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fight to the death. hahahaha.

Sion begins to eat Durge. Peic eby piece.

but durge wouldn't be dead. you can't kill durge by such a simple tactic as eating him.

Originally posted by truejedi
but durge wouldn't be dead. you can't kill durge by such a simple tactic as eating him. It might take a while, but yes you can.

Durge poopi isnt dangeroud Durge.

he can form back up in the stomach and explode sion from the inside out fo shoz.

Depends on where they are. But usually Durge. Sion's imortality is dependant on where he is. On places such as Malachor V he is nearly immortal due to the massive amount of dark energies allowing hims to resurect himself again and again.

Sion wins.

Stalemate.

Shut your black mouth.

Shut your... white mouth.

Shut your blue mouth.

Originally posted by ares834 Depends on where they are. But usually Durge. Sion's imortality is dependant on where he is. On places such as Malachor V he is nearly immortal due to the massive amount of dark energies allowing hims to resurect himself again and again.
His immortality comes from his pain tolerance and endless concentration on the rage that festers inside him.

Furthermore;

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times but always ending more enemy lives.

Off-course, a place filled with dark side energies would present an ideal environment for the dark lord but Sion's immortality is certainly not restricted to such places.

Source that confirms his invincibility away from a dark side nexus. Source that states he could do so in... the Jedi Temple.

I presented information from KoTOR Campaign Guide.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His immortality comes from his pain tolerance and endless concentration on the rage that festers inside him.

Furthermore;

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times but always ending more enemy lives.

Off-course, a place filled with dark side energies would present an ideal environment for the dark lord but Sion's immortality is certainly not restricted to such places.
Prove that any of these planets Sion died on were not a dark side nexus. Here is the proof for his recarnation ability only really working on a planet full of dark side energies.

Exile: I will not run from that corpse.
Kreia: There will be another time. Not now, not here, while Korriban runs through him

and later on on Malachor V.

Sion: As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I can not be killed.

These quotes clearly show that it is on worlds strong in the dark side that he has this power. As Kreia claims he can be defeaed on Korriban suggesting that at other places he can be, and Sion himself states it is Malachor V's power that allows him to keep himslef alive. Sure he may be able to preform it on other planets, but not as often. Heck, even on Malachor V he is not completlley invincible.

After being told he is weakening.
Sion: I... I still have the power to stop you. The Force runs strong through the screaming canyons of Malachor.

Then the next time you defeat him, he is on his hands and knees rather than standing clearly he is weakening even though he is drawing upon the dark power on Malachor.

Ares, don't bring up a logical argument. That kind of talk won't earn you any responses.

No, he'll just ignore it, leave for a few months and then come back remembering nothing we taught him.

If he ever learns at all.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
No, he'll just ignore it, leave for a few months and then come back remembering nothing we taught him.

This is his MO.

Originally posted by ares834 Prove that any of these planets Sion died on were not a dark side nexus. Here is the proof for his recarnation ability only really working on a planet full of dark side energies.

Exile: I will not run from that corpse.
Kreia: There will be another time. Not now, not here, while Korriban runs through him

and later on on Malachor V.

Sion: As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I can not be killed.

These quotes clearly show that it is on worlds strong in the dark side that he has this power. As Kreia claims he can be defeaed on Korriban suggesting that at other places he can be, and Sion himself states it is Malachor V's power that allows him to keep himslef alive. Sure he may be able to preform it on other planets, but not as often. Heck, even on Malachor V he is not completlley invincible.

After being told he is weakening.
Sion: I... I still have the power to stop you. The Force runs strong through the screaming canyons of Malachor.

Then the next time you defeat him, he is on his hands and knees rather than standing clearly he is weakening even though he is drawing upon the dark power on Malachor.
Did you played as male or female? Sion will die in both cases. However, canonical path is female and in this playthrough, the main reason for his downfall is this:

When he first set after her, Sion thought the Exile to be broken and incapable of stopping the onslaught of the Sith. Her death, as what he believed to be the last of the Jedi, would herald the victory of the Sith. As he continued to pursue her, though, a new feeling towards her stirred in Sion, something beyond respect or admiration, and an emotion that he loathed. He thought her beautiful, and his hatred diminished with these emotions, threatening his grip on life. (from Wookieepedia)

All concerned sources imply that a woman (i.e. Jedi Exile) caused a strange emotional reaction within Sion, which led to his downfall:

One Jedi especially gets underneath Sion's decrepit skin. The Jedi Exile proves remarkably resilient. Sion feels an alien feeling bud within him: not respect for female jedi, not admiration, but an emotion quite intolerable. It causes his intense hatred to flag, threatening his tenuous hold on life, so Sion decides to destroy the woman responsible for this weakness. However, in their final confrontation, the Jedi Exile convinces the Dark Lord to release himself from his enslaving hatred. Rage and life flee Sion simultaneously, his undead body finally yielding to absolute necrosis. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

Other enemies that Sion encountered could not stir this kind of emotional reaction within him, and they either retreated, wounded or perished. This is how he gained his immortality:

As a marauder for the Sith Empire during the Great Sith War, Sion flings himself at the Jedi, seeking death, but instead, he finds the opposite. Regularly surviving the frontline pandemonium, Sion acquires a pain tolerance that convinces him of his immortality. Inevitably, probablity has its day and Sion is struck down. Yet death does not comes to Darth Sion, and each centimeter of his failing body comes alive with anguish, multiplying that infinitely distant point of pain one thousandfold until his brain threatens to collapse. Improbably, Sion gets up. And as he locks eyes with his attacker, Sion lets all of his anger for being killed - all the hatred clotting his heart - explode. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

This capability of his got attention of Darth Traya.

After betraying her, Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

It was made clear in KoTOR II that most Jedi went in to hiding when Sion and Nihilus began their Jedi purge. Now when he was on a Jedi hunting spree, he would have had to seek them out in places of their hiding rather than always waiting for them. And he would have had to travel to many places for his purpose.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090425052120/starwars/images/a/ab/Darth_Sion_CG.jpg

This image does not depicts Korriban or Malachor V. It depicts an encounter of Sion with a Jedi in a different world.

