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a Topic of discussion with some friends of mine is that being me a Big fan of Star Wars (i'm the greater of all my friends) I tremendously hate Ep1 and Ep2. And thats because those movies have a terrible cuantity of horrible mistakes, contradictions and I personally hate the stetic (why in ep2 couldn't they make only ONE set) it has too many computer efects! and those effect could be better. They have the money, the time (don't tell me that 3 years is not enough) and the tecnology
anyone who has seen LOTR knows that those effects kicks Ep2's ass

Tell me your opinions (but don't make me argue too much )

What I hated about Episode II was lack of new characters.

For me it's the overall feel.... For some reason the entire feel is quite unlike the OT. And the storytelling is more woody, jumpy from one scen to the other trying to get as much in as possible. For some reason it just doesn't "click" right.

maybe we just grew up

What contradictions?

Only bit I hated were the burdensome Naboo scenes; film should have been re-cut for faster flow.

In AOTC???? If so, I agree. It would have been much better if they'd fallen in love on the transport, inlcuding nightmares and all. They could have landed and taken off to Tatooine right away. My, I really HATE that scene at the waterfalls with the fat cows.

And I dunno about growing up. It really is different. It all feels like GL is trying to say too much in the PT's. The OT is simpler and more effective. I still find ESB more romantic than AOTC, but the amount of romatic scenes is so much less.

the old ones are full of mistakes also.
Indeed the feeling in the new ones is DIFFERENT, but not necessarily worse.
Thought ep. II is kinda bad.
Ep. I still stands in my top.

no mistakes in the old ones

Ep II is for me a fair recovery from the dull EpI... EpI is bearable when you consider that to be only a prologue. Prologues don't have to be wonderful, only setting the scene. It did that.

I just loved maul and qui gon in ep I..the race too.

what do you mean no mistakes in the old ones finti. Just think at the ewoks taking stormtroopers down with arrows. And there are MAny more

maybe it doesn't click because there is more of a plot in the old series than there is in the new ones, but please don't give up hope in episode III, maybe you haven't but still...

That's not a mistake, Dexx, that is just something you do not like.

its not like the Stormtroopers armor is of steel Dex, it seems more like hardened plastic and arrows will easily penetrate those

hardened plastic, looks cool on me.

I thik Ep1 is the worts, It's a children movie and all the messes it have:
*The midiclorians: this is somthing i dislike, but It really took out all the misticism the Jedis had, now they're just guys with little thinghs in their blood.
*The way anakin destoyed the control ship: don't tell me that the main reactor was in the middle opf the hangar bay with no protection (oops, and he destroyed an entire ship. BAH!)
*Maul: was a little exploded caracter, he only has two dialogs in the whole movie, He could have been far more better if they just explded him
*and a lot of things more

eeehhh SW was always meant to be a childrens movie

why on earth would you be strapped in hardened plastic all around???
A thick jacket gives me better protection than those.
Anyway..maybe it is just something i don't like

Don't tell ESB IS a childresn movie.
adn compare Ep1 to the Clasic Trilogy, even with Ep2
Ep1 It's made for 10 years old children or less

so was the OT

Indeed. But it seems the OT takes children a bit more seriously.

we were more clever then

YEAH!!

The 'trade tariffs' plot of TPM is an example of skewed thinking there. See, my older brother, who is very much into history and political theory, will happily tell you that is as great a way to start a crisis to bring about conflict and political change as any.

But how many kids will appreciate that? I fear GL is making fair points in an entirely inappropriate setting. Fact is, GL has 'grown up', moved on, he wants to make different points and say different things- like his surface analysis of democracy in AOTC. But what does he think he is going to do? Teach kids basic politics? Nuh uh! They don't care.

The OT was easy. Good guys and bad guys, hero Rebels and evil Empire. Now we are in a grown up world. But he SAYS it is still for kids.

So we have to ask... what IS he trying to say? I think he should have kept the political plot distant- maybe even cliched and unbelievable- and kept the main thing about Anakin's morality. I would rather my brother had to complain "that political plot was just nonsense" and the kids actually understand everything that is going on, than the other way around.

I like The Phantom Menace slightly more than Attack of the Clones,but I love the original trilogy as well!

I for one would like to know exactly what happened between anakin and obi-wan.

