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Darkseid can use all his resources.

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vs

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The wave gets the Galactus cannon?

Wouldn't they still win regardless of it?

They would have a shot, but DS is very powerful. I suppose he would be overpowered eventually.

If he goes straight for Annihilus he should do fine.

Annihilus is no weakling either. He's solid trans level with the cosmic rod. He also has his own imperial guard full of strong superhumans, the queens and the opposing force using heralds like ravenous. The swarms were endless.

All this is just the wave at the beggining, not counting the quantum bands acquired later, the heralds and high metas enslaved by the insects like terrax, the circumstancial alliances with proemial gods and thanos, and the teleportation tech he gave them.

Wave

Ds solos the wave. It just takes a while.

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Ds solos the wave. It just takes a while. I believe so as well.

If Annihilus cannot bring down DS. DS will slowly win the war.

The Wave does have those Seekers, the herald-hunters. Even Darkseid may go down here.

Annihilation Wave wins this.

Originally posted by Q99
The Wave does have those Seekers, the herald-hunters. Even Darkseid may go down here.

Darkseid does have access to the best tech in comics, though. They had time machines thousands of years ago.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Darkseid does have access to the best tech in comics, though. They had time machines thousands of years ago.


No world could stand against the wave, and at the time Annihilus had Thanos on his side as well, and Thanos has great tech himself.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Darkseid does have access to the best tech in comics, though. They had time machines thousands of years ago.

True, but I think the Wave's numbers advantage and elites will be pressing them even with that.

Desaad whips up a nice ole batch of SF Formula, Darkseid solos.

I don't think Soul Fire Darkseid applies to this thread. What are the true circumstances that surround using such a tactic? Does the OP agree that Soul Fire Darkseid is allowed to be in this thread? I agree that if it is allowed, then Darkseid's forces would win, if not they die.

Darkseid can't die. Spectre wasn't enough to put him down.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Darkseid can't die. Spectre wasn't enough to put him down. Then he gets turned into an experiment.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Darkseid can't die. Spectre wasn't enough to put him down.


So are you saying that Darkseid can take the entire Annihilation Wave by himself?

Originally posted by Stoic
So are you saying that Darkseid can take the entire Annihilation Wave by himself?


No, but if you're saying Annihilus or any of his cronies could kill Darky, that would more than likely be out of the question.

Originally posted by Stoic
Annihilation Wave wins this.

Originally posted by Stoic
No world could stand against the wave, and at the time Annihilus had Thanos on his side as well, and Thanos has great tech himself.

That's more an insult to the empires fought than a point to the Wave.

Their big weapon, after all, was a planet destroying bio-engineered organism. Not only does DC space have things that do that naturally (and more effectively), they've got natural space organisms that do far more (sun eaters), and Apokolips has bombs the size of suit cases that can destroy planets, as well as weapons that turn entire suns into giant, living cosmic lasers.

Add in their elite, their legion of parademons that can't actually be killed, their legion of foot soldiers, and the best tech in comics and it's a no brainer.

Annihilation Wave wins this.

Does Awave have tech comparable to Apokolips?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Darkseid can't die. Spectre wasn't enough to put him down.
Darkseid can die. He just can't be killed by the Spectre because the Presence wouldn't allow his servant to replace Darkseid as the Universe's negative charge.

Where did it say he can die, because I thought he was necessary to the universe.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Where did it say he can die, because I thought he was necessary to the universe.
He died in Final Crisis, so clearly he isn't that necessary.

eh, he'll come back next year.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He died in Final Crisis, so clearly he isn't that necessary.

Even that is iffy, since Morrison is playing him as the platonic 'evil'. As long as evil exists, Darkseid exists.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Does Awave have tech comparable to Apokolips?

This is not a science fair. Tech comparisons have little to do with it. Awave just needs to show that they have the firepower to hurt herald+ characters with their tech and by their showings, they easily can. All they need to do then is let their numbers do the job.

Heck, they can literally manufacture tons of herald+ level characters (the seekers) to easily take down Darskeid's Elites.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Does Awave have tech comparable to Apokolips?

No, it's not even close.

Nothing to be ashamed of, because the New Gods have some of the best tech and resources in comics, but the Annihilation Wave's big, secret weapon way below even standard Apokoliptan warfare tech from millenia ago.

Originally posted by Desaad
Even that is iffy, since Morrison is playing him as the platonic 'evil'. As long as evil exists, Darkseid exists.
Yeah, I imagine he's in Limbo right now playing Uno with the Inferior Five and Ace the Bathound.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, it's not even close.

Nothing to be ashamed of, because the New Gods have some of the best tech and resources in comics, but the Annihilation Wave's big, secret weapon way below even standard Apokoliptan warfare tech from millenia ago.

Context. Many of the Awave's herald levelers were comparable to Galactus' heralds themselves who themselves are planet-busters. The main weapon was powerful because it not only destroyed the planet but converted it to nutrients for use of the Awave. It was also due to its durability (being able to regenerate damage inflicted to it) as well as the fear it caused s'why it was considered the Wave's best weapon.

If darky side has prep he wins.If not then AW.

What's to stop Darkseid from creating an army of Brimstones? Besides CIS I mean.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
This is not a science fair. Tech comparisons have little to do with it.

That seems naive. Technological superiority tends to be the deciding factor in most military conflict.



When they're facing a foe who can generate solar-system destroying affects at a whim, numbers aren't going to do the job. It was Galactus destroying, what, 3 star systems that ultimately crippled the wave beyond hope?



Those were far from herald + level characters, with the exception of Ravenous, given that it took GROUPS of them to take on a single Herald level character. And we dont' know how they are manufactured, or what limitations of production Annihilus had.