His immortality certainly worked in all places or he would have perished easily in non-dark sided places (where he would be 'supposedly' vulnerable). His Jedi hunting spree would have ended rather easily. Remember he also survived the explosion of Harbinger, a republic cruiser.

Or do you think that he was such an exceptional duelist that he never took a hit in supposedly vulnerable places?

And if he could be easily talked to death, Traya herself would have done that long ago. She wanted him to die after his betrayal.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did you played as male or female? Sion will die in both cases. However, canonical path is female and in this playthrough, the main reason for his downfall is this:
Cool. Sure the Exile talks Sion out of living, but it doesn't change the fact that he was clearly weakening.


Now prove any of these places he died at were not dark side nexuses. Afterall, he killed Lonna Vash on Korriban.


Allright. Now prove he "died" while killing "Qui-Gon" and prove this is not a dark side nexus...


Sion was still a very skilled duelist, not to mention he had assassins who could help him in battle. So no I don't think it means his Jedi hunting spree would have ended easily.

This ship likely escaped as the Republic found no traces of it while searching for evidence.

One does not need to be exeptional to not die, merly better than his opponent. Not to mention he had plenty of Sith Assassins to back him up.

vader killed plenty of jedi without taking a scratch. so did grievous.

Originally posted by ares834 Cool. Sure the Exile talks Sion out of living, but it doesn't change the fact that he was clearly weakening.
He did not got weakened by just the talk. You keep ignoring this part:

As he continued to pursue her, though, a new feeling towards her stirred in Sion, something beyond respect or admiration, and an emotion that he loathed. He thought her beautiful, and his hatred diminished with these emotions, threatening his grip on life. (from Wookieepedia)

His hatred (one of factors behind his immortality) was declining due to a strange 'emotional reaction' he felt from Exile. No other opponent could stir up such a feeling in him. This strange influence on his mind became his undoing.

And an official source elaborates on this in clear terms:

One Jedi especially gets underneath Sion's decrepit skin. The Jedi Exile proves remarkably resilient. Sion feels an alien feeling bud within him: not respect for female jedi, not admiration, but an emotion quite intolerable. It causes his intense hatred to flag, threatening his tenuous hold on life, so Sion decides to destroy the woman responsible for this weakness. However, in their final confrontation, the Jedi Exile convinces the Dark Lord to release himself from his enslaving hatred. Rage and life flee Sion simultaneously, his undead body finally yielding to absolute necrosis. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

This weakness ultimately facilitated him to let go his hatred.

Now prove any of these places he died at were not dark side nexuses. Afterall, he killed Lonna Vash on Korriban.
You prove that he encountered all of the Jedi on Korriban or Malachor V. Since, he was on a Jedi hunting spree, it wasn't necessary that he met all of his enemies on these two planets. What you see in KoTOR II is not all of it.

The image of one of his encounters that I presented neither depicts Korriban, Lehon, or Malachor V (3 most visited dark worlds in KoTOR series). It depicts a developed world, though not identified.

Allright. Now prove he "died" while killing "Qui-Gon" and prove this is not a dark side nexus...
What part of this statement - Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide) - you could not understand?

Sion was still a very skilled duelist, not to mention he had assassins who could help him in battle. So no I don't think it means his Jedi hunting spree would have ended easily.
Now you suddenly believe that Sion was a very skilled duelist?

He might be a skilled duelist but he was struck down several times, only to get up and defeat the opponents in the next round.

This ship likely escaped as the Republic found no traces of it while searching for evidence.
In the firefight, a stray shot from one of the vessels impacted one of the asteroids, which set off a chain reaction of volatile chemicals. The Peragus asteroid field exploded, and the Harbinger was caught in the midst of it, though Sion survived. (from Wookieepedia)

Therefore, that ship was destroyed and no traces were found.

One does not need to be exeptional to not die, merly better than his opponent. Not to mention he had plenty of Sith Assassins to back him up.
Tell that to Traya. In addition, a single statement quoted above from Campaign Guide destroys your arguments. Just give up.

Originally posted by truejedi vader killed plenty of jedi without taking a scratch. so did grievous.
But Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He did not got weakened by just the talk. You keep ignoring this part:

As he continued to pursue her, though, a new feeling towards her stirred in Sion, something beyond respect or admiration, and an emotion that he loathed. He thought her beautiful, and his hatred diminished with these emotions, threatening his grip on life. (from Wookieepedia)
Yes, I have already said that is "cool". Really what the **** are you saying here. I agreed with you. The Exile talked him into dying due to his love fore her, but that doesn't change the fact that he was weakening throughout the fight.


Yeah cool. Doesn't change the fact that he was on his hands and knees after the Exile killed him several times.


You made the claim. Regardless, I have evidence it is with the dark power of Malachor V that allowed him to come back to life.


Cool. So its a pointless picture that helps your arguments how? There simply is no proof anywhere that he "died" there.

The part where is says Sion could resuerect himself anywhere... Really once again I have evidence that says Malachor V's power is what allowed himself to reserect himself numerous times. In fact, Sion himself is the one who says this.


Why is that wrong? He is still a Sith Lord, his combat skills have to be somewhat impressive. Afterall from your favorite source, "As a marauder for the Sith Empire during the Great Sith War, Sion flings himself at the Jedi, seeking death, but instead, he finds the opposite. Regularly surviving the frontline pandemonium, Sion acquires a pain tolerance that convinces him of his immortality."

Yeah, but where was he killed?


Good source... Once again, no evidence was found that the Harbinger was ever there. If it did get caught in the explosion shrapnel and pieces of the ship should have been found, also the Harbinger was not shown to be destroyed and they were right at the edge of the aestroid field. A simply radnom jump to hypercpace could have got them outof there, which really should have been rather easy.

