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Wonderman, Namor, Captain Amerca, Iron Patriot, Iron Man, Wolverine, Spiderman, luke cage, Dr Strange , spider woman, ares, venom

can he win

If they have any brains they BFR his *ss.

no bfr the scenereo is just like the one in DC , he thinks they killed his family

Reed kills him as he's not his buddy Banner...

Current Strange won't be able to depower him, I think BA has a good shot at winning this.


Unless it's Gargan, Gargan the great thrashes the poor pointy-eared bastard.

The only real threat there is Strange, and the Marvels are pretty good against mages, fairly magic resistant. Everyone can, at best, buy a little time for Strange. BA should win.

Wolverine that is all.

Why does it have to be current strange? Hes pretty pathetic now with Bendis' character deconstruction. Sorcerer Supreme Strange should just depower him.

Originally posted by kgkg
Wolverine that is all.

and?

wolverine won't do shit to him, he doesn't have lame marvel brick durability

i know arrows peirced BA in WW3 , but BA's history has shown the guy to be impervious to high caliber bullets and be invunerable

BA clears the team & probably kills them all

Only Wolverine survive the pain BA will bring, and it's because BA wouldn't find a way to permanantly kill him.

Originally posted by ankur29
and?

wolverine won't do shit to him, he doesn't have lame marvel brick durability

i know arrows peirced BA in WW3 , but BA's history has shown the guy to be impervious to high caliber bullets and be invunerable
Kinda like Thor right? ohhh wait.

Strange can do it.

Captain Sonns his ass Followed by how America is much better then his shithole of a country.

Most of these people die within a minute of the bell sounding. Strange is the only real challenge.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Most of these people die within a minute of the bell sounding. Strange is the only real challenge. I count at least 5 who wouldn't die within a minute

Originally posted by Starscream M
I count at least 5 who wouldn't die within a minute
Name them.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Wonderman, Namor, Captain Amerca, Iron Man, Wolverine, Spiderman, Dr Strange, venom

Originally posted by Starscream M

Captain America? The shield might be durable but Black Adam could simply crush his body under it like a turtle caught under a semi-truck.

Spider-Man gets murdered.

Venom gets torn apart just like Carnage got torn apart by Sentry.

Iron Man would get torn up by a bloodlusted Black Adam.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Captain America? The shield might be durable but Black Adam could simply crush his body under it like a turtle caught under a semi-truck.

Spider-Man gets murdered.

Venom gets torn apart just like Carnage got torn apart by Sentry.

Iron Man would get torn up by a bloodlusted Black Adam. so everyone is just standing in line for BA to tear through them?

none of them have the skills that have kept them alive under far more dangerous situations?

Cap will survive a minute, he'll use his shield expertly to prevent BA from ever getting a clean hit

Spiderman will use spidersense to dodge BA and web his eyes

Iron Man can get a force field and repulsor blast that will buy him at least a minute

jeez, you really like to lowball marvel doncha?

Originally posted by Starscream M
so everyone is just standing in line for BA to tear through them?

none of them have the skills that have kept them alive under far more dangerous situations?

Cap will survive a minute, he'll use his shield expertly to prevent BA from ever getting a clean hit

Spiderman will use spidersense to dodge BA and web his eyes

Iron Man can get a force field and repulsor blast that will buy him at least a minute

jeez, you really like to lowball marvel doncha?

BA is super fast though, most of these guys (especially CA) would be statues. Spidey can only dodge dumb fast attacks (faster than bullet attacks that don't normally change directions). BA would punch through IM in less than a second. IM's force field or repulsor blast would only slow BA down a second or two.

Gargan is too much.

Ghost Rider can do it

They all die. BA doesn't know them.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
They all die. BA doesn't know them.



Originally posted by kgkg
Kinda like Thor right? ohhh wait.
BA has better showings against small area projectiles than thor

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/blackadam.jpg

BA is too fast for the team he gets rid of most them as easily as below, speedblitz

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_page00015dg1.jpg

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Only Wolverine survive the pain BA will bring, and it's because BA wouldn't find a way to permanantly kill him.

throw him into space

Originally posted by Starscream M
so everyone is just standing in line for BA to tear through them?

none of them have the skills that have kept them alive under far more dangerous situations?

