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I see a lot people say that ROS Anakin was not in a good state of mind to fight Kenobi. Thus by that premise of people, they draw the conclusion that Kenobi couldn't have beat a Anakin in the right state of mind.. My issue is this... He knew he didn't kill his love.. He said very clearly he felt her alive when he released her. So it wasn't like he knew she was dead. Yes he had turned to the DS not that long before but he had already started down that path and I didn't see any narration that indicates he was debating about which side he wanted to be on. He committed himself to the darkside already. If he could kill Mace.. Kill young jedi's do you really think he was THAT torn about killing Kenobi? Even if I concede he was a little, certainly not enough to warrant this Anakin was mind f'd theory people keep talking about. He felt OB1 turned his love against him.. he had reason to get rid of him. He had NO issue getting rid of kids who did nothing to him. So please explain to me where i'm wrong here and how it's such a big mind f for Anakin that he could only fight in a horrible manner?

Lets look at the fight... General G is considered a very proficient duelist and has done VERY WELL against some acclaimed Jedi. He certainly has a higher per strike ratio than Anakin. Yet, OB1 methodically used his defense to find opening and cut arm after arm from The General. He beat him MUCH MUCH quicker than Anakin. Anakin he couldn't find such openings.. the fight went on HOW LONG? If he beat Anakin quickly.. sure we could say Anakin wasn't right.. However, that wasn't the case Anakin fought well and made Ob1 work very very hard. for the win. I saw no evidence that his skills were diminished in anyway.

To go further and build on my first paragraph. If anybody was more conflicted it was Kenobi more so than Anakin. Kenobi didn't have the rage blinding him like Anakin did. He would have more reservations about killing Anakin than Anakin would have about killing kenobi for all the reasons listed above. So if anything Kenobi was more conflicted. Yet I keep seeing this imo unsubstantiated myth that Anakin was a total wreck and that is the reason why Kenobi won. Kenobi won because he was better that day. He knew Anakin in a out. He used Anakin over confidence against him. He didn't BEAT him cause Anakin's mind was a mess. If you believe this is the reason why he beat Anakin please address the points made above. If not, lets disspell this notion that Kenobi only won because Anakin was a mess.

Actually I have argued many many times, and won each time that Kenobi would always beat Anakin.

The ROTS novelization makes this clear. So the premise of your post up there is wrong. Or in other words, we agree, and I have already fought and won that battle on these here boards.

Well not really TrueJedi... as I've seen many people still talk about how the only reason Kenobi won was because Anakin was a mental mess. I've seen this countless times. So, I'm not sure your victory is as decisive as you claim.

There is the fact that
A)Kenobi trained Anakin, and knew him, almost literally, inside and out. He knew his style, his slight adjustments for his own body, his aplications of the force, etc. Kenoi knew exactly what Anakin was capable of, he knew that if he didnt kill him, he would die.

Anakin was more powerful. He would've become more powerful as he is the chosen one and all that crap. But Obi-Wan is the more intelligent of the two. I still think that Obi-Wan would lose in a closed room though.

As Lucas said: "Anakin is more powerful, but Obi-Wan is more experienced."

Vader just had his wife turn against him, and was now committing himself to killing what he thought was his best friend. That after massacring the Separatist leaders, Jedi children, Jedi in general, and turning his back on his entire life. That tear he shed following the Mustafar slaughter was supposed to give the audience the hint that the guy's an emotional basket-case, not someone reveling in the Dark Side and is calm and cool and in control of himself.

Obi-Wan's defensive style and familiarity would stop Anakin's Djem So any day of the week. It's Anakin brute strength, endless Force reserves, and his ability to get stronger as the fight wear on that would give him the win... after a very, very long battle. And by the, Kenobi would have figured out a way to outsmart him.

If it were the "Zone" Anakin that did in Dooku, then Kenobi's prospects take a terminal dip.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien


If it were the "Zone" Anakin that did in Dooku, then Kenobi's prospects take a terminal dip.

What in the "Zone" anakin? The one that beat a Dooku who spent an entire duel preparing himself to lose with dignity?

Originally posted by truejedi
What in the "Zone" anakin? The one that beat a Dooku who spent an entire duel preparing himself to lose with dignity? No, the one who doesn't let emotions make him unstable. The one who's determined to win with losing not even being an option. Dooku's original intentions were to kill Kenobi and lose to Skywalker, and he toyed with time until he realized they were f*cking with him. He decided "it was time to kill" long before he was beaten. In efforts to keep from dieing, exhaustion overtook him. Someone's who in control and getting ready to lose doesn't get reduced to such a point. He even concedes that "these clowns" just might beat him. Dooku threw no fight, and he gave it all he could to the point of "exhaustion".

Anakin's whole "Oh I get it now" moment was lacking in his fight with Kenobi. "Dooku's decades of combat are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay useless." Oh how that does not describe the Mustafar duel... unless of course Kenobi>>>>Dooku.

Kenobi will always be smarter than Anakin, there's no getting around that. But the Vader who's gone through hell vs. the Anakin whose clarity of mind undid Dooku in seconds... one of them is a tad more able-minded than the other.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, the one who doesn't let emotions make him unstable. The one who's determined to win with losing not even being an option. Dooku's original intentions were to kill Kenobi and lose to Skywalker, and he toyed with time until he realized they were f*cking with him. He decided "it was time to kill" long before he was beaten. In efforts to keep from dieing, exhaustion overtook him. Someone's who in control and getting ready to lose doesn't get reduced to such a point. He even concedes that "these clowns" just might beat him. Dooku threw no fight, and he gave it all he could to the point of "exhaustion".

Anakin's whole "Oh I get it now" moment was lacking in his fight with Kenobi. "Dooku's decades of combat are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay useless." Oh how that does not describe the Mustafar duel... unless of course Kenobi>>>>Dooku.

Kenobi will always be smarter than Anakin, there's no getting around that. But the Vader who's gone through hell vs. the Anakin whose clarity of mind undid Dooku in seconds... one of them is a tad more able-minded than the other.


what, no. Dooku fought a 2 on 1 duel on the invisible hand, no matter HOW you cut it. We have no idea how Dooku would do against Anakin in a one-on-one situation, but we do know enough to suggest it wouldn't be a repeat of the latter part of the Invisible Hand duel. Here is why in 2 concise points:

Fatigue was a MAJOR factor in his fight with Anakin, which was caused by his two opponents, and his decision to play-act his defeat from the beginning. A dooku who went straight for a kill against Anakin is not going to be AS tired in his fight. Tired maybe, I won't speculate, but he isn't going to be AS tired as he was when he fought anakin alone after his play acting. Finally, there is a quote that states Dooku had hit rock bottom in the fatigue department before Kenobi was even removed from the fight.


His decision to let Anakin win was a MAJOR factor in the fight, since anakin kept getting stronger. If dooku had been going for the kill from the beginning against only Anakin it would have been a much different fight. Dooku had no intention of winning the fight until Sidious interjects into the fight, at a very late point. Before this Dooku was even goading anakin to the dark side as the fight progressed, and making him stronger. Something he wouldn't do if he wasnt trying to turn him.

Originally posted by truejedi
what, no. Dooku fought a 2 on 1 duel on the invisible hand, no matter HOW you cut it. We have no idea how Dooku would do against Anakin in a one-on-one situation, but we do know enough to suggest it wouldn't be a repeat of the latter part of the Invisible Hand duel. Here is why in 2 concise points:

Fatigue was a MAJOR factor in his fight with Anakin, which was caused by his two opponents, and his decision to play-act his defeat from the beginning. A dooku who went straight for a kill against Anakin is not going to be AS tired in his fight. Tired maybe, I won't speculate, but he isn't going to be AS tired as he was when he fought anakin alone after his play acting. Finally, there is a quote that states Dooku had hit rock bottom in the fatigue department before Kenobi was even removed from the fight.


His decision to let Anakin win was a MAJOR factor in the fight, since anakin kept getting stronger. If dooku had been going for the kill from the beginning against only Anakin it would have been a much different fight. Dooku had no intention of winning the fight until Sidious interjects into the fight, at a very late point. Before this Dooku was even goading anakin to the dark side as the fight progressed, and making him stronger. Something he wouldn't do if he wasnt trying to turn him. Yes, I know all that. What I'm trying to stress to you is that personal mentality and emotional stability plays a big factor in Anakin's ability to fight. The guy's a yo-yo. He goes from Jedi average, to pissed off advantage, to restrained disadvantage, to Zone domination. I'll remind you that Anakin was also fighting that day, not just Dooku. Starfighter battle, journey through the ship, and then a fight with Dooku--of which he bounces up and down like a ball. The guy literally went through all those stages within several minutes: 2-on-1 advantage, 1-on-1 advantage, 1-on-1 disadvantage, 1-on-1 "nuclear" Zone ownage.

The man's emotionally fragile no matter where he goes or what he does. In those final blows against Dooku, he was clear as crystal but making full use of his fury. Vader was not, was absolutely not clear. Someone of Kenobi's experience and intellect easily took advantage. But couple Anakin's single-minded "Zone" determination to win and the power of the Dark Side AND his Juggernaut-esque momentum... and Kenobi's gonna lose any protracted battle on a level playing field.

"Anakin's mind is as clear as a crystal bell. In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win.|

I'd contrast that with the pre-battle confrontation between Anakin, Kenobi and Padme, but it's too long.

Lord Lucien... you would agree that GG is a very good swordsman correct? He has a strike ratio that even Anankin can't match. He's fared very well against better swordsman than Anakin.. In Mace to name one. Yet Kenobi was able to methodically take off arm after arm and defeat him in a much much quicker manner than he did Anakin. So, if GG is that skilled and Kenobi found openings throughout that battle but NEVER could against Anakin throughout there much longer battle.. how do you come to the conclusion that Anakin was messed up and not fighting very well? How do you bridge that gap comparing those battle. Anakin was fighting very well and wasn't weakening in the least. All the things that you felt made him strong... power reserves, strength etc etc.. those were diminished IN ANY WAY with his fight with Kenobi. Please address these points when looking at Kenobi against GG and Kenobi against Anakin

Furthermore, since you keep on saying Anakin mind was clear... please post for me the narration that says his mind was all over the place and this was effecting his skills. Please post the narration that talks about him not wanting to kill Kenobi. Problem is, these lines don't exist, as thus it's merely conjecture on people's part to give a reason why Anakin lost. There is no reason needed... Kenobi just knows how to beat any Anakin we've seen.

Again you bring up the Padme issue.. Going by narration.. HE KNEW she was alive when he let her go.. this had no effect on him. The ONLY effect it did have on him was making him wanting to kill Kenobi more, for feeling like he turned her against him. That fueled his rage and made him want to kill him, not hold back against Kenobi. You brinb up the acts he did and are then trying to claim it effected him ni his fight with Kenobi. He had already given himself over to the darkside.. his rage was in full effect... the doubts and hesitiation weren't there that you claim or please post the evidence. He just killed Mace..(no going back after that).. then goes on to kill innocent KIDS and more Jedi... (certainly no going back after that). Yet you feel like he was being pulled and had doubt and his mind was a mess and that is why he lost.. nah. By the time he fought Kenobi he had already choosen his path and had rage fueling him to kill kenobi.. not doubts. IF ANYBODY was MORE messed up and doubting things.. it was Kenobi not Anakin. So I could very easily say.. a messed up mind Kenobi still punked a raging Anakin who still had his rage, force reserves, incredible strength etc etc. A more conflicted Kenobi beat a less conflicted Anakin is how the fight should be viewed. I see NO evidence that the Anakin that fought Dooku would beat Kenobi.. The view that Anakin was messed up and thats why he lost is poop and nothing more.

