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vs

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Team 1. DD isn't quite on par with these guys.

Team 1 shang isn't on par with these guys feat wise anyway.

the guys get their arses beat

Team 1 6,5/10 if it's Cassandra Cain

Team 2 8/10 if it's any other girl than her

Originally posted by thanos-prime
Team 1 shang isn't on par with these guys feat wise anyway.

Agreed. Shang is probably the most dangerous regular martial artist in MU.

Team 2 for a pretty healthy majority.

shang is good but not shiva good.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
shang is good but not shiva good.



He's more skilled than Shiva, physically superior and he has substantial chi-amping.

The whole physical superiority thing is contrived and based on gender. Gender doesn't mean shit in comics.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


He's more skilled than Shiva, physically superior and he has substantial chi-amping. You think every Marvel MA is>Shiva though.

Originally posted by Konton
The whole physical superiority thing is contrived and based on gender. Gender doesn't mean shit in comics.

Yea, this is true. Shiva punches through people's skulls and has broken Killer Croc's arm and Cass's kicked through multiple inches of bulletproof glass and snapped swords with a knife-hand (as well as a bunch of other fairly impressive impact feats). They manage.

the point stands, scientifically, a normal female is generally not as strong as a normal male. both shiva and shang are normal humans.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
the point stands, scientifically, a normal female is generally not as strong as a normal male. both shiva and shang are normal humans.

They are?

And statistics are useful for examining groups, not really individuals.

im just saying its not too far fetched to assume a fit male is stronger than a fit female

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
im just saying its not too far fetched to assume a fit male is stronger than a fit female


It's a reasonable starting assumption before you get any additional data, but in comic it holds less true, and even more-so when you have people who have pretty crazy strength feats. "High-end comic martial artists" overrides other factors.

Originally posted by Konton
The whole physical superiority thing is contrived and based on gender. Gender doesn't mean shit in comics.

They aren't physically inferior because they are women, they are physically inferior because they are physically inferior... the fact that they are women is just a happy coincidence.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, this is true. Shiva punches through people's skulls and has broken Killer Croc's arm and Cass's kicked through multiple inches of bulletproof glass and snapped swords with a knife-hand (as well as a bunch of other fairly impressive impact feats). They manage.

Croc is a sometimes bullet proof, class 2... that is isn't the impressive feat you seem to think it is. It's not like Croc is the Lizard... he isn't even that loser Bullet who Daredevil smacks around.

Everything else is pretty much middle of the road standard street level fodder.

Team 2. Daredevil could take a good majority against Shiva or BG. Add Shang Chi and these gals go down.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Croc is a sometimes bullet proof, class 2... that is isn't the impressive feat you seem to think it is. It's not like Croc is the Lizard... he isn't even that loser Bullet who Daredevil smacks around.

I'm not talking about the fact that she beat him as impressive. She casually broke his arm without apparent effort, Croc has some seriously thick bones and muscles. That's some nice strength.




Really? It's not often I see people punch so hard their knuckles can be seen outside the back of someone's skull. Or in Cass's case, knock out a person who Batman specifically said "hit hard enough to crush a normal person's skull" to knock out.

That strikes me as fairly high-street stuff, definitely non-fodder.

breaking his arm isnt str, its applying force to the right location to create leverage. theres a quote that says "with the right amount of leverage i could lift the world"

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
breaking his arm isnt str, its applying force to the right location to create leverage. theres a quote that says "with the right amount of leverage i could lift the world"

How is it leverage when it's just hitting? Leverage happens when you grab and bend or have something to bend with, she punched and kicked.

She even says it's a comminuted injury (that is, the bone is crushed). Also looking at the page, Shiva mentioned three injuries: Greenstick fracture on one leg (fracture that doesn't go all the way through), and comminuted on both the other leg and arm.


Now Croc is a lot less able to roll with or evade an injury than anyone here, which can lessen damage significantly, but in terms of raw toughness he's still going to have much larger, tougher, and better protected bones.

Team 1.

Originally posted by Konton
Team 1. DD isn't quite on par with these guys.

Read more Daredevil.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, this is true. Shiva punches through people's skulls and has broken Killer Croc's arm and Cass's kicked through multiple inches of bulletproof glass and snapped swords with a knife-hand (as well as a bunch of other fairly impressive impact feats). They manage.

I'm leaning towards Team 2, but would love to see a scan of Lady Shiva accomplishing this feat against Killer Croc (if you have one available).

Originally posted by Juk3n
Read more Daredevil.

I read all Daredevil.

Originally posted by Konton
I read all Daredevil.

Originally posted by Konton
Team 1. DD isn't quite on par with these guys.

Really?

What particular H2H combat catagory is DD not on par with Shiva?

you must answer with a straite face..

I bet Shang is grateful he's on DD's team and not BG or Shiva after what DD did to him.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1282333615

Originally posted by Daredevil1
I bet Shang is grateful he's on DD's team and not BG or Shiva after what DD did to him.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1282333615

Oh shit DDs eyes are glowing. Team Fing 2 FTW.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
I bet Shang is grateful he's on DD's team and not BG or Shiva after what DD did to him.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1282333615

Shang-Chi being owned by Daredevil? Wow! Considering Shang-Chi's previous feats, I'm disappointed.

