Surfer/Thor vs Superman/Wonder Woman/Martian Manhunter

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carver9
CIS is off for Thor in this fight. He is basically willing to kill without breaking a sweat or having a second thought about it. The rest of the group remains the same.

Can Surfer and Thor take out these 3?

Black bolt z
Still team 3.Take off CIS for surfer as well and he drains superman then team can take the win easy/

D_Dude1210
BFR is an excellent option for T1. Perhaps send Supes to the negative zone so they can stomp T2.

ares834
Team 2.

Bouboumaster
Team 1 for the stomp if the bfr are allowed

Q99
Trio for the win.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Q99
Trio for the win.

and i really don't get the point of these threads...

quanchi112
Team 1 wins.

Prep-Man
Trio.

janus77
Team 1 FTW.

BobbyD
Too much firepower on Team 2.

Juntai
Originally posted by Q99
Trio for the win.

Omega Vision
Wow I've never seen a thread like this before. no expression

carver9
People could make an argument both ways. Surfer Cosmic awareness sense Supes AND the Martian weakness and he easily dispose of them. A Thor that is unleashing everything onto a team is a beast; his power output is next to none and his omni blast could ruin some on team 2. Then we have a two on one and if the Martian and Wonder Woman double team Surfer, I could see Surfer beating them (could be difficult) while Thor stalemate or probably beat Supes.

Team 1 has a good chance of winning due to their cosmic power and if they play their cards right.

BobbyD
Originally posted by carver9
People could make an argument both ways. Surfer Cosmic awareness sense Supes AND the Martian weakness and he easily dispose of them. A Thor that is unleashing everything onto a team is a beast; his power output is next to none and his omni blast could ruin some on team 2. Then we have a two on one and if the Martian and Wonder Woman double team Surfer, I could see Surfer beating them (could be difficult) while Thor stalemate or probably beat Supes.

Team 1 has a good chance of winning due to their cosmic power and if they play their cards right.

Is Norrin susceptible to mental assaults by J'onn? If he is, this is bad news for Team 1.

BattleMage
Bfr the Martian and T1 takes this.

biensalsa
Originally posted by carver9
People could make an argument both ways. Surfer Cosmic awareness sense Supes AND the Martian weakness and he easily dispose of them. A Thor that is unleashing everything onto a team is a beast; his power output is next to none and his omni blast could ruin some on team 2. Then we have a two on one and if the Martian and Wonder Woman double team Surfer, I could see Surfer beating them (could be difficult) while Thor stalemate or probably beat Supes.

Team 1 has a good chance of winning due to their cosmic power and if they play their cards right.

You mean the scan in which HE told Gladiatior "I know your weakness"?

Do you realize thet SS knew Gladiator's weakness NOT because his "cosmic awareness" but rather because his interstellar travels accross the universe.

The feat in which SS "KNOWS" Gladiator's weakness appeared in Galactus Devourer came in 2000 and it gives the impresion that SS just meet Gladiator and right away He knows his weakness, FYI Siilver Surfer interacted with Gladiator waaaaaaaay back in 1993, so that was not the first time they meet.

And MOST LIKELLY Silver Surfer knew Gladiator's weakness BECAUSE of his countless travels accross the universe more than anything.

Team TRIO WINS

biensalsa
Originally posted by carver9
People could make an argument both ways. Surfer Cosmic awareness sense Supes AND the Martian weakness and he easily dispose of them. A Thor that is unleashing everything onto a team is a beast; his power output is next to none and his omni blast could ruin some on team 2. Then we have a two on one and if the Martian and Wonder Woman double team Surfer, I could see Surfer beating them (could be difficult) while Thor stalemate or probably beat Supes.

Team 1 has a good chance of winning due to their cosmic power and if they play their cards right.

See above

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
Do you realize thet SS knew Gladiator's weakness NOT because his "cosmic awareness" but rather because his interstellar travels accross the universe. Proof he found out by talking to some random alien schlub at an interstellar truck stop?

psycho gundam
Originally posted by biensalsa
And MOST LIKELLY Silver Surfer knew Gladiator's weakness BECAUSE of his countless travels accross the universe more than anything. the strontians consisted of just gladiator at the time, and were nameless

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Proof he found out by talking to some random alien schlub at an interstellar truck stop?

Come on, you think they are going to publish something as vanal as that?

This scan

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/...ourer518no4.jpg

Is a MISSLEADING feat

First of all it ommits CRITICAL information

Silver Surfer has interacted with the Shiar empire, the Skrull empire and the Kree empire WAY BEFORE that feat. Any of those empires will be capable of knowing Gladiator's weakness.
Isn't Genis part of the Kree?

That is why MOST LIKELLY HE says in that scan "I KNOW", not "I sense"

If you can prove that Silver Surfer NEVER interacted WITH ANY OF THOSE empires PRIOR to this "first encounter" I concede that He "sensed a wakness"

He meet GLADIATOR WAAAAAAY before that. Is a missleading feat.

Silver Surfer detecting weaknesses is VERY, VERY QUESTIONABLE and most likelly not true

biensalsa
Originally posted by psycho gundam
the strontians consisted of just gladiator at the time, and were nameless

I'm not following you. What do you mean by that?

illadelph12
The rest of the Strontian race were dead at that point in time. Xenith still being alive wasn't introduced until a long time afterwards and was created to parallel the Kal El/Kara relationship (as Gladiator is a Supes analogue). The scale, scope, and weaknesses of Gladiator's people is not common knowledge in the MU. The Strontians are a nearly extinct race.

biensalsa
Originally posted by illadelph12
The rest of the Strontian race were dead at that point in time. Xenith still being alive wasn't introduced until a long time afterwards and was created to parallel the Kal El/Kara relationship (as Gladiator is a Supes analogue). The scale, scope, and weaknesses of Gladiator's people is not common knowledge in the MU. The Strontians are a nearly extinct race.

Fantastis Four #250 YEAR 1983

Four SKRULL posing as X-men USE a radi-blaster VS GLADIATOR

The Skrull knew it. It seems IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE at least in the Skrull empire

illadelph12
Nah, you're making a baseless assumption that the tech the Skrull's used had the exact frequency Surfer stated he would use to weaken Gladiator simply because it was a radiation based weapon. Gladiator is not impervious to all things save that specific frequency, so assuming that the weapon had to be that frequency in order to harm him and therefore means it is common knowledge is illogical.

Also, it appears that you have an ulterior motive.

biensalsa
Originally posted by illadelph12
Nah, you're making a baseless assumption that the tech the Skrull's used had the exact frequency Surfer stated he would use to weaken Gladiator simply because it was a radiation based weapon. Gladiator is not impervious to all things save that specific frequency, so assuming that the weapon had to be that frequency in order to harm him and therefore means it is common knowledge is illogical.

Also, it appears that you have an ulterior motive.

Baseless assumptions?

Gladiator is affected by certain wave or raditaion frequency and the SKRULL know it.

how is baseless that SS will have learn that weaknesses based on his countless travels in the universe?

BASELESS is thinking that SS DETECTED Glads weaknesses WHEN YOU KNOW ALL THIS FACTS

This will be at least common knowledge in the Skrull Army actually in the Skrull empire. Do you think they are not going to share this knowledge with the rest of their OWN population? laughing out loud

It seems is pretty much common KNOWLEDGE laughing out loud

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/GLADS.jpg

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
People could make an argument both ways. Surfer Cosmic awareness sense Supes AND the Martian weakness and he easily dispose of them. A Thor that is unleashing everything onto a team is a beast; his power output is next to none and his omni blast could ruin some on team 2. Then we have a two on one and if the Martian and Wonder Woman double team Surfer, I could see Surfer beating them (could be difficult) while Thor stalemate or probably beat Supes.

Team 1 has a good chance of winning due to their cosmic power and if they play their cards right.

lol.

i could warn you, but i'll leave it for now...

Black Bolt SEE
.

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
lol.

i could warn you, but i'll leave it for now...

Lol... why would you warn me... I don't believe that surfer could beat any of them that easily, I'm just going by what I have read from posters on kmc.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Lol... why would you warn me... I don't believe that surfer could beat any of them that easily, I'm just going by what I have read from posters on kmc.

don't. you're better off.

Badabing
Originally posted by -Pr-
lol.

i could warn you, but i'll leave it for now... mmm

We both could race to see who warns Carver first. biscuits

-Pr-
Originally posted by Badabing
mmm

We both could race to see who warns Carver first. biscuits

You're too top heavy, and would fall over.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
Baseless assumptions?

Gladiator is affected by certain wave or raditaion frequency and the SKRULL know it.

how is baseless that SS will have learn that weaknesses based on his countless travels in the universe?

BASELESS is thinking that SS DETECTED Glads weaknesses WHEN YOU KNOW ALL THIS FACTS

This will be at least common knowledge in the Skrull Army actually in the Skrull empire. Do you think they are not going to share this knowledge with the rest of their OWN population? laughing out loud

It seems is pretty much common KNOWLEDGE laughing out loud

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/GLADS.jpg Granting your assumptions, I suppose then that Kryptonite and red solar radiation would be common knowledge as well for as well a traveled character like Surfer. Since at least one alien race has used them against Superman. Ok, by your logic, Surfer also knows these weaknesses via common knowledge rule. Originally posted by illadelph12
Nah, you're making a baseless assumption that the tech the Skrull's used had the exact frequency Surfer stated he would use to weaken Gladiator simply because it was a radiation based weapon. Gladiator is not impervious to all things save that specific frequency, so assuming that the weapon had to be that frequency in order to harm him and therefore means it is common knowledge is illogical.

Also, it appears that you have an ulterior motive. No... really?! shock

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Granting your assumptions, I suppose then that Kryptonite and red solar radiation would be common knowledge as well for as well a traveled character like Surfer. Since at least one alien race has used them against Superman. Ok, by your logic, Surfer also knows these weaknesses via common knowledge rule. No... really?! shock

Granting my assumptions?

The ONLY ONES ASSUMING HERE, IS THE PEOPLE THAT THINK SS CAN SENSE GLADIATOR'S WEAKNESSES, LIKE YOU



Nobody say He could not know it by common knowledge.

However SS has no common knowledge of DC AND SS will not know them UNLESS they are from the same universe, are they from the same universe? laughing out loud

OneDumbG0
^ Read the rules of this forum: Originally posted by Digi

Basic Knowledge
Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not. laughing out loud indeed.

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Read the rules of this forum: laughing out loud indeed.

By the FORUM rules ONLY and that is the rules of here ONLY

Care to pit them under different rules?

But the FACT stands SS in not detecting weaknesses on anyone laughing out loud

The Nuul
Originally posted by biensalsa
By the FORUM rules ONLY and that is the rules of here ONLY

Care to pit them under different rules?


KMC rules are for KMC forums and not outside of it.

WOW!!! thats so hard to understand. Troll.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
By the FORUM rules ONLY and that is the rules of here ONLY

Care to pit them under different rules? kinda

biensalsa
Originally posted by The Nuul
KMC rules are for KMC forums and not outside of it.

WOW!!! thats so hard to understand. Troll.

I understand the RULES of KMC, he just post them a second ago.

I meant OUTSIDE KMC BRAINIAC

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
kinda

I guess that's a no

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
I understand the RULES of KMC, he just post them a second ago.

I meant OUTSIDE KMC BRAINIAC kinda kinda Originally posted by biensalsa
I guess that's a no kinda kinda kinda

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Granting your assumptions, I suppose then that Kryptonite and red solar radiation would be common knowledge as well for as well a traveled character like Surfer.

it's the general knowledge of earth's public.

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Basic Knowledge
Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not.

^ Read the rules of this forum: laughing out loud indeed.

Still the fact remains SS can create as much Kryptonite as He wants. It is harmless to Superman and Red Sun radiation? Unless they are in a black hole it will not work.

Unless you come up with another technicallity Kryptonite made by SS does not work in Superman

OneDumbG0
^ Kryptonite is harmless to Superman, no matter the quantities? kinda x4.

Red sun radiation only works when SUperman is in a black hole? kinda x5. Originally posted by -Pr-
it's the general knowledge of earth's public. That's the usual measure, since most of the time we deal with Earth-bound heroes. Kryptonians, like Strontians apparently, are more well known throughout the universe. Like biensalsa is arguing, the fact that one alien race used weakening radiation against Gladiator is clear evidence that the knowledge is common for folks who are "well-traveled" throughout the universe like Surfer... after all... it couldn't have been Surfer's simple use of Cosmic Awareness. Nope.

Alien races (and many Earth-bound foes for that matter) have used both kryptonite and red sun radiation against Kryptonians. It's therefore, according to biensalsa, common knowledge for well-traveled characters.

Surfer is a well-traveled character. He should get the benefit of the doubt the same way Earth-bound characters get the benefit of the doubt of being on Earth. If anything, Earth knowledge is something that Surfer has lacked ever since he escaped the planet. Surfer hasn't been bound to Earth in ages.

biensalsa

OneDumbG0

-Pr-
They get earth general public knowledge. end of.

