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I think the idea that the dichotomy is "real" or "fake" is a little misleading.

Demonic possession is an interpretation of events occuring to an indivudual, and to call it fake seems to be dismissive of what they are experiencing.

While I don't think demons actually possess people, I don't think it would be fair to say demonic possession is "fake"

Originally posted by inimalist
I think the idea that the dichotomy is "real" or "fake" is a little misleading.

Demonic possession is an interpretation of events occuring to an indivudual, and to call it fake seems to be dismissive of what they are experiencing.

While I don't think demons actually possess people, I don't think it would be fair to say demonic possession is "fake"


You seem to be very knowledgeable, and no offense meant by this comment, but also very intelligent. Not many people even know what a dichotomy is, let alone how to describe it. I have or had a friend in another country that had episodes of a mental nature, who believed that he was himself possessed. One night he needed a place to crash so I let him take my spare room. That night was very bizarre, because he kept coming to my door complaining about how cold it was in my house, even though it wasn't, so my girlfriend gave him another comforter, and that was that, or so we thought.

He came back a little later during the night, and asked me if I'd walk with him to the store because he was unsure whether or not that he could make it there and back by himself. So I obliged. On our way, he kept telling me how he'd felt frozen, it was winter at the time, and I was in Montreal, Canada, so it's not that uncommon to be cold, but then again he was profusely sweating. I thought that it was a fever that he had, maybe the flu, but this did not explain why he was salivating like a rabid animal.

I went with him to the clinic the next morning, but the Doctor could not find anything wrong with him. Later on he told me that he'd believed that he was possessed by a "Martial Arts Spirit" or something attached to it. He stayed with us for about a week, until my Girl started to get antsy at which point I had to ask him to leave.

We hadn't spoken to him for several months, until one day he popped up, saying how he was interested in going out for drinks, and a few games of pool. So we made it a guys night out, and picked up a couple other friends for a friendly pool tourney.

I noticed that he did not drink much, he did have a couple beers, but no more than two. A little later during the night, he began acting out, and getting loud, even aggressive. So a couple Bouncers told him to take it down a notch, he then flew into a rage performing bicycle kicks, which missed their faces by mere inches. Oh yeah, my friend came in 2nd place in the Tai Kwon Do World championships earlier that year and was quite proficient in the sport.

One of the bouncers came to us and asked us if we could calm him down, which we eventually did, and left. He apologized to us all after the event, and said that he would be back, and that he had to use the phone. We waited, and suddenly we heard what appeared to be barking noises coming from the direction that he went. So we went over to see what the hell was going on. It was him, he was out in the middle of the street barking at two Police Officers in the middle of the street.

Anyways he was arrested. I haven't seen him since that night, but I can't help but remeber him telling me that he was possessed, and that he needed help.

Originally posted by Stoic
You seem to be very knowledgeable, and no offense meant by this comment, but also very intelligent.

ha, hardly, this just happend to be a subject I understand well

look, obviously I don't think your friend is actually possessed by anything in a real sense, but I do think that anyone trying to broach the issues he has should look at his experiences as being real, at least from his perspective.

I tend to think a lot of psychologists dismiss the personal relevance of experiences induced through mental illness, and that prevents them from helping people like your friend. It might actually be beneficial that he thinks he is "possessed", because that may act as an interpretive framework for his own ability to control his actions.

I have friends who have similar problems. If anyone saw pictures from the recent G20 protests, you undoubtedly saw a close personal friend of mine, who has serious psychological problems. It is unfortunate that all societies, at this point, really have left these people to their own devices. Because they aren't so disabled that they require constant supervision, the state totally washes their hands of responsibility, and families/friends suffer the burden of the illness.

Look, I'm sure this is meaningless coming from me, but you are a good friend to this person, regardless of anything they might say.

Bullshit.

Originally posted by inimalist
I tend to think a lot of psychologists dismiss the personal relevance of experiences induced through mental illness, and that prevents them from helping people like your friend. A good psychologist will work with the person's belief system, at least as a starting point, eventually tying in what other approaches may be useful.

As for whether demonic possession is real or not: I think not. But I do believe some extraordinary phenomena can occur when a person's subconscious is engaged (eg, voice change). As for the more extreme claims, like paranormal powers, I regard that as heresay, though I don't reject the possibility on principle.

Originally posted by inimalist
ha, hardly, this just happend to be a subject I understand well

look, obviously I don't think your friend is actually possessed by anything in a real sense, but I do think that anyone trying to broach the issues he has should look at his experiences as being real, at least from his perspective.

