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1. Fight
2. Order in Molecular Manip power

1- Surfer stomp
2- Toss up... for now.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
1- Surfer stomp
2- Toss up... for now. how does surfer stomp?

SS has feats and his powers are greater bottom line! Really what has Manhattan done on SS level anyway ?!

I don't think Surfer can dish out the universe destroying blasts that Sersi has easily defended against in the past.

Surfer wins in both.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer wins in both. no he doesnt

yes he does!

Current Silver Surfer crumb stomp both Sersi and Manhatten! Feats to prove it!

Originally posted by the Darkone
Current Silver Surfer crumb stomp both Sersi and Manhatten! Feats to prove it! actually sersi has feats much above silver surfer to be honest

uh no! Silver Surfer doesn't have limitation as sersi can't affect subatomic as SS can.

1: By feats surfer
2: Manhatten.

Originally posted by the Darkone
uh no! Silver Surfer doesn't have limitation as sersi can't affect subatomic as SS can.

Except she doesn't have that limitation and has done it on panel...

SS punches her head off

1 SS

2 they're probably about even

Originally posted by 753
1 SS

2 they're probably about even do you think apoc is even with them too?

Surfer wins both scenarios.

DM is weak, imo. just lucky to be in a universe with no superheroes. Surfer would easily duplicate every feat that Manhattan did.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
do you think apoc is even with them too?
lol,

Surfer could turn Apoc into a table, then eat dinner off of it (with Sersi). DM would be the waiter.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
do you think apoc is even with them too? I don't think apocalypse is a real matter manipulator to begin with.

Originally posted by 753
I don't think apocalypse is a real matter manipulator to begin with. why not?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
why not?
he only has molecular control over his own form, iirc. nothing in the league of DM, nevermind Surfer.

I don't know about this one. Manhattan as far as I'm aware doesn't feel pain and can reform himself at will. He can see through time copy himself and his matter manip is absurd. His power output if he copies doesn't seem to have any limit so I say Dr. for the win just because in Watchmen comic there is nothing that really hurts him or stops him for any length of time. I don't know how effective the surfer or sersi would be.

Originally posted by Uriel005
I don't know about this one. Manhattan as far as I'm aware doesn't feel pain and can reform himself at will. He can see through time copy himself and his matter manip is absurd. His power output if he copies doesn't seem to have any limit so I say Dr. for the win just because in Watchmen comic there is nothing that really hurts him or stops him for any length of time. I don't know how effective the surfer or sersi would be.
True but look at the universe he lives in... He is the only person with powers it's pretty obvious why he seems so superior. SS still has much better feats actual combat experience, much much greater speed, and power output at insane levels he would be way to much for manhattan period. Sersi is no pushover but SS would still beat her quite easily. In order of matter manip it's either surfer, Sersi manhattan or seers surfer manhattan. I personally believe SS has an edge over Sersi tho..

Its really impossible to judge manhatten in a fight considering his lack of feats.And he never fought anything superhuman.

Originally posted by Uriel005
I don't know about this one. Manhattan as far as I'm aware doesn't feel pain and can reform himself at will. He can see through time copy himself and his matter manip is absurd. His power output if he copies doesn't seem to have any limit so I say Dr. for the win just because in Watchmen comic there is nothing that really hurts him or stops him for any length of time. I don't know how effective the surfer or sersi would be. As far as everyone cuold tell, manhatan couldnt even prevent or win a nuclear war against his universe's USSR. SS could dismantle every nuclear warhead and cripple every machine on the planet with a thought.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
actually sersi has feats much above silver surfer to be honest

False...................... and shut up.

Surfer wins both
that is all.

Originally posted by Naija boy
False...................... and shut up.

Surfer wins both
that is all. you shut up

Dr manhatten is like Zuras. characters with amzing potential but no feats.


no one knows what they are capeable of especially doc manhatten.

Originally posted by janus77
lol,

Surfer could turn Apoc into a table, then eat dinner off of it (with Sersi). DM would be the waiter.

Apoc has complete control over himself. Surfer wouldn't have any luck transmuting him. And he wouldn't even think about doing that if they were to fight.

Playing the devil's advocate here.

Doctor Manhattan never said he couldn't stop the nuclear war Ozzymandius did and made Manhattan doubt himself with tachion disruption making him think that he couldn't stop the nukes. Personally I will go with what Manhattan himself says of his abilities and what I have seen.
1) Self replication
2) matter manipulation at will
3) Cannot feel pain/cannot be knocked out even when reduced to his component atoms and other than being atomized has never been hurt as Dr. Manhattan.
4)Can see through his personal time and even with tachions blocking this it doesn't stop any of his other abilities.

Idk I think that he just doesnt have enough feats to make this a good fight. But because as far as we are aware he is intended to be a near infallible entity and has yet to be stopped, yes he was tricked but even that took a decade of prep time and billions in research. So based on the fact that he has never been beaten and it is unknown if power cosmic effects him in any meaningful way I may have to give it to the Manhattan. Of course I am not discounting Sersi or Surfer by any means but the fact of the matter is that John does not use his powers often or to the extent that he could use them because he only does what he sees himself in time doing and goes along with that so what Dr. Manhattan's power level is I couldn't tell you. This fight is moot unless Dr. Manhattan's power level and feat list is ever flushed out and a limit or something even approaching a challenge is presented to him.

Can we include movie feats in this just to try and bump the number a bit.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Playing the devil's advocate here.

Doctor Manhattan never said he couldn't stop the nuclear war Ozzymandius did and made Manhattan doubt himself with tachion disruption making him think that he couldn't stop the nukes. Personally I will go with what Manhattan himself says of his abilities and what I have seen.
1) Self replication
2) matter manipulation at will
3) Cannot feel pain/cannot be knocked out even when reduced to his component atoms and other than being atomized has never been hurt as Dr. Manhattan.
4)Can see through his personal time and even with tachions blocking this it doesn't stop any of his other abilities.

Idk I think that he just doesnt have enough feats to make this a good fight. But because as far as we are aware he is intended to be a near infallible entity and has yet to be stopped, yes he was tricked but even that took a decade of prep time and billions in research. So based on the fact that he has never been beaten and it is unknown if power cosmic effects him in any meaningful way I may have to give it to the Manhattan. Of course I am not discounting Sersi or Surfer by any means but the fact of the matter is that John does not use his powers often or to the extent that he could use them because he only does what he sees himself in time doing and goes along with that so what Dr. Manhattan's power level is I couldn't tell you. This fight is moot unless Dr. Manhattan's power level and feat list is ever flushed out and a limit or something even approaching a challenge is presented to him. The american military did not believe he could stop nuclear holocaust either, their projections have him stopping 40%of russian nuclear warheads and the rest destroying the USA ten times over. There is a text by an analyst within the book saying that manhatan could not win the cold war for the USA if it ever came to it, because the russians had decuplicated their nuclear power since he was presented to the public and would rather burn with the whole world than be subjugated. The story's intention was that he could not do it himself and it was a major point within it: escalation and deflagration can only lead to assured mutual destruction and not even God can save the humans from themselves, if they start nuclear war.

He defeated the vietcong in a week was it? SS would solo the world's armies in an hour.

There isn't a single feat manhatan has acomplished that SS couldn't or hasn't replicated. Including seeing the future, although SS must focus to do it.

Originally posted by 753
I don't think apocalypse is a real matter manipulator to begin with.
But he pressed a button once!

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Apoc has complete control over himself. Surfer wouldn't have any luck transmuting him. And he wouldn't even think about doing that if they were to fight.


0.000 seconds: Fight Starts.
0.010 seconds: Surfer KOs Apocalypse.
0.011 seconds: Surfer xmutes Apocalypse into a table.
1.500 seconds: Surfer invites Sersi on top of the Apocatable for some tabeltop lovin.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Apoc has complete control over himself. Surfer wouldn't have any luck transmuting him. And he wouldn't even think about doing that if they were to fight. So this would pin apocalypse's control over himself against SS's control over matter and the strongest would succeed. My money is on the SS.