I like to respond as I read posts, so I would kindly ask you to structure yours a little more... methodically. As it is, this one's gonna be headache, I can tell.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Lord Lucien... you would agree that GG is a very good swordsman correct? He has a strike ratio that even Anankin can't match. He's fared very well against better swordsman than Anakin.. In Mace to name one. Yet Kenobi was able to methodically take off arm after arm and defeat him in a much much quicker manner than he did Anakin. So, if GG is that skilled and Kenobi found openings throughout that battle but NEVER could against Anakin throughout there much longer battle.. how do you come to the conclusion that Anakin was messed up and not fighting very well? How do you bridge that gap comparing those battle. Anakin was fighting very well and wasn't weakening in the least. You'll remember several things here: A.) Grievous had no connection to the Force and no precognitive abilities. He made up for this with cyborg reflexes and maneuverability. But even those weren't enough to breach the master of defensive combat. B.) I never once used the wording or phrase "Anakin" followed by "not fighting very well." Don't put words in my mouth. C.) The gap is bridged by an hour of screenplay? I dunno.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All the things that you felt made him strong... power reserves, strength etc etc.. those were diminished IN ANY WAY with his fight with Kenobi. Please address these points when looking at Kenobi against GG and Kenobi against AnakinFor starters, I can't address a point about Anakin's strengths and powers during the Utapau duel. If you'll recall, Anakin wasn't there.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, since you keep on saying Anakin mind was clear... please post for me the narration that says his mind was all over the place and this was effecting his skills. Please post the narration that talks about him not wanting to kill Kenobi. Problem is, these lines don't exist, as thus it's merely conjecture on people's part to give a reason why Anakin lost. There is no reason needed... Kenobi just knows how to beat any Anakin we've seen. Next round: A.) There is no narration concerning Anakin's mentality. What's lacking from Stover's usually descriptive take on central character's mentality is Anakin's. It's all about Obi-Wan in the Mustafar duel. What IS present though is the film. Now I foresee we (you, I and TJ) getting in to a scuffle about the merits of visual facial features, George Lucas' writing abilities, and Hayden Christensen's acting, but... and I stress the next point... I challenge you to watch that scene again and see in Anakin's face and hear in Anakin's voice, the presence of control, clarity, and calm. Re-watch/re-read RotS again, paying attention to what Anakin has just done/experienced in the last couple days and tell me with a straight face screen, that Vader is, as the novel describes him on the Invisible Hand, "clear as a crystal bell" and possessing of "pristine clarity".

*sigh*

B.) Please post for me my own words of him "not wanting to kill Kenobi".

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again you bring up the Padme issue.. Going by narration.. HE KNEW she was alive when he let her go.. this had no effect on him. The ONLY effect it did have on him was making him wanting to kill Kenobi more, for feeling like he turned her against him. That fueled his rage and made him want to kill him, not hold back against Kenobi. Anakin "thought about (Padme) every day" for 10 years. He openly professed his love and desire for her. He was willing to turn his back on his entire life AND aid in the slaughter of said life (children not excluded)... all for her. And she betrays him. Thus (substitute the caps for italics, I couldn't be bothered):

"He wasn't listening to her. He wasn't looking at her. He was looking past her shoulder. Feral joy burned from his eyes, and his face was no longer human...
'YOU,' growled a voice that should have been her love's. 'You BROUGHT him here...'
She turned back, and now he WAS looking at her.
His eyes were full of flame...
'Anakin?'
'Padme, move AWAY.' There was an urgency in Obi-Wan's voice that sounded closer to fear than Padme had ever heard from him. 'He's not who you think he is. He WILL harm you.'
Anakin's lips peeled off his teeth. 'I would thank for this, if it were a gift of love.'
Trembling, shaking her head, she began to back away. 'No, Anakin--no...'
'Palpatine was right. Sometimes it is the closest who cannot see. I loved you too much, Padme.'
He made a fist, and she couldn't breathe.
'I loved you too much to SEE you! To see what you ARE!'
A veil of red descended on the world. She clawed at her throat, but there was nothing her hands could touch.
'Let her go, Anakin.'
His answer was a predator's snarl, over the body of its prey. 'You will not take her from me!'"

...

"In the Force, Anakin burned like a fusion torch. "You turned her against me.'...
'Let me take Padme to a medcenter. She's hurt, Anakin. She needs medical attention.'
'She stays.'
'Anakin--'
'YOU don't get to take her ANYWHERE. You don't get to TOUCH her. She's MINE, do you understand? It's YOUR fault, ALL of it--you made her BETRAY ME!'"



Oh, f*ck that took too long.

The man was obsessed with Padme. Her betrayal at his best friend's hands isn't something you go "Oh, well, too bad" to. He f*cking flipped! And that's after his own great betrayal of Mace and the entire Order. That tear you saw, during RotS, that wasn't a tear of joy at his new found power.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You brinb up the acts he did and are then trying to claim it effected him ni his fight with Kenobi. He had already given himself over to the darkside.. his rage was in full effect... the doubts and hesitiation weren't there that you claim or please post the evidence. He just killed Mace..(no going back after that).. then goes on to kill innocent KIDS and more Jedi... (certainly no going back after that). Yet you feel like he was being pulled and had doubt and his mind was a mess and that is why he lost.. nah. By the time he fought Kenobi he had already choosen his path and had rage fueling him to kill kenobi.. not doubts. IF ANYBODY was MORE messed up and doubting things.. it was Kenobi not Anakin. So I could very easily say.. a messed up mind Kenobi still punked a raging Anakin who still had his rage, force reserves, incredible strength etc etc. A more conflicted Kenobi beat a less conflicted Anakin is how the fight should be viewed. I see NO evidence that the Anakin that fought Dooku would beat Kenobi.. The view that Anakin was messed up and thats why he lost is poop and nothing more. Again, stop claiming words I never spoke, chiefly this time, "doubts" and "hesitation". You don't butcher children, your friends, your allies, and your life because your squeamish at the thought of doing so.

As for your theory of Kenobi being more messed up:

"With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go.
Of everything.
His hopes. His fears, His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin.
And their lightsabers."

...

"Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.
It was a place, he decided, they should reach together."

...

"The mane he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...
Obi-Wan still loved him.
Yoda said it flat out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.
Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...
He let it go."



Yeah, the guy was messed up alright.

I disagree with the opinion that a "in the zone" anakin could defeat Dooku in a one-on-one to the death from the beginning duel.

In that duel when Anakin was on the ground Obi Wan used the Force to ge his lighsaber an try and finish Anakin/Vader off.

Originally posted by KMCmember
In that duel when Anakin was on the ground Obi Wan used the Force to ge his lighsaber an try and finish Anakin/Vader off.

According to the novelization he wasn't yet going for the kill. For all we know he was going to stop with his saber by Vader's throat, just as Mace stopped his blade against Sidious.

Originally posted by truejedi
I disagree with the opinion that a "in the zone" anakin could defeat Dooku in a one-on-one to the death from the beginning duel. We're gonna have to settle at that then. I think he could.

I think he could as well. The fact that dude cut his freakin' head off makes me feel strongly affirmed in my belief.

It's the speed at which he defeated him. I understand that Dooku went in there knowing he would lose (doubt he foresaw the amputation, though). He went from a point of holding the advantage over Anakin to being on his knees without hands in literal seconds. I don't see even a fully committed Dooku from the get-go surviving that blitz, nevermind one's who more than warmed up for it.

haha, you say "warmed up." but the novel says"exhausted" But I understand what you are saying. The "decided" to win speech is a pretty good argument for you.

and blax, you are being facetious, however anakin won a 2 on 1 duel with a Dooku who spent MOST of that duel not planning on winning. So to say its as simple as anakin won, so he WOULD win a one-on-one duel is not a complex enough argument.

IIRC Lucas called both Obiwan and Anakin "level nine" in ROTS, but Anakin was "level ten" at the end with the dark side. Obiwan was giving ground most of the fight, but matched Anakin a few times when they locked up. Anakin ultimately lost because he attempted that stupid leap "the height og hubris".

I`d give Obiwan the win before Anakin comitted himself to the dark side. After that I still see Obi eventually winning more often than not unless it was a fight in a closed room. Give Anakin a few months to come to terms with his feelings and the dark side, then I think he would pull a majority perhaps a clear one.

Originally posted by Mshinu
IIRC Lucas called both Obiwan and Anakin "level nine" in ROTS, but Anakin was "level ten" at the end with the dark side. Obiwan was giving ground most of the fight, but matched Anakin a few times when they locked up. Anakin ultimately lost because he attempted that stupid leap "the height og hubris".

I`d give Obiwan the win before Anakin comitted himself to the dark side. After that I still see Obi eventually winning more often than not unless it was a fight in a closed room. Give Anakin a few months to come to terms with his feelings and the dark side, then I think he would pull a majority perhaps a clear one. Didn't the Level system come from Nic Gillard, an involved, but non-canon source?

The fact remains, that Anakin would lose to Kenobi pretty much most times they fought. The whole notion that he was so conflicted and his mind was a mess is rubbish. Kenobi mind was also a miss and in fact he also through narration makes this clear. There is ZERO narration that talks about Anakin being conflicted or not wanting to kill Kenobi. There is narration that talks about Kenobi being conflicted. So this nonsense about the only reason Kenobi won was because Anakin was a mess is bs. A kenobi with his mind messed up... beat a skywalker who was less conflicted is how it should read.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fact remains, that Anakin would lose to Kenobi pretty much most times they fought. The whole notion that he was so conflicted and his mind was a mess is rubbish. Kenobi mind was also a miss and in fact he also through narration makes this clear. There is ZERO narration that talks about Anakin being conflicted or not wanting to kill Kenobi. There is narration that talks about Kenobi being conflicted. So this nonsense about the only reason Kenobi won was because Anakin was a mess is bs. A kenobi with his mind messed up... beat a skywalker who was less conflicted is how it should read. Okay then... you're rather useless to talk to. The man's gone insane and tries to kill his wife and best friend all over what is in actuality, a misunderstanding. His mind. Is. SNAPPED. Obi-Wan's is a clear Jedi's mind. Did you not read the passages I quoted for you?

Whatever, if you wanna disregard them in lieu of your opinion, go ahead.

Obi-Wan was an 8. Anakin, Mace, Yoda, and Sidious were all 9s... But it is pointless as Lord Lucien pointed out asNick Gillard said it and he is a non-canon source.

Also from the RotS Junior Novel. "As Anakin's lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he'd make Anakin work for it. He'd fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness that came from Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin's hands."

Originally posted by ares834
Obi-Wan was an 8. Anakin, Mace, Yoda, and Sidious were all 9s... But it is pointless as Lord Lucien pointed out asNick Gillard said it and he is a non-canon source.

Also from the RotS Junior Novel. "As Anakin's lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he'd make Anakin work for it. He'd fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness that came from Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin's hands."

Yep, but despite that insight Obiwan still won and crippeled Anakin didn`t he? Obviously this "prophecy" is not fulfilled in RotS.

Obiwan makes statements like that many times, like "Why do I feel you are going to be the death of me?" in episide 2. And we all know that Anakin as Darth Vader will kill Obiwan in episode 4.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Yep, but despite that insight Obiwan still won and crippeled Anakin didn`t he? Obviously this "prophecy" is not fulfilled in RotS.No... it was fulfilled in ANH. His insight was correct.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Obiwan makes statements like that many times, like "Why do I feel you are going to be the death of me?" in episide 2. And we all know that Anakin as Darth Vader will kill Obiwan in episode 4. Kenobi meant it as a joke, we see it as foreshadowing. It's unlike the junior novel--that one was prediction.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Okay then... you're rather useless to talk to. The man's gone insane and tries to kill his wife and best friend all over what is in actuality, a misunderstanding. His mind. Is. SNAPPED. Obi-Wan's is a clear Jedi's mind. Did you not read the passages I quoted for you?

Whatever, if you wanna disregard them in lieu of your opinion, go ahead.

I didn't disregard anything buddy. I read each and every word you typed. The problem was, you offered nothing to dispell the notion through narration that Anakin was conflicted. You even admit that there is no narration that talks about this being the case, and the confliction narration is only about Kenobi. So I'm 100% correct in saying the narration makes it clear that Kenobi was conflicted and not Anakin. We can try and use conjecture and logic to say Anakin could've been conflicted. Cool. However, there isn't narration backing that up, there is narration backing up Kenobi being conflicted.