Meanwhile, Darkseid could create as many Brimestones as their are stars in the universe (and more, really) without any real loss of resource (all he and Apokolips need to do is manufacture the Techno-Seed, the actual power is drawn from outside sources of heat such as stars, or nuclear reactors, or geothermically), or could activate his Trumpets of Doom and summon and control his pet Promethean Giant.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Context. Many of the Awave's herald levelers were comparable to Galactus' heralds themselves who themselves are planet-busters.

Can I get some evidence of that? Ravenous is the only one who performed anything approaching decently 1v1 against a Herald, and even he recently got his stuff pushed in against a Supergirl rip off character (Xenith or, as she is called now, Strontian).




That's literally something that Darkseid sends out at a whim. No 'secret weapon' to it, he's got plenty of planet destroyers at his disposal, and one of them sucks the bio energy from the planet to be used on Apokolips.

You see the difference in scale we're talking about? To one group, it's the end all be all, their ultimate trump. To the other, it's business as usual, normal operating procedure.




The fear it caused was because it was destroying whole planets. Which, again, is no big deal for the forces of Apokolips. The war between Apokolips and New Genesis (which, going by Seven Soldiers, had to be WELL over 50,000 years ago and likely MILLIONS or BILLIONS) nearly destroyed their universe.

An army of Brimstones would seriously put a hurting on Awave.

Daxamite army?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Daxamite army?

That's not the MO for 'current' Darkseid though. While, going by what was said in Great Darkness Saga that was a WEAKER than present day Darkseid, he also has never tried it.

For this threat, he wouldn't need it anyway.

Given his higher showings of prep and tech and power anything less than conquering the DCU seems like monumental CIS for Darkseid. Must be New Genesis's opposition that keeps him from just steamrolling the DCU with an army of Brimstones and a Legion of Staynes.

Originally posted by Desaad
That seems naive. Technological superiority tends to be the deciding factor in most military conflict.

This statement is quite ignorant. When technological difference NEGATES the numbers then I will most likely agree. My EXACT point was it does not in this case.

Originally posted by Desaad
When they're facing a foe who can generate solar-system destroying affects at a whim, numbers aren't going to do the job. It was Galactus destroying, what, 3 star systems that ultimately crippled the wave beyond hope?

Well, yes, because DS (after all) is abstract level like Galactus and would most certainly be at the heart of the Awave and catch the entire Awave unprepared when he delivers his coup de grace. I mean it's not like the Awave is gonna be attacking him while this happens.

And btw, it takes a LOT more power to destroy 3 adjacent Solar Systems than it takes to just kill 3 Solar Systems individually. :-/

Sheesh.

Originally posted by Desaad
Those were far from herald + level characters, with the exception of Ravenous, given that it took GROUPS of them to take on a single Herald level character. And we dont' know how they are manufactured, or what limitations of production Annihilus had.

They didn't NEED groups. They just used groups to take down heralds easily. Big difference.

Originally posted by Desaad
Meanwhile, Darkseid could create as many Brimestones as their are stars in the universe (and more, really) without any real loss of resource (all he and Apokolips need to do is manufacture the Techno-Seed, the actual power is drawn from outside sources of heat such as stars, or nuclear reactors, or geothermically), or could activate his Trumpets of Doom and summon and control his pet Promethean Giant.

Oh yes, because DS have a ready army of Brimestones waiting at his beck and call.

Oh wait, HE DOESN'T.

Whether it be CIS or perhaps an unstated reason (like maybe the techno seed isn't as easy to manufacture as you make it sound), DS DOESN'T have an army Brimestones at his beck and call does he?

Annihilus has an army of superhuman herald-levelers at his beck and call. This was stated on-panel and can thus be used for the purposes of this debate.

This is a prep war, so of course Darky can get whatever he wants.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
This statement is quite ignorant. When technological difference NEGATES the numbers then I will most likely agree. My EXACT point was it does not in this case.



Well, yes, because DS (after all) is abstract level like Galactus and would most certainly be at the heart of the Awave and catch the entire Awave unprepared when he delivers his coup de grace. I mean it's not like the Awave is gonna be attacking him while this happens.

And btw, it takes a LOT more power to destroy 3 adjacent Solar Systems than it takes to just kill 3 Solar Systems individually. :-/


Yes but you don't need to be Abstract to do it.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Given his higher showings of prep and tech and power anything less than conquering the DCU seems like monumental CIS for Darkseid. Must be New Genesis's opposition that keeps him from just steamrolling the DCU with an army of Brimstones and a Legion of Staynes.

Well that's the beauty of Apokolips -- they've got a natural counterpoint set up, so not having them own the universe is not only logical, it's the only logical thing.

And at least with Stayne that was a Galactus/Herald type relationship, so there is no reason to think he could just empower an army of them, or even more than one at a time. With Brimestone, specifically, it SHOULD be a no brainer because all he's doing is manufacturing the techno seeds, and then using OTHER power sources to basically create his weapons. And the number of available power sources is huge (anything that generates great amounts of heat). AND Darkseid has already used multiple Brimestones, and upgraded various versions of them.

Originally posted by Desaad
Can I get some evidence of that? Ravenous is the only one who performed anything approaching decently 1v1 against a Herald, and even he recently got his stuff pushed in against a Supergirl rip off character (Xenith or, as she is called now, Strontian).

Read Awave. It's there.

Why do you ppl keep ignoring context?? Ravenous no longer had the opposing force when he fought Xenith because Annihilus was dead. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
That's literally something that Darkseid sends out at a whim. No 'secret weapon' to it, he's got plenty of planet destroyers at his disposal, and one of them sucks the bio energy from the planet to be used on Apokolips.

You see the difference in scale we're talking about? To one group, it's the end all be all, their ultimate trump. To the other, it's business as usual, normal operating procedure.

