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John McClane is doing his thing in Nakatomi, pwning terrorists left and right. Little does he know that Hans' chief henchman is John Preston. Hans is "checking the explosives" and is confronted by McClane. Remember? Mac had given Hans his pistol, Hans points it at McClane, and click, no bullets:

Mac "No bullets. You think I'm stupid, Hans?"

*ding, elevator arrives*

Hans "You were saying?"

*Mac takes off at a run, to his left, towards cover, spraying the elevator as he goes. Inside the elevator is Preston, not Karl and the others*

McClane has his Beretta, his MP5, and is at full strength. Obviously this is to the death. Preston is armed with his twin pistols.



Now, for those of you who are gonna cry "spite" at this, think long and hard how McClane fights.

Think long and hard how Prestons opponents from "Equilibrium" fight.

Think long and hard about how Gun Kata works.

I'll play Johnny Boy

And, based on your arguments in the Hit-Girl and Wesley-Gibson threads, John will lose

They're both John haermm

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
They're both John haermm

And so are you

The latter John wins

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The latter John wins

Here's how this fight would go down....

Mac "No bullets. You think I'm stupid, Hans?"

*ding, elevator arrives*

Hans "You were saying?"

*Mac takes off at a run, to his left, towards cover, spraying the elevator as he goes. Inside the elevator is Preston, not Karl and the others*

Mac attains cover. Preston exits the elevator, doing the Hustle:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/johntravolta5-1.jpg

McClane leans from behind his cover and fires wildly at Preston, totally unpredictable, spraying the entire area. Preston continues doing the Hustle:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/5269311-1.jpg

And goes down as 9mm MP5 fire rakes his body. As he lays there dying, McClane walks over, draws his Beretta, puts two in Prestons head.

McClane says "Yippee Kay Ay, mother****er", lights a cigarette and walks away, then saves the day.

You just hate Preston, don't you

No, I love the Preston. Thing is, most fail to realize that Preston is only that good in his world. In a world like McClanes, he's barely above average.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, I love the Preston. Thing is, most fail to realize that Preston is only that good in his world. In a world like McClanes, he's barely above average.

..interesting

How so?

Originally posted by Lestov16
You just hate Preston, don't you

Not hate. But when he gets it in his head that a character must die, then the nonsense ensues.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not hate. But when he gets it in his head that a character must die, then the nonsense ensues.

Cosign to the power of infinity.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not hate. But when he gets it in his head that a character must die, then the nonsense ensues. Bullshit and you know it haermm You know better than that.

This thread was made for a purpose. You aren't commenting on the matchup because you know the consequences if you do.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Bullshit and you know it haermm You know better than that.

This thread was made for a purpose. You aren't commenting on the matchup because you know the consequences if you do.

I'm not commenting for obvious reasons, it would be ridiculous for me to do so, as you're already made up your mind that a truly capable combatant like John Preston is nothing much.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not commenting for obvious reasons, it would be ridiculous for me to do so, as you're already made up your mind that a truly capable combatant like John Preston is nothing much. Mhm, I know your obvious reasons. The real reason, that is, and I understand.

John Preston is a God in his world, that's it. In McClane's world, or Riggs' world, or HG/Mariachi/SEU Smith's world, he's just an above average cop.

In all seriousness, McClane would wtf pwn Preston. You know it and I know it.

I just told told you the exact reason, you chimp and you just backed it up.

An "above average cop" doesn't have his speed, agility; can avoid bullets with ease, isn't a master with a blade, can shoot multiple people without looking at them; can memorize the exact locations of people in a dark room from just a bunch of whispers etc.

That argument can be applied to most any character, "In their world they're...", it's lame.

Originally posted by Robtard
I just told told you the exact reason, you chimp and you just backed it up.

An "above average cop" doesn't have his speed, agility; can avoid bullets with ease, isn't a master with a blade, can shoot multiple people without looking at them; can memorize the exact locations of people in a dark room from just a bunch of whispers etc.

That argument can be applied to most any character, "In their world they're...", it's lame.


haermm Nah. Preston uses gun kata. Gun kata relies on the following:

1. Being able to memorize the locations of the shooters.

2. Predicting the trajectory of their incoming fire to do two things: Avoid being hit, and returning fire.

3. The opponents standing in one spot for an entire gun battle.



Now.....McClane uses cover and is always on the move. This prevents Preston from memorizing his location.

No memory of McClane's location= No way of being able to predict the trajectory of McClanes incoming fire.



See that? See how gun kata is useless in a modern day gun fight?

John Preston just tools all over him.

