Originally posted by Nephthys


Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Advent
Another would be mind tricking Motta the Hutt, a member of the unnaturally strong Force-resistance Hutt species. A good comparison for mind-affecting powers then, based on that latter feat, would be in Episode I, where Qui-Gon Jinn was completely denied by the more easily beguiled Watto.
Wait, is this even Canon? I don't know for sure but I don't think it is... I haven't played the game in a long time though. She can do it. I've had her do it several times.

So you're saying it's not Canon. Because it is only a possibility in the game?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
You know, can we really even consider it impressive for people to be called "strong in the force"? Every force user with a name is called "strong in the force" at one point in their career, or "powerful", or "skilled". Aksoka Tano, Brie, that Cathar Jedi from the KotOR comics. Uh, Leia. Some other miscellaneous one-shots whose names escape me because they're useless.

Advent, very good posts. I'll address them as soon as DE answers the posts I addressed to him. That way I can do it all in one sitting, and my argument with him doesn't disappear behind pages of text. (you are either more skilled, or more dedicated at cranking out long posts than myself it seems. : )

Originally posted by truejedi
Advent, very good posts. I'll address them as soon as DE answers the posts I addressed to him. That way I can do it all in one sitting, and my argument with him doesn't disappear behind pages of text. (you are either more skilled, or more dedicated at cranking out long posts than myself it seems. : )

...She is quite skilled...

Jin, you WOULD say that! you dirty dog.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So you're saying it's not Canon. Because it is only a possibility in the game?

I'll need to re-check, but even if it were only a possibility that Bastila mind-tricked Motta the Hutt, its canonization would only be unknown; not necessarily not-canon. Nevertheless, I'm unsure myself, but I will try out a line of theoretical argument to supersede the notion of "did it happen" on this particular issue. I am going to be operating under the assumption that Bastila did not perform the feat in canon.

Since

Bastila had the ability and Force strength to mind trick Motta the Hutt,

as if she didn't,

it would not even be a possibility in the first place,

It is thus

that it matters not whether or not she actually accomplished the feat, because she could have.

In other words, the gaming developers (I reiterate: gods) gave Bastila enough power to dominate the mind of Motta the Hutt if the player so chose. But, regardless of the player's actions, that power was always there in game coding, so, in theory, Bastila could mind-trick Motta the Hutt if she had or wanted to.

Ergo, it's safe to be used as a gauge for Shan's talents.

Originally posted by truejedi
Advent, very good posts. I'll address them as soon as DE answers the posts I addressed to him. That way I can do it all in one sitting, and my argument with him doesn't disappear behind pages of text. (you are either more skilled, or more dedicated at cranking out long posts than myself it seems. : )

No problem - take as much time as you would like, True Jedi. It is not as if we're discussing how to end world hunger and the world is watching for an answer. It's Star Wars...far more important.

And as for more skilled? Hogwash, meesa thinks! I do not believe in such concepts (or its relevancy, at least). Besides, I recall you giving me a run for my money on the occasions we've clashed.

My whole shtick is argument from verbosity (the germane version; not the fallacious one), which seems to work out quite well because it either puts any opposition to sleep or ends up being too much work to read through - that whole less than 10,000 characters thing is apparently too grueling for the boys at KMC. Still, a pat on the back for you: despite the complaints, you read through my posts (not sure if you fell asleep), but at least you did it!

Postscript: Congratulating someone for reading a post is like the indubitable new-era tradition of positive affirmation for kids - "A Winner Is You": "even though your team lost the tournament and you sat on the bench the entire season, here's your trophy, Timmy, which looks exactly like the champion's one! It even has your name on it in bold print!". Yes, Timmy, let's see what they give you once you get your ass out into the real world - a swift kick is my bet, slacker.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, my new avatar really can't pull off peppy. It just comes off as creepy.

That's an observation I'd make as well...seriously, tell Garrett to stop staring at me like that!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
My question is, if the canon sources are written years before the games, are they still just as canon?

If the later source merely corroborates or adds to the former source, then sure.

Edit: Do not forget to check the previous page for the post prior to this Slash and True Jedi (depending on your page settings).

Originally posted by Advent
That's an observation I'd make as well...seriously, tell Garrett to stop staring at me like that!

He can't help it, your avatar dresses provocatively. uhuh

Revan always has the potential to learn Force Storm, and the power to use it, but doesn't canonally learn it and it can't be used in a forum match. Bastila always has the power necessary to Mind **** Motta the Hutt, but doesn't necessarily do it, and it isn't canon that she does, but she can do it. Thats how I see it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan always has the potential to learn Force Storm, and the power to use it, but doesn't canonally learn it and it can't be used in a forum match. Bastila always has the power necessary to Mind **** Motta the Hutt, but doesn't necessarily do it, and it isn't canon that she does, but she can do it. Thats how I see it.

So it practically comes down to Revan (and the other Jedi) having the power to use Force Storm, which is like I said, a gauge for Revan's strengths. I'm not going to start about all the characters that can become Jedi and also having the power to accomplish amazing feats in KOTOR 2.

Btw Exodus, I think TJ is waiting for your responses.

My Wankers Cramp is telling me he'll probably have to wait till tomorrow.

Originally posted by Advent
A better suggestion than "unknown canon"?

Well, let me rephrase that to "unknown-if-canon" or "canonicity unknown"; whichever sounds prettier.

I like "of unascertained canonicity". It's the most audiologically pleasing.

Nephthys agrees.

Wait, since when can Revan NOT use the force storm? I'm not going to say he invented it but it's pretty obvious that is one of the main powers in his arsenal.

But the force storm is almost impossible not to acquire in this game. You may not choose it but by the 5th or 6th mission, it's definitely there.

