Grey Warden Commander vs. Link (TP)

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NemeBro
The Grey Warden PC versus Link, and in a delightfully Quan-tum fashion, this is Twilight Princess Link only.

Four fights.

1. Warrior Warden
2. Rogue Warden
3. Mage Warden
4. COMPOSITE Warden.

WHO SHALL WIN!?

FinalAnswer
Where's the Arcane Warrior Warden?

quanchi112
Warden in all scenarios.

NemeBro
Why? smile

RE: Blaxican
Gray Warden commander easily if I'm playing as her. 313

The Scenario
The only ones I see as being threats are the Mage and Composite Wardens. Link one shots the Warrior and Rogue with superior strength, and likely either dodges or resists most of the Mage's stuff. Composite I'm less sure of.

quanchi112
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why? smile Their abilities are too much for Link to overcome. Mages can petrify him and freeze him at a safe distance and then rain down punishment. Warriors can knock him down and can paralyze him and use other enchanted weapons that would dominate him.

Rogues are very good at avoiding attacks, can be in stealth mode and land a critical hit, can be duelists as well, and can stun him at all. He gets beaten up badly in all scenarios. Link needs to stay in hyrule it's a very scary place in dragon age.

NemeBro
Originally posted by quanchi112
Their abilities are too much for Link to overcome. Mages can petrify him and freeze him at a safe distance and then rain down punishment. Warriors can knock him down and can paralyze him and use other enchanted weapons that would dominate him.

Rogues are very good at avoiding attacks, can be in stealth mode and land a critical hit, can be duelists as well, and can stun him at all. He gets beaten up badly in all scenarios. Link needs to stay in hyrule it's a very scary place in dragon age. Only none of those attacks would so much as harm him. smile Warriors are physically weaker than Link though, and the Master Sword is more powerful than every weapon in Dragon Age. smile

Link by feats is faster. smile Stealth mode? Gameplay is awesome huh? Link could physically remove the head of the Warden.

Notice how the Darkspawn in that game were, at best, a country-wide threat because of their vast armies. Zant alone pulled most of Hyrule into another dimension.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by quanchi112
Warriors can knock him down

I lol'd.

SpadeKing
Critical hits are considered in a vs. match now? We have a lot of re-debating to do in RPG threads...

quanchi112
Originally posted by NemeBro
Only none of those attacks would so much as harm him. smile Warriors are physically weaker than Link though, and the Master Sword is more powerful than every weapon in Dragon Age. smile

Link by feats is faster. smile Stealth mode? Gameplay is awesome huh? Link could physically remove the head of the Warden.

Notice how the Darkspawn in that game were, at best, a country-wide threat because of their vast armies. Zant alone pulled most of Hyrule into another dimension. Master sword didn't show itself in this game to outclass any opponent he needed skill to beat them all. He didn't just wreck through their swords or did you miss that when you played the game ? I mean this is downright absurd and contradicts how the master sword is portrayed in it's own game and downplays the skills taught to Link.

Link won't see them they are in stealth mode. You can ignore their abilities if you want and pretend that Link is someone who failed to even kill the giant ogre he hit continuous times in top I won't.

And ? Zant's realm was how big again ? His army was a few shadow beats and projections of himself and a few random scrubs. I mean the circle of magi by itself templars included would ravage all of the land of twilight in like a day.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I lol'd. Well it's true brah so laugh it up all you want. smile

quanchi112
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Critical hits are considered in a vs. match now? We have a lot of re-debating to do in RPG threads... Why wouldn't they be ?

SpadeKing
Originally posted by quanchi112
Why wouldn't they be ?

So how are you going to add that into the match? Just assume that every 1 or 2 hits there will be a critical no expression

Phanteros
Originally posted by quanchi112
Why wouldn't they be ? Because its unquantifiable gameplay.

quanchi112
Originally posted by SpadeKing
So how are you going to add that into the match? Just assume that every 1 or 2 hits there will be a critical no expression The first hit from a rogue unseen is critical it doesn't mean he wins in a hit or two but it definitely starts out in the rogue's favor.

Originally posted by Phanteros
Because its unquantifiable gameplay. It's a fact in the game. If you want to ignore facts in the game then don't debate these characters.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by quanchi112
It's a fact in the game. If you want to ignore facts in the game then don't debate these characters.

OH MY GOD THE IRONY! eek!

I sent Scenario an epic one yesterday, but I think this tops it.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
It's a fact in the game. If you want to ignore facts in the game then don't debate these characters.

It's a fact in the game the Link's Mortal Draw kills everything in one hit, and "there is no defense for this" so yeah, good luck.

quanchi112
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
OH MY GOD THE IRONY! eek!

I sent Scenario an epic one yesterday, but I think this tops it. I don't ignore facts in a game you twist facts. I just solved this dilemma for ya.

Originally posted by The Scenario
It's a fact in the game the Link's Mortal Draw kills everything in one hit, and "there is no defense for this" so yeah, good luck. He also leaves himself open to be killed himself but with all of these characters they have defenses and heavier armor on with better abilities.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
He also leaves himself open to be killed himself but with all of these characters they have defenses and heavier armor on with better abilities.

And Link has Magic Armor.

Phanteros
Since Quan likes to use gameplay mechanics. Link puts on magic armor and becomes invincible. He uses mortal draw and insta kills every warden. Their defenses doesn't matter much because Mortal draw can kill everyone except Ganon.

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't ignore facts in a game you twist facts. I just solved this dilemma for ya.

He also leaves himself open to be killed himself but with all of these characters they have defenses and heavier armor on with better abilities.

Defenses don't matter. Mortal draw kills anything no matter what. It's gameplay mechanics. Just like with Final Fantasy games we wouldn't say that Squall or Cloud actually have to wait for the other character to attack before they can. That's why gameplay mechanics have absolutely no place in these debates.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by quanchi112
Well it's true brah so laugh it up all you want. smile

Strength feats or GTFO

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Scenario
And Link has Magic Armor. Ok and the warden have enchantments along with everything else for armor and for their weapons which really hurt Link's chances here.

Originally posted by Phanteros
Since Quan likes to use gameplay mechanics. Link puts on magic armor and becomes invincible. He uses mortal draw and insta kills every warden. Their defenses doesn't matter much because Mortal draw can kill everyone except Ganon. Too many abilities to counter from the warden. Link cannot become invincible. Not try but sadly he loses every matchup.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TacDavey
Defenses don't matter. Mortal draw kills anything no matter what. It's gameplay mechanics. Just like with Final Fantasy games we wouldn't say that Squall or Cloud actually have to wait for the other character to attack before they can. That's why gameplay mechanics have absolutely no place in these debates. yes, they do. The game honors them and that's a different story. The warden has too many abilities with enchantable weapons here for Link to have a chance.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Strength feats or GTFO Link doesn't overpower any opponent he beats them due to skill. Did you ever plat twilight princess ? What does strength have to do with a mage anyways ? Does the mage lose because his powers might not have to do with strength ? I mean I could be really cheap and throw an arcane warrior at Link but I feel bad for him then.

The Scenario
No, I don't think you understand this, Quanchi. If you want to use game mechanics, that lets Link become invincible with the Magic Armor and the Mortal Draw one-hit kills. That's the mechanic.

1. Warrior- Magic Armor blocks his attacks, Link kills him with Mortal Draw.
2. Rogue- Magic Armor blocks his attacks, Link kills him with Mortal Draw.
3. Mage- Magic Armor blocks his attacks, Link kills him with Mortal Draw.
4. Composite- Magic Armor blocks his attacks, Link kills him with Mortal Draw.

That game combo basically makes Link unbeatable since he can't be hurt with Magic Armor, and the Mortal Draw kills everything in one hit.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by quanchi112
Link cannot become invincible.

Link's magic armor says otherwise ermm

Phanteros
Originally posted by quanchi112

Too many abilities to counter from the warden. Link cannot become invincible. Not try but sadly he loses every matchup. Magic armor says otherwise. I can say the same for the Warden's magic abilities being auto target.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Scenario
No, I don't think you understand this, Quanchi. If you want to use game mechanics, that lets Link become invincible with the Magic Armor and the Mortal Draw one-hit kills. That's the mechanic.

1. Warrior- Magic Armor blocks his attacks, Link kills him with Mortal Draw.
2. Rogue- Magic Armor blocks his attacks, Link kills him with Mortal Draw.
3. Mage- Magic Armor blocks his attacks, Link kills him with Mortal Draw.
4. Composite- Magic Armor blocks his attacks, Link kills him with Mortal Draw.

That game combo basically makes Link unbeatable since he can't be hurt with Magic Armor, and the Mortal Draw kills everything in one hit. Link's not invincible. That's ridiculous nor is it feasible.

1.magic armor may be able to block hyrule attacks but these warriors attacks with their abilities and the enchantments they bring to the table.