Originally posted by 753
So this would pin apocalypse's control over himself against SS's control over matter and the strongest would succeed. My money is on the SS.

Or SS could spend the first .01 seconds of the fight KOing Apoc in the face THEN Xmute him while he's lying unconscious?

Surfer doesn't need to KO Apocalypse, could just switch off the X-gene in the first 0.00001 second, then transmute him in to the "Apoctable"

Originally posted by Uriel005
Playing the devil's advocate here.

Doctor Manhattan never said he couldn't stop the nuclear war Ozzymandius did and made Manhattan doubt himself with tachion disruption making him think that he couldn't stop the nukes. Personally I will go with what Manhattan himself says of his abilities and what I have seen.
1) Self replication
2) matter manipulation at will
3) Cannot feel pain/cannot be knocked out even when reduced to his component atoms and other than being atomized has never been hurt as Dr. Manhattan.
4)Can see through his personal time and even with tachions blocking this it doesn't stop any of his other abilities.

Idk I think that he just doesnt have enough feats to make this a good fight. But because as far as we are aware he is intended to be a near infallible entity and has yet to be stopped, yes he was tricked but even that took a decade of prep time and billions in research. So based on the fact that he has never been beaten and it is unknown if power cosmic effects him in any meaningful way I may have to give it to the Manhattan. Of course I am not discounting Sersi or Surfer by any means but the fact of the matter is that John does not use his powers often or to the extent that he could use them because he only does what he sees himself in time doing and goes along with that so what Dr. Manhattan's power level is I couldn't tell you. This fight is moot unless Dr. Manhattan's power level and feat list is ever flushed out and a limit or something even approaching a challenge is presented to him. Manhatten never thought he couldn't stop the nukes.But because the tachyons were blocking him and he said that tachyons traveled back in time after nukes are blown then he concluded that nuclear warfare had happened.

BBZ, Manhatten never demonstrated power or scope to even begin to challenge Surfer. Manhatten took ages to try and develop an energy source for Earth, that could replace existing ones. Surfer could create that with but a thought (indeed, if he wanted he could give everyone the Power Cosmic).

If you put "God Cable" in the Watchmen universe, he'd be able to replicate all of the matter manipulation feats of DM, imo.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Manhatten never thought he couldn't stop the nukes.But because the tachyons were blocking him and he said that tachyons traveled back in time after nukes are blown then he concluded that nuclear warfare had happened. Manhattan never says shit about it one way or the other, but the world at large does and it's clearly the story's point that he can't stop it.

manhattan both scenarios.

Originally posted by janus77
BBZ, Manhatten never demonstrated power or scope to even begin to challenge Surfer. Manhatten took ages to try and develop an energy source for Earth, that could replace existing ones. Surfer could create that with but a thought (indeed, if he wanted he could give everyone the Power Cosmic).

If you put "God Cable" in the Watchmen universe, he'd be able to replicate all of the matter manipulation feats of DM, imo. He would,IMO be able to be a challange but yeah surfer would win easily.I never said otherwise.Originally posted by 753
Manhattan never says shit about it one way or the other, but the world at large does and it's clearly the story's point that he can't stop it. This is true.But even surfer might have trouble destroying 54,000 nukes in a few minutes.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Can we include movie feats in this just to try and bump the number a bit. what are they?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
what are they?
In the movie Ozy managed to replicate a portion of Jon's power in order to wipe out 12 major cities across the world.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
In the movie Ozy managed to replicate a portion of Jon's power in order to wipe out 12 major cities across the world. so he is very uber then

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
so he is very uber then
He's Godlike by his Universe's standards, but in DC or Marvel he'd just be another Herald.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He's Godlike by his Universe's standards, but in DC or Marvel he'd just be another Herald. Yeah.The problem with manhatten is he never had any super enemies to fight.But we know he can't be beaten with physical force.

If by physical force you mean punches, etc.

Originally posted by 753
The american military did not believe he could stop nuclear holocaust either, their projections have him stopping 40%of russian nuclear warheads and the rest destroying the USA ten times over. There is a text by an analyst within the book saying that manhatan could not win the cold war for the USA if it ever came to it, because the russians had decuplicated their nuclear power since he was presented to the public and would rather burn with the whole world than be subjugated. The story's intention was that he could not do it himself and it was a major point within it: escalation and deflagration can only lead to assured mutual destruction and not even God can save the humans from themselves, if they start nuclear war.

He defeated the vietcong in a week was it?

Actually it was 99% of the Soviet Arsenal, and we have no idea how accurate this estimate was, it might have been over-optimistic or it might have been pessimistic.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Actually it was 99% of the Soviet Arsenal, and we have no idea how accurate this estimate was, it might have been over-optimistic or it might have been pessimistic. I'll re-read it, but they were nevertheless certain that the USA along with most of the rest of the world would be wiped out and I would trusts their projections as it concerned writer's intent and was voiced by 3 authority sources within the book, the military specialist article, the us military and ozymandias

Originally posted by Mindset
If by physical force you mean punches, etc. Yes thats what i mean.Originally posted by Omega Vision
Actually it was 99% of the Soviet Arsenal, and we have no idea how accurate this estimate was, it might have been over-optimistic or it might have been pessimistic. I believe they state it was either 51-54000

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
0.000 seconds: Fight Starts.
0.010 seconds: Surfer KOs Apocalypse.
0.011 seconds: Surfer xmutes Apocalypse into a table.
1.500 seconds: Surfer invites Sersi on top of the Apocatable for some tabeltop lovin.

That would never happen because Silver Surfer would never do that. Because of his CIS and the fact that he's never blitzed anyone in 0.010 seconds as powerful as Apocalypse.

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer doesn't need to KO Apocalypse, could just switch off the X-gene in the first 0.00001 second, then transmute him in to the "Apoctable"

And that would work how? Apoc has celestial tech in him. his celestial tech > His X-gene.

totally baseless speculation re: "Celestial Tech". got any proof that it prevents Apocalypse's X-gene from being switched off?

on-panel, Apocalypse calls it Celestial artefacts, and goes onto show that he doesn't really understand it.

switching off the X-gene guarantees a humiliatingly quick win for Surfer. nothing the Celestial artefacts would do about that.
Originally posted by TheTyrant
That would never happen because Silver Surfer would never do that. Because of his CIS and the fact that he's never blitzed anyone in 0.010 seconds as powerful as Apocalypse.
of course it would and of course Surfer has blitzed opponents as powerful as Apocalypse (Nova, for example).


Surfer is a little more ruthless now.

My point in all this is that there is no power comparison for Dr.Manhattan. Supervillains don't exist and he never had any cause to test the limits of his power beyond the needs of a conventional army. For all we know he could have a trillion other powers that remain unknown. Any fight with Manhattan with anyone Herald level and up is moot because he has no comparison to know how he would do against them. Also for people arguing that he can see the future and that he would know all future powers. He would never need them and therefore would never think to look into them so unless some future event forced him to explore the limits of his power he would never know.

But anyone below Herald level gets taken out quick because his CIS when it comes to killing is nonexistant. You do something evil and he blasts you into gory bits.

Take Manhattan out of this fight there just isn't enough info on him to know how he would deal with someone on surfer or sersi level.

The fact that Manhatten see in the future doesn't help him at all, since he can change the future. It's told numerous times in the comic.

Also, what Manhatten can do, Surfer did it better, and did other things that Manhatten never came close to do.

Also, on one hand, Manhatten is said to not be able to save USA from an attack of Russia, while Surfer have feats suggesting that he have the capabilities to pwn pretty much every contries easely that doesn't count Reed Richards or Doctor Doom in it.

