Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Tomi Shishidio from Marvel Comics

Vs

Kakashi Hatake from Naruto

Who wins?

Kakashi... easily. Dude is way too fast.

Kakashi packs some mean time/space warping abilities, I think that he can put them to use fast enough to evade any stone stare.

PG PMed this to me:

Even pre-sharingan Kakashi circa the Gaiden could likely outright blitzed Gorgon.

Since I know nothing about Gorgon and only a little about Kakashi I'm sitting this one out.

Kakashi only loses if he says he is going to kill you.

If he keeps his mouth shut he wins!

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Kakashi only loses if he says he is going to kill you.

If he keeps his mouth shut he wins!
So he's like Apocalypse? The more he gloats the weaker he becomes?

As soon as Apocalypse is in a comic he becomes weaker, in bios he's uber.

Originally posted by Bentley
As soon as Apocalypse is in a comic he becomes weaker, in bios he's uber.
Animated series always make him seem pretty uber as well.

Kakashi stomps. This fight is over before it even starts. Even if Gorgon get's the chance to remove his shades, the only result will be him turning a Shadow Clone into stone... creating clones to test the enemies abilities is Kakashi's MO.

ok we've seen kakashi's side. someone should post some of gorgons feats now

If Skrank agrees Gorgon is losing.....

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
ok we've seen kakashi's side. someone should post some of gorgons feats now
I'm worried this might be a dud. I don't think I've ever heard of a Gorgon fanboy. Or even a dedicated supporter.

aweweep

not saying this is; but why are all the best matchups between obscure or undersupported chars?

Ya if Srank is arguing for Gorgon losing I don't think anyone will side with Gorgon on this one.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
not saying this is; but why are all the best matchups between obscure or undersupported chars? this is true. I've seen a lot of good/interesting matches get suggested but they never make it to the vote due to lack of popularity.

Well, I'm mostly know for making threads about obscure characters anyways.

If Kakashi doesn't think to use a clone, he could be turned to stone, but overall, yea, Kakashi.

Gorgon's got telepathy and better-than-Wolverine speed iirc, as well as being highly skilled and having the stone vision thing, but all the lightning is likely to give him a problem in melee.

Wouldn't telepathy give the clones away?

Cool then can we skip this and move onto the Shikamaru vs Robin thread.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Cool then can we skip this and move onto the Shikamaru vs Robin thread. lol and seconded. Though, was that Robin thread voted for? nice try, mofo sneer

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Cool then can we skip this and move onto the Shikamaru vs Robin thread.
Honestly I think we need to broaden our horizons beyond just the Big Three of Anime/Manga.

movie and television character's need some run.

EDIT: Dang, Bleach vs. WW is closed now... i bet that ouchebagday adabay had something to do with it.

We did a Starwars thread and I've been insisting on Rurouni Kenshin and Full Metal Alchemist for a few weeks now. A Harry Potter thread maybe? We make spite threads 70% of the time anyways.

Originally posted by marwash22
movie and television character's need some run.
And I'd like to see threads with teams that mix comic and non-comic characters.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
And I'd like to see threads with teams that mix comic and non-comic characters. I wasn't aware we could do that.

Originally posted by marwash22
I wasn't aware we could do that.
Why not?

Just for instance you could do Samurai Jack vs Afro Samurai and Silver Samurai

Buffy, Angel, and Spike Vs. Batman, Nightwing, and Robin is my choice.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Why not?

Just for instance you could do Samurai Jack vs Afro Samurai and Silver Samurai well that opens the door for interesting pairings and matches.

You should post that this sort of thing is a possibility; because based on the fact that no one has suggested a mixed team match, i don't think people knew it was.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Buffy, Angel, and Spike Vs. Batman, Nightwing, and Robin is my choice.
We should take this convo to the Nominations thread.

since gorgon is dead, send in karate kid

trust me, he dies this day

Send in Mandarin. I had proposed it after I realized Gorgon might not be up to par, but it got drowned by DBZ talk. And that would be a better fight IMO.

I figured Battlehammer (or whatever his name is now) might at least have an opinion.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Why not?

