Savage Hulk vs Brainiac 8 & Brianiac

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King Castle
ko, kill. you all know the rules. nuff said, lets get it on!!

chomperx9
what are the rules ?

Lunacyde
Do the Brainiacs have prep?

Stoic
Originally posted by Lunacyde
Do the Brainiacs have prep?


Hey, it's two on one.

Q99
The Brainiacs should take it. B1 is easily physically powerful enough to take on Kal one-on-one, and while B8 never really fought herald levelers, she did take, in order: Grace, Shift (the Metamorpho clone), Jade, Thunder, and Starfire, all with little effort. In the end the only reason she was taken down was 'Indigo' temporarily gained control to give them a chance.

King Castle
Originally posted by Lunacyde
Do the Brainiacs have prep? no.

Q99
They don't really need prep, they're pretty good at coming up with countermeasures on the fly.

Lord_Talron
if braniac can take on supes i really dont see the need for 8 here at all

King Castle
anyone care to share where brainiac can fight supes on equal ground?

just b/c one villain fights a hero doesnt make them physically equal nor in power

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
anyone care to share where brainiac can fight supes on equal ground?

just b/c one villain fights a hero doesnt make them physically equal nor in power

The Superman: Brainiac TBP had them physically confront each other and iirc Superman did not have an easy time of it, B1 was at *least* as powerful as him if not better.

Brainiac's cyborg body is surprisingly badass.


This is, btw, a downgrade from his really early appearances, where he pretty much yawned through Superman's attacks.

There are lesser versions of Brainiac post-crisis, like the human with mind-control powers, but those are basically probes of the true Brainiac and not the real deal.


B8 hasn't shown as much physical strength, but has shown greater versatility in her built-in capabilities, with powerful forcefields, rapid self-repair, high-level sonics, and so on.

King Castle
modern brainiac. i am aware of his old versions and how powerful he once was.

i am talkin about modern brainiac feats.

the way hulk is written now he isnt a light weight either..

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
modern brainiac. i am aware of his old versions and how powerful he once was.

i am talkin about modern brainiac feats.

The Superman: Brainiac TPB that had them duking it out physically was from the last two years I think. Super-recent.

King Castle
and you see that as being the deciding factor why he beat hulk?

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
and you see that as being the deciding factor why he beat hulk?

Being equal or stronger than Superman plus having powerful backup isn't enough?

King Castle
only in strength... i dont see brainiac having the speed to content with an unrestrained supes.

hulk is more vicious then supes as well... and also keeps getting stronger.

what standard powers does brainiac have that can make a difference?

energy blast? havent seen the modern brainiac employ shields or anything fancy in battle without prep.

Prep-Man
Brainiac.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
only in strength... i dont see brainiac having the speed to content with an unrestrained supes.

Uh, on what basis are you judging this? He almost certainly has at least highly enhanced reflexes.





B8 does. She does stuff like puts forcefields around people's heads.

King Castle
yes enhanced but not high enough to seriously outfight supes without help PIS and massive CIS.

his reflex wont make a big difference when facing hulk.


Hulk can go hours without breathing holding his breath.

Prep-Man
Brainiac totally dominiated Superman in strength, though. Superman didn't see it coming.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
yes enhanced but not high enough to seriously outfight supes without help PIS and massive CIS.

Again, where are you getting that? You haven't read the fight and don't know his capabilities.

His latest, and officially 'true' body fought Superman once and dominated most of it. Brainiac was simply written stronger, and through the rather logical method of a 12th level intellect constructing itself the most powerful body available.





She has other powers. High-power blasts? Force fields to defend her ancestor while he attacks? High strength herself? (and enough self-repair to come back in short order even if her arms are ripped off) All will aid in the beat down.

Or her analytical abilities- I wonder how long it'd take her to figure out how to do something with his gamma radiation considering she was able to figure out how to cancel GL energy.

King Castle
faulty logic to assume b/c he has punched and smacked around superman he has high end reflexes in the superhuman or ftl...

he does....not...

she canceled a GL construct through pure high frequency for it to lose cohesion not remotely similar to how it would work on a gamma spawn and his energy.

many ppl have used sound waves to deconstruct constructs or impair their ability to concentrate.

neither really work on the hulk.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
faulty logic to assume b/c he has punched and smacked around superman he has high end reflexes in the superhuman or ftl...

he does....not...

