Science question: Is light comprised of waves or particles?

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Omega Vision
I asked a friend of mine a few weeks ago this very question, and he told me that from what he's heard though light has no measurable mass and though it behaves with wave like properties that scientists have discovered that objects that are illuminated by a light source gain a minute amount of mass due to the illumination.

So can anyone else shine some light on this (no pun intended) and tell me if they've heard about this phenomenon? I've never been able to find any mention of it anywhere else.

King Castle
this questions sounds like a random scientific question.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=538644&pagenumber=2


It has relativistic mass (meaning that it has energy which can be transformed into mass )

It does not have rest mass though since it cannot _be_ at rest (meaning that it does not exhibit/experience a gravitational pull)

It can be affected by gravity though because gravity essentially curves space-time. Since light always goes in a straight line relative to space-time, if it encounters a curvature in space-time it will continue going straight but since space-time is curved, "straight" will be curved as well. In the case of black holes, the curve is so steep that the "straight" path actually spirals down to a single point from the perspective of an outside observer.

inimalist
it can have properties of either depending on how it is measured

King Castle
hence, its relative. shifty

Symmetric Chaos
It is both, at all times. Scientists have know for decades that "wave" and "particle" are wrong when describing light. They terms stay around because it doesn't matter a lot of the time.

Parmaniac
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality

Mindship
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I asked a friend of mine a few weeks ago this very question, and he told me that from what he's heard though light has no measurable mass and though it behaves with wave like properties that scientists have discovered that objects that are illuminated by a light source gain a minute amount of mass due to the illumination.

So can anyone else shine some light on this...?Atoms absorb light.
Light = energy = mass.
Atoms are taking on mass. However, the amount is well beyond incredibly miniscule.

Also to degrees well beyond incredibly miniscule, tell your friend that:
- Everything he sees is in the past.
- When he runs, he ages more slowly, gets heavier, and gets thinner in one dimension.


smokin'

Parmaniac
Originally posted by Mindship
- When he runs, he ages more slowly, gets heavier, and gets thinner in one dimension Most people I know that run are loosing wheight smile

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Parmaniac
Most people I know that run are loosing wheight smile

Correct, the heat and sweat you produce when running weight thousands (billions?) of times more than the kinetic energy gained by moving.

Mindship
Originally posted by Parmaniac
Most people I know that run are loosing wheight smile Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Correct, the heat and sweat you produce when running weight thousands (billions?) of times more than the kinetic energy gained by moving. Fine. disgust So he drives a car...

...though if he drives on a sunny day, absorbing all those rays...

Rascaduanok
Originally posted by inimalist
it can have properties of either depending on how it is measured This. Therefore light IS neither a wave nor particle, but behaves as a wave or particle depending on what you measure it with.

inimalist
Originally posted by Rascaduanok
This. Therefore light IS neither a wave nor particle, but behaves as a wave or particle depending on what you measure it with.

smile

lol, thread about physics and its me people are quoting?

wink I do think Sym covered it a little better

only sort of related, did you guys see the stuff about experiments where they were able to observe qualities of both in the same experiment?

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
it can have properties of either depending on how it is measured*

*observed



laughing

inimalist
Originally posted by dadudemon
*observed



laughing

actually, I'd very much hesitate to use "observed", because in the more "mystic" side of QM, people take the idea of "observation" literally, as in, a person has to "observe" (use their visual system to look at) for a quantum state to occur.

Measure, in terms of scientific methodology, is synonymous with observe. EDIT: I guess I am assuming what holds for bio/psych holds for physics... measurement might refer more to a quantitized DV whereas observe might be more for qualitative, but all experiments would require some sort of operationalizing of qualitative variables, and I am at a loss for what might be considered "qualitiative" at the level of photons...

ie - We observed an increase in behaviour X by Y, or, we measured an increase in behaviour X by Y. I wanted to emphasize that it was the measuring equipment and the process surrounding those that produced the results, not the act of humans observing.