It's been generally established that kryptonite has to be from the same universe to hurt the resident kryptonian.

that's assuming Surfer could even do so.

red sun on the other hand is universal, and works.

kgkg
Originally posted by biensalsa
It has been established in DC universe that ONLY kryptonite from his OWN universe harms Kryptonians from that particular universe. AND ONLY Kryptonite molecularly trans-mutated from people of the same universe will harm kryptonians from that particular universe.
I haven't been following this thread... But this statement is false.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
They get earth general public knowledge. end of. Not what the rule says:

Originally posted by Digi

Basic Knowledge
Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not. It's evident in practice. Alien GLs patrol the universe and have access to a large repository of knowledge. Salaak is limited to Earth knowledge when he fights Nova? Nonsensical. Originally posted by -Pr-
It's been generally established that kryptonite has to be from the same universe to hurt the resident kryptonian.

that's assuming Surfer could even do so.

red sun on the other hand is universal, and works. Based on Kal-L and SUperman Prime? Particularly, except in the exact last two scans that biensalsa provided in a fit of irony? When Surfer fights Kal-L and Superman Prime, I'll forego the kryptonite argument.

Surfer's matter manipulation capabilities are unmatched by other High Heralds with perhaps the exception of Firestorm.

Tell biensalsa that.

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not what the rule says:

It's evident in practice. Alien GLs patrol the universe and have access to a large repository of knowledge. Salaak is limited to Earth knowledge when he fights Nova? Nonsensical. Except in the exact last two scans that biensalsa provided in a fit of irony.

just because bada and i haven't updated it, doesn't mean anything.

the rule is earth knowledge. bada and i agreed on it. digi's post is outdated and no longer valid. we even referenced it in later posts.



and?

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
just because bada and i haven't updated it, doesn't mean anything.

the rule is earth knowledge. bada and i agreed on it. digi's post is outdated and no longer valid. we even referenced it in later posts.You'll need to clarify the rule then. Because that basic information didn't make it clear only Earth knowledge counts.

Also, it makes complete sense that say, alien GLs or Guardians only know what Marvel Earth folks know. Just as it makes sense that say, Watchers or Celestials only know what DC Earth folks know.

I'm sure this will make space-faring and cosmic-based character battles completely sensical now. Originally posted by -Pr-
and? Questioning Surfer's ability to transmute elements makes as much sense as questioning Firestorm's.

illadelph12
Originally posted by -Pr-
just because bada and i haven't updated it, doesn't mean anything.

the rule is earth knowledge. bada and i agreed on it. digi's post is outdated and no longer valid. we even referenced it in later posts.

That seems a bit illogical given that characters like, say, Metron, are completely unknown to DC Earth's general populace, but well known to his own homeworld as he's a New God. Not to mention all of the other cosmics out there. Using a character's homeworld is a bit more fair in covering situations like that (homeworld as in planet of operations, not for example Krypton for Supes).

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You'll need to clarify the rule then. Because that basic information didn't make it clear only Earth knowledge counts.

Also, it makes complete sense that say, alien GLs or Guardians only know what Marvel Earth folks know. Just as it makes sense that say, Watchers or Celestials only know what DC Earth folks know.

I'm sure this will make space-faring and cosmic-based character battles completely sensical now. Questioning Surfer's ability to transmute elements makes as much sense as questioning Firestorm's.

i wasn't questioning Surfer's powers.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That seems a bit illogical given that characters like, say, Metron, are completely unknown to DC Earth's general populace, but well known to his own homeworld as he's a New God. Not to mention all of the other cosmics out there. Using a character's homeworld is a bit more fair in covering situations like that (homeworld as in planet of operations, not for example Krypton for Supes).

ok, let me spell this out.

the character's native planet (or the main planet they operate on) is where the knowledge comes from. for most characters, it's their earth.

there are some exceptions (like the new gods), but someone like Superman wouldn't be one of them. Kilowog, say, would get whatever knowledge he has already plus that of DC Earth, and nothing else.

In the case of characters with no actual planet, vague general knowledge is given, like say for Surfer: Can fly. Can transmute. Can shoot energy blasts. Has something called power cosmic, etc.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
i wasn't questioning Surfer's powers.Ah.Originally posted by -Pr-
ok, let me spell this out.

the character's native planet (or the main planet they operate on) is where the knowledge comes from. for most characters, it's their earth.

there are some exceptions (like the new gods), but someone like Superman wouldn't be one of them. Kilowog, say, would get whatever knowledge he has already plus that of DC Earth, and nothing else. Kilowog operates on Oa. Center of the universe.

Surfer operates all over the universe.

There's no commonality there?

Why are Earth-bound characters so special that they get to share the alternate Earth's knowledge within reason? Because that's where they mainly operate on, right? But widely space-faring characters get handicapped that they don't get to share the alternate universe's knowledge within reason? EVen though that's where they mainly operate in, no?Originally posted by -Pr-
In the case of characters with no actual planet, vague general knowledge is given, like say for Surfer: Can fly. Can transmute. Can shoot energy blasts. Has something called power cosmic, etc. This "vague general knowledge" comes from the common knowledge derived from the spaceways presumably since Surfer is so famous as being the Herald of Galactus, right?

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ah. Kilowog operates on Oa. Center of the universe.

Surfer operates all over the universe.

There's no commonality there?

Why are Earth-bound characters so special that they get to share the alternate Earth's knowledge within reason? Because that's where they mainly operate on, right? But widely space-faring characters get handicapped that they don't get to share the alternate universe's knowledge within reason? EVen though that's where they mainly operate in, no? This "vague general knowledge" comes from the common knowledge derived from the spaceways presumably since Surfer is so famous as being the Herald of Galactus, right?

No.

Kilowog gets his knowledge from Superman's planet, not his own. Superman gets his knowledge from Oa seeing as there's no Bolivax. This is how we handle cross universe matches.

OneDumbG0
^ So Superman would get the knowledge of the Shiar homeworld when fighting Gladiator... when someone like Hulk doesn't even get that?

So Beta Ray Bill would get the knowledge of Colu when fighting Braniacs... when someone like Majestic doesn't even get that?

biensalsa
Originally posted by kgkg
I haven't been following this thread... But this statement is false.

This has been true even before the crisis.

Do you remember Superman in the pocket universe?

Did he or did he not use kryptonite the did not affected him?

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Since when is Superman-2 or Superman Prime = Superman? Particularly when Superman-Prime actually got hurt by alternate universe kryptonite? kinda x6. The same way characters have used red sun radiation against him all the time. Acting like he must be in a black hole for red sun radiation to work is more retarded than your HV ionization theory. Ruin didn't need a blackhole to hurt him. Dr. Faustus didn't need a blackhole to hurt him, twice. Hell... Superboy Prime didn't even need a blackhole to hurt him.

kinda x7. Enough stress that he still loses hard if Surfer uses the tactics... notwithstanding just being plain overpowered.

You have there scans from modern superman using kryptonite that does not affected him.

You are just disregarding evidence

Even if surfer could depower SM you are just low balling him, he has been shown to get his powers back fast under a yellow sun, He has even survived a red giants core while under the same situation

Felix Faust? Come on HE IS USING MAGICAL RED SUN FLAMES and not even that KILLED HIM

SBP is not Surfer BY A LONG SHOT

When did Superman prime got hurted by alternate universe Kryptonite, even if it was true it can be based on ignorance of the writter, since MOST cases prove the contrary

And plain overpower by the Surfer laughing out loud

In this kind of statements you can see when is worth to debate someone who has probably NEVER read a Superman comic other than DOS

Oak Parker
No way Thor and Surfer can beat these three. First of all, Thor is slower and less mobile than everyone else here. He can't defend from a blitz from Superman and WW or WW and MM. Surfer while more powerful than anyone here isn't so powerful that he can resist magic lassos and tiaras, Super vision blasts, and MM intergalactic level TP.

biensalsa
"Questioning Surfer's ability to transmute elements makes as much sense as questioning Firestorm's. "

Who is questioning Surfer's capabilities of create elements?
NO ONE IS DOING THAT. Is just a simple rule that He can create as much Kryptonite as HE WANTS it will not work on Superman of Universe designated one or in any other Superman for that matter.

BY THIS RULE SS transmutated Kryptonite Will only work on a Kryptonian from SS universe.

Who is saying that He cannot transmutate Kryptonite?

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
Who is questioning Surfer's capabilities of create elements?
NO ONE IS DOING THAT. Is just a simple rule that He can create as much Kryptonite as HE WANTS it will not work on Superman of Universe designated one or in any other Superman for that matter.

BY THIS RULE SS transmutated Kryptonite Will only work on a Kryptonian from SS universe. Except you just posted scans where a Superman was affected by alternate-universe Kryptonite that was spontaneously transmuted. kinda x8. Originally posted by biensalsa
You have there scans from modern superman using kryptonite that does not affected him.

You are just disregarding evidenceSuperman-2 and Superman-Prime are not Superman. Originally posted by biensalsa
Even if surfer could depower SM you are just low balling him, he has been shown to get his powers back fast under a yellow sun, He has even survived a red giants core while under the same situation

Felix Faust? Come on HE IS USING MAGICAL RED SUN FLAMES and not even that KILLED HIM

SBP is not Surfer BY A LONG SHOTFine, Surfer sucks the yellow sun radiation from him instantly and/or prevents him from absorbing anymore yellow sun radiation.

No. Felix Faust only magically summoned the red sun flames from Rao. And they knocked Superman for a loop both times. Nowhere was it suggested that he gave those flames a magical twist to them.

Superman is not SBP either. How ironic that you keep trying to use Superman Prime feats for Superman. Originally posted by biensalsa
When did Superman prime got hurted by alternate universe Kryptonite, even if it was true it can be based on ignorance of the writter, since MOST cases prove the contrary

And plain overpower by the Surfer

In this kind of statements you can see when is worth to debate someone who has probably NEVER read a Superman comic other than DOS Ignorance of the writer? The same ignorance that Geoff Johns decided to display when he had Superman Prime not hurt by alternate universe Kryptonite when he introduced him and then had him hurt by alternate universe Kryptonite in another storyline?

Yes. Silver Surfer is more powerful than Superman. This is established.

You can question my knowledge of Superman all you want. As it stands, you suggesting that Superman can't be hurt by red sun radiation without a black hole around tells me enough about your knowledge of Superman. The days where you can shamelessly promulgate myths on KMC are long over. Don't be stucking fupid.

kgkg
Originally posted by biensalsa
This has been true even before the crisis.

Do you remember Superman in the pocket universe?

Did he or did he not use kryptonite the did not affected him? That is not what am disagree with.
So if i show a scan of Superman getting affected by kryptonite and the character is not from Superman's home universe you will concede on the matter?

The only thing that is true is that kryptonite from different earth has no affect on the Superman of different worlds but people from different earth are still able to recreate that type of K-Nite if needed.

kgkg
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Except you just posted scans where a Superman was affected by alternate-universe Kryptonite that was spontaneously transmuted. kinda x8. That part was explained near the end of FC Legion of Three Worlds 5 Brainiac 5 explains that Lightning Lad was from Earth Prime.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6842/krpt.jpg

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ So Superman would get the knowledge of the Shiar homeworld when fighting Gladiator... when someone like Hulk doesn't even get that?

So Beta Ray Bill would get the knowledge of Colu when fighting Braniacs... when someone like Majestic doesn't even get that?

Why wouldn't they?

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by -Pr-
Why wouldn't they?

You need to get an Xbox soon!

-Pr-
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
You need to get an Xbox soon!

lol why?

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by -Pr-
lol why?

http://marvel.com/news/all.14306.nycc~colon~_x-men_arcade_coming_to_psn_and_xbox_live

-Pr-
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
http://marvel.com/news/all.14306.nycc~colon~_x-men_arcade_coming_to_psn_and_xbox_live

laughing out loud

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Except you just posted scans where a Superman was affected by alternate-universe Kryptonite that was spontaneously transmuted. kinda x8.

I'm aware you don't read DC comics, so let me explain this to you, The Kryptonite created by elemental lad that actually hurt SBP it was because THAT Elemental Lad was FROM THE PRIME UNIVERSE. Now The Firestorm from "OUR" Universe tried the same trick on SBP and it did NOT WORK. Firestorm is better at matter transmutation than Surfer. So if Firestorm couldn't pull the trick of creating alternative universe Kryptonite, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK Silver Surfer can? And Firestorm WILL HAVE more knowledge of this, because He lives in the same world with Superman

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman-2 and Superman-Prime are not Superman.

I'm aware of that, that is WHY I also presented you a scan of "our" Superman handling Kryptonite from another universe, with out causing him any harm


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fine, Surfer sucks the yellow sun radiation from him instantly and/or prevents him from absorbing anymore yellow sun radiation.