2.Wrong, same logic applies and rogues have cunning to find weap spots in any armor. Laughs.

3.You can't block his attacks nor can Link block every attack in his own game and mages never miss either.


4.This is a massive stomp against Link as the abilities are combined.

Link isn't unbeatable with his magic armor either in his own game.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Link's magic armor says otherwise ermm False.Originally posted by Phanteros
Magic armor says otherwise. I can say the same for the Warden's magic abilities being auto target. You are misrepresenting his magical armor like most other feats you have no idea what you are talking about.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by quanchi112
Link's not invincible. That's ridiculous nor is it feasible.

1.magic armor may be able to block hyrule attacks but these warriors attacks with their abilities and the enchantments they bring to the table.

2.Wrong, same logic applies and rogues have cunning to find weap spots in any armor. Laughs.

3.You can't block his attacks nor can Link block every attack in his own game and mages never miss either.


4.This is a massive stomp against Link as the abilities are combined.

Link isn't unbeatable with his magic armor either in his own game.

False. You are misrepresenting his magical armor like most other feats you have no idea what you are talking about.

Ok now this one is hilarious laughing

The armor is only effective against anything from Hyrule?

With this logic Link is unaffected by Dragonage magic as well then.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by quanchi112
Link doesn't overpower any opponent he beats them due to skill. Did you ever plat twilight princess ? What does strength have to do with a mage anyways ? Does the mage lose because his powers might not have to do with strength ? I mean I could be really cheap and throw an arcane warrior at Link but I feel bad for him then.

So, uh, no strength feats then?

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
Link's not invincible. That's ridiculous nor is it feasible.


The Magic Armor explicitly states that it makes Link invincible. It drains rupees when he's hit instead of hearts.



And these abilities and ENCHANTMENTS are? Name one that could get past the Magic Armor.



Magic Armor has no weak points. It transfers damage from his hearts to his rupees, meaning no attack can harm him.



Magic Armor transfers all damage to rupees. So yes, he does block every single attack the mage can throw at him, since of them will be able to hurt him.



Yet you have not named a single ability that could beat the magic armor. Therefor, even the composite fails to hurt Link and falls to a single Mortal Draw.



Yes he is. The entire point of the Magic Armor is to make Link invincible in his own game.



By the sound of it, you don't actually understand how the Magic Armor works. Did you even get it when you played?

Phanteros
Originally posted by quanchi112


False. You are misrepresenting his magical armor like most other feats you have no idea what you are talking about. Ironic coming from you. I doubt you played TP because that's what the Armor basically does is make him invincible.

quanchi112
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Ok now this one is hilarious laughing

The armor is only effective against anything from Hyrule?

With this logic Link is unaffected by Dragonage magic as well then. So you're saying any force cannot harm Link in this armor ? Superman from comics cannot nor can Darkseid right because his armor blocks everything no matter the power level. To describe anything as making you invincible from a video game such as zelda is one of the most absurd claims I have ever heard. Only a fool would even entertain the word invincible but believe it makes him invincible it only hurts you not me.

NemeBro
erm

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by quanchi112
So you're saying any force cannot harm Link in this armor ? Superman from comics cannot nor can Darkseid right because his armor blocks everything no matter the power level. To describe anything as making you invincible from a video game such as zelda is one of the most absurd claims I have ever heard. Only a fool would even entertain the word invincible but believe it makes him invincible it only hurts you not me.

Superman and Darkseid are vastly stronger than both universes. Darkseid alone would make both of them his ***** but no one from DA has shown the strength or magical ability to bypass some magical enchantment.

quanchi112
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
So, uh, no strength feats then? So by this logic the stronger guy always wins, amirite ?Originally posted by Phanteros
Ironic coming from you. I doubt you played TP because that's what the Armor basically does is make him invincible. You don't need to acquire the magic armor in tp. Think. Originally posted by The Scenario
The Magic Armor explicitly states that it makes Link invincible. It drains rupees when he's hit instead of hearts.



And these abilities and ENCHANTMENTS are? Name one that could get past the Magic Armor.



Magic Armor has no weak points. It transfers damage from his hearts to his rupees, meaning no attack can harm him.



Magic Armor transfers all damage to rupees. So yes, he does block every single attack the mage can throw at him, since of them will be able to hurt him.



Yet you have not named a single ability that could beat the magic armor. Therefor, even the composite fails to hurt Link and falls to a single Mortal Draw.



Yes he is. The entire point of the Magic Armor is to make Link invincible in his own game.



By the sound of it, you don't actually understand how the Magic Armor works. Did you even get it when you played? So no force from anything can hurt him, right ? That's what you claim, right ?

Frost powers, fireball, petrify, lightning, etc.

You think missiles just bounce off him I get it. I just can't believe you'd ever have the audacity to claim invincible.

I've named numerous abilties such as petrify then shattering him, marking him with death and taking advantage of his weak points as a rogue, using enchantments to freeze or paralyze him while just dealing attacks.

So dorf can't hurt him in this armor ?

Nope.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Superman and Darkseid are vastly stronger than both universes. Darkseid alone would make both of them his ***** but no one from DA has shown the strength or magical ability to bypass some magical enchantment. Then it isn't invincible which is the point. don't use words which don't apply. This shouldn't be heard to grasp. You obviously didn't play dragon age.

quanchi112
Originally posted by NemeBro
erm I just easily trumped the hilarious claim of invincible. .

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by quanchi112
Then it isn't invincible which is the point. don't use words which don't apply. This shouldn't be heard to grasp. You obviously didn't play dragon age.

What?

http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq2/Wei-Phoenix/Shutup.jpg

SpadeKing
Originally posted by quanchi112
So you're saying any force cannot harm Link in this armor ? Superman from comics cannot nor can Darkseid right because his armor blocks everything no matter the power level.

Please prove me wrong and go find a video/valid statement that proves this armor doesn't allow Link to be damaged while in effect. Nope, but the armor's abilities definitely wouldn't last very long against them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
To describe anything as making you invincible from a video game such as zelda is one of the most absurd claims I have ever heard. Only a fool would even entertain the word invincible but believe it makes him invincible it only hurts you not me.

So since it is LoZ you can't be invincible?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You don't need to acquire the magic armor in tp. Think.

So dorf can't hurt him in this armor ?

So you don't even know how it works, so what grounds do you even have to claim it wouldn't make him invincible?

Actually he can't.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I just easily trumped the hilarious claim of invincible. .

With even more hilariously superior logic amirite?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
What?

http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq2/Wei-Phoenix/Shutup.jpg Then you failed to properly assess it.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Please prove me wrong and go find a video/valid statement that proves this armor doesn't allow Link to be damaged while in effect. Nope, but the armor's abilities definitely wouldn't last very long against them.



So since it is LoZ you can't be invincible?



So you don't even know how it works, so what grounds do you even have to claim it wouldn't make him invincible?

Actually he can't.



With even more hilariously superior logic amirite? Where can I go from here if someone believes Link is unbeatable no matter who he faces in any genre if he has equipped his magical armor on.

So it's a temporary thing now and dependent on what rupees ? In dragon age you can also heal yourself over and over again.

Against every kind of threat in fiction based on zelda threats-nope.

It's common sense he isn't even invincible only temporarily in the gameplay depending on factors I am unaware of but common sense tells me without even acquiring it. I is smartz.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
So by this logic the stronger guy always wins, amirite ? You don't need to acquire the magic armor in tp. Think. So no force from anything can hurt him, right ? That's what you claim, right ?


So any force that hits him would be transfered to Link's rupees, thus preventing Link from taking the damage. So no force can hurt him according to gameplay mechanics, yes. Remember, you are the one that wanted to use gameplay.



All of which deal damage, and would thus not harm Link since they are attacking his rupees and not him.



I never said they bounce off. However, the Master sword can reflect spells back at the caster. What I said is that they would not harm Link.



You never named any of those before except for the rogue thing. None of those would really work, what with Link being unable to take damage, and the Master Sword and Triforce of Courage preventing other effects.



No, not even Ganondorf can hurt Link in the Magic Armor. That's just how it works.



I didn't think so.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by quanchi112
Then you failed to properly assess it.


Not really, all you do here is assume things about people and end up being wrong like saying it's obvious that I never played it, I actually played it recently. Then you try to argue in game mechanics when everyone who has been here longer than you have told you that in game mechanics is not a valid form of evidence here, if that was the case then all anyone would have to do to beat Mario is to slowly walk into him. You claim that mages don't miss but we've already talked about how they aren't hitting fast targets nor are the targets attempting to dodge. By your logic play the game, attack an enemy with a mage and see if they are trying to dodge. All the do is stand there and try to hit you.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by quanchi112
Where can I go from here if someone believes Link is unbeatable no matter who he faces in any genre if he has equipped his magical armor on.

So it's a temporary thing now and dependent on what rupees ? In dragon age you can also heal yourself over and over again.

