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What do you honestly feel about this important issue?

Im talking about countries like the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Holland & the Scandinavian nations.

I haven't noticed it.

Fail in France.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Fail in France.

And Holland

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Fail in France. Win in Switzerland

50:50 in germany

first generation immigrants where great. Norway needed them. But their children is a bunch of hoodlums (exceptions obviously)

Originally posted by Parmaniac
50:50 in germany I hear the Germans give the Turks a hard time. http://static.bbmp3.com/smilies/fbj4fb.jpg.png

Originally posted by Dr. Leg Kick
Win in Switzerland

Swiss are sneaky ones....they're all like ''yey, we're Switzerland we're so full of virtue and European goodness'' but when they get pissed off, they're all like: 'GTFO' out of our European province...I mean country.

Norway is a beautiful country, i'd like to see it for myself.

Originally posted by Dr. Leg Kick
I hear the Germans give the Turks a hard time. Depends in which region you live, that's why I would say 50:50

Originally posted by amnesia
first generation immigrants where great. Norway needed them. But their children is a bunch of hoodlums (exceptions obviously)

Sydney, Australia I heard is the most multicultural city in the world apparently. And there is racism everywhere.

And although you meet your exceptions most foreigners just go into their own cultures and aren't even interested in communicating with us.

It's pretty much a failure here. But we'll see how it pans out.

I was confronted by a beggar today. He had a note that said "I am from Moldova, i have two children and no job. Can i please have some money?"

I gave him money and ran away.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Sydney, Australia I heard is the most multicultural city in the world apparently. And there is racism everywhere.

And although you meet your exceptions most foreigners just go into their own cultures and aren't even interested in communicating with us.

It's pretty much a failure here. But we'll see how it pans out.

Yeah that's totally f*cked up, last year alot of Indian students were beaten & robbed in OZ.
I found that very disgusting considering that all of my Australian friends are probably the most nicest & hilarious people i have met.

Originally posted by amnesia
first generation immigrants where great. Norway needed them. But their children is a bunch of hoodlums (exceptions obviously)

I just found out that Pakis are Norway's largest visible ethic minority group & i hope they don't screw things up over there just like they did in the UK.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Swiss are sneaky ones....they're all like ''yey, we're Switzerland we're so full of virtue and European goodness'' but when they get pissed off, they're all like: 'GTFO' out of our European province...I mean country. LOL I believe it.

Not really. We usually get the workaholics over here. However, Norway is a bit too liberal. The government is seriously considering to take in any immigrant without question.

Originally posted by majid86
Yeah that's totally f*cked up, last year alot of Indian students were beaten & robbed in OZ.
I found that very disgusting considering that all of my Australian friends are probably the most nicest & hilarious people i have met.

Indians and Aussies get along pretty well. Unfortunately they pegged alot of the blame on us. But alot of asian cultures fight their disputes here. 10 guys on 1 shit.

And the whole world points there finger at us. What are we supposed to do.
I live in a place considered the most violent in Sydney. And even though schools try to warn students of the no go zones alot don't listen.

An indigenous man followed an asian girl home from my local station forced her into her apartment with her 2 friends, made them do messed up stuff. Then made two off them jump off an 8 story balcony.

I see foreigners walking around here with their IPods out and think "What the hell are they doing? If I was a criminal I'll be RICH!"

I hope Australia can recover from what you said & ive always gotten along with Australians just fine.
Blonde Australian girls are very sexy btw.

Canada probably has had the best success internationally with multiculturalism, or so my state run news system has lead me to believe

Im gonna immigrate to Canada when im 30 which is in 6 years time.
Vancouver, BC is the place for me & i believe all things from Canada are great well maybe accept Celine Dion.

how much do you like winter?

Originally posted by inimalist
how much do you like winter?

I love the winter and i actually went to Canada early this year to enjoy the Winter Olympics with my Canadian family.
Im British & i love the UK but i wanna live the rest of my life in Vancouver with my future Punjabi Canadian wife.

