Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Battle site is Malachor V

Force
Lightsaber
All Out

WTF is this shit?

Luke wins. This would be similar to a footrace between the Flash(DC) and Jabbe the Hutt.

Luke ftw

Truculent, why do you keep using Unknowns?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Truculent, why do you keep using Unknowns?

Yes, I'd like that answered too.

Traya is far from an unknown, we have several feats of hers.


And NJO Luke wins.

Originally posted by Q99
Traya is an unknown, we have no feats of hers.


agreed.

I know it's a popular brain bug to say that around here with anything KotoR related, but honestly there's a fair amount of info from cut scenes and such.


It's not even like Revan and the Exile where their capabilities are vague due to having to be customizable. Traya, we know, has killed Jedi Masters who have in turn shown up in other material. Known kills of known characters with known means.

known characters? I personally have no idea the skills of any of the jedi that she killed. Can you enlighten me? I know they are pretty good talkers, but I have no idea their combat ability.

Originally posted by truejedi
known characters? I personally have no idea the skills of any of the jedi that she killed. Can you enlighten me? I know they are pretty good talkers, but I have no idea their combat ability.

One of 'em, Vrook, was the Jedi Master and council member who lead the assault on the Draay estate in the KotoR comics. He and the two others also were planning to strip the Exile of her connection to the force permanently, which requires a fair amount of force mastery.


But they could've been base apprentices, or three complete no-name masters, and it'd still be a feat to force-drain them to death. Traya was a major character in a fairly long game which includes a lot of background information. We have plenty of info on fights and feats around that time.

A character being from KotoR games =/= 'no info'.

Wanna argue shaky/limited info? Sure. But we don't have 'nothing,' we have the KotoR games and in some cases comics.

Originally posted by Q99


Wanna argue shaky/limited info?

nah, i really, really don't. Believe what you want.

surrender

Originally posted by Q99
One of 'em, Vrook, was the Jedi Master and council member who lead the assault on the Draay estate in the KotoR comics. He and the two others also were planning to strip the Exile of her connection to the force permanently, which requires a fair amount of force mastery. How much, and how do you measure it?


Originally posted by Q99
But they could've been base apprentices, or three complete no-name masters, and it'd still be a feat to force-drain them to death. Traya was a major character in a fairly long game which includes a lot of background information. We have plenty of info on fights and feats around that time. No, not really.

Originally posted by Q99
A character being from KotoR games =/= 'no info'. True, but it does = 'unquantifiable'. Unless you're Nihilus. Kinda.


Originally posted by Q99
Wanna argue shaky/limited info? Sure. But we don't have 'nothing,' we have the KotoR games and in some cases comics. The comics aren't that spectacular at detailing combat ability. Their visual aids, sure, but being comics they're also exaggerated, and story driven.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
How much, and how do you measure it?

How do you measure any non-combat force power?

We do know it's something that is rare in any era, suggesting significant force mastery is needed.



I can quantify it, "at least enough to take down three random Jedi masters, one a council member." We have a general idea of how strong Jedi masters are, so

It's not precise, but it is quantifiable to an approximate amount.

We also have her relationships with many other characters, like that she trained both Sion and Nihilus, and that they felt the need to team up to take her down (at least barring Nihilus using his force-eat power). If you have a web of dozens characters who all interact with each other, you get an idea of how they relate to each other in ability. If you have a bunch of people who can be judged approximate to each other, then that gives basis to start judging them against other groups too, especially when there are a few who interact with those from other eras (Celeste Morne most obviously).




Equal or less than a lot of other EU stuff, like NJO. The DH comics in the last few years (ever since Republic) tend to be fairly down-to-Earth and in line with the movies.

If we discount them on that, we'd have to discount the EU in general.

Originally posted by Q99
How do you measure any non-combat force power?

We do know it's something that is rare in any era, suggesting significant force mastery is needed. Talented use of a technique is not indicative of power level or strength. How does Kreia's Force push hold up against Kenobi's? What's her saber style? What's her specific mentality? How much is too much for her? What's her limits? Specifically.



Originally posted by Q99
I can quantify it, "at least enough to take down three random Jedi masters, one a council member." We have a general idea of how strong Jedi masters are, so

It's not precise, but it is quantifiable to an approximate amount.