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
actually, I'd very much hesitate to use "observed", because in the more "mystic" side of QM, people take the idea of "observation" literally, as in, a person has to "observe" (use their visual system to look at) for a quantum state to occur.

Measure, in terms of scientific methodology, is synonymous with observe. EDIT: I guess I am assuming what holds for bio/psych holds for physics... measurement might refer more to a quantitized DV whereas observe might be more for qualitative, but all experiments would require some sort of operationalizing of qualitative variables, and I am at a loss for what might be considered "qualitiative" at the level of photons...

ie - We observed an increase in behaviour X by Y, or, we measured an increase in behaviour X by Y. I wanted to emphasize that it was the measuring equipment and the process surrounding those that produced the results, not the act of humans observing.

It was just a physics joke. The term they use is "observe" when referring to observing it's wave or particle attributes. That's all it was. Nothing serious. big grin

inimalist
Originally posted by dadudemon
It was just a physics joke. The term they use is "observe" when referring to observing it's wave or particle attributes. That's all it was. Nothing serious. big grin

no, I didn't take you too seriously, but, as I'm sure everyone is well aware, I have my grievances with physics. (and I like to talk)

you know, because **** physics

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
you know, because **** physics

but..but....


physics is useful real-world "math"! sad sad sad

inimalist
Originally posted by dadudemon
but..but....


physics is useful real-world "math"! sad sad sad

I only believe in Boolean maths

King Castle
Originally posted by inimalist
I only believe in Boolean maths why do you think physics is useless?

inimalist
Originally posted by King Castle
why do you think physics is useless?

I don't

I have certain issues with the culture surrounding quantum physics, but it would be hard to argue against the field on a conceptual basis.

For instance, all science requires funding. In Psychology, even if what you want to study has nothing to do with clinical applications, you HAVE to find a way to link it if you want funding. So, the last place I worked at, the prof I worked for was doing low level perceptual stuff, with almost no application to real world stuff, and that was a significant factor in why she lost funding. (Funding agencies often do not have people of relevant fields look over your application)

In physics, especially quantum physics, I think the culture has swung toward "the weird". We run experiments that highlight where our theory becomes "strange", so that we can put out press releases like "Computer turns on before we turn it on". My problem with physics sort of stems from this. There is more interest in finding crazy things that people on the internet will talk about (ie. the observer) than in real theoretical understandings.

This is, of course, my layman opinion. However, I've been to a couple of QM presentations/lectures, and seen first hand, physcists who are much more interested in presenting things, such as well understood perceptual phenomena, in terms of QM because it just sounds so much cooler.

King Castle
i agree with you.. i made a similar post about actual application and funding and i lets say some ppl bit my head off.. like how dare you!!knowing about the cat being dead and alive will change how we view the world and one day will have real world applications!!

i was like what? and when a thousand yrs from now? maybe when and if we are gods it might matter.. rolling on floor laughing laughing

i think we should focus on what can be applied here and now and foreseeable future... i rather funding went to applied science then some random think tank who contemplate human existence

inimalist
I actually don't agree with you on not funding theoretical stuff. It is really short sighted to only fund what will produce results in the immediate term.

Fair enough, national governments might want to focus on medicine and other immediate causes (climate change, etc) but in the long term, it is theoretical stuff that drives applied sciences. Focusing too much on applied science stagnates the knowledge pool.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by King Castle
i agree with you.. i made a similar post about actual application and funding and i lets say some ppl bit my head off.. like how tear you!!knowing about the cat being dead and alive will change how we view the world and one day will have real world applications!!

i was like what? and when a thousand yrs from now? maybe when and if we are gods it might matter.. rolling on floor laughing laughing

A solid understanding of quantum mechanics is the basis of electronic computers.

Physicists playing around with particle accelerators (like the LHC) produced the information that lead to television and X-ray machines.