Again, how would you know whether he does or not? You seem to simply be assuming he doesn't.




She does have good sensors and energy manipulation.

It might take too long to come up with a countermeasure, but really, simply blasting in concert with B1 should be more than enough to win this.

King Castle
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/12780/503709-action_comics__020_super.jpg

i dont take this as a sign of superhuman speed for either...

problem with DC is that superman is up and down and everyone is fast to use him as a measuring stick disregarding that he is not fighting at his best.

its the same faulty logic w/ idiots start to scream about grodd having high end superhuman reflexes to compete with the flash and can take imp punches b/c he took one lazy hit from flash.. every hard on fan assumes flash every flash punch and speed is at his best.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle

i dont take this as a sign of superhuman speed for either...

I'm not saying what he has one way or another. I'm just pointing out you don't seem to have any basis for calling PIS on the subject.



He did, however, appear to be hitting at full strength, so we have Brainiac's physical strength and toughness at the least.

King Castle
Brainiac is strong/tough no doubt about that.

i just dont like the poor argument of he fights superman hence he wins.

supesso do a lot of nobodies who are nothing but low end bricks of 5o tonners or so and in one story they punch and are beating superman and suddenly ppl come in well he fights supes, so he wins. he must be a world shaker at the least.33

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
Brainiac is strong/tough no doubt about that.

i just dont like the poor argument of he fights superman hence he wins.

He fights Superman by trading blows therefore he is strong and tough. That's not a poor argument, that's very strait forward.


You don't seen to be providing any information on why he should be considered weak.



I'm hard pressed to think of any villain that gave Superman as hard a fight as Brainiac did and then turned out to be a low-end brick.

King Castle
i am not saying brainiac is weak... but is his strength and brainiac 8 be enough to get him a win against a guy to constantly amps?

i dont even see brainiac being a factor at all. nothing she can really do to her hulk..

Hulk has fought Thor and various high end bricks as well and has done remarkably well beating them or stalemating them.

not sure if the current hulk will be taken down.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
i am not saying brainiac is weak... but is his strength and brainiac 8 be enough to get him a win against a guy to constantly amps?


Yes?



She trashed a series of high-metas in a row casually, she's Herald level easily. At one point B8 was fighting two teams (Titans and Outsiders) solo.




And now he's fighting someone who appears to be a high end brick supported by a herald-level blaster/forcefielder working together.

Prep-Man
Why did you put B8 in when you know she wouldn't harm the Hulk?? sad

Q99
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Why did you put B8 in when you know she wouldn't harm the Hulk?? sad

That is a good question.

I mean, she can harm the Hulk. She's a class 100+ with strong energy abilities as well as alternate attacks like sonics. But if the op-maker doesn't think she'll do anything it's odd.

Prep-Man
KC is an odd poster.

Lunacyde
The Brainiacs....this is just silly.

Someone who constantly amps? Please, even after amping all fight in his showings I've never seen anything remotely conclusive that he should be able to take both of these at once. Not only are they physically at least a match together, but they have a far wider range of abilities, and ohh yeah they're a hell of a lot smarter. Constatly amping? How about 2 opponents who are constantly thinking of the most efficient way to put you donw, who have the sensors and gear at their disposal to do it.

King Castle
but you need to show what they can up with on the spot.. you cant say they will come up with something so they win.

it dont work that way it doesnt work for DD and dont work for the brainiacs.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
but you need to show what they can up with on the spot.. you cant say they will come up with something so they win.

it dont work that way it doesnt work for DD and dont work for the brainiacs.


How about "they come up with the idea of pounding him really hard while blasting?"

'Cause you got two strength 100+ types here, Brainiac more-so, and basically a heck of a lot of power to go around.


You gave the B side more raw power from the beginning.

King Castle
i dont see brainiac 8 being a 100 tonner.. even if she is she be extremely low end to make any real difference.

Stoic
The Savage Hulk is too dumb to win more than 2/10 against a team smart enough to teleport him to a hellish like dimension. He loses they win.

King Castle
Originally posted by Stoic
The Savage Hulk is too dumb to win more than 2/10 against a team smart enough to teleport him to a hellish like dimension. He loses they win. isnt the current hulk pretty smart with banner in charge?

anyways.. have they teleported anyone to a hellish dimension without outside tech?