Yes.


The bipartite ending to TFU contains a thorough shellacking of our noble protagonist by the old pedophileEmperor, as well as a self-sacrifice. Despite the fact that the self-sacrifice (light side ending) is the canon ending for the game, it is entirely reasonable to cite the Dark Side ending (in which Starkiller gets beat like a foster-child) as an example of his strength in relation to the Emperor.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
But the force storm is almost impossible not to acquire in this game. You may not choose it but by the 5th or 6th mission, it's definitely there.

It has to be programmed from the beginning. If I decide to let Bastila "basement" Shan behind, she still would have been able to do her little trick even if you don't bring her. Force Storm is not a power set from the beginning.

Srsly, I really need someone to post a screenshot or to tape Motta being Force mind tricked. I have a feeling that Advent just used Wookie as a source here.

It's strange to argue that Revan doesn't have the force storm. He's the first character we ever see using it. Oh well.

I can vouch for it. First you have to fail to (force?) persuade Motta into letting that douchebag prodigy racer have a better contract, so Bas steps in and shows you how its done.



Getting it is completely up to the player, so its non-canon gameplay, but doesn't one of the Rakatan mention that Darth Revan used something that sounded a lot like Force Storm against them?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can vouch for it. First you have to fail to (force?) persuade Motta into letting that douchebag prodigy racer have a better contract, so Bas steps in and shows you how its done.


Revan is so incompetent.

Must be the uteras.

well, since DE refuses to reply, but has time to argue about Revan.. . hmph.

Let me settle the Revan debate: Bane learned the force storm ritual from the Revan holocron, right? K.... now i shall reply to advent.

Same argument here as I used for the mental attacks. I don't think we are as far apart as I initially thought. These are TK attacks. The NAME of the attacks are merely a gameplay mechanic that allows the player to access the use of the force in that way.

Yes, they use the force to create a whirlwind, sure, but it is still just TK. So i don't deny the ability, just the pokemon name and the fact that such an attack would be so utterly unknown to Kenobi that he couldn't counter it. It is just TK after all.



our argument in a single sentence:
Kenobi wasn't using Force Wave, he was reaching out with the force to knock Anakin over.

So really I don't think we disagree THAT much... if you know what I mean.


Also, final point of contention, IF (and I absolutely do not) I couldn't counter the above and said, you are absolutely correct, and Bastilla knew all of these exotic techniques, then I would want some sort of idea HOW POWERFUL she was with each one before it could be said it would make a difference in a duel with Kenobi. A level 2, or Level 3 means nothing. There were a lot of other factors in KOTOR as well, the force ability of the user, if the user was dark-side or light-side, what special clothing the user was wearing...

Its absolutely unquantifiable exactly "how good" at force plague bastilla was.

arrrrrrghhhhhhH! i just deleted 10K words. I lose. Its just that simple. I won't address it again.


why did I DO that? I split it up correctly, then previewed the first half. Decided i liked it, COPY PASTED THE SECOND FREAKING HALF OVER THE FIRST FREAKING HALF. i'm frothy with rage.


Advent, i'll give you the freaking bullet points, but I won't type out the point by point again.

1. These attacks were probably known by the characters if they came pre-loaded. I admit this.
2. These attacks ARE used elsewhere, but it is my contention that they are NOT specific attacks that are learned, and then "activated" at specific times. They are the way KOTOR addressed allowing the player to access the force. They fall largely into mental and TK categories. While the use of the force in such a way is documented, it doesn't mean they learned a specific technique.

Kenobi doesn't "know force wave" as you put it. He simply uses the force to push anakin. Therefore a "force-whirlwind" isn't going to be completely strange to him, since he is aware of force TK attacks.
Therefore:
3. Attacks are canon, their specificity are game-play mechanics. Anyone that knows TK could do Force Wave or Force Whirlwind, it is not restricted to those that learned a specific attack of that name.

4. I brought up instant medpacks and force sensing of weapons, because those are things" that exist within the C-Canon world of KOTOR and are attainable" You used that exact quote to call those force powers canon, however, those instant medpacks and force sensing of weapons fit exactly the same category, and are still non-canon as far as we know.

5. Force Rage (i went on at length about this and made a fine argument, i'm especially crushed this one went away...) : (

in short: All Darksiders are using their anger to access the force, yes. And they may be filled with rage when they do so, but they don't employ a "force rage" to get there. The rage leads to the use of the force, the "attack" doesn't do so.

Sidious tells Luke "Use your anger" he doesn't say "activate Force Rage!"


gaahhhh, there was more points too... and now i forget. much sadness.

oh yes:

6. These specific, exotic attacks are indeed based on real attacks, but their specificity itself(the name) is non-canon, in the same way that a "combo-move" from Jedi Power Battles is non-canon.

Love this thread really XD

Advent, I would give it to you just by the sheer amount of effort you are putting into this

I think DE is right about Revan though. I DO remember the Rakata describing something that can only be the force storm.

Originally posted by truejedi
well, since DE refuses to reply, but has time to argue about Revan.. . hmph.

Let me settle the Revan debate: Bane learned the force storm ritual from the Revan holocron, right? K.... now i shall reply to advent.

DS, i think i agreed with Exodus in this post already, did I not?

Originally posted by truejedi
arrrrrrghhhhhhH! i just deleted 10K words. I lose. Its just that simple. I won't address it again.


why did I DO that? I split it up correctly, then previewed the first half. Decided i liked it, COPY PASTED THE SECOND FREAKING HALF OVER THE FIRST FREAKING HALF. i'm frothy with rage.


Advent, i'll give you the freaking bullet points, but I won't type out the point by point again.