Cap will survive a minute, he'll use his shield expertly to prevent BA from ever getting a clean hit

Spiderman will use spidersense to dodge BA and web his eyes

Iron Man can get a force field and repulsor blast that will buy him at least a minute

jeez, you really like to lowball marvel doncha?
BA doesn't need a clean hit. He just needs to crush Cap under his own shield.

Spider-Man webbing his eyes? Lol.

The repulsor blast won't do shit.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
BA doesn't need a clean hit. He just needs to crush Cap under his own shield.

Spider-Man webbing his eyes? Lol.

The repulsor blast won't do shit. hulk couldn't crush cap under his own shield...yet BA can?

stop your DC wankin!

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Captain America? The shield might be durable but Black Adam could simply crush his body under it like a turtle caught under a semi-truck.

Spider-Man gets murdered.

Venom gets torn apart just like Carnage got torn apart by Sentry.

Iron Man would get torn up by a bloodlusted Black Adam. Caps shields absorbs kinetic energy

BA won't crush Cap under his shield because of the above fact.

But still, let's not fool ourselves. Black Adam > The Green Goober. By a lot.

All of these fools, Wonderman and Namor included, get blitzed.

I can't imagine a scenario in which he takes on all of those people without other Marvel top tiers getting involved. The Hulks are running around, Blue Marvel, Nova Prime is spending more time here.

You just needed an excuse to mention Richard somehow, naughty boy.

:P

Who me? Now why on Earth would I do that?

Originally posted by Mindset
Caps shields absorbs kinetic energy
I'm not talking about BA punching the shield, I'm talking about putting Cap between a rock and a hard place (his shield) and pushing. Has anyone ever actually tried doing that?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm not talking about BA punching the shield, I'm talking about putting Cap between a rock and a hard place (his shield) and pushing. Has anyone ever actually tried doing that? Pretty sure a punch is a push.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm not talking about BA punching the shield, I'm talking about putting Cap between a rock and a hard place (his shield) and pushing. Has anyone ever actually tried doing that? yes you dodo...hulk has

Originally posted by Mindset
Pretty sure a punch is a push.
Not really.

Squeezing Cap between the ground and his shield isn't the same as punching it. Not even close.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not really.

Squeezing Cap between the ground and his shield isn't the same as punching it. Not even close. It's exactly the same.

Look it up.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not really.

Squeezing Cap between the ground and his shield isn't the same as punching it. Not even close. you clown...do you realize how much force is a punch from angry hulk?

it's upwards of hundreds of tons of force

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not really.

Squeezing Cap between the ground and his shield isn't the same as punching it. Not even close.

It's still kinetic energy. If BA or Hulk punches Cap's shield, Cap's arm shouldn't move from the impact. A push will be even less effective.

why does it matter? black adam is fast enuogh to rip CA's head shield or no shield

It doesn't matter. Adam beats this group easy.

Adam easily wins. Throw Thor in there to give the team 10 seconds of surviving.

Originally posted by ankur29
BA has better showings against small area projectiles than thor

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/blackadam.jpg
I was joking with Wolverine, but that scan was suppose to show Black Adam is has better showing against small projectile?

Logan has pierced things that bullets and sword can't.

Team.

Originally posted by ankur29
BA has better showings against small area projectiles than thor

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/blackadam.jpg


Hope you have something better than that.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Team.
Interesting. Why?

The only people here who even have a shot at harming BA are Wonderman, Namor, and Dr Strange. The rest are fodder.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Interesting. Why?

The only people here who even have a shot at harming BA are Wonderman, Namor, and Dr Strange. The rest are fodder. oh yeah...adamantium claws will just tickle BA

good god how hard must you wank this guy?!

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Interesting. Why?

The only people here who even have a shot at harming BA are Wonderman, Namor, and Dr Strange. The rest are fodder.