I love this one "INSTANTLY" laughing out loud x 20 you have to consider the FACT that He can retain yellow sun energy BASED on his stress level.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. Felix Faust only magically summoned the red sun flames from Rao. And they knocked Superman for a loop both times. Nowhere was it suggested that he gave those flames a magical twist to them.

Where does it says that He is Magically summoning Red Sun Flames from RAO? He is SPELLCASTING Red Sun energy

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Superman%20vsmagick/RedSunMysticalenergy.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman is not SBP either. How ironic that you keep trying to use Superman Prime feats for Superman. Ignorance of the writer? The same ignorance that Geoff Johns decided to display when he had Superman Prime not hurt by alternate universe Kryptonite when he introduced him and then had him hurt by alternate universe Kryptonite in another storyline?

I'm not trying to use SBP feats as Superman feats, I just showed you how Kryptonite rules work. YOU ARE ASUMMING I'm trying to do that because you are pretty at ASUMMING things. The Geoff Johns Kryptonite incident has already been explained to you. If you need me to take your hand and guide you through the whole thing, just ask I will gladly help you smokin'

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes. Silver Surfer is more powerful than Superman. This is established.

Where HERE? Pardon me if I let you in a little secret. Most people who argue in this forums are UNAWARE like yourself of all this little FACTS I have been showing here. Most people think SS has no weaknesses, which is a misconception, all Superhero have weaknesses. Most people are not aware that SS cannot detect powers, in fact they ASSUME based on a scan that Silver Surfer can detect weaknesses. They also believe Silver Surfer has NANOSECOND reaction time because of another misdirected feat, in which He is portrayed removing some shackles "form Galactus" What is conveniently omitted is that is a Hallucination created by a fear eater. So the ONLY nanosecond reaction time feat Surfer has is an ALLUCINATION. Most people are unaware that Kryptonite created by Surfer will not affect kryptonians from another universe and so on and so on.

Also they still think this is Superman from DOS vs Surfer, they are not aware CURRENT Superman is more powerful.

All that, plus the CRITICAL INFORMATION Omitted in a lot of SS feats.

For example, like you thinking that Silver Surfer wins "INSTANTLY"


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You can question my knowledge of Superman all you want. As it stands, you suggesting that Superman can't be hurt by red sun radiation without a black hole around tells me enough about your knowledge of Superman.

Hummm, He does not get HURT by Red Sun radiation, Have you ever seen Kryptonians in Krypton yelling in pain because of RAO? Maybe if they go to the beach and get a EXTREME TAN, RED SUN RADIATION WILL HURT, but other than that Red Sun Radiation DOES NOT HURT KRYPTONIANS laughing out loud X 1000.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The days where you can shamelessly promulgate myths on KMC are long over. Don't be stucking fupid.

This was probably the FUNNIEST LINE laughing out loud X 2000

biensalsa
Originally posted by kgkg
That is not what am disagree with.

Then where is the disagreement? sad

carver9
Originally posted by biensalsa
I'm aware you don't read DC comics, so let me explain this to you, The Kryptonite created by elemental lad that actually hurt SBP it was because THAT Elemental Lad was FROM THE PRIME UNIVERSE. Now The Firestorm from "OUR" Universe tried the same trick on SBP and it did NOT WORK. Firestorm is better at matter transmutation than Surfer. So if Firestorm couldn't pull the trick of creating alternative universe Kryptonite, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK Silver Surfer can? And Firestorm WILL HAVE more knowledge of this, because He lives in the same world with Superman



I'm aware of that, that is WHY I also presented you a scan of "our" Superman handling Kryptonite from another universe, with out causing him any harm




I love this one "INSTANTLY" laughing out loud x 20 you have to consider the FACT that He can retain yellow sun energy BASED on his stress level.




Where does it says that He is Magically summoning Red Sun Flames from RAO? He is SPELLCASTING Red Sun energy

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Superman%20vsmagick/RedSunMysticalenergy.jpg



I'm not trying to use SBP feats as Superman feats, I just showed you how Kryptonite rules work. YOU ARE ASUMMING I'm trying to do that because you are pretty at ASUMMING things. The Geoff Johns Kryptonite incident has already been explained to you. If you need me to take your hand and guide you through the whole thing, just ask I will gladly help you smokin'



Where HERE? Pardon me if I let you in a little secret. Most people who argue in this forums are UNAWARE like yourself of all this little FACTS I have been showing here. Most people think SS has no weaknesses, which is a misconception, all Superhero have weaknesses. Most people are not aware that SS cannot detect powers, in fact they ASSUME based on a scan that Silver Surfer can detect weaknesses. They also believe Silver Surfer has NANOSECOND reaction time because of another misdirected feat, in which He is portrayed removing some shackles "form Galactus" What is conveniently omitted is that is a Hallucination created by a fear eater. So the ONLY nanosecond reaction time feat Surfer has is an ALLUCINATION. Most people are unaware that Kryptonite created by Surfer will not affect kryptonians from another universe and so on and so on.

Also they still think this is Superman from DOS vs Surfer, they are not aware CURRENT Superman is more powerful.

All that, plus the CRITICAL INFORMATION Omitted in a lot of SS feats.

For example, like you thinking that Silver Surfer wins "INSTANTLY"




Hummm, He does not get HURT by Red Sun radiation, Have you ever seen Kryptonians in Krypton yelling in pain because of RAO? Maybe if they go to the beach and get a EXTREME TAN, RED SUN RADIATION WILL HURT, but other than that Red Sun Radiation DOES NOT HURT KRYPTONIANS laughing out loud X 1000.



This was probably the FUNNIEST LINE laughing out loud X 2000

Nnnnoooo, silver surfer is clearly far more powerful than clark. Silver surfer blasting power alone was so powerful that it was creating planet sized black holes in space that even made thanos flee. Silver surfer is so powerful that with a minor powerup during a fight during annihilation he destroyed a planet. Let's not forget him absorbing an entire sun into him, going back in time, creating life and the list goes on.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
Why wouldn't they? Because someone like Hercules doesn't have the knowledge of general Shiar denizens have of Gladiator. Why would a DC character get more knowledge injected into him because of KMC rules? Strikes me as somewhat of an absurd result. We've had similar discussions in the past. Originally posted by kgkg
That part was explained near the end of FC Legion of Three Worlds 5 Brainiac 5 explains that Lightning Lad was from Earth Prime.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6842/krpt.jpg ohno

So among other things, how would you explain Jonah Hex killing Superman with kryptonite bullets in Absolute Power, or Superman worrying about getting too close to the kryptonite shard in DC One Million (which didn't turn out to be kryptonite, but he was still worried)?

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
I'm aware you don't read DC comics, so let me explain this to you, The Kryptonite created by elemental lad that actually hurt SBP it was because THAT Elemental Lad was FROM THE PRIME UNIVERSE. Now The Firestorm from "OUR" Universe tried the same trick on SBP and it did NOT WORK. Firestorm is better at matter transmutation than Surfer. So if Firestorm couldn't pull the trick of creating alternative universe Kryptonite, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK Silver Surfer can? And Firestorm WILL HAVE more knowledge of this, because He lives in the same world with SupermanI'm aware your facetiousness is wasted. Superman =/= Superman Prime. Originally posted by biensalsa
I'm aware of that, that is WHY I also presented you a scan of "our" Superman handling Kryptonite from another universe, with out causing him any harm So the assumption is Surfer is going to be making that type of kryptonite or Superman Prime's kryptonite, instead of Superman's kryptonite? Originally posted by biensalsa
I love this one "INSTANTLY" laughing out loud x 20 you have to consider the FACT that He can retain yellow sun energy BASED on his stress level.

Where does it says that He is Magically summoning Red Sun Flames from RAO? He is SPELLCASTING Red Sun energy

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Superman%20vsmagick/RedSunMysticalenergy.jpgSo what? The amount of energy Hulk harnesses is also directly related to his stress levels. Hasn't prevented Surfer from utterly stripping them in moments and Superman's stress levels haven't prevented him from being hurt by red sun radiation. Stop pretending like it doesn't affect him if he's mad.

So anytime a magician summons something through mystic powers, the object automatically becomes imbued with magical properties? K, interesting. Noted for future reference. In any case, the scene I was referencing was in Crisis of Conscience. Dr Faustus specifically says he summons red rays (or flames) directly from Rao and lays out Superman with them. They hurt Superman. Originally posted by biensalsa
I'm not trying to use SBP feats as Superman feats, I just showed you how Kryptonite rules work. YOU ARE ASUMMING I'm trying to do that because you are pretty at ASUMMING things. The Geoff Johns Kryptonite incident has already been explained to you. If you need me to take your hand and guide you through the whole thing, just ask I will gladly help you By kgkg. Which is still Superman Prime. I also see how hard you're trying to help me understand your myth propogation that red sun energy doesn't affect Superman when he's stressed, i.e., you'd need a blackhole + red sun energy. Hilarious. Originally posted by biensalsa
Where HERE? Pardon me if I let you in a little secret. Most people who argue in this forums are UNAWARE like yourself of all this little FACTS I have been showing here. Most people think SS has no weaknesses, which is a misconception, all Superhero have weaknesses. Most people are not aware that SS cannot detect powers, in fact they ASSUME based on a scan that Silver Surfer can detect weaknesses. They also believe Silver Surfer has NANOSECOND reaction time because of another misdirected feat, in which He is portrayed removing some shackles "form Galactus" What is conveniently omitted is that is a Hallucination created by a fear eater. So the ONLY nanosecond reaction time feat Surfer has is an ALLUCINATION. Most people are unaware that Kryptonite created by Surfer will not affect kryptonians from another universe and so on and so on. Surfer's statements are Surfer's statements. I am aware you're gleefully enjoying a double-standard when you believe PC Superman's statements that his karate chop would have split a diamond planet but Surfer stating he did something in a nano-second cannot be trusted. Originally posted by biensalsa
Also they still think this is Superman from DOS vs Surfer, they are not aware CURRENT Superman is more powerful.

All that, plus the CRITICAL INFORMATION Omitted in a lot of SS feats.

For example, like you thinking that Silver Surfer wins "INSTANTLY"I said Surfer wins instantly? You should get your own comic book series what with your superpower enabling you to rewrite history. I won't accuse you of straw-manning me. You're far too smart to fall into those tactics. Originally posted by biensalsa
Hummm, He does not get HURT by Red Sun radiation, Have you ever seen Kryptonians in Krypton yelling in pain because of RAO? Maybe if they go to the beach and get a EXTREME TAN, RED SUN RADIATION WILL HURT, but other than that Red Sun Radiation DOES NOT HURT KRYPTONIANS laughing out loud X 1000.

This was probably the FUNNIEST LINE laughing out loud X 2000 ... you're kidding me. Srsly? "This was probably the FUNNIEST LINE laughing out loud X 2000" indeed.

Quite a bit funnier than your "HV-depowers-Surfer" myth. I wonder how far you'll take this "red-sun-energy-doesn't-hurt-Superman-unless-he's-in-a-blackhole" myth. If the past is any indication, you won't disappoint.

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because someone like Hercules doesn't have the knowledge of general Shiar denizens have of Gladiator. Why would a DC character get more knowledge injected into him because of KMC rules? Strikes me as somewhat of an absurd result. We've had similar discussions in the past. ohno

So among other things, how would you explain Jonah Hex killing Superman with kryptonite bullets in Absolute Power, or Superman worrying about getting too close to the kryptonite shard in DC One Million (which didn't turn out to be kryptonite, but he was still worried)?

hercules would get that knowledge too if it was that big a deal to you.

come to think of it Badabing and I did actually clarify this in the CIP post in the rules.

Martian Manhunter would by no means get more knowledge of Gladiator than Hercules would.



also, Red Sun doesn't actually cause Superman any pain. It just robs him of his powers.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
hercules would get that knowledge too if it was that big a deal to you.

come to think of it Badabing and I did actually clarify this in the CIP post in the rules.

Martian Manhunter would by no means get more knowledge of Gladiator than Hercules would. ... why would Hercules know more about Gladiator than he actually does on-panel? That's an even more absurd result. Originally posted by -Pr-
also, Red Sun doesn't actually cause Superman any pain. It just robs him of his powers. Superman crying out in pain says otherwise.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman crying out in pain says otherwise.
When was this?

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
... why would Hercules know more about Gladiator than he actually does on-panel? That's an even more absurd result. Superman crying out in pain says otherwise.

sweet f*ck dude.

they get basic knowledge. that's it. extremely vague knowledge if they've never fought the character before. if they HAVE fought them before, then they have that knowledge too.

seriously, what's your issue with this? what do you want from me, because it feels like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing at this point.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
When was this?

mcduffie's jla maybe?

