Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Whether right or not, there's a growing trend IRL to say that Atheism or alternatively agnosticism is the "logical choice".

But what about comics? In a world where Angels, Demons, and all manner of mythotheological beings walk the Earth how can a sane, intelligent person like Mister Terrific stay atheist? FFS he was inspired to become a superhero due to the advice of the Spectre.

There are other examples I'm sure, but his is the most glaring.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Whether right or not, there's a growing trend IRL to say that Atheism or alternatively agnosticism is the "logical choice".

But what about comics? In a world where Angels, Demons, and all manner of mythotheological beings walk the Earth how can a sane, intelligent person like Mister Terrific stay atheist? FFS he was inspired to become a superhero due to the advice of the Spectre.

There are other examples I'm sure, but his is the most glaring.

Mr. Terrific accepts that the Spectre exists, he just views him as a being who's made of/uses unusual forms of energy not currently fully understood. Which is a fairly rational stance, considering how most superpowers have vague explanations at best, and I think Batman's stance isn't much different. In other words Mr. Terrific accepts what's there, he just takes a secular stance on it's nature.

Dr. 13, on the other hand, doesn't accept magic as existing at all. This is fairly irrational and can only be maintained because he more-or-less has an anti-magic aura around him that keeps him from meeting magic, according to the Phantom Stranger.


Mr. Terrific's bent is quite rational and explains the DC world just fine, while Dr. 13's is not (at least not since he got folded into the DCU proper, he was invented more separately).

Noh-varr knows a mathematical equation which proves god doesn't exist, so there is that.

Originally posted by Bentley
Noh-varr knows a mathematical equation which proves god doesn't exist, so there is that.

and Gorgon knows a mathematical equation which proves he does, so there is that as well.

It's a reflection of the industry in general. A fairly significant portion of industry giants are secularist/atheist/agnostic, and by extension, some have no problem reflecting that in their works.

Originally posted by Q99
Mr. Terrific accepts that the Spectre exists, he just views him as a being who's made of/uses unusual forms of energy not currently fully understood. Which is a fairly rational stance, considering how most superpowers have vague explanations at best, and I think Batman's stance isn't much different. In other words Mr. Terrific accepts what's there, he just takes a secular stance on it's nature.

Dr. 13, on the other hand, doesn't accept magic as existing at all. This is fairly irrational and can only be maintained because he more-or-less has an anti-magic aura around him that keeps him from meeting magic, according to the Phantom Stranger.


Mr. Terrific's bent is quite rational and explains the DC world just fine, while Dr. 13's is not (at least not since he got folded into the DCU proper, he was invented more separately). Personally I think that his stance is ridiculous. It's almost akin to closing your eyes, covering your ears and going "lalalalala, I can't hear you"

Under Jurgen's pen, Odin and Thor acknowledged "God" and that he was superior to their kind. Odin sent the real Jake Olsen's soul to Heaven IRCC.

Originally posted by dmills
Personally I think that his stance is ridiculous. It's almost akin to closing your eyes, covering your ears and going "lalalalala, I can't hear you"

mhmm

So he uses creationist tactics.

Whenever Thor has strong feelings of self doubt, he's for that time an atheist.

He need's to believe in himself again to become a theist.


Though seriously. I was going to say "When you're best friend's with thor it's kinda hard to not believe in gods." Then I thought, well, "what about thor himself?" And instantly those jokes above popped into my head.

Heh.

Thor has faced that problem. He didn't know who to pray to as he was the religion.

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/IntelligentMedic18.jpg

The best Thor can do is pray to Odin or something similar.

Which is basically "By my dad!"

Originally posted by dmills
Personally I think that his stance is ridiculous. It's almost akin to closing your eyes, covering your ears and going "lalalalala, I can't hear you"

But, in Dr. 13's case it actually causes magic to stay away from him, so at least it's practical for all it's silliness

Originally posted by Creshosk
Whenever Thor has strong feelings of self doubt, he's for that time an atheist.