Regardless, prove the Harbinger was destroyed. Afterall it was your claim.

Hm, I must have missed it.

Originally posted by ares834
.

Hm, I must have missed it.

Did he actually give you the quote? Or did he use Wookipedia as a source again?

Ah he used some shitty quotes that proved nothing important, simply that Sion died occasionally. However, he did use wookiepedia as a source...

geez.. we all know sion died occasionally..

We also know he got talked into losing in the only instance we know of where someone tried...



Durge is another plot device though... .these two really suit each other.

Agreed. Immortal characters are boring and stupid, especially when they are in SW.

Originally posted by ares834 Yes, I have already said that is "cool". Really what the **** are you saying here. I agreed with you. The Exile talked him into dying due to his love fore her, but that doesn't change the fact that he was weakening throughout the fight.
The attitude of some people here is the problem. I apologize, If I did not understood your intentions.

He was weakening throughout the fight due to his gradually diminishing hatred for Exile until he just decided to give up. At least, this is what canonical sources are implying.

Yeah cool. Doesn't change the fact that he was on his hands and knees after the Exile killed him several times.
And the reason of his demise was not physical dominance of his opponent and neither some random talking. Sion himself told Exile this: I can die a hundred times, Exile, and still will I rise, as powerful as before.

It was that emotional reaction on the works.

You made the claim. Regardless, I have evidence it is with the dark power of Malachor V that allowed him to come back to life.
And I provided a counter-argument already.

Cool. So its a pointless picture that helps your arguments how? There simply is no proof anywhere that he "died" there.
Let us focus again on the presented information:

As a marauder for the Sith Empire during the Great Sith War, Sion flings himself at the Jedi, seeking death, but instead, he finds the opposite. Regularly surviving the frontline pandemonium, Sion acquires a pain tolerance that convinces him of his immortality. Inevitably, probablity has its day and Sion is struck down. Yet death does not comes to Darth Sion, and each centimeter of his failing body comes alive with anguish, multiplying that infinitely distant point of pain one thousandfold until his brain threatens to collapse. Improbably, Sion gets up. And as he locks eyes with his attacker, Sion lets all of his anger for being killed - all the hatred clotting his heart - explode. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

Sion was ultimately struck down in a duel and he was dead. However, he managed to resurrect himself. His flesh was in a decomposing state since than as we see in KoTOR II.

The part where is says Sion could resuerect himself anywhere... Really once again I have evidence that says Malachor V's power is what allowed himself to reserect himself numerous times. In fact, Sion himself is the one who says this.
Dark places would have fueled his power. However, Kriea reminds that he was invincible also on the Korriban. So Malachor V's power is not the real reason behind his immortality. It was his own ability.

Otherwise, he would have died on Harbinger on any other places he visisted besides Malachor V.

Why is that wrong? He is still a Sith Lord, his combat skills have to be somewhat impressive. Afterall from your favorite source, "As a marauder for the Sith Empire during the Great Sith War, Sion flings himself at the Jedi, seeking death, but instead, he finds the opposite. Regularly surviving the frontline pandemonium, Sion acquires a pain tolerance that convinces him of his immortality."

Yeah, but where was he killed?
Already high-lighted above.

Good source... Once again, no evidence was found that the Harbinger was ever there. If it did get caught in the explosion shrapnel and pieces of the ship should have been found, also the Harbinger was not shown to be destroyed and they were right at the edge of the aestroid field. A simply radnom jump to hypercpace could have got them outof there, which really should have been rather easy.

Regardless, prove the Harbinger was destroyed. Afterall it was your claim.
You prove that Harbinger was not destroyed, since you originally claimed that it might have survived the disaster of peragus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vLC4ukGzOQ

http://hosting11.imagecross.com/image-hosting-45/7340Harbinger.JPG

That ship got caught up in those explosions.

Hm, I must have missed it.
How many times should I repeat it?

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide, Page 159)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The attitude of some people here is the problem. I apologize, If I did not understood your intentions.

He was weakening throughout the fight due to his gradually diminishing hatred for Exile until he just decided to give up. At least, this is what canonical sources are implying.
Not really. They say Sion's love for the Exile forces him to let go of his life, not that it slowly weakens him.


Notice how he says this while on his hands and knees. It is possible he could have returned to life hundreds of times, but it doesn't change the fact that he was weakening.


No you haven't. I asked for proof that Sion has died on worlds that were not dark side nexuses. You then posted a quote saying that Sion died many times during the purge. That does not mean he died on a place that was not a dark side nexus, mearly that he died several times.



Yes this did happen. But where was it? Prove that it was on a place other than a dark side nexus.

Indeed. And guess what? Korriban is also a world full of powerful dark energies!


Not if he wasn't killed at any of these other places or of they weren't dark side nexuses.


No, I didn't bring it up... You did saying this:



And Republic Cruisers have massive sheilds capable of easily absorbing turbolaser fire, which according to some numbers can have far more firepower than a nuke. And from BHW, "The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength."

So yeah, surviving that explosion wouldn't be a strecth at all. Granted, I never made the claim. I simply said that there were no remanants of the ship suggesting that it escaped.


And how many times should I repeat it? Prove that any of these places he "died" at aren't dark side nexuses.

Originally posted by ares834 Not really. They say Sion's love for the Exile forces him to let go of his life, not that it slowly weakens him.
Sion's love is the real reason than?

Notice how he says this while on his hands and knees. It is possible he could have returned to life hundreds of times, but it doesn't change the fact that he was weakening.
Have a re-look at his statement:

I can die a hundred times, Exile, and still will I rise, as powerful as before.

Can you read properly or not? He wasn't tired or something. He just decided to give up. Whether he did that on his knees or not, it matters not. The real reason behind his demise have already been provided. Seriously, this argument needs no further exploration.