I tend to think a lot of psychologists dismiss the personal relevance of experiences induced through mental illness, and that prevents them from helping people like your friend. It might actually be beneficial that he thinks he is "possessed", because that may act as an interpretive framework for his own ability to control his actions.

I have friends who have similar problems. If anyone saw pictures from the recent G20 protests, you undoubtedly saw a close personal friend of mine, who has serious psychological problems. It is unfortunate that all societies, at this point, really have left these people to their own devices. Because they aren't so disabled that they require constant supervision, the state totally washes their hands of responsibility, and families/friends suffer the burden of the illness.

Look, I'm sure this is meaningless coming from me, but you are a good friend to this person, regardless of anything they might say.
That's interesting. I'd curious how that relates to the way you were really dismissive of possession in this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=514193

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's interesting. I'd curious how that relates to the way you were really dismissive of possession in this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=514193

I wouldn't characterize myself as being dismissive so much as hostile, to which I would say that I still support the idea that those who perform exerscisms should be charged criminally.

The specific excercism mentioned in that thread involved the forced confinement and essential torture to death of a severly mentally handicapped girl.

Its not really related, I don't think, as I would never use that sort of hostility when engaging with someone who thought they were possessed, especially if I wanted to help them.

It could happen the devil is real and I had heard of people being possess by him.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
It could happen the devil is real and I had heard of people being possess by him.

How do you know he is not in you right now? Boo!

I'm catholic and even I think exorcism is bullshit.

exorcism is torture and should be prosecuted

Didn't they used to call people suffering from multiple personality disorders, schizophrenia, and the like being demonic possession? Of course it's all bollocks, it's merely ignorant humanitys way of explaining things they are to well ignorant to comprehend.

Originally posted by Liberator
Didn't they used to call people suffering from multiple personality disorders, schizophrenia, and the like being demonic possession? Of course it's all bollocks, it's merely ignorant humanitys way of explaining things they are to well ignorant to comprehend.

lol, even people with disorders that hollywood doesn't think are sexy

I think that there are manipulators who can make people think almost anything. I also think there are very gullible people. Thirdly, I believe that there are some things that the human mind cannot understand and so try to categorize into slots that may be too simple.

So you see, there are a lot of "ifs" and "mays," and "mights," "maybes." I don't think anyone can be very sure about anything in this subject../

Originally posted by siriuswriter
I think that there are manipulators who can make people think almost anything. I also think there are very gullible people. Thirdly, I believe that there are some things that the human mind cannot understand and so try to categorize into slots that may be too simple.

So you see, there are a lot of "ifs" and "mays," and "mights," "maybes." I don't think anyone can be very sure about anything in this subject../

Are you sure about that?

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
It could happen the devil is real and I had heard of people being possess by him.

Why would the Devil blow his cover by possessing young abused girls and making a scene?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How do you know he is not in you right now? Boo!

lol I hope not.

Biblicaly speaking, yes. And before a bunch of cynical atheists jump on the bandwagon of 'They didn't know about mental illness back then, so they thought it was the devil.....duuuur!" (i added the duuuur part) The new testament is absolutely clear the difference between possession and illness. Jesus cast out a demon AND healed a man with epilepsy in the same paragraph. So there. As for the subject: Modern day possessios are fake. The only reason there were possessions in the NT was simply to show off jesus power. Familiar spirits can't take someone over without concent. In the OT there was only one possession(simon the 1st king) and god was the one who put the evil spirit in him. Which, in my opinion, was a dick move.

Does the original text actually say epilepsy? Or did it merely list the symptoms of epilepsy, because there's a huge difference.

Originally posted by JacopeX
I'm catholic and even I think exorcism is bullshit.

I am catholic as well but I do believe that it is real.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Are you sure about that?



Yes.... I mean... no! ... I mean.... gaaaahhhh! *nervous breakdown*

Originally posted by siriuswriter


Yes.... I mean... no! ... I mean.... gaaaahhhh! *nervous breakdown*

Yes the original said epilepsy. He also healed a mentally ill guy who heard voices, calling him a lunatic. Another time the disciples thought a man was possessed but couldn't cast out his demon, the asked jesus why they couldn't and he said he was a lunatic.

it's fake

There is no such thing as a devil or demons. Has anyone ever proven it? They are all man created to explain things not understood at the time and expecially scare tactics..i.e.money for the church. I believe that their are poles of negative and positive energies and people can react to whatever they choose

A long time ago when I use to medatite I would actly hear and see Demons all around me after I was done so I gave that up right away.

