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Who wins this all out war? Revan has access to the Star Forge and his apprentice Malak. Sidious has the Death Star and Vader. Discuss.

You've been here long enough to know that there's no civilization in galactic history that is known to be able to match the Enpire in tech. and numbers.

Man, this place sucks.

Well, back in Revan's day, the Republic wasn't anywhere near the unchallenged hyperpower of the late republic/empire. In fact, it was still expanding and the Old Sith Wars more or less eliminated all competition at the cost of nearly destroying the Republic and IMHO being more thorough in wiping out the Jedi order.

So basically what you have is a Superpower whose atleast one extraordinarily powerful factory in regionsthat they will soon findout is less the unknown as they previously thought.

The only hope they have is being sneaky about this and capturing some Star Destroyers. As long as Revan's in charge and can convince Malak to not be a dumbass, the advantage of having an army of Sith Assasins and atleast Sion under his control will allow them to capture some shit and find out WTH has happened.

IF Malak redoes history, then his...methods aren't exactly going to work. at all.

If you give Revan some breathing to figure out what has happened, then this will be a very good fight indeed.

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
If you give Revan some breathing to figure out what has happened, then this will be a very good fight indeed.

He won't get time for some breathing. He and his military forces will get wiped from the face of the Galaxy by superior numbers, technology and probably equal or superior commanders (Thrawn !). The only advantage he has over the Galactic Empire lies in a higher number of Force Users (about 1/3 of the Republic, which might be up to 3000 Sith) and the Star Forge (if one wants to grant him that thing).

Sidious holds a plethora of superweapons and, through history, is familiar with the organisation and weaknesses of Revan's Empire (e.g. location of the Star Forge; Revan's tactics). I don't think that the Star Forge, which can be easily destroyed by the Galactic Empire without having to move into the protective energy field (Death Star, Galaxy Gun, Sun Crusher) or some Sith (assassins, warriors, Lords) will make much of a difference here.

technology ftw.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He won't get time for some breathing. He and his military forces will get wiped from the face of the Galaxy by superior numbers, technology and probably equal or superior commanders (Thrawn !). The only advantage he has over the Galactic Empire lies in a higher number of Force Users (about 1/3 of the Republic, which might be up to 3000 Sith) and the Star Forge (if one wants to grant him that thing).

Sidious holds a plethora of superweapons and, through history, is familiar with the organisation and weaknesses of Revan's Empire (e.g. location of the Star Forge; Revan's tactics). I don't think that the Star Forge, which can be easily destroyed by the Galactic Empire without having to move into the protective energy field (Death Star, Galaxy Gun, Sun Crusher) or some Sith (assassins, warriors, Lords) will make much of a difference here. almost all of those super weapons got beaten.

Better idea, what would the rebellion make of having that many resoruces?

Implosion due to in-fighting at not being able to decide what to do with that many resources.

Prick.

Revan's Sith Empire would decimate the Galactic Empire. The Sith Empire with the Star Forge has limitless resources for creating starships. No matter how many super weapons the GE had, it would be an endless onslaught until all of their weapons were destroyed or the GE ran out of resources. Not to mention the Sith Empire had an army of Dark Jedi, the Galactic Empire has two Sith Lords, that's a huge advantage. While the Galactic Empire managed to wipe out almost all of the Jedi, it was done through underhanded tactics, subertfuge and deception instead of through straight up warfare. Darth Revan's Sith Empire nearly wipe out all the Jedi AND the Republic through conventional warfare, something Darth Sidious couldn't do.

Darth Sidious didn't have to fight the Republic or the Jedi Order, because he usurped one and stealth-murdered the other.

Also, you tell those four year old posts what's for.

The Galactic Empire rofl stomps. The Star Forge is a technology that pumped out millennia old Ships, and is a sitting target. The Death Star's reactor core is equal to hundreds of Super giant stars, while the Star forge relied on power from just one. The Executor has a power output equal to our Sun. Factories in the Galactic Empire obviously are capable of pumping out as many ships and without the need of a celestial object's power source to help it. The biggest fluff we've ever gotten for the Interdictor ships of Revan's time is that it's equal in firepower to a Victory class star destroyer, which is obsolete compared to the power of an Imperial Star Destroyer. Not to mention most Starships back in the day had a Hyperdrive of a rating of 3 IIRC. Also, not sure but I don't think Revan's time had planetary shields. The guns on an Executor can go up to single digit Exatons of firepower, 1 Exaton can pretty much boil all the oceans off a planet and leave it completely glassed. I think all the Empire really has to do is just jump out of Hyperspace on say, Korriban, and just glass the Sith academy present there.