We also have her relationships with many other characters, like that she trained both Sion and Nihilus, and that they felt the need to team up to take her down (at least barring Nihilus using his force-eat power). If you have a web of dozens characters who all interact with each other, you get an idea of how they relate to each other in ability. If you have a bunch of people who can be judged approximate to each other, then that gives basis to start judging them against other groups too, especially when there are a few who interact with those from other eras (Celeste Morne most obviously).This isn't quantifying her abilities, it's summarizing what she did. I can do the exact same thing about the Care Bears. There is nothing specific about the power behind anybody's attacks. We have no narrative, no canon commentary, no detailed description of what they canonically can do how well they can do in given circumstances. EVERYTHING is conjecture with these guys. The only person who might have something to their name is Nihilus and his dubious pulling of the Ravager from Malachor's gravity well. But given the information comes from a loading screen and an in-universe character, it's not all too solid.




Originally posted by Q99
Equal or less than a lot of other EU stuff, like NJO. The DH comics in the last few years (ever since Republic) tend to be fairly down-to-Earth and in line with the movies.

If we discount them on that, we'd have to discount the EU in general. Hence the trick of trying find the right path. But at least for all the characters concerned in those, we can measure their strengths. For the KotOR guys, we can only discuss that they did stuff, not how.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

This isn't quantifying her abilities, it's summarizing what she did. I can do the exact same thing about the Care Bears. There is nothing specific about the power behind anybody's attacks.

That it's enough to kill doesn't tell you anything? it tells you that it's at least enough to do that.

She does stuff that has X effect. X is your low-end quantity.

Also it's quite possible to quantify the Care Bears...


It's not as easy to do as a comic or novel, but it sounds to me like you posters around here just aren't used to working with figuring out approximate ranges from this stuff and/or used to dealing with games rather than actually lacking info.



Sure we do.

KotoR games are full of narrative and are canon. We see how they do in various circumstances; sure, you can't count game play stuff, but you can count the scripted stuff.




And scripted events and the actions within them. That's not conjecture, that's something a SW author wrote down of them doing stuff.




And knowing that they did X or Y tells us that they can do them and have enough strength to do those things.


Plus as we actually see some of those events in the game.



Just because it's not in a book doesn't make it not count, not wanting to count game feats isn't the same thing as not having information in them.



Well, I'm not going to continue on, this is just the debater in me running into something that bugs me The information's there and it's a valid source if someone ever does want to dig through it and quantify stuff for the people here.

@ Q99:

Originally posted by Q99
And knowing that they did X or Y tells us that they can do them and have enough strength to do those things.


So if I tell you that Obi-Wan beat Maul, then Obi-Wan has the strength to beat him, but is he better? If I tell you that a skinny 16 year old fought and beat some professional boxer, wouldn't it be important to know how he did it?

Originally posted by Q99
That it's enough to kill doesn't tell you anything? it tells you that it's at least enough to do that.

She does stuff that has X effect. X is your low-end quantity.Kreia attacks with X powered up until____. Can her X at lvl.____ break Kenobi's defense of Y?

I'm serious, answer that. Can Kreia's Force TK break through Kenobi's mental defenses ala Dooku, and how easily? Don't give me your opinion or what you "feel" it "looked" like that she "likely" had. Give me facts.

Originally posted by Q99
It's not as easy to do as a comic or novel, but it sounds to me like you posters around here just aren't used to working with figuring out approximate ranges from this stuff and/or used to dealing with games rather than actually lacking info.The last part of that sentence is confusing, but whatever...

We here (what remains of us), are used to using measurable facts. Not speculative facts.



Originally posted by Q99
Sure we do.

KotoR games are full of narrative and are canon. We see how they do in various circumstances; sure, you can't count game play stuff, but you can count the scripted stuff.



And scripted events and the actions within them. That's not conjecture, that's something a SW author wrote down of them doing stuff.No, there is no narrative. There is no omniscient author describing to us the story's events and the characters' abilities, mentalities, follies, thoughts, skills, etc. We're given in-universe characters to opine on themselves and their surroundings. In-universe talk<<<omniscient narrator/author/George Lucas.