Appreciated.

I have had that happen to me on more than one occasion - I know the feeling. Don't sweat it. To match you, I'll try to be as short and sweet as possible on my reply.

I need to take a break from this discussion (and forum) for at least the rest of the day, because Slash has my mind in a state of tormenting, wracking pain from the befuddling posts he makes, but I will be sure to get around to addressing your posts.

to be fair, the "Hutt" mind trick works sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't, am i correct? (its been a long time since i played) So in a canon sort of time-line, Bastilla doesn't always have the amount of skill necessary to do the trick.

Plus, according to Watto in TPM, mind tricks don't work at all against Toydarians. So being able to do one to a hutt doesn't say anything except that the hutt was weak-minded.

The Exile also fails if you use a mind trick on a Toydarian. I'm not sure about mind dominate though, don't recall ever getting in.

Originally posted by truejedi
DS, i think i agreed with Exodus in this post already, did I not?


Ahhhh good point, why did I completely forget about Revan's holocron? Shit. So yes, Revan has the force storm.

The point i made about the Durge/Kenobi duel was also highly pertinent. (whenever you want to address it master Exodus)

While mind tricking a Hutt is impressive it is not unheard of. Qui-Gon manages to also mind trick a Hutt in the Jedi Apprentice books.

Regardless, even if the developers intended that Bastilla (and Revan) had enough power to that doesn't make it canon. Afterall, GL intended for Boba Fett and Palpatine to die and to stay dead; yet looked what happened to that.

Originally posted by truejedi
to be fair, the "Hutt" mind trick works sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't, am i correct? (its been a long time since i played) So in a canon sort of time-line, Bastilla doesn't always have the amount of skill necessary to do the trick.

I'm fairly certain Bastila is always capable of doing the mind-trick to Motta; it's Revan who can end up failing if you do not have the necessary talents.



Forget Toydarians.

How does it say the Hutt was weak-minded? You're making a trait judgment call on a character which you admittedly remember virtually nothing about. Considering what we know of Motta the Hutt (that he was the prominent Tatooine figurehead) and the Hutt species in general (Force resistance) that's a huge leap of faith with no supplementary evidence.

The Ultimate Alien Anthology, Page 73, on the Hutt entry, states:

" are powerful, ruthless beings who continually seek to expand their boundaries of their dominion Their appetite for power is as insatiable as their appitite for food. Hutts are often found at the center of business and criminal enterprises. Legality (or lack thereof) does not affect whether a Hutt will pursue a venture. All that matters is how much of a benefit - and a profit - one can get from it."

Being as I want to get off quickly, I will just make the contention that there's no indication Motta was weak-willed. In-fact, from what Lurze Kesh and others say on Motta:

"Here on Tatooine we do things Motta's way".

"Bring it to him and you can haggle all you want over the price. Although I should warn you that Motta doesn't like to renegotiate."

"I don't deal with any of that. Motta the Hutt has a lock on everything race related on Tatooine. You deal with him or you don't race."

"You'll have to go through Motta for that. He keeps track of all official standings at this track."

Hutt aside, it seems to me that he would have to possesses great fortitude, intellect, and resolve being an entrepreneurial businessman and considering the above insights.

haha. boba fett die and stay dead? You are a funny funny man ares. Boba fett will become Cade Skywalker. Mark my words.

Giggidy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1rlThKe1qo&feature=related

1:09

That is where I got the idea that Motto has to be weak-minded.


Also, pertinent passages from the Path of Destruction where bane pretty much calls Kaan and everyone else in the brotherhood weakminded for submitting to Kaan.

Bane does not fall for the trick because he isn't weakminded.

yes, that was the quote i was looking for. So we have two G-Canon movies that say they only work on the weak-minded then, right?

Originally posted by truejedi
yes, that was the quote i was looking for. So we have two G-Canon movies that say they only work on the weak-minded then, right?
You are going to take Anakin-who-still-has-a-rat-tail-hair-don't-and-is-trying-to-get-Padme-into-the-sack-Skywalker at his word? Mr. I can overthrow the Emperor?


Really?

actually my link was Kenobi....

but yes, really.

Originally posted by ares834
Do we have anyhting that contradicts it? Or any reason to not believe it?
The fact that he was trying to get into her pants.


You're confusing "G-canon" and "credible source." So, while it is incontrovertible that Anakin said that to Padme, you haven't got anything that speaks to the level of honesty or accuracy of the statement.

He is still a Jedi, or at this point a padawan, and has an extensive knowledge of the force. There really is no reason to believe he is lying nor that the statement is not true. Obviously he isn't the most credible source of information, but he still is a source. There is no reason to discredit it.

There's no reason to disbelieve Anakin at this point about he mind trick, as it's backed up by Kenobi in ANH. But his motive for some poontang is undeniable.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
S_W_Legend could learn a few things from you.
If you happen to go through my debating history, you will notice that I have brought up most of these points at some time in my arguments.

It is all psychological here. Same arguments being repeated by a someone considered to be an exceptional debator is given more credit in these forums. I am familier with most of these sources that Advent have cited.

I find it surprising that she now seems to argue for KoTOR characters after her debating history.

Now that she has decided to debate for these so called virtally unknown characters, some hypocrites have decided to retreat and you are one of them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Same arguments being repeated by a someone considered to be an exceptional debator Are more pleasing to read knowing that person has a half a brain and has the ability to think rationally. And that's what you need to learn; You're not one of those people.

This guy crawled back out from under a rock somewhere? Really?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien Are more pleasing to read knowing that person has a half a brain and has the ability to think rationally. And that's what you need to learn; You're not one of those people.
Advent is renowned for her debating skills. Star Wars might be her forte. How many do you think have the debating skills of her level?