He need's to believe in himself again to become a theist.


Though seriously. I was going to say "When you're best friend's with thor it's kinda hard to not believe in gods." Then I thought, well, "what about thor himself?" And instantly those jokes above popped into my head.

I think in the realm of comics you have even more reason to doubt there's an actual Biblical God and not just another super powerful thing messin' up someone barbecue. Real life's kinda got it good in that there's no crazy variables like that. Imagine the effects of people going to church and finding out the crazy guy from creeper Avengers team did half the stuff in the Bible and Thor, who ended up being real, just beat him to death with a hammer.

I don't know how any superhero in marvel could be part of christianity or other current religions. They've all seen who the upper echelons of the universe's management are, and it sure isn't Jesus or angels. At least thanks to time travel there aren't any creationist superheroes.

In a What If, Korvac stopped Jesus from interfering with earth using a force field.

Just like in the real world the Bible can't be taken literally, its nothing but a bunch of fables and tales of morality... but it terms of broad strokes, it would be difficult to argue against the big picture. Sure the earth isn't 6000 years old, and evolution can't really be argued but in Marvel / DC the soul is a real concrete thing, we know that several heaven and hell dimensions exist and creation seems to have an architect. That's Christianity... without all the useless fluff in the Bible. Average Joe citizen in Marvel / DC likely doesn't know this, but most if not all of the hero community does... seems pig headed to ignore it.

I think Marvel "God" offed himself though... which is what caused creation to happen in the first place.

As threeboot Brainiac 5 can tell you, the soul is just an energy signature. Which he can trap in a forcefield. And then successfully revive the individual with. SCIENCE!

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
and Gorgon knows a mathematical equation which proves he does, so there is that as well.


Noh-varr's maths are better

it's the same equation. Noh Var jsut used: -(...)

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Just like in the real world the Bible can't be taken literally, its nothing but a bunch of fables and tales of morality...


Tell that crass generalisation to approximately 1/3 of the world's population.

Originally posted by willRules
Tell that crass generalisation to approximately 1/3 of the world's population.

Not even 1/6th of the population is Christian, and even then a HUGE percentage of them don't take the 99% Bible literally.

And this goes back to the OP. I think it's an industry thing that's reflected in the medium. Hell just look at most of the responses here. This is how a large portion of comic subculture thinks.

I think it's a refreshing point of view to see fleshed out, after the hordes of religious references, characters and literal gods that characters themselves are, or see frequently.

That being said, what separates a character like Superman from being a god if Thor is? Little more than a title.

Similarly, the DCU has many abstract forces to reckon with. If they were real, how would we separate the ones that carry religious context from the ones that are entirely alien in nature? I don't think, from a perspective such as Mr. Terrific's, that it would be entirely possible.

Put like that, it makes sense. But then again, for all the random supermen, cosmic beings and artifacts of power, both Marvel and DC have a person where the buck stops with them. TOAA and Source (?)

Thor is a small God from a small world.

I would think they would just view all of the various gods as simply powerful aliens who call themselves gods.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I would think they would just view all of the various gods as simply powerful aliens who call themselves gods.
I can understand that. But at a certain point it becomes utter lunacy to make such distinctions. Take the Living Tribunal, he's so powerful that even if he doesn't conform to your preconceived notions of God as per the standard Abrahamic traditions he's as close to a God as you're likely to ever meet.

Why not call him a God? What does he need in your eyes to earn that title? Same for the Spectre's boss. Why can't Mister Terrific call Him God?

what's the point of calling the LT god? if you're gonna water down the absolute and eternal quality of the concept, why not come down to something less remote, a power that does have a day-to-day impact, in the comic universe... say The Phoenix Force or something.

God is meant to be the ultimate answer, not an interim fix.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I can understand that. But at a certain point it becomes utter lunacy to make such distinctions. Take the Living Tribunal, he's so powerful that even if he doesn't conform to your preconceived notions of God as per the standard Abrahamic traditions he's as close to a God as you're likely to ever meet.