Against every kind of threat in fiction based on zelda threats-nope.

It's common sense he isn't even invincible only temporarily in the gameplay depending on factors I am unaware of but common sense tells me without even acquiring it. I is smartz.

Easy go prove them wrong or admit defeat. Right now you're admitting defeat in the form of denial.

Do you even actually read and retain what people say? It's like you read a word and forget it when you read the next. Scenario already told you about the armor last page.

I'm positive the triforce is the weakest thing ever also ermm

So are you admitting that he is invincible for the duration then? Which is still enough time for mortal draw. Your common sense told you that magic armor which makes the wearer invulnerable has weak spots and the wearer is still capable of being damage, I don't see how that = smart

ScreamPaste
Link wins with his fists.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Not really, all you do here is assume things about people and end up being wrong like saying it's obvious that I never played it, I actually played it recently. Then you try to argue in game mechanics when everyone who has been here longer than you have told you that in game mechanics is not a valid form of evidence here, if that was the case then all anyone would have to do to beat Mario is to slowly walk into him. You claim that mages don't miss but we've already talked about how they aren't hitting fast targets nor are the targets attempting to dodge. By your logic play the game, attack an enemy with a mage and see if they are trying to dodge. All the do is stand there and try to hit you. I am arguing based on their abilities and rogues and what not do try to dodge they just cannot they are unavoidable.

If they are fast enough like the flash but like most comic book characters they are just too fast and powerful unlike videogame characters who lack 1/1000 of his speed. Kain isn't fast enough to fly past armies of humans either and was affected by Moebius a human with human reaction time. I always back myself up with in game instances. I don't just make things up and speculate.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Easy go prove them wrong or admit defeat. Right now you're admitting defeat in the form of denial.

Do you even actually read and retain what people say? It's like you read a word and forget it when you read the next. Scenario already told you about the armor last page.

I'm positive the triforce is the weakest thing ever also ermm

So are you admitting that he is invincible for the duration then? Which is still enough time for mortal draw. Your common sense told you that magic armor which makes the wearer invulnerable has weak spots and the wearer is still capable of being damage, I don't see how that = smart Link isn't invincible nor does anyone really believe it. It also gameplay wise depends on available rupees so it's a mater of time and temporary either way which he still loses even if the warden can't harm him sooner or later he runs out of rupees and gets defeated.

No, I am not and secondly he gets paralyzed and his speed is reduced due to enchantments. He loses every single time.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Scenario
So any force that hits him would be transfered to Link's rupees, thus preventing Link from taking the damage. So no force can hurt him according to gameplay mechanics, yes. Remember, you are the one that wanted to use gameplay.



All of which deal damage, and would thus not harm Link since they are attacking his rupees and not him.



I never said they bounce off. However, the Master sword can reflect spells back at the caster. What I said is that they would not harm Link.



You never named any of those before except for the rogue thing. None of those would really work, what with Link being unable to take damage, and the Master Sword and Triforce of Courage preventing other effects.



No, not even Ganondorf can hurt Link in the Magic Armor. That's just how it works.



I didn't think so. Until he runs out of rupees. It's just a matter of time.

His rupees go down nontheless anyways and at an alarming rate too considering the damage done and the enchantmens slowing his movement speed and paralyzing him.

So you think now he isn't invincible. You rescind your claim.

Master sword can't reflect these spells which never miss.

Triforce of courage doesn't prevent him from being damaged in his own game. Quit ignoring how he is portrayed in his own game and making things up because you're unhappy he loses.

So dorf being all powerful means nothing as he can't even hurt Link in his magic armor. Wow. Poor dorf.

I disagreed with you.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by quanchi112
Link isn't invincible nor does anyone really believe it. It also gameplay wise depends on available rupees so it's a mater of time and temporary either way which he still loses even if the warden can't harm him sooner or later he runs out of rupees and gets defeated.

No, I am not and secondly he gets paralyzed and his speed is reduced due to enchantments. He loses every single time.

I'll believe proof over your claims, Scenario posted proof of the armor making you invincible.

If nothing else can affect Link in the armor, which includes Zant's attacks with his power up from Ganondorf, Ganondorf himself, and Zelda's attack while possessed by Ganon. What could possibly make you think that people who are so much weaker magically could damage him? Actually post up some proof this time when you do make the claim that the wardens are more powerful and can actually affect Link in the armor.

ScreamPaste
So, what I'm seeing; Everyone here knows that Link could tear them apart with his bare hands. Magic armour is leet, sure, but why bother? It's just an extra unnecessary step. Really, to hell with all that, good old fist-fuelled violence.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by quanchi112
So by this logic the stronger guy always wins, amirite ?

No.

I was asking because you said the Warrior could knock Link down. I demand the strength feats. If the Warrior has no strength feats, he cannot knock Link down.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by quanchi112
I am arguing based on their abilities and rogues and what not do try to dodge they just cannot they are unavoidable.


I'm playing DragonAge right now, just started with a Dwarf warrior tank last week. Show me an animation of any of the characters in the game dodging an attack in combat? I've never seen any of them dodge an attack, they just stand there and get hit. It just says "miss" at the top of their heads.

NemeBro
Rogues sometimes dodge, but it is not an elaborate one, they just kind of bob and weave.

RE: Blaxican
I've seen a rogue lean back a little bit or lean to the left. Never outright move out of the way or anything. I don't think they're capable.

NemeBro
That's true, they only bob and weave, never do they that I can recall even shift their footing.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
Until he runs out of rupees. It's just a matter of time.


The Grey Warden does not have time before Link has Mortal Draw'd his face, instantly killing him.



Link still has Bomb Arrows. Can you prove the Grey Warden can take a bomb? And I'm still sure Link can resist those things or even dodge them.



When did I say that? Link is unable to be damaged. Thus, invincible.



Prove they can't be reflected. Link has reflected spells before.



I never said the Triforce of Courage prevents Link from being damaged. That's what the Magic Armor is for. The Triforce of courage just protects Link from transformation, corruption, and mental or dark effects, like the Fused Shadows or Mirror Shards.



I said Link was invincible, didn't I?



I asked if you got the Magic Armor when you played Twilight Princess, and you...disagreed?

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
yes, they do. The game honors them and that's a different story. The warden has too many abilities with enchantable weapons here for Link to have a chance.

That didn't make any sense. The game honors them? What are you talking about? Look, by your logic, Squall and Cloud and anyone from a turn based RPG have to wait for their opponents to attack before they can, am I right? That's what you are saying right?

There are such things as game mechanics, which are the parts of a game that make it a game, and not a movie. Such as someone having health, rather than dieing from the first sword to go through their gut. Critical hits are game mechanics, they have no place in these debates.

quanchi112
Originally posted by SpadeKing
I'll believe proof over your claims, Scenario posted proof of the armor making you invincible.

If nothing else can affect Link in the armor, which includes Zant's attacks with his power up from Ganondorf, Ganondorf himself, and Zelda's attack while possessed by Ganon. What could possibly make you think that people who are so much weaker magically could damage him? Actually post up some proof this time when you do make the claim that the wardens are more powerful and can actually affect Link in the armor. I already debuffed that claim. Making someone temporarily invincible in their own game isn't the same thing as invincible outside of it. Common sense should be screaming in your ear hole by now.

They paralyze him with their enchanted weapons and take away his rupees making him vulnerable. I mean even in his own game it's just a temporary type thing. It's very simple.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So, what I'm seeing; Everyone here knows that Link could tear them apart with his bare hands. Magic armour is leet, sure, but why bother? It's just an extra unnecessary step. Really, to hell with all that, good old fist-fuelled violence. Despite Link not tearing anyone apart in his own game. Hmmm.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
No.

I was asking because you said the Warrior could knock Link down. I demand the strength feats. If the Warrior has no strength feats, he cannot knock Link down. It's an ability in the game and we see the giant snow beast do so easily. Poor Link needed his boots.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That didn't make any sense. The game honors them? What are you talking about? Look, by your logic, Squall and Cloud and anyone from a turn based RPG have to wait for their opponents to attack before they can, am I right? That's what you are saying right?

There are such things as game mechanics, which are the parts of a game that make it a game, and not a movie. Such as someone having health, rather than dieing from the first sword to go through their gut. Critical hits are game mechanics, they have no place in these debates. No, I never said anything this ridiculous I just seek to include their in game abilities which you seem deadset on ignoring.

Rogues abilities have to do with critical hits but of course you want to ignore it because you're biased.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Scenario
The Grey Warden does not have time before Link has Mortal Draw'd his face, instantly killing him.



Link still has Bomb Arrows. Can you prove the Grey Warden can take a bomb? And I'm still sure Link can resist those things or even dodge them.



When did I say that? Link is unable to be damaged. Thus, invincible.



Prove they can't be reflected. Link has reflected spells before.