I am done with long lectures on KoTOR a long time ago. People did not wanted to listen and arguments like grenades, mines, medpacks, and other dodgy crapistic comments were thrown in to equation. And you are one of them. So you are no better than those hypocrites who crapped out as soon as Advent jumped in to the matter. Better check your intellectual abilities first before pointing fingures at others. Some people in this thread did had reservations regarding KoTOR characters and they presented them but you (pretender to be a leader of Anti-KoTORism) suddenly decided to retreat. That decides your credibility.

Use the search button if you want to see my debating history. It will also reveal your hypocritical standing on such issues.

Here is just a brief snapshot of my arguments for Bastilla:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Here is a quote for Bastilla Shan:

"Maybe the most heroic Jedi of her time, Bastilla Shan was a Jedi exemplar."

Despite being a Jedi consular, she constructed a double bladed lightsaber. It shows that she paid importance to her skills with lightsaber.

From behind the scenes section in the official databank:

"Armed with a double-bladed lightsaber and equipped with Force abilities available to a Jedi Sentinel, she is a good choice for close-assault combat action."

She also worked with and fought alongside Revan for a long duration during the Jedi Civil War, which would have enhanced her experience.

The fact that the Jedi Council made her part of the Jedi Strike Team which boarded Darth Revan's flagship is a testament to her capabilities as a whole and not just Battle Meditation. Jolee Bindo also recognized her strength.

By the time she embraced the dark side, she said this about her abilities: "I am more powerful than all but few Jedi Masters."

Originally posted by truejedi This guy crawled back out from under a rock somewhere? Really?
And I see you going back to one in this debate.

I didn't bother reading whatever that guy just wrote. He reminds me of someone. Someone I've not felt since...

i still have him on ignore from years ago...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien I didn't bother reading whatever that guy just wrote. He reminds me of someone. Someone I've not felt since...
Hypocrisy at its best.

Same goes for truejedi.

Originally posted by truejedi
i still have him on ignore from years ago... I used to, but after HWKN was banned I felt like being adventurous and emptied my Ignore list.

Don't know why, in retrospect.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I used to, but after HWKN was banned I felt like being adventurous and emptied my Ignore list.

Don't know why, in retrospect.

That is adventurous. I haven't got him on my ignore list in case he ever feels the urge to respond to my arguments.

You're standards are ridiculously high, Slash. No wonder he's not your friend.

Bastila wins, period.

Ignoring any points already addressed,

Originally posted by truejedi
I brought up instant medpacks and force sensing of weapons, because those are things" that exist within the C-Canon world of KOTOR and are attainable" You used that exact quote to call those force powers canon, however, those instant medpacks and force sensing of weapons fit exactly the same category, and are still non-canon as far as we know.

Insta-heal med-packs were never shown in a cutscene. Moves like Force Whirlwind were. Ergo, you've made a faulty analogy, and a logical fallacy.

- To make the analogy even faultier, the quickness of the med-packs is nothing more than a game-play mechanic - you are comparing a game's health mechanism to the Force. I'm sure BioWare would have totally pleased gamers if they could not heal in mid-combat without acquiring (and thus, spending points on) the necessary Force Power. Alright, insta-heal med-packs didn't exist and were attainable, but we know Force Powers existed, therefore there is absolutely no reason that an attainable Force Power in KOTOR would be anything other than mythologically established.

- To make the analogy even faultier and demonstrate that insta-heal med-packs were nothing more than game-play mechanics, med-packs were very mythologically real. Quite obviously, as said, BioWare didn't want the player to die countless times and wanted a means of relief for low health in mid-combat. Rather than portray it true-to-mythos and have the player have to sit and personally unravel a medical kit to stitch invisible wounds and no blood, they opted for insta-heal med-packs.

- To make the analogy confusing, there was no "Weapon Force Sense", as far as I recall. Could you be more clear, please? Are you referring to the loot system, which would qualify for game-play mechanic, too? Or are you talking about Feats, which merely describe a proficiency in X? Either would be nothing more than irrelevant at least, faulty analogy at worst.

As for Slash,

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Everything that is not included in canon at the moment is not canon until it is proven to have actually happened and can then be included in the canon. There is just no in between canon and non canon. Possibly canon is not canon.

That clears the issue up: when I refer to the the word "canon", I am using it interchangeably with the word "mythology". The history of Star Wars, that is. Since an event either happened or it did not in the historical universe (there is no "in-between", anything unknown would be just that: of unascertained canonicity. Your usage of the word is basically "What-We-Know", except that doesn't take into account what we don't know other than to call it "Non-Canon", despite the fact it may very well have mythologically occurred. That's fine. That's not something that I feel the need to debate over.

As for mind tricks and weak minds,

Originally posted by truejedi, ares, Slash KMC, et alii
ADVENT, OLD BEN SAID MIND TRICKS ONLY WORK ON THE WEAK-MINDED, SO MIND TRICKS ONLY WORK ON THE WEAK MINDED. PROVED!

To make this topic short and sweet, first we will define the terms. From the C-Canon Empire at War, the broader description of what a mind-trick is:

"Mind tricks refer to a spectrum of Force powers which influenced the thoughts of sentient creatures."

Clearly, it's merely mind-influence, which is relative. What is relativity?

relative, n.
something having, or standing in, some relation to something else.

"Weak-minded" is relative. To whom are you comparing the mind? Or on what basis is a mind weak? Watch the Episode IV scene again; notice that it's a Master Jedi hermit-crab, who has been meditating upon the Force for practically five decades (virtually two decades straight), and it's a pair of idiotic, non-Force sensitive, non-Force resistant Stormtroopers. That is not proof of anything of other than Kenobi was strong enough to trick those two, which shows nothing aside from relativity. Period.