Originally posted by Q99
And knowing that they did X or Y tells us that they can do them and have enough strength to do those things. Strength enough to defeat/withstand/stand up to other era characters? Vader and Kenobi match each others' Force push. Will Mical's Force push stymie Kenobi's? Will Galen Marek's skill be enough to counter Malak's Force Lightning?

Again, I'm serious. Answer those question. USING FACTS.


Originally posted by Q99
Plus as we actually see some of those events in the game.You're right, we do. We see the Leviathon bomb Taris. We KNOW that those lasers, from that year, from that ship, can do THIS to THAT building.

We see Kreia drain three Jedi Masters. We KNOW that SHE can drain THOSE masters. Can she do the exact same thing to Mace Windu, or Ki-Adi-Mundi? If she can, answer how. If she can't, answer why not.

We KNOW that Revan can Force Choke a Republic officer. Can his Force choke incapacitate Kyp Durron?

We KNOW that Revan and Malak defeated a Rakatan droid. Will their combined power be enough to defeat DE Luke and Darth Caedus?



Again, I'm serious. Answer those, using facts.



Originally posted by Q99
Just because it's not in a book doesn't make it not count, not wanting to count game feats isn't the same thing as not having information in them.Truth.



Originally posted by Q99
Well, I'm not going to continue on, this is just the debater in me running into something that bugs me The information's there and it's a valid source if someone ever does want to dig through it and quantify stuff for the people here. No, the information is there and provides the potential for valid statistics to be formed.

We know a whole shitload of "whats" in KotOR, and no "hows". Unfortunately for you, we're stodgy, cranky people who need sources and stats and feats and quantifiable evidence. We need "hows". If you can provide them, by all means...

Originally posted by ares834
WTF is this shit?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So if I tell you that Obi-Wan beat Maul, then Obi-Wan has the strength to beat him, but is he better? If I tell you that a skinny 16 year old fought and beat some professional boxer, wouldn't it be important to know how he did it?


A lot of the time we aren't talking "So and so beat X offscreen."


We're talking cutscenes. We don't just know that it happened, we see them do it. The force-drain most obviously, we see how she does it right there, and it's hardly the only such feat.

We also have some events that are only 'that it happened,' like Traya's defeat by the duo, but when you have on-screen 'hows' in addition... you honestly have info.


*Shrugs* You have the information. Dunno why you pretend it's not there.




Lesse, Ki I would think almost certainly yes, Mace probably not. Mace can block dark side powers even from the oft-called strongest Sith ever, and Ki Adi's not likely stronger than three other masters combined and doesn't have any specific anti-dark side abilities abilities.

So Mace's skills allow him to defend, but Ki-Adi not so much so.




Force choke rarely works force user vs force user, so I would say no.




Well the Rakatan droid feat on it's own doesn't give us enough info to judge, but it's still a feat.

If you wanted to compare them to a different droid then it'd be a proper example.





Ok, done.

These are just the same questions every character who hasn't actually fought their vs opponent faces.


A lot of people around here, you included, know SW better than I do, no question. But I do know vs fights and what can be used as evidence, and you have a source with actionable info, no question.

Dunno why you don't want to acknowledge that you have at least some in that game, but you do.

Originally posted by Q99
You have the information. Dunno why you pretend it's not there.


Because we don't have the information. You say this, and then in answering the Ki-Adi-Mundi and Mace question, you go straight into speculation because you DON'T have the information: Look:



You have no idea if Ki is more powerful than the 3 jedi masters that traya faced. Neither do I. If we had SOME idea of those master's abilities, we could make a statement.

Evan Piel was a Jedi master (council member even) who was killed by 5 stormtroopers. There was no element of surprise, nothing, he just lost.

If these 3 masters from KOTOR are of that level, then Traya's feat means little to nothing, and it is a LONG way from saying that she is better than Ki-Adi-Mundi.

If however, these masters are all at a very high level (Mace, or even Kenobi, or heck even QGJ) then this is a very good feat indeed.
The Truth is, we don't know WHAT level these masters are, so other than your speculation (you said yourself that you THINK so) we know NOTHING about Traya's ability against skilled force users. She loses horribly to Nihilus and to Sion. Sion had lost to many many Jedi if his quotes are to be believed.

Zannah wasn't better than Bane, but she knew an attack that he didn't know how to block. This could very possibly be what happened to these 3 masters.