I never said the Triforce of Courage prevents Link from being damaged. That's what the Magic Armor is for. The Triforce of courage just protects Link from transformation, corruption, and mental or dark effects, like the Fused Shadows or Mirror Shards.



I said Link was invincible, didn't I?



I asked if you got the Magic Armor when you played Twilight Princess, and you...disagreed? Yes, he does. Most can also attack him before he gets close enough to even do so which also leaves him able to be killed with one hit. That's what you keep forgetting is he is just as susceptible.

When did Link reflect a spell in tp ?

The trifroce just gives him courage. It's what dragon age characters have on their own without some artifact helping them have balls to fight the enemies they fight. In a sense this takes away from Link further because he needs something to help him have the necessary courage.


Link also has Midna aid him just like you said countless times because on his own he's unable to deal with most of the stuff which comes his way outside artifacts and weapons.


So if he's invincible the sun itself couldn't kill him right ?

I said nope meaning I did not get it. How can you always be so lost ?

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, I never said anything this ridiculous I just seek to include their in game abilities which you seem deadset on ignoring.

Rogues abilities have to do with critical hits but of course you want to ignore it because you're biased.

No, I'm not biased at all. For example, Links Mortal Draw wouldn't actually kill anything in one hit. It's a game mechanic. Just like critical hits and damage in general is a game mechanic. And I believe I just showed why game mechanics can't be used. You are simply clinging to them.

But hell, if you want to include game mechanics, lets go ahead and take a walk down that road. You can't pick and choose what game mechanics you want, you have to include them all if you want them there. So let's see... The Gray Warden can't dodge OR block any attacks except for the occasional lucky time when he actually does it. He has to attack in a fixed, rhythmic fashion with the exception of when he performs a skill, which he can't do all the time, since he has a set stamina and can't use any more skills once it runs out.

Link, however, can block whenever he wants and can perform back flips and side rolls to dodge attacks easily. He can also perform a wide range of skills, like helm splitter and mortal draw, etc etc. And he can do those infinitely. He also has an arsenal of weapons including bombs and arrows, and magic armor which makes him completely invincible. Oh, and Mortal Draw one hit kills anything.

Now tell me, with game mechanics turned on, who seems to be the winner of this fight?

SpadeKing
Originally posted by quanchi112
I already debuffed that claim. Making someone temporarily invincible in their own game isn't the same thing as invincible outside of it. Common sense should be screaming in your ear hole by now.

They paralyze him with their enchanted weapons and take away his rupees making him vulnerable. I mean even in his own game it's just a temporary type thing. It's very simple.

Rogues abilities have to do with critical hits but of course you want to ignore it because you're biased.

No you didn't, you're just being biased against LoZ which I don't like nearly as much as the LLC on here but this is ridiculous. So Link's boots only make him heavier in his verse, his Zora armor allows him to breathe underwater only in LoZ, and might as well say the hook shot only hooks onto things in LoZ. This is like saying outside of the DC verse the Green Lantern's ring doesn't work or Wonder Woman's gauntlets not being indestructible outside of DC. It is stated that Magic armor is invulnerable to damage and unless you actually bring proof (which you never do anyway) it will remain the same.

You have yet to prove how any of those spells would even affect Link in his Magic armor which you have also yet to prove that it doesn't make the wearer invincible and even it is temporary it is well enough time for mortal draw(if you want to keep arguing gameplay mechanics).

Unless the ability you speak of is always a 100% chance of critical hit, it is 100% gameplay mechanic. This makes about as much sense as saying someone in FF will win cause they always have a 21% of a critical hit or they are equipped with an item that increases the chances of critical hit and still yet you can go for so many battles without ever seeing a critical hit.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Now tell me, with game mechanics turned on, who seems to be the winner of this fight?

The same guy who is winning with or without the gameplay mechanics?

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, he does. Most can also attack him before he gets close enough to even do so which also leaves him able to be killed with one hit. That's what you keep forgetting is he is just as susceptible.


You forget that Link has ranged attacks. Bomb Arrow blow the Warden to peices, or Link uses the clawshot to pull him closer and remove his face.



4ihrIJgKHVw



You misunderstan the Triforce. It does not give him courage, he gets it because he is courageous. What the Triiforce of Courage does is this:
BDx9VHGzOa0

It repelled the Shadow Beast, turned Link into a wolf rather than a spirit, and it seems to grant him extra strength.



How much does Midna actually do? All she does is act as transportation and not much else. Link is the one doing all the fighting.



According to game mechanics, no, it could not. At least until the rupees run out.



I asked if you got the armor.
You said "nope."
I said I didn't think you had.
You said you disagreed with me.

That makes no sense. Though this is now off topic.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, I'm not biased at all. For example, Links Mortal Draw wouldn't actually kill anything in one hit. It's a game mechanic. Just like critical hits and damage in general is a game mechanic. And I believe I just showed why game mechanics can't be used. You are simply clinging to them.

But hell, if you want to include game mechanics, lets go ahead and take a walk down that road. You can't pick and choose what game mechanics you want, you have to include them all if you want them there. So let's see... The Gray Warden can't dodge OR block any attacks except for the occasional lucky time when he actually does it. He has to attack in a fixed, rhythmic fashion with the exception of when he performs a skill, which he can't do all the time, since he has a set stamina and can't use any more skills once it runs out.

Link, however, can block whenever he wants and can perform back flips and side rolls to dodge attacks easily. He can also perform a wide range of skills, like helm splitter and mortal draw, etc etc. And he can do those infinitely. He also has an arsenal of weapons including bombs and arrows, and magic armor which makes him completely invincible. Oh, and Mortal Draw one hit kills anything.

Now tell me, with game mechanics turned on, who seems to be the winner of this fight? A critical hit is just a critical hit it doesn't one shot him or two shot him it's just a critical hit.

Link can't block these attacks that's the thing and he has shoddy armor on. They also have paralysis and reduce movement speed on as enchantments making him a slow sitting duck.

Yeah, domination.

I already stated spells would affect him just not damage him in his magical armor. He could be frozen as his rupees when down with a variety of spells or attacks. When his rupees run out it's a wrap.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Scenario
You forget that Link has ranged attacks. Bomb Arrow blow the Warden to peices, or Link uses the clawshot to pull him closer and remove his face.



4ihrIJgKHVw



You misunderstan the Triforce. It does not give him courage, he gets it because he is courageous. What the Triiforce of Courage does is this:
BDx9VHGzOa0

It repelled the Shadow Beast, turned Link into a wolf rather than a spirit, and it seems to grant him extra strength.



How much does Midna actually do? All she does is act as transportation and not much else. Link is the one doing all the fighting.



According to game mechanics, no, it could not. At least until the rupees run out.



I asked if you got the armor.
You said "nope."
I said I didn't think you had.
You said you disagreed with me.

That makes no sense. Though this is now off topic. No, the arrow wouldn't blow him to pieces. Not even close with the abilities these characters have along with their healing abilities and or armor coupled with skill level.

That wasn't a spell it was an energy blast. There's a difference. It just hurt him. You really go extreme lengths despite Link's losing effort.

Ok and ? It didn't seem to grant him extra strength by any means nor was this explained. More speculation without any real proof.

Midna helps him countless times and actually helps him defeat dorf as a beast. Without her Link was nothing in this story.

That's because in the game they never hurt a sun at Link obviously no one would be silly enough to claim Link can survive the sun because a few arrows bounce off of him. His rupees run out anyways and he dies.

No, I made sense you misunderstood.

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
A critical hit is just a critical hit it doesn't one shot him or two shot him it's just a critical hit.

Link can't block these attacks that's the thing and he has shoddy armor on. They also have paralysis and reduce movement speed on as enchantments making him a slow sitting duck.

Yeah, domination.

I already stated spells would affect him just not damage him in his magical armor. He could be frozen as his rupees when down with a variety of spells or attacks. When his rupees run out it's a wrap.

You're missing the point. Critical hits are just like Mortal Draw in the fact that they are both game mechanics.

He has a shield! Which he can use to defend whenever he wants, unlike the gray warden, who can only block based off of his luck state, or whatever they use to determine when he blocks.

Uh, yeah. Domination. For Link.

1.) The stop effect only works for a short time.

2.) It isn't guaranteed to work AT ALL, since it only has a CHANCE to stop him.

Sorry, but stunning him by either stopping him or using a skill will not hold him long enough to break through his magic armor and all his health. And once the stop or stun runs out (if it even works in the first place) Link Mortal Draws him and kills him instantly.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, the arrow wouldn't blow him to pieces. Not even close with the abilities these characters have along with their healing abilities and or armor coupled with skill level.


Prove it.



An energy blast made by magic. Otherwise known as a spell.



He has more strength than a normal human. The only reasonable explanation would be if the Triforce granted it.



'K, so Midna helps for 1/4th of a boss fight. For some reason this means Link is helpless without her. No.