You're still undecided? That is, anyone. Would you like to know more?

_4Jn_Sq8pvY

During Cad Bane's interrogation in the Clone Wars series, the Jedi decide to attempt a combined mind-trick on him, which prior Obi-Wan admits that "using the Force to compel a strong mind is...risky", not impossible, Mace Windu tacitly agrees with that when he says " his mind could be destroyed". Cad Bane, who Obi-Wan contends is not weak-minded, is on the tip of submitting to the will of the Jedi, but keep in mind the context: the Jedi did not want to hurt him, instead exercising care and caution. Thus, demonstrating relativity.

Would you like to know more? This is ultimately all a mind-trick:

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1554/legacy27019.th.jpg

Notice how Darth Andeddu proclaims "Your mind is no match for mine!", which denotes relatively.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/9346/legacy27020.th.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/653/legacy27021.th.jpg

Oh, shit. Is that Darth "God-King" Andeddu getting killed by Darth Wyyrlok's mind-manipulation? Wait, so Darth Andendu, the Ancient Sith who also influenced Wyyrlok's mind, is weak-minded? So, they're both the lesser of Ahsoka Tano? The argument boils down to reductio ad absurdum, a logical fallacy.

Would you like to know more? Your circumstantial evidence to the contrary consists of what is known as amphiboly (Greek: "indeterminate), a fallacy of ambiguity, for what I detailed earlier in the "Watch Episode IV" bit of my post.

Would you like to know more? The answer: it's factual that the ability to influence minds is based primarily on the strength of mind, training, and Force power ratio of the attacker to the defender.

Would you like to know more?

To the virtual non-issue of Motta the Hutt and Watto,

Let me stress to the both of the two who brought this up, Slash KMC and True Jedi, how insignificant, how minor, how gosh-darn pointless as to whether or not Bastila is going to mop the floor red with Obi-Wan or to establishing Bastila's mind-altering powers, the mind-trick comparison of Motta the Hutt and Shan to Watto and Qui-Gon is.

Stop nitpicking. Contrary to popular belief, throwing a red herring across the tracks will not throw this foxhound off.

I know what you're thinking:

"Did she write a response to the issue or did she write nothing?"

Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kind of lost track myself. But being that this is Advent, the most long-winded arguer on the Versus forum, and would blow your reasoning clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question:

"Do I feel lucky?"

...Well...do ya', punk?

I think their point to the Motta example was the you seemed willing to use ambiguous and wholly unknown situations, a taboo here.

Originally posted by Advent
of unascertained canonicity

Originally posted by Advent

_4Jn_Sq8pvY


Aaaaaah, what the **** is this... This is just aweful, this is terrible, this is completely destroying everything that was once beautiful. C'mon!

The hell... damn this crap.

Originally posted by Advent
To the virtual non-issue of Motta the Hutt and Watto,

Let me stress to the both of the two who brought this up, Slash KMC and True Jedi, how insignificant, how minor, how gosh-darn pointless as to whether or not Bastila is going to mop the floor red with Obi-Wan or to establishing Bastila's mind-altering powers, the mind-trick comparison of Motta the Hutt and Shan to Watto and Qui-Gon is.

Stop nitpicking. Contrary to popular belief, throwing a red herring across the tracks will not throw this foxhound off.

I know what you're thinking:

"Did she write a response to the issue or did she write nothing?"

Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kind of lost track myself. But being that this is Advent, the most long-winded arguer on the Versus forum, and would blow your reasoning clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question:

"Do I feel lucky?"

...Well...do ya', punk?

We're allowed to nitpick, it's what we do. You still haven't proven that any Toydarian can be Force mind controlled. While a Hutt obviously can be, so this seriously makes me question if your comparison is a legit one.

Another reason why the TV show sucks so much ass.

Not the biggest reason though.

Srsly, they're chanting? "Let's combine our Force Powers guys then we can also form the Mega Zord and destroy our foes!!"

I'm pretty sure that Zordon is actually Obi-Wan Kenobi.

No, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace are all rangers. If I were good with photoshop, I'd put morphers in their hands:

1:15 "Mastodont!"

1:20 "Triceratops!"

1:26 "Tyranosaurus!"

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
No, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace are all rangers. If I were good with photoshop, I'd put morphers in their hands:

1:15 "Mastodont!"

1:20 "Triceratops!"

1:26 "Tyranosaurus!" Which one's the racist Jedi?

Originally posted by Advent

It is therefore a safe and logical assumption to make that Bastila would be more than capable of mangling someone like Obi-Wan "Got-Pwned-With-A-Flick-Of-The-Wrist" Kenobi with any of the aforementioned powers she knows , assuming she had the proper training with them, leading to my second point.


Even though I'm not taking sides yet I must say to Obi-Wan's defense that it was Dooku who did Flick-Of-The-Wrist. But from the looks of your great admiration for Bastila I bet you also think she could beat Dooku, right?

If she can defeat Dooku, and because Revan is more powerful than Bastila, I can only conclude that Revan is very high on the "most powerful Force user" list.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which one's the racist Jedi?

Good stuff! I guess I should've made Mace the black ranger.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Even though I'm not taking sides yet I must say to Obi-Wan's defense that it was Dooku who did Flick-Of-The-Wrist. But from the looks of your great admiration for Bastila I bet you also think she could beat Dooku, right?

If she can defeat Dooku, and because Revan is more powerful than Bastila, I can only conclude that Revan is very high on the "most powerful Force user" list. The highest!