I'm not considering all of DD previous feats the guy is a nightmare for anyone of his peers.

Originally posted by Magneto1982
Shang-Chi being owned by Daredevil? Wow! Considering Shang-Chi's previous feats, I'm disappointed.

DD obvoulsy has had an upgrade.

He's just been holding back all these years, right now during Shadowland, is his NORMAL operating level.

Originally posted by Magneto1982
I'm leaning towards Team 2, but would love to see a scan of Lady Shiva accomplishing this feat against Killer Croc (if you have one available).

Hm, I don't, the respect thread doesn't seem to have it yet.


Also, we don't really get to see the fight. It was when Shiva was with the Birds of Prey and Croc was sent after Crime Doctor, in the Perfect Pitch trade.

They did a brief clash, Croc gloated, then Shiva said, "The first hit was just to see how fast you process pain. Pretty slow- I inflicted three wounds you didn't even notice yet." Croc- "Oh, this is going to suck." *Collapses as the effects hit him*

So a bit of a speed feat in the not-even-notice department. Shiva looked to be doing it with one hand behind her back too.

Originally posted by Magneto1982
Shang-Chi being owned by Daredevil? Wow! Considering Shang-Chi's previous feats, I'm disappointed.

DD is currently possessed by a demon (possibly the Beast, but I'm not sure) that is allegedly more powerful than Ghost Rider.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm not talking about the fact that she beat him as impressive. She casually broke his arm without apparent effort, Croc has some seriously thick bones and muscles. That's some nice strength.




Really? It's not often I see people punch so hard their knuckles can be seen outside the back of someone's skull. Or in Cass's case, knock out a person who Batman specifically said "hit hard enough to crush a normal person's skull" to knock out.

That strikes me as fairly high-street stuff, definitely non-fodder.

You are over estimating Croc's durability, like I said earlier, he is a sometimes bullet proof, class two.

The Leopard Blow isn't a strength feat, it is a skill feat (that several other DC U MAs are stated to know fyi), and on a pure math stand point the PSI needed to crush a human skull isn't even that high, some real life heavy weight boxers technically can punch hard enough to do it.

Originally posted by Konton
The whole physical superiority thing is contrived and based on gender. Gender doesn't mean shit in comics.

Agreed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You are over estimating Croc's durability, like I said earlier, he is a sometimes bullet proof, class two.

Yea, that's *more* than a human. A lot more. Crushing the bones of someone like that is impressive, and more durability than any human foe will have.

So I'm not sure how that's supposed to go against what I'm saying.




No, no heavyweight boxer comes close to strong enough. Cracking the skull maybe, but not the kind of damage she does (part of which is the way a skull is shaped, round is great for distributing impact). Also it's penetrating the skull twice- on the way in and out.

I think the only others who know it are Batman, Richard Dragon, and Cass... and at the least no-one who's not crazy-high level can do it.

team 2.

Once again, there's no realistic shot of anyone who isn't Meta, beating DD in a forum fight.

Originally posted by marwash22
team 2.

Once again, there's no realistic shot of anyone who isn't Meta, beating DD in a forum fight.


Cass is "I can't believe it's not meta," and if Shiva can handle Shang I can still see the first team winning.


I don't think either of these two teams has a sure thing, it'll be bitterly hard fought either way and probably even the winner will lose at least one.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, that's *more* than a human. A lot more. Crushing the bones of someone like that is impressive, and more durability than any human foe will have.

So I'm not sure how that's supposed to go against what I'm saying.




No, no heavyweight boxer comes close to strong enough. Cracking the skull maybe, but not the kind of damage she does (part of which is the way a skull is shaped, round is great for distributing impact). Also it's penetrating the skull twice- on the way in and out.

I think the only others who know it are Batman, Richard Dragon, and Cass... and at the least no-one who's not crazy-high level can do it.

It takes less than 100 PSI to fracture a skull, and some real world heavy weights can punch upwards of 1800 PSI... there is just more to it than a pure numbers game. When you are standing up and get punched your body can move with the force of punch so it isn't as devastating, but that doesn't change the fact that punch is still technically strong enough to crush a human skull on paper. If you stood up against a wall with the back of your skull firmly supported and took a direct punch to the face from Mike Tyson, his fist would be insider your head.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
DD is currently possessed by a demon (possibly the Beast, but I'm not sure) that is allegedly more powerful than Ghost Rider. Yes but notice his eye's weren't glowing until he went to face iron fist so im think the demon may have just emerged.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It takes less than 100 PSI to fracture a skull, and some real world heavy weights can punch upwards of 1800 PSI... there is just more to it than a pure numbers game. When you are standing up and get punched your body can move with the force of punch so it isn't as devastating, but that doesn't change the fact that punch is still technically strong enough to crush a human skull on paper. If you stood up against a wall with the back of your skull firmly supported and took a direct punch to the face from Mike Tyson, his fist would be insider your head.