The only one reasons why Surfer doesn't seems as powerful as Manhatten is that Manhatten doesn't have Thor in his universe, he doesn't have Hulk, he doesn't have Doctor Strange, he doesn't have the Marvel family (Genis, Phyla, etc), he doesn't have Quasar, nor Thanos, and most importantly, Manhatten don't have, in his universe, beings like Galactus, the Watchers, the Celestials, ****ing' Death and Eternity, etc.

In Marvel, Manhatten would be a powerful reality warper, maybe on the league of Sersi, but far from the power lvl of someone like the Surfer.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster


In Marvel, Manhatten would be a powerful reality warper, maybe on the league of Sersi, but far from the power lvl of someone like the Surfer. its not reality warping its molecular manip and sersi is above silver surfer when it comes to moleclular manip

SS can't beat Manhattan. But Manhattan can beat him.

Doesn't matter who feats are greater. It's all about who will win and why.

Originally posted by h1a8
SS can't beat Manhattan. But Manhattan can beat him.

Doesn't matter who feats are greater. It's all about who will win and why.

-Draining his energy
-Pulling him into the ethereal plane
-Trapping him in his board

Soooo.... how EXACTLY is Manhattan gonna beat the Surfer? :-/

Originally posted by janus77
totally baseless speculation re: "Celestial Tech". got any proof that it prevents Apocalypse's X-gene from being switched off?

on-panel, Apocalypse calls it Celestial artefacts, and goes onto show that he doesn't really understand it.

switching off the X-gene guarantees a humiliatingly quick win for Surfer. nothing the Celestial artefacts would do about that.

of course it would and of course Surfer has blitzed opponents as powerful as Apocalypse (Nova, for example).


Surfer is a little more ruthless now.

I'm not saying that they would prevent it, I'm saying that the celestial tech that's with him is better than the actual powers he had prior to his celestial upgrades.

Nova wasn't blitzed in 1 hundredth of a second.

Jon is the only character in the Watchmen series to explicitly possess superhuman abilities (although the details of the plot presuppose the existence of genuine human psychics). Throughout Watchmen, he is shown to be immensely powerful and seemingly invulnerable to all harm; even when his body is disintegrated, he can reconstruct it from atoms (in less than a minute the second time this happened). Jon has complete awareness of and control over atomic and subatomic particles. He can alter his body's size, coloration, density, and strength. He does not age or need food, water, or air, and is, for all intents and purposes, immortal. He can teleport himself and others over great (even interplanetary and perhaps intergalactic) distances.

Jon's near-limitless powers are further amplified in comparison to the apparent lack of any other "super-powered" individuals. Although Veidt is obviously the second-most dangerous character in the series, as Jon himself observes, "...the world's smartest man means no more to me than its smartest termite."

In addition to these powers, Jon is able to phase any part of his body through solid objects without damaging them, produce multiple copies of himself which function independently of each other, project destructive energy, disintegrate people (possibly by removing their intrinsic fields) create force fields, transmute and create matter, move objects without physically touching them (telekinesis), reverse entropy, and, he suggests, create life and walk on the surface of the sun. At one point it is stated that, in the event of a nuclear war, he would be capable of destroying upwards of 99% of all Soviet nuclear missiles while at the same time 'destroying' large areas of Russia. As a result of these capabilities, Jon becomes central to the United States' Cold War strategy of deterrence.

Due to his non-linear perception of time, he sees the past, present and future simultaneously.

SS would rape Manhatten all day!

Originally posted by Uriel005
My point in all this is that there is no power comparison for Dr.Manhattan. Supervillains don't exist and he never had any cause to test the limits of his power beyond the needs of a conventional army. For all we know he could have a trillion other powers that remain unknown. Any fight with Manhattan with anyone Herald level and up is moot because he has no comparison to know how he would do against them. Also for people arguing that he can see the future and that he would know all future powers. He would never need them and therefore would never think to look into them so unless some future event forced him to explore the limits of his power he would never know.

But anyone below Herald level gets taken out quick because his CIS when it comes to killing is nonexistant. You do something evil and he blasts you into gory bits.

Take Manhattan out of this fight there just isn't enough info on him to know how he would deal with someone on surfer or sersi level. Manhatan never looked into the future he experienced all moments of his own timeline simultaneously and he can't change the outcome of shit. We know he has an upper limit as indicated by his inabilty to stop nuclear holocaust, something far below the SS's power levels, who has disabled and fixed fleets of starships with billions of people on board with a thought.

Originally posted by h1a8
SS can't beat Manhattan. But Manhattan can beat him.

Doesn't matter who feats are greater. It's all about who will win and why.
pffft
Let's see, SS can attack him through the astral plane and wreck his mind/soul, so his consciousness can't reform his body after SS reproduces Veidt's tachyon field effecs with his pinky toe. He can displace Manhatan through the timestream leaving him BFRed 7 billion years after the sun has died and can dump him into other dimensions where his powers are rendered useless by the local physical laws.

Or he can open a black hole an see what that does to manhatan as he never showed power on that scale.

Manhatan was working on a new endless energy source was he? SS could think something like that into existence.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
-Draining his energy
-Pulling him into the ethereal plane
-Trapping him in his board

Soooo.... how EXACTLY is Manhattan gonna beat the Surfer? :-/

1. He can't drain Manhattan's energy. Manhattan can regenerate from nothing. Manhattan can drain him is more believable.

2. He can't pull him into an ethereal plane. What are you even talking about?

3. He can't trap him in his board. This is total nonsense.


Manhattan can beat Surfer a variety of ways. One way he can duplicate himself a millions times over into 2000 ft versions of himself and one shot him.

Dr Manhattan threads should be banned because they always degenerate to the same tiresome debates.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Dr Manhattan threads should be banned because they always degenerate to the same tiresome debates.
agreed

if this is going to get locked then just make this surfer vs sersi with the two scenereos

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
if this is going to get locked then just make this surfer vs sersi with the two scenereos
Who said it would get locked? I just don't think DM should be used in threads.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. He can't drain Manhattan's energy. Manhattan can regenerate from nothing. Manhattan can drain him is more believable.

2. He can't pull him into an ethereal plane. What are you even talking about?

3. He can't trap him in his board. This is total nonsense.


Manhattan can beat Surfer a variety of ways. One way he can duplicate himself a millions times over into 2000 ft versions of himself and one shot him.

Manhatan draining the SS? lol

Making copies and oneshotting him? lulz

And yes he can trap high end energy manipulators in his board, he has done it on panel.

You've ignored astral form attacks and BFR to other dimensions, distant points in the timestreasm and or in space.

Originally posted by 753
pffft
Let's see, SS can attack him through the astral plane and wreck his mind/soul, so his consciousness can't reform his body after SS reproduces Veidt's tachyon field effecs with his pinky toe. He can displace Manhatan through the timestream leaving him BFRed 7 billion years after the sun has died and can dump him into other dimensions where his powers are rendered useless by the local physical laws.

Or he can open a black hole an see what that does to manhatan as he never showed power on that scale.

Manhatan was working on a new endless energy source was he? SS could think something like that into existence. Explain why he can't reform?He reformed form nothing.

Teleport away?

No he can't.

I still think surfer would beat manhattan in a fight but he doesn't get enough credit.Originally posted by Omega Vision
Dr Manhattan threads should be banned because they always degenerate to the same tiresome debates. This.


There should be an expantion or a follow up series or something.Or even give manhattan his own series.Or even just a crossover.We need more DM feats.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Explain why he can't reform?He reformed form nothing.

Teleport away?

No he can't.

I still think surfer would beat manhattan in a fight but he doesn't get enough credit. This.


There should be an expantion or a follow up series or something.Or even give manhattan his own series.Or even just a crossover.We need more DM feats. His mind survives the destruction of his body, if his mind/soul is wrecked, this should compromise his reforming.