I liked the Phantom Menace a lot too ... that was an enjoyable movie ... AOTC was a weak movie because they concentrated the wrapping rather than the gift inside the box ... the visuals, sounds, effects etc. were terrific ... but in the making of the movie, they did not address those issues that are primary in making mainstream cinema ... strong plot, good acting, interesting script ... AOTC lacked in these respects, and so the movie was weak. The PT ... the story wasnt that complex ... but just the way the story flowed, and the different characters ... it WAS interesting, and is so even today ... even though I've grown up.

hey, it's master harmax

Don't ask me where i was for so long .... I dont know myself. Wish someone could tell me.

asleep?

eh....I like the new ones...the old ones are awesome, but they're the classics....the new ones are still star wars though

Good points Ush. And I agree with you on all counts there.

For me the problem is also that GL is way too subtle on Palpy's rise to power and all the political scheming he is doing. The fact that he is about to wipe out all power structures in the universe (banking guild, techno-union, trade federation etc. etc.) by massing them on one hand to oppose the republic and on the other hand to raise an army of the republic to destroy them and thus take over the universe is subtly told, very few have so far caught this very essential and crucial plot.
If you do bad guy politics, make it so blatant and obvious for all to see. All in all we have to wait 6 years to understand TPM and three years to fully appreciate Palpy's scheming in TPM and AOTC. That is pretty dumb filmmaking and if kids would at all care for this plot, they're certainly not getting it.

But the kids don't give s*** about the plot, all they care about is the action. I think GL knows this and i think the adults who just watches it don't care either.

Huh? You have missed our point entirely, Member. My point is that the plot that GL has put in completely misses the kids audience, and so they find much of it irrelevant and incomprehensible. The new films are not endless action for the kids; he is devoting a lot of time and energy to an issue I think is pretty much a waste of time.

As he says, he makes them more for himself than anyone else. He will talk for ages about these subtle political plots. But then still says they are for kids... it does not tally.

Indeed, somehow it seems like no one in his team critices him from time to time...

it may be so

how very true Ush, still it is supposed to be aimed at the 10 ++ years old. Go figure, the NT is a bit more complex than the OT no doubt there

I say 'waste of time'. I find it all rather engaging. BGut as I think queeq has pointed out before, we are die-hard fans; it is the casual viewer who will not care about all this effort GL has put into the background plot- and this is no criticism of the casual viewer, who was hardly expecting to have to THINK much about an SW plot. The original films were brilliant in their simplicity and hence their popularity.

In fact, this is almost the sort of more in-depth plot I would expect from a tv-series, rather than a set of films.

indeed

Yup, And it's not just that average viewers are not interested in the plot, most of the time they don't even realise it exists. And then they condemn it for being a shallow story... weird huh.

wierd

Quite

That movie blows....it was just lame all over....owch!

How I love analysis...

Especially thorough one like that.

woooh...don't get me wrong...i like star wars! er...liked....i guess i should use the past tense...hump...well the old ones are still real good...

I've already come to the harsh conclusion that I don't like the PT, as already mentioned by someone, it just doesn't fit the OT jigsaw at all.

Its a shame really because just before TPM was released, my geekiness regarding all things SW was at a peek. I mean REAL peek too, I was reading every EU book just to get my fix for SW. Then TPM kinda took the wind out of my sails but I put it down to it being just an introduction to better things, but alas that hasn't happened. I think something else that ruined it for me was the whole "Vong" series in the EU book, they suck and I haven't been able to get into the books since.

I think I'm gonna have to be one of those die-hard OT fans when what I really hoped for was a new trilogy that I could watch and enjoy with my kids just like me and my dad did with the OT. Woe is me.

Yeah, these new SW movies have sucked major ass.

I absolutley hated EPI, untill EPII came out, I have a new found respect for EPI.

EPIII should go straight to video

the way I look at it, they're not fully successful as films, but they work wonderfully as a sort of 'visual encyclopedia' of the times before the Orighinal Trilogy

Eye candy, that's all they are!

I have never liked any of the New Jedi Order/Vong novels. They are way too dark,even more so than The Empire Strikes Back ever was! The death of Chewbacca ended my interest in the classic novel series. When The Phantom Menace came out, yes, I was excited. But then I started to really hate it. It was too juvenile and I now believe it was a poor way to introduce Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi when they were young! Attack of the Clones gets really good about two-thirds into it,with the clone army and the Jedi fighting Dooku and the Seperatists,but sadly ends just as it gets interesting! I hope III is even better and that it actually shows us the Clone Wars and its aftermath, instead of leaving it to a series of cartoons!

Very short cartoons...

Anyway, I happen to rather like the prequels; I think it is a far more interesting time that they are set in.

Episode III has a lot to live up to! But I do concur the sentiment(or lack thereof)regarding The Phantom Menace being more of a children's movie, although it is a bit exciting during the lightsaber battles.And let us not forget Yoda's speech in the Council chamber!