No you haven't. I asked for proof that Sion has died on worlds that were not dark side nexuses. You then posted a quote saying that Sion died many times during the purge. That does not mean he died on a place that was not a dark side nexus, mearly that he died several times.
He ventured out of those dark side places, right? He came to Harbinger (an example)? Remember that he was on a Jedi hunting spree. It means that it wasn't necessary that Jedi came after him. He would have gone after them too. Stop being delusional and try to understand my point.

Yes this did happen. But where was it? Prove that it was on a place other than a dark side nexus.
You prove the negative.

Indeed. And guess what? Korriban is also a world full of powerful dark energies!
Thank you for reminding me but I know this. Your original assertion that Malachor V gave Sion his immortality is bullshit.

Not if he wasn't killed at any of these other places or of they weren't dark side nexuses.
Prove that his immortality only works on dark side places. KoTOR II is just one source upon which you are relying. The KoTOR Campaign Guide makes it clear that he engaged in a Jedi hunting spree and his base of operations were surely not limited to just Malachor V and Korriban. He did actually ventured out from these places (Harbinger and an unknown developed world being two known examples). And during his Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. You prove it to me that he always lurked in dark places during the Jedi Purge.

No, I didn't bring it up... You did saying this:
So you never claimed that Harbinger might have escaped and survived the incident at Paragus? Then whose comment is this:

Originally posted by ares834 This ship likely escaped as the Republic found no traces of it while searching for evidence.

Aren't you making a claim here? Prove it that Harbinger survived.

And Republic Cruisers have massive sheilds capable of easily absorbing turbolaser fire, which according to some numbers can have far more firepower than a nuke. And from BHW, "The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength."
Those explosions wiped out Paragus (a planet) and you are telling me that a Republic Cruiser would have survived that incident?

So yeah, surviving that explosion wouldn't be a strecth at all. Granted, I never made the claim. I simply said that there were no remanants of the ship suggesting that it escaped.
You have no clue of what you are talking about here. Are you drunk or something?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHazk2pWb_Q

See the opening comments in this video. Those explosions killed a planet. And Harbinger evidently got caught up in those explosions. We know that Sion survived but we do not have any evidence suggesting that Harbinger made it through. The investigation of that site yielded nothing. So you are just making an assumption and a bad one.

And how many times should I repeat it? Prove that any of these places he "died" at aren't dark side nexuses.
You prove the negative.

One thing about the "Rise again as powerful as before" quote. It isn't necessarily canon. Exile can easily skip all of that dialogue and continue to fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sion's love is the real reason than?


Have a re-look at his statement:

I can die a hundred times, Exile, and still will I rise, as powerful as before.

Can you read properly or not? He wasn't tired or something. He just decided to give up. Whether he did that on his knees or not, it matters not. The real reason behind his demise have already been provided. Seriously, this argument needs no further exploration.
And before that he says that he is completely unsure of himself, wondering if he can keep doing this and if he does have the power to defeat the Exile. Seems that he was simply boasting and in the end he couldn't overcome the Exile. Regardelss, that really doesn't matter as he was obviously weakening, could it have been due to his feelings for the Exile? Yes it could. But it may not as well. And yes it was his love for the Exiel that ultimately caused him to die.



Yeah, I got that. Your saying that he left Malachor V and he died several times, but that does not mean he died on worlds that were not full of dark energies. Simply that he died.


That was never my original assertion...

That was my original assertion, that Sion is immortal only on places full of dark side energies has always been my argument.




Wht should I? Unlike you I have proof, cold hard proof. You have nothing but speculation. Untill you can prove that he can actually die and come back to life at places that are not dark side nexuses this argument is over.


I posed a possability only after you made the claim. Really, we can have no clue whether or not it escaped.


Not when the planet exploded, no. However the inital explosions of the asteroids blowing up, yes.


And Peragus II was a world full of highly explosive fuel. I mean a simple mistake made the planet blow off a massive amount of its mass creating the asteroid field. Ergo, it explodes easily.


I have proof from Sion himself that it was Malachor V's dark power that kept him alive during his duel with the Exile. You have no proof that he can use said ability on any place other than dark side nexuses.

Okay Legend, you're obviously speculating on almost everything. Lets summarize:

First, when Ares asked you repeatedly if Sion died on any other planet not filled with Dark Side energies like Korriban or Malachor 5, you said that he must have died on a planet not filled with Dark Side energies because he died several times while hunting. You can't prove this, hence speculation.

EDIT: you keep bringing up that quote about him dying many times. How many times is many? One might say that because dying is a terrible thing that many can be as much as 3-4 times. So it's pretty reasonable to assume that he just died on dark side filled planets, unless you can prove the opposite, it's like I said, speculation.

Secondly, you initially claimed that the Harbinger got destroyed so that Sion had to swim around in space to the next spaceport or another nearby space ship, while it is more likely that the Harbinger survived like the Ebon Hawk. You can't prove this, hence speculation.

Thirdly, you gave a picture of Sion standing above a dead Jedi, prove that he died during that duel. If you can't prove this, it's speculation.

Lastly, we actually see Sion get weakened during the fight. He can brag as much as he can about being as powerful as before, but bragging is common and not proof. I can give you many examples of characters overpowering themselves with words, especially Dark siders.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Okay Legend, you're obviously speculating on almost everything. Lets summarize:

First, when Ares asked you repeatedly if Sion died on any other planet not filled with Dark Side energies like Korriban or Malachor 5, you said that he must have died on a planet not filled with Dark Side energies because he died several times while hunting. You can't prove this, hence speculation.

EDIT: you keep bringing up that quote about him dying many times. How many times is many? One might say that because dying is a terrible thing that many can be as much as 3-4 times. So it's pretty reasonable to assume that he just died on dark side filled planets, unless you can prove the opposite, it's like I said, speculation.

Let's use a little common sense here.

He was out hunting Jedi. Why the heck would Jedi be on dark side-heavy planets? They'd stand out like a beacon.