Just for instance you could do Samurai Jack vs Afro Samurai and Silver Samurai
Jack would stomp, by the way.

Kakashi wins.

Gorgon was able to react to Yo-Yo, but honestly Kakashi is just too fast. Even during the Gaiden when he was in his early teens, Kakshi was able to kill close to a dozen Kage Bunshin spread out over an area about the size of a foot ball field, all on different levels, seemingly at the same time... and that was before he got his Sharingan. Now, he is much faster than that, allegedly fast enough to cut through a lightning bolt with an ability that requires both hand seals and some limited charge times. He's too fast for Gorgon, and too fast for the Mandarin.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Jack would stomp, by the way.

Kakashi wins.

Jack got beat down by a break dancing DJ.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Jack got beat down by a break dancing DJ.
Haven't you ever seen Zoolander? Break dance fighting is the most dangerous martial art ever.

Originally posted by Bentley
Wouldn't telepathy give the clones away?

Hm, point, it might. Though the clones are still threats- the lightning ones especially since stabbing them will shock him and leave him vulnerable.


So even if he knows it's a lightning clone, Gorgon's in a lose-lose. Best case, he gives away some of his abilities to the real Kakashi.

Originally posted by Bentley
Wouldn't telepathy give the clones away? maybe, but then he will have to do something about a clone far faster than him that he can't mind scan on his ass.

and/or....

another thing, if gorgon actually does read the real kakashi, since kakashi has his sharingan open during fights, gorgon will be reading his thoughts that are being influenced by the sharingan. in essence gorgon will be reading thoughts and movements that are based on countering gorgon himself, being transmitted at the same speed of gorgon's movements, as you can see that will cause a bit of a chain reaction of events/thoughts.

so gorgon creates an infinite loop in his brain the moment he decide to use his telepathy on the real kakashi. his brain will short out in the first second or two, too bad for him kakashi's sharingan doesn't do the same.

I cant believe you all voted on this. At max, I would say Gorgon speed is around the speed of sound, Kakashi>>Gorgon.

This is a STOMP. Not even a fight.

Originally posted by Blair Wind


I figured Battlehammer (or whatever his name is now) might at least have an opinion.


Not much to say, Srank nailed it.

Originally posted by carver9
I cant believe you all voted on this. At max, I would say Gorgon speed is around the speed of sound, Kakashi>>Gorgon.

This is a STOMP. Not even a fight.


Speed of sound probably isn't all that different from Kakashi's speed.


So it'd be like a ninja with two useful jutsu (mind-reading and Stone Eyes), vs him with his.... thousand jutsu. Hm....

Originally posted by Q99
Speed of sound probably isn't all that different from Kakashi's speed.


So it'd be like a ninja with two useful jutsu (mind-reading and Stone Eyes), vs him with his.... thousand jutsu. Hm....

Sasuke in the forest of death was likely faster than sound, if he wasn't Sasuke during the Chuunin exam finals vs Gaara certainly was... and Kakashi is WAY superior to Chuunin exam Sasuke in every conceivable way. We've yet to see Kakashi go all out because he always ends up having to protect some lesser characters from dying every time he fights which opens himself up to getting beat up, but the Data books have him basically on par with Itachi in most areas (and even above him in stamina, which is one of Kakashi's weakest areas). If Kakashi is on par with Itachi as he is said to be in the data books (and I see no reason to believe he isn't - Itachi said Kakashi could beat Kisame, Kakashi's rival did beat Kisame, Kisame did better against Bee than Sasuke did... all of which would place Kakashi soundly above even current Sasuke), he is many times faster than the speed of sound.

Naruto speed is somewhat inconsistent. They take ages to travel places.

It's probably something akin to being capable of short bursts of really fast movement like Selene.

I think they just coast on neutral until they have to fight. I remember when the third was fighting Orichimaru they went on about how ninja fights were very brief and ninja burn through chakra reserves quickly...

but that was when the still vaguely resembled ninja, and not the lame ass combat wizards they are now.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Jack got beat down by a break dancing DJ.
That DJ had rave-dancing minions, a giant exo-suit, and could shoot lasers from his teeth. And Jack beat him anyway.