Because they have the necessary power to put him down. Namor and Wonder Man are sufficient enough to keep him occupied -depending on how hydrated Namor is and whether Wonder Man is treated as cannon fodder- while the rest of the team help take him down. Ares and Iron Man would also be useful help. Unfortunately for Adam, Strange won't be trying to physically attack him here.

A shot at harming him? They will cause him harm. Black Adam's durability and strength took a dive during that arc in my opinion. People keep mistaking his ruthlessness for power.

You can add Ares to that list by the way.

Ghost Rider

Originally posted by Starscream M
oh yeah...adamantium claws will just tickle BA

good god how hard must you wank this guy?!
Yeah because Black Adam will totally sit there and let Wolverine take a stab at him.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah because Black Adam will totally sit there and let Wolverine take a stab at him. no, but he will try to bullrush logan and get his eyes stabbed out in the process.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hope you have something better than that.

BA has always been Bulletproof,invunerable etc except for that ww3 arc

hwo do we know Wolverine will cut BA, does anyone think he will cut SM?

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Only Wolverine survive the pain BA will bring, and it's because BA wouldn't find a way to permanantly kill him.

throw him in the sun..........

Originally posted by kgkg
I was joking with Wolverine, but that scan was suppose to show Black Adam is has better showing against small projectile?

Logan has pierced things that bullets and sword can't.

but logan would not be able to pierce superman, captain marvel, or black adam because they are invulnerable and claws wouldn't break but logan would just be pushed backwards because the weakest thing would have to move.

ba would not budge because Logans not strong enough to move him...the claws wont break ba's skin and the claws themselves would not bend or break so they would either be pushed back into him or wolverine himself would be be punched back because that transfer of energy has to go somewhere.

hmm tough one but i think Bloodlusted BA could pull it off.
Spiderman,Captain America,Spiderwoman could all get killed in pretty much one hit seeing as BA wont hesistate to actually punch right through people. Wolverine is also pretty much a non-factor seeing as he cant even fly and could easily get chucked into orbit by the much stronger and much much faster black adam. Same goes for Luke cage. Venoms also a non-factor. That leaves the real threats here, Iron man, Iron patriot, Namor, Wonderman and dr strange.

Strange could likely figure out some way to depower Adam if given enuff time by Wonderman, Namor,Ares,Iron patriot, and iron man (certainly not immediately seeing as he isnt what he used to be) but i have some doubts as to how long those guys can contain a vengeful adam that thinks they have killed Isis or something similar

Logan is not cutting or hurting BA on his own, the same thing as he cannot hurt Colossus. Hes not strong enough. BA stomps this team the ONLY problem if hes not careful is Strange.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
but logan would not be able to pierce superman, captain marvel, or black adam because they are invulnerable and claws wouldn't break but logan would just be pushed backwards because the weakest thing would have to move.

ba would not budge because Logans not strong enough to move him...the claws wont break ba's skin and the claws themselves would not bend or break so they would either be pushed back into him or wolverine himself would be be punched back because that transfer of energy has to go somewhere. Logically yes..I agree but that's the thing Logan has Peirce things that similar durability to BA.

Anyway Wolverine won't be able to do much to BA either way.

Originally posted by kgkg
Logically yes..I agree but that's the thing Logan has Peirce things that similar durability to BA.

Anyway Wolverine won't be able to do much to BA either way.

well i guess i have to ask.....what in the world has he pierced that's invulnerable?

anyways a simple bfr to wolvie....in to the sun or a star or even just to space would work....because he can't fly back so he would just be stuck in space floating their and the sun or star would kill him.

Whats the point of Cap being here?

Current strange could probably beat Adam supposing everyone else fodders while he preps. The problem comes in if Adam has prior knowledge of Strange and takes him out first because regardless of Strange's power level he is one of the most dangerous characters in Marvel to give prep time to. By his nature he will magic shenanigan you to a horrible horrible death if you give him the prep time to cast spells and call on high level demons and gods.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
but logan would not be able to pierce superman, captain marvel, or black adam because they are invulnerable and claws wouldn't break but logan would just be pushed backwards because the weakest thing would have to move.

ba would not budge because Logans not strong enough to move him...the claws wont break ba's skin and the claws themselves would not bend or break so they would either be pushed back into him or wolverine himself would be be punched back because that transfer of energy has to go somewhere.



co signed

Originally posted by ankur29
BA has always been Bulletproof,invunerable etc except for that ww3 arc

hwo do we know Wolverine will cut BA, does anyone think he will cut SM?