The URL in your sig is busted, btw. You can't host images unless they are directly through KMC, sadly.

And Revan probably only has a chance if he spawns a bajillion ships and has them all bumrush the opposition, because lulz.

I recall that when the Star Forge was at 500% or something equally that high it was only making a dozen ships. I'm probably wrong on that though, does anyone have an exact number how many ships the SF was making? Oh, and TBH I'm too lazy to change my sig, mostly cause I'm not really on here all that much, but thanks anyways.

No clue myself, and too lazy to find out. This thread is kinda lame.

The later era ones can match/exceed them in tech, but the GE is the summit in military size.

The GE is one of the strongest of all time, and it's only competitors are the ones that came after.

This is the Revan Empire


This is a map of galactic expansions over time. The Empire is in *purple*. The KotoR is light blue.





Long-run, sure, it has a never-ending steam... however, it's ships-per-point-in-time is still limited, and the Galactic Empire fleet could destroy it's initial fleet and assault the Star Forge directly.

Death Star solos.

Stormtroopers are superior to sith troopers in every way especially the veteran clones, Sidious's Inquisitorious, Hands, shadow guard, and dark acolyte programs are superior to the dark jedi. The Death Star is superior to the star forge. And vader can easily kill malak like killing a jedi on kessel. Vader can also kill revan. Palpatines empire would win

Originally posted by PTforthewin
Stormtroopers are superior to sith troopers in every way especially the veteran clones, Sidious's Inquisitorious, Hands, shadow guard, and dark acolyte programs are superior to the dark jedi. The Death Star is superior to the star forge. And vader can easily kill malak like killing a jedi on kessel. Vader can also kill revan. Palpatines empire would win sith asassins are weak also

Originally posted by The Merchant
I recall that when the Star Forge was at 500% or something equally that high it was only making a dozen ships. I'm probably wrong on that though, does anyone have an exact number how many ships the SF was making? Oh, and TBH I'm too lazy to change my sig, mostly cause I'm not really on here all that much, but thanks anyways.

You see it producing hundred of starfighters at a time IIRC... I'll look for a clip.

GE wins though.

Here we are.

So yeah, it can create a ton of starfighters in a very short time frame.

GE should still stomp though.

Limitless resources vs a finite one wins every time in war. Revan's Sith Empire wins. And it's not that Sidious didn't have to fight openly, he couldn't. His entire plan hinged on people not knowing what he was doing until it was too late. Had his plot been discovered, he would've been killed. Vs Revan marching straight up to the Republic and Jedi and murdering most of them.

And lets not forget that Sidious reign lasted how long? A few short decades? His empire collapsed from Darth Vader picking him up with one arm and tossing him down that shaft.

The Sith Emporer Revan faced was far more powerful and his empire lasted millennia. It was he who started Revan's sith empire. Sith Empire > Galactic Empire.

Originally posted by Raecino
Limitless resources vs a finite one wins every time in war.

It's not limitless, it's just a continuous flow.


If there's a fleet incoming and you tell it, "I need a hundred capital ships in the next hour!".... you're screwed, it doesn't work that fast.

Plus there's the matter of crew. You need people to actually run your fleet.


The Galactic Empire has far more ships than the Revan Empire yet had managed to produce with the Star Forge, by a good number, and that'll allow them to go and take most of Revan's territory, send offensive missions to find the Forge, and blow it up or conquer it. Thus cutting off the flow of ships.


The Galactic Empire's ships are also bigger and better.






The Sith Empire lasted millennia of isolation. Once it actually came out in the open, it lasted... a few short decades.

Also, it only conquered half the galaxy, to Sidious's all of it.


In terms of proportion-of-galaxy-conquered, Sidious had 100%, Krayt had 80~%, Vitiate had 50~%, and Revan had 30~%.