He kills everyone before his rupees run out, obviously.



Quanchi, it's okay if you made a mistake. There's no need to defend yourself.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by quanchi112
It's an ability in the game and we see the giant snow beast do so easily

Means nothing.

SpadeKing
I feel left out cry

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by SpadeKing
I feel left out cry

It's okay. Have a drink.

cheers

quanchi112
Originally posted by TacDavey
You're missing the point. Critical hits are just like Mortal Draw in the fact that they are both game mechanics.

He has a shield! Which he can use to defend whenever he wants, unlike the gray warden, who can only block based off of his luck state, or whatever they use to determine when he blocks.

Uh, yeah. Domination. For Link.

1.) The stop effect only works for a short time.

2.) It isn't guaranteed to work AT ALL, since it only has a CHANCE to stop him.

Sorry, but stunning him by either stopping him or using a skill will not hold him long enough to break through his magic armor and all his health. And once the stop or stun runs out (if it even works in the first place) Link Mortal Draws him and kills him instantly. So does the grey warden who can knock him down with his shield or stun him at will.

Link hasn't faced off against someone with as many abilities and options as this grey warden.

1. Short time is all they need.

2.During the course of the battle more often than not one or both abilities will come into play once and it's lights out.

Mortal draw also leaves him open so if he uses this he dies before landing the hit.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Prove it.



An energy blast made by magic. Otherwise known as a spell.



He has more strength than a normal human. The only reasonable explanation would be if the Triforce granted it.



'K, so Midna helps for 1/4th of a boss fight. For some reason this means Link is helpless without her. No.



He kills everyone before his rupees run out, obviously.



Quanchi, it's okay if you made a mistake. There's no need to defend yourself. You're asking me to prove a negative. When has the bom arrow blown an enemy boss to bits ?

No, it isn't a spell. It's an energy attack. It's also very returnable unlike the warden's spells which cannot be blocked.

Speculation.

She helps him the entire game against shadow beats, changing back, etc.

Not this warden maybe runts in tp.

I am right you are wrong.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Means nothing. Point proven.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by quanchi112
I am right you are wrong.

Scenario has proven his points. You haven't. If you can justify why you're right, then do it. Now.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Scenario has proven his points. You haven't. If you can justify why you're right, then do it. Now. I already have. Link also has never ever resisted an enemy spell or ability. he is confusing not becoming evil with an artifact as to resisting the Mother's ability to turn him berserk.

TheAuraAngel
Show me the berserk ability so I can see why it would effect Link and the state it would put him in.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Show me the berserk ability so I can see why it would effect Link and the state it would put him in. I don't post videos. I am not sure that's what it is even called.

SpadeKing
If it is anything like a beserk ability in the FF verses that would backfire.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't post videos. I am not sure that's what it is even called.

Then at the least, tell me what the move does.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
You're asking me to prove a negative. When has the bom arrow blown an enemy boss to bits ?

No, I'm asking you to prove durability. Bomb arrows have blown giant boulders to peices and a human wouldn't do any better.



It's a spell that makes an energy ball. Any magic ability is called a spell, no matter what it does. Prove the spells are unblockable, then.



But with evidence.



Yeah, most things that don't involve fighting.



Why not? Give a reason. Link is stronger, able to dodge, and has Magic Armor and powerful ranged attacks.



There's really no need for that.
Point proven.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Then at the least, tell me what the move does. Makes a party member swing wildly and if you switch into him you cannot control him.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No, I'm asking you to prove durability. Bomb arrows have blown giant boulders to peices and a human wouldn't do any better.



It's a spell that makes an energy ball. Any magic ability is called a spell, no matter what it does. Prove the spells are unblockable, then.



But with evidence.



Yeah, most things that don't involve fighting.



Why not? Give a reason. Link is stronger, able to dodge, and has Magic Armor and powerful ranged attacks.



There's really no need for that.
Point proven. So why doesn't it destroy bosses in one blow then ?

They state in the game as it's loading spells are unblockable. It's an energy attack he isn't casting a spell nor is it the same thing as the mage spells in this game.

Nah just speculation.

She aids him with fighting as well. He'd have died without for aid in the game anyways.

Their abilities and I don't see Link as stronger either. Strength doesn't equal victory either.

No harm in bringing it up either.

TheAuraAngel
And how is Beserk inflicted on her opponents? Does she just cast it, or does she have to hit them?

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
So why doesn't it destroy bosses in one blow then ?

Gameplay mechanics. Can kill Armoghoma though.



Those spell have never faced Link. What makes them different so Link can't reflect them? If it's a projectile, Link can send it back.



He threw Dangoro and Blizzeta across a room. Link is strong.



Prove it. What fighting?



As I've said before, I don't care what you see Link as. Just prove your claim. Link is strong enough to kill the Warden in one hit unless you can come up with some durability feats.



No, you're just being annoying arrogant.

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
So does the grey warden who can knock him down with his shield or stun him at will.

Link hasn't faced off against someone with as many abilities and options as this grey warden.

1. Short time is all they need.

2.During the course of the battle more often than not one or both abilities will come into play once and it's lights out.

Mortal draw also leaves him open so if he uses this he dies before landing the hit.

Not at will. He can knock him over, which downs Link for all of 5 seconds. The stun will wear of in about the same, never mind the fact that the Gray Warden can't have both skills at the same time since on is for sword and shield and the other is a rouge talent that can't use swords and shields. And you completely ignored the point about game mechanics, which is exactly what stunning and shield bash are.

Really? So the Gray Warden wins because he has a larger list of abilities? That's some spectacular logic there. Let's apply it to other things. Let's say I have a little blue creature that has 2000 abilities, except they all instantly kill the creature and do no damage to the enemy. By your line of reasoning, the little blue dude wins, cause he has more abilities.

1. Wrong. He would need to break through his magic armor and all of Links hearts, which are what, 20 or so?

2. Again, no, I'm sorry. Even with BOTH coming into play, there isn't a guarantee they will work and they only stun someone for a few seconds Not NEAR enough time to whittle down Link's magic armor and health.

Link can take all the hits he wants on his magic armor while dealing the Mortal Draw. Let's not confuse ourselves here. The Gray Warden doesn't have any instant kill moves. It will take a NUMBER of hits before he can drop Link. Link only needs ONE and the battle is over.

This fight is done. If you want to include game mechanics there is no contest. Link Mortal Draws him and it's over. End of story.

Then again, if you want to ditch game mechanics, like your suppose to in a debate like this, we can go on to really discuss who would win in a fight.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And how is Beserk inflicted on her opponents? Does she just cast it, or does she have to hit them? There's so much going on it's hard to tell. It's unblockable that's for sure.

TheAuraAngel
Wait...Mother isn't in this thread. Okay never mind then, Wardens now. What can they do to Link?

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Scenario
Gameplay mechanics. Can kill Armoghoma though.



Those spell have never faced Link. What makes them different so Link can't reflect them? If it's a projectile, Link can send it back.



He threw Dangoro and Blizzeta across a room. Link is strong.



Prove it. What fighting?



As I've said before, I don't care what you see Link as. Just prove your claim. Link is strong enough to kill the Warden in one hit unless you can come up with some durability feats.



No, you're just being annoying arrogant. Spider, right ? You defeat the spider like any boss with successful attacks.

Link can't send back all projectiles fired his way. He sends back one that doesn't mean he can send them all back and dragon age states they are unblockable which is a fact whereas you cannot prove Link can send back every projective fired his way anyways.

Due to the boots. Who is Blizzetta? Describe him I cannot remember their names.

When she is on his back in wolf form aiding him various times. Link can't beat dorf's animal form without her aid.

The warden is also strong enough to kill Link in one attack. Show me Link laughing off sword attacks or any attacks because they aren't strong enough to hurt him.

It's annoyingly arrogant anyways.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TacDavey
Not at will. He can knock him over, which downs Link for all of 5 seconds. The stun will wear of in about the same, never mind the fact that the Gray Warden can't have both skills at the same time since on is for sword and shield and the other is a rouge talent that can't use swords and shields. And you completely ignored the point about game mechanics, which is exactly what stunning and shield bash are.

Really? So the Gray Warden wins because he has a larger list of abilities? That's some spectacular logic there. Let's apply it to other things. Let's say I have a little blue creature that has 2000 abilities, except they all instantly kill the creature and do no damage to the enemy. By your line of reasoning, the little blue dude wins, cause he has more abilities.

1. Wrong. He would need to break through his magic armor and all of Links hearts, which are what, 20 or so?

2. Again, no, I'm sorry. Even with BOTH coming into play, there isn't a guarantee they will work and they only stun someone for a few seconds Not NEAR enough time to whittle down Link's magic armor and health.

Link can take all the hits he wants on his magic armor while dealing the Mortal Draw. Let's not confuse ourselves here. The Gray Warden doesn't have any instant kill moves. It will take a NUMBER of hits before he can drop Link. Link only needs ONE and the battle is over.