Furthermore, you keep on bringing up Padame... Yes it bothered him.. but the fact remains CLEAR through narration that he knew he didn't KILL her. What you are also forgetting is the rage and anger that Anakin felt towards Kenobi. Are we forgetting that Rage and Anger FUEL a DS user. Those various things leads to the DS and they tap into those "negative" feelings more. So while you call those things bad.. in actuality they fueled his anger and desire to kill kenobi. Kenobi on the other hand... was hesitant to kill Anakin. Lets not also forget that Anakin had already kid Mace... killed younglings... killed other jedi... AWHILE before he met Kenobi. Sure it might have been on his mind but he was on the path he was on.. period. He wasn't conflicted about his choice. What we have here is a Anakin who has been through a lot in recent times who is anger and wants to kill kenobi. We have a kenobi who is hesitant to kill Anakin and the only one conflicted about doing so. Yet, Kenobi still proved superior just like he would against a In The Zone Anakin. He just knows him all too well.

"In the zone" means calm and collected and in control of yourself. Anakin was definitely not in the zone like Anakin Solo in Star by Star when he opened himself to the Force and slaughtered numerous Vong despite suffering countless wounds. Solo knew he was going to die, but accepted it. Anakin Skywalker now Vader was bloodlusted, emotionally out of control and was so hell-bent on killing Kenobi that he got sloppy.

Another factor is Kenobi and Anakin sparred virtually every day so he was very familiar with his Djem So. I'm not sure if there was a Force bond, but Kenobi would have won every time. Another factor is that Kenobi killed Sith who was "in the zone" and his name was Maul. IMO Maul was a far better fighter than Anakin, but that doesn't matter. Kenobi would have won anyway.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
"In the zone" means calm and collected and in control of yourself. Anakin was definitely not in the zone like Anakin Solo in Star by Star when he opened himself to the Force and slaughtered numerous Vong despite suffering countless wounds. Solo knew he was going to die, but accepted it. Anakin Skywalker now Vader was bloodlusted, emotionally out of control and was so hell-bent on killing Kenobi that he got sloppy.

Another factor is Kenobi and Anakin sparred virtually every day so he was very familiar with his Djem So. I'm not sure if there was a Force bond, but Kenobi would have won every time. Another factor is that Kenobi killed Sith who was "in the zone" and his name was Maul. IMO Maul was a far better fighter than Anakin, but that doesn't matter. Kenobi would have won anyway.

So you basically agree with me right Darth?

My whole point in starting this thread is to dispell the notion that only Anakin was conflicted as Kenobi mind also was and had emotions running through him as well. People kept on saying... Oooo Anakin was mind f'd and that is why he lost, and I just don't buy that one bit.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
...Maul was a far better fighter than Anakin...

WTF?!?!?! WOW!! Big words there bub.

I just don't see where it is stated that Anakin was fighting anywhere less than his usual ability in ROTS on mustafar.

Everyone is making assumptions based on how a normal human being would "feel" in that situation, but there is not a single canon source that supports the idea that anything that was happening to Anakin affected his combat ability.

(that i've seen posted yet, if someone has one, please do so)

Until that source is posted, pretending like Anakin was somehow gimped against Kenobi is an assumption: Something we don't put up with in this forum. We only use canon.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I didn't disregard anything buddy. I read each and every word you typed. The problem was, you offered nothing to dispell the notion through narration that Anakin was conflicted. You even admit that there is no narration that talks about this being the case, and the confliction narration is only about Kenobi.Oh, God...

Not once, in the entire mythos, are males referred to in narration as having a penis. So does that mean they have none?

Remember in Rots (the movie) where Vader is looking out over Mustafar following the slaughter, and that tear rolls down his cheek? What do you think that tear was for? Someone who's totally evil, like Palpatine, wouldn't weep after that. That was the face of a man torn apart by what he was doing. The conclusion he jumped to upon Padme's "betrayal" was that "(she was) with him! You brought him here to kill me!" A sane, rational, clear-headed man would not accuse (and then Force-choke) his wife--the woman he turned to the Dark Side to save, of plotting his death. Those are the actions of man conflicted, confused, and torn apart by something. If you... honestly can't understand that...



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So I'm 100% correct in saying the narration makes it clear that Kenobi was conflicted and not Anakin. We can try and use conjecture and logic to say Anakin could've been conflicted. Cool. However, there isn't narration backing that up, there is narration backing up Kenobi being conflicted. Oh, God...

I'll repeat this for the last time: those narrative lines on Kenobi's thoughts, the ones where he gave up his hopes and fears, the line where he let go of is blind attachment to Anakin--- that is not the description of a conflicted man. That is a determined man, who is willing to do what he now knows is necessary. "It was a place he decided they should reach together." He was accepting his death. That is the Jedi way, and Obi-Wan was embracing it fully. He was not conflicted.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, you keep on bringing up Padame... Yes it bothered him.. but the fact remains CLEAR through narration that he knew he didn't KILL her.You seem to be under the impression that issue of Padme was the only thing bothering Anakin. He'd been having guilty delusion of grandeur between his duel with Dooku up until his submission. "I want more, but I know I know I shouldn't." The novel explains his anger of being refused the rank of Master not just to sate his own ego, but because only a Master was allowed access certain archives and holocrons (that he wanted to gain power--to save Padme).

And Padme's "life or death" situation wasn't what prompted him to accuse her of betrayal and conspiring his murder. Whether she was alive or not wasn't what made him choke her in to unconsciousness. He didn't get angry at Obi-Wan because she had died. He was enraged that she had betrayed him, seemingly at Obi-Wan's prompting. "You turned her against me!"


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What you are also forgetting is the rage and anger that Anakin felt towards Kenobi. Are we forgetting that Rage and Anger FUEL a DS user. Those various things leads to the DS and they tap into those "negative" feelings more. So while you call those things bad.. in actuality they fueled his anger and desire to kill kenobi.No, I'm not forgetting any of that. What you are forgetting is why he was so furious, why he wanted to kill Kenobi. You seem to lack some memory functions, so if you can't think of those reasons, read my above response directly preceding this one.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi on the other hand... was hesitant to kill Anakin. Lets not also forget that Anakin had already kid Mace... killed younglings... killed other jedi... AWHILE before he met Kenobi. Sure it might have been on his mind but he was on the path he was on.. period. He wasn't conflicted about his choice. What we have here is a Anakin who has been through a lot in recent times who is anger and wants to kill kenobi. We have a kenobi who is hesitant to kill Anakin and the only one conflicted about doing so. Yet, Kenobi still proved superior just like he would against a In The Zone Anakin. He just knows him all too well. Oh, God...

I hope by the time you've reached this part that you'll have re-re-re-learned the fact that Kenobi was hesitant to kill Anakin---until he "let it go." Until he let go of his attachment. Please don't make me retype the passages again.

I don't how you define the phrases and words we've been exchanging, but if you think that Kenobi "letting go of his attachment" for Anakin means "being confused and not knowing what to do because of his attachment" for Anakin... then I don't know what to do with you.

If you think Anakin's face, his words and actions on the landing pad, and his deteriorating mental state during the build-up of the story is the behavior of a determined man who's cast aside his doubts and fears and confusion and has fully embraced his new self and exiled his old life, then... well let's just say that I wouldn't want to meet you in person.

That determination, that clear-headedness I mentioned, that absolute conviction that "this is it" and the moment of "Oh, I get it now" are what defines what we call "Zone" Anakin. The clarity of a Jedi with the fury of the Dark Side. That version of Anakin is something Kenobi could not trick or defeat in combat.

Lucien, i'm not seeing where any of the emotional turmoil that anakin was supposedly feeling (or maybe he wasn't, maybe he had turned into a cold-hearted bastard, we don't know. Anything about Anakin's emotional state is speculation since we don't have a source that confirms.) but if he WAS feeling everything you have supposed that he is feeling, where is it stated that that affected his combat ability? Anakin (and Kenobi) were battle-hardened war generals. They were used to losing friends in combat and continuing the fight.

I mean, Yoda and Dooku were fighting, was Dooku the former padawan so conflicted to the point of combat ineptitude?

Originally posted by truejedi
I mean, Yoda and Dooku were fighting, was Dooku the former padawan so conflicted to the point of combat ineptitude?

This is one of the worst comparisons... ever.

But the answer is no, Dooku wasn't conflicted, he was positive that what he was doing was the right thing and he didn't just go through hell.

Anakin:
http://th716.photobucket.com/albums/ww165/savannahbanana4ever/Star%20Wars/th_2images.jpg

Dooku:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070308192513/starwars/nl/images/thumb/1/1f/Dooku_lightning.jpg/250px-Dooku_lightning.jpg

Originally posted by truejedi
Lucien, i'm not seeing where any of the emotional turmoil that anakin was supposedly feeling (or maybe he wasn't, maybe he had turned into a cold-hearted bastard, we don't know. Anything about Anakin's emotional state is speculation since we don't have a source that confirms.) but if he WAS feeling everything you have supposed that he is feeling, where is it stated that that affected his combat ability? Anakin (and Kenobi) were battle-hardened war generals. They were used to losing friends in combat and continuing the fight.

Anakin, like Dooku, wasn't conflicted here. He knew he was doing the right thing during the war and he was clear minded. While fighting Obi-Wan he obviously wasn't.

I don't know if the "higher ground" example has been given yet. But would Anakin really take the leap if it happened at the beginning of RotS against Dooku?

It's pretty obvious by just seeing the movie that Anakin wasn't a cold-hearted bastard. Like Lucien said, he was crying and yelling like an emotional unrational wreck.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This is one of the worst comparisons... ever.

But the answer is no, Dooku wasn't conflicted, he was positive that what he was doing was the right thing and he didn't just go through hell.

Anakin:
http://th716.photobucket.com/albums/ww165/savannahbanana4ever/Star%20Wars/th_2images.jpg

Dooku:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070308192513/starwars/nl/images/thumb/1/1f/Dooku_lightning.jpg/250px-Dooku_lightning.jpg


Agreed on the comparison being a stretch. However, Anakin was ALSO sure he was doing the right thing. "The Jedi are evil." He tried to explain the same thing to Padme. I don't see where it says he wasn't sure he was doing the right thing? Still asking for a source, and you still haven't given me one.



Source please? I don't recall Anakin ever expressing doubt in what he was doing was right. He was very strong-minded, even Kenobi said so.


I certainly don't know. Do you? Don't speculate. He did attack Dooku in AOTC in a rash manner that got his ass handed to him.



Killed younglings? Pretty cold-hearted bastard actually.

So you are saying: crying, yelling==diminished combat capability?

Thats the two things we need sources for:

1. That Anakin was emotionally conflicted during his fight with Kenobi. (We only have a canon source that states Kenobi was conflicted. "To strike Anakin down would burn his heart to ash."

2. That IF number 1 on this list is established, that it somehow affect his combat ability.


I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm simply asking for canon proof for your argument from yourself or Lucious. We ask for this all the time, its nothing new. If the canon proof exists and is posted, I will happily concede the argument.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh, God...

Not once, in the entire mythos, are males referred to in narration as having a penis. So does that mean they have none?

Remember in Rots (the movie) where Vader is looking out over Mustafar following the slaughter, and that tear rolls down his cheek? What do you think that tear was for? Someone who's totally evil, like Palpatine, wouldn't weep after that. That was the face of a man torn apart by what he was doing. The conclusion he jumped to upon Padme's "betrayal" was that "(she was) with him! You brought him here to kill me!" A sane, rational, clear-headed man would not accuse (and then Force-choke) his wife--the woman he turned to the Dark Side to save, of plotting his death. Those are the actions of man conflicted, confused, and torn apart by something. If you... honestly can't understand that...



Oh, God...

I'll repeat this for the last time: those narrative lines on Kenobi's thoughts, the ones where he gave up his hopes and fears, the line where he let go of is blind attachment to Anakin--- that is not the description of a conflicted man. That is a determined man, who is willing to do what he now knows is necessary. "It was a place he decided they should reach together." He was accepting his death. That is the Jedi way, and Obi-Wan was embracing it fully. He was not conflicted.

You seem to be under the impression that issue of Padme was the only thing bothering Anakin. He'd been having guilty delusion of grandeur between his duel with Dooku up until his submission. "I want more, but I know I know I shouldn't." The novel explains his anger of being refused the rank of Master not just to sate his own ego, but because only a Master was allowed access certain archives and holocrons (that he wanted to gain power--to save Padme).