The problem is in the name...It means many cultures...And that's exactly what we've ended up with...Lots of different cultures existing separately within small geographical areas. The initial idea was to mix the cultures but each culture effectively make their own ghettos. In some places it has led to very large problems....Paris, Bradford and Oldham being 3 examples I can think of off the top of my head.

It's a good idea in principle but it's rarely executed well.

Originally posted by jaden101
The problem is in the name...It means many cultures...And that's exactly what we've ended up with...Lots of different cultures existing separately within small geographical areas. The initial idea was to mix the cultures but each culture effectively make their own ghettos. In some places it has led to very large problems....Paris, Bradford and Oldham being 3 examples I can think of off the top of my head.

It's a good idea in principle but it's rarely executed well.

Yeah, that's why the US calls itself the "tossed salad" now, instead of the melting pot..

Kind of ironic, tearing down discriminatory "separate but equal" policy, and then segregating themselves anyways, up to and including demanding their own separate facilities/schools.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
50:50 in germany

Got obvious issues, but working pretty okay really, I agree.

Originally posted by jaden101
The problem is in the name...It means many cultures...And that's exactly what we've ended up with...Lots of different cultures existing separately within small geographical areas. The initial idea was to mix the cultures but each culture effectively make their own ghettos. In some places it has led to very large problems....Paris, Bradford and Oldham being 3 examples I can think of off the top of my head.

It's a good idea in principle but it's rarely executed well.

Well, I couldn't have said it better myself.

It works relatively well here in the UK, there are obviously the cultural divisions but that is to be expected. Britain's most popular dish is a Tikka Masala... and I for one love a curry, so it can't be all bad. People are generally tolerent here now... and it seems to be ever improving.


There is also something amazing about taking the bus from Crofton Road (where my sister lives) through Peckham to Central London.

I love London, despite the impossibility of getting to work in the morning due to severe overcrowding in the tube and the tourists who think it's appropriate to go visit London at 8am in the morning during the rush hour making the already unbearable trip to work twice as worse.

I lived in Greenwhich, near Cutty Sark before I moved to Wandsworth. London is one of those places where people are truly from all over the place living together and loving the place where they're at. Sure, there are still ghettos around London, but overall to me, it is the best city in the world and super diverse.

<3 London.

Multiculturalism is an inherent failure. Unity strengthens us. By dividing us along cultural lines, multiculturalism weakens our nation. Give me a melting pot over a salad bowl any day.

Oh, and Muslims overtaking Europe. That's another problem.

I do plan to move to London in the next couple of years. I kind of miss living in England and a change of scenery is always nice.

Where do you live in Scotland?

Originally posted by majid86
Where do you live in Scotland? Aberdeen Originally posted by lil bitchiness
If you like big cities you'll love living in London.....

People at Victoria Station Starbucks, Cutty Sark station Starbucks and High Street Kensington Starbucks (across the road from small Tescos) all knew me by name! Even in a place like London you can be ''local'' to places.

You people are all making me so homesick. cry I do like big cities although I've never lived in one before... Which is one reason why I'd like to, if only for the experience. You move to Canada for work? Or did you just fancy it?

Ive been to Scotland but ive never been to Aberdeen.
London, Manchester, Edinburgh, Leeds & Liverpool are probably my top 5 favourite cities in the UK.
Glasgow is probably my least favourite UK city.

You might wanna check them out.

Originally posted by majid86
Ive been to Scotland but ive never been to Aberdeen.
London, Manchester, Edinburgh, Leeds & Liverpool are probably my top 5 favourite cities in the UK.
Glasgow is probably my least favourite UK city.

You might wanna check them out. I've been to them all before.

I actually really liked Glasgow, it's city centre is actually really nice. Has some of the roughest areas granted... but then again so does Manchester.

Newcastle will probably remain my favourite city in these fair isles.

Newcastle was cool & i kinda find the Geordie accent hilarious same can be said about Bristol.

