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Unless their are some feats I missed Punisher wins.

Jason.

Puns.

Close one, Jason is a beast.

In a standard envivorment and starting distance, Frank blows Jason away.

Originally posted by SamZED
Close one, Jason is a beast.

Really?

Jason Todd is pretty dam tough, this be a pretty closes fight. I actually side with the more experienced and tougher Frank Castle.

Originally posted by Deadline
Really? Pretty sure he beat Nightwing and did great against Bats. The guy's no joke.

Originally posted by SamZED
Pretty sure he beat Nightwing and did great against Bats. The guy's no joke. Ya.

Slight majority to Jason.

Jason slightly ftw..

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Jason Todd is pretty dam tough, this be a pretty closes fight. I actually side with the more experienced and tougher Frank Castle.

I agree. Frank has the edge in experience, but Jason is an up and comer who's very near him.

Castle 6/10.

Originally posted by SamZED
Pretty sure he beat Nightwing and did great against Bats. The guy's no joke.

Didn't he make Nightwing and Tim look like a joke?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Didn't he make Nightwing and Tim look like a joke?

I believe he did..

Was it an ambush attack, though?

Jason Todd. Frank might be tougher, but Jason has more skill, and is just as ruthless imo.

Dick thinks of jason like a brother, otherwise he would rape him everytime

Originally posted by -Pr-
Jason Todd. Frank might be tougher, but Jason has more skill, and is just as ruthless imo.

More ruthlesss... than the punisher... doh I'm not saying he's not bad I mean building a batcave to torture criminals was pretty bad but Frank on a regular basis for information will torture the hell out of someone. I'm actually going to lean towards the Punisher on this one he tends to carry the bigger arsenal and also cqc wise his durability may be too much for Todd a case of Marv vs. Kevin from Sin City film IMO. Todd needs to rely on his agility and pulling a stealth kill or have a high cover environment where he can move around to out maneuver Frank.

He said just as ruthless, not more ruthless.

my bad lol not awake at the moment.

what are their starting weapons.

Originally posted by Mindset
Dick thinks of jason like a brother, otherwise he would rape him everytime

agreed.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Jason Todd. Frank might be tougher, but Jason has more skill, and is just as ruthless imo.
I think you be hard pressed to prove jason more skilled, let a lone to the point it gives him the win.

why do you believe he more skilled? Also in what way do you believe he more skilled?






I agree with both you and mind that Dick holds back against him.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I think you be hard pressed to prove jason more skilled, let a lone to the point it gives him the win.

why do you believe he more skilled? Also in what way do you believe he more skilled?






I agree with both you and mind that Dick holds back against him.

His pure h2h skill is what i'm talking about. His h2h both as Robin and as Red Hood do more than convince me that he's good enough when you think about who he's fought.

Plus, when you consider the people he's held his own against and how well they've done and the amount of times he's done it, it says a lot about him.

Dick, Tim, Batman etc.

Originally posted by -Pr-
His pure h2h skill is what i'm talking about. His h2h both as Robin and as Red Hood do more than convince me that he's good enough when you think about who he's fought.

Plus, when you consider the people he's held his own against and how well they've done and the amount of times he's done it, it says a lot about him.

Dick, Tim, Batman etc. but he doesn't have a gun here...also he's never faced a pain soaker like castle before

Originally posted by Starscream M
but he doesn't have a gun here...also he's never faced a pain soaker like castle before

i never said anything about guns.

he's fought batman.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i never said anything about guns.

he's fought batman. castle can take more punishment than batman

Originally posted by Starscream M
castle can take more punishment than batman

even if he could, batman still has insane damage soak.

Originally posted by -Pr-
His pure h2h skill is what i'm talking about. His h2h both as Robin and as Red Hood do more than convince me that he's good enough when you think about who he's fought.

Plus, when you consider the people he's held his own against and how well they've done and the amount of times he's done it, it says a lot about him.

Dick, Tim, Batman etc.
Why would you assume it go h2h? This are two guys who start off quite a bit away from eachother and have loads of weapons.

also no one on that list is more impressive then the people Punisher has hung with.

like Daredevil, Kraven, Wolverine ect.

Originally posted by Starscream M
but he doesn't have a gun here...also he's never faced a pain soaker like castle before
yes he does have a gun here.....why would you assume he doesent?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Why would you assume it go h2h? This are two guys who start off quite a bit away from eachother and have loads of weapons.

also no one on that list is more impressive then the people Punisher has hung with.

like Daredevil, Kraven, Wolverine ect.