And Padme's "life or death" situation wasn't what prompted him to accuse her of betrayal and conspiring his murder. Whether she was alive or not wasn't what made him choke her in to unconsciousness. He didn't get angry at Obi-Wan because she had died. He was enraged that she had betrayed him, seemingly at Obi-Wan's prompting. "You turned her against me!"


No, I'm not forgetting any of that. What you are forgetting is why he was so furious, why he wanted to kill Kenobi. You seem to lack some memory functions, so if you can't think of those reasons, read my above response directly preceding this one.

Oh, God...

I hope by the time you've reached this part that you'll have re-re-re-learned the fact that Kenobi was hesitant to kill Anakin---until he "let it go." Until he let go of his attachment. Please don't make me retype the passages again.

I don't how you define the phrases and words we've been exchanging, but if you think that Kenobi "letting go of his attachment" for Anakin means "being confused and not knowing what to do because of his attachment" for Anakin... then I don't know what to do with you.

If you think Anakin's face, his words and actions on the landing pad, and his deteriorating mental state during the build-up of the story is the behavior of a determined man who's cast aside his doubts and fears and confusion and has fully embraced his new self and exiled his old life, then... well let's just say that I wouldn't want to meet you in person.

That determination, that clear-headedness I mentioned, that absolute conviction that "this is it" and the moment of "Oh, I get it now" are what defines what we call "Zone" Anakin. The clarity of a Jedi with the fury of the Dark Side. That version of Anakin is something Kenobi could not trick or defeat in combat.

Well said Lucien. While canon is by far the ultimate say-so in regards to ANY debate, some things are just so heavily implied that they're nearly impossible to ignore by any rational thinking person.

Originally posted by truejedi

So you are saying: crying, yelling==diminished combat capability?

YES!!! ABSOLUTELY!! In the sense that his mental clarity is affected, absolutely! Crying and yelling are signs of emotional distress. Emotional distress of this nature leads to lack of mental clarity and of self-control. One is at a disadvantage when lacking clairty of mind and self-control during combat, or most anything for that matter. Have you taken any form of combat training? If so, what do you remember about self-control? Even w/ boxing (of which I have close to 10 yrs experience) and mma (a few months), self-control and clarity of mind are synonomous with eachother and of utmost importance.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
YES!!! ABSOLUTELY!! In the sense that his mental clarity is affected, absolutely! Crying and yelling are signs of emotional distress. Emotional distress of this nature leads to lack of mental clarity and of self-control. One is at a disadvantage when lacking clairty of mind and self-control during combat, or most anything for that matter. Have you taken any form of combat training? If so, what do you remember about self-control? Even w/ boxing (of which I have close to 10 yrs experience) and mma (a few months), self-control and clarity of mind are synonomous with eachother and of utmost importance.

This would only be true if this was stated through canon narration or show in the actual fight that took place... As stated in my original post... Take a look at how easily Obi beat a very very good lightsaber practioner. Someone who has done very well against Mace among other Jedi masters. Yet Kenobi was able to cut him down limb by limb is quick manner. Yet against Anakin he had no such luck or opening to do so. The fight lasted a great great deal longer. This proves that Anakin was fighting JUST FINE and doing very well for himself. He was even putting kenobi in vulnerable positions. So no, this isn't to be assumed because we have canon evidence pointing out that he was fighting very well and doing very well.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This would only be true if this was stated through canon narration or show in the actual fight that took place

Again... While canon is by far the ultimate say-so in regards to ANY debate, some things are just so heavily implied that they're nearly impossible to ignore by any rational thinking person.

And as Lord Lucien put it, there are no canon quotes about any of the Jedi males "having a penis", so according to your logic, it MUST be false. There are also no canon quotes regarding Anakin and Padme getting it on... BUT it is heavily implied since she was pregnant with his child.

Jin, did you have ANYTHING from canon to back you up? Or just supposition?

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Again... While canon is by far the ultimate say-so in regards to ANY debate, some things are just so heavily implied that they're nearly impossible to ignore by any rational thinking person.

And as Lord Lucien put it, there are no canon quotes about any of the Jedi males "having a penis", so according to your logic, it MUST be false. There are also no canon quotes regarding Anakin and Padme getting it on... BUT it is heavily implied since she was pregnant with his child.

You said this already. However, there was nothing in that fight that indicated he wasn't fighting effectively and doing very well for himself. I pointed out how G.G. has done against better jedi such as Mace, yet Kanobi methodically picked him apart. he found no such openings against Anakin. So even with your conjecture about his state of mind it's clear through the canon movie that Anakin fought very well and was using his anger at Kenobi to try and kill him. The fight proved it didn't have any effect on his fighting ability.

Originally posted by truejedi
Jin, did you have ANYTHING from canon to back you up? Or just supposition?

TJ, Just because something isn't spelled out within/by a canonical source, doesn't mean it isn't valid. Some things are just HEAVILY implied. Do I have a canon source backing me up? Just what I and a great many others are able to pull from watching RotS and reading the novelization. It's right there, it doesn't need to be spelled out word for word. Omission doesn't necessarily = something being non-existent/invalid.

Originally posted by truejedi
Lucien, i'm not seeing where any of the emotional turmoil that anakin was supposedly feeling (or maybe he wasn't, maybe he had turned into a cold-hearted bastard, we don't know. Anything about Anakin's emotional state is speculation since we don't have a source that confirms.) but if he WAS feeling everything you have supposed that he is feeling, where is it stated that that affected his combat ability? Anakin (and Kenobi) were battle-hardened war generals. They were used to losing friends in combat and continuing the fight. It didn't affect his skill level, but his thought process. Haven't you ever heard it's best not to fight in anger, that a clear head is needed? Anakin was using the Dark Side, definitely, but he did not possess a mind that was "clear as a crystal bell." He did not possess "clarity", as he had when he Zoned out on Dooku.


For the sake of neat outlining:

There's possessing a clear head.
There's possessing of a clouded mind fueled by the Dark Side.
There's possessing of a clear head fueled by the Dark Side.

That last one defines his "Zone" moment. The novel describes his clarity of mind paired with his fury. During the Mustafar duel, the man was not--NOT clear in the head. Thanosi may not be able to distinguish between torment/anguish and serenity, but I know you can.

I know I'll come off as a hypocrite, what with my spiel against Q99, but some things (such as facial features, tone of voice) are implications that just can't be ignored because there's noone from LucasArts to put it in to text for us. I'll keep going back to this: No one is ever mentioned as having a scrotum, but for f*ckssake, I refuse to be THAT stubborn.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It didn't affect his skill level, but his thought process. Haven't you ever heard it's best not to fight in anger, that a clear head is needed? Anakin was using the Dark Side, definitely, but he did not possess a mind that was "clear as a crystal bell." He did not possess "clarity", as he had when he Zoned out on Dooku.


For the sake of neat outlining:

There's possessing a clear head.
There's possessing of a clouded mind fueled by the Dark Side.
There's possessing of a clear head fueled by the Dark Side.

That last one defines his "Zone" moment. The novel describes his clarity of mind paired with his fury. During the Mustafar duel, the man was not--NOT clear in the head. Thanosi may not be able to distinguish between torment/anguish and serenity, but I know you can.

I know I'll come off as a hypocrite, what with my spiel against Q99, but some things (such as facial features, tone of voice) are implications that just can't be ignored because there's noone from LucasArts to put it in to text for us. I'll keep going back to this: No one is ever mentioned as having a scrotum, but for f*ckssake, I refuse to be THAT stubborn.

Well played, Canadian!!

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Well played, Canadian!! There are few who realize Canada's own Manifest Destiny will come about by talking America in to joining us. It's why our Mounties look so spiffing--makes people listen to 'em.

I... uh... hmmm... ehh... I suppose it's good to be mounted... usually...

Urrgh.. all this emo talk about being emotionally conflicted and who was crying most leaves a foul taste in my mouth. Obiwan and Anakin are experienced warriors, naturally they have extensive training in retaining combat effectiveness under stress. Going by how the fight was shown in the movie, I`d say they both fought to the limit of their abilites (ignoring special cases like crystal mind or whatever SW call those zen-like concepts.) Anakin ulitmately lost because he attemptet that stupid leap, an act of overconfidence rather than grief.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Urrgh.. all this emo talk about being emotionally conflicted and who was crying most leaves a foul taste in my mouth. Obiwan and Anakin are experienced warriors, naturally they have extensive training in retaining combat effectiveness under stress. Going by how the fight was shown in the movie, I`d say they both fought to the limit of their abilites (ignoring special cases like crystal mind or whatever SW call those zen-like concepts.) Anakin ulitmately lost because he attemptet that stupid leap, an act of overconfidence rather than grief. See, that's what we call "boring".

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
See, that's what we call "boring".

Am I spoiling your fun?

Originally posted by Mshinu
Am I spoiling your fun? Nah.

Yeh.

That's stupid. You're stupid. I hate all of you!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It didn't affect his skill level, but his thought process. Haven't you ever heard it's best not to fight in anger, that a clear head is needed? Anakin was using the Dark Side, definitely, but he did not possess a mind that was "clear as a crystal bell." He did not possess "clarity", as he had when he Zoned out on Dooku.


For the sake of neat outlining:

There's possessing a clear head.
There's possessing of a clouded mind fueled by the Dark Side.
There's possessing of a clear head fueled by the Dark Side.

That last one defines his "Zone" moment. The novel describes his clarity of mind paired with his fury. During the Mustafar duel, the man was not--NOT clear in the head. Thanosi may not be able to distinguish between torment/anguish and serenity, but I know you can.

I know I'll come off as a hypocrite, what with my spiel against Q99, but some things (such as facial features, tone of voice) are implications that just can't be ignored because there's noone from LucasArts to put it in to text for us. I'll keep going back to this: No one is ever mentioned as having a scrotum, but for f*ckssake, I refuse to be THAT stubborn.

You're correct you do come across as a hypocrite. Nothing new there though. So you agree his combat ability wasn't diminished which has been the entire point i have made from the start. This notion that the only reason Kenobi won was because of Anakin emotional state is bs. Even with clarity I would still give Obi the majority. So you're correct on two fronts... first you're a hypocrite and have no narration to back up your speculation. Second, Anakin's combat abilities weren't diminished

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're correct you do come across as a hypocrite. Nothing new there though. So you agree his combat ability wasn't diminished which has been the entire point i have made from the start.

You are annoying. Either you ignore what he's saying or you just don't get it. Where did he say that Anakin's combat ability wasn't diminished?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This notion that the only reason Kenobi won was because of Anakin emotional state is bs.

Where did anyone say that the only reason Kenobi won was because of Anakin's emotional state?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Even with clarity I would still give Obi the majority.

This is the real case of speculation. The only thing we know is that Vader with a clear head defeated Obi-Wan in ANH.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
have no narration to back up your speculation.

You always need narration to back up the obvious? You don't explain everything in a movie, like I said before, sometimes the movie asks you to think for yourself and draw the obvious conclusions yourself. It's not a movie for absolute idiots who need to be told everything because they can't think for themselves.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Second, Anakin's combat abilities weren't diminished

I could just repeat what the Canadian said about clarity of mind, but I'm starting to realise you're a wall.

It's like quoting Shakespeare to a Hershey bar: no matter how eloquent or refined you are, he's too thick and nutty to understand.


As it is, I've given up on that guy--he's too stupid. It's TJ I'm hoping will clue in.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This is the real case of speculation. The only thing we know is that Vader with a clear head defeated Obi-Wan in ANH.


Umm, no. Obiwan allowed himself to be struck down.

It is also interesting to note that Vader at this point himself states he was "but a student" last time they fought.
Wiser now, even he himself has realized he was not all that.

Originally posted by truejedi
Jin, did you have ANYTHING from canon to back you up? Or just supposition?

Lord Lucian and others have already said it a lot more eloquently but I'll throw my own two pennies in.

TJ, do you not know that one of the biggest rules in storytelling (movies, novels etc) is "SHOW, don't TELL"?