Originally posted by Advent
Foremost, yes, we are totally agreed that powers like telekinesis and mind-influence are the base from which their various applications stem from and the RPG names are merely describing said application of the Force. We also agree that, for some usages of the Force, such as utilizing rage to fuel yourself, do not necessarily need to be learned (although, to be effectively controlled, it certainly would require experience; trained or in the field).


gooooood everything is proceeding as I had forseen. (though your cowardly side-kick, DE has vanished, leaving his posts undefended, and therefore debunked)



However, what I firmly disagreed upon is two-fold:


You overstep here Advent, and you rarely do, so it is necessary to point it out. You just asked me to prove a that Kenobi can defend against Bastilla. You, however, have not proven that Bastilla is of comparable power to.... ANYONE. We know Kenobi can defend against Skywalker (whether or not his power was weakened when Kenobi did is irrelevant, you haven't proven Bastilla is even with even a weakened Skywalker)

Your relationship of the power between attacker and defender has to automatically favor Bastilla, or else your argument doesn't help her at all.

However, you have established no such lop-sided relationship. I would argue that in the force, Kenobi has more canon feats than Bastilla does. Her displayed feats are next to nothing, so we have no idea what the quality of her (granted, proven) various exotic attacks are.




This is definitly a straw-man. If I bought it, i would be arguing that Kenobi could fight Yoda's force power, and you would trounce me in such a discussion.

However: Yoda >>>>>Bastilla. You haven't established any sort of power level to concretely say that Bastilla is at all more powerful than Kenobi in the force. Once again, actual demonstrated ability seems to favor Kenobi.



No, you absolutely MUST establish that Bastilla is Kenobi's equal in the force, something you haven't done yet. Knowing a technique is not the same as being stronger than a Jedi Council Member in the Golden Age of the Jedi, not by a LOOOOOOONNNG shot. You have, and I Give you that much, established that Bastilla knew how to manipulate the force in ways that proves her competent. It does not, however, prove her at a higher level than a high-end Jedi master. That, you still need to bring to the table. I, with no small knowledge of Star Wars myself, happen to believe such evidence does not exist. If you can bring it, bring it, and I'll change my mind.


We just addressed the fact that she is using TK in most of her attacks, and various mind attacks in others. Considering the clip you just posted shows Kenobi is familiar with mental attacks, and he obviously is familiar with TK, there is ZERO reason to believe he would "submit". He might lose, who really knows (because we don't have an established power level of Bastilla) but he will not submit without a fight unless you state he must in your OP.



You really haven't shown that yet Advent.


(several more posts to follow...)

This i'm fine with, as long as you don't act like every attack is some exotic thing Kenobi has never heard of. You are describing(with your Force Rage, and your Force Plague, and Your Force Wave) variations of actions he is perfectly familiar with.




Obviously. And Once again, by your own clip, the fact that 3 high-end Jedi and one talented Padawan failed to immediately overpower the mind of a single non-force sensitive tells me that Bastilla is going to have be on a ridiculously high level of force power compared to Kenobi to succeed with a mental attack. You have established no such superiority.





So you are going to use Shan's special gift as proof that her force-ability is far beyond Kenobi's? Mace Windu knowing(being born with) shatterpoint whereas (as far as we know) Yoda did not , absolutey did not mean Mace is superior to Yoda.

Bastilla Shan did not control the minds of everyone on the battlefield. That is a ridiculous stretch. Affect their minds through a gift that she was born with, and no one else had, yes, CONTROL their minds? Mind control is what Exar Kun did to Gantoris. Battle-meld/meditation is not nearly the same thing, as shown by Caedus in LOTF.



Allow me to bold the important words there:


Usually is a good word, and WIZENED means obviously this statement didn't apply in Bastilla's case. Bastilla was obviously NOT wizened.




I would ALMOST agree with you, until, as you pointed out, she was sent on a strike team to take out revan. So maybe not.



Now maybe i'm wrong, and if so, please correct me, but wasn't REVAN the one responsible for that force-bond?



Having no idea if Motta is weak-minded or not... Having no idea if Jolee(Jedi in exile) OR Juhani (was ANOTHER padawan....) had any force-ability to speak of... Besides which, if Juhani was killed by Revan, then she isn't on Lehon in the first place... Light-side ENDING is canon, gameplay is completely up to the player.

The empire without Revan and without the many many sith he had already killed. (possibly she was weaker than Bandon...)
I have no problem calling her one of the strongest users of the era... just the entire era is suspect. Revan seems to be head and shoulders above the rest.


Wait.... "she knows"

Take that back. That is terrible logic. I give you permission to withdraw it. Knowing something is not quantifying someone's ability with it. The words mean two different things. (every word has a definition, as you have pointed out already)

Dismiss Kenobi if you will. And he was beaten by Dooku with the force. However, to compare Bastilla to Dooku is really asking for a lot of blind faith from us, your faithful readers.



I have to cut you off right there. Please provide proof of that. From the second you lose Bastilla, everything in the game is about getting up to that star forge and getting her back. I could see it only taking a few days. Revan, clearly obsessed with getting back a border-line love interest, needs only a hyperspace journey, a quick trip to a temple , and then a short flight to the star forge. Where did you find weeks? Once again, if you source it, I withdraw that point.

2nd, Reasonable? I agree completely. Everything you are saying about Bastilla is perfectly reasonable, and I even agree with most of it, in principle. However, this is KMC, and here, reasonable isn't good enough. You have to prove it.

Character with proof>Character with Reason, EVERY TIME

Originally posted by truejedi
2nd, Reasonable? I agree completely. Everything you are saying about Bastilla is perfectly reasonable, and I even agree with most of it, in principle. However, this is KMC, and here, reasonable isn't good enough. You have to prove it. Oh, God, can you imagine if it was? It used to be, with the Antes. Thank God for the Enlightenment.