I don't see it as being any more a children's move than TPM. And both prequel films are way better than ROTJ.

non of the prequels film are even close to any of the OT

I disagree; ROTJ was poor.

I certainly did not think much of the Ewoks or the scenes at Jabba's Palace.

The only bad thing about ROTJ is the Ewoks, Otherwise it would be the best of the OT (for me)

Nah. I don't even have a huge problem with the Ewoks- they do not appeal to me but they are not 'wrong', in a filmmaking sense.

But plenty else is. ESB was going to be the film in the MIDDLE of the whole saga. Suddenly it became the film one before the end when GL chose to end it all in ROTJ. And so suddenly, from the Empire being big and strong and unstoppable and Vader triumphant and there being 'another' and Han captured and Luke having messed up his training...

...we had to get to Han rescued, Vader and Emperor dead, good guys victorious, the 'another' revealed and Luke a full Jedi in two hours. It was ALWAYS going to be a bit of a mess.

So we have a film which actually looks like a mini-film with a longer one bolted on- the Jabba's Palace bit (which I quite liked) followed by a sudden shunt ito the rest of the film, unlike the previous two- AND the two prequels- where everything flowed smoothly.

We have to introduce, build up the threat of, and then kill, the Emperor inside an absurdly small amount of time, which means that while he SOUND scary he just seems, well, crap. The only problem with him being so clever in the new films is that his stupidity in ROTJ is all the more apparent.

Luke's 'completing his training' on Dagobah simply disappears into a fuzzy "ah, well, maybe you are ready anyway...". Gee, even his father needed ten years of training before getting there!

Luke's sister became Leia, as she was the only convenient female they could use. But they KISSED! BLEURGH!

Han Solo's love plot turned from the tumulteous greatness of ESB into... err... well, rather flat and settled, wasn't it, because they had to make THOSE two look happy as well.

The most original threat George could think of? A larger Death Star. Pfft. Boring.

The entire Imperial fleet, that is supposed to be the scourge of the rebels, seems to disappear. Ok, the Death Star is destroyed, big shame. But why are we expected to believe that the Emperor's trap of having the whole fleet there suddenly stops working? Now EVERYONE has to come up with extended explanations of why the Imperial Fleet did not annhiliate the rebels, which is expoisition we should not have to make!

But worst of all, they rushed the end SO MUCH that they ruined the credibility of the vital scenes of Luke's final confrontation with the Emperor and Vader. These were GOOD scenes, and I hope the 'rhyming' ones in episode iii will be as good.

But they were pointless. Luke's final confrontation, Anakin's redemption, and the Emperor's death should have been the single event that led to the rebel victory. But it did NOT. It was almost completely irrelevant. All it did was save Luke's life, which is nice, but hardly vital.

Because the Death Star was destroyed ANYWAY. The Rebels won without ANY help from Luke at all, and the Emperor and Vader would have died no matter what.

In fact, the unstoppable Imperial Forces of ESB became SO shit in ROTJ that the threat dissolved and Luke may as well have stayed at home.

Oh, people try to justify it, saying that the Emperor's 'magic powers' would have defeated the rebels were it not for Luke, but we all know that is just grasping at straws, and that this is basically an error caused by the rushing of the plot. Luke's's victory should have been CRITICAL- not a sideshow.

All in all... FAR worse than either prequel film.

even so it aint half as bad as the the prequels

ROTJ was great

Gee. That was all worth me typing.

Well I read it all Ush and I can see your points.

*points at Ush's erect nipples*




No seriously, my major problem with the PT is the lack of flow. I can't decide whether its because I've watched the OT a million times and I just don't notice or what?

Shame you mentioned the nipples, or I could have come back with "Well, it's these new trousers, they ruck up easily..."

Good point, Ush. Some even make sense.

But really, I still think all the scenes with Vader and the Emperor make up for a lot of bad plot point. And I remember enjoying the Ewoks as a kid. And I still think the lightsabre fights in ESB and ROTJ are the best. maybe not technically, but certainly dramatically. The PT ones have too little of that.

For me AOTC begins to pick up when Dooku appears. Finally something's at stake again. Something completely lacking from the PT until then and something so very present in all OT films. I still feel AOTC shoudl have opened with something like Dooku arriving on Geonosis (like the OT ones did: tehy always started with the baddies) to check on his grand battle droid army. It would have hovered over the entire film as an impending thread without loosing the effect of the viewer being pushed into the same scheme the Jedi Council is. But that's just me I guess.
And yes, EPIII DOES have a lot to live up to.

they should make a prologue.