Have you seen a psychiatrist about it?

Yes I did.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Yes I did.

Did you continue the treatments?

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
A long time ago when I use to medatite I would actly hear and see Demons all around me after I was done so I gave that up right away. Did you ever draw a picture of what you saw?

Yes, I suppose that demonic possession could be possible.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
A long time ago when I use to medatite I would actly hear and see Demons all around me after I was done so I gave that up right away.

I've had similar experiences but I know I'm not crazy, it's just we do have the ability to "trance out" and have some pretty weird experiences.

Food for thought: our ordinary waking state is akin to a trance (ie, as you go about your daily business, how often are you on 'autopilot'), and meditation (attention-training) is the means to "detrancing."

Originally posted by Mindship
Food for thought: our ordinary waking state is akin to a trance (ie, as you go about your daily business, how often are you on 'autopilot'), and meditation (attention-training) is the means to "detrancing."

Sounds like something a demon would say.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sounds like something a demon would say. renske

Originally posted by siriuswriter
I think that there are manipulators who can make people think almost anything. I also think there are very gullible people. Thirdly, I believe that there are some things that the human mind cannot understand and so try to categorize into slots that may be too simple.

So you see, there are a lot of "ifs" and "mays," and "mights," "maybes." I don't think anyone can be very sure about anything in this subject../

My thoughts exactly.

We can't really be too sure of anything, much less a subject we really know nothing of.

No I did not have to draw anything and I got better so I did not have to go to treatment anymore I was also going through a depression at the time.

Originally posted by Mindship
Food for thought: our ordinary waking state is akin to a trance (ie, as you go about your daily business, how often are you on 'autopilot'), and meditation (attention-training) is the means to "detrancing."

?

certain actions might be so common our brain is able to do them without need for constant attentional monitoring, however, I would certainly question the wisdom of anything that would claim or basic automatic functions should be a constant source of attention, as such would really hamper our abilities as a human, and really works against everything our brain is made to do...

Might be real havent seen any proof.

Originally posted by Deadline
Might be real havent seen any proof.

The Easter Bunny might also be real, haven't seen any proof.

Many times a person will see things based on what their beliefs are. I remember reading that people used to see fairies all the time, but now their belief in them has changed and now they don't. The same with demons. If you really believe that such creatures believe, then your mind will create them.

I think the mind will try to make sense of certain emotions and even create images.

Originally posted by inimalist
?

certain actions might be so common our brain is able to do them without need for constant attentional monitoring, however, I would certainly question the wisdom of anything that would claim or basic automatic functions should be a constant source of attention, as such would really hamper our abilities as a human, and really works against everything our brain is made to do... In terms of day-to-day, ordinary functioning, absolutely it is beneficial to relegate some functioning to autopilot. Indeed, I would think that we can function as well as we do an automatic was evolutionarily selected for.

However, sometimes being more aware is advantageous, eg, 'situational awareness'.

Think of it this way: the aim, as it were, of meditation is not so much to negate autopilot but to integrate it into a context of choice. This way, instead of always responding to a situation with a habitual response (which has always produced a 'good enough' result), by being more aware, I can evaluate a situation fresh and decide whether a different course of action would produce a better result.

This is how I better remember names of people I meet at parties.

Originally posted by Mindship
...

This is how I better remember names of people I meet at parties.

Good job, Mindset.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The Easter Bunny might also be real, haven't seen any proof.


I think I see what you're getting at but it doesn't seem to be a good point.

Originally posted by Deadline
I think I see what you're getting at but it doesn't seem to be a good point.

Why?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Good job, Mindset. facepalm2

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why?

There are alot of things that could be considered to be supernatural that are plausible. I think the existance of demonic/angelic type beings is plausible but comparing into a specfic type of being with specific characteristics is not a good comparison.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I am catholic as well but I do believe that it is real. Typical.

Originally posted by Deadline
There are alot of things that could be considered to be supernatural that are plausible. I think the existance of demonic/angelic type beings is plausible but comparing into a specfic type of being with specific characteristics is not a good comparison.

See, here is where we differ: supernatural does not exist. If something exists, it exists only by natural means. We may not understand these natural means, but they do exist, and with enough time, we could understand them. Therefore a supernatural demon is as real as the Easter Bunny. If demon exist, then they are not supernatural, and in effect they are not demons.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
See, here is where we differ: supernatural does not exist. If something exists, it exists only by natural means. We may not understand these natural means, but they do exist, and with enough time, we could understand them. Therefore a supernatural demon is as real as the Easter Bunny. If demon exist, then they are not supernatural, and in effect they are not demons.