It's "Lehon" BTW.

fixed! and that would be fun... but a different kind of fun... It would feel less-intellecual somehow. It would turn into a game of "let's suppose." and everyone's opinions would be perfectly valid... and you know what? Its kinda making me sick just thinking about it.

(con't...)

Originally posted by Advent
First, in accordance with the stance taken, all mind-affecting powers are ultimately based on the applier's mind compared to the target's - willpower, training, and strength in the Force all must be taken into account. So,

because her Sith powers (Grip, Plague, Breach, Stasis Field, Insanity) are mental-based, and

because "through sheer force of will could influence the course of massive battles...bolstering the courage of one side...while draining the other", which means having control over the psyche of thousands upon thousands of Jedi and Sith, Dark Jedi, mercenaries, officers and troopers on both sides, and

because "Jedi Battle Meditation a rare ability usually only accessible to the most skilled and wizened Jedi Masters" Bastila Shan],

it is obvious that Shan's training was extensively focused on influencing the mind of another,

which her feats demonstrate: BM, her ability to create Force Bonds - such as the one linking her life-force to Darth Revan, the only thing keeping him alive, dominating Motta the Hutt's mind, simultaneously Force Stunning Jolee Bindo and Juhani, and

because she was one of the strongest Force users of the era; undeniably, the second strongest Sith in the entire battle-hardened, power-obsessed Empire,

It is therefore a safe and logical assumption to make that Bastila would be more than capable of mangling someone like Obi-Wan "Got-Pwned-With-A-Flick-Of-The-Wrist" Kenobi with any of the aforementioned powers she knows , assuming she had the proper training with them, leading to my second point.

Second, the above taken into consideration, it is reasonable to conclude that Bastila would have the proper training in the techniques described: (1) ipso facto, she could actively perform them in combat, (2) considering Bastila's prodigious learning capabilities, combined with the fact that - at the very least - she spent several weeks of formal training under Malak, an established Dark Lord of the Sith with an implicit familiarity with these moves and a specific intent for wanting her to learn as much as possible - Revan - which gives us a rational reason for the variety of moves taught, and (3) in the case of virtually all her new-found powers (e.g., Grip, Plague, Stasis Field, and Insanity), she had already been familiar with the derivative moves from which the powers stemmed (Grip: TK, Plague: Slow, Stasis Field: Stun, Insanity: Dominate Mind).

^ I am sorry, but you have not provided a single shred of evidence - for anything, FFS! I have - for everything.

Do you even understand what a strawman argument is? I ask, as I neither made one, however you did in the very same post you accused me of!

Your words,

Originally posted by truejedi
Yes, they use the force to create a whirlwind, sure, but it is still just TK. So i don't deny the ability, just the pokemon name and the fact that such an attack would be so utterly unknown to Kenobi that he couldn't counter it. It is just TK after all.

Originally posted by truejedi
Kenobi doesn't "know force wave" as you put it. He simply uses the force to push anakin. Therefore a "force-whirlwind" isn't going to be completely strange to him, since he is aware of force TK attacks.

...which never specifically apply to Bastila.

My reply,

Originally posted by Advent
While it may be that he has the possible defenses to keep himself from harm from someone else's TK, knowledge does not equal defense if your opponent is stronger than you (or if you're overwhelmed). It is relative - the relationship of power between the attacker to the defender or vice versa.

For example, Kenobi could be Force Pushed by Yoda because any defenses would be over-powered. Thus, your assertion of Kenobi countering is a non sequitur.

This is not definitely not a strawman. I was merely using Yoda as an example to demonstrate relativity and how spastic the line of reasoning that was being used in your argument was.

In other words, you are committing a fallacy of improper attribution for an inability to read your own statements. I have to wonder if you are actually drunk at this point.

My mountains of evidence trump your naked assertions and unfounded assumptions. They have from the very beginning. They will until the end. Thus,

Q.E.D.

I feel the need to be blunt here with you, as well as Slash KMC, because both of your arguments - on literally every issue - have been terribly illogical, and demonstrably so. I have to be upfront and tell you that, because this is dragging on for no reason other than sheer stubbornness on your behalves to accept something more than "CANON SEZ!".

Originally posted by Advent


- To make the analogy even faultier, the quickness of the med-packs is nothing more than a game-play mechanic - you are comparing a game's health mechanism to the Force. I'm sure BioWare would have totally pleased gamers if they could not heal in mid-combat without acquiring (and thus, spending points on) the necessary Force Power. Alright, insta-heal med-packs didn't exist and were attainable, but we know Force Powers existed, therefore there is absolutely no reason that an attainable Force Power in KOTOR would be anything other than mythologically established.


But we have indeed established that simply because something is in the game and isn't directly contradicted elsewhere, doesn't make it canon. You tried to call it C-Canon, simply for being in the game, previously, and that is incorrect. Faulty Analogy or not, I think I have taken the only point I wanted too with this direction of the argument.



Calling one the force, and one a mechanic is a blurry line, since one of the force "moves" in the game was to heal yourself in combat. You could instantly restore life to yourself with the force. If the game-maker gave you THAT ability (which is pretty close to canon as far as I can tell) why bother to create a game-play mechanic to address something that is ALREADY addressed within canon? seems kinda like maybe they intended BOTH things to be an option, and therefore that would mean:

A. Either the force heal AND the medpack were gameplay mechanics and therefore non-canon.

or.