I live in London too and adore it. I moved from a tiny village in Devon and had only visited London twice before I moved. I've since lived in Holloway, Kentish Town and now Angel.

Multiculturalism is one of the best things about London. I love being able to sample the foods and culture of people from a diverse range of countries. Obviously it has its downsides - but a lot of that is due to the people who are unwilling to accept it and see it as a decline of "British culture" (whatever that may be).

us has the best success rate

Ireland had a rocky start, but seems to be coming along nicely...

Does Ireland actually have any ethnic minorities?

I'll check it out and im pretty sure they are tiny.

Originally posted by majid86
Does Ireland actually have any ethnic minorities?

I'll check it out and im pretty sure they are tiny.

It has tons. Brazil, several African countries, several asian countries etc.

Originally posted by -Pr-
It has tons. Brazil, several African countries, several asian countries etc.

OK
But can they actually become Irish citizens?
And what about Irish citizens who were born & raised in Ireland but have parents who were immigrants?

Originally posted by majid86
OK
But can they actually become Irish citizens?
And what about Irish citizens who were born & raised in Ireland but have parents who were immigrants?

Of course they can.
It's steadily growing. We're starting to see a lot of kids in school who might have been born in ireland when their parents weren't. Integration in ireland is at an all time high.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Of course they can.
It's steadily growing. We're starting to see a lot of kids in school who might have been born in ireland when their parents weren't. Integration in ireland is at an all time high.

Ive never been to Ireland and i would like to travel there but im never going to Northern Ireland.
Ive heard some horrible stories on the news about how ethnic minorites & foreigners are being treated over there.
Belfast is probably the only major UK that i haven't been to & i dont want to go there ever in my life unless thing improve.

Originally posted by majid86
Ive never been to Ireland and i would like to travel there but im never going to Northern Ireland.
Ive heard some horrible stories on the news about how ethnic minorites & foreigners are being treated over there.
Belfast is probably the only major UK that i haven't been to & i dont want to go there ever in my life unless thing improve.

Some parts of Northern Ireland are nice. Just not Belfast.

Belfast isn't Ireland, though. They are separate countries you know.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Some parts of Northern Ireland are nice. Just not Belfast.

Belfast isn't Ireland, though. They are separate countries you know.

Yes i do know that Ireland and Northern Ireland are separate countries its just they share the same island that's all.
Dublin seems like a great place to visit especially on St Patrick's Day, I do celebrate it with my friends even though i dont drink except on every single New Year's Eve for the past 4 years.

Originally posted by majid86
Yes i do know that Ireland and Northern Ireland are separate countries its just they share the same island that's all.
Dublin seems like a great place to visit especially on St Patrick's Day, I do celebrate it with my friends even though i dont drink except on every single New Year's Eve for the past 4 years.

Dublin on Saint Patricks Day isn't a good idea unless all you're planning to do is drink. It's basically an excuse for the entire country to take the weekend off.

Yes, i said weekend.

lol

So if St Patrick's Day was on a Tuesday then would take the rest of the week off.
Man the Irish are hilarious people.

Originally posted by majid86
lol

So if St Patrick's Day was on a Tuesday then would take the rest of the week off.
Man the Irish are hilarious people.



it doesn't happen on a tuesday anymore really. they tend to try and schedule it at weekends so that the economy won't suffer.

Originally posted by -Pr-


it doesn't happen on a tuesday anymore really. they tend to try and schedule it at weekends so that the economy won't suffer.

Are you for real?
That's the impact of St Patrick's Day to Ireland, man i never thought about it that deep.

I think Success they are doing quite good I mean not as good as we are but still I find nothing faiture about them at all.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I think Success they are doing quite good I mean not as good as we are but still I find nothing faiture about them at all.

Not as good as you, eh?

America I meant althrough things are pretty bad here too but I think we got it good compare to some countrys.