John Preston stomps anyone who RJ is a fanboy of

Originally posted by Omega Spawn
John Preston stomps anyone who RJ is a fanboy of

Yeah? So he defeats Wesley Gibson, Fox (Wanted), a Jedi Master, Voldemort? Really?

Get over your boner for me and take a reality pill, babe.



Originally posted by Quincy
John Preston just tools all over him.


Mhm, screen feats be damned eh? This:

Preston uses gun kata. Gun kata relies on the following:

1. Being able to memorize the locations of the shooters.

2. Predicting the trajectory of their incoming fire to do two things: Avoid being hit, and returning fire.

3. The opponents standing in one spot for an entire gun battle.



Now.....McClane uses cover and is always on the move. This prevents Preston from memorizing his location.

No memory of McClane's location= No way of being able to predict the trajectory of McClanes incoming fire.



See that? See how gun kata is useless in a modern day gun fight?


Deal with it. Preston loses here. UNLESS you can quote a time when Preston defeated someone who did not just stand in one spot like an idiot, firing away, waiting to be shot, not even trying to reach cover.

Go ahead, make some shit up, I'll wait.

John Preston is a Wanted Jedi Master who owns Voldemort

his gun kata is the force therefore he pwns all

Ah, I see, you can't quote a time when Preston defeated someone who did not just stand in one spot like an idiot, firing away, waiting to be shot, not even trying to reach cover, so you're trolling. I gotcha. haermm

It's OK, I understand, troll away.

Your pushing your luck with this thread.

Not really, what haven't I covered?

Tell me, you think Prestons gun kata is gonna work on McClane?

Reality check: McClane's "avoiding death" only works inside of his world because, in reality, all of that automatic gunfire would have killed him when he was hiding under the desks in several scenes. And, when someone's spraying a fully automatic gun at you, you don't just jump out and avoid all of the gunfire.

Realistically, John McClane would have been dead the first gunfight he had, in the Nakatomi building.


So, none of his gunfire avoidance works in a match-up due to the stupidity of 80s action flicks having automatic gunfire miss someone from mere feet away.


It all comes down to who's faster and who is the better shot, by the ridiculously stupid and asinine rules that RJ made up for the thread. Since Preston is a better shot, even when he's not looking, and he's absurdly faster than McClane, the winner is obvious.



This thread should be closed for spite/trolling...however, that's entirely up to Imp.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Reality check: McClane's "avoiding death" only works inside of his world because, in reality, all of that automatic gunfire would have killed him when he was hiding under the desks in several scenes. And, when someone's spraying a fully automatic gun at you, you don't just jump out and avoid all of the gunfire.

Realistically, John McClane would have been dead the first gunfight he had, in the Nakatomi building.


So, none of his gunfire avoidance works in a match-up due to the stupidity of 80s action flicks having automatic gunfire miss someone from mere feet away.


It all comes down to who's faster and who is the better shot, by the ridiculously stupid and asinine rules that RJ made up for the thread. Since Preston is a better shot, even when he's not looking, and he's absurdly faster than McClane, the winner is obvious.



This thread should be closed for spite/trolling...however, that's entirely up to Imp.

Did you not read the OP? The fight takes place in Nakatomi, what happened there (McClane hiding behind desks to avoid gunfire) applies here. McClane avoided automatic throughout most of the movie, from multiple shooters. And yeah, you say "And, when someone's spraying a fully automatic gun at you, you don't just jump out and avoid all of the gunfire", I say "And, you don't just dance around and avoid gunfire either." McClanes feats were over the top, but no moreso than Prestons.

What's wrong with the rules of this thread? You want me to have McClane stand in one spot and fie away like Prestons opponents in Equilibrium did?

No, Mac is a better shot. Remember in DH3 when he shot the power line down with a snub nose revolver from 50ish feet away? Preston is a better shot when his opponents are standing still, I'll give him that.

Preston is indeed faster on the draw, but this isn't a duel at ten paces, dude.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Did you not read the OP? The fight takes place in Nakatomi, what happened there (McClane hiding behind desks to avoid gunfire) applies here. McClane avoided automatic throughout most of the movie, from multiple shooters. And yeah, you say "And, when someone's spraying a fully automatic gun at you, you don't just jump out and avoid all of the gunfire", I say "And, you don't just dance around and avoid gunfire either." McClanes feats were over the top, but no moreso than Prestons.

What's wrong with the rules of this thread? You want me to have McClane stand in one spot and fie away like Prestons opponents in Equilibrium did?

No, Mac is a better shot. Remember in DH3 when he shot the power line down with a snub nose revolver from 50ish feet away? Preston is a better shot when his opponents are standing still, I'll give him that.