As pointed out before, we shouldn't need to have Anakin (or the writer) TELL us he's emotionally conflicted. The story SHOWS us this by his actions.

Seriously just use a little common sense. Put two and two together. As Slash said, you shouldn't need to be told everything. The writer trusts the reader/viewer to be able to figure stuff like this out without needing to have it spoonfed to them.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again you bring up the Padme issue.. Going by narration.. HE KNEW she was alive when he let her go.. this had no effect on him.

Okay, I know I'm probably wasting my time here, but what the heck.

No effect? Do you honestly think that believing his wife had betrayed him would have no effect on his mental state?

"HE KNEW she was alive..." Not the point. He was in turmoil because he believed she had betrayed him.

Let's employ a little common sense here.

In his fight with Dooku Anakin was focused on saving Palpatine and Kenobi. He had clarity and he had focus. That allowed him to channel his anger effectively rather than being overwhelmed by it.

Against Kenobi, he had no clarity. He believed that his wife had betrayed him and that wrecked his focus so that he was being overwhelmed by his anger rather than channelling it. Channelling one's anger is very different than having it consume them.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The view that Anakin was messed up and thats why he lost is poop and nothing more.

No, that view is sound common sense.

Again, our friend common sense tells us that someone who believes his beloved has betrayed him will be filled with turmoil and so be less effective than when he had a clear, focused mind and heart.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Umm, no. Obiwan allowed himself to be struck down.

It is also interesting to note that Vader at this point himself states he was "but a student" last time they fought.
Wiser now, even he himself has realized he was not all that.

Shut up. I was merely saying that one cannot prove Obi-Wan would win even if Anakin was as clear-headed like before he decided to go all Sith and Stupid. Maybe he would've had the sanity to not take the leap, maybe he woudn't have, we don't know. But most likely he wouldn't have if he was thinking clearly.

Point is, as the Canadian and chilled monkey have pointed out, Anakin wasn't in the same state of mind while fighting Obi-Wan as he was while fighting Dooku. If one chooses to ignore the obvious pieces of evidence in the movie, then they are hopeless.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Shut up.

Excuse me?



You seem to be ignoring quite a bit of evidence yourself.

The state of mind Anakin acheived in the fight with Dooku was special, there is nothing to suggest he would be able to get there without Palps nearby. Also, he only entered that state for a few seconds and there is no evidence he cold keep it up for a prolonged fight with Obiwan. It is indentical to Luke defeating Vader, something that would only occur under a specific set of circumstances. Vader would massacer that Luke in a straight up fight.

What is SHOWN in RotS is a very impressive duel betwen Obi and Ani, there is little to suggest either are less than at their finest. Actually Anakin seems to be faster than ever, the cause implied to be him turning to the dark side.

Anakin made the jump because of arrogance. "You underestimate my power" Lucas even states as much in the commentary. Later in life he grew wiser as Vader, but Ani was always overconfident in his abilities. Remember he tried to take dooku alone as a padawan? Look at his entire life and he has a history of doing reckless things, admittedly often suceeding.
Speaking of Dooku, Anakin`s trust in his abilities in this fight pretty much echo Dooku fighting Youa in AOTC. Both believed they had grown more powerful than their masters and they are proven wrong.
"I have grown more powerful than any Jedi. Even you!"
"Much to learn you still have"

And about the much wanked "Zone Anakin" he would definately beat Obiwan unless Obi was able to go "Zone Obiwan" too. This state of mind is pretty much the holy grail of various martial arts and schools of meditation, called no-mind or mushin or whatever.
Given the extremely few times any Jedi has been able to get there, I think a darkside Ani`s chanses are extremely small. Did Vader ever do this?

Originally posted by Mshinu
Excuse me?



You seem to be ignoring quite a bit of evidence yourself.

The state of mind Anakin acheived in the fight with Dooku was special, there is nothing to suggest he would be able to get there without Palps nearby. Also, he only entered that state for a few seconds and there is no evidence he cold keep it up for a prolonged fight with Obiwan. It is indentical to Luke defeating Vader, something that would only occur under a specific set of circumstances. Vader would massacer that Luke in a straight up fight.

What is SHOWN in RotS is a very impressive duel betwen Obi and Ani, there is little to suggest either are less than at their finest. Actually Anakin seems to be faster than ever, the cause implied to be him turning to the dark side.

Anakin made the jump because of arrogance. "You underestimate my power" Lucas even states as much in the commentary. Later in life he grew wiser as Vader, but Ani was always overconfident in his abilities. Remember he tried to take dooku alone as a padawan? Look at his entire life and he has a history of doing reckless things, admittedly often suceeding.
Speaking of Dooku, Anakin`s trust in his abilities in this fight pretty much echo Dooku fighting Youa in AOTC. Both believed they had grown more powerful than their masters and they are proven wrong.
"I have grown more powerful than any Jedi. Even you!"
"Much to learn you still have"

And about the much wanked "Zone Anakin" he would definately beat Obiwan unless Obi was able to go "Zone Obiwan" too. This state of mind is pretty much the holy grail of various martial arts and schools of meditation, called no-mind or mushin or whatever.
Given the extremely few times any Jedi has been able to get there, I think a darkside Ani`s chanses are extremely small. Did Vader ever do this? Uh... he didn't say anything contrary to that. he just said there's no proof that Kenobi would beat Anakin in their respective natural states. And he's right, there's no proof. For either-or.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Uh... he didn't say anything contrary to that. he just said there's no proof that Kenobi would beat Anakin in their respective natural states. And he's right, there's no proof. For either-or.

There is no proof naturally, but this brings up the question what "natural state" Anakin is supposed to be.

Originally posted by Mshinu
There is no proof naturally, but this brings up the question what "natural state" Anakin is supposed to be. Pretty much the Anakin before he executed Dooku, before he was encouraged to use his fury, and before he started having visions of his wife dieing. The one we see throughout the various Clone Wars media. The one who was tag-teaming Dooku--even the Anakin that got all pissed off at Dooku for taking down Kenobi I'd say is still his naturally aggressive, yet rather restrained self.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Pretty much the Anakin before he executed Dooku, before he was encouraged to use his fury, and before he started having visions of his wife dieing. The one we see throughout the various Clone Wars media. The one who was tag-teaming Dooku--even the Anakin that got all pissed off at Dooku for taking down Kenobi I'd say is still his naturally aggressive, yet rather restrained self.

Well I guess we can use Anakin before he turned fully to the dark side. I was thinking more along the lines of a dark side Anakin without the grief.

I don`t think pre darksider Anakin would take Obiwan for a majority. Like most who turn to the dark side Ani seemed to get a boost of power in the process. Obi was still able to fend him off in an extended fight.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Well I guess we can use Anakin before he turned fully to the dark side. I was thinking more along the lines of a dark side Anakin without the grief.

I don`t think pre darksider Anakin would take Obiwan for a majority. Like most who turn to the dark side Ani seemed to get a boost of power in the process. Obi was still able to fend him off in an extended fight. I agree. Kenobi's knows him too well, and is too smart to be overcome without Anakin using the Dark Side. Though he strengthens as the fight goes on, I'd still give Obi-Wan the majority of wins against Jeid Anakin.

I have NEVER SAID he wasn't emotional or had stuff going on in his mind at the time. In fact, I've conceded this was probably the case. I saw probably, and been pointing out simply there IS NO narration that back up that claim. I've further made the point that kenobi ALSO had a variety of emotions going on in his head. He was being sent to kill his brother, his son in a sense, a person who killed innocent children, who took the side of the one group he swore to destroy. I'm sure he had feelings of anger, guilt, sadness etc etc. The narration makes it clear that he does. SO THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT

Kenobi also was dealing emotional turmoil and still pwned an anakin dealing with emotional turmoil. You guys would have a leg to stand on if the movie showed anakin getting tooled easily and quickly. However, the movie shows the EXACT OPPOSITE of that. That why your reasoning that anakin fought clouded and not well because of his emotions is totally not substantiated by narration and not shown in the least via the highest canon source. As point out and what you guys can't get around and so you try and divert the attention away from that fact. Obi beat and tooled a G.G. who went toe to toe with Mace and far far better Jedi swordsman than Anakin. He cut him down limb by limb and quickly. Against Anakin there WAS NO EASY FIGHT OR OPENINGS. So logic, on panel narration and the movie make it clear he was fighting very well and did very well. NOt some emotional mess who's skills were effected. The argument isn't whether he was emotional or not.. the argument has ALWAYS been that whether he was or wasn't KENOBI ALSO WAS and it didn't EFFECT his fighting ability. You have zero proof it did and all the proof lies in my corner. That is why you guys choose to change the focus and divert attention and say I don't get it. You can't refute that sentence in the least with any evidence and that is why you've lost this debate a long time ago

I believe that it wasn't so much that ROTS Anakin Skywalker messed up in the head, but that his arrogance of his own overestimation of his "New Powers" is what led to Obi-Wan being able to defeat Anakin. Obi-Wan was about as best of an overall Jedi that a Jedi could be. I believe that even in their fighting that Obi-Wan would hope that Anakin would turn back to the Light Side.

Obi-Wan had a lot of Qui-Gon in him especially when it came to the living force and that is why he did not kill Anakin when he had the chance. However, I don't beleive for one second that Yoda would not have killed Anakin, the first opportunity that he had he would have killed him.

Anakin allowed his arrogance and pride to prevent his victory over Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Originally posted by yoda725
I believe that it wasn't so much that ROTS Anakin Skywalker messed up in the head, but that his arrogance of his own overestimation of his "New Powers" is what led to Obi-Wan being able to defeat Anakin. Obi-Wan was about as best of an overall Jedi that a Jedi could be. I believe that even in their fighting that Obi-Wan would hope that Anakin would turn back to the Light Side.

Obi-Wan had a lot of Qui-Gon in him especially when it came to the living force and that is why he did not kill Anakin when he had the chance. However, I don't beleive for one second that Yoda would not have killed Anakin, the first opportunity that he had he would have killed him.

Anakin allowed his arrogance and pride to prevent his victory over Obi-Wan Kenobi.

This is also a factor why Anakin 'in the zone' would perform better than at the end of RotS.

Originally posted by yoda725
I believe that it wasn't so much that ROTS Anakin Skywalker messed up in the head, but that his arrogance of his own overestimation of his "New Powers" is what led to Obi-Wan being able to defeat Anakin. Obi-Wan was about as best of an overall Jedi that a Jedi could be. I believe that even in their fighting that Obi-Wan would hope that Anakin would turn back to the Light Side.

Obi-Wan had a lot of Qui-Gon in him especially when it came to the living force and that is why he did not kill Anakin when he had the chance. However, I don't beleive for one second that Yoda would not have killed Anakin, the first opportunity that he had he would have killed him.

Anakin allowed his arrogance and pride to prevent his victory over Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Just a heads up, in case you already (apparently) didn't know, the "I believe" and "I don't believe" stuff won't fly in these here forums. Canon is all that matters here, unless something so overwhelmingly obvious that it simply doesn't need to spelled out word for word.

It's a valiant effort, Slash, but it's in vain. The boy just won't accept it.

I'm trying to break the wall.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I have NEVER SAID he wasn't emotional or had stuff going on in his mind at the time. In fact, I've conceded this was probably the case. I saw probably, and been pointing out simply there IS NO narration that back up that claim. I've further made the point that kenobi ALSO had a variety of emotions going on in his head. He was being sent to kill his brother, his son in a sense, a person who killed innocent children, who took the side of the one group he swore to destroy. I'm sure he had feelings of anger, guilt, sadness etc etc. The narration makes it clear that he does. SO THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT

Kenobi also was dealing emotional turmoil and still pwned an anakin dealing with emotional turmoil.

Okay, I KNOW I'm wasting my time, but what the heck.

You do realise, don't you, that not every person is identical? Some people are better at dealing with emotional turmoil than others.

Sure, Kenobi had feelings of anger, guilt, sadness etc but he wasn't overwhelmed by them or as heavily influenced by them as Anakin was.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You guys would have a leg to stand on if the movie showed anakin getting tooled easily and quickly.

Um, why? He still has his power, skills, swordsmanship etc. He was still a dangerous opponent, just not at his best.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
However, the movie shows the EXACT OPPOSITE of that. That why your reasoning that anakin fought clouded and not well...