The way I see it the yanks deal with multiculturalism worse than a lot of countries. When one of the stereotypes of an American is "racist" there are obviously some questions as to it's complete success. The way America reacted when a black president was elected showed that it's still immature in regards to multiculturalism. As Obama's victory was seen as the biggest of deals. (and mostly because of his skin colour.)

I thought just the fact Obama became President shows its the least racist country in the world (far from perfect though).

Originally posted by the ninjak
Sydney, Australia I heard is the most multicultural city in the world apparently. And there is racism everywhere.

And although you meet your exceptions most foreigners just go into their own cultures and aren't even interested in communicating with us.

It's pretty much a failure here. But we'll see how it pans out.

I think my home of Toronto, Canada, is likely the most cosmopolitan in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto

Now I loved Sydney when I was there. I think I could live there.
Nonetheless, a Vietnamese maid at my hotel told me of the prejudice she sees and feels; asked me about Canada and if it was better. I said Canada is pretty chilled out about other cultures.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Although I agree, I'd say the hype was more about how he was built in the media - he had a kind of a rock star status, which was unusual for a politician.
What surprised me more is that all those that didn't agree with him were labelled 'racist'. Of course this is all true. However the media only really sell what poeple want to buy.

Originally posted by Deadline
I thought just the fact Obama became President shows its the least racist country in the world (far from perfect though).
Not at all. If say Diane Abbot won the Labour leadership and went on to be PM it woudn't be a big deal. Of course it woud be mentioned but not in the same way that Obama's was.

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm guessing we'll see Diane back on the politics show sofa with Portillo soon enough. I certainly wouldn't bet against it... Tweedle Dee has got it sown up.

Originally posted by roughrider
I think my home of Toronto, Canada, is likely the most cosmopolitan in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto

Now I loved Sydney when I was there. I think I could live there.
Nonetheless, a Vietnamese maid at my hotel told me of the prejudice she sees and feels; asked me about Canada and if it was better. I said Canada is pretty chilled out about other cultures.

I agree with this.
Toronto is one of my favourite cities in world because of its successful multiculturalism, i still prefer Vancouver though.

The major difference between North America and Europe on this is the tendency for European nations to enshrine parts of their culture in the constitution. France is the best example, essentially expecting its immagrents to adopt a "French" way of life. In fact, from a Canadian perspective, what passes for "multi-culturalism" in much of the world seems hardly like lip service. This isn't to say I don't appreciate how many other cultures there are in England, just that, from my EXTREMELY limited perspective, we are more welcoming of people's cultures.

I think this has lead to the failure of multiculturalism in Europe, so far as it can be said to have faild. Look, 70 years ago, Hitler was burning Jews and a pretty sizable population of Europe was cool with it (North America too). This sort of thing seems impossible today, and that can certainly be seen as a success of multiculturalism.

I think the problem, especially in Canada and North America now, is that people saw multiculturalism as an end point. Unfortunatly, this still causes divides between peoples groups, and lots of other crazy in-group/out-group things, but it is certainly a step up from what we had previously.

Multiculturalism makes Canada a great county IMO.
Multiculturalism in the UK is pretty much a success or failure depending on how you look at.

Come to think of it i wonder what the UK would be like if they were no ethnic minorities at all?
Would the UK be better off if it had a 100% all white population?

My grandparents moved here at only 18 years old back in the early 1940's from India & they loved it so much they decided to settle here. Sometimes i wonder if they had not but thankfully they did & im very greatfull they did because it was the right decision.

Originally posted by inimalist
The major difference between North America and Europe on this is the tendency for European nations to enshrine parts of their culture in the constitution. France is the best example, essentially expecting its immagrents to adopt a "French" way of life. In fact, from a Canadian perspective, what passes for "multi-culturalism" in much of the world seems hardly like lip service. This isn't to say I don't appreciate how many other cultures there are in England, just that, from my EXTREMELY limited perspective, we are more welcoming of people's cultures. We don't have a constitution in the UK (well, certainly not in the same way as a lot of countries), nor do we say that anyone who moves here must adopt a "british" way of life. So long as people don't break the law there really isn't an issue.