Preston is indeed faster on the draw, but this isn't a duel at ten paces, dude.

You didn't read what I posted else you would understand that "The fight takes place in Nakatomi, what happened there (McClane hiding behind desks to avoid gunfire) applies here..." wouldn't apply based on the abitrary asinine rules you imposed on Preston would also apply to McClane in a similar fashion.


Re-read what I posted.


Until you say, "yes, you're right, dadudemon", everything you post will be ignored.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You didn't read what I posted else you would understand that "The fight takes place in Nakatomi, what happened there (McClane hiding behind desks to avoid gunfire) applies here..." wouldn't apply based on the abitrary asinine rules you imposed on Preston would also apply to McClane in a similar fashion.


Re-read what I posted.


Until you say, "yes, you're right, dadudemon", everything you post will be ignored.

So hiding behind a desk to avoid being hit by gunfire is that unbelievable? haermm Are you serious? It's cover, dude. Behind a desk, around a corner, behind a pillar, whatever, all cover. McClane regularly takes cover in his gunfights and is always on the move. In this fight it is as same as the movie.

Elevator arrives with Preston inside.

McClane takes off at a sprint away from the elevator, spraying the hallway outside the elevator.

Preston steps out. He must hunt down McClane and kill him.


Now...You saying that Preston is incapable of doing this? Seems like you are wanting me to have McClane just stand there, like you want the fight to be on a floor that has absolutely zero cover.

If you DO think Preston can hunt McClane down and kill him, you need to explain how he does so. How does he hunt down McClane, who will undoubtedly take cover and not stand in one spot and fire back?

They were both on earth. What different worlds are we talking about.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
They were both on earth. What different worlds are we talking about.

The ones RJ makes up in his head when he needs to BS an argument.

ie John Preston can only avoid bullets in his world.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
They were both on earth. What different worlds are we talking about. "Different worlds" is an expression, dude. Preston does not exist in McClanes world, and vice versa. "Different worlds."

Lemmee ask you this: The men that Preston fought (In Equilibrium), all of them, the sense offenders, the clerics, all of them, they seemed to generally stand in one spot and fire back at him, right?

Preston would absolutely destroy McClane.

Originally posted by Impediment
Preston would absolutely destroy McClane.


best post up in here

Originally posted by Impediment
Preston would absolutely destroy McClane.


Only if McClane stands stock still You know, like everyone else Preston fought But McClane aint gonna stand still, isn't that right?


Challenge time: Name me one time, one single scene in "Equilibrium", where Preston defeated someone of McClane's caliber while they were behind cover, blasting away UNPREDICTABLY with a machine gun.


Tick tock....tick tock.....tick tock.....

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Only if McClane stands stock still You know, like everyone else Preston fought But McClane aint gonna stand still, isn't that right?


Challenge time: Name me one time, one single scene in "Equilibrium", where Preston defeated someone of McClane's caliber while they were behind cover, blasting away UNPREDICTABLY with a machine gun.


Tick tock....tick tock.....tick tock.....

Weren't you the one arguing that it took Preston two aims/shots to kill the Police Caption, because he was on the move? Yea, you did.

If McClane is 'under cover and blasting away unpredictably', his position would be known and therefore calculable under Gunkata; if Preston can avoid 20+ machine-guns, he certainly can avoid one.

Ding, your turkey's done.

"McClane's caliber"? Are you kidding?

Every person in Equilibrium is light years ahead of McClane's h2h/weapon skills.

Originally posted by Impediment
"McClane's caliber"? Are you kidding?

Every person in Equilibrium is light years ahead of McClane's h2h/weapon skills.

Everyone is Equilibrium was cannon fodder. Lemmee try this a different way. You were a soldier, right? See any combat?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Everyone is Equilibrium was cannon fodder. Lemmee try this a different way. You were a soldier, right? See any combat?

I'd recommend you stop there with that question. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about in terms of things in the military especially military in real life.

If you're going to argue your point at least do it right.

And I say this without actually trying to debate or start an argument with you.

Originally posted by Kaibs
I'd recommend you stop there with that question. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about in terms of things in the military especially military in real life.

If you're going to argue your point at least do it right.

I'll take it under advisement

It's a rhetorical question, I know for a fact that he has seen action.

Ahh okay then. As I said in my previous post. I was just hoping you weren't going somewhere stupid and senseless with that question you had is all.

Originally posted by Kaibs
Ahh okay then. As I said in my previous post. I was just hoping you weren't going somewhere stupid and senseless with that question you had is all. No, I am going somewhere with it, but not stupid and senseless.