So, beg your pardon but no. Common sense dictates that it is not reasonable to assume he only died on dark side filled planets since that isn't where Jedi would be found. Just how many planets like that exist anyway? I'd wager a pretty small percentage out of the billions of planets in the galaxy. It'd be pretty darn convienient to only die on worlds that are full of dark power.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Thirdly, you gave a picture of Sion standing above a dead Jedi, prove that he died during that duel. If you can't prove this, it's speculation.

Missing the point here. The point is that he travelled to places that weren't dark side-heavy. If he was travelling to non-dark side-heavy places, again common sense indicates that he'd have probably 'died' there too.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Lastly, we actually see Sion get weakened during the fight.

You do realise, don't you, that he was weakened because of his feelings for the Exile? Had it been someone else he wouldn't have weakened.

Seems to me LeGenD is the only one thinking sensibly.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Let's use a little common sense here.

He was out hunting Jedi. Why the heck would Jedi be on dark side-heavy planets? They'd stand out like a beacon.

So, beg your pardon but no. Common sense dictates that it is not reasonable to assume he only died on dark side filled planets since that isn't where Jedi would be found. Just how many planets like that exist anyway? I'd wager a pretty small percentage out of the billions of planets in the galaxy. It'd be pretty darn convienient to only die on worlds that are full of dark power.

Does common sense equal proof, fact or canon to you? If yes, then you're definitely in the wrong place. We don't work with assumptions unless they're absolutely bullet proof, which it isn't in this situation.



Why would he die there? Does common sense also include dying a lot? We've seen Sith hunting Jedi and never dying. It's very probable that N. took out the strongest Jedi by killing the Jedi gathering on Katar. So unless Sion is completely incompetent, it is not logical to assume that he constantly died.



Well, at least you made me laugh, I guess that stands for something.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Does common sense equal proof, fact or canon to you?

You are correct Slash, common sense does not always equal proof or fact, however it does help draw a logical conclusion when based upon a solid foundation.

S_W_LeGen and chilled monkey conculsions are based upon there knowledge of Jedi and the personality traits of Sion. Which I feel are valid points.

What is your interpretation of this statement:
After betraying her, Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)?

you!

Oh my god! It's three of them!!!

Originally posted by Kotor3
You are correct Slash, common sense does not always equal proof or fact, however it does help draw a logical conclusion when based upon a solid foundation.

S_W_LeGen and chilled monkey conculsions are based upon there knowledge of Jedi and the personality traits of Sion. Which I feel are valid points.

What is your interpretation of this statement:
After betraying her, Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)?

Vague is a word that comes to mind. Not conclusive is another interpretation.

What is your interpretation of these statements:

Originally posted by ares834

Exile: I will not run from that corpse.
Kreia: There will be another time. Not now, not here, while Korriban runs through him

and later on on Malachor V.

Sion: As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I can not be killed.

After being told he is weakening.
Sion: I... I still have the power to stop you. The Force runs strong through the screaming canyons of Malachor.

No on has posted ANYTHING that comes anywhere close to overturning thsi post.

Let's dissect this: "As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I can not be killed."

As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh: cause.
I can not be killed:consequence.

So you see not being able to be killed as just heightening his power?

Now, as long as you're not able to trump this with something other than a vague quote, I'm not going to be bothered with stubborn people like you anymore.

Facts > possibilities.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Let's dissect this: "As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I can not be killed."

As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh: cause.
I can not be killed:consequence.

So you see not being able to be killed as just heightening his power?

Now, as long as you're not able to trump this with something other than a vague quote, I'm not going to be bothered with stubborn people like you anymore.

Facts > possibilities.

What is fact Slash? That Sion is truely immortal on planets filled with dark engeries? Or was that the way he felt due to having such a large supply of dark energy. Malak felt the same way on the star forge.

If you are using that quote to state that Sion is only able to resurrect himself on places filled with dark energies then you have proven nothing.

truejedi stated the point quite well, a quote that ends this conversation, "Sure he may be able to perform it on other planets, but not as often".

No, besides i doubt that after he was killed once, the Jedi was like "OMFG I JUST KILLED HIM HOW IS HE STANDING ABOUT TO KILL ME WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" so he didnt have to worry about being killed multiple times

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Let's dissect this: "As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I can not be killed."

As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh: cause.
I can not be killed:consequence.

Just because someone says something doesn't make it a fact. A skilled FPS gamer could say something very similar.

Example: As long as I have the sniper in Valhallah, I cannot be killed.

Fact? No. Fighting in the best possible scenario making my survival more likely? Yep.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Just because someone says something doesn't make it a fact. A skilled FPS gamer could say something very similar.

Example: As long as I have the sniper in Valhallah, I cannot be killed.

Fact? No. Fighting in the best possible scenario making my survival more likely? Yep.

Exactly, because someone says something doesn't make it a fact.

So what happens when Sion gets his head cut off? Have we ever seen it? Does he pop a new head out of his neck? Does he use the Force to plant his head back on his body? Can his body without a head even feel hate or can his head without a body feel hate or anything at all?

The whole not being able to die thing is plain PIS and there is absolutely no way he can survive losing his head. Unless someone can give me a reasonable explanation.

Has anyone brought it up yet? How can Sion recreate destroyed matter?

I'd like to see him as a Wolverine type. That would at least be acceptable.

As it is, he's more like Imhotep with a lightsaber. And no regeneration.

I never thought he could survive without a head. What if Durge just picks up the head and carries it away? Fight over.

You know, strange that no one who has ever "killed" Sion was smart enough to think of it. Anakin got how to do it in RotS, seems like the Jedi really evolved over time.

I think beheading was frowned upon by the Jedi or something. They're all for killing their enemies, but it can't be a quick death. Slow and drawn out is the way to go--it lets the villains have a final talk to the hero who did 'em in. Also, monologues are sweet (as says in the Jedi Code).

its true, pretty much every villian who dies is still alive enough at the end for last words. Exile obviously didn't try cutting Sion's head off, since he was still talking at the end.