I dont think so. As I said to you in a prior discussion supernatural is just something that seems to defy the laws of nature.

I don't see the logic were something existing stops it from being what it initially was. So if you prove that God or telepathy exists they stop being telepathy or God? Its like you're contradicting yourself.

Originally posted by Deadline
I dont think so. As I said to you in a prior discussion supernatural is just something that seems to defy the laws of nature.

I don't see the logic were something existing stops it from being what it initially was. So if you prove that God or telepathy exists they stop being telepathy or God? Its like you're contradicting yourself.

It is not rather they exist, it is the mechanism by which they exist. A natural god would not fit the biblical definition of a god. Does that make a natural god just a powerful alien?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is not rather they exist, it is the mechanism by which they exist. A natural god would not fit the biblical definition of a god.

Why does it have to fit the biblical definiton of god? So if God isn't infinite, ominpotent etc then its not a god now? When did this happen....wow.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

Does that make a natural god just a powerful alien?

It fits the defintion, absolutely.

Originally posted by Deadline
Why does it have to fit the biblical definiton of god? So if God isn't infinite, ominpotent etc then its not a god now? When did this happen....wow.



It fits the defintion, absolutely.

You can call a lizard a dragon, but does that make a dragon real?

http://www.treehugger.com/komodo-dragon.jpg

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You can call a lizard a dragon, but does that make a dragon real?

http://www.treehugger.com/komodo-dragon.jpg


Thats faulty logic. A lizard is nothing like a dragon an extremely powerful alien is like a god. Especially since you don't have to be infinite, omnipotent, eternal to fit the defintion of a god.

Hell a lizard isn't even big enough.

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats faulty logic. A lizard is nothing like a dragon an extremely powerful alien is like a god. Especially since you don't have to be infinite, omnipotent, eternal to fit the defintion of a god.

Hell a lizard isn't even big enough.

Why do you have to have wings to be a dragon?

If you detach dragon from the myth, then dragons to exist. The same is true with god. The common definition of god in the western world is in biblical mythology. If you detach god from the myth, then a god exists. However, you don't find knights lining up to fight Komodo Dragons, and you don't find people worshiping an alien (at least not yet).

Originally posted by Mindship
In terms of day-to-day, ordinary functioning, absolutely it is beneficial to relegate some functioning to autopilot. Indeed, I would think that we can function as well as we do an automatic was evolutionarily selected for.

However, sometimes being more aware is advantageous, eg, 'situational awareness'.

Think of it this way: the aim, as it were, of meditation is not so much to negate autopilot but to integrate it into a context of choice. This way, instead of always responding to a situation with a habitual response (which has always produced a 'good enough' result), by being more aware, I can evaluate a situation fresh and decide whether a different course of action would produce a better result.

This is how I better remember names of people I meet at parties.

can you though?

a lot of this "context of choice" is entirely illusionary, its not as though your conscious mind has access to a lot of information these automatic systems don't.

I hear what you are saying, and it does seem just like saying "think before you act" (if I can bastardize your point a little), so I don't disagree entirely, I just don't tend to think more conscious awareness of things is really that beneficial.

For instance, in terms of habitual behaviour, you are just as likely to intellectualize why the habits are good than judge them impartially, if not moreso.

Originally posted by the ninjak
I've had similar experiences but I know I'm not crazy, it's just we do have the ability to "trance out" and have some pretty weird experiences.

That is true also when you are depressed your mind is all strange so seeing what I saw had alot to do with mainly the depression and nothing else but I never went back to meditating anyway.

Originally posted by Mindship
Did you ever draw a picture of what you saw?

No but that would be interesting also I am not a good drawer.

Originally posted by inimalist
can you though?Yes. If, say, I'm in a social situation that makes me nervous and I respond out of habit (not really paying attention), I may be missing opportunities I wouldn't be if more aware. Eg, I could calm my breathing, better remember so-n-so's name, disregard any negative thoughts that might make me self-cognizant, etc. And people can pick up on this. You come across as more confident, more impressive, which could, eg, win you business opportunities. And it is well known that so-called situational awareness is very beneficial. The single most powerful element told to women, eg, if walking alone somewhere, is be aware. Don't walk with your head in the clouds. Attackers relish the element of surprise.