Another one???? For me TPM is good for a prologue, not for a SW movie as part of the story.

I think GL would have spent his money better making the Thrawn Trilogy, now there was a villian who kicked ass.

Next time I am just going to post

"ROTJ sucks ass. You all suck!"

The Thrawn trilogy was good. And yes Ush I think youhave finally found the mental level of the rest of us. ESB Rocks dude

You'd post something that we can understand????

and finish reading

So which prequel film does everybody here prefer? The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones? Or are you waiting and hoping Episode III will save the day?

EPI is a masterpiece compared to Episode II.
If this is any indication, EPIII should be a major snooze festzzzzzz

Personally, I'd prefer AOTC and only because the film changes into a good mood once Dooku arrives on the scene. I like AOTC a lot from that point on and more than any part of TPM.

I also prefer AOTC.

Cool.

AOTC is the better of the two IMO, just because the villians are more formidable.

I thought Maul was great but to get killed so easily without doing much was silly of GL.

YOu are entitled to your oppinion, but I still like the prequels

*Slams fist down on table*

WELL YOU'RE WRONG WOMAN!!!


Only joking, I honestly wish I liked them.

No, no... don't apologise. That's the way to debate!!!

Debating can be lots of fun, as long as nobody accidentally steps over someone else's toes!

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

An argument is a set of statements taken from an opposite viewpoint, not just disagreeing with someone...

This suddenly turned into a Monty Python thread? Guess I'll have to close it then.

You have the power to do that? For real?

Pffffft, he's only bluffing Gordon.

Oh Good. For a moment I was worried we had somehow offended our 'very powerful' friend! Nice to know that was not the case! I prefer Attack of the Clones because it feels more like Star Wars to me. Except for certain characterisations I did not like The Phantom Menace as much as its sequel. I did enjoy the lightsaber duels though. But it felt too estranged from the rest of the series. By this logic, III should feel even more like the original trilogy.

I got Gordon sacred eh? *Emperor's voice* Good.... good....

now now...play nice.....and wipe that silly grin off your face, Queeq

I enjoyed both TPM and AOTC when they were released, but have certain characters I still find as favorites. Liam Neeson was the best thing of the first film, and in the second film, it was the friendship between Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker that caught my attention. I also enjoyed seeing more of why Yoda and Mace Windu ARE the Masters of the Jedi Order! And Natalie Portman was nice to look at,too!

Very nice...

It's sure nice to have friends in high places.

NP looks really hot in AOTC.

I liked Anakin's little rant on Tatooine best from AOTC, the bit about slaughtering all the Tusken Raiders. Very chilling.

"Anakin...Anakin....NOOOOO!!!"

hm...

I still like The Phantom Menace. I like how Liam Neeson portrayed the role of Qui-Gon Jinn. His performance is a modern classic!

TPM was a decent enough movie.....it was entertaining...it had interesting fights....the characters had on awesome costumes...and the acting overall wasn't that bad either

...and Liam Neeson was in it.

A plus point for any film.

lol... the phantom menace was nice. but clone wars so much better. much better story and u see more of padme

True, all true. Maybe 3 can use the best elements from 1 and 2 and make an even more spectacular motion picture event!

And maybe Padme could be topless?

w00t, that'll be the day

Too bad, guys. Remember: SW! "You know, for kids!"

Yes we must keep these things clean for all the little people(i.e.children)! I wholeheartedly agree!

will somebody PLEASE think of the children!!

I hear you man!

not naming any names but *cough* me*cough*, but only a little fraction of kids here like SW movies

And this is the reason why Star Wars will never have a rating over 'PG'.

Star wars is for the whole family.

Yes we all agree!

Yes lots of action, some what funny at times, hardly any violence, and no blood & gore. YES i agree SW is good for the entire family.

there should be more of it:-)

You are completely correct. I hope GL will continue the saga.

yes, it's definately for the whole family, my father loves SW and so do my young kids.

I started to like SW when i was about 5. My grandpaw is the person i thank for that. He looks like Obi in ep4.

Cool resemblance.

Every time i watch that movie i think of my grandpaw.

i'm a hardcore star wars fan regardless. i loved all the movies and will with out a doubt continue to do so. even though i could not stand jar jar.

I think that before anyone really critisizes or bashes down on the NT movies, we should wait for ep3. it maybe the movie that wraps everything up and brings everything together and lets us make much more sense out of the other two in this trilogy.

it better be. Cause i will pay 6 bucks to see it.

I had a bunch of friends who fell asleep at the theater the first time they went to Ep II... quite an indicator!