Oh, they have guns too? That makes it more interesting...

I'd consider Batman to be superior to those three, and Dick to be the equal or at least close to equal to a couple of em.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
yes he does have a gun here.....why would you assume he doesent? cuz OP didn't specify...then what does castle get?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, they have guns too? That makes it more interesting...

I'd consider Batman to be superior to those three, and Dick to be the equal or at least close to equal to a couple of em.
yes I mean it part of there standard gear.






wait a sec based on what? did you just try and say batman is superior to wolverine melee setting? Dick is equal to him and DD? are you kidding me?

Originally posted by Starscream M
cuz OP didn't specify...then what does castle get?
They get there standard gear, like always..........

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
They get there standard gear, like always.......... whats frank's standard gear?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
yes I mean it part of there standard gear.






wait a sec based on what? did you just try and say batman is superior to wolverine melee setting? Dick is equal to him and DD? are you kidding me?

i thought someone said it was just h2h. my bad.

in skill, i believe batman is superior to wolverine, yes, though i am not about to turn this in to a batman vs wolverine thread.

and i was talking about kraven and dd.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan


wait a sec based on what? did you just try and say batman is superior to wolverine melee setting? Dick is equal to him and DD? are you kidding me? batman is superior to wolverine in skill...

Originally posted by -Pr-
i thought someone said it was just h2h. my bad.

in skill, i believe batman is superior to wolverine, yes, though i am not about to turn this in to a batman vs wolverine thread.

and i was talking about kraven and dd.
yea I dont get why everyone been assuming that despite it never being stated, but I can see why you think that based on a lot of people responses.



well you be dead wrong. Both DD and Wolverine have feats of skill to match batman and in some cases more impressive ones. also based off Logan powerset and skill combind it be a shit load harder to hang with him in melee range then Batman.


Kraven meta human, but yes Dick is more skilled, more of a threat in h2h? debatable. Dick is not on DD level. DD feats easily match Batmans own. You are soorely under playing DD.

Originally posted by Starscream M
batman is superior to wolverine in skill...
prove it.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
prove it. he's hung with the friggin Justice League despite being the only one without any powers

nuff said

Originally posted by Starscream M
he's hung with the friggin Justice League despite being the only one without any powers

nuff said
That doesent make him more skilled.

same arguement could be made for friggin robin green arrow, or clint barton ect.


please don't insult my intelegence with shitty ass arguement like this, it rather pathetic.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
yea I dont get why everyone been assuming that despite it never being stated, but I can see why you think that based on a lot of people responses.



well you be dead wrong. Both DD and Wolverine have feats of skill to match batman and in some cases more impressive ones. also based off Logan powerset and skill combind it be a shit load harder to hang with him in melee range then Batman.


Kraven meta human, but yes Dick is more skilled, more of a threat in h2h? debatable. Dick is not on DD level. DD feats easily match Batmans own. You are soorely under playing DD.

i think you're wrong, but it doesn't matter. as i said, not going to get in to it.

i'm talking about pure skill, though. not effectiveness in melee combat.

i am not underplaying dd. at all. dick is just THAT good.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i think you're wrong, but it doesn't matter. as i said, not going to get in to it.

i'm talking about pure skill, though. not effectiveness in melee combat.

i am not underplaying dd. at all. dick is just THAT good.
I can prove my side by matching any and all of batman feats, so I don't really care if you think I am wrong, becuase if we debated it I guarantee I come out right.



that really doesent matter though when concering who each fought. It be harder to fight Wolverine in melee then Batman (requardless of who you think is more skilled)


except he can't match DD feats of skill. yes you are. You don't even realises that DD is on Batmans level.

for example has Dick ever defeated Batman with a single attack?

DD defeated Captain America with a single attack before.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I can prove my side by matching any and all of batman feats, so I don't really care if you think I am wrong, becuase if we debated it I guarantee I come out right.



that really doesent matter though when concering who each fought. It be harder to fight Wolverine in melee then Batman (requardless of who you think is more skilled)


except he can't match DD feats of skill. yes you are. You don't even realises that DD is on Batmans level.

for example has Dick ever defeated Batman with a single attack?

DD defeated Captain America with a single attack before.

If you say so.