Kakashi wins by using the thousand years of pain technique

Kakashi Sensei.

Naruto is just on another level. Kakashi, ftw.

Gorgon FTW

Originally posted by psycho gundam
maybe, but then he will have to do something about a clone far faster than him that he can't mind scan on his ass.

and/or....

another thing, if gorgon actually does read the real kakashi, since kakashi has his sharingan open during fights, gorgon will be reading his thoughts that are being influenced by the sharingan. in essence gorgon will be reading thoughts and movements that are based on countering gorgon himself, being transmitted at the same speed of gorgon's movements, as you can see that will cause a bit of a chain reaction of events/thoughts.

so gorgon creates an infinite loop in his brain the moment he decide to use his telepathy on the real kakashi. his brain will short out in the first second or two, too bad for him kakashi's sharingan doesn't do the same.


I don't think that crazy loop interaction you described has ever happened nor anything ever suggested it could happen

Gorgon takes a kunai to the face within the first 5 seconds of this match.

Originally posted by Bentley
I don't think that crazy loop interaction you described has ever happened nor anything ever suggested it could happen i don't see why it's impossible.

sharingan's staring at gorgon making kakashi able to perfectly imitate gorgon's physical actions as they are happening. gorgon uses his tp to read what kakashi is going to do at the same time so he can counteract it like mr. x does (and like batgirl).

the second gorgon tries something, the sharingan imitates it and then gorgon's mind recalibrates for it to counter, sharingan sends more info to kakashi's brain, gorgon reads that and his brain sends him different information, but the moment he tries to do something the sharingan will just copy him...which then sends more info back to gorgon...on and on a and on.

It still just boils down to 'they know what the other'll do.'

but gorgon can't act on it or he'll get flooded by visions or whatever, every time

Originally posted by psycho gundam
but gorgon can't act on it or he'll get flooded by visions or whatever, every time

Sure he can. Just because there's a 'hall of mirrors' effect where something's reflected repeatedly, doesn't mean he can't focus in on what Kakashi's actually going to do and ignore the excess.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Gorgon was able to react to Yo-Yo, but honestly Kakashi is just too fast. Even during the Gaiden when he was in his early teens, Kakshi was able to kill close to a dozen Kage Bunshin spread out over an area about the size of a foot ball field, all on different levels, seemingly at the same time... and that was before he got his Sharingan. Now, he is much faster than that, allegedly fast enough to cut through a lightning bolt with an ability that requires both hand seals and some limited charge times. He's too fast for Gorgon, and too fast for the Mandarin.

I thought Gorgon was supposed to be one of the best MAer's that Marvel has to offer.

Better than Wolvie right? Would Wolvie die against Kakashi as well?

Originally posted by Q99
Sure he can. Just because there's a 'hall of mirrors' effect where something's reflected repeatedly, doesn't mean he can't focus in on what Kakashi's actually going to do and ignore the excess. but kakashi's actions would be based on the actions/counteractions of gorgon.

see the problem?

kakashi is about precision, skillful battle tactics, and not wasting time/energy doing flashy or uneeded manuevers to defeat someone or protect a v.i.p. then you add the sharingan refining his actions so that they are all but designed to counter his opponent... there is nothing but actions that are perfect coming from kakashi's end.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Would Wolvie die against Kakashi as well? He'd get mind raped or bfr'd via reality warp.

^ pretty sure that was a rhetorical question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_388877&v=QpRg_SuHXuM

^ 4:20 he starts using the sharingan to perfectly imitate his opponent with no lag.

i don't have that in manga form but it's virtually the same, i'll have to find the scans

Originally posted by psycho gundam
^ pretty sure that was a rhetorical question




Still, as much as I obviously think Kakashi wins, I thought the holy power of a healing factor would make some people think he could just tank.


Gundams video:
QpRg_SuHXuM

Originally posted by psycho gundam
but kakashi's actions would be based on the actions/counteractions of gorgon.

see the problem?