Why not call him a God? What does he need in your eyes to earn that title? Same for the Spectre's boss. Why can't Mister Terrific call Him God?

You're basically just defining the title of god to be anything powerful enough. That doesn't really work. Would you call the AIM scientists gods for making a cosmic cube?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You're basically just defining the title of god to be anything powerful enough. That doesn't really work. Would you call the AIM scientists gods for making a cosmic cube?
I'm asking what makes a God if not power/knowledge. The word becomes meaningless unless it has some kind of concrete definition.

There's a quote from a Futurama game that sums up my view quite nicely:
"You found me out... I'm not really a god... I'm * cough* * cough* just an ordinary... Eternal, omniscient, superintelligent being."

I'm reminded when Genis-Vell decided to call himself a god on the basis that, hey, he's stronger than the Norse gods (who at the time had Asgard parked over NYC) and has cosmic knowledge.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm reminded when Genis-Vell decided to call himself a god on the basis that, hey, he's stronger than the Norse gods (who at the time had Asgard parked over NYC) and has cosmic knowledge.
Honestly in absence of a true Objective definition a God must be defined subjectively.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Honestly in absence of a true Objective definition a God must be defined subjectively. *looks in dictionary*

noun: any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force

Would that make the phoenix force a god?

The norse deitys are worshipped.

The abstractsd control aspects of "life".

Originally posted by Q99
Mr. Terrific accepts that the Spectre exists, he just views him as a being who's made of/uses unusual forms of energy not currently fully understood. Which is a fairly rational stance, considering how most superpowers have vague explanations at best, and I think Batman's stance isn't much different. In other words Mr. Terrific accepts what's there, he just takes a secular stance on it's nature.


I think the Presence would take a dim view of such non-divine interpretations. In the DC universe, unbelievers like Mr. Terrific and Batman are probably destined for hell when they die. Not Supes though.

Originally posted by Q99
Dr. 13, on the other hand, doesn't accept magic as existing at all. This is fairly irrational and can only be maintained because he more-or-less has an anti-magic aura around him that keeps him from meeting magic, according to the Phantom Stranger.


Doesn't he ever watch television? The news broadcasts in DC must be full of such magic stuff.

Originally posted by Bentley
Noh-varr's maths are better

Yeah, Gorgon is kind of dumb and probably doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. His equation is probably the equivalent of 5 + 5 = 42. I'd trust Noh-Varr's maths over Gorgon's any day.

What about believing in God but not the books or religions that claim to speak on God's behalf.

Originally posted by basilisk
I think the Presence would take a dim view of such non-divine interpretations. In the DC universe, unbelievers like Mr. Terrific and Batman are probably destined for hell when they die. Not Supes though.

If we go by Sandman, Hell is for those who believe in it.

Personally I doubt the Presence particularly cares, though some angels might.




Also his daughter is a mage.

Maybe his magic-aversion field extends to what news shows he happens to see? That or none of the TV shown magic is testably real.

Originally posted by basilisk
I think the Presence would take a dim view of such non-divine interpretations. In the DC universe, unbelievers like Mr. Terrific and Batman are probably destined for hell when they die. Not Supes though.


You really think DC's God would cast Bruce n Micheal into hell for not believing in him despite their actions, intention, will n efforts? Man thats a self centered n petty anal god.

Good thing I don't believe in him either!

Total atheism is obviously false in DC and Marvel comics since we've seen that the Norse and Greek gods definitely exist (though questioning if they deserve the title of "god" is pretty reasonable, they're not exactly at the top of the food chain).

On the other hand arguments against, to pick a popular example, Christianity are just as valid in popular comics as in real life. The same lack of evidence of the Christian god is there as IRL. You can't say that "the Greek gods exist so the Christian god must also exist" either, that's as silly as saying that since deer and unicorns both have four feet we should assume that both exist.