SS has already BFRed people through time and casually visits other crosses dimensions.

Originally posted by 753
His mind survives the destruction of his body, if his mind/soul is wrecked, this should compromise his reforming.

SS has already BFRed people through time and casually visits other crosses dimensions. He mind (brain) has been destroyed before so explain how doing it now will do anything.

He lives everything in his own life simultaneously.Time BFR won't work.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
He mind (brain) has been destroyed before so explain how doing it now will do anything.

He lives everything in his own life simultaneously.Time BFR won't work.

His mind can obviously survive independantly of his brain. He retained his memories and personality after reforming both times. IIRC he consciently experienced what was happening to him to him as he was desintegrated adn reformed atom by atom the first time.

No, he experiences all the events in his lifetime simultaneously, this has nothing to do with time travel. SS can take him to the future and leave him stranded there, he wouldnt be able to make it back to the time period of the fight.

Surfer wins and easily at that

Originally posted by 753
His mind can obviously survive independantly of his brain. He retained his memories and personality after reforming both times. IIRC he consciently experienced what was happening to him to him as he was desintegrated adn reformed atom by atom the first time.

No, he experiences all the events in his lifetime simultaneously, this has nothing to do with time travel. SS can take him to the future and leave him stranded there, he wouldnt be able to make it back to the time period of the fight. Ok...your point?

He will still exist when the fight was happening.And what if manhattan BFRs him?

bfr's SS? Not even possible

Originally posted by iceman24567
bfr's SS? Not even possible Teleport him to the other side of the universe?

Just so he can teleport back?

Originally posted by iceman24567
Just so he can teleport back? Since when can surfer teleport ?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Since when can surfer teleport ?

Since he had the power cosmic.....

Originally posted by Naija boy
Since he had the power cosmic.....
Frustrating isn't it?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Frustrating isn't it?

lol very.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Since when can surfer teleport ? LOL

Originally posted by Naija boy
lol very.
Did you catch that shit in the Apoc vs Surfer thread where that Super-Man guy thought that Apoc had superior time manipulation to Surfer?

Originally posted by iceman24567
LOL Scans of surfer teleporting? I know he can go very far past light speed but I have yet to see him teleport.

You could just check his respect thread you know

Originally posted by Omega Vision
You could just check his respect thread you know I hate rifiling through 30 pages of scans to find one feat.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Did you catch that shit in the Apoc vs Surfer thread where that Super-Man guy thought that Apoc had superior time manipulation to Surfer?

lol,yeah i just flipped through that thread. I find that the few fans apoc does have tend to take things to the extreme. I mean it was being suggested that he was a trans-skyfather level character.....pity pity

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Scans of surfer teleporting? I know he can go very far past light speed but I have yet to see him teleport.

First scan surfer teleports himself mid battle
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Silver%20surfer%20feats/th_Surferteleportsmidbattle.jpg

Here surfer teleports psycho mans creation that was whooping the ff.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/fantasticfour076-19.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/fantasticfour076-20.jpg

Then there was also another incident i remember in fantastic four 475 where he opened a portal to teleport uatu out of danger.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. He can't drain Manhattan's energy. Manhattan can regenerate from nothing. Manhattan can drain him is more believable.

2. He can't pull him into an ethereal plane. What are you even talking about?

3. He can't trap him in his board. This is total nonsense.


Manhattan can beat Surfer a variety of ways. One way he can duplicate himself a millions times over into 2000 ft versions of himself and one shot him.

1. Yes he can. Manhattan has never proven himself to be even within planetary levels with his powers. Surfer's feats are well beyond planetary. Prove me otherwise.

2. It's an ability Surfer has demonstrated against more powerful opponents in the past. If you've read about the Surfer instead of just conjecturing from scans like you usually do, you'd know that this is within his powerset.

3. It's an ability the Surfer has demonstrated in the past. :-/ And the term "total nonsense" coming from you is a laugh and a half.

YAWN! Self-duplication and growth. Multiple Man and Goliath abilities suddenly becoming impressive, eh?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
1. Yes he can. Manhattan has never proven himself to be even within planetary levels with his powers. Surfer's feats are well beyond planetary. Prove me otherwise.

2. It's an ability Surfer has demonstrated against more powerful opponents in the past. If you've read about the Surfer instead of just conjecturing from scans like you usually do, you'd know that this is within his powerset.

3. It's an ability the Surfer has demonstrated in the past. :-/ And the term "total nonsense" coming from you is a laugh and a half.

YAWN! Self-duplication and growth. Multiple Man and Goliath abilities suddenly becoming impressive, eh?

1) Prove Manhattan isn't planetary levels because I know you can't because Manhattan has one series in which he has few showings because of lack of opponents requiring it.

2) Prove that an ethereal plane would actually trap Manhattan and stop his Teleport again you can't because there is no showing on Manhattan that it would work.

3) Manhattan duplicates... Trap OVER 9000 Manhattan's in a board all of them with teleport and matter manip... Right...

Also self replicating matter manipulators where the strength as far as we know isn't divided equally amongst them rather they are perfect copies is no joke.

Bad thread to use Dr. Manhattan no one can prove one way or another the limit of his powers because he has no reason to show the extent of his powers in the Watchmen comics. Him not being able to shoot down the nukes was hypothetical as nuclear war was never going to occur that was Ozzy deliberately countering him. So someone saying that he couldn't shoot down all the nukes is bull because that was based on the fact that he saw a tachyon disruption in the future blocking his vision making him assume he would fail to stop the nuclear war. So I say just to make the people taking this moot point argument seriously rage moar Manhattan takes on all of Marvel and DC and takes the win. There... Try and prove it wrong with no showings of limits or weaknesses of Dr. Manhattan beyond Tachyon disruption which doesn't actually effect anything other than his vision of the future.

Mods stop the Dr. Manhattan threads they don't go anywhere.

Originally posted by Uriel005
1) Prove Manhattan isn't planetary levels because I know you can't because Manhattan has one series in which he has few showings because of lack of opponents requiring it.

2) Prove that an ethereal plane would actually trap Manhattan and stop his Teleport again you can't because there is no showing on Manhattan that it would work.

3) Manhattan duplicates... Trap OVER 9000 Manhattan's in a board all of them with teleport and matter manip... Right...

Also self replicating matter manipulators where the strength as far as we know isn't divided equally amongst them rather they are perfect copies is no joke.

Bad thread to use Dr. Manhattan no one can prove one way or another the limit of his powers because he has no reason to show the extent of his powers in the Watchmen comics. Him not being able to shoot down the nukes was hypothetical as nuclear war was never going to occur that was Ozzy deliberately countering him. So someone saying that he couldn't shoot down all the nukes is bull because that was based on the fact that he saw a tachyon disruption in the future blocking his vision making him assume he would fail to stop the nuclear war. So I say just to make the people taking this moot point argument seriously rage moar Manhattan takes on all of Marvel and DC and takes the win. There... Try and prove it wrong with no showings of limits or weaknesses of Dr. Manhattan beyond Tachyon disruption which doesn't actually effect anything other than his vision of the future.

Mods stop the Dr. Manhattan threads they don't go anywhere.
You're just using a No Limit fallacy.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Did you catch that shit in the Apoc vs Surfer thread where that Super-Man guy thought that Apoc had superior time manipulation to Surfer?

Surfer has time manipulation?

Originally posted by King Kandy
You're just using a No Limit fallacy.

Give me a limit on him that says that he would lose. Tell me where his powers stop and I'll say that he is a viable character to use in discussion. The only limit actually imposed on him is tachyon disruption. Even the nuke thing isn't necessarily true because it was never going to happen as ozzy specifically countered him on future vision making him believe he couldn't stop the nukes.