I can't say whether the Canadians are more accepting of other cultures than here because I simply don't know enough about Canada. The British have had their issues in the past, and naturally there are those idiots out who think that immigration is the devil, mostly due to the "dey tuk r jubz" mentality... but on the whole we're very tolerant of other's cultures. If Canada doesn't have the group of people who are against immigration and stuff then I guess you can say the are more accepting. However you;d also need to factor in the fact that Britain's population is far more dense than that of Canada.

You're correct about the French though.


I think the main problem is that of grouping all of western Europe together. Every country has their differences. Some European countries have dealt with multiculturalism better than others. This is mainly due IMO to every country in Europe having it's own diverse history.

When it comes down to it, "multiculturalism" is just a buzz word. It doesn't really mean much but makes people seem grounded and modern when they talk about it possitively.

The biggest problem in Canada hasn't been dealing with immigrants - for those who are interested, our biggest ethnic minority is the Chinese.

It's been dealing with the Aborigional Natives, and trying to slowly right hundreds of years of bad treatment (we were only a LITTLE better than the USA in dealings), with land claims & trying to give them an active role in society.

Originally posted by roughrider
The biggest problem in Canada hasn't been dealing with immigrants - for those who are interested, our biggest ethnic minority is the Chinese.

It's been dealing with the Aborigional Natives, and trying to slowly right hundreds of years of bad treatment (we were only a LITTLE better than the USA in dealings), with land claims & trying to give them an active role in society.

100% true

They are holding "truth and reconciliation" hearings over the residential schools issue in Winnipeg, they started in August, I might check them out.

Its easy to be cynical here, but man I'd love for some positive to come from it

Originally posted by inimalist
The major difference between North America and Europe on this is the tendency for European nations to enshrine parts of their culture in the constitution. France is the best example, essentially expecting its immagrents to adopt a "French" way of life. In fact, from a Canadian perspective, what passes for "multi-culturalism" in much of the world seems hardly like lip service. This isn't to say I don't appreciate how many other cultures there are in England, just that, from my EXTREMELY limited perspective, we are more welcoming of people's cultures.

I think this has lead to the failure of multiculturalism in Europe, so far as it can be said to have faild. Look, 70 years ago, Hitler was burning Jews and a pretty sizable population of Europe was cool with it (North America too). This sort of thing seems impossible today, and that can certainly be seen as a success of multiculturalism.

I think the problem, especially in Canada and North America now, is that people saw multiculturalism as an end point. Unfortunatly, this still causes divides between peoples groups, and lots of other crazy in-group/out-group things, but it is certainly a step up from what we had previously.

French have every right to expect immigrants to adopt French way of life. Unlike Canada, that was built on immigration, France is a much older nation with it's own traditions and history which they do not necessarily just want to give up.

North America and Europe cannot be compared in such ways - North America was born out if immigration and very recently.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
French have every right to expect immigrants to adopt French way of life. Unlike Canada, that was built on immigration, France is a much older nation with it's own traditions and history which they do not necessarily just want to give up.

North America and Europe cannot be compared in such ways - North America was born out if immigration and very recently.

I'm not debating any of that, or trying to say the French shouldn't have the stance that they do

I think the position is dumb and North America is demonstrably better because of its openness to other cultures, but certainly there is a longwinded explanation of why various nations have the views they do.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
French have every right to expect immigrants to adopt French way of life. Unlike Canada, that was built on immigration, France is a much older nation with it's own traditions and history which they do not necessarily just want to give up.

North America and Europe cannot be compared in such ways - North America was born out if immigration and very recently.

Yep that's all correct same can be said about the UK as well.

Originally posted by inimalist
There are legal and tax benefits for people promoting minority culture in Canada, it helps immigration if you have "cultural" points, etc. It is an actual governmental policy to encourage other cultures in Canada.