In absolute amounts of territory, it's even worse, since each era had expanded onto more planets than they had before. You could fit four, maybe five of Revan's Empire into one of Sidious's.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Death Star solos.
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/empire10.png

The maps seem more reliable for a judgment than a single line from a sourcebook, especially given that the maps are, IIRC, newer.

Also:

Leviathan-class

Technical specifications

Length: 600 meters
Armament :
- Quad laser cannons (20)
- Turbolaser cannons (4)
- Ion cannons (2)
- Tractor beam generators (1)
Complement: 48 Sith fighters

Versus

Imperator-class

Technical specifications

Length: 1,600 meters
Armament:
- Dual heavy turbolaser turrets (6)
- Dual heavy ion cannon turrets (2)
- Quad heavy turbolasers (2)
- Triple medium turbolasers (3)
- Medium turbolasers (2)
- Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolasers (60)
- Borstel NK-7 ion cannons (60)
- Phylon Q7 tractor beam projectors (10)
Complement:
- TIE/LN starfighter (48)
- TIE/sa bomber (12)
- TIE boarding craft (12)
- Lambda-class shuttles (8)
- Delta-class stormtrooper transports (15)
- Assault gunboats (5)
- A variable number of Skipray Blastboats
- Gamma-class assault shuttle (1+)
- Repair and recovery vehicles
- Theta-class AT-AT barges
- Sentinel-class landing craft (12)
- AT-AT walkers (20)
- AT-ST walkers (30)
- Prefabricated garrison base (1)

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/empire10.png

http://media.giphy.com/media/Ic97mPViHEG5O/giphy.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/empire10.png

"The Imperial Military was considered a massive organization, with tens of trillions of regular army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew, and a sizable force of stormtroopers."-Rebellion Era Campaign Guide

"You are part of the greatest navy ever assembled."-Imperial Sourcebook

"It would take 1,000 Recusant-class light destroyers to take on a single Mandator-II class Star Dreadnought."-ROTS ICS

^Note that the Executors and pretty much every other Imperial era dreadnought is leagues above the Mandator-II.

The Clone Wars also saw the CIS field millions of capital ships fielded, and anywhere from quadrillions to quintillions of battledroids fielded. The Empire's military was superior to this. The Clone Wars era Republic or the CIS would dominate Revan's Empire, let alone the Galactic Empire.

Vicious stomp.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"The Imperial Military was considered a massive organization, with tens of trillions of regular army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew, and a sizable force of stormtroopers."-Rebellion Era Campaign Guide

"You are part of the greatest navy ever assembled."-Imperial Sourcebook

"It would take 1,000 Recusant-class light destroyers to take on a single Mandator-II class Star Dreadnought."-ROTS ICS

^Note that the Executors and pretty much every other Imperial era dreadnought is leagues above the Mandator-II.

The Clone Wars also saw the CIS field millions of capital ships fielded, and anywhere from quadrillions to quintillions of battledroids fielded. The Empire's military was superior to this. The Clone Wars era Republic or the CIS would dominate Revan's Empire, let alone the Galactic Empire.

The GE fields the largest military in history, larger than even the CIS or the combined factions of the Old Republic era (I'll get you the scan for that). Combined with the technological edge, it crushes Revan effortlessly.

Not according to the above source.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not according to the above source.

The above source is crushed beneath the multitude of sources at my disposal, some of which are newer than the KotOR Campaign Guide.

Besides which, the excerpt goes on to elucidate what it means by "on par" with Palpatine's Empire: in that it has big ships, shocktroopers, and a Death Star-like superweapon.

Doesn't mean it stands a remote chance of taking on the GE, which it doesn't. Revan's Sith are utterly steamrolled.

I don't see how it can field a force larger than the combined factions of the Old Republic when the above source says that just Revans forces had a military on par with the Empire, at least in terms of scale. I generally agree that the tech difference is too vast, but that seems contradictory to me.

Manpower alone would be significantly greater, unless the SW galaxy had a Reaping in between KotOR and the GE.

I believe I've uploaded the scan before, which means I'll have to go trolling through my Photobucket profile, which means I may experience profound heartbreak.

The ex is officially on post-Tempest bf #2; gotta appreciate the time management

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I believe I've uploaded the scan before, which means I'll have to go trolling through my Photobucket profile, which means I may experience profound heartbreak.

The ex is officially on post-Tempest bf #2; gotta appreciate the time management

Has it been a month already?