Yes, and when they actually act it's still only going to be one action. Their brains are still processing the same number of thoughts.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, and when they actually act it's still only going to be one action. Their brains are still processing the same number of thoughts. nope, since kakashi's actions will always put him in a better position.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
nope,

Yes, because my point is him having sharingan doesn't nullify telepathy, and it doesn't, it just evens the reading field a bit.


It's similar to two sharingan users facing, they don't get stuck in a loop or anything.




Gorgon will also be trying to take the best course of action available and he'll be doing it based on his knowledge of what actions Kakashi is actually going to take.

Kakashi will have the edge in actions carried out due to higher abilities, but he's still going to have to actually think of them first.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i don't have that in manga form but it's virtually the same, i'll have to find the scans http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-15-page-11.html

this?

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, because my point is him having sharingan doesn't nullify telepathy, and it doesn't, it just evens the reading field a bit.


It's similar to two sharingan users facing, they don't get stuck in a loop or anything.




Gorgon will also be trying to take the best course of action available and he'll be doing it based on his knowledge of what actions Kakashi is actually going to take.

Kakashi will have the edge in actions carried out due to higher abilities, but he's still going to have to actually think of them first. but kakashi's actions aren't set, they are attuned to his opponent's actions and change accordingly at the same time.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
but kakashi's actions aren't set, they are attuned to his opponent's actions and change accordingly at the same time.


So are Gorgon's but linked to the mind that acts before the chakra.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
but kakashi's actions aren't set, they are attuned to his opponent's actions and change accordingly at the same time.

His actions aren't set until he decides what to do, and he still needs to decide before he acts. Sharingan gives him addition information, it does not alter how thoughts and actions work.

The same holds true for Gorgon.

gorgon lacks the speed to do anything about it, and then kakashi with his superior speed can change tactics matching (bare minimum) the speed of gorgon.

there is no disadvantage

sad that the only argument is if a mind loop is possible.

Originally posted by jalek moye
sad that the only argument is if a mind loop is possible. That's not really the only argument. Among other things, Kakashi has a spacetime jutsu that essentially creates a miniature black hole.

there's also the infamous speed blitz option which would lead to various methods of victory including lighting Gorgon on fire, electrocuting him to death, impaling him, drowning him, etc.

Most certainly not before Gorgon takes off his shades, I mean, he also has super speed and Kakashi must reach him to deal his damage.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's not really the only argument. Among other things, Kakashi has a spacetime jutsu that essentially creates a miniature black hole.

Barring that move (which besides dodging like Deidara did is really not something you can heal from), Gorgon does have a healing factor doesnt he? He could potentially tank most of his other jutsu's......


Naw, he could just encase him in a water prison.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's not really the only argument. Among other things, Kakashi has a spacetime jutsu that essentially creates a miniature black hole.

I mean the only argument going on in the thread. since everyone seems to agree gorgon loses

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Barring that move (which besides dodging like Deidara did is really not something you can heal from), Gorgon does have a healing factor doesnt he? He could potentially tank most of his other jutsu's......


Naw, he could just encase him in a water prison. Meh, even with a healing factor I imagine blowing someone's head off so that they're temporarily incapacitated would count as a win on the forum.

To what degree does Gorgon have superspeed?

taking off shades = turning a shadow clone into stone. I can't remember a time where Kakashi entered a battle without using a clone of some sort almost immediately.

Also, HF doesn't allow you to tank attacks, just heal from them, something Kakashi wouldn't allow him to do... he has no problem going for the kill.

Telepathy should limit the effectiveness of clones even if he decided to use them.

Originally posted by Bentley
Telepathy should limit the effectiveness of clones even if he decided to use them. how? It's not like clones think: "I'm a clone, I'm a clone, I'm a clone". Even if he read the clone's mind, all he would get is battle scenarios and whatnot.

Originally posted by marwash22
how? It's not like clones think: "I'm a clone, I'm a clone, I'm a clone". Even if he read the clone's mind, all he would get is battle scenarios and whatnot.

I thought clones were sustained by chakra and thus you needed a conscious desire to keep them alive to have them running around during errants. I suppose it's not the clone who thinks about sustaining itself, but Gorgon could stare at Kakashi or the clones more freely without just getting intro clone-trick-traps.