Yes, if it's braced that's one thing but keep in mind we are not talking about a braced skull in these examples, those nice shock-absorbant necks have been free to move, and penetrating/crushing also requires a lot more force than fracturing, penetrating twice even more-so.



We're talking about multiple crushed (not just fractured) bones done on a non-braced standing superhuman target in a few moments with the Croc example.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, if it's braced that's one thing but keep in mind we are not talking about a braced skull in these examples, those nice shock-absorbant necks have been free to move, and penetrating/crushing also requires a lot more force than fracturing, penetrating twice even more-so.



We're talking about multiple crushed (not just fractured) bones done on a non-braced standing superhuman target in a few moments with the Croc example.

My point remains, punching hard enough to crush a human skull and actually crushing a human skull with a punch are two completely different things. As I've said plenty of boxers can punch that hard on paper, it's just that far more factors into accomplishing such a feat then the force of the punch. Batgirl didn't crush a skull with her punch, she just punched hard enough to do it... which is something that is humanly possible. The only thing that feat proves is that Cass can punch with equal or greater force as a heavy weight boxer (which I don't think anyone ever really doubted), but that isn't an indication of super strength.

The Leapord's Blow is a skill feat, not a strength feat... and since it is just a long punch strike with the foreknuckles, durability is a far greater factor than strength even if we completely ignore the skill aspect.

I think you severely over estimate the durability of the human body. It doesn't take much to break a bone and Croc is only marginally superhuman.

Originally posted by marwash22
team 2.

Once again, there's no realistic shot of anyone who isn't Meta, beating DD in a forum fight.


You think that Batman has no chance of beating him? You sad little man. I can understand someone believing that Daredevil would take Batman for a majority (I don't agree with it, but I can understand it) but I don't see how you can say that Daredevil would beat Batman 10/10.

Originally posted by Omega Vision


You think that Batman has no chance of beating him? You sad little man. I can understand someone believing that Daredevil would take Batman for a majority (I don't agree with it, but I can understand it) but I don't see how you can say that Daredevil would beat Batman 10/10. Not at this point no but when snakeroot fully emerges i think he will be an uberbeast maybe in the mid range.

Originally posted by Omega Vision


You think that Batman has no chance of beating him? You sad little man. I can understand someone believing that Daredevil would take Batman for a majority (I don't agree with it, but I can understand it) but I don't see how you can say that Daredevil would beat Batman 10/10. when did i say 10/10? Even if it's 6/10 in DD's favor, that's still a win, therefore, my statement holds up.

Originally posted by Omega Vision


You think that Batman has no chance of beating him? You sad little man. I can understand someone believing that Daredevil would take Batman for a majority (I don't agree with it, but I can understand it) but I don't see how you can say that Daredevil would beat Batman 10/10.

I think he just means for the majority.

Originally posted by marwash22
when did i say 10/10? Even if it's 6/10 in DD's favor, that's still a win, therefore, my statement holds up.
"Having no chance" seems fairly unequivocal. My advice to you is to phrase things better in the future so you don't sound like Srank.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
"Having no chance" seems fairly unequivocal. My advice to you is to phrase things better in the future so you don't sound like Srank.

You don't want him to sound like he knows what he is talking about? That seems like odd advice.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only thing that feat proves is that Cass can punch with equal or greater force as a heavy weight boxer (which I don't think anyone ever really doubted), but that isn't an indication of super strength.

I'll grant that one (though I would bet a fair number of people didn't know Cass could hit as hard or harder than a heavy weight boxer), but it's still reasonably impressive.



It is a skill feat that requires lots of strength/speed.




Class 2ish and semi-bulletproof is still pretty significantly above a human, especially when we're talking someone his size, Croc's bones are likely twice or more as thick as a normal human's. To do those wounds with attacks small enough to go unseen... that's impressive.



The point is, a normal human's durability doesn't help out a ton against Cass and Shiva, it only aids against glancing blows and rolled-with blows since direct hits are dangerous enough that it hardly matters the difference between one human's toughness and the next.

Originally posted by Q99
The point is, a normal human's durability doesn't help out a ton against Cass and Shiva, it only aids against glancing blows and rolled-with blows since direct hits are dangerous enough that it hardly matters the difference between one human's toughness and the next.

Well, to be fair human durability doesn't help out a ton even against people who don't begin to compare to Shiva and Cass. If you get caught by surprise and eat a direct hit from anyone who knows how to throw a punch, you are going to go down. Glancing blows and rolled with punches are what keep streets alive.

Lady Shiva with her record of late is probably the down fall of this team.

Her rep of being the best has been destroyed with never being able to clearly defeat Batman, with losing to Cass twice, and getting owned by Prom in 3 seconds. Batman even beat her a third time.(yeah she was mind controlled but Batman stalemated her twice before so it really doesn't help her case since we don't know the affects and since Bruce stalemated her twice.........yeah its definitely plausible.)

The way I see it Daredevil stalemates Shiva(like Bruce has) While Shang takes out BG. If DD's not done then Shang and DD take out Shiva together.

But something tells me DD takes Shiva out too.

Shiva might be getting an upgrade.