Stoic
Originally posted by King Castle
isnt the current hulk pretty smart with banner in charge?

anyways.. have they teleported anyone to a hellish dimension without outside tech?


plink plink, I don't know bro confused eek! laughing out loud . However there are many other things that their smarts could whip up to win this fight. In a pure slug it out dummy fight he would win, but in a tactical battle he get's spanked.

The current Hulk isn't being discussed here, so I can't really comment.

King Castle
Hulk is Hulk..

which hulk is this?
http://www.imagebam.com/image/8214b693821811

anyways what can they whip up in mid battle to win? feats pls.

Stoic
Originally posted by King Castle
Hulk is Hulk..

which hulk is this?
http://www.imagebam.com/image/8214b693821811

anyways what can they whip up in mid battle to win? feats pls.


I knew you were going to do that.

stick out tongue

King Castle
he seems pretty savage to me.. stick out tongue

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
i dont see brainiac 8 being a 100 tonner.. even if she is she be extremely low end to make any real difference.

Even though she was pretty easily beating down groups of low-100 tonners?

One-shotting Grace Choi and Thunder, strangling Starfire, easily overpowering Wonder Girl... she was clearly in a higher league than them, taking most down with a single blow. B8 did grow her arm bigger to do that, but in terms of physical power she's got much.

King Castle
i'm sorry but, i think i have made up my mind they aint winning a physical fight.

and grace, thunder have no real strength feats to assume they are 100 tonners never seen them lift anything in that weight range not even firestar...

wondergirl was also significantly weaker then and pretty sure brainiac 8 didnt confront her at all. WG was busy with connor and getting blasted by rockets from luthor.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Q99
Even though she was pretty easily beating down groups of low-100 tonners?

One-shotting Grace Choi and Thunder, strangling Starfire, easily overpowering Wonder Girl... she was clearly in a higher league than them, taking most down with a single blow. B8 did grow her arm bigger to do that, but in terms of physical power she's got much.

Yeah, the B's are beasts. Even in the New Krypton arc, Braniac says his strength and speed have enhanced.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by King Castle
i'm sorry but, i think i have made up my mind they aint winning a physical fight.

Yes and this is the crux of the issue. You made this thread utterly certain that Hulk would win, probably even stomp.

Some would call that a spite thread, even though in practical terms it really isn't.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
i'm sorry but, i think i gave made up my mind they aint winning a physical fight.

Yea, we noticed you seemed to pre-decide this without evidence to back it up.



Starfire is stronger than pre-res Donna Troy, Grace was able to cause damage to Sabbac, a Captain Marvel foe. Thunder might not be, but her physical durability is up there, and she can still deliver plenty of damage with her 'land on someone while greatly multiplying her mass'.

Then there's her one-shotting Metamorpho/shift with a single energy blast.


Anyway, multiple high meta types, all dealt with casually.




Brainiac 8 held her by the throat for like 3-4 pages and it looked like she choked her out near the end.

And Wonder Girl at the time was Ares-powered and quite strong. Not quite as strong as self-demigod powered, but still pretty darn powerful at that point.

King Castle
you seem to forget how savage hulk has dealt with teams.. he has similar solo fight moments just as impressive if not more so..

with the likes of herc, samson, wonderman, Giant man.. etc etc..

now these guys are were established in their strength by feats and bio's.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
you seem to forget how savage hulk has dealt with teams.. he has similar solo fight moments just as impressive if not more so..

And you have him fighting against two very powerful foes. We aren't forgetting, he's simply still at a disadvantage.

King Castle
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yes and this is the crux of the issue. You made this thread utterly certain that Hulk would win, probably even stomp.

Some would call that a spite thread, even though in practical terms it really isn't. actually i made this thinking the team wins.. i just didnt like the argument for them which made me question why ppl are giving them wins with faulty AB logic.

now i am curious why ppl are giving DD the win against the same foe..

i am simply tryin to understand what gives them the win.. what fighting skills h2h or powers have they shown tha they can use on hulk

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
actually i made this thinking the team wins.. i just didnt like the argument for them which made me question why ppl are giving them wins with faulty AB logic.

Your reasoning has not been made clear to the rest of us. You've taken examples of these two doing impressive stuff and therefore downgraded your ratings of them?