This fight is done. If you want to include game mechanics there is no contest. Link Mortal Draws him and it's over. End of story.

Then again, if you want to ditch game mechanics, like your suppose to in a debate like this, we can go on to really discuss who would win in a fight. These abilities apply for each different warden. 5 seconds can be all that's needed to kill Link anyways.

They win due to the effectiveness, armor, and a larger list of abilites along with comparable strength in 2 of the wardens here. They don't win based off of having more abilities alone. Their abilities are also more effective imo.

1.Yes, and it wouldn't take a long time to do so imo along with the fact the mage warden can suck the magic or render it useless from Link.

2.I disagree. With the strength and abilities shown here it's more than enough to kill someone who can be killed or harmed easily by piranha plants.

No, Link cannot as his armor doesn't last forever even in his own game.

In mortal draw Link dies when hit as well.

Either way Link loses. Pick your poison.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
Spider, right ? You defeat the spider like any boss with successful attacks.


And one arrow, bomb or not, kills the final form. But you're dodging the point. The Grey Warden is a humanoid, not a giant monster, so until you prove super durability, a bomb that shatters rocks will kill them.



Dragon Age states they are unblockable. Twilight Princess states that the Master Sword reflects projectiles. A reflect isn't a block. Also, no limits fallacy.



Possessed Ice Yeti. The one where Link threw an iceberg across the room.



Name those times. You have 1/4th of a single battle right now, which is not a lot of help.



ELb4LbtGPXI

Prove the Warden is strong, please.

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
These abilities apply for each different warden. 5 seconds can be all that's needed to kill Link anyways.

They win due to the effectiveness, armor, and a larger list of abilites along with comparable strength in 2 of the wardens here. They don't win based off of having more abilities alone. Their abilities are also more effective imo.

1.Yes, and it wouldn't take a long time to do so imo along with the fact the mage warden can suck the magic or render it useless from Link.

2.I disagree. With the strength and abilities shown here it's more than enough to kill someone who can be killed or harmed easily by piranha plants.

No, Link cannot as his armor doesn't last forever even in his own game.

In mortal draw Link dies when hit as well.

Either way Link loses. Pick your poison.

Please. Can you even back that up? A Gray Warden is just a normal guy. A giant metal soldier thing with a huge ax/sword can't even kill Link in 5 seconds WITHOUT him wearing the magic armor. You're going to have to defend that with more that "he can do it in five seconds just because."

In your opinion? More effective than a move that instantly kills you? Or a move that dodges enemy attacks and deals out damage of it's own? And again, let's not forget the fact that the Gray Warden can't perform his skill infinitely. He has a stamina bar as well as a cool down time for all of his skills. Link has neither of those things.

1. Again, you need to back that up. I see no reason the Gray Warden would be able to break through magic armor as well as all of Links health in five seconds.

2. The Gray Warden would be harmed just like Link would, in fact he would likely take more damage from those things than Link would. Seeing as how his battle strategy involves standing in front of an enemy while it hits you while swinging your sword. Link actually dodges and defends.

It lasts long enough for Link to attack once. Which is all he would need with Mortal Draw.

Wrong. Link takes the hit, since he has magic armor, and then deals the Mortal Draw. End of the line for the Gray Warden.

Actually,l either way Link wins, but I figure I'd try and show you how ridiculous it is to try and add gameplay mechanics to these debates.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Scenario
And one arrow, bomb or not, kills the final form. But you're dodging the point. The Grey Warden is a humanoid, not a giant monster, so until you prove super durability, a bomb that shatters rocks will kill them.



Dragon Age states they are unblockable. Twilight Princess states that the Master Sword reflects projectiles. A reflect isn't a block. Also, no limits fallacy.



Possessed Ice Yeti. The one where Link threw an iceberg across the room.



Name those times. You have 1/4th of a single battle right now, which is not a lot of help.



ELb4LbtGPXI

Prove the Warden is strong, please. I disagree. You need to prove it destroys a warden first. That's like me saying the rogue warden kills link with one arrow to the throat and demaning you prove me wrong.

Why can't Link block anything else save dorf's attacks as zelda ? That's not the same as blocking everything throw his way. If he cannot block everything coupled with the fact dragon age states they are unblockable then my side wins.

Inconsistent feat which contradicts the way or manner in which he is portrayed.

Why name more ? I named a key battle against his arch nemesis he needs midna for.

I don't have too anyone in tp can hurt link. If they hit him with a sword he bleeds just like anyone else.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TacDavey
Please. Can you even back that up? A Gray Warden is just a normal guy. A giant metal soldier thing with a huge ax/sword can't even kill Link in 5 seconds WITHOUT him wearing the magic armor. You're going to have to defend that with more that "he can do it in five seconds just because."

In your opinion? More effective than a move that instantly kills you? Or a move that dodges enemy attacks and deals out damage of it's own? And again, let's not forget the fact that the Gray Warden can't perform his skill infinitely. He has a stamina bar as well as a cool down time for all of his skills. Link has neither of those things.

1. Again, you need to back that up. I see no reason the Gray Warden would be able to break through magic armor as well as all of Links health in five seconds.

2. The Gray Warden would be harmed just like Link would, in fact he would likely take more damage from those things than Link would. Seeing as how his battle strategy involves standing in front of an enemy while it hits you while swinging your sword. Link actually dodges and defends.

It lasts long enough for Link to attack once. Which is all he would need with Mortal Draw.

Wrong. Link takes the hit, since he has magic armor, and then deals the Mortal Draw. End of the line for the Gray Warden.

Actually,l either way Link wins, but I figure I'd try and show you how ridiculous it is to try and add gameplay mechanics to these debates. A grey warden is not just a normal guy. Not by a longshot. Link can be hurt by the lowliest of grunts and resisting one blunt force attack isn't the same as being totally immune to piercing weapons.

Yes, because Link's move leaves him open to death as well. It's just as bad for Link as his opponent. There are more than enough abilities to use on Link before he or she needs to reload for.

1.Why not ? The mage can eliminate all magical power or hex him in moments. The rogue can mark him for death leaving him open for increased damage, etc.

2.Because both can be hurt by anything in these games and the foolish notion of not having enough strength to hurt the other is just foolishness. Yes, but I don't see Link as experienced or as versatile as any of these wardens.

If he uses the mortal draw then he himself can die.

Wrong it leaves him open for death as per the game.

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
A grey warden is not just a normal guy. Not by a longshot. Link can be hurt by the lowliest of grunts and resisting one blunt force attack isn't the same as being totally immune to piercing weapons.

Yes, because Link's move leaves him open to death as well. It's just as bad for Link as his opponent. There are more than enough abilities to use on Link before he or she needs to reload for.

1.Why not ? The mage can eliminate all magical power or hex him in moments. The rogue can mark him for death leaving him open for increased damage, etc.

2.Because both can be hurt by anything in these games and the foolish notion of not having enough strength to hurt the other is just foolishness. Yes, but I don't see Link as experienced or as versatile as any of these wardens.

If he uses the mortal draw then he himself can die.

Wrong it leaves him open for death as per the game.

What? The Gray Warden can sense darkspawn and is immune to their taint. That's it. Becoming a Gray Warden doesn't give you and super strength or magic abilities.

But not every ability would be useful, and NONE of them would kill link in less than five seconds.

1. Okay. So the mage can hex him. Is that instant death? No? Then Link still comes out the victor. The Rouge can mark him for death. Okay. Is that instant? No? Then Link comes out the victor. Just naming off skills they can use is NOT the same as showing that they would down Link in 5 seconds or less. Now prove THAT or admit defeat.

2. Screw experience. You wanted game mechanics, so that's what we are looking at here. And game mechanics say that Link is faster, and more agile than the Gray Warden, and can also defend whenever he wants. The Gray Warden cannot.

No... You are missing it. Link leaves himself open to being hit, sure. But that isn't a problem with all his health and the magic armor, did you forget about that? So Link MIGHT get hit trying to do it, but that one hit he would get would NOT kill him, however, the mortal draw that Link pulls out on the Gray Warden WOULD kill him.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TacDavey
What? The Gray Warden can sense darkspawn and is immune to their taint. That's it. Becoming a Gray Warden doesn't give you and super strength or magic abilities.

But not every ability would be useful, and NONE of them would kill link in less than five seconds.

1. Okay. So the mage can hex him. Is that instant death? No? Then Link still comes out the victor. The Rouge can mark him for death. Okay. Is that instant? No? Then Link comes out the victor. Just naming off skills they can use is NOT the same as showing that they would down Link in 5 seconds or less. Now prove THAT or admit defeat.

2. Screw experience. You wanted game mechanics, so that's what we are looking at here. And game mechanics say that Link is faster, and more agile than the Gray Warden, and can also defend whenever he wants. The Gray Warden cannot.