The fear it caused was because it was destroying whole planets. Which, again, is no big deal for the forces of Apokolips. The war between Apokolips and New Genesis (which, going by Seven Soldiers, had to be WELL over 50,000 years ago and likely MILLIONS or BILLIONS) nearly destroyed their universe.

Again, you don't seem to understand my point. :-/ the Marvel Space Empires have planet buster bombs themselves (Nega Bombs). Heck the Kree (with a little help from the Inhumans) was able to manufacture a bomb that wrecked entire systems as well as rip a HUGE tear in the fabric of space-time.

Planet-busting isn't such a big deal in Marvel. :-/ Surfer does it nonchalantly.

The Harvester of Sorrows was more of a fear tool than a pinnacle of destructive technological achievement for the Awave. It was an unstoppable/indestructible tool to sow fear in the hearts of the enemy.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
This is a prep war, so of course Darky can get whatever he wants.

You never said "prep" in your OP.

You simply said DS had his resources.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yes but you don't need to be Abstract to do it.

W/c has little to no bearing in this debate. :-/

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You never said "prep" in your OP.

You simply said DS had his resources.

I said he can use ALL his resorces. Which means prep.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I said he can use ALL his resorces. Which means prep.

In w/c case the Annihilation Wave would get:

Thanos and his prep
Thanos' alliance with T&A
the Galactus Gun.

Making this an absolute STOMP in favor of the AWave.

Or did you just design this thread to ALLOW DS the prep while not giving the AWave any? :-/

Both sides get prep. I don't do one-sided prep.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Both sides get prep. I don't do one-sided prep.

Awave still wins then.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
This statement is quite ignorant.

Not at all. What was ignorant was likening taking technological level into account to 'going to a science fair', and belittling the massive role technological innovations like, say, the utilization of iron have historically played in military conflict.




No, your point was that technology didn't matter. But you gave nothing to back that up. You also gave nothing to back up that the Annihilation Wave has a greater number of combatants at their disposal, especially when I was very specific to mention that Darkseid's parademons quite literally cannot die without his permission, that his resurrection technology and omega's can resurrect any member of his elite (and have) and that he can manufacture/grow large numbers of fodder with ease.





I don't know who you're talking to, but you can't be addressing me.

Where did I say that Darkseid, as normally portrayed (ie, not Final Crisis Darkseid) is Galactus level? Where did I say that it was going to be Darkseid who was going to be using his personal power to do such a thing?

I said that his technology can replicate, or even trump, such effects. And that's the gods honest truth, hard as it may be for you to accept.





Yeah, it's not like Darkseid hasn't demonstrated the ability to teleport his planet to another solar system, or teleport others away, or surround his planet in a shield that can take solar-level blasts.

The fact that the Annihilation Wave had a tendency to mass like a, well, wave is a strike AGAINST them, not for them.



Whats with your astoundingly bad attitude? I'm giving you the facts, and haven't said a thing that was factually incorrect.





Then PROVE it, yeah? If they didn't need half a dozen to take down Terrax, if they were each herald level, than a better allocation of resources would have been to assign two to take him down and leave the rest for other super powered foes.

Until you can actually demonstrate that the seekers were herald level, they aren't.





Hold up.

Why is it okay for YOU to make hypothetical extrapolations ("Annihilus could just manufacture a massive army of seekers to take out Darkseid's elite..." but it's suddenly not okay for me to do the same?

You did see what my hypothetical was in reply to, didn't you? I'm NOT saying that Darkseid is going to do this. I'm saying he COULD, specifically in response to you putting forward that same type of argument.

The only real difference is I have actual showings to back up Darkseid's ability to manufacture them with ease and the power level they represent.





No, it wasn't. Show me proof that any of the seekers were herald level. Show me the NUMBERS of seekers that he had 'at his beck and call'.

When you can do both of these things, you'll have a point. Until then, you don't.

Or Darky summons Stayne and Soulfire. Plus his Promethean Giant.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
W/c has little to no bearing in this debate. :-/
Just pointing out an error in your logic. Destroying three solar systems is a really low feat for an Abstract character.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Read Awave. It's there.

I've read the entire Annihilation Wave crossover. I participated in discussions with Andy Schmidt, the editor, as it was coming out.

What evidence are you using? I want actual showings that back up that Seekers were herald level, individually. Because all we saw of them was that they attacked heralds in large groups and took them down. And they succeeded in taking, what, two?



Why do you keep ignoring the burden of proof that rests on you?







Don't flatter yourself. Your point is simple, it's just not based on anything but speculation.




Right, itself an 'ultimate weapon' style bomb.




LOL, ' a little help'? There was so much going on there, what a ridiculous over simplification. Not only had the fabric of space time been messed up, but that was drawing energy from black bolt, it was using terrigen crystals, etc.

And did it wreck entire systems? It's been a while since I read the actual issue, but I don't recall any talk as to how much physical damage it did. As I recall it, the device was to turn beings into Inhumans, not create physical damage. Hardly a terrifying fate, really, and one part of the crossover that never made any sense.



He doesn't, actually. He's done things of greater effect nonchalantly (creating a black hole), but his actual planetary destruction feats are limited (once in a fight with Morg, which was hardly nonchalant, and once when he tried to evolve the planet, thought he planet itself wasn't destroyed, just the surface, and the effort nearly killed him).



This is what I'm talking about, you're not getting it.

Why was the Harvester of Sorrows feared? For the same reason that the Atom Bomb was feared -- for the destruction it caused.




Yeah, the power of it, the effect it had, was what made it such a ferocious weapon.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
In w/c case the Annihilation Wave would get:

Thanos and his prep
Thanos' alliance with T&A
the Galactus Gun.

Making this an absolute STOMP in favor of the AWave.

Or did you just design this thread to ALLOW DS the prep while not giving the AWave any? :-/

His alliance with T&A only went so far as them subduing Galactus -- they never engaged in the actual battle.