Here, maybe this will help.

hztH-GRUyec&feature=related

See? In real life gunfights, people use cover.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Tell me, you think Prestons gun kata is gonna work on McClane?

Why do you insist on making McClane a high-level street? He's not on Batman's level, forget Preston.

Originally posted by Darth Martin


Why do you insist on making McClane a high-level street? He's not on Batman's level, forget Preston.

Yeah, McClane is a joke He's only got 4 damn movies of kicking the shit outta terrorists.

Challenge time: Name me one time, one single scene in "Equilibrium", where Preston defeated someone of McClane's caliber while they were behind cover, blasting away UNPREDICTABLY with a machine gun.


There is none. Thanks for playing

Originally posted by Robtard
Weren't you the one arguing that it took Preston two aims/shots to kill the Police Caption, because he was on the move? Yea, you did.

If McClane is 'under cover and blasting away unpredictably', his position would be known and therefore calculable under Gunkata; if Preston can avoid 20+ machine-guns, he certainly can avoid one.

Ding, your turkey's done.
Mhm, and in the time it takes Preston to adjust his aim, McClane'll end him.

Yeah, I did. Read the OP. Read when the fight starts. Mac has attained cover, Preston must hunt him down and kill him.

Preston avoided 20+ machine guns because he knew where/when/how they would attack. Wait, I already said that. AND they were standing in one spot like idiots, just begging to be shot.

Tell me, how's Preston gonna shoot THROUGH whatever McClane has taken cover behind? Hmm?

Here's what happens in a real life gun battle, here's what happens in the gunfights in Die Hard:



U9G2iS7gk4Q


People go for cover. Preston has never, not once, fought someone under these conditions. All of the people Preston fights, every stinking one, stand there like statues begging to be shot.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Mhm, and in the time it takes Preston to adjust his aim, McClane'll end him.

Yeah, I did. Read the OP. Read when the fight starts. Mac has attained cover, Preston must hunt him down and kill him.

Preston avoided 20+ machine guns because he knew where/when/how they would attack. Wait, I already said that. AND they were standing in one spot like idiots, just begging to be shot.

Tell me, how's Preston gonna shoot THROUGH whatever McClane has taken cover behind? Hmm?

Here's what happens in a real life gun battle, here's what happens in the gunfights in Die Hard:

People go for cover. Preston has never, not once, fought someone under these conditions. All of the people Preston fights, every stinking one, stand there like statues begging to be shot.

Sounds like a catered scenario. But if McClane's already secured himself and is making a stand, waiting for Preston to find him, then he's not going to be moving about, like you implied before.

Depends, what has McClane taken cover behind I assume a desk or a file cabinet, considering it's an office building. Preston's twin autos can shoot straight through people, an office desk or file cabinet should prove no problem.

Except in the hallway scene when some of the machine-gun toting guards where using the pillars as temp cover and Preston managed to **** their shit up just fine.

So what we have per you scenario: McClane is hiding behind some piece of office furniture and waiting for Preston to find him. Not sure how that counters Preston's ability to avoid gun-fire while simultaneously returning fire in an ultra-deadly fashion.

Originally posted by Robtard
Sounds like a catered scenario. But if McClane's already secured himself and is making a stand, waiting for Preston to find him, then he's not going to be moving about, like you implied before.

Depends, what has McClane taken cover behind I assume a desk or a file cabinet, considering it's an office building. Preston's twin autos can shoot straight through people, an office desk or file cabinet should prove no problem.

Except in the hallway scene when some of the machine-gun toting guards where using the pillars as temp cover and Preston managed to **** their shit up just fine.

So what we have per you scenario: McClane is hiding behind some piece of office furniture and waiting for Preston to find him. Not sure how that counters Preston's ability to avoid gun-fire while simultaneously returning fire in an ultra-deadly fashion.

Hans and Karl tried in vain to shoot McClane with 9mm fire, ping ping ping the rounds bounced off the desk. Preston uses 9mm ammo. Ping ping ping his bullets will bounce off too. Try again.


No, the cops in the hallway made no attempt to take cover. Look again:

-1fIe80SVSo

They either stood stock still, or they came running at him. This is fact and is non debatable, it's right there in the vid.

Now, ask yourself this question: In the above vid, what would have happened if all the cops had taken cover behind something Preston couldn't shoot through instead of walking right into his bullets? Hmm?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Hans and Karl tried in vain to shoot McClane with 9mm fire, ping ping ping the rounds bounced off the desk. Preston uses 9mm ammo. Ping ping ping his bullets will bounce off too. Try again.