Nah, a shadow clone is pretty much a perfect copy of the person created it; it thinks for itself and moves on it's own volition, the only real difference is that it blows up (goes poof) when hit hard enough. The only way Gorgon would know Kakashi created a clone is if his eyes are extremely fast and detect when Kakashi makes the switch.

Originally posted by Bentley
I thought clones were sustained by chakra and thus you needed a conscious desire to keep them alive to have them running around during errants. I suppose it's not the clone who thinks about sustaining itself, but Gorgon could stare at Kakashi or the clones more freely without just getting intro clone-trick-traps.

No, it doesn't take continuous effort that we've seen. It takes effort to make them, and you can dismiss them, but they're independently active on their own in between.

They know their clones so it shouldn't be too deep, but neither they nor the maker have to actively think of sustaining themselves.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's not really the only argument. Among other things, Kakashi has a spacetime jutsu that essentially creates a miniature black hole. as the series progressed, he god pretty good at using it as an offensive/defensive weapon.

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/7290/14739818.png

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7827/92933852.png

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9409/20085070.png

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6942/81840830.png

^ while dying, he swallows up a missile.

swap the missile for gorgon's head/lungs/heart

They also must have a limited life depending on how much chakra was spent, just a logical limitation for people not to use many clones from one occasion to another.

has there ever actually been an instance where a shadow clone disapeared due to time? To my knowledge, the only way a clone goes poof is if they run out of chakra, get hit hard enough or willingly disperses itself. As long as a clone has chakra or doesn't get hit, i think it can stay around as long as it wills itself to.

Originally posted by marwash22
has there ever actually been an instance where a shadow clone disapeared due to time? To my knowledge, the only way a clone goes poof is if they run out of chakra, get hit hard enough or willingly disperses itself. As long as a clone has chakra or doesn't get hit, i think it can stay around as long as it wills itself to.

I think even existing takes some of their chakra so they'll *eventually* run out, but they can hang around for quite awhile, hours minimum.

Originally posted by marwash22
Nah, a shadow clone is pretty much a perfect copy of the person created it; it thinks for itself and moves on it's own volition, the only real difference is that it blows up (goes poof) when hit hard enough. The only way Gorgon would know Kakashi created a clone is if his eyes are extremely fast and detect when Kakashi makes the switch.
If that's true then Shadow Clone Jutsu is the most sinister jutsu ever: creating sentient constructs for the purpose of taking a bullet.

I guess it's just one of those things that's better not to think about.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
If that's true then Shadow Clone Jutsu is the most sinister jutsu ever: creating sentient constructs for the purpose of taking a bullet.

I guess it's just one of those things that's better not to think about.

It's not that bad to think about: They do it willingly and their minds re-merge, they don't so much as 'die' as 'rejoin' you when they're killed.

They don't seem to feel much pain either, poofing right after feeling pain.

Originally posted by Q99
It's not that bad to think about: They do it willingly and their minds re-merge, they don't so much as 'die' as 'rejoin' you when they're killed.

They don't seem to feel much pain either, poofing right after feeling pain.
It's a copy of you, but as soon as its copied it diverges from you and becomes its own person with its own thoughts and experiences.

It reminds me of the Fridge Logic behind Star Trek transporters, an idea that was explored in depth in the Prestige.

You make it sound very Multiple Man, but Madrox makes it even creepier.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It's a copy of you, but as soon as its copied it diverges from you and becomes its own person with its own thoughts and experiences.

It reminds me of the Fridge Logic behind Star Trek transporters, an idea that was explored in depth in the Prestige.

The thing that makes it ok in my book is all it's thoughts and experiences rejoin with yours too.

It's more you temporarily existing in multiple places than entirely separate beings.




Mostly because his can really diverge and sometimes don't want to come back.

Also if they die, they don't come back at all.

Originally posted by Bentley
They also must have a limited life depending on how much chakra was spent, just a logical limitation for people not to use many clones from one occasion to another. my first post shows kakashi using a very powerful lightning jutsu.