Are we not discussing World War 3 Black Adam? His invulnerability clearly took a dive as well as his strength. Martian Manhunters heat vision melted half his face off, he was extremely bruised from fighting some cannon fodder and an arrow even went all the way through his arm. Albeit the archer was later revealed to be mystical in nature but I haven't seen anything that shows his regular arrows having some mystical enchantment that allows them to penetrate beings/objects. The opposite in fact.

Make this an underwater slug fest and I give to Namor 6-7/10. At least a higher end one.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
well i guess i have to ask.....what in the world has he pierced that's invulnerable?

anyways a simple bfr to wolvie....in to the sun or a star or even just to space would work....because he can't fly back so he would just be stuck in space floating their and the sun or star would kill him. Count nefaria and thor, he can most likely cut colossus too as colossus once said he'd be cut to the bones by a swing from the claws. He'd cut BA, SM and CM, just not very seriously. They'd be superficial cuts. He torn the thing's face right off for christ's sake adn he never ahd any trouble cuting up the hulk.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
well i guess i have to ask.....what in the world has he pierced that's invulnerable?

anyways a simple bfr to wolvie....in to the sun or a star or even just to space would work....because he can't fly back so he would just be stuck in space floating their and the sun or star would kill him. None of the people you mentioned are invulnerable.

Honestly? I wouldn't be surprised if current Wolverine would be able to cut Black Adam but it would be superficial damage. Akin to what he did to Thor except he'd have less an effect on Black Adam. At least Black Adam other than his World War 3 appearance. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was able to carve up this Adam similar to what he did to Nefaria.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Are we not discussing World War 3 Black Adam? His invulnerability clearly took a dive as well as his strength. Martian Manhunters heat vision melted half his face off, he was extremely bruised from fighting some cannon fodder and an arrow even went all the way through his arm. Albeit the archer was later revealed to be mystical in nature but I haven't seen anything that shows his regular arrows having some mystical enchantment that allows them to penetrate beings/objects. The opposite in fact.

Make this an underwater slug fest and I give to Namor 6-7/10. At least a higher end one.


there were a lot of tie in arcs with that , i don't know myself but did that damage follow thourgh in any on them?

BA is still SM tier in every category that incident that made BA look poor was like when Herc knocked WWH down and he was bleeding in one comic and not in the other, inconsistency imo

beside CM,BA have taken things like heat vison in the past with no damage at all, that 'one' incident in WW3 should not reflect what BA's entire career has shown , they had to nake him look vunerable so i think the arist went with that


http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/ankur2113/th_04.jpg

after ww3 here you can see unleashed PG HV only burns his hair after he has split his power liek 4 ways

You don't seem to understand that I don't give a shit what Black Adam has done in other instances. I'm talking about specifically the World War 3 incarnation. He might be hard to kill -field in head scene- but his invulnerability took a dive down. His strength took a bit of a dive as well.

Martian Manhunter is uber and barring PIS he would slap BA around.



Deal with it.

Originally posted by Bentley
Martian Manhunter is uber and barring PIS he would slap BA around.



Deal with it. no

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
no

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb6/Enteithegreat/Ultron/Meme/Ultronjoke5.jpg

All I've learned here is that Black adam wins, and that Wonderman breaks Ultron.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
All I've learned here is that Black adam wins, and that Wonderman breaks Ultron.


Not every Ultron (yeah, I'm not going to even deny how uber Wonderman is)

Strange handles him while Simon, Namor, Iron Man, and Ares keep him busy.

BA dies

Originally posted by Mindset
None of the people you mentioned are invulnerable.

?

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
? Do you know what invulnerable means?