No, the cops in the hallway made no attempt to take cover. Look again:


They either stood stock still, or they came running at him. This is fact and is non debatable, it's right there in the vid.

Now, ask yourself this question: In the above vid, what would have happened if all the cops had taken cover behind something Preston couldn't shoot through instead of walking right into his bullets? Hmm?


This is were we use your "in their world" debate-angle back at you. In the Diehard universe, 9mm bullets can't go through simple desk and file cabinets, Preston's bullets are from his universe though; they go right through people like butter and into marble walls; an office desk or file cabinet will pose no problem. On in laymen terms, "no ping, ping, ping", just "ahhhh, I'm dead".

At 1:03 and 1:13, you see cops come out of cover. So okay.

He would have kept advancing, while avoiding the gunfire (as he's shown) until he had a visual and would have shot them.

Originally posted by Robtard
This is were we use your "in their world" debate-angle back at you. In the Diehard universe, 9mm bullets can't go through simple desk and file cabinets, Preston's bullets are from his universe though; they go right through people like butter and into marble walls; an office desk or file cabinet will pose no problem. On in laymen terms, "no ping, ping, ping", just "ahhhh", dead.

Then apparently the metal in Nakatomi is like uber and stuff

Metal is stronger than flesh and bone, dude. And as far as the bullets going into marble walls, hell, even a pissant .22 will hit a marble wall and imbed itself.

Try again.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Then apparently the metal in Nakatomi is like uber and stuff

Metal is stronger than flesh and bone, dude. And as far as the bullets going into marble walls, hell, even a pissant .22 will hit a marble wall and imbed itself.

Try again.

No, dude. Fail. Accept your debate-angle thrown back in your face. Office furniture isn't stopping Preston's guns.

Some metal. A body will resist a bullet better than sheet-metal, as an example. But a .22 will not go through a body and into the marble behind it.

Don't need to try again. You catered a scenario where you thought you could kill Preston; it's blown-up in your face.

Originally posted by Robtard


At 1:03 and 1:13, you see cops come out of cover. So okay.

He would have kept advancing, while avoiding the gunfire (as he's shown) until he had a visual and would have shot them.


Aaaaahahahahaaa you're making it too easy!!! Those cops were noobs, they came running from behind cover, right out into the open, easy pickin's. They were begging to be shot.

Try harder.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Aaaaahahahahaaa you're making it too easy!!! Those cops were noobs, they came running from behind cover, right out into the open, easy pickin's. They were begging to be shot.

Try harder.

And how does that help McClane when you've stuck him behind some bits of office furniture that Preston can not only shoot through, but simultaneously dance out of McClane's fire while doing so?

See, you've failed. Maybe try a new scenario and plan out Preston's death better. I also don't appreciate you killing McClane due to idiocy. McClane doesn't hide and wait, kid.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, dude. Fail. Accept your debate-angle thrown back in your face. Office furniture isn't stopping Preston's guns.

Some metal. A body will resist a bullet better than sheet-metal, as an example. But a .22 will not go through a body and into the marble behind it.

Don't need to try again. You catered a scenario where you thought you could kill Preston; it's blown-up in your face.

The desk McClane his behind was not just a "layer of sheet metal", dude. It was multiple layers of metal. The top of a typical metal office desk is easily more than a single layer of flimsy sheet metal. If it were, then why didn't Karl and Hans's 9mm fire penetrate it?

Here, educate yourself:

The MP-5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP5

Muzzle velocity 400 m/s (1,312 ft/s)



And the Beretta 92F, which is basically the same as an M-9:

http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Beretta_M9

Muzzle velocity

1160 feet per second


Mhm, that's a burn.

Originally posted by Robtard
And how does that help McClane when you've stuck him behind some bits of office furniture that Preston can not only shoot through, but simultaneously dance out of McClane's fire while doing so?

See, you've failed. Maybe try a new scenario and plan out Preston's death better. I also don't appreciate you killing McClane due to idiocy. McClane doesn't hide and wait, kid.

Random and unpredictable shooting patterns>>>Gun Kata. Fact.

No, Preston's guns cannot shoot through a metal office desk, stop reaching. The typical 9 mm round has been known to bounce off a windshield.

I have no doubt that Preston will dance around a few bullets, but with McClane spraying the entire area, he's done.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The desk McClane his behind was not just a "layer of sheet metal", dude. It was multiple layers of metal. The top of a typical metal office desk is easily more than a single layer of flimsy sheet metal. If it were, then why didn't Karl and Hans's 9mm fire penetrate it?