The Galactus gun itself is fair game, though, and, again, planetary destruction weapon, and extremely limited in effect (since it's a gun, rather than a combatant). Geridath the Promethean more than cancels it out.

I want to add that I have not gotten into 1/10 of what Darkseid brings to the table here, the level of technology we're talking about.

We're talking about platonic, unstoppable, god killing bullets that move through time as they move through space, we're talking about Time Benders, we're talking about armies of GIANT billion dollar bates clones that can each partially interact with and absorb the Anti Life Equation, we're talking about multiple ways for Darkseid to resurrect his dead and at least one 'elite' who can resurrect ANY dead and turn them into zombies doing her bidding, we're talking about creatures that feed off of the fear of large groups and take on the form of their greatest fears, we're talking about the ability to beam power to any of their agents anywhere in the universe, or mutate their agents into even more powerful versions of themselves. We're talking about force fields that use the energy directed against them to constrict/confine even more strongly, devices that steal the minds or souls of their victims, standard shock troops that can give Superman a tough time, random robots that can one hit KO Wonder Woman, missiles and robots impervious to the best attacks of Jurgens era Superman, technology that can shield him Apokolips from the reach of the Anti Monitor, the effects of the Crisis, and even badly damage the AM with a single blast, city destroying cannons, devices that can cause uncontrollable fear across the populations and areas of cities, devices that can stop even a being ascending to omnipotence (Ares w/ Godwave), generate an army of Four-Armed Terrors any one of which could give Superman a rough fight (and actually immobilized him), the Gravi-Guards who were likewise able to over power Superman....

The list goes on. I coudl go on for pages and pages.

Originally posted by Desaad
Not at all. What was ignorant was likening taking technological level into account to 'going to a science fair', and belittling the massive role technological innovations like, say, the utilization of iron have historically played in military conflict.

No, your point was that technology didn't matter. But you gave nothing to back that up.

Then you're not reading or have poor reading comprehension skills. This is what I stated:

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
This is not a science fair. Tech comparisons have little to do with it. Awave just needs to show that they have the firepower to hurt herald+ characters with their tech and by their showings, they easily can. All they need to do then is let their numbers do the job.


Technological differences matter IN THIS DEBATE when tech can completely negate numbers. Such as when the invention of tanks vs simple rifles. The second line of my argumentation is my EXACT point. The Awave has shown that they can easily hurt and injure herald levelers with their basic tech. Unless Apokolips is full of trans levelers, their numbers WILL make a difference.

Originally posted by Desaad
You also gave nothing to back up that the Annihilation Wave has a greater number of combatants at their disposal, especially when I was very specific to mention that Darkseid's parademons quite literally cannot die without his permission, that his resurrection technology and omega's can resurrect any member of his elite (and have) and that he can manufacture/grow large numbers of fodder with ease.

Seriously?? You need comparative proof between the numbers on Apokolips vs the numbers of the Annihilation wave???

Did you even read Annihilation?

Originally posted by Desaad
I don't know who you're talking to, but you can't be addressing me.

Where did I say that Darkseid, as normally portrayed (ie, not Final Crisis Darkseid) is Galactus level? Where did I say that it was going to be Darkseid who was going to be using his personal power to do such a thing?

I said that his technology can replicate, or even trump, such effects. And that's the gods honest truth, hard as it may be for you to accept.

And my point was, it doesnt. You compared Galactus' attack (an attack generated by an abstract while he was in the CENTER, the absolute heart of the Awave) that took the Awave completely by surprise due to Thanos' betrayal to something that DS could replicate with his tech.

It's nice for some ppl to ignore context as well as overstate feats and relevance. DS wankers are known for that, sadly. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, it's not like Darkseid hasn't demonstrated the ability to teleport his planet to another solar system, or teleport others away, or surround his planet in a shield that can take solar-level blasts.

The fact that the Annihilation Wave had a tendency to mass like a, well, wave is a strike AGAINST them, not for them.

If DS teleports his planet, then Awave wins via BFR doesn't it? Also, teleportation tech that the Awave had (and given by Thanos) makes the shielding almost a non-factor here.

Originally posted by Desaad
Whats with your astoundingly bad attitude? I'm giving you the facts, and haven't said a thing that was factually incorrect.

I apologize, my attitude wasn't directed at you. It's more of an exasperation at your type of argumentation.


Originally posted by Desaad
Then PROVE it, yeah? If they didn't need half a dozen to take down Terrax, if they were each herald level, than a better allocation of resources would have been to assign two to take him down and leave the rest for other super powered foes.

Until you can actually demonstrate that the seekers were herald level, they aren't.

The fact that they were (in a grp) able to match the Surfer and tank his blasts easily? To walk away after the Surfer nukes the whole planet they were in? To simply leave the center of a black hole (that Surfer made)? The point wherein the Surfer even needed to resort to a form of weakness exploit (killing the currs) in order to beat them?
These feats makes them at least herald level.

Originally posted by Desaad
Hold up.

Why is it okay for YOU to make hypothetical extrapolations ("Annihilus could just manufacture a massive army of seekers to take out Darkseid's elite..." but it's suddenly not okay for me to do the same?

You did see what my hypothetical was in reply to, didn't you? I'm NOT saying that Darkseid is going to do this. I'm saying he COULD, specifically in response to you putting forward that same type of argument.

A combination of the facts that a) there were ALREADY a high number of seekers as shown in Annihilation (a few dozen at least) as well as dialogue indicating that their numbers were even higher?

DS needs to show that he has a high number of Brimestones before you can start drawing parallels between them in terms of capabilities.

Originally posted by Desaad
The only real difference is I have actual showings to back up Darkseid's ability to manufacture them with ease and the power level they represent.