Whoah, whoah, whoah. No one ever said he wasn't fighting well. He was still a formiddable oppoent, just not as good as he'd be if he had a clear mind.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Against Anakin there WAS NO EASY FIGHT OR OPENINGS. So logic, on panel narration and the movie make it clear he was fighting very well and did very well. NOt some emotional mess who's skills were effected.

Again, he was fighting well, no one's denying that. All we're saying is that he wasn't at his best. His skills WERE effected, just not to the point that he was easily beaten.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The argument isn't whether he was emotional or not.. the argument has ALWAYS been that whether he was or wasn't KENOBI ALSO WAS and it didn't EFFECT his fighting ability.

Again, some people are better at not letting their emotions effect them than others.

To give a non-Star Wars example, take Duncan MacLeod (Highlander). Sometimes he's fought Immortals who've killed people he loved. Clearly he's going to feel a sense of anger that he doesn't feel towards other opponents who haven't wronged him to the same degree. But because he has strong mental discipline he doesn't let those feelings affect him.

Kenobi has that kind of discipline. Anakin didn't.

hmmm... one valid point, there is also an "In teh zone" Kenobi. Is this him?

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm... one valid point, there is also an "In teh zone" Kenobi. Is this him?

Is there?

Kenobi was lucid while using the Dark Side? When?

And... wtf IS up with your avatar. Damn twisted Canadian! lol

Kenobi was in teh zone when he dueed griveous, he became an "avatar of the force" iirc

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And... wtf IS up with your avatar. Damn twisted Canadian! lol Most awesome video-game villain ever, that's what.

Originally posted by mattatom
Kenobi was in teh zone when he dueed griveous, he became an "avatar of the force" iirc That's true, it was his "one with the Force" Jacen moment. Not like Anakin's Fury-induced Chosen One moment, but Zoney nonetheless.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Most awesome video-game villain ever, that's what.
Is it Jack of Blades?

Regardless, Jack of Blades >>>>>>> Lord Lucien.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Most awesome video-game villain ever, that's what.

Geoffrey the Giraffe from Toys "R" Us?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

That's true, it was his "one with the Force" Jacen moment. Not like Anakin's Fury-induced Chosen One moment, but Zoney nonetheless.

He wasn't Fury-induced, but he was every bit as untouchable. He wasn't even moving himself, the force was moving him according to the novelization.

I'd love to see Avatar Kenobi go up against Zonakin. That'd be super sweet.

Originally posted by ares834
Is it Jack of Blades?

Regardless, Jack of Blades >>>>>>> Lord Lucien. Yes. And that is true. Oh, so very... very true. He was an awful end boss.

The end boss was the giant shard. The rest is just part of the thirty minute plot the developer included to distract the ratings board from the real game: Orgy Hero.

Obi-Wan during the fight played on Anakin's now Vader's emotions. In a way he played a psychological warfare type battle. While Vader viciously assaulted him, Obi-Wan lured him into areas where he could control the fight. Vader's bloodlust and arrogance cost him the fact. He may have been stronger in the Force, but when not in control . . . he always would lose the fight. Palpatine even stated "I sense Lord Vader is in danger" - he could have been implying that Anakin had gone insane for a few moments.

I think the real question here is whether being stong in the force will over-come knowledge of the force. Its a debateable topic. As for me I think they are equalizers, 50-50 shot.

Turning to the dark side does not give you more power, it just makes it easier to access and control. It doesnt increase your knowledge, just knowledge of the darkside.

That being said I think a fight between OB1 and Anakin would be equal. If they fought 10 times, each would split wins. Remember in that fight Anakin was pushing the action. OB1 eventually found himself in an advantagious position and Anakins arogance allowed OB1 to strike. In a different place Anakin would have landed a fatal blow.

Originally posted by CaedusRules
I think the real question here is whether being stong in the force will over-come knowledge of the force. Its a debateable topic. As for me I think they are equalizers, 50-50 shot.

Turning to the dark side does not give you more power, it just makes it easier to access and control. It doesnt increase your knowledge, just knowledge of the darkside.

That being said I think a fight between OB1 and Anakin would be equal. If they fought 10 times, each would split wins. Remember in that fight Anakin was pushing the action. OB1 eventually found himself in an advantagious position and Anakins arogance allowed OB1 to strike. In a different place Anakin would have landed a fatal blow.

Well a fight is a complex thing with lots of different factors and variables to take into account.

Power, knowledge, blade skills, location the fight's taking place in, environmental hazards, what's going through the fighters minds and hearts, etc. All of these can have an influence. A seemingly 'weaker' foe can defeat a stronger one under the right circumstances.

Like you say, Kenobi used the environment to his advantage. Would things have been different if they'd fought in a big grassy meadow? Very probably yes.

You have a point chilled monkey. As an analogy, even a last place team in MLB can beat the Yankees if the team are having a horrible day. Vader in an open field could have controlled the entire fight and defeated Kenobi, but stranger things have happened. As a fan of UFC, I've watched fights like Griffin vs Silva (which should have been an easy victory for Griffin) go the other way.

The dark side does not enhance power as CaedusRules stated. But Vader was by far more powerful than Kenobi in the Force. Kenobi used his absolute mastery of Soresu and the psyhcological game to win. We'll never know for certain.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
You have a point chilled monkey. As an analogy, even a last place team in MLB can beat the Yankees if the team are having a horrible day. Vader in an open field could have controlled the entire fight and defeated Kenobi, but stranger things have happened. As a fan of UFC, I've watched fights like Griffin vs Silva (which should have been an easy victory for Griffin) go the other way.
.
Wait, where did you get the idea that Kenobi beating skywalker was an upset?

Kenobi OWNED skywalker, it wasn't close, the novelization makes that clear.

Where does the novel make that clear?

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
You have a point chilled monkey. As an analogy, even a last place team in MLB can beat the Yankees if the team are having a horrible day. Vader in an open field could have controlled the entire fight and defeated Kenobi, but stranger things have happened. As a fan of UFC, I've watched fights like Griffin vs Silva (which should have been an easy victory for Griffin) go the other way.

The dark side does not enhance power as CaedusRules stated. But Vader was by far more powerful than Kenobi in the Force. Kenobi used his absolute mastery of Soresu and the psyhcological game to win. We'll never know for certain.

You talking about Anderson Silva, dude? If so, you're sadly mistaken to think that Griffin was favored in that fight. I don't know if I've EVER heard such a goofy ass statement like that. Wow! Do you actually WATCH mma?

Originally posted by ares834
Where does the novel make that clear?

In the part about the fight between Kenobi and Anakin.

Originally posted by truejedi
In the part about the fight between Kenobi and Anakin.

hysterical

Indeed!!

Originally posted by truejedi
Wait, where did you get the idea that Kenobi beating skywalker was an upset?

Kenobi OWNED skywalker, it wasn't close, the novelization makes that clear. Huh? Where did the novel make this clear at? I must have missed it. Even if it did, it would flat out contradict what we see on film.

Sorry, but being forced on the defensive for the majority of a fight to where the only advantage you can gain over your opponent is gaining the high ground, is NOT owning your opponent.

Obi Wan was getting kicked around and choked up. He was recieving more hits than he gave. True, Obi Wan was putting up a very good fight against someone who was far stronger than he was, but Anakin was still getting the best of him up until he was able to gain high ground.

Originally posted by truejedi
In the part about the fight between Kenobi and Anakin.
You mean when Kenobi used a "desperation move" in an attempt to do "Anything to distract him (Anakin); anything to slow him down" a move I must say was completley uneffective and Anakin "easily" deflected. Or how about how he was sent flying by Anakin's force push. Or how he was unable to kill an unarmed Anakin due to his sheer strength. Or how about when Obi-Wan thought "Oh, this is bad.

i've argued it before. Go to the vs. forum and read the anakin vs. kenobi rematch threads. it is difficult to avoid how completely kenobi was in control.

Gaining the high ground in any fight (including land warfare) gives a huge advantage over your opponent. For example from the American Civil War, the 20th Maine was understrength unit and was assaulted by a superior force of 2,000 crack Confederate troops led by Gen. McLaws (one of the best commanders in the Civil War). The 20th Maine on Little Round Top held the position despite repeated attacks and killed more than 900 rebels. That was one of many small engagements at the Battle of Gettysburg which saved the Union.

Kenobi may have been getting his ass kicked, but Soresu and playing on Anakin/Vader's emotions turned the fight in Kenobi's favor. Psychological warfare in certain ways is more powerful than brute force. That's what caused us to lose the Vietnam War. As I stated before, Anakin/Vader was stronger than Kenobi - the kid was stated to be 80% of Sidious's power, but he lost to Kenobi? That has to mean something about Kenobi's fighting abilities. It seems that many on here ignore the fighting abilities of Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan's been underrated on this forum for as long as I can remember.

I'll always laugh at that one thread where everyone was saying that RotS Kenobi would either outright lose or barely win against Maul. -sighs-

Originally posted by truejedi
i've argued it before. Go to the vs. forum and read the anakin vs. kenobi rematch threads. it is difficult to avoid how completely kenobi was in control. Originally posted by truejedi
Wait, where did you get the idea that Kenobi beating skywalker was an upset?

Kenobi OWNED skywalker, it wasn't close, the novelization makes that clear. I wouldn't deny that Obi-Wan was the one who was maneuvering the direction of the fight, but that fact is not enough to describe his victory over Vader as "ownage". Sorry, forgot the capitals--"OWNAGE".

Both the novel and the film detail the scene where he was almost decapitated by Vader (who in the novel was disarmed but was fast enough to move in and pin Kenobi to the wall and bend his wrists back). The film (higher canon) also includes him being strangled. Immediately before this scene, the novel describes:

"Consoles ripped free of their moorings and hurtled through the air. Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.
Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him, anything to slow them down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back..."

And then:

"A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back in to a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill."

That's when we transition in to the scene with Vader almost choking out Obi-Wan. Oh, and the line immediately preceding that last one, describes Obi-Wan "parrying madly". Not "casually" or "with ease".

Even after Obi-Wan's catharsis, where he "let it all go", there was nothing remotely close to "ownage". He outwitted Anakin for a moment when they were swinging on the cables--but Anakin "caught on to the game" and foiled Obi-Wan's plan of cutting him loose. And the lava-fall scene isn't described as part of Kenobi's plan--he realized almost too late where they were headed, and a swift kick knocked Anakin away while he (Kenobi) escaped.



I just read the entire fight (for what feels like the tenth time recently) and nowhere does it describe anything akin to "ownage". Kenobi did not "own" him, "kick his ass", "outsmarted him the entire time"... no, his trick with Anakin's mechanical hand almost got him suffocated/decapitated. Where Kenobi really scored big, was when he "suckered" Anakin by getting past him on to the lava river's shore.

I rescind any comment I've made in the past about Obi-Wan's supposed out-witting of Anakin. At least in the context of the whole duel. He maneuvered them through the facility because he "gave ground. It was his way." Not because he had some master plan, or some ace up his sleeve. His trick with Anakin's hand was even described as his "last" trick.

No, Anakin was surviving quite well, despite Obi-Wan's impregnable defenses and his superior experience. It was that last-ditch dive Kenobi made and Anakin's subsequent "Oh, Yeah!" blunder that lost him the fight. Not Kenobi's brilliance or superior skills.

There was no "owna--", sorry-- "OWNAGE". There was simply a victory. And a close one at that. Imagine if Anakin had been in a more temperate mental... zoney state. There would have been ownage, but not for Kenobi.

proof that ANakin in a different mind-set would have done a better job against Kenobi? Using his anger and hatred actually strengthens a darkside user.

And Yes, I'm completely aware of the all the text you just ommitted in forming your one-sided argument.

In fact, i'm going to try out my newest debate tactic. No offense intended actually.


If you disagree with me on this point, you are unreasonable, and obviously an Anakin fanboy. You are not worth responding too, and I will not waste time doing so. But you are wrong, and anyone reasonable can clearly see so, though none of you hat disagree with me ARE reasonable.