B. Neither the force heal OR the medpack were gameplay mechanics and are therefore canon.




Jedi Knight and Jedi Academy. Games that are exactly as Canon as KOTOR. Allowing the force attacks in KOTOR as real means everything from every video game is also canon. Therefore everything from every video game is now admissable to DISPROVE the canonicity of said game-play mechanics.




Why? Because you say so? Advent, why are YOU getting to be the "decider" of what is a game-play mechanic and what is C-Canon? Seems to me like oh... anyone else might have a different opinion.





So... You need to come up with a pretty airtight argument that Bastilla is >>>>>>> Kenobi in the force before her mental attacks are going to render Kenobi "relatively weakminded", amirite?



Yes, here we see one non-force resistant, non-force sensitive fight off the combined powers of four powerful Jedi. He then agrees to do what they want, not because his mind has been defeated, but because he "has had enough of that."



So Bastilla is on the same level as Wyyrlok now? She just keeps getting better and better.



So... not one, BUT TWO quotes from G-canon movies are now considered circumstantial evidence? The bar get raised around here while I wasn't paying attention?


Interestingly enough, I agree with you on your main point. Weak-minded IS relative. Its just the sort of thing that the word relative was invented for. However, for you to try to insinuate that Kenobi is weak-minded compared to Bastilla is unsupported at the moment. You are welcome to continue to try.

Advent, you clearly MUST provide evidence, and we need not too, because you are attacking a KNOWN character with an UNKNOWN. that's the point. We dont' need to defend Kenobi. He is completely established. You are getting closer to successfully arguing for an unknown than anyone ever has gotten on this forum.

To say that because we go over your evidence, and refuse to accept your assumptions make our argument devoid of proof is stupid.

You can do better.

Do it.

Until you actually defend against my post however, your current argument (whether or not you repost it) stands countered.

If canon doesn't say, then it is your opinion. So yes, we will continue to wait for evidence where "CANON SEZ" the words that back up your current opinion on the matter.

Now i'm not going to get caught up in name-calling, and attacking someone else as illogical. I will continue to counter your posts in a professional manner. If my post frustrates you to the point of being unable to continue, then please, don't, I don't want to cause you any undo stress.

Remember, you saying you win, and the other person is illogical only makes it true for you. (especially when you went back to your ORIGINAL post for your QED, meaning you are completely convinced that your entire post from the beginning is 100% correct, and no one has touched it.)

An arrogant position.

Barely skimming through that mess, because it's almost 4:00 AM,

Originally posted by truejedi
So Bastilla is on the same level as Wyyrlok now? She just keeps getting better and better.

Did you not, literally, a post ago, claim knowledge of a strawman argument, a logical fallacy (I know you didn't understand it obviously)?

This is one of those.

Again.

I only used Wyyrlok-Andeddu as an example to demonstrate relativity, which is obvious to anyone not under the influence of an intoxicating substance.

Nice reading comprehension, and it tells me you really understand my argument or "the direction to which you're taking it", huh, mastermind?

I appreciate the effort, but refusal to accept sound arguments does not make them false.

Originally posted by Advent
I have to be upfront and tell you that, because this is dragging on for no reason other than sheer stubbornness on your behalves to accept something more than "CANON SEZ!". Oh. yeah... 'bout that...

That's, kinda what we're all about. Actually...

Originally posted by truejedi
Advent, you clearly MUST provide evidence, and we need not too, because you are attacking a KNOWN character with an UNKNOWN. that's the point. We dont' need to defend Kenobi. He is completely established.

Originally posted by Advent
Moreover, Bastila Shan is not an unknown any more than most other characters used in the Versus forum. "BUT ADVENT, WE DON'T KNOW THESE THINGS ABOUT X!" - you're right, this is where we reasonably and logically deduce from established facts to create a platform base on which to argue from. We do know enough about Bastila to make inferences about her talents, and if one is incapable of deriving conclusions (whether sound or not) from the information available, an unknown that makes one not, but a known nincompoop.

Burden of proof is a logical fallacy (the onus is on you to provide evidence for Kenobi's power; Bastila's strength has been "established", especially in this thread)

Begging the question, logical fallacy (Kenobi is established, so he doesn't need defense? So almost all threads involving a "known" need no posts?).

You're drunk. Go to sleep.

Originally posted by Advent
Begging the question, logical fallacy (Kenobi is established, so he doesn't need defense? So almost all threads involving a "known" need no posts?).

You're drunk. Go to sleep. That's a little out of context. We know he was referring to Kenobi's mastery of Soresu and his given ability to deflect Anakin's Force push. His defences are known and need no more study. Bastila does.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh. yeah... 'bout that...

That's, kinda what we're all about. Actually...

Everything I have argued has a canonical base to it, so...yeah what 'bout that? The point is, I use my brain and try to make rational inferences based on the information available; which is perfectly acceptable. You guys pretty much take any phrase or sentence from a source at its word without taking it into any context whatsoever or critical thought applied to.

And thus, all the hullabaloo.

Originally posted by Advent


Begging the question, logical fallacy (Kenobi is established, so he doesn't need defense? So almost all threads involving a "known" need no posts?).



If you hadn't notice, we've been doing this for YEARS, so yes. Most posts involving knowns (especially well-knowns like Kenobi) are pretty much consensus picks, because everyone who has spent much time on this forum DOES KNOW everything Kenobi has been proven to be capable of (The CWC's and the books about Ahsoka are slowly updating Kenobi)

We certainly aren't doing Kenobi vs. Yoda are we? we know them both, we know Yoda wins. Done.

That thread, with two knowns needs absolutely no discussion.

And that is true in almost all situations where you put in two of the very well-knowns like Kenobi is.

I'm not drunk, but you are sounding sleep-deprived. Take your time with your next post, you seem to be making snap-decisions at the moment.