Actually, I happen to believe the reverse is true. The AWave has the feats while you're just using the usual "DS conceptually CAN do this" argument that is common amongs DS wankers. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
No, it wasn't. Show me proof that any of the seekers were herald level. Show me the NUMBERS of seekers that he had 'at his beck and call'.

When you can do both of these things, you'll have a point. Until then, you don't.

I'm not gonna post pages and pages of scans because you're too lazy to look it up. You'll need a TON of scans and I'm not the scan-blitzer type. It's all in Annihilation, grab a copy and come back here when you're better informed.

Originally posted by Desaad
I've read the entire Annihilation Wave crossover. I participated in discussions with Andy Schmidt, the editor, as it was coming out.

Then you obviously didn't understand much of the story then. The fact that you pointed out Ravenous' loss to Xenith as an example speaks volumes of your poor comprehension of the storyline.

Did you speedread thru Annihilation Wave?

Originally posted by Desaad
What evidence are you using? I want actual showings that back up that Seekers were herald level, individually. Because all we saw of them was that they attacked heralds in large groups and took them down. And they succeeded in taking, what, two?

See post above.

Originally posted by Desaad
Why do you keep ignoring the burden of proof that rests on you?

See above.

Originally posted by Desaad
Don't flatter yourself. Your point is simple, it's just not based on anything but speculation.

Disprove it then.

Originally posted by Desaad
Right, itself an 'ultimate weapon' style bomb.

See below.

Originally posted by Desaad
LOL, ' a little help'? There was so much going on there, what a ridiculous over simplification. Not only had the fabric of space time been messed up, but that was drawing energy from black bolt, it was using terrigen crystals, etc.

I already mentioned that it drew energy from Black Bolt. But unless Black Bolt can suddenly wreck solar systems, the power of the bomb wasn't sorely due to his abilities. Also, the Terrigen crystals were rendered inert FYI. Did you speedread thru War of Kings, too?

Plus my point was not the power of the bomb but the fact that planet-busting isn't the "end all" technology for the MU that you keep trying to make it out to be. Would be nice if you started reading actual points instead of strawmaning everything I say.

Originally posted by Desaad
And did it wreck entire systems? It's been a while since I read the actual issue, but I don't recall any talk as to how much physical damage it did. As I recall it, the device was to turn beings into Inhumans, not create physical damage. Hardly a terrifying fate, really, and one part of the crossover that never made any sense.

Yes. It DID wreck the entire system as shown by the artwork.

Originally posted by Desaad
He doesn't, actually. He's done things of greater effect nonchalantly (creating a black hole), but his actual planetary destruction feats are limited (once in a fight with Morg, which was hardly nonchalant, and once when he tried to evolve the planet, thought he planet itself wasn't destroyed, just the surface, and the effort nearly killed him).

Snicker....

You didn't read Annihilation at all did you? Surfer blew up TWO planets there. :-/ One to escape the Seekers the 2nd to prove a point.

Originally posted by Desaad
This is what I'm talking about, you're not getting it.

Why was the Harvester of Sorrows feared? For the same reason that the Atom Bomb was feared -- for the destruction it caused.

Yeah, the power of it, the effect it had, was what made it such a ferocious weapon.

No. It was feared BECAUSE it not only destroyed planets, you couldn't stop it when it wanted to destroy yours. A weapon's effectiveness is determined by 2 things: Destructive power and method of delivery.

The fact that you don't seem to know this speaks volumes of your understanding. :-/

I'll just edit out your overtly passive aggressive side comments, shall I?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Technological differences matter IN THIS DEBATE when tech can completely negate numbers. Such as when the invention of tanks vs simple rifles. The second line of my argumentation is my EXACT point. The Awave has shown that they can easily hurt and injure herald levelers with their basic tech. Unless Apokolips is full of trans levelers, their numbers WILL make a difference.

No one is arguing that the A-Wave's technology isn't going to be able to have SOME affect on the forces of Apokolips. One need not suffer no casualties to declare a victory.

The bows and arrows of the native americans certainly still hurt the invading europeans, but their technological (and biological) warfare still allowed their relatively small numbers to win the day.

When you have weapons capable of generating armies of artificial warriors or resurrect your dead, the very concept of 'numbers' becomes meaningless...one can just grow more.

When one has weapons capable of destroying entire solar systems or more, the concept of numbers becomes meaningless; one can just destroy the other side en mass.





I think this response is pretty well indicative of the type of argument I feel I've been up against during this 'debate'. An outright refusal to provide any evidence to back up a claim, a bad attitude about being ASKED to do so, and then a not-so-subtle ad hominem attack.

Is there really any point to continuing?







Yeah, it does. With teleport technology, it's EASY to drop a solar system or planet destroying device in the center of Annihilation Wave.

And just FYI, Galactus isn't an abstract. Not only does he have DNA (as mentioned by Infinity Abyss), but he was confirmed as a physical, rather than abstractual, being in Gru's "Quasar" series, the delineation between he and abstract beings like Eternity specifically being made.







Haha, what?

So there is no strategy allowed, is that it?




Two points here, and I'm glad you brought this up.

Darkseid has teleportation snares and limitations around Apokolips.

Point two is, this demonstrates exactly the type of difference we're dealing here. To the races and players of Annihilation, teleportation tech was a HUGE deal, a real game changer. But in the mythology of the New Gods, it's an assumption, as much a part of every day life as a car is for us. They have multiple teleportational methods (Boom Tube, Phase Out, Electron Road) to go across normal space and into different dimensions (between Apokolips/New Genesis and Earth, for instance)



I appreciate the apology, though of course it would have been nice if you hadn't laced it with your weak willed passive aggressive attacks.





None of that makes them herald level in combat. They don't have a single combat feat that puts them anywhere on that level. What you've described doesn't have them actually ACTING on anything, you get that don't you? The best evidence you have is that they didn't immediately die when they came face to face with the Surfer.