In other settings not believing in the Christian god is clearly wrong (though in many cases the arguments are still valid). The Sandman/Lucifer world does have Yaweh.

Originally posted by basilisk
I think the Presence would take a dim view of such non-divine interpretations. In the DC universe, unbelievers like Mr. Terrific and Batman are probably destined for hell when they die.
When Mister Terrific was considering suicide the Spectre stopped him and convinced him that he should use his talents to become a hero rather than throwing his life away senselessly. Clearly the Spectre's boss has some plans for Michael Holt and I very much doubt they involve him going to Hell.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
When Mister Terrific was considering suicide the Spectre stopped him and convinced him that he should use his talents to become a hero rather than throwing his life away senselessly. Clearly the Spectre's boss has some plans for Michael Holt and I very much doubt they involve him going to Hell.

...at least, not until He has made use of him!

Originally posted by Entity
You really think DC's God would cast Bruce n Micheal into hell for not believing in him despite their actions, intention, will n efforts? Man thats a self centered n petty anal god.

Good thing I don't believe in him either!

Some types of christians (and many muslims) believe that any unbeliever, no matter how good, loving, or unselfish a life they have lived, will still go to hell. Others believe that rather than going to hell the good unbelievers just die and go to oblivion and nothingness rather than heaven. Others see God as more forgiving and giving them a final chance to accept God when they are judged, or something along those lines.

^

DC kind of covered their bases on that one though when they explained in Sandman and Lucifer that hell was merely a process people had to go through before they went to heaven and it was a place to live for the people who didn't want to go to heaven like the serial killers etc. etc. who where proud of what they had done.

Originally posted by GGS
^

DC kind of covered their bases on that one though when they explained in Sandman and Lucifer that hell was merely a process people had to go through before they went to heaven and it was a place to live for the people who didn't want to go to heaven like the serial killers etc. etc. who where proud of what they had done.

What was it like for the serial killers - a punishment or just a place to go?

Here's a question: Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast into hell. Then as Satan he tempts people into doing evil and not following the path of God. So why exactly does he then punish them for eternity in hell? If he likes evil so much why doesn't he reward it and get everyone to be evil instead of following God, instead of punishing evildoers and scaring people into following God, which is probably doing what God wants?

Originally posted by basilisk
What was it like for the serial killers - a punishment or just a place to go?

Here's a question: Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast into hell. Then as Satan he tempts people into doing evil and not following the path of God. So why exactly does he then punish them for eternity in hell? If he likes evil so much why doesn't he reward it and get everyone to be evil instead of following God, instead of punishing evildoers and scaring people into following God, which is probably doing what God wants?
Gaiman's Lucifer actually doesn't do the whole stereotypical soul-trading business. In fact he doesn't seem to care much about people's salvation.

He abdicates the Throne of Hell when he realizes that he's just a pawn in God's game.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Gaiman's Lucifer actually doesn't do the whole stereotypical soul-trading business. In fact he doesn't seem to care much about people's salvation.

He abdicates the Throne of Hell when he realizes that he's just a pawn in God's game.


Gaiman's Lucifer>Bible Satan

Originally posted by amnesia
Gaiman's Lucifer>Bible Satan
Because he's not based on the Biblical Satan, he's based on John Milton's Lucifer.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Because he's not based on the Biblical Satan, he's based on John Milton's Lucifer.

And Paradise Lost is based on the Bible.

Look, I think the point most people are totally missing here is this: Gorgon was a mutant genius-level intellect. Noh-Varr was an alien Kree from an alternate reality, where laws and cosmology may very well differ. Besides, Aaron wrote that issue, so it really is kind of a subtle if profound joke, because in his Ghost Rider run, the Christian God is very much real...

In marvel has the idea of a one and total god been established? Would the person who thanos refers to in Marvel: The End count? Cuz if so the idea of a totally omnipotent god has been referenced in both companies.

Although it confuses me how Quasar is an atheist when he knows a couple gods himself.