No... You are missing it. Link leaves himself open to being hit, sure. But that isn't a problem with all his health and the magic armor, did you forget about that? So Link MIGHT get hit trying to do it, but that one hit he would get would NOT kill him, however, the mortal draw that Link pulls out on the Gray Warden WOULD kill him. They only take in exceptional skill, mages, or badass warriors. So everyone who is a warden is elite and don't act like they are some bums off the street.

I think a sword stab to the throat would kill him instantly in less than two seconds, actually.

Hexing just tilts the matchup very lopsided against Link. All of these abilities make it that much easier to maul Link who isn't that skilled to begin with anyways.

You seem to be forgetting he's paralyzed which means instant death.

2.I don't think Link is faster nor to the point even so of it being the deciding factor. The grey warden has more health, experience, and is more skilled.

Link's magical armor is only temporary and the mage can drain it with one move. If Link attempts the mortal draw he's just as prone to death as the warden is.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by quanchi112
They only take in exceptional skill, mages, or badass warriors. So everyone who is a warden is elite and don't act like they are some bums off the street.

An extremely large majority of the Gray Wardens you meet (or play as depending on Origin), were like, bums off the street, before they were picked up by Duncan. no expression

quanchi112
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
An extremely large majority of the Gray Wardens you meet (or play as depending on Origin), were like, bums off the street, before they were picked up by Duncan. no expression They weren't bums they were skilled or talented gems. Look at the abilities they can all possess throughout the course of the game and look at Link when he first starts out some bum who fishes.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
I disagree. You need to prove it destroys a warden first. That's like me saying the rogue warden kills link with one arrow to the throat and demaning you prove me wrong.

But, Quanchi, that's already finished
Bomb arrows can shatter giant rocks, you know
Without durability, the Warden's diminished
As a bomb on the human body will show
Unless you can prove that the Warden's harder than stone
A single bomb arrow is all it will take to bring him low
And thus Link wins despite what you moan.




Hylian sheild blocks everything more
And even returns a few
Like the Hero's Shade and Zant Helmets score
But still there is something to do
Link can actually dodge with his speed
Unlike the Warden with mechanics we rue
Who stands in one place without a heed




Condradictory and inconsistent?
Why are you so insistent?
Feats are portrayals and portrayals are feats
BloodRain made you a list of caveats
For you to ignore them all is denial
That Link is stronger and you're reaching a mile




Unless you think the Warden's a boar
The example is useless and more
Name something the Warden can do
That Midna might help with, will you?



Refusing evidence once again?
Pick a new tactic please
Now prove he can kill Link, then
If you think he can do it with ease

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
They only take in exceptional skill, mages, or badass warriors. So everyone who is a warden is elite and don't act like they are some bums off the street.

I think a sword stab to the throat would kill him instantly in less than two seconds, actually.

Hexing just tilts the matchup very lopsided against Link. All of these abilities make it that much easier to maul Link who isn't that skilled to begin with anyways.

You seem to be forgetting he's paralyzed which means instant death.

2.I don't think Link is faster nor to the point even so of it being the deciding factor. The grey warden has more health, experience, and is more skilled.

Link's magical armor is only temporary and the mage can drain it with one move. If Link attempts the mortal draw he's just as prone to death as the warden is.

I didn't. They are normal people though. Trained warriors, sure, but completely normal people other than the ability to sense darkspawn.

Wrong. YOU wanted to do game mechanics, which state that any damage Link takes will just come out of his hearts. Unless the Gray Warden has an instant kill move, and he doesn't, Link will survive any hits he gives him until his health runs out. See why game mechanics don't work? Ready to ditch them yet?

It doesn't matter! You can tilt the playing field in the Gray Wardens direction all you want! Unless he has an attack that can stop Link from unleashing Mortal Draw. Link WINS. He doesn't, though. At best, he can stun him a few seconds, and when those fiew seconds are up Link will simply unleash Mortal Draw and kill the Gray Warden instantly. Oh, and Link is an exceptional swordsman. I don't know what you're talking about him not being very skilled.

Instant death? How? Why? Paralyzed mean he stands still until the effect wears off. Which isn't even enough time for the Gray Warden to get through his magic armor, let alone all his health. Try again.

2. You are making a lot of claims here that you aren't backing up. The Gray Warden has more health? Prove that. Experience? Varies depending on the background, and Link is much faster than the Gray Warden. Have you seen the warden move? Have you seen Link move? He can do backflips, side flips, and attack in a steady stream of blows. The Gray Warden can't dodge at all, and can only attack in a slow, rhythmic fashion.

Okay, so Link's magic armor lasts through everyone except the mage. What can the mage do to stop Link's Mortal Draw? Hell, he'd probably Mortal Draw the mage while it was casting the dispel spell on Link's armor!

TacDavey
Originally posted by The Scenario
But, Quanchi, that's already finished
Bomb arrows can shatter giant rocks, you know
Without durability, the Warden's diminished
As a bomb on the human body will show
Unless you can prove that the Warden's harder than stone
A single bomb arrow is all it will take to bring him low
And thus Link wins despite what you moan.

Oh hell... Here we go again. laughing

ScreamPaste
LLLC RHYME TIME, GOGO.

The wardens are unimpressive, Quan,
this is an idea you struggle to don,
but sadly the truth is in feats they are weak,
and the uphill battle for you, is steep.

You have tried to ignore Link's impressive strength,
No warden will survive within sword length.
He is faster, stronger, and more durable than they,
And so your 'argument' must fade away.

You may continue to spout nonsense,
but it will only make you look dense. 131
Everyone but you, seems to grasp the facts,
either that, or this is an impressively stupid act.

Phanteros
This is gonna get epic in here, yo.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Scenario
But, Quanchi, that's already finished
Bomb arrows can shatter giant rocks, you know
Without durability, the Warden's diminished
As a bomb on the human body will show
Unless you can prove that the Warden's harder than stone
A single bomb arrow is all it will take to bring him low
And thus Link wins despite what you moan.




Hylian sheild blocks everything more
And even returns a few
Like the Hero's Shade and Zant Helmets score
But still there is something to do
Link can actually dodge with his speed
Unlike the Warden with mechanics we rue
Who stands in one place without a heed




Condradictory and inconsistent?
Why are you so insistent?
Feats are portrayals and portrayals are feats
BloodRain made you a list of caveats
For you to ignore them all is denial
That Link is stronger and you're reaching a mile




Unless you think the Warden's a boar
The example is useless and more
Name something the Warden can do
That Midna might help with, will you?



Refusing evidence once again?
Pick a new tactic please
Now prove he can kill Link, then
If you think he can do it with ease An arrow to the throat is all a warden needs also. It goes the same way against Link also the mage easily wins and I feel the warrior can survive long enough to get a death blow.

With game play mechanics Link gets stunned quite easily and then the enchantments can slow down his movement speed, etc.

I explained the context behind those feats and the boots are needed for him to achieve the ones you really desperately want but without the weight Link just falls down and can't do anything against a meatier opponent.

Midna helped him the entire game and helped transport a bride my only point was without her Link was screwed which has nothing to do with this thread. I have already listed enough abilities to beat Link.

Anyone in tp can kill Link by attacking him....are you saying if someone from dragon age attacks him he won't feel it ? LOL.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TacDavey
I didn't. They are normal people though. Trained warriors, sure, but completely normal people other than the ability to sense darkspawn.

Wrong. YOU wanted to do game mechanics, which state that any damage Link takes will just come out of his hearts. Unless the Gray Warden has an instant kill move, and he doesn't, Link will survive any hits he gives him until his health runs out. See why game mechanics don't work? Ready to ditch them yet?

It doesn't matter! You can tilt the playing field in the Gray Wardens direction all you want! Unless he has an attack that can stop Link from unleashing Mortal Draw. Link WINS. He doesn't, though. At best, he can stun him a few seconds, and when those fiew seconds are up Link will simply unleash Mortal Draw and kill the Gray Warden instantly. Oh, and Link is an exceptional swordsman. I don't know what you're talking about him not being very skilled.

Instant death? How? Why? Paralyzed mean he stands still until the effect wears off. Which isn't even enough time for the Gray Warden to get through his magic armor, let alone all his health. Try again.

2. You are making a lot of claims here that you aren't backing up. The Gray Warden has more health? Prove that. Experience? Varies depending on the background, and Link is much faster than the Gray Warden. Have you seen the warden move? Have you seen Link move? He can do backflips, side flips, and attack in a steady stream of blows. The Gray Warden can't dodge at all, and can only attack in a slow, rhythmic fashion.

Okay, so Link's magic armor lasts through everyone except the mage. What can the mage do to stop Link's Mortal Draw? Hell, he'd probably Mortal Draw the mage while it was casting the dispel spell on Link's armor! They are exceptional warriors and Link is just another hylian with no real outstanding abilities outside the traditional heroic one.