Show me a few dozen.




Show me the dialog. How much higher? How many?



He's shown the ability to send multiple seeds to one planet (earth) (4 separate that I can think of).





How can that possibly be, when I'm bringing in verifiable examples of technology that Darkseid has demonstrated and generals that he has access to, and you're outright ignoring all of that?





So you have no concept of 'burden of proof', then, yeah? Give me references with page numbers and quotes, and I'll look it up.

Fair?


If you do choose to respond to this, know that unless you bring some hard, verifiable, salient points I'm not going to bother.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Then you obviously didn't understand much of the story then. The fact that you pointed out Ravenous' loss to Xenith as an example speaks volumes of your poor comprehension of the storyline.

No, I accept that different writers portray things differently, and that intent trumps consistency. In the case of Ravenous with or without curs being less powerful, I'm comfortable going either way, but I don't think that DnA were considering it when they wrote the character, in the same way that the fact that they ignored the final cliffhanger of Annihilation didn't mean that it didn't happen. The curs didn't come directly from Annihilus, they were just an easy method for him to control his soldiers.

That said, if that is the take you choose to have, I'm comfortable with it -- it was a less powerful Ravenous. That doesn't change the fact, then, that the seekers have an easily exploitable weakness and zero active feats to back up this mythical combat formidability you're spinning.




Again, do you not understand "Burden of Proof", and how that works? You're making a claim, and one that is totally nonsensical (that the destructive potential of the weapon has nothing to do with the fear with which it is perceived).

Even still, I've made the effort to get you to understand why you're wrong. Since you give no in book documentation to support this, I've used the only real world parallel that is appropriate (the Atomic Bomb).





Not in your response to me, you didn't. You mentioned that the Kree had 'a little help from the Inhumans', ignoring that it was designed almost totally by the Inhumans' resident Super Genius Maximus and that it reflects not at all on the Kree level of technology.




Black Bolt's voice has often been utillized to power weapons and generate effects that he normally wouldn't be capable of.




Yeah, it's not as if I mentioned that I hadn't read the book in a while, yes? And it's not as if the Terrigen Crytals were the most active part of the bomb as initially intended, yeah? And it's not as if the Bomb was being powered partially by Vulcan, right?

Again, YOU are the one who has badly misrepresented this feat as something applicable to the space faring races in general. This was an ultimate weapon designed by a genius far beyond anything the Kree was capable of, one that had been consistently improving upon Kree weaponry since the Royal Family took power. Add to that it was drawing on non replenishable power sources, and your point -- which was, after all, that 'planet destroying weaponry was no big deal' -- is revealed to be a woefully unsupportable.





The saddest part of this is you really don't understand why dismantling your argument above revealed the support for your point to be flimsier that grass.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that planet destroying technology is the 'end all' for technology in the MU. I'm saying that in the context of this story, in the science fiction MU scene, it certainly was.

Characters like Reed Richards or Dr. Doom develop technology to create pocket universes or kill celestials. But in terms of the MU at large, at least in Annihilation, two things were an extremely big deal -- a planet destroying weapon and teleportation technology. Both of these are commonplace in the mythology of the New Gods, even when they are at their worst.





Nope, sorry. Only thing definitively shown destroyed was a planet and a moon.




Haha, what? In issue one, you better have some evidence that Surfer destroyed a planet. Not only was there not a planet to destroy, just a debris field, but ON TOP OF THAT all we saw is that he released a big blast of energy as he left to keep them off his tale.

You've literally invented this event. Perhaps now you'll see how warped your perception is, how desperate you are for any of your points to hold merit?

He destroyed one planet, after being powered up, and the act of it made Ravenous say "How...what have you become?" indicating, I might add, that such a thing was impossibly impressive and far beyond HIS reach.






Again, you're being facile -- is an Atomic Bomb feared because of the destructive power it holds or not?

Your argument, from the way you've presented it, is that destroying planets is commonplace in MU space tech. But what was constantly stressed was that this was a PLANET DESTROYER, and you've ignored it as if it was some small add on. What was it that Super Skrull first commented on, when he talked about it in awed tones? It was the fact that it dissembled a planet. "A weapon of incredible power", 'the most powerful weapon the Annihilation Wave has".

Interpreting at anything else is pure fanboyism.

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that it was 'unstoppable' was terrifying, but the fact that it was unstoppable only further serves to underscore the low level of military technology we're dealing with, at least as compares to Apokolips.

There was a member of Darkseid's Elite who can resurrect the dead. She can match most of the Awave's cannon fodder. Team Darkseid wins.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'll just edit out your overtly passive aggressive side comments, shall I?

No one is arguing that the A-Wave's technology isn't going to be able to have SOME affect on the forces of Apokolips. One need not suffer no casualties to declare a victory.

The bows and arrows of the native americans certainly still hurt the invading europeans, but their technological (and biological) warfare still allowed their relatively small numbers to win the day.

When you have weapons capable of generating armies of artificial warriors or resurrect your dead, the very concept of 'numbers' becomes meaningless...one can just grow more.

When one has weapons capable of destroying entire solar systems or more, the concept of numbers becomes meaningless; one can just destroy the other side en mass.

Numbers are never meaningless for as long as the technology of one side can still affect the other side. Case in point: Tech superiority didn't really help Magellan when he fought against the natives in the Mactan Isles did it?

Also, being able to resurrect a limited number of parademons vs a virtually limitless swarm of enemies still puts the favor with the swarm. :-/

Also, en masse destruction can be done by the Annihilation Wave as well. :-/ It's not as if their weapons are just centered on one-on-one. They've shown that they can wreck planets via their ship weaponry (w/o using the Harvester). And I doubt that even Apokolips has anything that can protect them against the Galactus gun.