Though, I can't say how different it is, in practice, from Britain. Our leader recently caused waves by saying a group of refugee Sri Lankans would be sent home for entering canada illegally, but such a measure is nearly unheard of by Canadian immigration, and his sentiments were unpopular.



yes, but the past 70 years have seen not only the diversity within cultures expand, but the tolorance and appreciation of such diversity, to a point where it is essentially unheard of in human history... I actually can't think of another time when people of all races, religions, creeds, etc, have been encouraged, legitimately, to come and gather together for the common good of society.

There are problems, but to say this is just "another type of cultural definition" is to ignore clear social trends that arose... well, at the very least in the post WW2 period My point it that in the grand scheme of things attaching a label to it simply isn't necessary. Different cultures combining "for the common good of society" isn't an active process, or at least it shouldn't be... people aren't emigrating for that reason. People are moving for the sole reason of finding a better life for themselves, it's not to better society.

By saying "multiculturalism" is simply a buzz word isn't ignoring the fact that countries are diversifying, it's simply ignoring it's importance. Society may very well benefit from a larger diversity, but no one deserves a pat on the back for this. It's just the natural progression of a world made ever smaller by technology.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
French have every right to expect immigrants to adopt French way of life. Unlike Canada, that was built on immigration, France is a much older nation with it's own traditions and history which they do not necessarily just want to give up.

North America and Europe cannot be compared in such ways - North America was born out if immigration and very recently.
This is a very valid point. The French actually have a culture to lose. It makes sense for them to want to protect it.

North American countries simply don't have a culture, certainly not in the same way any European country has... they are far too young.

This video is quite interesting, it does explain alot about multiculturalism regarding the British Asian community:

j7HaHJQqq1Y

I pretty much agree with it all said but i LOL'd at the Asian girl with blonde hair & blue eyes?! WTF is all that about?

I gotta find out who she is?

I don't think anyone should be necessarily afraid of losing their culture, at most they develop, as they have for years, perhaps more rapidly now mixing with others, but even that has happened in the past.

The view lil b was talking about seems a bit like, yeah, culture's that thing of the past, and we are at the end point now and have to preserve it...which I don't think applies.

Also denying younger countries their culture cause it doesn't date as far back (which may not even be true, unless you somehow decide that culture is a localized thing and once you move you lose it) seems also very arrogant, and is a view that I have heard a couple of times, usually from Europeans.

The US may have only started really developing its separate culture in the last 400 years or so, but it already came with a lot of culture from other places and that working together forged a new and vast culture very fast as well.

Originally posted by inimalist


I think this has lead to the failure of multiculturalism in Europe, so far as it can be said to have faild. Look, 70 years ago, Hitler was burning Jews and a pretty sizable population of Europe was cool with it (North America too). This sort of thing seems impossible today, and that can certainly be seen as a success of multiculturalism.



I have to quite strongly disagree with this sentiment. You only have to look at several recent examples, one of which was in Europe, in how attitudes to and reactions to ethnic cleansing hasn't exactly been any better in modern times than in the 1930's and 40's.

Former Yugoslavia

DR of Congo...Death toll of 5.4 million in 5 years...The most deadly war since WW2.

Rwanda (a million people in 100 days meant a greater number of dead per day than the Nazis managed at the height of the final solution) I still remember the video below and how utterly despicable that woman seemed at the time...I now realise she was the scapegoat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VWJQIn91hc&feature=related

Sudan/Darfur

Reaction to those was either extremely slow or non existent by either Europe or North America.

It did fine in Brasil. So fine there is no actual multi-culturalism, not like it is understood in most other countries. Melting pot really did melt distinct cultural identities away. People mostly refer to their ethnic backgrounds as nothing more than curiosities, if they are aware of them at all, and the overhelming majority - including the most recent migration waves of the 20th century - are sanguinelly miscigenated as well.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't think anyone should be necessarily afraid of losing their culture, at most they develop, as they have for years, perhaps more rapidly now mixing with others, but even that has happened in the past.