Well, I didn't need two films to love ANH, or even ROTJ to love ESB. So I disagree that we should not be able to appreciate the PT films that ARE finished. After all, people who see it in the cinema don't have the other films to judge it by either. So why should we?

I don't actually hate the prequels but do like the originals a bit more.

we should because we're hardcore fans to analyze and take everything lucas reveals about the star wars universe to the nth degree. the majority of the public doesn't. if they were, they would all be posting things in these forums

I agree. the original do tell us more about the actual story, but when ep#3 comes out that will be the most revealing.

plus, if lucas has already reveal so much of what we are speculating on right now, what would be the point in watching the movies? i'm sure we would, but why would everyone else want to? with the entire plot line with details revealed, it would pointless to go to the movies two more times. he's gotta keep some if not a lot of things hidden for ep3 to keep up the suspense. and i'm sure there's gonna be some kinda plot twister that we wouldn't expect.

I am in total agreement here.

all the movies are pure magic to me.

You know what gets on my nerves about Episode 1? It's because Jar-Jar Binks is so retarded. He just isn't as funny as Han Solo is from the OT. It's as if GL meant for him to be as funny as Han Solo is.

jar jar is rather annoying.

the only thing I didn't like about the prequels was how it was all computer generated, and how the stuff like the Naboo Fighter looked sleeker and smoother than the X-Wing, or the Falcon. I can understand using computer graphics to make a droid army of thousands but did Jar-Jar Binks really need to be CG? I heard that in the third film R2-D2 will be computer generated, and thats just pushing it all.

Why? It'll work.

And what great plot twisters do you expect? What great plot twisters did we have so far? We all know how it's gonna end. There may be a few sideline surprises but in the end: how relevant would it be. Take for instance the fact that the predecessors of the Stormtroopers were Clones derived from Boba Fett's genetically identical father. Nice detail, but it really is not a relevant plot point to the main story: the rise, fall en resurrection of Anakin Skywalker.

God Lucas is such a dick. Instead of trying to make a good movie all he is concerned about is making new technology. Its a shame. Lucas has gone to the dark side. Our last hope is that he won't make episodes 7-9 *shudder*

I love ALL of the SW movies. My parents brought me up on the OT and I'll always thank them for it. At least now I don't have such a narrow-minded view to fantasy/sci-fi films as so many of my friends and peers do.
Now I'M growing up on the PT and loving them even more so!! Ep1&2 for me have been amazing and no matter how many times I watch the movies or listen to the music I'll never get sick of them.
Ep2 "moved" me . I thought the storyline, action, everything was fantastic. In my eyes HC truly portrayed Anakin; showing the pure, innocence that Jake Lloyd showed in Ep1 and also the glimpses of anger that helps to link the new and old movies. The scene with Anakin and his mother made me FEEL for Anakin Skywalker and the anger he showed made it believable that he was going to turn to the dark side and become Darth Vader, the Jedi we all love to hate. The relationship he has with Obi-Wan also links the trilogies well.
The love story was the highlight for me. Perhaps because I'm a chick or because it reminded me slightly of Han & Leia, it still made the film my favourite.
NP was beautiful and strong and the chemistry she shared with HC was for me, very enjoyable. She will always be my favourite SW character .
I did ramble on a bit there, sorry about that but I just thought I'd say something nice, everything seemed to be picking holes in the wonderous SW saga.

if you dont like the movies, dont watch them.

well I think episode 3 is gonna be really good

So do I, even if there is heaps that has to happen. I mean we all know Anakin is going to turn. The fun part is waiting to see how GL does it.
I can't wait!!

IT IS GONNA ROCK HARD!!!!!

I can't wait, I'm so excited!!
Afterwards I'll be a little bit sad because I wont get that "it's only 3 years until the next one" feeling...

its gonna be a long 3 years....

Oh I know!!
I don't think I really noticed it that much between Ep1-Ep2 but for some reason waiting for Ep3, 2005 just seems so far away.

what is so damn special about the pod racing scene in episode 1? I mean really why does everyone praise that scene. episode 1 was like a cartoon. I know lucas wanted to change the feel so he could gain new fans but what is there for the old fans.What about in episode it seems like lucas got bored and ran out of ideas for action sequences i mean when obi wan jumped out of that window and grabbed ahold of the probe you wouldnt see any of that shit in the originals

because they have no windows on either Tatooine, the death star, hoth, dagobah or endor?

Like... that was an action seen, RR, you got tons of stuff like that in the originals.

like the garbage shaft in ANH, the Astroid worm in ESB

pod racing is tattoine's nascar.....

Nice one Yerssot

could be.....