King Castle
b/c of electrons, diodes and vacuum tubes and what not?

but that is applied science not theoretical science.

9eTUz61LNjo&feature=related

inimalist
Originally posted by King Castle
b/c of electrons, diodes and vacuum tubes and what not?

but that is applied science not theoretical science.

yes, but all of those, electrons included, started out as theoretical.

As did quarks and the things that will usher in the next revolution in technology.

Both types of science feed eachother, you can't say one is more important than the other

King Castle
if it was up to me with infinite resources i fund everybody.... we need the geeks/nerds in all shapes from the layman dude who screws around in his garage to the college professors even to the mom who gets that one bright idea.

even them shrinks

inimalist
we agree on that

King Castle
i would be polishing up on my chemistry and workin on my shroom culture and LSD..

also making home made poisons from taters and hemlock..

have to get rid of those pesky laws and having to register my equipment..

chemistry was my passion for some weird reason...

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by King Castle
b/c of electrons, diodes and vacuum tubes and what not?

Because for decades televisions literally required you to have a particle accelerator in a box. X-ray machines are still built that way.

inimalist
Originally posted by King Castle
i would be polishing up on my chemistry and workin on my shroom culture and LSD..

actually, there are a couple of legit things I'd love to use hallucinogens to try and study, but even in Canada the government locks that stuff down hardcore. A grad student at the university I got my undergrad at was doing research on a possible "biological gateway-drug" type phenomenon, where cannibis use was hypothesized to increase the desire to use of cocaine. (the results, in mice, were positive btw...)

she was not allowed to use pot, and had to use some other natural cannaboid, meaning that another interpretation of her results would be that being sick makes you want cocaine. That being said, I never asked if she was allowed to use real coke.

Originally posted by King Castle
also making home made poisons from taters and hemlock..

have to get rid of those pesky laws and having to register my equipment..

I don't know, I still think safety and ethics are important...

Originally posted by King Castle
chemistry was my passion for some weird reason...

then seriously man, try to get back into it. seriously if only because, and I know this from experience, it is so nice to tell some aggressive fat pig, to his face, that you are a scientist when he is hasseling you like some G or something.

LOL. I came up with lots of reasons, but I thought that might be best...

Bardock42
Originally posted by inimalist
then seriously man, try to get back into it. seriously if only because, and I know this from experience, it is so nice to tell some aggressive fat pig, to his face, that you are a scientist when he is hasseling you like some G or something.

LOL. I came up with lots of reasons, but I thought that might be best...

That reminds me of something one of my idols, Robin Lee Powell, wrote on his website:







And yes, I keep a list of my idols....I have 6 so far. no expression

King Castle
Originally posted by inimalist


then seriously man, try to get back into it. seriously if only because, and I know this from experience, it is so nice to tell some aggressive fat pig, to his face, that you are a scientist when he is hasseling you like some G or something.

LOL. I came up with lots of reasons, but I thought that might be best... a scientist is not an invincible shield it will get you a punch in the face.. rolling on floor laughing wack!!

but i think being a scientist is cool especially if they are women and hot..so long as they are not self absorbed.. thinkin they are all that..

i only have basic chemistry knowledge from high school and a basic college course for my job which was a requirement to get certified, i played around with power, gas, water lines when i was a construction worker.. plus when i was in the military i had to take hazmat courses every few months to maintain my state certification in handling hazardous chemicals..

plus military booklets in making explosives..

i was a geek without being an actual bookworm..

i could probably take a few college courses and get the general idea about what they are talkin about but i be bored and instead ask if i can make jet fuel napalm using centric juice and random every day items.. possibly make some meth and coke or LSD...

i am not allowed to play anymore at home since my birds died last time i was playin mad scientist..

i probably be the guy either would get paid by questionable ppl to use my mediocre knowledge or the one to be seen on the news blown up in a trailer b/c i lit a cigarette next to an acetylene tank

inimalist
Originally posted by King Castle
a scientist is not an invincible shield it will get you a punch in the face.. rolling on floor laughing wack!!

not in canada...

but no, it doesn't stop anything, but it is a moral victory. I went from being really nervous about a pretty big deal, to having to hold back laughter as this idiot reacted to the fact I'm not a gangbanger. By the end his partner, obviously embarassed, was all but appologizing. The partner was actually a nice guy, or really good at "good cop".