DD's way more powerful than Hulk.




Ok, first, you take someone at least as physically strong if not stronger than Superman.

Then, you throw in herald-level backup with strong energy abilities and again class 100+ strength, though not quite as much...

and that beats the Hulk.


If this was World War Hulk, it might be another matter. Not Savage Hulk though.

King Castle
not exactly the same as DD and his solo beat down of three herald guys.. but, he isnt exactly too far behind either..

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6556637

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Q99
And you have him fighting against two very powerful foes. We aren't forgetting, he's simply still at a disadvantage.

didnt she tkae on the entire team by herself?

King Castle
no.

she cheap shotted some of them when she turned and left..

Q99
Originally posted by Prep-Man
didnt she tkae on the entire team by herself?

Yes.




She took them on one at a time, but most of them took her on face to face and got attacks in. Thunder landed on her, Jade hit her with a construct, Starfire blasted a hand off, Shift tried to restrain her, you get the idea.


Then at one point she was facing the entire Outsiders and Teen Titans and taking a pounding, them used a sonic attack that stopped all of them but Shift.

Lunacyde
King Castle you are ignoring the fundamental rule of debating. You came into this match with a clear winner in your mind and no amount of logic or fact will change it, despite what you seem to be preaching to us. i don't buy it, you have a LONG history on more than one site of making such threads. Please be open to peoples arguments instead of sticking your thumbs in your ears and sticking your tongue out on them.

King Castle
i came here giving the probable win to the team... try again.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
i came here giving the probable win to the team... try again.

And yet you seem to have just up and decided to switch sides without much reason?

I just looked through the Brainiac vs Superman story again. Superman punched him, Vril stopped his fist cold and squeezed until it *bled*. And earlier, he squeezed Kal's head until it bled.

Brainiac was by most appearances stronger in raw physical power than Kal-el of Krypton.


And Brainiac 8 ripped through mid and high metas, some nearing low-herald, like they were candy.


That's a significant amount of power on both their parts, and you've apparently downgraded both of them in your head based on their ability to overmuscle Superman and slap around teams, to the point that even two-on-one you don't think they'll win. It is hard to figure out.

King Castle
actually, i changed my mind with ppl's argument and reasoning.

it isnt like i really care if hulk or the team wins.. what i want is legit explanations substantiated by panel feats.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
actually, i changed my mind with ppl's argument and reasoning.

In the opposite direction of the feats and arguments? Sorry, you need to give us more than that.


You started out surprised that Brainiac could fight Superman 1 on 1. Now you were told he can, therefore you went from "Weaker-than-Supes Brainy wins," to "Equal/Stronger-than-Supes Brainy loses,"?



What part of "Kryptonian+ strength and Teambuster with versatility beats Hulk," is, specifically, giving you trouble? That's what the on-panel feats tell us they can do.

Brainiac vs Hulk on it's own would be an excellent fight on the physical level. B+B8 means they flat out outpower him and will beat on him until he drops.



You say you changed your mind, but your arguments have been all on the same side from the start, and mostly in downplaying the Brainiacs as much as possible.

They win because they're stronger, that's it plain and simple.

King Castle
i am not saying brainiac doesnt have the strength or Durability which is why i put him in this fight.

but, lets look at it like this:

how many times has hulk manhandled, herc, thor and guys like gladiator?

he isnt low end either plus his rage is something that make him more brutal especially in his savage mode.

is Hulk manhandling teams and various bricks as well not enough he has manhandled brick teams as well.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
i am not saying brainiac doesnt have the strength or Durability which is why i put him in this fight.

but, lets look at it like this:

how many times has hulk manhandled, herc, thor and guys like gladiator?


How many times has he actually taken them out when they're fighting for real, though? Not many, and it's usually close, and that's when they fight solo.

Throw in high-end backup. That turns it from "Good fight," to "Brainiacs win."


If this was Brainiac vs Hulk you'd have an argument there. This is Brainiac 8 and Brainiac vs Hulk. Hulk loses.




Note he throws them around a lot, but that scan you posted of him tossing Namor and Surfer almost certainly did not end in their defeat, unless they were super-off guard.

And again, you seem to be leaving out the two vs one element entirely. Hulk's herald level. He's facing two herald levels and he does not have a significant strength edge against even one of them. He loses.

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