Clear?

lololololol. : )

Originally posted by truejedi
proof that ANakin in a different mind-set would have done a better job against Kenobi? Using his anger and hatred actually strengthens a darkside user.Doesn't mean his mental (like his brain, not the Force) abilities are strengthened. I'd like to see Anakin with a clear head and the Dark Side.

Originally posted by truejedi
And Yes, I'm completely aware of the all the text you just ommitted in forming your one-sided argument. You're second post is confusing, and throws this one in to doubt, but I'll say this anyway... care to provide the text?

In the novel, didn't Sidious mention to Anakin something about meeting him at a cool calm peak of the force or something like that?

I haven't read the novel in years.

Speaking of Sidious, my re-read of the end of the duel confirmed that Sidious did indeed arrive right as Vader caught on fire. The guy moves quick.

LL, go to the battle bar,read the link blaxican posted, and you will understand my new debate method.

Oh right, Ush's patented foolproof, highly logical, incontrovertible, factual argument.

The guy's a champ.

Foreigners should not be trusted to run this forum.

Originally posted by truejedi
proof that ANakin in a different mind-set would have done a better job against Kenobi?

Common sense. Anyone with a clear, focused head will do better than when they don't have focus.

If you really need 'proof' just look at how Anakin defeats Dooku in RotS.

Originally posted by truejedi
Using his anger and hatred actually strengthens a darkside user.

And your point is... What exactly?

Strengthening a darksider doesn't mean it gives them a clear head.

Like I said before there's a difference between focusing one's anger and hatred and letting them consume oneself.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Common sense. Anyone with a clear, focused head will do better than when they don't have focus.


Source for that bold generality? First, I will say: That isn't common sense at all: Look at Luke in ROTJ. Look at any professional athlete: IF you are playing tennis and start thinking about the swing, rather than let instinct take over, you will fail.

So: I have provided an alternative to your "common sense". Since my definition of "common sense" is just as valid as yours, then you must come up with a canon quote to support your claim, or else drop the argument:

Right now you are coming across a lot like: "I am right, and I know I am, but I can't prove it, so i'm just going to say that ANYBODY with common sense KNOWS i'm right."

Sorry Ush, but that doesn't work in this forum.



Just read the fight, didn't see any quotes to support your argument? Care to provide them?

Originally posted by truejedi


Source for that bold generality? First, I will say: That isn't common sense at all: Look at Luke in ROTJ. Look at any professional athlete: IF you are playing tennis and start thinking about the swing, rather than let instinct take over, you will fail.

So: I have provided an alternative to your "common sense". Since my definition of "common sense" is just as valid as yours, then you must come up with a canon quote to support your claim, or else drop the argument:

Right now you are coming across a lot like: "I am right, and I know I am, but I can't prove it, so i'm just going to say that ANYBODY with common sense KNOWS i'm right."

Sorry Ush, but that doesn't work in this forum.



Just read the fight, didn't see any quotes to support your argument? Care to provide them?

In a combat scenerio he is correct TJ. Focus is key.

Lol, However, there are no canon quotes I know of. Perhaps there's something somewhere that one of our other members can find/dig up. And damnit, if there isn't one, there should be.

Originally posted by truejedi


Source for that bold generality? First, I will say: That isn't common sense at all: Look at Luke in ROTJ. Look at any professional athlete: IF you are playing tennis and start thinking about the swing, rather than let instinct take over, you will fail.


If you're playing tennis, and you've just killed younglings, have betrayed everyone you've ever loved and been betrayed in turn by the one you loved most, you will fail.

Do you play tennis TJ? If the answer is no, well then, how do you know what role instinct plays in a tennis match?

i do play tennis. and if I stop to think about what i'm doing, I fail. It has to be instinct. (ping pong is the same way, as is golf, basketball, fencing, ANY physical activity)

Seriously, try talking a child through tying your shoes. Look at how much harder it is. The less you think about WHAT you are doing in physical activity, the better it gets.

So: You say it is common sense that a clear head would improve performance. I disagree, I believe giving the mind something else to think about other than the activity at hand actually heightens the physical ability.

I even give a source: "The Inner Game of Tennis" By W. Timothy Gallwey, a tennis pro.

Can you give a source that backs up your viewpoint of "common sense"?

And obviously, since it is disputed, it isn't "common sense" anyway, unless you are deliberately trying to insult me, but anyone who has been on this forum for any duration of time knows I am not completely without sense, so you must try another tact.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Common sense. Anyone with a clear, focused head will do better than when they don't have focus.

If you really need 'proof' just look at how Anakin defeats Dooku in RotS. As Palpatine said to Anakin: I can feel your anger.... It gives you focus."

Not saying Anakin was fighting to his best against Kenobi, but Palpatine seemed to imply that, at least in Anakin's case, anger = focus. So if something was hindering him in that battle, it likely wasn't anger/rage/hate, etc.

TJ, first, there is a difference between thinking about what you're doing and having a clear head. Secondly, there is a difference between letting your instincts take over and being an emotional conflicted wreck. So all in all, what you're talking about and the battle between Anakin and Obi-Wan is just a bad comparison.

Edit: I feel the need to explain more clearly.

When you say that thinking about what you're doing makes you fail, this is true. But it is not the same as having a clear head. Obi-Wan didn't think about everything he did, he didn't think about every strike he blocks because he is trained enough for this and can just use his instincts (the Force). But he does have a clear head. So it is not the same.

As for the second, Anakin let his instincts take over during his fight with Dooku, but not in the same way as in the fight with Obi-Wan because he was like I said, an emotional conflicted wreck. So it is not the same.

Originally posted by truejedi
i do play tennis. and if I stop to think about what i'm doing, I fail. It has to be instinct. (ping pong is the same way, as is golf, basketball, fencing, ANY physical activity)

Seriously, try talking a child through tying your shoes. Look at how much harder it is. The less you think about WHAT you are doing in physical activity, the better it gets.

So: You say it is common sense that a clear head would improve performance. I disagree, I believe giving the mind something else to think about other than the activity at hand actually heightens the physical ability.

I even give a source: "The Inner Game of Tennis" By W. Timothy Gallwey, a tennis pro.

Can you give a source that backs up your viewpoint of "common sense"?

And obviously, since it is disputed, it isn't "common sense" anyway, unless you are deliberately trying to insult me, but anyone who has been on this forum for any duration of time knows I am not completely without sense, so you must try another tact.

Just because something is disputed, doesn't necessarily dictate that it isn't common sense. Hell, some claim that the holocaust and moon landing never happened, however common sense says otherwise. Moreover, focus doesn't neccesarily mean that one has to think of every detail of every maneuver. However, it does require that the user not let his/her mind wander. Also, if you're engaged in most any competitive activity (combat included) and allow yourself to be consumed by rage, you will eventually falter. Once again, focus doesn't mean that one has to shut out their instincts. I think you're misunderstanding the fundamentals of how focus plays a role here. Anakin most definitely was not focused in his battle w/ OB1, as was evident by his mental state (anguish, confusion, etc...), and one shouldn't need a canon quote to understand this.

Your entire argument is fundamentally flawed TJ.

I do not have an argument, I am asking for proof of YOUR claim.

Your claim is that Anakin was... I don't know, mentally handicapped or something during the mustafar duel?
Burden of proof clearly lies with YOU.

The fact that you continue to try to avoid giving ANY canonical proof begins to tell me that you HAVE NONE.

You are starting to come across like HWKA in that you want your idea of "common sense" to count as canon.

Provide evidence or drop the point, i'm starting to think you don't have a shred of proof to back up your claim, at least, you aren't providing it.

Originally posted by truejedi
I do not have an argument, I am asking for proof of YOUR claim.

Your claim is that Anakin was... I don't know, mentally handicapped or something during the mustafar duel?
Burden of proof clearly lies with YOU.

The fact that you continue to try to avoid giving ANY canonical proof begins to tell me that you HAVE NONE.

You are starting to come across like HWKA in that you want your idea of "common sense" to count as canon.

Provide evidence or drop the point, i'm starting to think you don't have a shred of proof to back up your claim, at least, you aren't providing it. Perhaps you could provide some evidence that Anakin was emotionally stable, evidence that proves he was thinking clearly--with a rational, steady mind. I have read every duel in that novel several times recently and there is A.) evidence to show that Anakin was of utmost clarity and level-headedness when he killed Dooku, and B.) absolutely no evidence to support he was of the same state when he lost to Kenobi.

There IS, however, visual and verbal evidence to support that his beliefs had been shaken to the core, he had betrayed everyone he knew, had been betrayed by the people closest to him, and was visibly (the famous tear scene) distraught with what he was doing as a result. The Tear scene was before his revelation that Padme and Kenobi had betrayed him. With that you add rage (his "nuclear fury" to the mix.


And don't. You. Dare try to write off that scene, with the cinematically notorious Single Tear, running down a face like that, as "nothing that conclusively proves Anakin was emotionally unbalanced." You will have officially joined the ranks of those "nuh-uh, no it doesn't, NO!" people the seniors here have come to shun/mock. Please, for our numbers' sake, don't drop your name from our mighty and illustrious club. There's obeying canon-providers and commentaries, and there's refusing to acknowledge what can only be described as F*cking Common Sense.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Perhaps you could provide some evidence that Anakin was emotionally stable, evidence that proves he was thinking clearly--with a rational, steady mind. I have read every duel in that novel several times recently and there is A.) evidence to show that Anakin was of utmost clarity and level-headedness when he killed Dooku, and B.) absolutely no evidence to support he was of the same state when he lost to Kenobi.


Are you asking me to prove a negative? "Provide proof that he wasn't..."

You are better than that.
Its your claim. You back it up. Just as there is nothing in the book to say he was clear-headed, there is nothing to say he was, either. And its your claim.

However, you admit in the next paragraph that you are of the opinion that you are correct, and THAT is wherein you base your argument, so I don't mind. I'll address that instead.


A single tear? THAT'S your compelling, inescapable, i'm a moron for disagreeing- visual evidence? Really LL? are you arguing from desperation here? Don't worry about it, I don't care who wins, I never have, I just like to examine all of the facts. Take a minute to do that. Its seems you want to be right more than you want to provide actual evidence.


And rage? Since when does rage make someone a worse fighter? Rage makes force-users stronger. Kenobi tapping the dark-side to put up a fight against Maul confirms this.






I really don't understand your use of extra periods here... however...
Its a single tear. Anakin just killed a lot of people, but he cried more than that after killing the sand-people in Episode 2. He cried more than that when raging against the Jedi "Holding him back!" in episode 2. You are trying to take a single tear and turn it into a gimped Anakin.

That doesn't work simply because EVERYTHING Anakin has just gone through, Kenobi has gone through more. He just had his entire order wiped out, his home destroyed, his brother turn on him, and now he is there to kill this same brother. No one is arguing that Kenobi is gimped in this fight, but every argument you are making for why it is "common sense" that Anakin isn't putting up a top-notch fight also applies to Kenobi.

(an aside, cause I just thought of it, your best evidence, that you should bring up is the "wrestling with the dragon" text from ROTS novelization. It is the closest thing you will get to confirming your theory with canon.)




Just stop. No one cares (or should care) about their "status" on KMC and its 40 weekly posts. This post makes you sound pompous. It is a stupid tactic to take. If you can't discuss star wars without making it personal, i pity you.

Now, how about a point by point rebuttal this time? Your idea of "common sense" and mine are obviously different. Bringing up holocaust deniers as an example of someone else ignoring common sense doesn't help you because we all DO call those people morons. So unless you are attempting to deliberately insult me, then respond to the argument, and not to the concept of someone being wrong simply because they are nonsensical. This is EXACTLY what everyone (including yourself) just called Ush out for doing.

Originally posted by truejedi
Are you asking me to prove a negative? "Provide proof that he wasn't..."

You are better than that.
Its your claim. You back it up. Just as there is nothing in the book to say he was clear-headed, there is nothing to say he was, either. And its your claim.You're right, there is no text that he was f*cked up. There is no text that he wasn't. So where is the basis of YOUR stance?