Originally posted by King Castle
but i think being a scientist is cool especially if they are women and hot..so long as they are not self absorbed.. thinkin they are all that..

i only have basic chemistry knowledge from high school and a basic college course for my job which was a requirement to get certified, i played around with power, gas, water lines when i was a construction worker.. plus when i was in the military i had to take hazmat courses every few months to maintain my state certification in handling hazardous chemicals..

plus military booklets in making explosives..

i was a geek without being an actual bookworm..

i could probably take a few college courses and get the general idea about what they are talkin about but i be bored and instead ask if i can make jet fuel napalm using centric juice and random every day items.. possibly make some meth and coke or LSD...

well, think about how much easier it would be to explain why you have a huge set of chemistry equipment in your garage if you have an MSc in chemistry.

Originally posted by King Castle
i am not allowed to play anymore at home since my birds died last time i was playin mad scientist..

i probably be the guy either would get paid by questionable ppl to use my mediocre knowledge or the one to be seen on the news blown up in a trailer b/c i lit a cigarette next to an acetylene tank

like I was saying about safety procedure

Originally posted by Bardock42
That reminds me of something one of my idols, Robin Lee Powell, wrote on his website:

And yes, I keep a list of my idols....I have 6 so far. no expression

LOL

unfortunatly you don't win too many arguments with a psychology degree

who are the other 5?

Bardock42
Originally posted by inimalist


LOL

unfortunatly you don't win too many arguments with a psychology degree

who are the other 5?

Excellent question inimalist.

They are Daniel Merlin Goodbrey, an (experimental) comic book writer, Simon Haynes, a programmer and writer, Koichi, a blogger and japanese teacher, Terence Tao, a mathematician and Ben Croshaw, also known as Yahtzee, a game critic.

inimalist
Impressive list, I know none of them...

I'll check out some of Goodbrey's stuff though

Bardock42
Originally posted by inimalist
Impressive list, I know none of them...

I'll check out some of Goodbrey's stuff though

Yeah, they are not crazily popular. Which makes sense since they all do something I like, but more importantly mostly do things I would like to do (in a magical universe where things don't take grindingly achieved skills) and if there's one thing I can imagine being worse not being known, it's being incredibly popular....

A five figure amount of unconditional fans that want to send you all their money...seem like the perfect amount for a happy life.


Do check out Goodbrey though, he makes some really good stuff, his website is www.e-merl.com

kgkg
Photon acts like both waves and particle.

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
I don't

I have certain issues with the culture surrounding quantum physics, but it would be hard to argue against the field on a conceptual basis.

For instance, all science requires funding. In Psychology, even if what you want to study has nothing to do with clinical applications, you HAVE to find a way to link it if you want funding. So, the last place I worked at, the prof I worked for was doing low level perceptual stuff, with almost no application to real world stuff, and that was a significant factor in why she lost funding. (Funding agencies often do not have people of relevant fields look over your application)

In physics, especially quantum physics, I think the culture has swung toward "the weird". We run experiments that highlight where our theory becomes "strange", so that we can put out press releases like "Computer turns on before we turn it on". My problem with physics sort of stems from this. There is more interest in finding crazy things that people on the internet will talk about (ie. the observer) than in real theoretical understandings.

This is, of course, my layman opinion. However, I've been to a couple of QM presentations/lectures, and seen first hand, physcists who are much more interested in presenting things, such as well understood perceptual phenomena, in terms of QM because it just sounds so much cooler.