This would give us ZERO insight into what such an attack would do against a superior force-user. Since we can't say for certain if Ki-Adi is superior or inferior to those 3, we can't say for certain if Traya is inferior or superior to Ki-Adi.






Unless I'm wrong, didn't revan have the option to avoid fighting the droid?





No, Yoda never fought Kenobi, but we know Yoda was more powerful based on OOU quotations, common opponents (Dooku) and known feats. (Yoda lifting two gigantic Troop ships off the ground and smashing them together).
We need the method of skill, and a substantiated opponent to begin to draw lines.

Q99, if you legitimately don't understand what we're trying to tell you--like you just don't get it, then... then wow, I guess. Can't really think of much else to say other than that.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Q99, if you legitimately don't understand what we're trying to tell you--like you just don't get it, then... then wow, I guess. Can't really think of much else to say other than that.

It's not the problem that people don't get it, it's that they don't want to get it.

Vrook survived the Jedi Civil War and later purge and was assigned to lead battle task forces on occasion. The Mandalorians believed Kavar would be placed in command of the Jedi war efforts against them as he was famous as a Jedi guardian. He also fought against the forces of Darth Malak and was personally involved in the Onderon Civil War.

Of the three, only Zez-Kai doesn't have a war record we know of.



Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Q99, if you legitimately don't understand what we're trying to tell you--like you just don't get it, then... then wow, I guess. Can't really think of much else to say other than that.

I'm pretty sure I get it, I just disagree. You really do have evidence there, but you seem to be engaging in fallacious reasoning to ignore it.


"We know nothing of so and so."
"They did X and Y to Z."
"Yes, but we know nothing of Z."
"Sure we do, they did G and H to R."
"But we don't know anything of R!"

Every time a feat is posted, you just pass it on to the next level as if that completely nullified it, even though if you follow anyone's events you'll eventually get to people doing stuff to no-names.

You've somehow managed to reduce "engaging in combat and demonstrating on screen abilities, as well as knowing what other people think of them and having literally seen dozens of battle of Jedi and Sith in that era to get an idea of what they're like," to "not knowing the slightest thing," in your heads.

Originally posted by Q99
Vrook survived the Jedi Civil War and later purge and was assigned to lead battle task forces on occasion. The Mandalorians believed Kavar would be placed in command of the Jedi war efforts against them as he was famous as a Jedi guardian. He also fought against the forces of Darth Malak and was personally involved in the Onderon Civil War.

Of the three, only Zez-Kai doesn't have a war record we know of.





I'm pretty sure I get it, I just disagree. You really do have evidence there, but you seem to be engaging in fallacious reasoning to ignore it.


"We know nothing of so and so."
"They did X and Y to Z."
"Yes, but we know nothing of Z."
"Sure we do, they did G and H to R."
"But we don't know anything of R!"

Every time a feat is posted, you just pass it on to the next level as if that completely nullified it, even though if you follow anyone's events you'll eventually get to people doing stuff to no-names.

You've somehow managed to reduce "engaging in combat and demonstrating on screen abilities, as well as knowing what other people think of them and having literally seen dozens of battle of Jedi and Sith in that era to get an idea of what they're like," to "not knowing the slightest thing," in your heads. We tried guys.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
We tried guys.


Just to be clear in a brief fashion: Your stance is actually that we cannot draw useful information from the KotoR games?

Originally posted by Q99
Just to be clear in a brief fashion: Your stance is actually that we cannot draw useful information from the KotoR games? No. My stance is that, despite the existence of canon cutscenes and events, there is not enough detail surrounding them or their combatants to accurately use in a Vs. match. Too much of it is visual (for the games, all of it is), with far too little being offered in the way of definitive, indisputable statistics. Knowing that Malak was proficient in Force Lightning offers us---we debators---no way to contrast that in regards to... anyone else. We don't know how Revan's saber skills measure up against Anakins, we don't how Kreia's... Force Scream would affect Mace Windu, we don't know how Malak's Lightning would affect Bane, we don't know how Bastila's Force push would affect Ahsoka Tano, we don't know how Bandon's... whatever would affect Anakin Solo.