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
sweet f*ck dude.

they get basic knowledge. that's it. extremely vague knowledge if they've never fought the character before. if they HAVE fought them before, then they have that knowledge too.

seriously, what's your issue with this? what do you want from me, because it feels like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing at this point.But why is Hercules getting that much more extra knowledge of a character he's never even met before? You're giving Hercules the Shiar home planet's general knowledge. That makes no sense. Since when did we start inflating intra-universe fights like this?

This is exactly the line of reasoning we discussed with character mindset in this thread (and me particularly in the fourth-to-last-post): http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=503207&pagenumber=4 Your "solution" that now Hercules is injected with knowledge is wholly needless.

Spacefaring characters get a measure of knowledge that would be obtained from roaming the spaceways. Surfer travelling the Marvel Universe. We know what that knowledge is within the universe when he fights someone like the Phalanx. We don't need to give him extra+ knowledge when he fights them such that he knows their Technarchy homeworld's knowledge now. He just doesn't have it. Why are we changing the character? We try, within reason, to inject that same sort of general knowledge into him when he deals with characters from a different universe. But this is all that's needed.

This is exactly how we treat Earth-based heroes. Earth-based heroes get a measure of knowledge that would be obtained from living on Earth. Hercules living on Earth. We know what that knowledge is within the universe when he fights someone like Gladiator. We don't need to give him extra+ knowledge when he fights him such that he knows the Shiar homeworld's knowledge now. He just doesn't have it. Why are we changing the character? We try, within reason, to inject that same sort of general Earth-based knowledge into him when he deals with characters from a different universe. But this is all that's needed. Originally posted by Omega Vision
When was this? Originally posted by -Pr-
mcduffie's jla maybe? Twice in that fight IIRC. Crisis of Conscience. Also when Superman fights Ruin in Adventures of Superman #645-47. Pretty sure the idea is that the pain comes from Superman having to cope with his body being blocked/drained of its powers. Hell Superman Prime yelps in Sinestro Corps War.

-Pr-
i remember that thread. The CIP post was actually partially a response to that, iirc.

The general knowledge thing is a maximum, not a minimum.

Hercules doesn't automatically get all the knowledge of Gladiator's homeworld, but if you wanted him to have general knowledge, that would be what it consisted of (that or general earth knowledge, whichever you wanted).

most fights take the stance that both men are strangers, and we go from there. it's when people started wanting general knowledge that we gave them a set of guidelines.

iirc amazo was blasting him with actual energy blasts, not just bathing him in radiation. he was blasting him and changed the frequency to red sun, so i don't consider it the same thing.

i don't recall the red sun actually hurting him in the Ruin story, but its been a while since i read it.

You yourself said Prime =/= Superman. stick out tongue

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
i remember that thread. The CIP post was actually partially a response to that, iirc.

The general knowledge thing is a maximum, not a minimum.

Hercules doesn't automatically get all the knowledge of Gladiator's homeworld, but if you wanted him to have general knowledge, that would be what it consisted of (that or general earth knowledge, whichever you wanted).

most fights take the stance that both men are strangers, and we go from there. it's when people started wanting general knowledge that we gave them a set of guidelines.Methinks the guidelines are hazy enough for interpretation. But I think further nitpicking is counter-productive. I'll try to not derail threads with it. Although, this all came about from biensalsa's assumption that Surfer's knowledge of Gladiator's weakness was due to his common knowledge roaming the spaceways. Originally posted by -Pr-
iirc amazo was blasting him with actual energy blasts, not just bathing him in radiation. he was blasting him and changed the frequency to red sun, so i don't consider it the same thing.

i don't recall the red sun actually hurting him in the Ruin story, but its been a while since i read it. I think the red sun radiation part of it had more to do with the pain than anything else. Meh. And Crisis of Conscience was all Rao red sun rays. Unless you subscribe to biensalsa's theory that magical summoning automatically turns things summoned magical.

He yelps a few times. And it's pretty clear it hurts from the reactions on his face. I can scan some scenes if you want. Originally posted by -Pr-
You yourself said Prime =/= Superman. stick out tongue crackers

kgkg
Originally posted by biensalsa
Originally posted by kgkg
That is not what am disagree with.

Then where is the disagreement? sad I'm disagreeing with the part where you said Originally posted by biensalsa
. AND ONLY Kryptonite molecularly trans-mutated from people of the same universe will harm kryptonians from that particular universe.
Kryptonite from alternate universe doesn't necessary affect mainstream Superman we have seen cases like this a few times... But I'm not sure where your getting the part that the characters creating Knite have to be from his home universe to affect him.

The only reason why these alternate universe's Kryptonite doesn't affect him is that it they produce different radiation. < as noted by Superman when he was fighting Time Trapper's Super boy>

kgkg
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So among other things, how would you explain Jonah Hex killing Superman with kryptonite bullets in Absolute Power, or Superman worrying about getting too close to the kryptonite shard in DC One Million (which didn't turn out to be kryptonite, but he was still worried)? The only time I recall New earth Superman not getting affected by K-nite were both from Pre-Crisis era Knite. Time lines were changing but the Knite radiation could have remained the same.


Also DC one Million is from New earth but from the future so unless I missed something I don't see why it wouldn't affect Superman.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
It has been established in DC universe that ONLY kryptonite from his OWN universe harms Kryptonians from that particular universe. AND ONLY Kryptonite molecularly trans-mutated from people of the same universe will harm kryptonians from that particular universe. Originally posted by kgkg
I'm disagreeing with the part where you said Kryptonite from alternate universe doesn't necessary affect mainstream Superman we have seen cases like this a few times... But I'm not sure where your getting the part that the characters creating Knite have to be from his home universe to affect him. What we can be sure of is that biensalsa never read this scene in Superman/Batman #18, where Cosmic King, who is from an alternate reality, transmuted Superman's blood iron into kryptonite:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Kryptonite01.jpg

illadelph12
Ouch.

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What we can be sure of is that biensalsa never read this scene in Superman/Batman #18, where Cosmic King, who is from an alternate reality, transmuted Superman's blood iron into kryptonite:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Kryptonite01.jpg

That was an alternate universe Superman too, iirc.

OneDumbG0
^ Real Superman. Reality kept shifting around him and Batman. And no matter what, that Superman and that Cosmic King were not from the same reality.

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Real Superman. Reality kept shifting around him and Batman. And no matter what, that Superman and that Cosmic King were not from the same reality.

It's been a while since i read it, so you could be right.

Assuming Superman has iron in his blood, how does that relate to kryptonite?

OneDumbG0
^ A character from a different universe transmuted kryptonite that hurt Superman on-panel. Contrary to biensalsa's proclamations/predictions.

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ A character from a different universe transmuted kryptonite that hurt Superman on-panel. Contrary to biensalsa's proclamations/predictions.

oh right, i only half read the panel.

i'd wonder if johns' writing of the other supermen doesn't apply to earth 1 superman, then, unless his was a broader retcon.

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm aware your facetiousness is wasted. Superman =/= Superman Prime.


No, Sir, you are accusing me of something that is not true, trying to rest credibility to my argument.

ON PANEL AND WITH PROOF, I showed you why Kryptonite made by someone who is not from Superman's universe or Kryptonite not from Superman's universe will not harm Superman. Element Lad from Prime universe was the only one capable of creating Kryptonite that Hurts Superboy Prime, Firestorm was not capable of doing it.

Firestorm HAS MORE KNOWLEDGE OF KRYPTONITE AND IS MORE CAPABLE THAN SILVER SURFER TO DO THIS

I'll ask you again
"Now The Firestorm from "OUR" Universe tried the same trick on SBP and it did NOT WORK. Firestorm is better at matter transmutation than Surfer. So if Firestorm couldn't pull the trick of creating alternative universe Kryptonite, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK Silver Surfer can? "

Kryptonite from DIFFERENT universes have a different wave length radiation, in addition to that, they work on a different vibrational pattern.

I'm looking for that evidence, because It has been said before, but I do not remember in which Issue it was stated.

So in order for Firestorm to make Knite that Hurts Superman from earth 3 He will have to make it the same wave length + match the vibrational pattern universe 3.

I'm looking for this evidence and as soon as I find it, I will post it.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So the assumption is Surfer is going to be making that type of kryptonite or Superman Prime's kryptonite, instead of Superman's kryptonite?

No, the rule is that Silver Surfer will be able to create Kryptonite that harms Kryptonians from Silver Surfer's universe, which is this case it COULD be someone who is Superman's counterpart in Marvel Universe.

Besides and in order to put an end to this myth of "SS creating Kryptonite".

Rules of the forum say "Everybody knows Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite" granted that is a huge disadvantage for Superman, BUT, the CHEMICAL COMPOSITION AND RADIOACTIVE WAVELENGTH OF KNITE IS NOT COMMON KNOWLEDGE laughing out loud

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So what? The amount of energy Hulk harnesses is also directly related to his stress levels. Hasn't prevented Surfer from utterly stripping them in moments and Superman's stress levels haven't prevented him from being hurt by red sun radiation. Stop pretending like it doesn't affect him if he's mad.

Why then was He able to fly INSIDE RAO?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/CRAZY%20FEATS/supermanfliesthroughrao.jpg

Why then He was capable of power up the ION engines to move Krypton under a red sun?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS4.jpg


And I find it funny how you accuse of trying to portray Superman as Superboy Prime, when you are trying to do the same but with the HULK laughing out loud

"The more stress he is under, the more energy He RETAINS from the sun"

Does Hulk RETAINS more energy based on his stress level?

WWH ENDING ANYONE?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Hulk/HULKWWH.jpg


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So anytime a magician summons something through mystic powers, the object automatically becomes imbued with magical properties? K, interesting. Noted for future reference. In any case, the scene I was referencing was in Crisis of Conscience. Dr Faustus specifically says he summons red rays (or flames) directly from Rao and lays out Superman with them. They hurt Superman.

Crisis of Conscience, Yes Faust Summons "red" rays from Rao, which they look to me pretty much WHITE. In any case MAGICK again.

How I can explain this to you? OK if it is not NATURALLY there and it appears MAGICALLY there, IS MAGIC, Specially if it's done by spell-casters laughing out loud


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
By kgkg. Which is still Superman Prime. I also see how hard you're trying to help me understand your myth propagation that red sun energy doesn't affect Superman when he's stressed, i.e., you'd need a black hole + red sun energy. Hilarious.


No, you assuming AGAIN and really you need guidance so you can understand what I'm saying. Red Sun energy does affect Superman, HOWEVER IF YOU ACTUALLY READ AND COMPREHENDED THE SCANS, you will realize that "The more stress he is under, the more energy He RETAINS from the sun"
To effectively drain him out, He will need to be out of contact from any sun light or starlight as He has also been powered by starlight and Plant mitosis in the past. So, Good Luck with that big grin


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Surfer's statements are Surfer's statements. I am aware you're gleefully enjoying a double-standard when you believe PC Superman's statements that his karate chop would have split a diamond planet but Surfer stating he did something in a nano-second cannot be trusted.

No, PC Superman saying that He can split a diamond planet in Half is believable, CURRENT Superman at his Current power level in which He lifts singularities is conceivable. Silver Surfer being capable of move is limbs at nanosecond reaction time? ONLY IN HALLUCINATIONS created by the fear eater big grin

"FEAR-EATERS
(KKALLAKKI)

Classification: Extra-terrestrial, demonspawn

Location/Base of Operations: Mobile throughout known universe

Known Members: One unnamed (deceased)

Affiliations: Offspring of the Fear Lord Kkallakku, Cold War (created by a fear-eater)

Enemies: Captain (Steve Rogers), Daredevil, Silver Surfer, Thing, Thor

First Appearance: Marvel Comics Presents#1/4 (September, 1988)

Powers/Abilities: The Fear-Eaters exist entirely off of fear of other beings. They can phase extra-dimensionally, assuming an immaterial form, and merge with a host. Once merged, they can read the minds of their host, determining its greatest fears. The Fear-Eater than can generate hallucinations which cause the host to confront its greatest fear. The Fear-Eater draws strength from this and will continue to cause intense fear until its victim either dies or overcomes its fears. If a Fear-Eater is deprived of fear for too long of a period, it will die of starvation. "






Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I said Surfer wins instantly? You should get your own comic book series what with your superpower enabling you to rewrite history. I won't accuse you of straw-manning me. You're far too smart to fall into those tactics.

No you did not said that EXPLICITLY, However every time I see a post of you, you give the impression and the Idea that in a fight between this two SS will win 10/10 and As far as I remember most of the time you claim this as stomp. Didn't you said:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fine, Surfer sucks the yellow sun radiation from him INSTANTLY and/or prevents him from absorbing anymore yellow sun radiation.

This gives the impression that According to you Silver Surfer sucks the yellow sun radiation from him INSTANTLY and wins laughing out loud

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
... you're kidding me. Srsly? "This was probably the FUNNIEST LINE laughing out loud X 2000" indeed.
Quite a bit funnier than your "HV-depowers-Surfer" myth. I wonder how far you'll take this "red-sun-energy-doesn't-hurt-Superman-unless-he's-in-a-blackhole" myth. If the past is any indication, you won't disappoint.