So anyways give me one thing that says beyond that his powers have any limitations whatsoever

Originally posted by Uriel005
Give me a limit on him that says that he would lose. Tell me where his powers stop and I'll say that he is a viable character to use in discussion. The only limit actually imposed on him is tachyon disruption. Even the nuke thing isn't necessarily true because it was never going to happen as ozzy specifically countered him on future vision making him believe he couldn't stop the nukes.

So anyways give me one thing that says beyond that his powers have any limitations whatsoever
That's a No Limit fallacy.

Originally posted by Uriel005
1) Prove Manhattan isn't planetary levels because I know you can't because Manhattan has one series in which he has few showings because of lack of opponents requiring it.

1) One doesn't prove a negative, sport. Are you new here or don't you already know that? It's your burden to prove that his powers are indeed planetary in scale (such as worldwide matter manipulation or evolving a whole planet or even blowing up a whole planet would suffice). Until then, his best feats are where we derive the upper levels of his powers.

Originally posted by Uriel005
2) Prove that an ethereal plane would actually trap Manhattan and stop his Teleport again you can't because there is no showing on Manhattan that it would work.

2) Again, asking me to prove a negative. In comics, that Astral plane has always been an existence outside of our own physical bodies and function under a different set of rules. Fact is, the Surfer has been able to pull entities with powers far greater than his own into the Astral Plane to destroy them (See Silver Surfer: In thy Name). What showings does Dr. Manhattan have that has indicated that his abilities can function outside a different plane of existence (any would do)?

And btw, going "it wouldn't work because you need to prove that it can work SPECIFICALLY on this character from a different comic book universe" is a lame argumentation.

Originally posted by Uriel005
3) Manhattan duplicates... Trap OVER 9000 Manhattan's in a board all of them with teleport and matter manip... Right...

Also self replicating matter manipulators where the strength as far as we know isn't divided equally amongst them rather they are perfect copies is no joke.

Actually, since neither one of them has prep, Surfer can just blitz him before he can react and then trap him in the board.

Oh, and what feats, pray tell, has these copies been able to do that proves that each is a perfect, undiminished copy of the original?

Originally posted by Uriel005
Bad thread to use Dr. Manhattan no one can prove one way or another the limit of his powers because he has no reason to show the extent of his powers in the Watchmen comics.

Translation: All you have is implied power and no feats to back it up.

Sadly, when you debate in this forum, you need to base your argumentations on proven feats, not implied abilities.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Surfer has time manipulation?

See: Silver Surfer Respect forum.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Give me a limit on him that says that he would lose. Tell me where his powers stop and I'll say that he is a viable character to use in discussion. The only limit actually imposed on him is tachyon disruption. Even the nuke thing isn't necessarily true because it was never going to happen as ozzy specifically countered him on future vision making him believe he couldn't stop the nukes.

So anyways give me one thing that says beyond that his powers have any limitations whatsoever his powers stop at the point he couldnt prevent nuclear holocaust or win the war for the USA, that's an upper limit right there (not to mention, he spent a week defeating the vietcong)

Originally posted by 753
his powers stop at the point he couldnt prevent nuclear holocaust or win the war for the USA, that's an upper limit right there (not to mention, he spent a week defeating the vietcong)

Funny thing was, he was even using LETHAL force and had help from the US military when doing it. LOL.

Any low herald character would prolly need less than a few hours. :-/

Surfer would take less than an hour to defeat the Watchmen universe worldwide military, tbh.

Originally posted by Uriel005
1) Prove Manhattan isn't planetary levels because I know you can't because Manhattan has one series in which he has few showings because of lack of opponents requiring it.

2) Prove that an ethereal plane would actually trap Manhattan and stop his Teleport again you can't because there is no showing on Manhattan that it would work.

3) Manhattan duplicates... Trap OVER 9000 Manhattan's in a board all of them with teleport and matter manip... Right...

Also self replicating matter manipulators where the strength as far as we know isn't divided equally amongst them rather they are perfect copies is no joke.

Bad thread to use Dr. Manhattan no one can prove one way or another the limit of his powers because he has no reason to show the extent of his powers in the Watchmen comics. Him not being able to shoot down the nukes was hypothetical as nuclear war was never going to occur that was Ozzy deliberately countering him. So someone saying that he couldn't shoot down all the nukes is bull because that was based on the fact that he saw a tachyon disruption in the future blocking his vision making him assume he would fail to stop the nuclear war. So I say just to make the people taking this moot point argument seriously rage moar Manhattan takes on all of Marvel and DC and takes the win. There... Try and prove it wrong with no showings of limits or weaknesses of Dr. Manhattan beyond Tachyon disruption which doesn't actually effect anything other than his vision of the future.

Mods stop the Dr. Manhattan threads they don't go anywhere.

You're full of it. Your first two points are beging us to prove negatives, but D_Dude already covered that.

The point is as follows: Manhatan displayed an upper limit by his incapacity to decisevely win nuclear war. Even if he hadn't, we can only judge him by the powers and feats he did show, not speculate about powers he never showed.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Ok...your point?

He will still exist when the fight was happening.And what if manhattan BFRs him? My point is that since it's futile to attack manhatan's body as he is indestructible, SS can attack his mind/soul throught he astral plane.

That or BFR him.

Originally posted by 753
My point is that since it's futile to attack manhatan's body as he is indestructible, SS can attack his mind/soul throught he astral plane.

That or BFR him.

The part where they said Manhattan was incapable of winning a nuclear war was based on a lie. Ozzy didn't think John could stop the coming war which is what launched the whole plot. He blocked John's vision of the future which made John think he failed to stop the nuclear war. The reality is that he could have been able to but because the only event he thought could block his future vision was a nuclear war, he thought it had occurred and that his powers were insufficient to stop it.

Also you're saying to go by his on panel feats... He has hardly any which is why I've repeatedly said he is a bad character to put into a discussion. I will repeat the idea that he could not stop a nuclear war was based on a lie by Ozzy who for as smart as he was is still human who was fearing for the worst in the event of a nuclear war and took steps to prevent it and create a perfect world regardless of whether or not John could stop it. It is unknown how John would respond to a psychic event, what his psionic resistance is, how soul effects work on him etc etc. give me proof that anything your saying would BFR or would absolutely defeat him and I know it won't happen because he has never shown a weakness that would beat him. The most that has ever happened was blocking his future sight.

Dr. Manhattan is a character with not enough background to say how far he could go. He is in a universe where nothing challenges him and no one could force him to show the extent of his power or push his limits, for all intents and purposes on panel he is a God except for the tachyon thing. John should not be used unless there will be more comics on him or the Watchmen in a universe of superpowers to say that he actually has any limits which I hope they don't do because the Watchmen series was a great as it was.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
1) One doesn't prove a negative, sport. Are you new here or don't you already know that? It's your burden to prove that his powers are indeed planetary in scale (such as worldwide matter manipulation or evolving a whole planet or even blowing up a whole planet would suffice). Until then, his best feats are where we derive the upper levels of his powers.



2) Again, asking me to prove a negative. In comics, that Astral plane has always been an existence outside of our own physical bodies and function under a different set of rules. Fact is, the Surfer has been able to pull entities with powers far greater than his own into the Astral Plane to destroy them (See Silver Surfer: In thy Name). What showings does Dr. Manhattan have that has indicated that his abilities can function outside a different plane of existence (any would do)?

And btw, going "it wouldn't work because you need to prove that it can work SPECIFICALLY on this character from a different comic book universe" is a lame argumentation.



Actually, since neither one of them has prep, Surfer can just blitz him before he can react and then trap him in the board.

Oh, and what feats, pray tell, has these copies been able to do that proves that each is a perfect, undiminished copy of the original?



Translation: All you have is implied power and no feats to back it up.

Sadly, when you debate in this forum, you need to base your argumentations on proven feats, not implied abilities.

I just mean to say that Manhattan is a bad character to use in any forum discussion, there really isn't much of a point unless he could be compared on panel to other super powered beings.