Well, there are some very useful discoveries and quantifications even in QM. For instance, a computing barrier that both fits the "weird" AND the useful would be the casimir effect. I wrote a paper about it and how it fits into nanotechnology. Outside of computers, I really don't know how useful it would be on a knowledgeable level...so don't ask me cause I don't want to look stupid. lol


Edit - Was at work so I almost did not have time to edit. I know that you're not saying that all QP "discoveries" are useless, just wanted to point out a really good one that will be useful.

dadudemon
deleted...dp.

Mindship
Originally posted by King Castle
even them shrinks smile


Originally posted by inimalist
unfortunatly you don't win too many arguments with a psychology degree
People generally react to those with psych backgrounds in one of two ways...
- "It's all bull*t."
- "I have this friend..."

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Mindship
People generally react to those with psych backgrounds in one of two ways...
- "It's all bull*t."
- "I have this friend..."

"So, like, are you analyzing me right now or something?"

inimalist
Originally posted by Mindship
People generally react to those with psych backgrounds in one of two ways...
- "It's all bull*t."
- "I have this friend..."

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
"So, like, are you analyzing me right now or something?"

LOL!!!!!!

"Oh, then you would love to study me, I'm so weird, let me unload a torrent of personal information that you are obviously interested in, you know, because I am so unique"

"You aren't unique or strange, don't worry"

"I guess not"

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by inimalist
..."You aren't unique or strange, don't worry"...

I wouldn't go that far. laughing out loud

Mindship
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
"So, like, are you analyzing me right now or something?" You nailed it, at some point this usually being followed by, "It's all bullsh*t."

Originally posted by inimalist
"Oh, then you would love to study me, I'm so weird, let me unload a torrent of personal information that you are obviously interested in, you know, because I am so unique"
This is now-n-then hidden in the, "I have this friend..." But then, the "Friend" tactic covers a lot of introductory ground.

inimalist
Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, there are some very useful discoveries and quantifications even in QM. For instance, a computing barrier that both fits the "weird" AND the useful would be the casimir effect. I wrote a paper about it and how it fits into nanotechnology. Outside of computers, I really don't know how useful it would be on a knowledgeable level...so don't ask me cause I don't want to look stupid. lol


Edit - Was at work so I almost did not have time to edit. I know that you're not saying that all QP "discoveries" are useless, just wanted to point out a really good one that will be useful.

well, ya, of course, I'm not critiscizing the results, they are pretty unambigious most of the time.

I'm more critiscizing the culture surrounding how the interpretations are done, and what types of research programmes are taken up, but even then, I'm doing it as a layman.

King Castle
Originally posted by inimalist
not in canada...

but no, it doesn't stop anything, but it is a moral victory. I went from being really nervous about a pretty big deal, to having to hold back laughter as this idiot reacted to the fact I'm not a gangbanger. By the end his partner, obviously embarassed, was all but appologizing. The partner was actually a nice guy, or really good at "good cop".



well, think about how much easier it would be to explain why you have a huge set of chemistry equipment in your garage if you have an MSc in chemistry.


this would be me with access to certain chemicals..

RmdvmBVgt1o

RE: Blaxican
I watched a video on spankwire once of like a porno version of thatshow.

King Castle
Originally posted by inimalist



then seriously man, try to get back into it. seriously if only because, and I know this from experience, it is so nice to tell some aggressive fat pig, to his face, that you are a scientist when he is hasseling you like some G or something.

LOL. I came up with lots of reasons, but I thought that might be best...

qkALglQsLJU&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Bicnarok

753
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I watched a video on spankwire once of like a porno version of thatshow. hot?

dadudemon

Bicnarok
Originally posted by dadudemon
I remember the first time I read about wave-particle duality: it blew my freaking mind!

That was probably my first REAL "WTF!" moment.

Then we have something in commonsmile

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