You still sore for that? Sorry big grin. And get it in your head RED SUN'S DOES NOT HURT KRYPTONIANS, unless the kryptonians are in direct contact with the flames from the sun, Oh! wait maybe not.

I DON'T SEE ANYONE IN PAIN

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/CRAZY%20FEATS/supermanfliesthroughrao.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS2.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS3.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS5.jpg

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman crying out in pain says otherwise.

MAGICK + RED SUN FLAMES OR BLAST

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Twice in that fight IIRC. Crisis of Conscience. Also when Superman fights Ruin in Adventures of Superman #645-47. Pretty sure the idea is that the pain comes from Superman having to cope with his body being blocked/drained of its powers. Hell Superman Prime yelps in Sinestro Corps War.

Should you actually OWN OR HAVE READ those comics, You will actually see how wrong You are. Here let me help you again

Sinestro Corps War:

THE GUYS IS A FREAKING WALKING STAR OF COURSE IS GOING TO HURT

Crisis of Conscience

MAGIC + RED SUN ENERGY BLAST

Adventures of Superman #645-47:

I DID NOT saw him screaming not even once. And I saw him regaining his powers after being attacked by someone who has WAAAAAAAAAY MORE THAN COMMON KNOWLEDGE on Superman, The guy is being studying Superman for SEVERAL YEARS, He knows Superman better than Superman himself AND He BASED ON HIS VAST KNOWLEDGE ON SUPERMAN HE designed a machine to exactly depower him.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I think the red sun radiation part of it had more to do with the pain than anything else. Meh.

He yelps a few times. And it's pretty clear it hurts from the reactions on his face. I can scan some scenes if you want.

IS SURFER A WALKING RED SUN? Plus You have seen PLENTY of examples of Kryptonians under Red Sun Radiation. It does not hurt. Ignorance could be attributed to those depictions or an unknown factor involved

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What we can be sure of is that biensalsa never read this scene in Superman/Batman #18, where Cosmic King, who is from an alternate reality, transmuted Superman's blood iron into kryptonite:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Kryptonite01.jpg

Kindergarten mistake

Since when ALTERNATE TIME LINES OF A UNIVERSE IS = TO A DIFFERENT UNIVERSE?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ A character from a different universe transmuted kryptonite that hurt Superman on-panel. Contrary to biensalsa's proclamations/predictions.

laughing out loud A character from the same universe on a different time-line did it

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So among other things, how would you explain Jonah Hex killing Superman with kryptonite bullets in Absolute Power, or Superman worrying about getting too close to the kryptonite shard in DC One Million (which didn't turn out to be kryptonite, but he was still worried)?

Parallel time lines, same UNIVERSE

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Like biensalsa is arguing, the fact that one alien race used weakening radiation against Gladiator is clear evidence that the knowledge is common for folks who are "well-traveled" throughout the universe like Surfer... after all... it couldn't have been Surfer's simple use of Cosmic Awareness.

If you can prove that Galactus Devourer is the first time they meet. I concede that SS can detect weaknesses. And "detecting" TELEPATHS does not cut it.

biensalsa
Originally posted by kgkg
I'm disagreeing with the part where you said Kryptonite from alternate universe doesn't necessary affect mainstream Superman we have seen cases like this a few times... But I'm not sure where your getting the part that the characters creating Knite have to be from his home universe to affect him.

The only reason why these alternate universe's Kryptonite doesn't affect him is that it they produce different radiation. < as noted by Superman when he was fighting Time Trapper's Super boy>

I do remember an instance in which it was said that the Kryptonite has to be attuned to the vibrational pattern of the Kryptonian as well, besides the radiation and this was the explination why Kryptonite did not worked on other universe kryptonians, but like I said I so not remember where this was and I'm looking for it

This was probably somebody trying to make a plan to bring SBP down with a molecular transmutator and I think Batman said something along the lines of having to match as well the vibrational pattern of the universe, besiedes the exact frequency of the Knite.

I could be wrong, but I will keep looking for it

biensalsa
Originally posted by illadelph12
Ouch.

You are cheerlading the wrong argument laughing out loud

biensalsa
Originally posted by carver9
Nnnnoooo, silver surfer is clearly far more powerful than clark. Silver surfer blasting power alone was so powerful that it was creating planet sized black holes in space that even made thanos flee. Silver surfer is so powerful that with a minor powerup during a fight during annihilation he destroyed a planet. Let's not forget him absorbing an entire sun into him, going back in time, creating life and the list goes on.

I guess this knowledge comes from:

"I'm just going by what I have read from posters on kmc."

And not by actually reading COMICS

carver9
Originally posted by biensalsa
I guess this knowledge comes from:

"I'm just going by what I have read from posters on kmc."

And not by actually reading COMICS

So I guess this means that you can't counter my argument huh? How about silver surfer creating clones of himself with their own personality. Linking everyone on the planet earth to his mind... letting them experience how it feels to fly through space. Controlling the crunch... matter manipulating...being cut into tiny chunks but is still talking and communicating like nothing happen. Teleprtation... absorbing people into his board...taking people powers away from them. Would you like for me to continue?

biensalsa
*Correction big grin

You still sore for that? Sorry . And get it in your head RED SUN'S DOES NOT HURT KRYPTONIANS, unless the kryptonians are in direct contact with the flames from the sun,


http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/CRAZY%20FEATS/supermanfliesthroughrao.jpg

Oh! wait maybe not.

I DON'T SEE ANYONE IN PAIN

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS2.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS3.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS5.jpg

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
So I guess this means that you can't counter my argument huh? How about silver surfer creating clones of himself with their own personality. Linking everyone on the planet earth to his mind... letting them experience how it feels to fly through space. Controlling the crunch... matter manipulating...being cut into tiny chunks but is still talking and communicating like nothing happen. Teleprtation... absorbing people into his board...taking people powers away from them. Would you like for me to continue?

Why do you intentionally mislead people?

edit: you need to fix your links biensalsa.

biensalsa
Originally posted by carver9
So I guess this means that you can't counter my argument huh? How about silver surfer creating clones of himself with their own personality. Linking everyone on the planet earth to his mind... letting them experience how it feels to fly through space. Controlling the crunch... matter manipulating...being cut into tiny chunks but is still talking and communicating like nothing happen. Teleprtation... absorbing people into his board...taking people powers away from them. Would you like for me to continue?

While he is more versatile and have more powers in quantity, the quality of Superman's powers make up for that disadvantage.

See the feats of Superman and see the counters he has.

This is debatable at best

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
Why do you intentionally mislead people?

edit: you need to fix your links biensalsa.

How am I misleading people when "everything" that I said happened? Please let me know something that I said in my post that wasn't true.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
How am I misleading people when "everything" that I said happened? Please let me know something that I said in my post that wasn't true.

You ignore context and try to make things out to be what thay aren't by using overly vague terms that give no idea of the truth of the matter. You get a wide berth as it is dude, but stuff like that is only going to get you in to trouble when you measure it against the amount of lowballing you do.

biensalsa
Originally posted by -Pr-
Why do you intentionally mislead people?

edit: you need to fix your links biensalsa.

Done

carver9
Originally posted by biensalsa
While he is more versatile and have more powers in quantity, the quality of Superman's powers make up for that disadvantage.

See the feats of Superman and see the counters he has.

This is debatable at best

Naah, I disagree... that's like me saying that gladiator is more powerful than silver surfer since he has towed a planet... survived a solar system destroying blast that hit him directly in the face and he didn't have a scratch...his heat vision stalemated tyrants cosmic vision. He crushed planets under his hands... swam through stars a 100 million miles wide. Been stated at least 3 times that he have unlimited strength and the list goes on.

Even though glads have all of this under his belt he is still far less powerful than surfer.

biensalsa
Originally posted by carver9
Naah, I disagree... that's like me saying that gladiator is more powerful than silver surfer since he has towed a planet... survived a solar system destroying blast that hit him directly in the face and he didn't have a scratch...his heat vision stalemated tyrants cosmic vision. He crushed planets under his hands... swam through stars a 100 million miles wide. Been stated at least 3 times that he have unlimited strength and the list goes on.

Even though glads have all of this under his belt he is still far less powerful than surfer.

Did I said Superman is more powerful than Surfer or Gladiator more powerful than Surfer?

I said

IT IS DEBATABLE, Based on a lot of things you do not know about Superman and based on the NO LIMITS FALLACY that Surfer suffers by a lot of KMC posters.

http://img503.imageshack.us/f/45676322mi0.jpg/

I DO NOT OWN THAT SCAN OR THAT ISSUE, THERE MAY BE SOMETHING THAT I'M NOT AWARE OF, But judging by that panel evidence Surfer has his hands full with Glads AND HE DOES NOT KNOW HIS WEAKNESSES.

Hope KGKG can give issue refference so I can get it

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Naah, I disagree... that's like me saying that gladiator is more powerful than silver surfer since he has towed a planet... survived a solar system destroying blast that hit him directly in the face and he didn't have a scratch...his heat vision stalemated tyrants cosmic vision. He crushed planets under his hands... swam through stars a 100 million miles wide. Been stated at least 3 times that he have unlimited strength and the list goes on.

Even though glads have all of this under his belt he is still far less powerful than surfer.

More powers =/= More powerful.

biensalsa
Originally posted by carver9
Naah, I disagree... that's like me saying that gladiator is more powerful than silver surfer since he has towed a planet... survived a solar system destroying blast that hit him directly in the face and he didn't have a scratch...his heat vision stalemated tyrants cosmic vision. He crushed planets under his hands... swam through stars a 100 million miles wide. Been stated at least 3 times that he have unlimited strength and the list goes on.

Even though glads have all of this under his belt he is still far less powerful than surfer.

I guess by this rule, you will rather have all the powers of the Silver Surfer instead of a single power, what about if that Single power is reality manipulation big grin

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
Since when ALTERNATE TIME LINES OF A UNIVERSE IS = TO A DIFFERENT UNIVERSE? If you mean by alternate timelines as in, Cosmic King did not come from the future of Superman's timeline, but an alternate timeline, then yes, Cosmic King is from an alternate universe.

Had Cosmic King come from Superman's direct future, you'd have an argument. Because he didn't, you don't.

ALternate universe character made Kryptonite that affected Superman. No need to be so butt-hurt about it.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
No, Sir, you are accusing me of something that is not true, trying to rest credibility to my argument.

ON PANEL AND WITH PROOF, I showed you why Kryptonite made by someone who is not from Superman's universe or Kryptonite not from Superman's universe will not harm Superman. Element Lad from Prime universe was the only one capable of creating Kryptonite that Hurts Superboy Prime, Firestorm was not capable of doing it.Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Firestorm HAS MORE KNOWLEDGE OF KRYPTONITE AND IS MORE CAPABLE THAN SILVER SURFER TO DO THIS

I'll ask you again
"Now The Firestorm from "OUR" Universe tried the same trick on SBP and it did NOT WORK. Firestorm is better at matter transmutation than Surfer. So if Firestorm couldn't pull the trick of creating alternative universe Kryptonite, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK Silver Surfer can? "

Kryptonite from DIFFERENT universes have a different wave length radiation, in addition to that, they work on a different vibrational pattern. Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18. Originally posted by biensalsa
I'm looking for that evidence, because It has been said before, but I do not remember in which Issue it was stated.

So in order for Firestorm to make Knite that Hurts Superman from earth 3 He will have to make it the same wave length + match the vibrational pattern universe 3.

I'm looking for this evidence and as soon as I find it, I will post it.Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18. Originally posted by biensalsa
No, the rule is that Silver Surfer will be able to create Kryptonite that harms Kryptonians from Silver Surfer's universe, which is this case it COULD be someone who is Superman's counterpart in Marvel Universe.

Besides and in order to put an end to this myth of "SS creating Kryptonite".

Rules of the forum say "Everybody knows Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite" granted that is a huge disadvantage for Superman, BUT, the CHEMICAL COMPOSITION AND RADIOACTIVE WAVELENGTH OF KNITE IS NOT COMMON KNOWLEDGE Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18. Originally posted by biensalsa
Why then was He able to fly INSIDE RAO?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/CRAZY%20FEATS/supermanfliesthroughrao.jpg

Why then He was capable of power up the ION engines to move Krypton under a red sun?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS4.jpgHe didn't fly inside Rao. He flew through it. And they were screaming. Originally posted by biensalsa
And I find it funny how you accuse of trying to portray Superman as Superboy Prime, when you are trying to do the same but with the HULK

"The more stress he is under, the more energy He RETAINS from the sun"

Does Hulk RETAINS more energy based on his stress level?