Manhattan took time to reform, even the second time when Ozzy removed his intrinsic field. I don`t doubt for a second that Surfer could do the same for a legit KO. Not to mention he could prevent him from reforming.

As godlike DM seemed in Watchmen, he doesn`t even make high herald when compared to the rest of the comicverse.

Originally posted by Uriel005
The part where they said Manhattan was incapable of winning a nuclear war was based on a lie. Ozzy didn't think John could stop the coming war which is what launched the whole plot. He blocked John's vision of the future which made John think he failed to stop the nuclear war. The reality is that he could have been able to but because the only event he thought could block his future vision was a nuclear war, he thought it had occurred and that his powers were insufficient to stop it.

Also you're saying to go by his on panel feats... He has hardly any which is why I've repeatedly said he is a bad character to put into a discussion. I will repeat the idea that he could not stop a nuclear war was based on a lie by Ozzy who for as smart as he was is still human who was fearing for the worst in the event of a nuclear war and took steps to prevent it and create a perfect world regardless of whether or not John could stop it. It is unknown how John would respond to a psychic event, what his psionic resistance is, how soul effects work on him etc etc. give me proof that anything your saying would BFR or would absolutely defeat him and I know it won't happen because he has never shown a weakness that would beat him. The most that has ever happened was blocking his future sight.

Dr. Manhattan is a character with not enough background to say how far he could go. He is in a universe where nothing challenges him and no one could force him to show the extent of his power or push his limits, for all intents and purposes on panel he is a God except for the tachyon thing. John should not be used unless there will be more comics on him or the Watchmen in a universe of superpowers to say that he actually has any limits which I hope they don't do because the Watchmen series was a great as it was. Ozzie, the usa military and the military analyst/historian whose article is printed as a book within the book to explainm the escalation brought about by manhatan all knew he couldn't win the war for the usa as the ussr had multiplied its arsenal as a reaction to DM's presentation to the world.

More importantly: if he could prevent it, it would ruin the point of the story. The idea that not even God could save humanity from itself and that nuclear war can have no winners were major themes within it. stop talking out of your ass.

The rest of your argument is asking me to prove negatives. I don't have to prove Manhatan could be lost in the timeline, because he never showed he could timetravel. That's like asking me to prove superman can't timetravel. Why wouldn't a mind or soul attack work on him? He clearly ahd a mind and was vulnerable to even common psychological manipulation engendered by ozzie.

Originally posted by 753
Manhatan draining the SS? lol Yes if Dr. M at 10000ft tall attacks Surfer it will be a one shot.
Dr. M is more than an energy manipulator; he is a high end teleporter and duplicator too.




I haven't ignore them. SS simply can't do such things to beings in a fight. If I'm wrong them prove me wrong.

lol

Originally posted by Mshinu
Manhattan took time to reform, even the second time when Ozzy removed his intrinsic field. I don`t doubt for a second that Surfer could do the same for a legit KO. Not to mention he could prevent him from reforming.

As godlike DM seemed in Watchmen, he doesn`t even make high herald when compared to the rest of the comicverse. First, it didn't last long enough to count as a ko (since Dr. M was always conscious). Second, Dr. M can just duplicate himself a million times over right after the bell. Each duplicate can also grow to any size. Each duplicate can teleport SS in positions where he would be assaulted right and left.

Originally posted by Mindset
lol I've seen her the other day. How is she?

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes if Dr. M at 10000ft tall attacks Surfer it will be a one shot.
Dr. M is more than an energy manipulator; he is a high end teleporter and duplicator too.

I haven't ignore them. SS simply can't do such things to beings in a fight. If I'm wrong them prove me wrong.

Lolz. Did someone hack into your account or are you trolling/drunk?

This post just seems a lot more inept than usual.

This is all kinds of stupid.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Lolz. Did someone hack into your account or are you trolling/drunk?

This post just seems a lot more inept than usual.

What parts are candidates of trolling? Quote each statement that is and explain why it is a candidate. If I'm looking like a fool then please do correct me.

P.S. I'm sincere here and really would like to be brought into the light if I'm way off here. This post is no way meant to be sarcastic but a sincere request for knowledge.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes if Dr. M at 10000ft tall attacks Surfer it will be a one shot.
Dr. M is more than an energy manipulator; he is a high end teleporter and duplicator too.




I haven't ignore them. SS simply can't do such things to beings in a fight. If I'm wrong them prove me wrong.

BFRing durok into the far future

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2946/thor19327zt8.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9743/thor19328hv7.jpg

Trapping legacy with the negabands in his board. He does this often and can be seen absorbing cancerverse invading hordes into it in Thanos Imperative.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8547/silversurfer199612217bh0.jpg

Taking a fight with an entity who could devour him in the regular world into the astral plane where he quickly stablishes who is stronger there

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Silver%20Surfer/surferastral3.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Silver%20Surfer/surferastral4.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Silver%20Surfer/surferastral5.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Silver%20Surfer/surferastral7.jpg

Binding lunatik to a planet, so he'll die if he ever leaves

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6866/mcp175p15ty0.jpg

Manhatan has zero chances of oneshoting the SS, who can also duplicate and alter his own size by the way.

Originally posted by 753
BFRing durok into the far future

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2946/thor19327zt8.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9743/thor19328hv7.jpg This is not applicable due to Dr. M being a teleporter. Dr. M starts the fight after the bell with many of himself as well.
Again not applicable. Dr. M is a teleporter and can phase. He also starts the fight after the bell with many of himself. Dr. M can amp as well, so busting through the board will be no problem as well.

Not applicable because Dr. M is not in astral plane. If SS leaves his body then Dr. M would either destroy it or absorb it.
Not applicable. Dr. M is a teleporter and matter manipulator and will start the fight after the bell with many of him.
I disagree. I see Surfer having no way to win against him and Dr. M having ways to win against Surfer. I don't believe Sufer can duplicate himself many times like Dr. M. Neither do I believe he can alter his size to large proportions like Dr. M can (to small sizes yes he can though)

A beats B not because B is less powerful but because A has the keys to win.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is not applicable due to Dr. M being a teleporter. Dr. M starts the fight after the bell with many of himself as well.
Again not applicable. Dr. M is a teleporter and can phase. He also starts the fight after the bell with many of himself. Dr. M can amp as well, so busting through the board will be no problem as well.

Not applicable because Dr. M is not in astral plane. If SS leaves his body then Dr. M would either destroy it or absorb it.
Not applicable. Dr. M is a teleporter and matter manipulator and will start the fight after the bell with many of him.
I disagree. I see Surfer having no way to win against him and Dr. M having ways to win against Surfer. I don't believe Sufer can duplicate himself many times like Dr. M. Neither do I believe he can alter his size to large proportions like Dr. M can (to small sizes yes he can though)

A beats B not because B is less powerful but because A has the keys to win. You're full of it h1. Manhatan may teleport, but he can't travel through time. SS can drag him through the timestream alright, just blanket the whole area with the power instead of grabing him.

The board absorbs beings into it, they're rendered powerless within it. The nega-bands already allowed interdimensional travel and it didn't do legacy any good.

DM's mind would be a part of the astral plane, like everyone else's. Through the astral plane, one doesn't attack the body in the real world but the mind/soul directly. It's equivalent to a mindrape.

SS once shrank down to the microverse. Why wouldnt he be able to grow? And besides, what makes you think manhatan becomes more powerfull by growing in size?

Originally posted by h1a8
This is not applicable due to Dr. M being a teleporter. Dr. M starts the fight after the bell with many of himself as well.
Again not applicable. Dr. M is a teleporter and can phase. He also starts the fight after the bell with many of himself. Dr. M can amp as well, so busting through the board will be no problem as well.