--shadow clones are risky cause they take a portion of the ninja's chackra per clone (4 clones = 1/4 chackra), and when they get taken out the chackra is lost.--

so kakashi made a single shadow clone with half his chackra and it used several jutsu, that lightning attack + being made up of lightning itself.

he should be able to take gorgon out with ease while he's fresh

I don't think shadow clones can act entirely of their own volition. They still seem to "obey" the real person.Originally posted by marwash22
The only way Gorgon would know Kakashi created a clone is if his eyes are extremely fast and detect when Kakashi makes the switch. The switches are always so BS so I doubt Gorgon could do this.

Oh Kakashi died. Oh no, wait. It's a shadow clone.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I don't think shadow clones can act entirely of their own volition. They still seem to "obey" the real person. True. I guess i phrased it wrong; i was referring to the clones being able to move independently... they don't have to wait for commands to come in from the original jutsu user before they can act.

and yeah, the switches are BS sometimes; often enough, people with Sharingan get fooled and they're supposed to be able to see everything.

Originally posted by marwash22
True. I guess i phrased it wrong; i was referring to the clones being able to move independently... they don't have to wait for commands to come in from the original jutsu user before they can act.

and yeah, the switches are BS sometimes; often enough, people with Sharingan get fooled and they're supposed to be able to see everything. It's fooled the Byakugan too iirc, which makes little sense.

It fools the Byakugan because the byakugan is supposed to be able to tell that an illusion is an illusion by noticing it's lack of a chakra circulation system. Kage bunshins apparently have those.

Unless you're not talking about kage bunshins at all, but regular bunshins, in which case, I fail.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It fools the Byakugan because the byakugan is supposed to be able to tell that an illusion is an illusion by noticing it's lack of a chakra circulation system. Kage bunshins apparently have those.

Unless you're not talking about kage bunshins at all, but regular bunshins, in which case, I fail. No, I'm talking about shadow clones, except shouldn't there be a clear difference in the amount of chakra in one of Naruto's shadow clones which is constructed from a finite amount of chakra for a finite amount of time/damage, and the real thing, that contains the Kyuubi?

Kakashi stomps...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No, I'm talking about shadow clones, except shouldn't there be a clear difference in the amount of chakra in one of Naruto's shadow clones which is constructed from a finite amount of chakra for a finite amount of time/damage, and the real thing, that contains the Kyuubi? ^ naruto made something like 100 while training to use the fuuton rasenshuriken, though yamato had to monitor him so that he didn't use too much kyuubi chackra as he may transform while doing so.

the byakugan can see the regular bunshins as illusions, so someone from the hyuuga clan would just wipe out the real one amongst the illusions (kakashi made seemingly 20-30 bunshins to scare mob of bloodthirsty ninja in part 1.)

I honestly have no opinion on this fight.

Unless this is Gorgon from the Inhumans.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No, I'm talking about shadow clones, except shouldn't there be a clear difference in the amount of chakra in one of Naruto's shadow clones which is constructed from a finite amount of chakra for a finite amount of time/damage, and the real thing, that contains the Kyuubi?

The kyuubi doesn't show up on the chakra network when not actively providing chakra, so it's not such a big giveaway. As long as the clones are outputting similar chakra amounts I think they're good.

LOL. Anyway, Kakashi stomps. Hard.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I honestly have no opinion on this fight.

Unless this is Gorgon from the Inhumans. how does gorgon from the inhumans fare well enough to beat this guy?

inhuman gorgon could very well kill kakashi from one of his stomps, or at least give him severe overpressure damage inside his torso making him unable to fight.

but kakashi's tactical know-how, ninja trickery, and quickness should give him an opening, and then add his use of bunshins to gauge his opponents safely...and the almighty mini black hole and kakashi may be more lethal.

I'd bet on Kakashi to win that one too. He'll have to keep his distance more, but he does have ranged jutsu, and I'd think he could take Gorgon out with genjutsu at the least.

kakashi tore off one of deidara's arms with his sharingan on it's debut usage, and deidara's arms are his main weapons.

same thing can happen to gorgon's legs, just one leg removed and gorgon's basically a lame horse *shrugs*