There's information on KotOR characters, but not enough of the right kind.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No. My stance is that, despite the existence of canon cutscenes and events, there is not enough detail surrounding them or their combatants to accurately use in a Vs. match. Too much of it is visual (for the games, all of it is), with far too little being offered in the way of definitive, indisputable statistics.

I think there's more than you're giving credit for, especially considering the connection to the comics which in turn gives us comparisons to other eras.



Saying we don't have enough definitive, indisputable statistics is a fallacy of the excluded middle. We have definite, indisputable statistics on almost no-one in SW, and we have less information on many other people whom you are willing to debate.




But the same reasoning you use to write off all those feats could easily be used to write off all of Bane's or any number of others. After all, Bane has had far less interaction with other eras and fewer feats than the KotoR characters.

We don't know how Bane's saber skill measures up against Anakin's, or how his lightning would affect Krayt, but we know how they match up against Ka'sim and Hoth, from which we can guess the former but we can't really know any cross-era fight at all by your logic.

We have easily the same amount to work with on the KotoR era as a whole as we do Bane's.

You're projecting a greater lack of information than exists, and repeating that we have none and shaking your head and saying I don't 'get it' when I disagree, with examples, doesn't change whether there's information really there.

We can never tell with 100% certainty how two characters who never interact with certainty, but we do have enough information to tell that probably Kreia would force-drain the heck out of Ki-Adi-Mundi.




And to me, that really comes off as just writing them off without really breaking down and examining what's there.


And if you don't want to? That's fine! I most certainly have not done so either, I've mostly focused on one or two examples to show how much info you can glean from a single showing. But the debater in me objects to equating having not done the necessary work to go over a game as not having the capability to, especially if other people are willing to debate the subject.

Originally posted by Q99
I think there's more than you're giving credit for, especially considering the connection to the comics which in turn gives us comparisons to other eras. Nothing specific or useful.



Originally posted by Q99
Saying we don't have enough definitive, indisputable statistics is a fallacy of the excluded middle. We have definite, indisputable statistics on almost no-one in SW, and we have less information on many other people whom you are willing to debate.In the RotS novelization and director's commentary, we're given insight in to every combative character worth a fig. That commentary helps us with our analyses. I'd like for you to point out to me the following things, that quite frankly, we NEED in this forum:

1.) Revan's saber style.
2.) Revan's mentality in his fight against a.)Bastila's strike team, b.) Calo Nord, c.) Bandon, d.) Dark Bastila, and e.) Malak. Point out to me how strong Revan's Force push was. Point out to me how fast he moved. Point out to me the step-by-step sequence of every fight.

Do it, seriously, because these are all things we need to do a proper Vs.




Originally posted by Q99
But the same reasoning you use to write off all those feats could easily be used to write off all of Bane's or any number of others. After all, Bane has had far less interaction with other eras and fewer feats than the KotoR characters.

We don't know how Bane's saber skill measures up against Anakin's, or how his lightning would affect Krayt, but we know how they match up against Ka'sim and Hoth, from which we can guess the former but we can't really know any cross-era fight at all by your logic.We know that Bane and his Orbalisks could withstand a million volts of electricity. We know that, despite a Jedi team empowered by Battle Meditation, they couldn't defeat Bane. We know that Bane's Force push pulverized a wall. We have a detailed playthrough of his duel with Kas'im. And so on. Where's Revan's?

Originally posted by Q99
We have easily the same amount to work with on the KotoR era as a whole as we do Bane's. No, Bane has three novels. KotOR's got... two games and comics that DO NOT give us shit to work with. And if I recall the first KotOR right, every cutscene that involves Revan has him literally just standing there waiting for optional dialogue. If he and Malak traded barbs that revealed their past exploits, such as "that time when you used Force Lightning to cook the atmosphere of that planet", THEN we've got some stats to work with. As it is, everything that Revan is described as relies on the opinion of others. And they're pretty vague. No clear indication of measurable power we can stack against other combatants. It's all the same old "he was really powerful", "he was really skilled", "he was the best". The writers had to design him like that because to give too much away would risk ruining the twist and it would deplete the customizable feeling of the RPG. Completely understandable, but unfortunately doesn't work in our favour.