Originally posted by truejedi
A single tear? THAT'S your compelling, inescapable, i'm a moron for disagreeing- visual evidence? Really LL? are you arguing from desperation here? Don't worry about it, I don't care who wins, I never have, I just like to examine all of the facts. Take a minute to do that. Its seems you want to be right more than you want to provide actual evidence.Ditto.

My side (the grandest of the two--we have business cards) has A.) Anakin weeping, B.) delusions of grandeur, C.) irrational accusations, D.) telekinetic assault on the very pregnant love of his life for whom he has quite literally sacrificed all for and E.) a prolonged attempt to kill his best friend.

Those are the reasons why I think that Anakin was emotionally unstable, wrong in the head, unable to to think with a clear and rational mind, and unable to purge from his thoughts a driving rage which overcame all reason.

What do YOU have?


Originally posted by truejedi
And rage? Since when does rage make someone a worse fighter? Rage makes force-users stronger. Kenobi tapping the dark-side to put up a fight against Maul confirms this.Yes, and was promptly defeated.






Originally posted by truejedi
I really don't understand your use of extra periods here... however...
Its a single tear. Anakin just killed a lot of people, but he cried more than that after killing the sand-people in Episode 2. He cried more than that when raging against the Jedi "Holding him back!" in episode 2. You are trying to take a single tear and turn it into a gimped Anakin.No, I'm taking a scene filled with bombastically somber music, that moves from the death of the Republic, over corpses, and their killer's dark frame against a crimson and black backdrop. I'm taking that killer's disturbed, glaring, and weeping face and putting in to the context that is heavily implied.

How do YOU see it? Just another day in the park slaughtering people and forsaking my entire life and--damn all that smoke from the lava river is tearing me up something awful?


Originally posted by truejedi
That doesn't work simply because EVERYTHING Anakin has just gone through, Kenobi has gone through more. He just had his entire order wiped out, his home destroyed, his brother turn on him, and now he is there to kill this same brother. No one is arguing that Kenobi is gimped in this fight, but every argument you are making for why it is "common sense" that Anakin isn't putting up a top-notch fight also applies to Kenobi. Good for Obi-Wan, he's a stronger mind and better Jedi than Anakin. But we're talking about Anakin here, not Obi-Wan. I stubbed my toe and swore in German. My buddy stubbed his toe and sobbed like a little b*tch. Different people, different reactions, different strengths and weaknesses.

Originally posted by truejedi
(an aside, cause I just thought of it, your best evidence, that you should bring up is the "wrestling with the dragon" text from ROTS novelization. It is the closest thing you will get to confirming your theory with canon.)Thanks, sugar.




Originally posted by truejedi
Just stop. No one cares (or should care) about their "status" on KMC and its 40 weekly posts. This post makes you sound pompous. It is a stupid tactic to take. If you can't discuss star wars without making it personal, i pity you.This is why I love you TeeJ; you can't tell when someone's being frivolous.


Originally posted by truejedi
Now, how about a point by point rebuttal this time? Your idea of "common sense" and mine are obviously different. Bringing up holocaust deniers as an example of someone else ignoring common sense doesn't help you because we all DO call those people morons.

I'm genuinely confused at what you're trying to say here.

Originally posted by truejedi
So unless you are attempting to deliberately insult me, then respond to the argument, and not to the concept of someone being wrong simply because they are nonsensical. This is EXACTLY what everyone (including yourself) just called Ush out for doing. I... I, uh, have been responding. The entire time. With detailed descriptions from the film. Direct quotations from the novel. Analyses of what it says. That's not Ushing, that's arguing.

What I AM doing though, is confronting you on your skewered take on what's canon and what's bullshit. If Anakin's actions, words, and facial expressions (they exist, okay?) are the those of a clear-headed man who knows to think out and talk about everything that's been happening, before jumping to insane conclusions and attempting to kill your wife, unborn child, an best friend---then yes, you are absolutely right, and have been right the whole time.

If, however, you feel the above is the behaviour of a man who has f*cking lost it and can't tell friend from foe--to the point that killing his FriendFoe is all that drives him, then we are in agreement.

You can ask me to prove that Craig loves his wife all you want. And I'm just gonna keep telling you that he swallowed the hydrochloric acid to release her from the malevolent machinery. But nah, he really didn't like her.

Originally posted by truejedi
I do not have an argument, I am asking for proof of YOUR claim.


Well, you must understand that people may think you're actually making a counter-argument when you're trying to refute the evidence that people have been giving.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

My side (the grandest of the two--we have business cards) has A.) Anakin weeping, B.) delusions of grandeur, C.) irrational accusations, D.) telekinetic assault on the very pregnant love of his life for whom he has quite literally sacrificed all for and E.) a prolonged attempt to kill his best friend.

Those are the reasons why I think known that Anakin was emotionally unstable, wrong in the head, unable to to think with a clear and rational mind, and unable to purge from his thoughts a driving rage which overcame all reason.


Fixed.

Grammar Nazi fail. It's 'know' not 'known' Slash.

I have no idea what that 'n' is doing there. You hacked into my account and made that mistake yourself. Admit it!

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I have no idea what that 'n' is doing there. You hacked into my account and made that mistake yourself. Admit it! If i hacked your account, it wouldn't of been a mistake, it would of been an act of sabotage, you lose again good sir

Originally posted by mattatom
If i hacked your account, it wouldn't of been a mistake, it would of been an act of sabotage, you lose again good sir

So you now admit to have sabotaged my word.

Reported.





Also, when you are referring to yourself using the word I, it is always written with a capital i.

Originally posted by mattatom
If i hacked your account, it wouldn't have of been a mistake, it would haveof been an act of sabotage; you lose again good sir.

Fixed! You ALL fail!!! gunsmilie

Lucien I must and I rarely disagree with you. When Anakin slaughtered the Jedi in the Temple and the seperatists on Mustafar, he didn't automatically switch to the mentality "well, I'm a Sith Lord and I do this this and that that without question." The kid was confused in the tear scene and possibly thinking "what the hell am I doing? Am I doing the right thing?" It was only until his perceived Padme's betrayal when he lost it.

Nobody is in their proper state of mind when their girlfriend or wife dumps them. That may have been the true breaking point for him. When my ex-fiance cheated on me and I dumped her, I wasn't myself for 6 months. I suffered clinical depression. That was another reason why he lost control in my opinion - he was pissed and he had to take it out on someone and Obi-Wan just happened to be there. Or it was symbolic that in order to achieve Sith Lord status the apprentice must kill the Master and who was Anakin/Vader's first Master? Obi-Wan, but instead he lost due to his reckless and rageaholic fighting.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
...It was only until his perceived Padme's betrayal when he lost it.

Prove it!! Prove that he wasn't a mental train wreck before his perceived betrayal by Padme.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Lucien I must and I rarely disagree with you. When Anakin slaughtered the Jedi in the Temple and the seperatists on Mustafar, he didn't automatically switch to the mentality "well, I'm a Sith Lord and I do this this and that that without question." The kid was confused in the tear scene and possibly thinking "what the hell am I doing? Am I doing the right thing?" It was only until his perceived Padme's betrayal when he lost it.

Nobody is in their proper state of mind when their girlfriend or wife dumps them. That may have been the true breaking point for him. When my ex-fiance cheated on me and I dumped her, I wasn't myself for 6 months. I suffered clinical depression. That was another reason why he lost control in my opinion - he was pissed and he had to take it out on someone and Obi-Wan just happened to be there. Or it was symbolic that in order to achieve Sith Lord status the apprentice must kill the Master and who was Anakin/Vader's first Master? Obi-Wan, but instead he lost due to his reckless and rageaholic fighting. Yeah, I know. I've made mention of that fact several times now. It was the betrayal that added blinding rage to the mix. Deep seated confusion about your life, ideals, and actions are bad enough--and then uninhibited fury to further cloud his judgment. Seriously, did you even read the majority of my posts?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So you now admit to have sabotaged my word.

Reported.





Also, when you are referring to yourself using the word I, it is always written with a capital i. Actually I used the word 'if' therefore not admitting to it.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Fixed! You ALL fail!!! gunsmilie
Doesn't count. I'm a hypocrite.

Yes I do Lucien and you always make extremely valid points and great smart-ass jokes. Always lightens my mood when I'm pissed off.

Jinsoku Takai - before Anakin aided Sidious in taking out Windu, he was torn on what to do: "save" Padme or fufill his duty to the Jedi Order by killing the Sith Lord. He was conflicted torn and crying - even in Sid's office he was having trouble making up his mind.

Originally posted by truejedi


Source for that bold generality? First, I will say: That isn't common sense at all: Look at Luke in ROTJ. Look at any professional athlete: IF you are playing tennis and start thinking about the swing, rather than let instinct take over, you will fail.

Slash KMC has already explained this far more eloquently, but I'll toss this in anyway.

You are not making any sense. Having a clear head (perhaps it would be better to say a clear HEART) doesn't mean thinking about each move (indeed the very words "clear head" state that it ISN'T filled with thoughts); it just means you don't have something weighing on your mind, or you do but you're able to keep those thoughts/feelings from distracting you.

If you are playing tennis and you are having troubles with your significant other, then you won't do as well as if you were not.

So yes, that is common sense.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Slash KMC has already explained this far more eloquently, but I'll toss this in anyway.

You are not making any sense. Having a clear head (perhaps it would be better to say a clear HEART) doesn't mean thinking about each move (indeed the very words "clear head" state that it ISN'T filled with thoughts); it just means you don't have something weighing on your mind, or you do but you're able to keep those thoughts/feelings from distracting you.

If you are playing tennis and you are having troubles with your significant other, then you won't do as well as if you were not.

So yes, that is common sense.

Right on sub-zero monkey boy! Hell, just look at Tiger Woods... the (former) best in the world is now having great difficulty even qualifying for a large number of tournaments; All because of his trouble with his now former wife.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I see a lot people say that ROS Anakin was not in a good state of mind to fight Kenobi. Thus by that premise of people, they draw the conclusion that Kenobi couldn't have beat a Anakin in the right state of mind.. My issue is this... He knew he didn't kill his love.. He said very clearly he felt her alive when he released her. So it wasn't like he knew she was dead. Yes he had turned to the DS not that long before but he had already started down that path and I didn't see any narration that indicates he was debating about which side he wanted to be on. He committed himself to the darkside already. If he could kill Mace.. Kill young jedi's do you really think he was THAT torn about killing Kenobi? Even if I concede he was a little, certainly not enough to warrant this Anakin was mind f'd theory people keep talking about. He felt OB1 turned his love against him.. he had reason to get rid of him. He had NO issue getting rid of kids who did nothing to him. So please explain to me where i'm wrong here and how it's such a big mind f for Anakin that he could only fight in a horrible manner?

Lets look at the fight... General G is considered a very proficient duelist and has done VERY WELL against some acclaimed Jedi. He certainly has a higher per strike ratio than Anakin. Yet, OB1 methodically used his defense to find opening and cut arm after arm from The General. He beat him MUCH MUCH quicker than Anakin. Anakin he couldn't find such openings.. the fight went on HOW LONG? If he beat Anakin quickly.. sure we could say Anakin wasn't right.. However, that wasn't the case Anakin fought well and made Ob1 work very very hard. for the win. I saw no evidence that his skills were diminished in anyway.
technicly ob1 DID NOT defaet general g ,because he was walking over to finish ob1 when the dumb clones landed an destracted him then ob1 USED THE FORCE PULL AND SHOT HIM UNAWARE. OB is dead with out the force pull, note that ever mager battle ob1 has one he slyly used th force pull.think about starwars if darth maul had killed ob1 from th first battle
To go further and build on my first paragraph. If anybody was more conflicted it was Kenobi more so than Anakin. Kenobi didn't have the rage blinding him like Anakin did. He would have more reservations about killing Anakin than Anakin would have about killing kenobi for all the reasons listed above. So if anything Kenobi was more conflicted. Yet I keep seeing this imo unsubstantiated myth that Anakin was a total wreck and that is the reason why Kenobi won. Kenobi won because he was better that day. He knew Anakin in a out. He used Anakin over confidence against him. He didn't BEAT him cause Anakin's mind was a mess. If you believe this is the reason why he beat Anakin please address the points made above. If not, lets disspell this notion that Kenobi only won because Anakin was a mess.