Originally posted by ares834
Prove that any of these planets Sion died on were not a dark side nexus. Here is the proof for his recarnation ability only really working on a planet full of dark side energies.

Exile: I will not run from that corpse.
Kreia: There will be another time. Not now, not here, while Korriban runs through him

and later on on Malachor V.

Sion: As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I can not be killed.

These quotes clearly show that it is on worlds strong in the dark side that he has this power. As Kreia claims he can be defeaed on Korriban suggesting that at other places he can be, and Sion himself states it is Malachor V's power that allows him to keep himslef alive. Sure he may be able to preform it on other planets, but not as often. Heck, even on Malachor V he is not completlley invincible.

After being told he is weakening.
Sion: I... I still have the power to stop you. The Force runs strong through the screaming canyons of Malachor.

Then the next time you defeat him, he is on his hands and knees rather than standing clearly he is weakening even though he is drawing upon the dark power on Malachor.

The defeats were psychological, because you were repeatedly defeating him while being his antithesis in almost everyway. He was beginning to see his inferiority to the Exile. Eventaully, he simply decides the force isn't worth it and just lets himself go.

He was defeated by psychological conditions which could not be replicated by someone who still had Anakin's or Yoda's connection to the force...

Sure, you defeated him in battle, but the real fight really was one of heart and soul.

but if he had his head severed, I see no evidence to suggest he would grow a new one.

Originally posted by truejedi
but if he had his head severed, I see no evidence to suggest he would grow a new one. Grow one? Just reconstitute it with telekinesis. We have no evidence that he couldn't survive without a head, and in this case, thats more relevant.

"we have no evidence that he couldn't survive without a head."

Really? THAT is your argument? That a being SHOULD be able to survive without a head unless proven otherwise?

Talk about flipping an argument on its ear.

...why even bother trying? cockface.

Dude, I can survive without a head. We have no evidence that I couldn't.

You keep most of your brain in your spleen anyways.

Originally posted by ares834
Prove that any of these planets Sion died on were not a dark side nexus. Here is the proof for his recarnation ability only really working on a planet full of dark side energies.

Wow. Last time I checked, asking people to disprove your thesis in order to win a debate was considered a logical fallacy. Did that change recently? Otherwise it would be your turn to prove that Sion can only perform this action close to a Dark Side nexus. And without even mentioning the fact that he performed this stuff from the days of Kun on (45 year until KotoR II), I could just point at the games prologue. You do realize that Sion is getting blown into pieces on board the Harbinger when the asteroid field around Peragus II explodes? As we know, he does obviously survive that. Where was the dark side nexus in that incident, which is - actually - much more dramatic then receiving a few instantly cauterized lightsaber stabs through the body?



Yes. What they don't show is, that he doesn't have that power when he isn't on such worlds. We even have evidence to the contrary. But if you want a more logical and rational approach to this: We know that Sion discovered this special ability in the days in which he served as Sith marauder under Exar Kun. That's 45 years before his death. We also know that he did hunt Jedi across the entire Galaxy. So, for your argument to work, you'd have to assume that:

- Sion did just operate on worlds with a dark side nexus in the past 45 years.
- Sion did confront the Jedi and got "killed" only on worlds with a dark side nexus.

While one could attempt to argue utilizing the first premise, an argument based on the second premise clearly doesn't fly. Jedi wouldn't hide near a dark side nexus, because they would put any possible attacker into a position of advantage (Sith and Dark Jedi benefitting from the nexus), which doesn't make sense.



Wow.
I'd call this arguing in circles, because before even attempting to come up with an argument why Durge would win, you do already assume that he's capable of killing Sion once. Do I really need to remind the people here, that Durge failed to overpower Kenobi and Skywalker again and again, even when having the benefit of launching an ambush on them? Do I need to remind you, that Grievous did defeat Durge and put him into a state where he needed Bacta treatment to be able to participate in the Clone Wars again (by beheading the bounty hunter)? Do I need to remind everybody that Durge needs time to recover from serious injuries, which is quite evident from the fact that it took him almost a century to recover from Mandalorian torture? The guy doesn't simple re-assemble himself in the matter of seconds like the T-1000 did in Terminator II. On the other handside: Sion does recover in the matter of seconds, apparently from any injury dealt to him.



Again: This kind of argument implies that Durge is capable of defeating Sion in a straight-forward fight, when he has lost against every halfway decent duellist in the saga. So why do you think he could "kill" Sion, before the Sith Lord utilizes his lightsaber skill or dark side powers to put Durge out of combat (into a state where he needs a long-term rest to recover)? Turning this into a "who is closer to immortality" contest would neither solve this match, nor would that kind of argument take the full abilities of both combatants into consideration.

And even if you want to turn it into such a kind of contest: We've seen multiple actions that at least temporarily took Durge out (blowing him up, incinerating him, beheading him, torturing him), but there is just one thing that took Sion out (completely) and that was the Exile talking him to death, which Durge can't replicate, unless you want to assume that Sion develops a love interest for the bounty hunter...Every other method? Really. If neither lightsabers nor large scale explosion in outer space can do the job, how do you think Durge will be able to kill Sion?

And thus Borby proves in one post that the old guard isn't completely dead and why it is and was superior to the new guard.

That must be why they're still around and kickin' our arses, amiright?

Lettum, your argument is still

"We have no evidence that he couldn't survive without a head."

You have very little to be happy about.

Sion clearly had his head at the end of each exchange with the exile, so we have no proof that he ever had his head cut off. He also had his head when found dead onboard the Republic Cruiser.

As it stands, if he has his head cut off, there is zero reason to believe he would survive.

What about the whole 'I cannot be killed' thing?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. Last time I checked, asking people to disprove your thesis in order to win a debate was considered a logical fallacy. Did that change recently? Otherwise it would be your turn to prove that Sion can only perform this action close to a Dark Side nexus.


Both places that he has survived a duel in which he is regenerating, he has been on a dark-side Nexus. Until you can prove he has done it anywhere else, then the burden of proof would lie on you.