Except that Batman is smarter, and makes up for shortcomings in melee by being more well rounded.

Yes, he can. He can match several of Batman's too. You're underselling Dick here. Big time.

Don't go off-topic, dude.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
That doesent make him more skilled.

same arguement could be made for friggin robin green arrow, or clint barton ect.


please don't insult my intelegence with shitty ass arguement like this, it rather pathetic. lol you condescedning little punk!

ok, batman knows one hit kills

batman knows nerve points

batman has fought CL100s and survived

batman has gone through gauntlets of tough enemies

batman has trained in more arts than logan has heard of

batman has beaten shiva

When you make a fight like this you really need to state what weapons punisher starts out with.......

Originally posted by -Pr-
If you say so.

Except that Batman is smarter, and makes up for shortcomings in melee by being more well rounded.

Yes, he can. He can match several of Batman's too. You're underselling Dick here. Big time.

Don't go off-topic, dude.
if you want go look at the old wolverine vs batman thread, there even one about skill. Me and batdude uses to go at it. We came realization that they are quite equal in skill.

again we were discussing melee fights. what does being more well round have to do with anything? (unless your talking more well rounded melee, fighter becuase again you be quite wrong).

how am I off topic by bringing ip an event that DD did that Dick never be able to match? Again prove dick on that level.

Originally posted by Kinasin
When you make a fight like this you really need to state what weapons punisher starts out with....... agreed

Originally posted by Starscream M
lol you condescedning little punk!

ok, batman knows one hit kills

batman knows nerve points

batman has fought CL100s and survived

batman has gone through gauntlets of tough enemies

batman has trained in more arts than logan has heard of

batman has beaten shiva
thats what I think everytime you attempt to debate with me.

as does every top tier MAer

as does ever top tier MAer

as has ever top tier MAer

as have ever top tier MAer


that is complete and utter lie. Please don't just state lie's it rather pathetic.

wolverine beaten DD, shang-chi captain america ect.

we should probly take this pm, this is getting off topic, and this is match up I actually like.


experiences against training by one of the best.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan


wolverine beaten DD, shang-chi captain america ect.
um I know wolverine would beat batman as well

thats because wolverine has insane HF, adamantium bones, and claws

I said batman is more SKILLED...not that he would beat wolverine in a fight.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
if you want go look at the old wolverine vs batman thread, there even one about skill. Me and batdude uses to go at it. We came realization that they are quite equal in skill.

again we were discussing melee fights. what does being more well round have to do with anything? (unless your talking more well rounded melee, fighter becuase again you be quite wrong).

how am I off topic by bringing ip an event that DD did that Dick never be able to match? Again prove dick on that level.

saying "i'm right and you're wrong" isn't debating dude.

because neither dd nor dick are in this fight.

This match is so intrigueing because it shows what to individuals can do with certain training they recieved by taking it to anti-hero level.

Jason Todd shows just what happens if some one who been trained by Batman can do, if they float into the grey area.

Frank shows just what special opt training amoung many other military training can do when they decide to take the law into there own hands.

it really such an intrigueing match up from so many angles. Gun fight, traps, knife fight, h2h. This fight is pure gold from every level.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
This match is so intrigueing because it shows what to individuals can do with certain training they recieved by taking it to anti-hero level.

Jason Todd shows just what happens if some one who been trained by Batman can do, if they float into the grey area.

Frank shows just what special opt training amoung many other military training can do when they decide to take the law into there own hands.

it really such an intrigueing match up from so many angles. Gun fight, traps, knife fight, h2h. This fight is pure gold from every level. how are there traps?

also, if guns are allowed then Jason Todd should win...he's more skilled

Originally posted by -Pr-
saying "i'm right and you're wrong" isn't debating dude.

because neither dd nor dick are in this fight.
I gladly debate it, but I don't think you be willing to.





but they were being brought up to decide skill level of the two in the thread. It actually is on topic for us to debate which is more skilled becuase it shows which character actaully has the superior feat.

Dick a DD light in many ways.


I love Dick, dont get me wrong. I believe he the best Robin and easily the most skilled h2h. I think his cis really effects his preformances a lot of times.

Originally posted by Starscream M
um I know wolverine would beat batman as well

thats because wolverine has insane HF, adamantium bones, and claws

I said batman is more SKILLED...not that he would beat wolverine in a fight.
He beat all three of them through skill, please keep up.