A month and a half, maybe?

From The Rebellion Era Campaign Guide.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/ImperialNavylargestever_zps36fdacf2.png

Lol, that was only written like 5 months after the Kotor campaign guide.

Did the writer read the latter and was like 'Oh yeah?! Guess again motherf*cker!"?

Newer canon comes first. Tempest provided accurate proof, done deal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, that was only written like 5 months after the Kotor campaign guide.

Did the writer read the latter and was like 'Oh yeah?! Guess again motherf*cker!"?

http://new.rejesus.co.uk/images/area_uploads/sayings/left_right_hand.gif

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A month and a half, maybe?

So I'm not crazy. It is a predictable behavior.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
From The Rebellion Era Campaign Guide.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/ImperialNavylargestever_zps36fdacf2.png

Pwned! Sorry about the gf.

Just to further drive the point home:
http://i.imgur.com/6ixKF3Z.jpg

-The Ultimate Visual Guide

Given that he had nearly a generation to mass forces, versus the few scant years Revan had (if that), this goes without saying.

And again, population increases exponentially with time, unless the SW universe had an extinction/restart event like 300 BBY.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So I'm not crazy. It is a predictable behavior.

Oh, there's crazy involved, it's just not coming from you. I say we assemble a group of jaded psychologists and sociologists and hammer out a research project on this shit.

Then we figure out a way to exploit it for male benefit, write a guide, and sell it for millions.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Oh, there's crazy involved, it's just not coming from you. I say we assemble a group of jaded psychologists and sociologists and hammer out a research project on this shit.

Then we figure out a way to exploit it for male benefit, write a guide, and sell it for millions.

I approve.

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Shaun-Of-The-Dead-Cheers.gif

MOAR!:
http://i.imgur.com/AdnBuDi.jpg



Sidenote: the amount of personnel required just to make the Death Star tick was absolutely staggering:
http://i.imgur.com/LSLoshG.jpg

Not definitive enuff, Galan. We want MOAR.

http://media0.giphy.com/media/GCLlQnV7wzKLu/giphy.gif

Here's the thing, SW is full of hyperbolic statements. Lots of writers like to puff up this or that, and often in non-specific statements.

"On par" is somewhat vague. On part in what sense? It says "a massive galaxy threatening organization on par with the Galactic Empire...". That doesn't say military of the same size. It could be a threat on par, but that's relative to what's threatening.

The Galactic Empire being the biggest military is more heavily supported from more sources, *much* more specific, and just plum makes sense.


In TOR, Harrowers are the best ships ever when they come into the field. They're a step above prior ships like KotoR ships. Both by description, and simply examining them- they're bigger and badder than Revan's ships.

Harrowers are mini Star Destroyers. Less than half the size of an Imperial. 2/3rds the size of a Victory.

That says a lot about where the ships stand.


On a similar note, the Great Hyperspace War Sith Empire once threatened the galaxy. They probably had less forces than a number of the big Imperial warlords like Zsinj, who didn't threaten the galaxy, because what he was facing was so much bigger.



Not so much for a galaxy, really. A mere million is pretty tiny.

What was required to build it was rather more impressive.





You can see the territory of the galaxy expand over time too. From this and this map (and to an extent, this one, which shows the absolute furthest extent of known space), there's sectors major population centers that weren't even explored in earlier times. And the empire and post-empire time were an era of even more exploration, so there's areas still being added.

I'm not sure who had more territory between Palpatine and Krayt for that reason, despite Palpatine's conquests being more complete.

Originally posted by Q99
Not so much for a galaxy, really. A mere million is pretty tiny. Who is talking about a galaxy? I'm talking about a single space station.

And I would like to point out that the Death Star's main crew already "exceeded" a million beings--and that number did not include the additional 25,000+ Stormtroopers and 400,000+ droids that were also on board. That being said, the DS's cumulative roster was likely pushing 2 million-- but still lol @ you saying "a mere million" as though it's nothing.

Anywho, the aforementioned is most certainly a gargantuan number of personnel to all be housed in a single vessel.

^That actually seems quite low considering that the Acclamator-I class transports carried 16,000 troops each.

Originally posted by Galan007
Who is talking about a galaxy? I'm talking about a single space station.