I'm surprised at you. You didn't read the thread, did you? We have spent pages arguing that already. There is absolutely no proof that Sion was onboard the Harbringer. The last time we saw him, he was with Kreia. She got off, so it is clear that he could have as well.



This would be an argument winning point if Kreia hadn't left the fight with Sion escaped the Harbringer. Since she had time to get away, there was obviously time for Sion to do the same.



We obviously can't prove a negative. Burden of proof falls to you to prove he could do it anywhere else. All game examples and in-universe quotations support an argument that it can only be done in a darkside nexus. If you have evidence that he can perform it elsewhere, be forthcoming, otherwise you hang this argument on the fact that we cannot prove a negative.



No, it is going to be option B.



Exactly. The in-universe quotes seem to make this clear. If you have evidence to the contrary, please, present it.




Oops. Where did Yoda hide again? Why did he hide there? And it worked. retract that one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What about the whole 'I cannot be killed' thing?

What about Anakin saying "This is the end for you my master?"

Correct me if I'm wrong as it's been a while since I played the game, but isn't Sion simply staying alive an application of the ability (the ability being his ability to hold his body together)? Is it not the same ability that holds his body together that which prevents him from dying?

i think so, so it is believed if his head was cut completely off, and then taken from him, that he would be screwed.

Unless you are suggesting the lightsaber goes through the flesh with the flesh reforming around it as it cuts?

That's a pretty interesting thought right there actually.

Still, a shot to the brain should still kill him, because if he loses consciousness, he can't use the will to hold himself together, and if has a lightsaber sized chunk in the middle of his brain at any given time, it takes away too many functions to give him control of his person.

This Harbinger crap again? We have no proof that the Harbinger got destroyed or that he was on it. Although we lack any proof it is also not logical to assume that he doesn't need to breathe or that he swam through space.

Slash, don't be stupid. Any idiot knows that Sion's incontrovertible line of "I cannot be killed" makes him impervious to any damage. EVER. Explosion, vacuum, it doesn't matter. He can survive ANYTHING because he said so.

Oh, I forgot. I bet even his pinky could survive on its own and kill a few Jedi.

It did. Every part of his body is a lethal weapon when not attached. It's when he's whole that he's vulnerable. See? He's one big trick.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Slash, don't be stupid. Any idiot knows that Sion's incontrovertible line of "I cannot be killed" makes him impervious to any damage. EVER. Explosion, vacuum, it doesn't matter. He can survive ANYTHING because he said so.

Ohh, I see what you did there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That must be why they're still around and kickin' our arses, amiright?

Everybody knows the reason that the old guard is gone is because of semi-draconian rules of flaming.

However, as much as the staff has gotten overzealous, just as much of it was justified.

They are gone because of there intolerance of stupidity. Nothing else.

Originally posted by truejedi
i think so, so it is believed if his head was cut completely off, and then taken from him, that he would be screwed.

Unless you are suggesting the lightsaber goes through the flesh with the flesh reforming around it as it cuts?

That's a pretty interesting thought right there actually.

Still, a shot to the brain should still kill him, because if he loses consciousness, he can't use the will to hold himself together, and if has a lightsaber sized chunk in the middle of his brain at any given time, it takes away too many functions to give him control of his person.

Proof his consisuosness is till tied to his brain, something that by all physical evidence, has likely rotted away by now?

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Proof his consisuosness is till tied to his brain, something that by all physical evidence, has likely rotted away by now?

you don't understand burden of proof. Since consciousness IS tied to the brain, you would have to prove it is otherwise with Sion before we can even begin to assume that it isn't.

For instance: How can you prove that Sidious's conciousness is tied to his brain? You cannot. Therefore to assume that cutting of his head would kill him is fallacious, according to the line of thinking you are attempting to go down here.

You would have to offer proof to the contrary in order to change the norm which clearly states human conciousness is found in the brain.

You are bad at this. The best thing you have done is cheerlead Nai. Nai is a good debator. Watch him more, post less. This would be to your advantage.

TJ, maybe Sion's consciousness is tied to his balls and not his brains, makes absolute sense. Or even better, Sion IS the Force.

Oh my God, guys... breakthrough!

Revan IS Sion! Heart of the Force and all that.

Or Marek



But on someones point (im tired and therefore lazy right now) maybe his brain and many internal organs have rotted away. He has no immune system, so those little microorganisms will eventually turn him into a hollow husk that can kill you. His conciousness may be tied to the force, cosidering how he is technically dead, he may have just found the Siths version of what Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Yoda, AND Luke, did.

The Sith version of a Force Ghost is a Force Corpse? That makes even more sense!

C'mon people, I think we're starting to figure out the enigma.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
The Sith version of a Force Ghost is a Force Corpse? That makes even more sense!

C'mon people, I think we're starting to figure out the enigma. IDK, but it seems like a sith thing.

Alchemy was focused on amulets and such, but it also had a hand in mutations to serve the sith. This is a more naturalish mutation by the dark side itself, making a living corpse that must kill and hate to survive,
meaning it must virtually FEED the dark side.

Thats my opinion anyways.

Originally posted by truejedi
Both places that he has survived a duel in which he is regenerating, he has been on a dark-side Nexus. Until you can prove he has done it anywhere else, then the burden of proof would lie on you.


Argumentum ad ignorantiam, logical fallacy.
He did survive duels on more than two places. You limit the evidence to in-game-content, ignoring his entire backstory. He was hunting Jedi for more than four decades. Fact. He died "countless times" during this. Fact. Your assumption: All his deaths in the four decades happened close to a dark side nexus. Your proof: None. So you're inserting wild speculations, against probability and ignoring Occam's Razor. Conclusion: You lose.



Argumentum ad ingorantiam, logical fallacy.

We have proof (dialogue with G0-T0 and Dol Grenn) that the asteroid field and the mining facility were completely destroyed. We've seen the Harbinger caugt in the middle of that explosion. The only people that canonically escaped were the people on board of the Ebon Hawk.