I hear what you are saying, and it does seem just like saying "think before you act" (if I can bastardize your point a little), so I don't disagree entirely, I just don't tend to think more conscious awareness of things is really that beneficial.I understand what you're saying, and again, some systems as a rule you can leave to themselves with no ill effect. As an extreme example: a yogi can control his heart beat...which would be advantageous if trapped in a tiny clear, airtight box. But as a rule, it's not something you want to take conscious control of.

Originally posted by inimalist
For instance, in terms of habitual behaviour, you are just as likely to intellectualize why the habits are good than judge them impartially, if not moreso. Some habits are good, and again the idea is not necessarily to break them, just not be bound by them, so that one can have a choice.

I'm also talking largely about what some psychologists might call the consensual trance: the common/shared schema of "how the world is" which is often expressed via what people say to themselves (their inner dialogue). Much of how we view the world, ourselves, how it all relates is dictated by this autopilot inner dialogue, and often it's not pleasant (people are, after all, their own worst enemies). By bringing these mentations to awareness, we can evaluate them, see if they ring true or not, and if so inclined, take steps to change them, or at least let them blow by without attaching to them, ie, w/o letting them determine our self-worth.

Another extreme example can be taken from the mystical texts. By detaching from our inner machinations, we get to see reality more clearly. But this is debatable in its own right (as is the idea of "choice", since many do not ascribe to the mystical POV.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
No but that would be interesting also I am not a good drawer. It's probably better that you're not. In this case, it would be better to draw from the heart, so to speak, than go for technical accuracy.

I come back here and just get more depressed...

Yea I guess so and I hope you did not get depressed because of this site.

Yea I see what you are saying

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Clarification: if you put aside the myth, then the fact that something has a name means it is that. Did that help? No. If you didn't know what a dragon was, and I told you about a Komodo dragon, then you would think that dragons do exist? Did that help? If not, lets just move on.

Supernatural is detached from natural. To find a definition for something that is supernatural, you cannot go to nature. Instead you have to go to mythology. So, if we talk about demons or gods, we are stuck with mythology as our only source for information. If something we think is supernatural is found in nature, then it is no longer supernatural, and not longer connected to mythology. Are you saying that if something is supernatural it is fiction or just beyond all natural comprehension?

Originally posted by The MISTER
Are you saying that if something is supernatural it is fiction or just beyond all natural comprehension?

The thing is if you look at mythology there is time travel as well. Time travel is clearly supernatural because it has its roots in mythology.

I could have sworn there are Greek myths with people going to other planets, but don't quote me on that.

Originally posted by The MISTER
Are you saying that if something is supernatural it is fiction or just beyond all natural comprehension?

There is no such think thing as supernatural. Something is ether natural or it does not exist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no such think thing as supernatural. Something is ether natural or it does not exist.

I know but if something in mythology turns out to exist it doesn't neccsarily change anything. Supernatural is also something that seems to defy natures laws.

Originally posted by Deadline
I know but if something in mythology turns out to exist it doesn't neccsarily change anything. Supernatural is also something that seems to defy natures laws.

Mythology is not always supernatural. Mythology talks about people flying. Now a days, people fly all the time. Supernatural by definition always defies natural.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Mythology is not always supernatural. Mythology talks about people flying. Now a days, people fly all the time.

So why do gods, angels and demons have to be inherently supernatural then? It's like you're picking and choosing.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

Supernatural by definition always defies natural.

No it doesn't.

http://www.answers.com/topic/supernatural

1.Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2.Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3.Of or relating to a deity.
4.Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5.Of or relating to the miraculous.



You also agreed its a logical defintion.

Originally posted by Deadline
So why do gods, angels and demons have to be inherently supernatural then? It's like you're picking and choosing.



No it doesn't.

http://www.answers.com/topic/supernatural

1.Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2.Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3.Of or relating to a deity.
4.Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5.Of or relating to the miraculous.



You also agreed its a logical defintion.

A natural god would not be supernatural. However, most gods that humans believe in are supernatural.

1. There is nothing outside of the natural world. This is just a definition, and not proof there is anything outside of the natural world.
2. The appearance of supernatural is not always supernatural. For example, a magician can appear to have supernatural powers, but we all know they do not.
3. All gods are supernatural, except for natural gods.
4. see #3
5. see #2

There is nothing I have said that disagrees with this definition, under the context of the topic.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no such think thing as supernatural. Something is ether natural or it does not exist. Or natural and not understood.

^ Don't get him started.

Yeah, I know.