And I would like to point out that the Death Star's main crew already "exceeded" a million beings--and that number did not include the additional 25,000+ Stormtroopers and 400,000+ droids that were also on board. That being said, the DS's cumulative roster was likely pushing 2 million-- but still lol @ you saying "a mere million" as though it's nothing.

Anywho, the aforementioned is most certainly a gargantuan number of personnel to all be housed in a single vessel.

Yea, I just mean, with a galaxy, it's not a strain on humanpower to fill it.


I imagine one could fill it with tens, even hundreds of millions pretty easily. Maybe more. One million is just *crew*.



In full swing, the Death Star should pretty much be a mobile fleet base/supply station/military colony in one.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
^That actually seems quite low considering that the Acclamator-I class transports carried 16,000 troops each. Please don't misunderstand my point and/or put words in my mouth. I am not talking about the size of a particular ship in relation to the number of personnel aboard. I am simply referencing the total number of personnel available in one location, on one ship/station. And in that respect, 2 million is absurdly vast.

As an example: the next closest thing to the Death Star's numbers I could find was the Executor, with a crew numbering 280,000.

Originally posted by Galan007
Please don't misunderstand my point and/or put words in my mouth. I am not talking about the size of a particular ship in relation to the number of personnel aboard. I am simply referencing the total number of personnel available in one location, on one ship/station. And in that respect, 2 million is absurdly vast.

As an example: the next closest thing to the Death Star's numbers I could find was the Executor, with a crew number of 280,000.

For comparison, the Executor is only moderately shorter than the island of Manhattan, and much taller.

You could certainly *fit* millions onto the Executor!


The Death Star's gotta have crew at only a few key areas, most of it are just empty stuff as-of the movies. Room to expand and then some.

Eh, well hopefully no one here is of the opinion that the Empire jam-packs as many personnel as possible into their ships/stations. They only utilize what is required.

I remember something from the New Republic stuff that said they vastly scaled back the personnel for the capital ships. The 30+ thousand in the Empire's ISDs was brought down to like 2,000ish. They were overmanned.

Damned if I came remember where that came from.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I remember something from the New Republic stuff that said they vastly scaled back the personnel for the capital ships. The 30+ thousand in the Empire's ISDs was brought down to like 2,000ish. They were overmanned.

Damned if I came remember where that came from.


Fleet numbers are hard to find anyway. WEG's RPG books put the number of actual ISDs at just 2,500 to begin with, though with also very large numbers of smaller ships.


The NR definitely did drowngrade.

I think, post-Vong, the GA kept a larger fleet, as people more accepted the need after dealing with a giant invasion.

By Legacy, GA ship sizes had downgraded but they were focused to be very high-firepower ships (rather than having spread out coverage like most ships, they were designed to maximize firepower on one target with newer, higher power turbolasers and thus punch above their weightclass).

I get Galan's point though. One space station required in excess of a million beings. Not civilians just mulling about, but trained military operatives from every branch. That they could replace such a thing and its crew in 4 years, and nonuple it--all while fielding an unprecedented, gargantuan armada and war machine is... quite the economical/logistical achievement.



I don't know what that Raecino is going on about. The Star Forge could produce limitless resources on a fixed scale. Being able to churn out one donut every minute forever won't feed all the starving cops right now. That those donuts also require living pilots to fly them to the cops (pilots that can't be produced like the donuts can), hinders the feeding frenzy even more.

Indeed.

The Star Forge could likely just create droids to pilot the ships.

Using infinite mass and energy.

They don't call it the Finite Empire you know!

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Star Forge could likely just create droids to pilot the ships.

Perhaps, but so far it's not set up for that, and droid ships have inferior performance.



Originally posted by Lord Lucien

I don't know what that Raecino is going on about. The Star Forge could produce limitless resources on a fixed scale. Being able to churn out one donut every minute forever won't feed all the starving cops right now. That those donuts also require living pilots to fly them to the cops (pilots that can't be produced like the donuts can), hinders the feeding frenzy even more.

Good analogy.


And heck, let's not forget the Empire has a ton of shipyards. Any individually may make much less than the Star Forge, collectively they still make ships at a pretty good rate.


So sure, one donut a minute forever is pretty nice, but get enough chefs hand-making donuts and the rate isn't going to be that different, even if they need to sleep occasionally.