Originally posted by Desaad
I think this response is pretty well indicative of the type of argument I feel I've been up against during this 'debate'. An outright refusal to provide any evidence to back up a claim, a bad attitude about being ASKED to do so, and then a not-so-subtle ad hominem attack.

Is there really any point to continuing?

You ask me to provide proof of what should be common knowledge to anyone who's read the Annihilation Wave. You mentioned that you NEEDED proof to prove the numbers superiority of the wave. The way I see it, either you're grossly uninformed or just trying to stall me by forcing me to provide scans on things you should already know. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, it does. With teleport technology, it's EASY to drop a solar system or planet destroying device in the center of Annihilation Wave.

Planet destroying or system destroying blasts will do little vs the wave. The fact that they encompassed THREE whole systems as well as the spaces between these whole systems speaks volumes of the actual size of the wave and how little these weapons can affect them.

Originally posted by Desaad
And just FYI, Galactus isn't an abstract. Not only does he have DNA (as mentioned by Infinity Abyss), but he was confirmed as a physical, rather than abstractual, being in Gru's "Quasar" series, the delineation between he and abstract beings like Eternity specifically being made.

We're talking about 2 different things here. Power level tier rankings and conceptual roles in the cosmic hierarchy are not the same thing. I'm talking about power tier rankings here.

Originally posted by Desaad
Haha, what?

So there is no strategy allowed, is that it?

Running away would constitute a loss via forum rules. Hey, I didn't make the rules.

Originally posted by Desaad
Two points here, and I'm glad you brought this up.

Darkseid has teleportation snares and limitations around Apokolips.

Thanos' prep can just as easily bypass that. I see DS and Thanos prep to be equal.

Originally posted by Desaad
Point two is, this demonstrates exactly the type of difference we're dealing here. To the races and players of Annihilation, teleportation tech was a HUGE deal, a real game changer. But in the mythology of the New Gods, it's an assumption, as much a part of every day life as a car is for us. They have multiple teleportational methods (Boom Tube, Phase Out, Electron Road) to go across normal space and into different dimensions (between Apokolips/New Genesis and Earth, for instance)

Thanos' presence in the Annihilation Wave tipped the scales. Thanos didn't just have basic teleport tech (that most other races have) his was at a higher level than what anyone could duplicate at that time. And yes, teleportation has always been part of Thanos' everyday life as well.

Originally posted by Desaad
None of that makes them herald level in combat. They don't have a single combat feat that puts them anywhere on that level. What you've described doesn't have them actually ACTING on anything, you get that don't you? The best evidence you have is that they didn't immediately die when they came face to face with the Surfer.

Surviving and escaping Black Holes, inflicting damage vs herald levelers and tanking Surfer's blasts DOESN'T make them herald levelers??? Well we seem to have different opinions on what constitute herald level abilities.

Plus the fact that the Opposing Force is the conceptual equal to the Power Cosmic from within the Negative Zone and that it was mentioned MANY times in dialogue as well as the official Annihilation Wave bio (Nova Corps database) that their powers matched that of the heralds?

Originally posted by Desaad
Show me a few dozen.

Show me the dialog. How much higher? How many?


Acual numbers: There were at least 4 (plus Ravenous) when they took down Air Walker about 8 when they took down Terrax. Four more when they pursued the Surfer (not the same Ravenous grp as he was in Annihulus' flagship at the time and this grp was killed when their currs were killed when Firelord and Red Shift arrived). As well as an off panel mention Red Shift that he was attacked by a group of seekers himself. That's at least 2 dozen already not counting those hunting Galactus as well as the other heralds.

Dialogue: We are many. For every one of us you strike down, a dozen more will take up the hunt!

Originally posted by Desaad
He's shown the ability to send multiple seeds to one planet (earth) (4 separate that I can think of).

So, much less numbers than what you're claiming...?

Originally posted by Desaad
How can that possibly be, when I'm bringing in verifiable examples of technology that Darkseid has demonstrated and generals that he has access to, and you're outright ignoring all of that?

Ok then. Provide proof that he's managed to teleport solar system wrecker bombs into space fleets in the past. Prove that he has access to a limitless supply of Brimestones (because you made the claim that he could).

Originally posted by Desaad
So you have no concept of 'burden of proof', then, yeah? Give me references with page numbers and quotes, and I'll look it up.

Fair?

If you do choose to respond to this, know that unless you bring some hard, verifiable, salient points I'm not going to bother.

Heck, read the hardbounds, all the info you need is right there. It's hard to provide all the scans you keep asking for because you literally ask for a swarm of scans. Read Annihilation hardbounds Book 1-3 and you'll find that all I mentioned can be found there.

So you're going to ignore any requests of actual proof of your statements as me asking for a swarm of scans, even when I've repeatedly said that isn't what I need?

Haha, yeah, we're done here.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, I accept that different writers portray things differently, and that intent trumps consistency. In the case of Ravenous with or without curs being less powerful, I'm comfortable going either way, but I don't think that DnA were considering it when they wrote the character, in the same way that the fact that they ignored the final cliffhanger of Annihilation didn't mean that it didn't happen. The curs didn't come directly from Annihilus, they were just an easy method for him to control his soldiers.

That said, if that is the take you choose to have, I'm comfortable with it -- it was a less powerful Ravenous. That doesn't change the fact, then, that the seekers have an easily exploitable weakness and zero active feats to back up this mythical combat formidability you're spinning.

It was SPECIFICALLY mentioned that the curss were the source of the seeker's power and that their power and durability was far lower w/o them (as when Firelord and Stardust literally tore them apart after first killing the currs). It doesn't go "either way"

Well, it's your choice if you wish to ignore their showings vs the Surfer and the other heralds as well as their bios. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Again, do you not understand "Burden of Proof", and how that works? You're making a claim, and one that is totally nonsensical (that the destructive potential of the weapon has nothing to do with the fear with which it is perceived).