Here, educate yourself:

The MP-5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP5

Muzzle velocity 400 m/s (1,312 ft/s)



And the Beretta 92F, which is basically the same as an M-9:

http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Beretta_M9

Muzzle velocity

1160 feet per second


Mhm, that's a burn.

There was a metal desk? Odd. Also, how thick do you expect a metal office desk to be, seriously.

Conclusion and per your own rules, bullets in McClane's "world" can't go through a simple desk. Preston's bullets aren't held back by the same rules.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Random and unpredictable shooting patterns>>>Gun Kata. Fact.

No, Preston's guns cannot shoot through a metal office desk, stop reaching. The typical 9 mm round has been known to bounce off a windshield.

I have no doubt that Preston will dance around a few bullets, but with McClane spraying the entire area, he's done.

What's so random about McClane being behind a desk? Nothing.

Preston's guns shoot through a body and into the wall behind them(this is shown; it's a feat), an office desk won't be a problem for those guns.

20+ guys sprayed, Preston had no problem. Last time I checked, 20+ guys is greater than 1.

This is a fight between two dudes right? In the most simple sense?

It's a fight between two guys, and one guy is a much better fighter. (that being preston.)

So how is this a 3 page argument already?

Originally posted by Robtard
There was a metal desk? Odd. Also, how thick do you expect a metal office desk to be, seriously.

Conclusion and per your own rules, bullets in McClane's "world" can't go through a simple desk. Preston's bullets aren't held back by the same rules. Let's get down to brass tacks here:

The MP-5 uses 9mm ammo.
McClane's Beretta 92F uses 9mm ammo.
Preston's pistols are Beretta 92F's.

Now, in all the shootout scenes in Die Hard, the 9mm round goes right through a thick ass wood table, but they fail to penetrate a metal desk. That's what we have to go with.




The human body is around 12 inches thick, depending on the person obviously. Let's perform a little experiment, shall we?

Martin Riggs is at the firing range with his Beretta 92F. He has three targets in front of him. The first target is a person. The second target is a slab of metal 12 inches thick. The third is a slab of wood 12 inches thick. He fires into each target one time, three shots total. Which of the three targets will be penetrated the deepest/easiest?





Originally posted by Robtard
What's so random about McClane being behind a desk? Nothing.

Preston's guns shoot through a body and into the wall behind them(this is shown; it's a feat), an office desk won't be a problem for those guns. No, it won't, se what I just said.

Mhm, 20 guys standing around like idiots just begging to be shot. 20 guys running right at Preston as he fired.

Originally posted by Quincy
This is a fight between two dudes right? In the most simple sense?

It's a fight between two guys, and one guy is a much better fighter. (that being preston.)

So how is this a 3 page argument already?

Tell me, the guys Preston fought in Equilibrium, how competent did they seem to you? Mainly the 20 guards in the final shootout. Did you see when they all just stood there/ran TOWARDS Preston as he mowed them down?

See, if you had actually read my posts you would know this.

I read your posts man. I get it. Your downplaying how badass Preston is by discrediting how much ass he kicked.

What high class caliber of criminal did mcclane beat up exactly?

John Preston is better at fighting man it's obvious.

since RJ says all thoso guys john preston killed were standing still lets put mcclane in that same situation i doubt he makes it out alive

Originally posted by Quincy
I read your posts man. I get it. Your downplaying how badass Preston is by discrediting how much ass he kicked.

What high class caliber of criminal did mcclane beat up exactly?

John Preston is better at fighting man it's obvious.


No, I am not downplaying anything. I am merely saying the following:

Gun kata relies on the cleric being able to memorize the location/s of his opponents, then, using this memorization of their locations, predict the trajectory of their incoming fire. The cleric then moves his body to avoid the return fire and fires back. BUT, this is all based on the memorized locations of the opponent/s.

Now, someone like McClane, who is evasive and uses cover (no, not one of Prestons opponents even attempted to attain cover, they all just stood there, in the open, like noobs), and is unpredictable, well, he throws a monkey wrench into the works when Preston uses gun kata.


See? Step one (memorization) and step two (prediction) are unhinged, rendering gun kata useless.