WWH ENDING ANYONE?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Hulk/HULKWWH.jpgI don't know why you posted that scan. Because Hulk does retain more energy based on his stress level. The laser completely depowered him. Same as red sun energy has completely depowered Superman in the past. Use some common sense. Posting links without making appropriate deductions =/= cogent argumentation. Originally posted by biensalsa
Crisis of Conscience, Yes Faust Summons "red" rays from Rao, which they look to me pretty much WHITE. In any case MAGICK again.

How I can explain this to you? OK if it is not NATURALLY there and it appears MAGICALLY there, IS MAGIC, Specially if it's done by spell-casters Anything summoned magically is automatically magical? That's pretty retarded. So I magically teleport a kitchen knife from my kitchen. I can now use it to stab Superman because it's been imbued with magical properties? Don't be so stucking fupid. Originally posted by biensalsa
No, you assuming AGAIN and really you need guidance so you can understand what I'm saying. Red Sun energy does affect Superman, HOWEVER IF YOU ACTUALLY READ AND COMPREHENDED THE SCANS, you will realize that "The more stress he is under, the more energy He RETAINS from the sun"
To effectively drain him out, He will need to be out of contact from any sun light or starlight as He has also been powered by starlight and Plant mitosis in the past. So, Good Luck with that Superman has been weakened by red sunlight blasts while in sunlight. It does depend on the intensity. Assuming Surfer cannot muster enough intensity is where you decided to take a leap of idiocy to make your conclusions. But, good luck with that. Originally posted by biensalsa
No, PC Superman saying that He can split a diamond planet in Half is believable, CURRENT Superman at his Current power level in which He lifts singularities is conceivable. Silver Surfer being capable of move is limbs at nanosecond reaction time? ONLY IN HALLUCINATIONS created by the fear eater

"FEAR-EATERS
(KKALLAKKI)

Classification: Extra-terrestrial, demonspawn

Location/Base of Operations: Mobile throughout known universe

Known Members: One unnamed (deceased)

Affiliations: Offspring of the Fear Lord Kkallakku, Cold War (created by a fear-eater)

Enemies: Captain (Steve Rogers), Daredevil, Silver Surfer, Thing, Thor

First Appearance: Marvel Comics Presents#1/4 (September, 1988)

Powers/Abilities: The Fear-Eaters exist entirely off of fear of other beings. They can phase extra-dimensionally, assuming an immaterial form, and merge with a host. Once merged, they can read the minds of their host, determining its greatest fears. The Fear-Eater than can generate hallucinations which cause the host to confront its greatest fear. The Fear-Eater draws strength from this and will continue to cause intense fear until its victim either dies or overcomes its fears. If a Fear-Eater is deprived of fear for too long of a period, it will die of starvation. "And I choose to believe Surfer's words. You choose to believe PC Superman's words that are irrelevant to Superman. Originally posted by biensalsa
No you did not said that EXPLICITLY, However every time I see a post of you, you give the impression and the Idea that in a fight between this two SS will win 10/10 and As far as I remember most of the time you claim this as stomp. Didn't you said:

This gives the impression that According to you Silver Surfer sucks the yellow sun radiation from him INSTANTLY and wins I don't claim this as a stomp. But should Surfer choose to suck the yellow radiation out, I don't see it being much of a problem at all. He can suck the gamma radiation instantly out of Hulk who accesses it from a dimension of infinite gamma radiation. And if Surfer simply blocks it completely (with or without red sunlight), that's it, he's done. Which you agree with, since red sunlight doesn't strip his powers, it just blocks it. Originally posted by biensalsa
You still sore for that? Sorry big grin. And get it in your head RED SUN'S DOES NOT HURT KRYPTONIANS, unless the kryptonians are in direct contact with the flames from the sun, Oh! wait maybe not.

I DON'T SEE ANYONE IN PAIN

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/CRAZY%20FEATS/supermanfliesthroughrao.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS2.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS3.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/KTONIANS5.jpg The three Supermen screaming in the first scan doesn't give me faith you read comics. And natural non-yellow sunlight-powered Kryptonians =/= Superman. Superman has screamed in pain from red sunlight. Many times.

-Pr-
he's also been bathed in it and shown no pain whatsoever. more than once too.

also, again, it seems like you're picking and choosing just a lil. stick out tongue

OneDumbG0
^ I'm not arguing he can never not be hurt by it. I'm arguing against the idea that he never feels pain from it or that it will never work unless he's in a locked room or in a blackhole.

I'm arguing against absolutist nonsense, therefore instances of dispositive evidence rules. It's not my fault he thinks this is an open-shut case. Originally posted by biensalsa
Should you actually OWN OR HAVE READ those comics, You will actually see how wrong You are. Here let me help you again

Sinestro Corps War:

THE GUYS IS A FREAKING WALKING STAR OF COURSE IS GOING TO HURT And red sunlight hurts. Originally posted by biensalsa
Adventures of Superman #645-47:

I DID NOT saw him screaming not even once. And I saw him regaining his powers after being attacked by someone who has WAAAAAAAAAY MORE THAN COMMON KNOWLEDGE on Superman, The guy is being studying Superman for SEVERAL YEARS, He knows Superman better than Superman himself AND He BASED ON HIS VAST KNOWLEDGE ON SUPERMAN HE designed a machine to exactly depower him. I will post scans of Superman screaming in pain tonight from those comics. I'm sorry for you pretending not remembering the comic. Originally posted by biensalsa
IS SURFER A WALKING RED SUN? Plus You have seen PLENTY of examples of Kryptonians under Red Sun Radiation. It does not hurt. Ignorance could be attributed to those depictions or an unknown factor involvedSee above. Originally posted by biensalsa
If you can prove that Galactus Devourer is the first time they meet. I concede that SS can detect weaknesses. And "detecting" TELEPATHS does not cut it. Prove that the first time Surfer met Gladiator, Gladiator told him his own weakness. Your question is utterly inconsequential.

illadelph12
Originally posted by -Pr-
he's also been bathed in it and shown no pain whatsoever. more than once too.

also, again, it seems like you're picking and choosing just a lil. stick out tongue

FMIIW, but I thought red sunlight simply de-powered Supes (and all Kryptonians and Daxamites), not caused him pain, whereas kryptonite both depowered him and was lethal/poisonous to Kryptonians?

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm not arguing he can never not be hurt by it. I'm arguing against the idea that he never feels pain from it or that it will never work unless he's in a locked room or in a blackhole.

I'm arguing against absolutist nonsense, therefore instances of dispositive evidence rules. It's not my fault he thinks this is an open-shut case. And red sunlight hurts. I will post scans of Superman screaming in pain tonight from those comics. I'm sorry for you pretending not remembering the comic. See above. Prove that the first time Surfer met Gladiator, Gladiator told him his own weakness. Your question is utterly inconsequential.

i don't think the scan you're referencing says he was hurt by red sun. they were flying through a star after all, and this is the same superman that survived the explosion of a red sun eater. he does make mention of how hot it is, and red solar radiation doesn't give off heat by itself that we know of.

i'd agree with what you're trying to get at in theory, if i didn't think that you were using a bad example.

Originally posted by illadelph12
FMIIW, but I thought red sunlight simply de-powered Supes (and all Kryptonians and Daxamites), not caused him pain, whereas kryptonite both depowered him and was lethal/poisonous to Kryptonians?

I'd agree with you on that.

Bentley
Either Superman or John solos.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't think the scan you're referencing says he was hurt by red sun. they were flying through a star after all, and this is the same superman that survived the explosion of a red sun eater. he does make mention of how hot it is, and red solar radiation doesn't give off heat by itself that we know of.

i'd agree with what you're trying to get at in theory, if i didn't think that you were using a bad example.biensalsa was trying to use Infinite Crisis as an example to prove his theory that red sun radiation never hurts Superman. I simply pointed out that they were screaming and his experiencing pain makes sense. You can disagree with that, but that's not the example I used. You can simply look to Crisis of Conscience or Adventures of Superman #645-47 for examples where he is specifically screaming in pain.

To wit, the examples that I used.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm not arguing he can never not be hurt by it. I'm arguing against the idea that he never feels pain from it or that it will never work unless he's in a locked room or in a blackhole.

I'm arguing against absolutist nonsense, therefore instances of dispositive evidence rules. It's not my fault he thinks this is an open-shut case. And red sunlight hurts. I will post scans of Superman screaming in pain tonight from those comics. I'm sorry for you pretending not remembering the comic. See above. Prove that the first time Surfer met Gladiator, Gladiator told him his own weakness. Your question is utterly inconsequential. You know the screaming bit doesn't prove that the red sunlight causes pain so much that being in the core of a red sun while his powers are on the wane hurts like hell.

It's not the red sunlight: its the heat that hurts. It's like a magic bullet. Magic itself isn't what's hurting Superman in that case, the bullet is.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
biensalsa was trying to use Infinite Crisis as an example to prove his theory that red sun radiation never hurts Superman. I simply pointed out that they were screaming and his experiencing pain makes sense. You can disagree with that, but that's not the example I used. You can simply look to Crisis of Conscience or Adventures of Superman #645-47 for examples where he is specifically screaming in pain.

To wit, the examples that I used.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

uhuh

Naija boy
Originally posted by biensalsa


http://img503.imageshack.us/f/45676322mi0.jpg/

I DO NOT OWN THAT SCAN OR THAT ISSUE, THERE MAY BE SOMETHING THAT I'M NOT AWARE OF, But judging by that panel evidence Surfer has his hands full with Glads AND HE DOES NOT KNOW HIS WEAKNESSES.


Not 616 surfer.......

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
biensalsa was trying to use Infinite Crisis as an example to prove his theory that red sun radiation never hurts Superman. I simply pointed out that they were screaming and his experiencing pain makes sense. You can disagree with that, but that's not the example I used. You can simply look to Crisis of Conscience or Adventures of Superman #645-47 for examples where he is specifically screaming in pain.

To wit, the examples that I used.

#645 he's not just bathing him in red sun. he's using energy blasts. plus, they're still engaged in physical combat for parts of the fight while superman is weakened.
granted #647 is more ambiguous, but not enough to make me believe that red sun by itself is harmful.

the amazo one and the up, up and away examples don't do it for me either, tbh.

if anything they're examples that red sun needs to be used as an actual weapon rather than a simple light source to actually hurt him.

what crisis of conscience part are you talking about?

psycho gundam
Originally posted by biensalsa
Crisis of Conscience, Yes Faust Summons "red" rays from Rao, which they look to me pretty much WHITE. In any case MAGICK again.

How I can explain this to you? OK if it is not NATURALLY there and it appears MAGICALLY there, IS MAGIC, Specially if it's done by spell-casters laughing out loud lol the only magical element was that they were summoned there

-Pr-
eh, he's still hitting him with flames of a sort.

if he's hitting him with just red solar radiation (like lamps and such) it shouldn't cause him pain.

it seems to be when it's weaponised that it causes him trouble.

at least imo.



i can honestly see why people would think red sun can cause him pain, and that's fine. its a contentious enough subject that even if i think someone's wrong, it's not enough of a thing where i feel they're trolling to say otherwise. it's a fair argument either way...

753
Originally posted by biensalsa
Come on, you think they are going to publish something as vanal as that?

This scan

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/...ourer518no4.jpg

Is a MISSLEADING feat

First of all it ommits CRITICAL information

Silver Surfer has interacted with the Shiar empire, the Skrull empire and the Kree empire WAY BEFORE that feat. Any of those empires will be capable of knowing Gladiator's weakness.
Isn't Genis part of the Kree?

That is why MOST LIKELLY HE says in that scan "I KNOW", not "I sense"

If you can prove that Silver Surfer NEVER interacted WITH ANY OF THOSE empires PRIOR to this "first encounter" I concede that He "sensed a wakness"

He meet GLADIATOR WAAAAAAY before that. Is a missleading feat.

Silver Surfer detecting weaknesses is VERY, VERY QUESTIONABLE and most likelly not true No it's not, he's done it several trimes and cosmic awareness is a standard and commonly used aspect of his powerset.

753
Originally posted by biensalsa
No, Sir, you are accusing me of something that is not true, trying to rest credibility to my argument.

ON PANEL AND WITH PROOF, I showed you why Kryptonite made by someone who is not from Superman's universe or Kryptonite not from Superman's universe will not harm Superman. Element Lad from Prime universe was the only one capable of creating Kryptonite that Hurts Superboy Prime, Firestorm was not capable of doing it.

Firestorm HAS MORE KNOWLEDGE OF KRYPTONITE AND IS MORE CAPABLE THAN SILVER SURFER TO DO THIS

I'll ask you again
"Now The Firestorm from "OUR" Universe tried the same trick on SBP and it did NOT WORK. Firestorm is better at matter transmutation than Surfer. So if Firestorm couldn't pull the trick of creating alternative universe Kryptonite, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK Silver Surfer can? "

Kryptonite from DIFFERENT universes have a different wave length radiation, in addition to that, they work on a different vibrational pattern.
The transmuter doesn't have to be from the same universe as the kryptonian as you claimed, he simply needs to be able to create the exact same kind of kryptonite as the one from the kryptonian's birth universe (even then ODG showed exceptions).
Firestorm, who has no cosmic awareness, couldn't do it because he'd need to know what the particular type of kryptonite is like and he didn't. If he knew the chemical composition, it would have worked.