Fact of the matter is this- WW3 Black Adam was a near Superman equivalent unleashed.

However this is the arc that began "Final Crisis", and Black Adam was slowly being stripped of his power as the New gods' began their conquering of Earth.

The mentioning of another voice, later- another god, and eventually near or during Final Crisis, maybe in the mini Adam said something about his gods being 'so far away', or something to the effect.

It's not unreasonable to believe he not only was weaker from constant battle, but from his god's almost literally being taken from him.

And he was still a monster, and absolute nightmare to fight.

But it does explain the drop in his normally cool and calculated demeanor to that of a raging bull, as well as the evident drop in invulnerability all the way through Final Crisis.

Originally posted by tkitna
Strange handles him while Simon, Namor, Iron Man, and Ares keep him busy.

BA dies Not unless he can summon the lightning. Even Dr Fate can't do that alone. Iron man is just a man wearing metal to a guy like Black Adam. The other three... tough guys, but keep a raging Black Adam at bay? The crew he was fighting had multiple green lanterns, martian manhunter, Steel powergirl, jakeem thunder and dozens of others on hand.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not unless he can summon the lightning. Even Dr Fate can't do that alone. Iron man is just a man wearing metal to a guy like Black Adam. The other three... tough guys, but keep a raging Black Adam at bay? The crew he was fighting had multiple green lanterns, martian manhunter, Steel powergirl, jakeem thunder and dozens of others on hand. Actualy dr strange can straight up overpower him. He can literally rip his soul from his body, only a blitz would give BA the edge over him.

Originally posted by 753
Actualy dr strange can straight up overpower him. He can literally rip his soul from his body, only a blitz would give BA the edge over him. Doubtful. Magic used directly on any of the Marvel family is pretty much useless. Like running through the rain.

Originally posted by Mindset
Do you know what invulnerable means? indeed i do....in fact if i could have any power it would be that.

and if your argument is "they are not invulnerable because they can be hurt" then i agree and dis agree

i agree in the fact that would not be truly invulnerable but i dis-agree with your statement because every super powered being in comics has a weakness and can be hurt so by comic book standards even the "invulnerable's" can be hurt somehow.

superman K-Night and magic

cm and ba by powerful magics.....

Originally posted by Juntai
Doubtful. Magic used directly on any of the Marvel family is pretty much useless. Like running through the rain. I'm aware of their level of immunity. Strange could still do it. Classic strange would stomp BA or CM.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
indeed i do....in fact if i could have any power it would be that.

and if your argument is "they are not invulnerable because they can be hurt" then i agree and dis agree

i agree in the fact that would not be truly invulnerable but i dis-agree with your statement because every super powered being in comics has a weakness and can be hurt so by comic book standards even the "invulnerable's" can be hurt somehow.

superman K-Night and magic

cm and ba by powerful magics..... They're all just tough. Juggernaut has a better claim at 'invulnerability' in the below trans power level. And the marvel brothers are more invulnerable than SM, that's for sure.

Originally posted by 753
I'm aware of their level of immunity. Strange could still do it. Classic strange would stomp BA or CM.
I thought Strange currently sucked. Has he been on the road to recovery recently?

Lol at how long this thread is while anyone with half brain could tell BA will blitz and murder the entire team within seconds

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I thought Strange currently sucked. Has he been on the road to recovery recently? No, he's more pathetic than ever. I thought the OP meant non-classic, but non-pathetic Strange. Back when he was still sorcerer Supreme, but his feats and spells had already been scaled down. The current version is just sad, he'd be easily crushed.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not unless he can summon the lightning. Even Dr Fate can't do that alone. Iron man is just a man wearing metal to a guy like Black Adam. The other three... tough guys, but keep a raging Black Adam at bay? The crew he was fighting had multiple green lanterns, martian manhunter, Steel powergirl, jakeem thunder and dozens of others on hand.

Eh, I'll be realistic and admit that Strange has been a chump for awhile now. I guess I just always use the version i'm most accustomed too. Oh well.