Look, I understand someone disagreeing with me, I really do, but when someone dismisses the flawless logic I just stated as bullshit, yeah, I got a problem with that.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
since RJ says all thoso guys john preston killed were standing still lets put mcclane in that same situation i doubt he makes it out alive McClane would use C4 to blow them sky high, or ram an SUV up their ass. Remember the jet he blew up in DH2? Far more than twenty men, and they were all special forces.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
McClane would use C4 to blow them sky high, or ram an SUV up their ass. Remember the jet he blew up in DH2? Far more than twenty men, and they were all special forces. LMAO i said same situation preston didnt have any c4 or a suv he had handguns

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
LMAO i said same situation preston didnt have any c4 or a suv he had handguns

Yeah, but McClane DID have C4

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yeah, but McClane DID have C4 no c4

no c4

no suv

could he survive being in preston's shoes in any of his fight scenes...NOPE

I can't believe you still really think McClane would beat Preston. I love McClane as much as anyone, and I'd argue usually for him against most, but he's out classed severely man. McClane has his luck. That's the only thing he has going into the fight that's above Preston's abilities. And it so happens McClane's luck really only applies to WTF situations against villains. Which Preston is not.

Originally posted by Kaibs
I can't believe you still really think McClane would beat Preston. I love McClane as much as anyone, and I'd argue usually for him against most, but he's out classed severely man. McClane has his luck. That's the only thing he has going into the fight that's above Preston's abilities. And it so happens McClane's luck really only applies to WTF situations against villains. Which Preston is not. And Prestons feats only apply to wtf idiots who stand around in one spot begging to be shot.

See what I did there? I'll take the luck.


Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
no c4

no c4

no suv

could he survive being in preston's shoes in any of his fight scenes...NOPE McClane had C4, dude, watch the movie again. He also had a zippo, and we all know what he can do with a zippo. BOOM.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And Prestons feats only apply to wtf idiots who stand around in one spot begging to be shot.

See what I did there? I'll take the luck.


McClane had C4, dude, watch the movie again. He also had a zippo, and we all know what he can do with a zippo. BOOM.

You did nothing. That's a horrible argument considering every person he shot 1) did not just stand there like you like to for some reason think, and 2) those "WTF idiots" are far more skilled than terrorists and Russians who can't shoot for shit. The military guys in 2 debatable maybe. But they didn't show much skill with a gun.

Originally posted by Kaibs
You did nothing. That's a horrible argument considering every person he shot 1) did not just stand there like you like to for some reason think, and 2) those "WTF idiots" are far more skilled than terrorists and Russians who can't shoot for shit. The military guys in 2 debatable maybe. But they didn't show much skill with a gun. Yes, they all just stood there like idiots. The one guy who had the presence of mind to fire on the run, Preston missed. Itso facto.

Those wtf idiots are exactly that, standing in the open and running at Preston. wtf idiots, big time.

Stop talking. Just stop.

no RJ i mean take equilibrium fight scenes replace preston with mcclane and whatever weapon preston used in the fights now belong to mcclane
hes in preston's shoes does he survive any of equilibriums fight scenes

No, probably not, if he fights the way Preston did that is. Thing is, McClane would do just as much killing, but in different, more creative ways.

Stupid question, really, and it has nothing to do with this fight.

I'll have to rewatch Equilbrium, but your argument is beyond idiotic, and you know it. You have no logic at all.

So you stop, just stop. You fail. Horribly. Worse than G.W. at pronouncing big words on TV.

Originally posted by Kaibs
I'll have to rewatch Equilbrium, but your argument is beyond idiotic, and you know it. You have no logic at all.

So you stop, just stop. You fail. Horribly. Worse than G.W. at pronouncing big words on TV. Nah, actually my argument here is full of logic, screen feats, and pure epic win. Nothing that I have said has been countered, nothing. Not one damn thing.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, probably not, if he fights the way Preston did that is. Thing is, McClane would do just as much killing, but in different, more creative ways.

Stupid question, really, and it has nothing to do with this fight. NO it has plenty to do with this fight you downplay preston because of gun kata but mcclane cant do anything remotely close to what preston did even if those guys stood still

and how could he be more creative with the same weaponry as preston

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
NO it has plenty to do with this fight you downplay preston because of gun kata but mcclane cant do anything remotely close to what preston did even if those guys stood still

and how could he be more creative with the same weaponry as preston

Why does it matter how McClane would do? It's an irrelevant question. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Putting Preston in nakatomi against Hans would be just as stupid.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Why does it matter how McClane would do? It's an irrelevant question. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Putting Preston in nakatomi against Hans would be just as stupid. wow you're completly missing the point

let me try to make you understand....

ok you say that preston only was that good because the guy were standing still OK

what im trying to point out is that mcclane couldnt handle that many guys with assault rifles and for damn sure not when theyre circled around him with they're barrels to his head even if theyre standing still

so stop downplaying gun kata

Originally posted by Quincy
This is a fight between two dudes right? In the most simple sense?

It's a fight between two guys, and one guy is a much better fighter. (that being preston.)

So how is this a 3 page argument already?