Not applicable because Dr. M is not in astral plane. If SS leaves his body then Dr. M would either destroy it or absorb it.
Not applicable. Dr. M is a teleporter and matter manipulator and will start the fight after the bell with many of him.
I disagree. I see Surfer having no way to win against him and Dr. M having ways to win against Surfer. I don't believe Sufer can duplicate himself many times like Dr. M. Neither do I believe he can alter his size to large proportions like Dr. M can (to small sizes yes he can though)

A beats B not because B is less powerful but because A has the keys to win.
You seem to be forgetting something, the reason 753 posted those scans was because you said...

Originally posted by h1a8
I haven't ignore them. SS simply can't do such things to beings in a fight. If I'm wrong them prove me wrong.

Now whether or not Manhatten can combat such techniques may or may not be up for debate, but he DID prove you wrong about Surfer's general ability to use such tactics against people in a fight so that's a point you should conceed...

Originally posted by 753
You're full of it h1. Manhatan may teleport, but he can't travel through time. SS can drag him through the timestream alright, just blanket the whole area with the power instead of grabing him. What are you talking about? SS physically dragged him faster and faster until they went into the future. I'm not blind am I? It took awhile for Surfer to do it too. No way Dr. M sits there and lets that happen.
Can he do that to Thanos? What about Thor? Why not? Hmmm. Also you are not understanding my point. I said there would be many Dr. M in the beginning of battle. I also said Dr. M can teleport and phase. So he can't be sucked in (he would phase or teleport while he is being sucked). Second, I don't believe the board can suck (as in vacuum) beings in. Lastly, just because someone didn't try something in a comic doesn't mean they couldn't do it. That is why we have low showings and bad writing. For example, Gladiator could just thrown Hulk into space or uppercut him there. But bad writing had him try to carry him to space at speeds far under light speed.
You have to prove DM's mind would be part of the astral plane. You must also prove that SS can enter the astral plane and assault DM's mind well before DM can destroy SS's body. Leaving the battlefield is also against the rules.
I know he did, that's what I alluded to. Being able to shrink doesn't necessarily give one the ability to grow beyond normal levels, otherwise you would have SS doing in comics at least several times.

DM is a matter manipulator and energy absorber. His larger self has more energy and is more powerful because this is how the writer's are portraying him to be when he grows.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You seem to be forgetting something, the reason 753 posted those scans was because you said...



Now whether or not Manhatten can combat such techniques may or may not be up for debate, but he DID prove you wrong about Surfer's general ability to use such tactics against people in a fight so that's a point you should conceed... I define 'fight' as one on one ready set fight. Actually I knew SS has done some of the things. That is why I was slick and said "...in a fight."

SS can't do the astral plane thing in a fight due to him leaving his body exposed or him leaving the battlefield rule. From that scan that wasn't what I define to be a fight (as in one on one ready set fight).

Also the other poster implied that SS can just send someone into the future with a mere gesture (his statement implied it). He didn't claim how. He purposely stated it in such a way as to be misleading. I knew this and thus called him on it.

There were other claims not yet attempted to be proven though.

I concede that he can do such things to certain beings but not how the OP implied how he would do them.

Dr. M grows 1000ft tall and one shots SS because the bigger he is the more power he has.

Originally posted by Mindset
Dr. M grows 1000ft tall and one shots SS because the bigger he is the more power he has. The latter is true but the former is open to debate. My opinion is yes DM will definitely one shot SS at that height. If not then a two shot. If not then at a larger height.

Originally posted by Mindset
Dr. M grows 1000ft tall and one shots SS because the bigger he is the more power he has. he can duplicate with each copy as powerful as himself

Originally posted by h1a8
What are you talking about? SS physically dragged him faster and faster until they went into the future. I'm not blind am I? It took awhile for Surfer to do it too. No way Dr. M sits there and lets that happen.
Can he do that to Thanos? What about Thor? Why not? Hmmm. Also you are not understanding my point. I said there would be many Dr. M in the beginning of battle. I also said Dr. M can teleport and phase. So he can't be sucked in (he would phase or teleport while he is being sucked). Second, I don't believe the board can suck (as in vacuum) beings in. Lastly, just because someone didn't try something in a comic doesn't mean they couldn't do it. That is why we have low showings and bad writing. For example, Gladiator could just thrown Hulk into space or uppercut him there. But bad writing had him try to carry him to space at speeds far under light speed.
You have to prove DM's mind would be part of the astral plane. You must also prove that SS can enter the astral plane and assault DM's mind well before DM can destroy SS's body. Leaving the battlefield is also against the rules.
I know he did, that's what I alluded to. Being able to shrink doesn't necessarily give one the ability to grow beyond normal levels, otherwise you would have SS doing in comics at least several times.

DM is a matter manipulator and energy absorber. His larger self has more energy and is more powerful because this is how the writer's are portraying him to be when he grows.

The point is SS doesnt have to grab and hold on to DM to drag him through time. He can encase him in a forcefield to do it, along with a portion of the battlefield. You could claim DM can teleport out of it if he realizes what is happening, but SS can conceivebly make the field TP proof.

The board can indeed suck creatures in. Thanos imperative 4 shows it.

I don't have to prove DM's mind would be accessible through the astral plane as it is obvious enough, because the rules state they fight in a neutral universe and so there would be an astral plane through which one could reach his mind. Onus of evidence to show he is inaccessible or impervious to TP or astral form attacks is on you. As for how long it would take for the SS to conclude the astral attack while leaving his body abandoned, the speed of thought and travel in astral form is said to be incalculable, xavier reached across a galaxy in astral form almost instantly. With his mind under attack DM would have difficulty managing a physical attack on the SS.

He amps when he grows? Evidence?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
he can duplicate with each copy as powerful as himself Were they actually said to have the same amount of power as his original self, I must have missed that part?

Originally posted by h1a8
The latter is true but the former is open to debate. My opinion is yes DM will definitely one shot SS at that height. If not then a two shot. If not then at a larger height. What's there to debate?

Bigger is better.

He'll be around 1000x more powerful.

Originally posted by Mindset
Were they actually said to have the same amount of power as his original self, I must have missed that part? someone here said it

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
someone here said it Oh, then it's canon.

Ok, so Dr. M makes 1000, 1000 foot clones of himself.

Originally posted by Mindset
What's there to debate?

Bigger is better.

He'll be around 1000x more powerful. hank pym would still pawn him

H1....your not BFRing surfer.But I don't see surfer BFRing manhattan either.

I'll say it again you can't prove anything the surfer would do to him would actually accomplish anything... No super power being has ever assaulted or done anything to Manhattan. The nuke limitation was based on a lie Ozzy used to create his utopia. There is no measure to how he would respond either positively or negatively to the attacks of the surfer. Stop surfer wanking.

I agree with Uriel, Surfer stomps.

Originally posted by Mindset
I agree with Uriel, Surfer stomps.

Originally posted by 753
The point is SS doesnt have to grab and hold on to DM to drag him through time. He can encase him in a forcefield to do it, along with a portion of the battlefield. You could claim DM can teleport out of it if he realizes what is happening, but SS can conceivebly make the field TP proof.

The board can indeed suck creatures in. Thanos imperative 4 shows it.

I don't have to prove DM's mind would be accessible through the astral plane as it is obvious enough, because the rules state they fight in a neutral universe and so there would be an astral plane through which one could reach his mind. Onus of evidence to show he is inaccessible or impervious to TP or astral form attacks is on you. As for how long it would take for the SS to conclude the astral attack while leaving his body abandoned, the speed of thought and travel in astral form is said to be incalculable, xavier reached across a galaxy in astral form almost instantly. With his mind under attack DM would have difficulty managing a physical attack on the SS.

He amps when he grows? Evidence?

In addition SS doesnt even need to drag manhattan in order to temporally BFR him, he could use a chronal energy wave and that would be that.