Iron Man should be more versatile than he is and be able to hang with such characters for awhile, but I look at what Thor and Sentry did to him and I have to admit your right there too. BA would destroy him, but with the aid of Simon, Namor, Aes, etc,,,he should be able to do something.

As for keeping Adam at bay, I would think it would be time enough for a non-jobbing Strange to come up with something, but Strange has jobbed for so long now, it might be pointless.

The characters you listed that BA handled in the joke of an arc WW3 are impressive, but we both know they all jobbed for the stories sake. Adam would never beat that list in a forum battle (nor should he have in the actual book). WW3 was just silly.

I was fine with World War 3. The comic outright stated that he was facing a team that had members that were stronger -this part is actually a pretty bad statement regarding Adam's strength if you think about it- faster and more powerful than him. He simply fought to kill and shit. The Green Lanterns did somehwat job. They tried to take him on physically. Without any shields. The same goes for Doctor Light.

The physically most powerful opponent he took on while fighting a team would probably be Power Girl or Atom Smasher. John watched for almost the entire time.

World War 3 Black Adam is so horribly overrated.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
indeed i do....in fact if i could have any power it would be that.

and if your argument is "they are not invulnerable because they can be hurt" then i agree and dis agree

i agree in the fact that would not be truly invulnerable but i dis-agree with your statement because every super powered being in comics has a weakness and can be hurt so by comic book standards even the "invulnerable's" can be hurt somehow.

superman K-Night and magic

cm and ba by powerful magics..... Then you should stop calling them invulnerable, they are extremely durable, that is all.

Supes, CM, and BA can and have been hurt by physical means that were not their weakness.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I was fine with World War 3. The comic outright stated that he was facing a team that had members that were stronger -this part is actually a pretty bad statement regarding Adam's strength if you think about it- faster and more powerful than him. He simply fought to kill and shit. The Green Lanterns did somehwat job. They tried to take him on physically. Without any shields. The same goes for Doctor Light.

The physically most powerful opponent he took on while fighting a team would probably be Power Girl or Atom Smasher. John watched for almost the entire time.

World War 3 Black Adam is so horribly overrated.

He go dog piled by the all the JSA members when he fought Dr. Fate and Hourman Android, though. Dr. Fate stated his magic wasn't enough to harm BA.

Originally posted by 753
They're all just tough. Juggernaut has a better claim at 'invulnerability' in the below trans power level. And the marvel brothers are more invulnerable than SM, that's for sure.

but even juggernaut can be hurt if a "higher power" does the hitting....


Originally posted by Mindset
Then you should stop calling them invulnerable, they are extremely durable, that is all.

Supes, CM, and BA can and have been hurt by physical means that were not their weakness.

alright but that only means that there's really nobody that's invulnerable per say because even juggernaut being "invulnerable" as pointed out above can be hurt if someone is more powerful then Cyttork.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
But even juggernaut can be hurt if a "higher power" does the hitting....
that's my point. They're all just tough. Although some of them like juggernaut and the marvel family are also almost impossible to kill and regenerate from anything.

Originally posted by 753
No, he's more pathetic than ever. I thought the OP meant non-classic, but non-pathetic Strange. Back when he was still sorcerer Supreme, but his feats and spells had already been scaled down. The current version is just sad, he'd be easily crushed.
Unless otherwise stated its the current version.

Originally posted by 753
that's my point. They're all just tough. Although some of them like juggernaut and the marvel family are also almost impossible to kill and regenerate from anything.

but that's also my point....that's what "invulnerable" in the comics basically is...if someone is stated to be "invulnerable" then you can almost guarantee that they can still be hurt by something or the other and the cause of that is because they have to be beatable or their would be no point in comics anymore.

Marvel team holds their own for a while but a bloodlusted Black Adam? He's equivalent to these guys going against Sentry, Glads or Supreme.

There is no way you avoid some fatalities here, and Wonderman, Spiderman, Cage, Spiderwoman, Venom, Iron Man and Captain America are likely to get taken out attempting to spar with Adams levels of Magically granted Strength, Invulnerability, and Speed.

However if there is any type of stalemate to occur here, Dr. Strange would obviously be a huge factor.