I presented points and instances. You just simply ignore them (as in the instance of the Seeker's herald-level abilities).

Originally posted by Desaad
Even still, I've made the effort to get you to understand why you're wrong. Since you give no in book documentation to support this, I've used the only real world parallel that is appropriate (the Atomic Bomb).

Not in your response to me, you didn't. You mentioned that the Kree had 'a little help from the Inhumans', ignoring that it was designed almost totally by the Inhumans' resident Super Genius Maximus and that it reflects not at all on the Kree level of technology.

Black Bolt's voice has often been utillized to power weapons and generate effects that he normally wouldn't be capable of.

Yeah, it's not as if I mentioned that I hadn't read the book in a while, yes? And it's not as if the Terrigen Crytals were the most active part of the bomb as initially intended, yeah? And it's not as if the Bomb was being powered partially by Vulcan, right?

Again, YOU are the one who has badly misrepresented this feat as something applicable to the space faring races in general. This was an ultimate weapon designed by a genius far beyond anything the Kree was capable of, one that had been consistently improving upon Kree weaponry since the Royal Family took power. Add to that it was drawing on non replenishable power sources, and your point -- which was, after all, that 'planet destroying weaponry was no big deal' -- is revealed to be a woefully unsupportable.

Very long post with a lot of points that has little relevance to the topic at hand.

I will reiterate my point: I mentioned that "end-all" weapons systems in the MU isn't as low down the ladder as you keep trying to paint it to be. Weapons of far greater potency have been created and have been shown to be within the levels of technology for the MU spacefaring races.

Nega bombs were used extensively during the Shi'Ar-Kree War. It's not as rare as high up in the tech level as you keep indicating it to be.

Originally posted by Desaad
The saddest part of this is you really don't understand why dismantling your argument above revealed the support for your point to be flimsier that grass.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that planet destroying technology is the 'end all' for technology in the MU. I'm saying that in the context of this story, in the science fiction MU scene, it certainly was.

Where I disagree with you. The AWave has destroyed planets w/o the aid of the Harvester w/c makes your argument (that a planet-destroying weapon was the pinnacle of technological achievement for the AWave) incorrect. If was a superweapon because of its unstoppability as well as the power it possessed.

Why the hell would the Awave WANT a solar system busting weapon anyway? They needed to feed a lot due to the size of the AWave and the weapon turned planets to food. :-/ Destroying entire solar systems doesn't seem like a very productive means to meet their ends.

Originally posted by Desaad
Characters like Reed Richards or Dr. Doom develop technology to create pocket universes or kill celestials. But in terms of the MU at large, at least in Annihilation, two things were an extremely big deal -- a planet destroying weapon and teleportation technology. Both of these are commonplace in the mythology of the New Gods, even when they are at their worst.

Again, planet destroying weapons are commonplace. Everyone had one. This was not the pinnacle of achievement for technology in the MU in general. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Nope, sorry. Only thing definitively shown destroyed was a planet and a moon.

And the fact that it tore a rip in reality parsecs across. You saying the tear wasn't anywhere within the area-of-effect/destructive radius of the bomb? :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Haha, what? In issue one, you better have some evidence that Surfer destroyed a planet. Not only was there not a planet to destroy, just a debris field, but ON TOP OF THAT all we saw is that he released a big blast of energy as he left to keep them off his tale.

You've literally invented this event. Perhaps now you'll see how warped your perception is, how desperate you are for any of your points to hold merit?

Well, I reread the issue. I will concede the fact that my memory of the event it different. It was indeed a debris field. However, it still seemed like a big chunk of Xandar from the artwork and the Seekers easily survived the encounter. My point still stands. Planets have been wrecked nonchalantly by Galactus Heralds.

Originally posted by Desaad
He destroyed one planet, after being powered up, and the act of it made Ravenous say "How...what have you become?" indicating, I might add, that such a thing was impossibly impressive and far beyond HIS reach.

Which still proves that he's destroyed planets nonchalantly. Also, your attempt at trying to downplay Ravenous' abilities by claiming that it was the planet destruction that seemed to impress Ravenous is fallacious. Especially as even the weakest of the heralds (Terrax) has been able to one-shot planets. :-/

So you agree that the Surfer received an upgrade during Annihilation? Good. I'll keep that in mind for future debates.

Originally posted by Desaad
Again, you're being facile -- is an Atomic Bomb feared because of the destructive power it holds or not?

Your argument, from the way you've presented it, is that destroying planets is commonplace in MU space tech. But what was constantly stressed was that this was a PLANET DESTROYER, and you've ignored it as if it was some small add on. What was it that Super Skrull first commented on, when he talked about it in awed tones? It was the fact that it dissembled a planet. "A weapon of incredible power", 'the most powerful weapon the Annihilation Wave has".

And the fact that they couldn't STOP this weapon has no bearing on why it is feared right? The fact that he had to capture the head scientist of the Harvester just to find out if it had any weaknesses also meant that he was just simply afraid of its destructive power amirite?

Again. Sheesh....

Originally posted by Desaad
Interpreting at anything else is pure fanboyism.

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that it was 'unstoppable' was terrifying, but the fact that it was unstoppable only further serves to underscore the low level of military technology we're dealing with, at least as compares to Apokolips.

Except that well, planet destroying is something ALL races have.

You REALLY don't see how fearsome an unstoppable/indestructible planet destroying weapon is? :-/

It's getting late and I need to get to bed. Will debate with you as soon as I wake up.

Originally posted by Desaad
So you're going to ignore any requests of actual proof of your statements as me asking for a swarm of scans, even when I've repeatedly said that isn't what I need?

Haha, yeah, we're done here.

I presented issue numbers, did head counts and pointed out items in dialogues and bios as you requested. :-/ did you even read my post?