Originally posted by Q99
You're projecting a greater lack of information than exists, and repeating that we have none and shaking your head and saying I don't 'get it' when I disagree, with examples, doesn't change whether there's information really there.And you're holding on to a belief that visuals alone are enough.

Originally posted by Q99
We can never tell with 100% certainty how two characters who never interact with certainty, but we do have enough information to tell that probably Kreia would force-drain the heck out of Ki-Adi-Mundi.How strong were those Jedi Master in comparison to Mundi? Or Windu? Or Yoda? What information are you going by that makes you presume that Kreia's technique is indefensible? I'll say ask again: Give me more than visuals.




Originally posted by Q99
And to me, that really comes off as just writing them off without really breaking down and examining what's there.Did you know that I thought that Kenobi's duel against Grievous was nothing spectacular? I figured Kenobi wasn't worth his weight in saber-gold. And then I read the RotS novel which clearly outlines his utter mastery of defensive styles and his ability to match up to 20 strikes a second from Grievous. Guess how much of that I got from the visuals?


Originally posted by Q99
And if you don't want to? That's fine! I most certainly have not done so either, I've mostly focused on one or two examples to show how much info you can glean from a single showing. But the debater in me objects to equating having not done the necessary work to go over a game as not having the capability to, especially if other people are willing to debate the subject. Despite what you may think, this forum is not a democracy. Popular opinion rules the day, and this place has settled in to a lull of needing every fact it can collect about characters. There's a reason why it's so boring now: we've been re-using the same people time and again, because only a certain amount of them ahve the information required to conduct one of these debates. And every now and then, someone like yourself comes along and tries the... "imagination" approach. Profilagte tried it, Advent's used it recently, and now you. Hang around for another year or so, there's a good chance most of us old members will have left and you can rise to replace us with your preferred methods of... observing visuals.

Q99, this is the Old School "KOTOR sucks" mafia. It used to be possible to argue toherwise, but then a crapton of old guys either got banend or left.

Imagine if Ralson, MJ, Admiral Vice, Lord Squishy, foamy and about 8 or so others got called on their bullshit (Basically, the guys who either non-stop troll or do nothing but ***** and complain while offering few if any ideas of their own and do little else besides sniping) and were told that, basically, to stop their trolling, regardless of its currently approved nature, and refused to do so.

Except, the guys who got kicked here were rarely trolls and, while occasionally abrasive, were actual, serious contributors. Basically, the exact opposite of Ralson or Vice. Imagine if SB didn't go by a "Approved" flaming rule and simply were brutally intolerant of those who flamed, and were indifferent to whether the target 'earned' it or not. Imagine if SB's staff treated every flame as the same and banned them all without prejudice. The staff here did that, and only a few parts of KMC have escaped somewhat intact.

Or better yet, imagine if all the Atheist who had very low tolerance for anything outside there beliefs and used SDN as their nerd-stomping ground were banned.

The Moderatorship here somewhat accidentally killed and banned the heart and soul of this place. Except, while a few are still around, refuse to accept anything outside of Lucas' rather incompetent rules of canon.

Bingo.

And whaaa?

That was meant as a pm to Q99.

Got the PM page and the public posting page confused, huh? Happens to me all the time.

EDIT: Oh, shit.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Got the PM page and the public posting page confused, huh? Happens to me all the time.

EDIT: Oh, shit. Uh huh.

Luke wins easily, unless if Traya's attack is unblockable.

Originally posted by KMCmember
Luke wins easily, unless if Traya's attack is unblockable.

Unless is a necessary condition while if is a sufficient condition. Putting one after the other is just plain WRONG.

So did you like, merge with Red or something?

That's offensive to one of them. Guess who.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So did you like, merge with Red or something?

No, I just wanted to sound like a pseudo intellectual douchebag. You have insulted me sir and I demand satisfaction.

Pistols at noon? Rapiers? Drink?

Darth Traya no doubt. At Malachor V she channels the dark energy. Shes the Dark lord that trained Dark lord Revan, Lord Sion, And Dark lord Nihilus. Three very powerful Sith. She also trained the exile to feel the force once again. She may not be a great lightsbaer duelist but she would easliy over come luke with her force abilities

No she won't. Instakill for tEh win.

Luke easily overcomes traya for the win.

Sometimes, you can tell a lot about a person just by seeing his name.