Heh. Not sure how I missed this when it was made. Anyway.

1. I'm not sure why the Thor's and Pantheons and such are even popping up here as an argument. The clear idea is "God" as opposed to gods. Anyone saying something akin to "Hercules exist in Marvel so atheism is completely illogical" isn't grasping the issue enough to contribute meaningfully. The fact that Thor once mused that he didn't know who to pray to is a wonderfully poignant take on it. Same with abstracts and such, who are incomprehensibly powerful, but still clearly limited.

2. Enough ineffable, omnipotent, all-seeing type of entities exist in the comic universes that it would make sense for many of the heroes who are aware of them to be theist, though certainly not of any religion we currently have on our earth.

3. That, however, doesn't rule out atheist tendencies or make them illogical, since a single all-consuming, all-knowing, all-etc. being is hard to pinpoint in either universe, at least from the perspective of most heroes. Even abstracts like Spectre and LT only represent higher forms of power, not "God" in the sense that an atheist would disavow belief in. Even a being who creates a universe, for example, would be that universe's creator but wouldn't be the deific "source" of Creation itself.

4. No more atheists exist in comics than we'd expect from a reasonable pool of people on Earth. About 15-18% of the world's population is non-religious, according to the best census data we have available to us, with anywhere from 2-4% being atheist. Attempts to paint comics as secular, imo, are misleading, as there are far more "neutrals" or those of some faith, than those with a pronounced lack of belief. And if we're to use Mr. Terrific as our guinea pig, he's often undermined by those claiming a belief in a higher power, or forced to scrutinize his beliefs due to outside events, usually without a clear justification of his position. If anything, I see him as much an endorsement of some kind of belief as any overtly religious character. I've read JSA for a long time, and have never seen him as a secular propoganda piece for writers, but rather a mirror for other characters to examine their own beliefs and attitudes. If others believe otherwise, cool, but I'd ask for reasons why that use examples from the comics themselves. Because foils enhance each other's characteristics in writing, so juxtaposing him with Spectre so often is a great way to create character drama. But it could be seen just as easily as an endorsement of theism because of Spectre, but the interpretation lies with the reader...it's impossible to pinpoint a specific agenda from the comics themselves.

5. Speaking of census data, yes, about 1/3 of the world's population is Christian. Whether or not they're practicing is its own matter, but if pressed to label themselves, that's about how many would list themselves as such.

6. I'm atheist, and based on my own justifications for my belief system, I'd still consider myself an atheist in at least the Marvel universe. DC, with their Biblical-style pantheons and frequent refernces to God via characters like Spectre, would be a different matter, as they seem to give numerous characters frequent justification for belief (though the concept of a multiverse and omniverse in both companies throws even some of that under considerable scrutiny). So take from that what you will. It's anecdotal, admittedly so, but used to exemplify the idea that it wouldn't be impossible to justify such a position in either universe.

.As for a fixed Supreme God, I think the One-Above-All could count...but this entity, though established to be the Creator of the Marvel Multiverse, and vastly powerful, is still somewhat vague and not frequently referenced by name..

I'm under the impression that Mister Terrific wants to believe in a higher power but can't find himself to do so. Though he did take up Pieter's offer of attending Sunday Service at least once. Off topic, but Mr. T is a damn cool character.

Has anyone posted the short conversation between Terrific and Zauriel (i think it was)?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Has anyone posted the short conversation between Terrific and Zauriel (i think it was)?
Zauriel: "Hi Terrific."
Terrific: "What are you still doing here? I wrote a thesis definitively disproving the existence of God two days ago."
Zauriel: "Huh." Disappears in a puff of logic.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm under the impression that Mister Terrific wants to believe in a higher power but can't find himself to do so. Though he did take up Pieter's offer of attending Sunday Service at least once. Off topic, but Mr. T is a damn cool character.
Sure is. T-Spheres and Tech invisibility give him one of the more unique powersets in comics today.