Originally posted by Starscream M
how are there traps?

also, if guns are allowed then Jason Todd should win...he's more skilled
sorry thought op said city land scape, but I was wrong.




prove he more skilled espicially sinces Frank has far more experiences with guns.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
He beat all three of them through skill, please keep up. oh...so he didn't have his HF or adamantium skeleton? which issues?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan



prove he more skilled espicially sinces Frank has far more experiences with guns. red hood is acrobatic...he can do flips and things and still shoot

frank is more just run and gun

actually frank has way better gun fights than jason

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan


I love Dick

Originally posted by Starscream M
oh...so he didn't have his HF or adamantium skeleton? which issues?
He had them, they just never came into play. becuase he has thoses abilities, doesent take away from the fact he beat them through skill. honestly lets just battle zone this, becuase I love to make you look stupid, and your taking this way off topic.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I gladly debate it, but I don't think you be willing to.





but they were being brought up to decide skill level of the two in the thread. It actually is on topic for us to debate which is more skilled becuase it shows which character actaully has the superior feat.

Dick a DD light in many ways.


I love Dick, dont get me wrong. I believe he the best Robin and easily the most skilled h2h. I think his cis really effects his preformances a lot of times.

i honestly don't see a point.

It was true that up until the last few years, Dick was a "DD lite" but his push in recent years puts him firmly up there with the big boys imo.

and it's only really on topic if we talk about how frank did against dd and jason did against dick.

Originally posted by Starscream M
red hood is acrobatic...he can do flips and things and still shoot

frank is more just run and gun
being able to flip does not make you more skilled with a gun. honestly the shit you come up with.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i honestly don't see a point.

It was true that up until the last few years, Dick was a "DD lite" but his push in recent years puts him firmly up there with the big boys imo.

and it's only really on topic if we talk about how frank did against dd and jason did against dick.
I new that be the answer.


Dude I will gladly compare feats, he not on that level. Close yes, but not on that level yet.



Fine I compare the two. DD who has superior feats to NW, Frank has beaten and held his own. Jason has beaten NW true, but normally with one sided prep and NW cis makes him effectivly hold back.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
being able to flip does not make you more skilled with a gun. of course it does you clown!

being able to aim and shoot while flipping upside down isn't harder than shooting standing up? are you kidding?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I new that be the answer.


Dude I will gladly compare feats, he not on that level. Close yes, but not on that level yet.



Fine I compare the two. DD who has superior feats to NW, Frank has beaten and held his own. Jason has beaten NW true, but normally with one sided prep and NW cis makes him effectivly hold back. Um 1 thing just to clarify Punisher has never beaten DD in a straight up fight and has only ever won due to desperation tactics unless im forgetting one of there fight's but im pretty sure he hasn't beaten him straight up

Originally posted by Starscream M
of course it does you clown!

being able to aim and shoot while flipping upside down isn't harder than shooting standing up? are you kidding?
It makes it ahrder, true, but that does not make you a betetr shot becuase you do that.


your rational is absurd. Because jason flips aorund and punisher doesent, that means he more skilled. do you understand how stupid that sounds?

Punisher doesent flipp around becuase it not in his character, becuase franklin acrobatics leave you open and are a waste of time 95% of the time.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
Um 1 thing just to clarify Punisher has never beaten DD in a straight up fight and has only ever won due to desperation tactics unless im forgetting one of there fight's but im pretty sure he hasn't beaten him straight up

I agree, Punisher had to uses desperate tactics and weapons to take the advantage of DD. Jason Todd does the same thing against NW.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I agree, Punisher had to uses desperate tactics and weapons to take the advantage of DD. Jason Todd does the same thing against NW.
I agree grayson is slighty superior to jason while DD is quite a bit above nightwing imo

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I new that be the answer.


Dude I will gladly compare feats, he not on that level. Close yes, but not on that level yet.



Fine I compare the two. DD who has superior feats to NW, Frank has beaten and held his own. Jason has beaten NW true, but normally with one sided prep and NW cis makes him effectivly hold back.

...why?

He's on the brink if he's not there already, imo.

Ok, so DD is better than Dick. So what about Tim, and Bruce, etc?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I agree, Punisher had to uses desperate tactics and weapons to take the advantage of DD. Jason Todd does the same thing against NW.

i don't think jason ever has to be desperate to take on any of the bat family, bruce included.