To reach your desired conclusion (Sion not being a victim of the explosion), you would have to assume that Sion was on board of the Harbinger (which you attempt to deny) and that the Harbinger managed to escape form the inferno (which you have no proof for). With the evidence present, it's more logical to assume that the Harbinger was destroyed, thus making Sion a quaranteed victim of the explosion. Even ignoring this, Occam's Razor favors my interpretation. Conclusion: You lose.



Irrelevant, as demonstrated above. Anything present in the asteroid belt was destroyed, with the exception of the Ebon Hawk.



Argumentum ad ignorantiam, shifting the burden of proof, logical fallacy.

You want to limit Sion's ability to ressurect himself, so it would be your task, to come up with proof that such a limitation does exist. Did you do so? No. You just gave us examples that his abilities are stronger on worlds with a dark side nexus, which doesn't mean they are non-existant on worlds that lack such a nexus. Which would be an argument against probability (40 years, countless deaths, all on worlds with a dark side nexus?). Your ignorance towards Sion's backstory doesn't win debate, neither does your manner of simply inserting assumptions without presenting any proof for them.

Once more: Two arguments based on speculation, with mine being the more logical one. Conclusion: You lose.



The hell.
I've explained into detail, that the in-universe quotes don't make this clear. They just demonstrate the idea that his dark side abilities in general are boosted when close to a dark side nexus. That's a fact and, gosh, nobody did attempt to argue that. I don't care about your personal interpretation of character quotes, which - if analyzed properly instead of interpreted in favor for your stance - just prove what I said they prove. Or does anybody say that Sion can only perform his actions close to a dark side nexus? No. Thanks for playing.



I do know the answer to that question, but apparently you don't. Yoda did hide on Dagobah but his main reason to go there was the fact, that the planet had been erased from the archives of the Jedi Order, so that it "didn't exist". The second reason was the huge amount of lifeforms, making the planet a focal point of the living force, which made Yoda practically undetectable (as seen in ESB when Luke scans the planet for lifeforms). The dark side nexus there (a weak one, if I may add, in comparison to Korriban or Malachor V), was just the icing on the cake and we don't even know if Yoda had knowledge about what happened on that planet before he went there.

Where is the relevance? How many other Jedi did hide on dark side planets in the history of the SW universe. Let me check: KotoR II features only Lonna Vash hiding in such a place (Korriban), waiting for the Exile. Then we have Kavar "hiding" on Onderon, which I might grant you for that list, provided it was in the grasp of the Dark Side for centuries. And we have Yoda hiding on Dagobah.

The other Jedi we've seen going into hiding are preferring places with dense populations (Vima-Da-Boda on Coruscant, Zez-Kai Ell and Tholme on Nar Shaddaa), a strong presence in the living force (on reason for Yoda to chose Dagobah, Shaak Ti on Felucia, Quinlan Vos on Kashyyyk) or "deserted" worlds that aren't commonly visited (Kazdan Paratus on Raxus Prime, Vrook on Dantooine, Ulic Qel-Droma on Rhen Var, Obi-Wan on Tatooine).

The point was, that it doesn't make sense to assume that Sion just did hunt Jedi that were all hiding close to a dark side nexus - for more than four decades of his life. And please don't tell me that this sounds reasonable for you.



And here we're back at the actual debate, which you apparently refuse to participate in. I may just ask again: How in the blue hell is Durge going to defeat Sion in a straight forward fight? I'd love to have an answer to this, because you happily dodged the point once again.

That aside: Decapitation also would take Durge out of the fight. Yet, unless with Sion, we do know for sure that it would take Durge out, while you're just speculating again in regards to Sion. And, as far as I recall, only one of the participants is equiped with a weapon made for cutting things off and the sufficient skill to wield it - and it's not Durge.

Shooting through Sions head? Nice idea. We all know that it's totally easy to hit a Jedi or Sith with a blaster. They aren't fast as hell and thereby able to dodge blasterfire and they also don't wield weapons able to deflect such attacks, right? Hence why Durge easily gunned down the likes of Kenobi and Skywalker before.

And, finally, could you please stop with the double-standards. Accepting all kind of speculation when it comes to possible vulnerabilities for Sion, yet ignoring the same kind of speculation, when it comes to the strength of his ability is clear bias. Cut it out. If you want to stick to your agenda of only accepting clear evidence, the only way to kill Sion is being his love interest and convincing him to die - and nothing else. No matter how reasonable it sounds.

Which still, by the way, doesn't answer the question how Durge would defeat Sion. I'm waiting for an answer.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This Harbinger crap again? We have no proof that the Harbinger got destroyed or that he was on it. Although we lack any proof it is also not logical to assume that he doesn't need to breathe or that he swam through space.

Oh, right. Let me check.
Anything in the asteroid field exploded - with exception of the Harbinger which we saw caught in the middle of the explosion. Then Sion wasn't on it - and neither on the mining facility - because we can't allow him to be caught in an explosion like that and survive. So instead of "swimming through space" he did use force teleport to beam himself into the next inhabited star system in order to survive without a scratch, I suppose.

And of course it's absolutely illogical to assume that "a walking corpse", that has cheated death on countless occassions, with most of them probably spawning from massive lightsaber hits and other traumata (apparently he had his bones grinded into shreds and the like), that existed in the state of an "undead" with his skin decomposing, would be inable to survive the blast of an explosion or exposure to vacuum. Not that we've seen both things being survived by some Jedi that lacked Sion's abilities. And let's also ingore that even space age medical equipment can't determine whether he's alive or not.


But no...that can't happen because it would torpede your points, with "your points" actually being speculation regarding the limits of Sion's immortality and nothing else. This while not a iota of evidence being inserted to this debate for Durge being able to defeat Sion in the first place, which would be the prerequisite for the validity of any argument regarding Sion's immortality. "First things first", as the proverb says.