Originally posted by h1a8
The latter is true but the former is open to debate. My opinion is yes DM will definitely one shot SS at that height. If not then a two shot. If not then at a larger height. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Originally posted by Naija boy
In addition SS doesnt even need to drag manhattan in order to temporally BFR him, he could use a chronal energy wave and that would be that. Surfers not BFRing Manhattan

Originally posted by h1a8
What parts are candidates of trolling? Quote each statement that is and explain why it is a candidate. If I'm looking like a fool then please do correct me.

P.S. I'm sincere here and really would like to be brought into the light if I'm way off here. This post is no way meant to be sarcastic but a sincere request for knowledge.

Your post wasn't a "sincere request for knowledge" more like an inept attempt at stating conjecture as fact.

Sigh. Are you getting lazy? There used to be a time when your posts made an ATTEMPT at making a point. Now it's just plain downright ignorant. Very disappointing, really.

Statements like this:

Originally posted by h1a8
I haven't ignore them. SS simply can't do such things to beings in a fight. If I'm wrong them prove me wrong.

Originally posted by h1a8
I define 'fight' as one on one ready set fight. Actually I knew SS has done some of the things. That is why I was slick and said "...in a fight."

SS can't do the astral plane thing in a fight due to him leaving his body exposed or him leaving the battlefield rule. From that scan that wasn't what I define to be a fight (as in one on one ready set fight).

Very disappointing, h1. Very.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Surfers not BFRing Manhattan But Dm can bfr Surfer? Your full of jokes lol

I guess Sersi went to go do her nails during this fight...lol

She's just outclassed here.

Originally posted by 753
She's just outclassed here.

She's got better high end feats than Manhatten.

Her control over energy and matter was so great that she was able to completely isolate, protect, and save the Avengers and herself from a blast that destroyed the UNIVERSE around them.

if anything sersi outclasses both of them

Originally posted by Mindset
Were they actually said to have the same amount of power as his original self, I must have missed that part?

It is understood by default of writer's intentions.
All duplicates can do what Dr. M can do. Otherwise they would just be mere images of him with no powers. Dr. M can created other life and even recreated himself from nothing. It stands to reason that he can create beings that can do the same.

Originally posted by 753
The point is SS doesnt have to grab and hold on to DM to drag him through time. He can encase him in a forcefield to do it, along with a portion of the battlefield. You could claim DM can teleport out of it if he realizes what is happening, but SS can conceivebly make the field TP proof.

The board can indeed suck creatures in. Thanos imperative 4 shows it.

I don't have to prove DM's mind would be accessible through the astral plane as it is obvious enough, because the rules state they fight in a neutral universe and so there would be an astral plane through which one could reach his mind. Onus of evidence to show he is inaccessible or impervious to TP or astral form attacks is on you. As for how long it would take for the SS to conclude the astral attack while leaving his body abandoned, the speed of thought and travel in astral form is said to be incalculable, xavier reached across a galaxy in astral form almost instantly. With his mind under attack DM would have difficulty managing a physical attack on the SS.

He amps when he grows? Evidence?

Now you are desperate here. No way in hell can SS make a forcefield that one can't Teleport or phase out of. A neutral universe doesn't include an astral plane by default. You don't make the rules. Even if it is then my first point still stands about Dr. M instantly destroying or absorbing his body the moment he leaves. Also my point leaving the battlefield (to the astral plane) is against the rules. Even if it weren't SS would be self koing himself anyway since he is his body.

SS would have to concentrate to reach astral plane. He leaves himself open for attack.

Dr. M has more mass and thus more power when larger. That evidence is common sense. Every being in comics who has ever grown in size was more powerful than their original size, Galactus, Destroyer, Henry Pym, etc.

Originally posted by Naija boy
In addition SS doesnt even need to drag manhattan in order to temporally BFR him, he could use a chronal energy wave and that would be that. That wouldn't work since Dr. M can teleport and phase.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now you are desperate here. No way in hell can SS make a forcefield that one can't Teleport or phase out of.

Really? He can't? Considering the power he's displayed over spacetime I'd say he probably can. Or simply blanket the area and move it through time instead of grabbing DM.



Actually, in a neutral universe there is as much of an astral plane as there is a speedforce, otherwise it would be impossible for flash and telepaths to use their powers. The astral attack would be instantaneous, as the speed of thought and action in astral form is beyond any measure, it's not even ruled by the same laws of physics as the real world.

Beyond all of this, he can destroy DM's body and then go after his mind in astral form as he takes a while to reform.
says who?
So you have no direct evidence huh? Good to know. Even if the increase in mass gave him more strengh, which is debateble, there is no reason to assume it would give him more energy/matter manipulation power.

SS can amp himself through ambient energy absorption. He has actually done this too.

Originally posted by 753
You're full of it h1. Manhatan may teleport, but he can't travel through time. SS can drag him through the timestream alright, just blanket the whole area with the power instead of grabing him.

The board absorbs beings into it, they're rendered powerless within it. The nega-bands already allowed interdimensional travel and it didn't do legacy any good.

DM's mind would be a part of the astral plane, like everyone else's. Through the astral plane, one doesn't attack the body in the real world but the mind/soul directly. It's equivalent to a mindrape.

SS once shrank down to the microverse. Why wouldnt he be able to grow? And besides, what makes you think manhatan becomes more powerfull by growing in size? How do you know?He lives everything simultaneously.

Manhattan could just clone himself and have him absorb one.

You can't judge how well manhattan would do on an astral plain so you can't say surfer would auto-win.

Shrinking =/= growing

Originally posted by Mindset
Were they actually said to have the same amount of power as his original self, I must have missed that part? Where was it said they had different powers?Does multiple man lose powers the more clones he makes? Now given he has only shown to be able to make 3 but they probably all have the same powers. Dr. M just doesn't have enough feats.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
How do you know?He lives everything simultaneously.
He experiences his own timeline at once. He never showed the power to displace himself through the timestream.
this could work, but the fight would just go on

Without any telepathic powers of his own, I don't see much defense for him.

SS can clearly absorb mass and energy and has control over his own form, including size alteration, so there is no reason to assume he couldn't.

Originally posted by iceman24567
But Dm can bfr Surfer? Your full of jokes lol I never said that. He could teleport him to the other side of the universe but surfer would just fly back.Its like trying to BFR flash.But surfer isn't BFRing manhattan either.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now you are desperate here. No way in hell can SS make a forcefield that one can't Teleport or phase out of. A neutral universe doesn't include an astral plane by default. You don't make the rules. Even if it is then my first point still stands about Dr. M instantly destroying or absorbing his body the moment he leaves. Also my point leaving the battlefield (to the astral plane) is against the rules. Even if it weren't SS would be self koing himself anyway since he is his body.

SS would have to concentrate to reach astral plane. He leaves himself open for attack.

Dr. M has more mass and thus more power when larger. That evidence is common sense. Every being in comics who has ever grown in size was more powerful than their original size, Galactus, Destroyer, Henry Pym, etc. You don't seem to be getting that he can drag manhattan into the astral plain as well...he doesn't just go...they both go.

ANd how does bigger equal better?

Originally posted by 753
He experiences his own timeline at once. He never showed the power to displace himself through the timestream.
this could work, but the fight would just go on

Without any telepathic powers of his own, I don't see much defense for him.

SS can clearly absorb mass and energy and has control over his own form, including size alteration, so there is no reason to assume he couldn't. Like I said before DM doesn't have enough feats.For all we know he could be high skyfather or high meta.

yeah I don't like that cheap absorbing crap.

And you know this how? I'm not entirely sure if its mind reading or future seeing but considering he wouldn't have been anywhere near it when it happened and he can only see his own future he read silk spectres mind when she was about to ask dan out to dinner.

Any actual feats?If you assume like you are doing that manhattan can create 10000000 copies of himself and grow them all and one shot surfer.But seeing as there are no feats for that I would like proof for surfer growing.