QFT.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yes, they all just stood there like idiots. The one guy who had the presence of mind to fire on the run, Preston missed. Itso facto.

Nah. Robtard pwned that. And many more than "one" moved.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Those wtf idiots are exactly that, standing in the open and running at Preston. wtf idiots, big time.




So these guys trained in gun kata and are the world's most advanced military force, are some how "wtf idiots"? It couldn't be the Preston is the "****in'" Preston, could it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Stop talking. Just stop.


Yes, please do, RJ.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
wow you're completly missing the point

let me try to make you understand....

ok you say that preston only was that good because the guy were standing still OK

what im trying to point out is that mcclane couldnt handle that many guys with assault rifles and for damn sure not when theyre circled around him with they're barrels to his head even if theyre standing still

so stop downplaying gun kata

I gotcha.

What we have here is this: Person A beats person B. Then person B beats person C. This does not mean person A beats person C.

Get it? And there is no telling with McClane, the dude always finds a way. With his luck, he'll fire blindly around a corner and hit a gas line, exploding the hallway.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah. Robtard pwned that. And many more than "one" moved.

Yeah, the ones that moved ran right at Preston like idiots. Or maybe a step or two right or left.

But hey, they were awesome, yeah!!!!






So you are saying that they didn't fight like idiots? You are saying that they didn't just sit there waiting to get shot? Because onscreen evidence disagrees with you.

No, Preston IS the shit, he is a God amongst men, in HIS world. Gun Kata will not work outside his world.




Why should I? I'm the only one that is using facts, not opinions.

See, you guys think that gun kata will work just as well in a real life gun battle, like the ones in Die Hard. It Won't. You guys are also assuming that Preston can do things that he is never shown doing onscreen. He can't.

Gun Kata= Memory, Prediction, Execution. It's a 3 step process. McClane. HG, or any number of other gun fighters who fight the way they do, they nullify 1 and 2, Preston never gets to 3. So yeah, gun kata, outside Prestons universe? Useless. Can't get to 3 if you can't do 1 and 2, right? You wanted logic? There it is, in spades.

Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I gotcha.

What we have here is this: Person A beats person B. Then person B beats person C. This does not mean person A beats person C.

Get it? And there is no telling with McClane, the dude always finds a way. With his luck, he'll fire blindly around a corner and hit a gas line, exploding the hallway. LMAO so basically theres no way for mcclane to get down that hallway under preston's conditions even though they are and i qoute (statues begging to get shot) LMAO

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yeah, the ones that moved ran right at Preston like idiots. Or maybe a step or two right or left.

But hey, they were awesome, yeah!!!!






So you are saying that they didn't fight like idiots? You are saying that they didn't just sit there waiting to get shot? Because onscreen evidence disagrees with you.

No, Preston IS the shit, he is a God amongst men, in HIS world. Gun Kata will not work outside his world.




Why should I? I'm the only one that is using facts, not opinions.

See, you guys think that gun kata will work just as well in a real life gun battle, like the ones in Die Hard. It Won't. You guys are also assuming that Preston can do things that he is never shown doing onscreen. He can't.

Gun Kata= Memory, Prediction, Execution. It's a 3 step process. McClane. HG, or any number of other gun fighters who fight the way they do, they nullify 1 and 2, Preston never gets to 3. So yeah, gun kata, outside Prestons universe? Useless. Can't get to 3 if you can't do 1 and 2, right? You wanted logic? There it is, in spades.

Prove me wrong.

Then by your logic. McClane's luck only works inside his world. Therefore McClane has no luck.

Originally posted by Kaibs
Then by your logic. McClane's luck only works inside his world. Therefore McClane has no luck. Mhm, and this fight IS in McClanes world

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
LMAO so basically theres no way for mcclane to get down that hallway under preston's conditions even though they are and i qoute (statues begging to get shot) LMAO Read the OP. The fight begins as McClane disappears down the hallway.

LOL @ Preston trying to exit the elevator as McClane sprays it with full auto fire.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Mhm, and this fight IS in McClanes world

Read the OP. The fight begins as McClane disappears down the hallway.

LOL @ Preston trying to exit the elevator as McClane sprays it with full auto fire.

Nowhere in your OP does it say the fight is IN McClane's world. See now you're gimping the thread again.

Tsk tsk.

Originally posted by Kaibs
Nowhere in your OP does it say the fight is IN McClane's world. See now you're gimping the thread again.

Tsk tsk.


John McClane is doing his thing in Nakatomi, pwning terrorists left and right.

Nakatomi is in Mac's world, genius

Ooops I suppose you're right. I over read that. Doesn't matter though. McClane still loses.

haermm