As a matter of fact he does. His gamma radiation intake from the extradimensional source increases with stress, he becomes stronger adn emmits more gamma radiation as a side effect. Those satellite beams were specifically designed to suck him dry. That's exactly what would happen to SM under stress fighting the SS.

Not really, just drain more than SM can suck in. Besides, SS can actually bend all the sunlight away from SM and the whole battlefield. Doctor Polaris depowered SM instantly and SS is far above him.


So he hallucinated about the knowledge of his own speed? Doubtfull. the point is that he can form a sentence in his mind and act upon it in the timeframe of a nanosecond. He has many other superspeed reaction and coordination feats as well.

753
Originally posted by biensalsa


Kindergarten mistake

Since when ALTERNATE TIME LINES OF A UNIVERSE IS = TO A DIFFERENT UNIVERSE?



laughing out loud A character from the same universe on a different time-line did it


Parallel time lines, same UNIVERSE


Since always actually. Alternate timelines are different universes, this is consistant in both DC and Marvel.

To finish it off. There is no actual reason to deduce SS learned of Gladiator's weakness through any ohter way than his CA as nothing in the comic hints at it. And the SS is not only superior to SM in versatility, but all arround more powerfull. The combat efficiency of SM's comparativelly limited powerset is what allows him to hang with beings much more powerfull than he is in battle, true. But still, SS has created an enourmous black hole through energy output alone. His raw power is at least on par with SM's and most people in all the forums agree that it's a good deal above.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
#645 he's not just bathing him in red sun. he's using energy blasts. plus, they're still engaged in physical combat for parts of the fight while superman is weakened.
granted #647 is more ambiguous, but not enough to make me believe that red sun by itself is harmful.

the amazo one and the up, up and away examples don't do it for me either, tbh.

if anything they're examples that red sun needs to be used as an actual weapon rather than a simple light source to actually hurt him.

what crisis of conscience part are you talking about? Originally posted by -Pr-
eh, he's still hitting him with flames of a sort.

if he's hitting him with just red solar radiation (like lamps and such) it shouldn't cause him pain.

it seems to be when it's weaponised that it causes him trouble.

at least imo.



i can honestly see why people would think red sun can cause him pain, and that's fine. its a contentious enough subject that even if i think someone's wrong, it's not enough of a thing where i feel they're trolling to say otherwise. it's a fair argument either way... Ultimately besides the point. I doubt Surfer is going to be laying off punches and blasts while gently showering him in a lamp of pure gentle red sunlight set at 85 degrees Fahrenheit. And I imagine you'd agree. And if you trace the original argument back to its source, the argument was whether "red sun radiation" affects Superman or not: Originally posted by biensalsa
and Red Sun radiation? Unless they are in a black hole it will not work. The term "hurt" got put in there and spawned this entire debacle of a side debate over whether pure gentle red sunlight "hurts" Superman. Bottom-line is, it "affects" him. Arguably, in enough quantities it "pains" him. Definitely, when weaponized, it "hurts" him. And incontrovertibly, you don't need a blackhole to have it affect him.

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
More powers =/= More powerful.

I agree but the only thing that is debatable that any of the heralds could probably have over surfer is strength and that's even debatable... everything else, the surfer trumps them. Power output, durability, speed, etc.

So I don't understand why people like supes and glads are comparable to someone like surfer who could basically mimic everything that they do with a lot more additional abilities.

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you mean by alternate timelines as in, Cosmic King did not come from the future of Superman's timeline, but an alternate timeline, then yes, Cosmic King is from an alternate universe.

Had Cosmic King come from Superman's direct future, you'd have an argument. Because he didn't, you don't.

ALternate universe character made Kryptonite that affected Superman. No need to be so butt-hurt about it.

Anomalies of the same universe, traveling back in time to alter their past so they can ensure their future. DOES NOT MEANS THEY ARE FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE, but only from another time-line in the same universe

If they were from another universe, then They will still existed AFTER the end of the story.

Each Universe has different time lines

Had this timelines being different universes there should have been a Batman and a Superman per each "universe" besides them.

The only time He encountered a Superman was his "POSSIBLE" future self.

Different Timelines are not equal to different universes.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline2.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline21.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline3.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.

Great argument pal clapping

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He didn't fly inside Rao. He flew through it. And they were screaming.

And more than capable to withstand RED SUN'S CORE TEMPERATURES while being depowered and surrounded by Knite.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't know why you posted that scan. Because Hulk does retain more energy based on his stress level. The laser completely depowered him. Same as red sun energy has completely depowered Superman in the past. Use some common sense. Posting links without making appropriate deductions =/= cogent argumentation.

Hulk GENERATES more Gamma radiation, there is nowhere indication that He retains it more based on his stress level, If any there is indication of the contrary base on his figth vs Thor in Hellas realm in which He is fighting Thor and He is STRUGLING to keep his gamma level up in order to keep his Hulk transformation

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Anything summoned magically is automatically magical? That's pretty retarded. So I magically teleport a kitchen knife from my kitchen. I can now use it to stab Superman because it's been imbued with magical properties? Don't be so stucking fupid.

I have seen Zatanna pulling the same tricks, from rabits commming out of her hat. The instance of Summonig Rao clearly shows not a RED RADIATION, BUT A WHITE ONE. The other one done by the same spellcaster shows actual FLAMES. And knowing Faust is a better spell caster than you I don't see why not, So don't be so whatever you called me and think for a second that IS CONCEIVABLE. bangin

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman has been weakened by red sunlight blasts while in sunlight. It does depend on the intensity. Assuming Surfer cannot muster enough intensity is where you decided to take a leap of idiocy to make your conclusions. But, good luck with that.

Low Balling

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And I choose to believe Surfer's words. You choose to believe PC Superman's words that are irrelevant to Superman.

It does not change the fact that his nanosecond feat is USELESS

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't claim this as a stomp. But should Surfer choose to suck the yellow radiation out, I don't see it being much of a problem at all. He can suck the gamma radiation instantly out of Hulk who accesses it from a dimension of infinite gamma radiation. And if Surfer simply blocks it completely (with or without red sunlight), that's it, he's done. Which you agree with, since red sunlight doesn't strip his powers, it just blocks it.

How is he going to suck the yellow radiation out? WHAT PART OF "HE RETAINS YELLOW SOLAR ENERGY BASED ON HIS STRESS" YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND? Even Under red sun, He has enough energy to move with help a freaking planet 16 times the size of earth

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The three Supermen screaming in the first scan doesn't give me faith you read comics. And natural non-yellow sunlight-powered Kryptonians =/= Superman. Superman has screamed in pain from red sunlight. Many times.

I corrected my post, but you decided to cling onto the one with the missplace error.

Red sunlight DOES NOT HURT, can you get that in your head?
Like someone said If it is weaponized, yes then it could hurt, but more because of the WEAPON part more than anything.

Superman has also NOT Screamed from red sunlight MANY TIMES.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And red sunlight hurts.

doh Is a FREAKING OPEN SOLAR FLAME ON HIS FACE!
Even if you are not vulnerable to it, IS GOING TO HURT, THE GUY IS A FREAKING WALKING RED STAR!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I will post scans of Superman screaming in pain tonight from those comics. I'm sorry for you pretending not remembering the comic.

Weaponized laughing

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Prove that the first time Surfer met Gladiator, Gladiator told him his own weakness. Your question is utterly inconsequential.

Burdern of proof? The feat of SS "detecting" weaknesses is at best QUESTIONABLE.

Other person should have come up with SS detecting some one elses weaknesses. And like I told you "DETECTING" Telepaths do not count

biensalsa
Originally posted by Naija boy
Not 616 surfer.......

Thanks do you have issue #?

biensalsa
Originally posted by 753
No it's not, he's done it several trimes and cosmic awareness is a standard and commonly used aspect of his powerset.

I was expecting you to show here at any give moment.

Please provide evidence of SS detecting weaknesses on characters other than the questionable feat of Gladiator in canon comics.

biensalsa
Originally posted by 753
The transmuter doesn't have to be from the same universe as the kryptonian as you claimed, he simply needs to be able to create the exact same kind of kryptonite as the one from the kryptonian's birth universe (even then ODG showed exceptions).
Firestorm, who has no cosmic awareness, couldn't do it because he'd need to know what the particular type of kryptonite is like and he didn't. If he knew the chemical composition, it would have worked.

ODG "exception" is SAME universe, different time line.

Like I told before to KGKG I remember an instance of needing to match also the vibrational frequency of the kryptonian's universe. But I could be wrong, still I'm looking for this evidence


Originally posted by 753
As a matter of fact he does. His gamma radiation intake from the extradimensional source increases with stress, he becomes stronger adn emmits more gamma radiation as a side effect. Those satellite beams were specifically designed to suck him dry. That's exactly what would happen to SM under stress fighting the SS.

Hulk vs Thor in Hellas realm does not backup this claim.

And what evidence do you have that this will be exactly what would happen to SM?

Originally posted by 753
Not really, just drain more than SM can suck in. Besides, SS can actually bend all the sunlight away from SM and the whole battlefield. Doctor Polaris depowered SM instantly and SS is far above him.

He can suck half a galaxy buster. Polaris "depower" him for 1 second and He regain powers right away. Does SS has magnetical powers above Polaris? I do not recall seing this. And the stress factor was low when he fought Polaris


Originally posted by 753
So he hallucinated about the knowledge of his own speed? Doubtfull. the point is that he can form a sentence in his mind and act upon it in the timeframe of a nanosecond. He has many other superspeed reaction and coordination feats as well.

Provide OTHER evidence of explicit nanosecond reaction time or above

753
Originally posted by biensalsa
I was expecting you to show here at any give moment.

Please provide evidence of SS detecting weaknesses on characters other than the questionable feat of Gladiator in canon comics. gamma drained the hulk in a second

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
Anomalies of the same universe, traveling back in time to alter their past so they can ensure their future. DOES NOT MEANS THEY ARE FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE, but only from another time-line in the same universeReread Superman/Batman #18. Cosmic King did not come from the timeline of Superman. So it's not two different points on the same timeline. You should have recognized it before... but this isn't a foreign concept. We already have different Legions from alternate universes. And it's explained that Cosmic King didn't come from their timeline. But I don't blame you. Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.Originally posted by biensalsa
If they were from another universe, then They will still existed AFTER the end of the story.

Each Universe has different time lines

Had this timelines being different universes there should have been a Batman and a Superman per each "universe" besides them.

The only time He encountered a Superman was his "POSSIBLE" future self.Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18. Originally posted by biensalsa
Different Timelines are not equal to different universes.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline2.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline21.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline3.jpgToo bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18. Originally posted by biensalsa
Great argument pal Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18. Originally posted by biensalsa
And more than capable to withstand RED SUN'S CORE TEMPERATURES while being depowered and surrounded by Knite.And screaming while they were flying through Rao at incredible speeds. Originally posted by biensalsa
Hulk GENERATES more Gamma radiation, there is nowhere indication that He retains it more based on his stress level, If any there is indication of the contrary base on his figth vs Thor in Hellas realm in which He is fighting Thor and He is STRUGLING to keep his gamma level up in order to keep his Hulk transformationThe angrier he gets, the stronger he gets. I mean, that's better than Superman, who you argue, the angrier he gets, the more his energy levels stay the same. Surfer sucked it out and has blocked it instantly. Originally posted by biensalsa
I have seen Zatanna pulling the same tricks, from rabits commming out of her hat. The instance of Summonig Rao clearly shows not a RED RADIATION, BUT A WHITE ONE. The other one done by the same spellcaster shows actual FLAMES. And knowing Faust is a better spell caster than you I don't see why not, So don't be so whatever you called me and think for a second that IS CONCEIVABLE. You don't see why not. I get it. I present to you the mirror of your argument, "I don't see why they couldn't be non-magical either." Particularly when Dr Faustus doesn't play up any magical angle on them. Good job with the false dichotomy laced with hypocrisy there. Not easy to blend the two. You've got talent.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
Low Balling

It does not change the fact that his nanosecond feat is USELESS

How is he going to suck the yellow radiation out? WHAT PART OF "HE RETAINS YELLOW SOLAR ENERGY BASED ON HIS STRESS" YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND? Even Under red sun, He has enough energy to move with help a freaking planet 16 times the size of earth Yes, I know you are low balling.

Useless to a hypocrite like you, I know.

Because Superman has had his yellow sun radiation sucked out... while stressed. You act like his stress completely prevents him from having it sucked out. It doesn't. It hasn't. On-panel. Read Superman comics. Originally posted by biensalsa
I corrected my post, but you decided to cling onto the one with the missplace error.