The view lil b was talking about seems a bit like, yeah, culture's that thing of the past, and we are at the end point now and have to preserve it...which I don't think applies.

Also denying younger countries their culture cause it doesn't date as far back (which may not even be true, unless you somehow decide that culture is a localized thing and once you move you lose it) seems also very arrogant, and is a view that I have heard a couple of times, usually from Europeans.

The US may have only started really developing its separate culture in the last 400 years or so, but it already came with a lot of culture from other places and that working together forged a new and vast culture very fast as well.

There is a difference between culture evolving and culture forcibly changing in the name of accommodating something that isn't French and hasn't ever been French.
For many people, culture is identity and there is no logical reason why France is to become anything other than France.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
There is a difference between culture evolving and culture forcibly changing in the name of accommodating something that isn't French and hasn't ever been French.
For many people, culture is identity and there is no logical reason why France is to become anything other than France. What is 'being france' exactly?

Originally posted by 753
What is 'being france' exactly?

Explaining France's culture in 3 sentences in impossible. If you don't know what France is, maybe you should go there and find out.

Originally posted by 753
What is 'being france' exactly?

Chain smoking...Women with hairy arm pits...extremely bad traffic controls....You'd think people from Muslim countries would fit right in with that description wouldn't you?

The difference?...France has awesome trains.

And Virginie Ledoyen.

Ive been to France & I enjoyed it but since i couldn't speak French i had to speak in slow English to communicate with the locals in Paris & alot French people get very angry when you dont speak French to them.

Multiculturalism is pretty much a failure in France & i dont see any improvements happening in the near future.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Explaining France's culture in 3 sentences in impossible. If you don't know what France is, maybe you should go there and find out.

I have, it looked pretty muslim to me.

Originally posted by 753
I have, it looked pretty muslim to me.

Muslim? How so?
Where exactly did you go? Marseilles?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Muslim? How so?
Where exactly did you go? Marseilles? I'm just kidding, I've only been to paris, muslim culture didnt seem prevalent at all.

I just don't get this opposition to islam on an ethnic identity basis. It's one thing to defend some political ideals that shape the french state and may eventually conflict with muslim practices, like secularism, but opponents of islam in france - from what I've seen of them - seem more concerned with a quasi-volkisch idea of a 'true french' people with a crystalized native culture that is being disfigured by the very presence of 'foreigners' (even when they were born in france). This is what doesn't seem very french to me. In fact, it seems more german arround the 1930s.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
There is a difference between culture evolving and culture forcibly changing in the name of accommodating something that isn't French and hasn't ever been French.
For many people, culture is identity and there is no logical reason why France is to become anything other than France.

There is reason though, because new people with different cultures live there. Cultures have forcibly changed in the past, German, French, English culture, are all based on forcibly change as well as independent evolution. Just because there is a way considered French culture now doesn't mean that that shouldn't ever change, nor does it mean that people with a different culture should not be free to live out theirs either, even if they don't live in the location mostly associated with that culture anymore.

Of course that's mostly a philosophical point, I suppose France can implement some rules to preserve their culture...however perhaps they shouldn't do it in a way that leads to the ostrazication of certain groups. Perhaps they should consider what is reasonable and moral to ask someone in return for citizenship or living rights.

They do have the power over their place, de facto, they should just realize that it doesn't make them special.

Originally posted by 753
I'm just kidding, I've only been to paris, muslim culture didnt seem prevalent at all.

I just don't get this opposition to islam on an ethnic identity basis. It's one thing to defend some political ideals that shape the french state and may eventually conflict with muslim practices, like secularism, but opponents of islam in france - from what I've seen of them - seem more concerned with a quasi-volkisch idea of a 'true french' people with a crystalized native culture that is being disfigured by the very presence of 'foreigners' (even when they were born in france). This is what doesn't seem very french to me. In fact, it seems more german arround the 1930s.

That is true, heck a lot of French people don't consider their Football team french because the team is full of players who are second generation French and well the team is comprised of non-white players.