What would be the equipment for each here? If they get guns and explosives i give it to castle, h2h I give it to jason

Jason has good equipment as well. Don't dismiss that.

Yes, the guns with special bullets. Still give it to frank.

Originally posted by -Pr-
...why?

He's on the brink if he's not there already, imo.

Ok, so DD is better than Dick. So what about Tim, and Bruce, etc?



i don't think jason ever has to be desperate to take on any of the bat family, bruce included.
why what?


He still wouldent make top tier in MAer thread becuase there several guys still above him. He good and he closes, but his feats arnt up to par.


what do you mean? is DD better then Tim? sure he is. DD at least on par with Batman.





By desperate I mean he relied on weapons to gain the advantage. Something Jason has and does do. Jason also relies on one sided prep something Punisher rarely does when he faces DD if at all. Only desperate melee thing Punisher done is tackle DD out a window and Frank gets shit on for it, but if it was any of the abt family they get praised for there tactical prowesses. Punisher tackle DD out the window because he new DD would have to grab on to the side of the wall which would dislocate his shoulder.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
why what?


He still wouldent make top tier in MAer thread becuase there several guys still above him. He good and he closes, but his feats arnt up to par.


what do you mean? is DD better then Tim? sure he is. DD at least on par with Batman.





By desperate I mean he relied on weapons to gain the advantage. Something Jason has and does do. Jason also relies on one sided prep something Punisher rarely does when he faces DD if at all. Only desperate melee thing Punisher done is tackle DD out a window and Frank gets shit on for it, but if it was any of the abt family they get praised for there tactical prowesses. Punisher tackle DD out the window because he new DD would have to grab on to the side of the wall which would dislocate his shoulder.

why/how did you know that would be the answer?

i feel he's pretty close.

i think batman (bruce) is higher when it comes to pure skill.

i don't think it was a reliance as much as it was just how he liked to operate, tbh.

and i very much disagree that jason relies on prep.

Originally posted by -Pr-
why/how did you know that would be the answer?

i feel he's pretty close.

i think batman (bruce) is higher when it comes to pure skill.

i don't think it was a reliance as much as it was just how he liked to operate, tbh.

and i very much disagree that jason relies on prep.
becuase we have had similar arguements, and when asked if you want to debate it, you say "what would be the point" or something to that effect. which is your chioce, I mean were both stubborn, perhaps your correct and it would be pointless.


Though I agree, there still a difnferences between him and top tiers. There feats are simply better.

well I disagree and I again and more then willing to do feat for feat. His feats arnt superior to DD. Quite frankly I think people way overestimate batman skill level when comparing him to marvel characters.

I disagree, I mean same arguement can be made for punisher as well. he likes to operate like that, but I think it also leans to a dependence of sorts. Both Punisher and Jason are relient upon there weapens and tactical prowesses. There h2h pure skill though impressive to say the least aint up to people like Night wings level or batmans or DD, but they uses there weapondry to even the odds.

I not saying he all ways relies on prep, I am saying he has fought both batman and NW with on sided prep. He done so with out (to NW, I not sure if he ever fought batman with out prep)

Originally posted by thanos-prime
I agree grayson is slighty superior to jason while DD is quite a bit above nightwing imo DD isnt far above Dick neither is Batman imo.

Originally posted by Starscream M
red hood is acrobatic...he can do flips and things and still shoot

And Frank can't?


You realize Taskmaster's used one of his mid-air moves?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
becuase we have had similar arguements, and when asked if you want to debate it, you say "what would be the point" or something to that effect. which is your chioce, I mean were both stubborn, perhaps your correct and it would be pointless.


Though I agree, there still a difnferences between him and top tiers. There feats are simply better.

well I disagree and I again and more then willing to do feat for feat. His feats arnt superior to DD. Quite frankly I think people way overestimate batman skill level when comparing him to marvel characters.

I disagree, I mean same arguement can be made for punisher as well. he likes to operate like that, but I think it also leans to a dependence of sorts. Both Punisher and Jason are relient upon there weapens and tactical prowesses. There h2h pure skill though impressive to say the least aint up to people like Night wings level or batmans or DD, but they uses there weapondry to even the odds.

I not saying he all ways relies on prep, I am saying he has fought both batman and NW with on sided prep. He done so with out (to NW, I not sure if he ever fought batman with out prep)

and i think you're underestimating Batman, but again, that's off topic...