Red sunlight DOES NOT HURT, can you get that in your head? Like someone said If it is weaponized, yes then it could hurt, but more because of the WEAPON part more than anything. Superman has also NOT Screamed from red sunlight MANY TIMES. Is a FREAKING OPEN SOLAR FLAME ON HIS FACE! Even if you are not vulnerable to it, IS GOING TO HURT, THE GUY IS A FREAKING WALKING RED STAR! Weaponized I don't know what particular error you're referencing. They are too numerous.

Red sunlight has hurt Superman. On-panel. I understand that you want to project some extra angle onto the red sun radiation EVERY SINGLE TIME to make it seem like Superman's never been hurt by it, e.g., magic, weaponization, etc.

But the fact remains. It has hurt Superman before. And Surfer can use red solar flavored Power Cosmic blasts if he wants. That's his "weaponization." I'll just make use of the same assumptions you make and defeat your own tangential arguments.

But ultimately, this entire tangential argument is pointless. We all know that the use of red sun radiation has not only depowered Superman, it's hurt Superman and affected Superman. All without the presence of a blackhole. I understand you're likely to try to move the goalposts here and escape from that initial blunderous statement. But that's what I've been arguing with. Next time, don't try to propagate ridiculous myths with such asinine absolutes. I know that's what you believe in your heart of hearts. Don't pretend like you can prove it though.Originally posted by biensalsa
Burdern of proof? The feat of SS "detecting" weaknesses is at best QUESTIONABLE.

Other person should have come up with SS detecting some one elses weaknesses. And like I told you "DETECTING" Telepaths do not count Yes. You have the burden to prove that it's more likely Surfer randomly overheard someone telling him Gladiator is weak to that specific radiation rather than his Cosmic Awareness just picking it up. Good luck.

753
Originally posted by biensalsa

Hulk vs Thor in Hellas realm does not backup this claim.

And what evidence do you have that this will be exactly what would happen to SM? WWH, his current series and most of the rest of his career do however.

so what?

IIRC polaris relented the attack, he could have maitained it or killed him while depowered.

Yes, he does, his control over pretty much all forms of energy is far above DP's.

you are demanding another feat in which the term nanosecond is used? lol

Feats that clock the time of action are rare for all characters, but he has several others that consistant with that level of superspeed such as:

rescuing shala-ball from a sphere that explodes on contact; calculating a teleporter's trajectory midteleportation and reacting to it; making a grab for the infinity gauntlet from a light year away in less than second; chasing an electronic signal arround in a maze.

biensalsa
Originally posted by 753
Since always actually. Alternate timelines are different universes, this is consistant in both DC and Marvel.

Not true. The timeline in which Superman became evil NEVER was accomplished, like that timeliene there are SEVERAL time line that NEVER become reality

Originally posted by 753
To finish it off. There is no actual reason to deduce SS learned of Gladiator's weakness through any ohter way than his CA as nothing in the comic hints at it.

He says "I KNOW YOUR WEAKNESS" , Not "I SENSED"

That + the fact that He meet Gladiator WAY before Devourer + the fact that the Skrull KNOW Glads Weaknesses + His frienship with a Kree citizen which are at odds with the SHIAR'S + not another showing of him detecting weaknesses on a character that I'm aware of.

Originally posted by 753
And the SS is not only superior to SM in versatility, but all arround more powerfull. The combat efficiency of SM's comparativelly limited powerset is what allows him to hang with beings much more powerfull than he is in battle, true. But still, SS has created an enourmous black hole through energy output alone. His raw power is at least on par with SM's and most people in all the forums agree that it's a good deal above.

He is not more powerful, his tiny other powers, do not compensate the fact that SM is far stronger than SS, Speed? Not much advantage as many believe, Energy output? Matched in several feats Energy Absorption? SM outshined SS. Punching and destroying Moons, palnetoids and meteorites? SM outshines SS. Combat Skill? SM above SS. Punching SEVERAL times in a second? SM outshines SS.
Transmutation SS wins, Global EMP? SAME and so on. SS minor powers are not a huge advantage and IF SS is more powerful than SM is not for much when you consider the advantages SM has on some departments
Yes he is more versatile, but SM IS NOT BYRNE SM ANYMORE

And MOST PEOPLE still think SM IS AT HIS POWER LEVEL OF 1992

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by biensalsa
Energy Absorption? SM outshined SS. laughing out loud laughing shocklaugh laughcry

biensalsa
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
laughing out loud laughing shocklaugh laughcry

half a galaxy buster.

SS a sun at best

psycho gundam
your head is so far up your own ass it's amazing

ouroboros of fail

Johnny Sorrow
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
laughing out loud laughing shocklaugh laughcry

There, there. He has the same effect on everybody. 131

753
Originally posted by biensalsa
Not true. The timeline in which Superman became evil NEVER was accomplished, like that timeliene there are SEVERAL time line that NEVER become reality
This has nothing to do with anything.

this isnt impossible, but it's not really implied by the comic and occam's razor should be enough to dismiss such a convoluted explanation
Tiny other powers like timetravel, dimension dumping, matter transmutation, shrinking to other dimensions, astral projection, healing and manipulating life on a planetary scale, intangibilty, converting energy to matter and vice-versa. Riiiiiiight.

Energy output, he's reignited a dying star and created a black hole. What are SM's matches exactly? What energy absortion feat of SM has outshined SS's best ones so clearly?

The main advantage SM has is superspeed h2h proficiency and strengh at baseline and like I said: this lets him punch outside his weightclass, but overall he is less powerfull.

OneDumbG0
^ thumb up thumb up Originally posted by biensalsa
half a galaxy buster.

SS a sun at best You mean he absorbed enough energy to disarm the Mageddon warhead? And ironically, a sun at best. A small, tiny, anti-sun.

Unilord. Also: Originally posted by OneDumbG0
laughing out loud laughing shocklaugh laughcry Originally posted by psycho gundam
your head is so far up your own ass it's amazing

ouroboros of fail Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
There, there. He has the same effect on everybody. 131

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ultimately besides the point. I doubt Surfer is going to be laying off punches and blasts while gently showering him in a lamp of pure gentle red sunlight set at 85 degrees Fahrenheit. And I imagine you'd agree. And if you trace the original argument back to its source, the argument was whether "red sun radiation" affects Superman or not: The term "hurt" got put in there and spawned this entire debacle of a side debate over whether pure gentle red sunlight "hurts" Superman. Bottom-line is, it "affects" him. Arguably, in enough quantities it "pains" him. Definitely, when weaponized, it "hurts" him. And incontrovertibly, you don't need a blackhole to have it affect him.

i agree with that part.

whether surfer would/could make it, and how effective it is against him, is what i'd have issue with, but that's me.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree but the only thing that is debatable that any of the heralds could probably have over surfer is strength and that's even debatable... everything else, the surfer trumps them. Power output, durability, speed, etc.

So I don't understand why people like supes and glads are comparable to someone like surfer who could basically mimic everything that they do with a lot more additional abilities.

no, again.

strength, speed, durability are all debatable. and just because he can mimic something doesn't make him better at it.

look at martian manhunter.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
i agree with that part. Which part? That it strains credulity to assume that Surfer would be gently showering him with a desk lamp's worth of red sunlight radiation and nothing else? Or the utter asininity of biensalsa's assertion that red sunlight only works when Superman is in a blackhole? Originally posted by -Pr-
whether surfer would/could make it, and how effective it is against him, is what i'd have issue with, but that's me. This particular argument has never been about whether Surfer would make it (although he has threatened/resorted to such cheap and efficient energy manipulation tactics before, e.g., Gladiator, Hulk, Vision, Wonderman, etc.). Surfer can make it. Even biensalsa doesn't disagree with that. Questioning its effectiveness is always your prerogative. Ultimately, the notion that red sunlight radiation wouldn't hurt unless Superman were also in a blackhole is utterly asinine.

But frankly, I don't see any reason for questioning its effectiveness, i.e., whether it would really matter in a fight when it's brought out. Ya, it would matter. Red sun radiation blasts permitted a human in a cybernetically enhanced suit + teleportation unit to fight Superman. Surfer >>>>>>>>>> that on every level. Ya, it would matter. And not in a good way for Superman.

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Which part? That it strains credulity to assume that Surfer would be gently showering him with a desk lamp's worth of red sunlight radiation and nothing else? Or the utter asininity of biensalsa's assertion that red sunlight only works when Superman is in a blackhole? This particular argument has never been about whether Surfer would make it (although he has threatened/resorted to such cheap and efficient energy manipulation tactics before, e.g., Gladiator, Hulk, Vision, Wonderman, etc.). Surfer can make it. Even biensalsa doesn't disagree with that. Questioning its effectiveness is always your prerogative. Ultimately, the notion that red sunlight radiation wouldn't hurt unless Superman were also in a blackhole is utterly asinine.

But frankly, I don't see any reason for questioning its effectiveness, i.e., whether it would really matter in a fight when it's brought out. Ya, it would matter. Red sun radiation blasts permitted a human in a cybernetically enhanced suit + teleportation unit to fight Superman. Surfer >>>>>>>>>> that on every level. Ya, it would matter. Not in a good way for Superman.

what you replied to me with.

when i talk about could and would, i'm talking about the likelihood of it, not the capability.

ruin was also an expert on superman, who knew more about him and how his powers work than almost anybody. just because it was a dude in a suit shouldn't void that. look at batman.

BobbyD
Would telepathic/mental assaults from J'onn affect Surfer?

OneDumbG0
^ He's not immune to it AFAIK. Yes, they would. And you're lucky in that you're not likely to get many arguments from rabid SS fanboys that hold out certain SS telepathy resistance feats and SS physiology facts to manufacture witless pretense and idiotically pretend that telepathy would never work unless Surfer was in a blackhole. /end shameless jab Originally posted by -Pr-
what you replied to me with.

when i talk about could and would, i'm talking about the likelihood of it, not the capability.thumb up

I understood that too. Originally posted by -Pr-
ruin was also an expert on superman, who knew more about him and how his powers work than almost anybody. just because it was a dude in a suit shouldn't void that. look at batman. And he used red sun radiation. That was his sole ace card. Red sun radiation can be, and has been used as the ace card by vastly inferior opponents, all things considered equal. Batman is even more evidence of that with a simple Kryptonite ring.

When you consider the Surfer, you have to appreciate that with his power levels, you're far more likely to have scenes akin to Amazo two-shotting Superman with an E-M cocktail blast laced with ample red sun radiation, than to have scenes where some schmuck Earth prison-warden projects a mere lamp's worth of gentle red sun radiation to keep him locked down. The latter exists to be sure, but we already agree on how utterly remote, and therefore inconsequential, it is when we consider Surfer engaging Superman in a fight.

In short, the entire "effectiveness" angle is a red herring to me. You arm a more powerful character with red sun radiation, that's a bigger problem for Superman. It's already a game changer when human characters use it. Arm a Herald with it, and its more likely than not to be just as much, if not more of, a game changer.

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
thumb up

I understood that too. And he used red sun radiation. That was his sole ace card. Red sun radiation can be, and has been used as the ace card by vastly inferior opponents, all things considered equal. Batman is even more evidence of that with a simple Kryptonite ring.

When you consider the Surfer, you have to appreciate that with his power levels, you're far more likely to have scenes akin to Amazo two-shotting Superman with an E-M cocktail blast laced with ample red sun radiation, than to have scenes where some schmuck Earth prison-warden projects a mere lamp's worth of red sun radiation to keep him locked down. The latter exists to be sure, but we already agree on how utterly remote, and therefore inconsequential, it is when we consider Surfer engaging Superman in a fight.

In short, the entire "effectiveness" angle is a red herring to me. You arm a more powerful character with red sun radiation, that's a bigger problem for Superman. It's already a game changer when human characters use it. Arm a Herald with it, and is more likely than not to be just as much, if not more of, a game changer.

which ties in to my likelihood point.

i'm not going to argue that surfer using red sun radiation gives him an edge. that would be pointless.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -Pr-
which ties in to my likelihood point.An argument for another day, perhaps? thumb up Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm not going to argue that surfer using red sun radiation gives him an edge. that would be pointless. Unfortunately,... that sh1tty pointless argument will likely continue with or without your participation for at least several more pages. thumb down

-Pr-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
An argument for another day, perhaps? thumb up Unfortunately,... that sh1tty pointless argument will likely continue with or without your participation for at least several more pages. thumb down

My big issue is the whole cosmic awareness thing.

And no, we're not getting in to it. Ever.

Don Corleone
Cosmic awareness always helped out weaker characters like :

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3619/captainmarvel3012.th.jpg

psycho gundam
Originally posted by -Pr-
My big issue is the whole cosmic awareness thing.

And no, we're not getting in to it. Ever. scared? shifty

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