Both ways he dies so irl where a fatal move kills the warden still wins as does the warden win via gameplay.

Mortal draw leaves Link just as open and also he can bre frozen or stunned quite easily.

Due to the savagery of the warden it is enough and the mage himself or herself can eliminate the magical powers of the armor temporarily.

2.Due to the number of attacks Link can sustain as opposed to the number of attacks the warden can sustain it's not even close. The warden has has armor and what not to negate it whereas Link's armor really doesn't aid him save the magical armor which we have already previously had it out over.

The warden can and will hit Link who isn't that quick to the point o fhim just walking all over the warden and hit he will be.

Mortal draw leaves Link open for death it explains this in the game so if he uses it he dies as he leaves himself open to be hit.



Originally posted by ScreamPaste
LLLC RHYME TIME, GOGO.

The wardens are unimpressive, Quan,
this is an idea you struggle to don,
but sadly the truth is in feats they are weak,
and the uphill battle for you, is steep.

You have tried to ignore Link's impressive strength,
No warden will survive within sword length.
He is faster, stronger, and more durable than they,
And so your 'argument' must fade away.

You may continue to spout nonsense,
but it will only make you look dense. 131
Everyone but you, seems to grasp the facts,
either that, or this is an impressively stupid act. Link's strength isn't very impressive nor are his limited options.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
An arrow to the throat is all a warden needs also. It goes the same way against Link also the mage easily wins and I feel the warrior can survive long enough to get a death blow.


No, you're wrong once again
In game Link tanks flaming arrows and then
All he needs to do is Mortal Draw once
And all Grey Wardens fall like runts



No, not at all, ever met a redead?
They can stun Link and try to behead
But of course then Link makes the check
And can move just in time to counter and wreck
Link can dodge easy and stay out of range
Then snipe from a distance he can arrange



And I explained back the way it actually goes
The boots stop movement, but it is Link who throws
If you don't get this I don't know how to say
Link's sword strikes need no weight in the way
Boots don't increase, arm strength and blows
They just stop Link from ending up on his nose



But Midna won't fight, except for but one
So to keep bringing it up helps your case none
The Warden's no boar, he's a simple man
So Link's combat abilities have this in the can
You've named so few skills, I know not what you mean
But Link's Mortal Draw simply makes the scene
If not, no worries, Link still has a bow
With bombs and the Hawkeye, the Warden won't have a go




I said prove he could kill, not just harm or bleed
Link takes on opponents the Warden can't heed
His skill is superior, as is his strength
Link leaves the Warden to die after a length

TacDavey
Okay Quanchii, this is getting ridiculous.

You don't seem to be grasping very simple points here. Links Magic armor will make him invincible, which means all the Gray Warden versions except the mage will be killed by Mortal Draw, since they can't stop him from doing it, since he has the magic armor. They can stun him only temporarily and not long enough to kill him, sadly.

That leaves the mage, who you claim can dispel his magic armor. That's all well and good, but while the mage is casting that dispel spell, what is to stop Link from Mortal Drawing him in half? The answer? Nothing. So he will.

The rest of your claims are not supported by anything. You simply make claims, and do nothing to back them up.

Unless you can provide valid reasons behind your claims, they mean nothing. Oh, and saying things like, "because of the savagery of the Warden" is not a valid defense. It's just ANOTHER claim with nothing to back it up.

Come talk to me when you have a reasonable argument.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay Quanchii, this is getting ridiculous.

You don't seem to be grasping very simple points here. Links Magic armor will make him invincible, which means all the Gray Warden versions except the mage will be killed by Mortal Draw, since they can't stop him from doing it, since he has the magic armor. They can stun him only temporarily and not long enough to kill him, sadly.

That leaves the mage, who you claim can dispel his magic armor. That's all well and good, but while the mage is casting that dispel spell, what is to stop Link from Mortal Drawing him in half? The answer? Nothing. So he will.

The rest of your claims are not supported by anything. You simply make claims, and do nothing to back them up.

Unless you can provide valid reasons behind your claims, they mean nothing. Oh, and saying things like, "because of the savagery of the Warden" is not a valid defense. It's just ANOTHER claim with nothing to back it up.

Come talk to me when you have a reasonable argument. Nope, and this can be negated and it is only temporary.

Mage is at a safe distance and can cast healing powers to bring him back when he gets near the point of death or to actually come back.

False.

You've seen the videos but haven't played the game so this is all very confusing to you which I excuse you from. It's not your fault, really.


Concession accepted.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No, you're wrong once again
In game Link tanks flaming arrows and then
All he needs to do is Mortal Draw once
And all Grey Wardens fall like runts



No, not at all, ever met a redead?
They can stun Link and try to behead
But of course then Link makes the check
And can move just in time to counter and wreck
Link can dodge easy and stay out of range
Then snipe from a distance he can arrange



And I explained back the way it actually goes
The boots stop movement, but it is Link who throws
If you don't get this I don't know how to say
Link's sword strikes need no weight in the way
Boots don't increase, arm strength and blows
They just stop Link from ending up on his nose



But Midna won't fight, except for but one
So to keep bringing it up helps your case none
The Warden's no boar, he's a simple man
So Link's combat abilities have this in the can
You've named so few skills, I know not what you mean
But Link's Mortal Draw simply makes the scene
If not, no worries, Link still has a bow
With bombs and the Hawkeye, the Warden won't have a go




I said prove he could kill, not just harm or bleed
Link takes on opponents the Warden can't heed
His skill is superior, as is his strength
Link leaves the Warden to die after a length Because they aren't aimed right at his throat and aren't skilled enough to do so unlike the wardens.

Links' facing weaker enemies with weaker gear, strength, durability, intelligence, no enchantments, lack versatility, experience, etc.

Without the boots he can't stop the movement which means the feat is impossible and that he doesn't have the weight necessary to stop them.

Ignore all the aid he had and the fact fate decreed he wins so it neutralizes your own argument and in this thread fate plays no part. Mortal draw also leaves him open to death so let him sit there and die if he wants to.

Anything in tp can kill Link a sword, etc. You agree so of course he dies then.

Link takes on lesser foes who are less cunning and who lack organization.

The Scenario
Originally posted by quanchi112
Because they aren't aimed right at his throat and aren't skilled enough to do so unlike the wardens.

Show me a Warden putting an arrow in someone's throat.

for your trouble here's Link hitting hitting a 1 inch pole from a town away:
5QB428-pJ5g

2:10 for the actual shot. So that proves Link can put an arrow in the Warden's throat.



And Zant and Ganondorf, so your point just died. It has no bearing on the fact that Link has the tools and skills to kill the Warden from a few thousand feet away or up close, whichever. The Warden's never fought anything like Link, either.



Yeah, and unless the Warden rolls into a ball and charges Link, it won't be a problem. However, Link lifting strength is able to pick up Gorons, and putting that behind a sword swing makes it deal a ridiculous amount of damage.



It's almost like you think the Warden doesn't have party members to help him. And what with this fate crap, it sounds like you don't think Link can do anything. You have yet to actually prove Link will die in one hit if he uses the Mortal Draw, and you have yet to prove the Warden can hit Link before getting killed.



Sure, why not, but nothing can kill Link in one hit like you seem to think. Unfortunately, Link can pull off the Mortal Draw before the Warden can kill him.



But this is one on one, and again, the Warden's never fought anything like Link.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Scenario
Show me a Warden putting an arrow in someone's throat.

for your trouble here's Link hitting hitting a 1 inch pole from a town away:
5QB428-pJ5g

2:10 for the actual shot. So that proves Link can put an arrow in the Warden's throat.



And Zant and Ganondorf, so your point just died. It has no bearing on the fact that Link has the tools and skills to kill the Warden from a few thousand feet away or up close, whichever. The Warden's never fought anything like Link, either.



Yeah, and unless the Warden rolls into a ball and charges Link, it won't be a problem. However, Link lifting strength is able to pick up Gorons, and putting that behind a sword swing makes it deal a ridiculous amount of damage.



It's almost like you think the Warden doesn't have party members to help him. And what with this fate crap, it sounds like you don't think Link can do anything. You have yet to actually prove Link will die in one hit if he uses the Mortal Draw, and you have yet to prove the Warden can hit Link before getting killed.



Sure, why not, but nothing can kill Link in one hit like you seem to think. Unfortunately, Link can pull off the Mortal Draw before the Warden can kill him.



But this is one on one, and again, the Warden's never fought anything like Link. That's not canon for one. This isn't necessary in the game either you don't need to hit this target to progress.

Link I think doesn't have the skill that the warden's well mainly the rogue posses in this area.

Zant and Dorf aren't that formidable nor do they prove capable of beating more than 5 guys without an army or aid present.

The warden's fought enemies much more powerful and more intelligent and formidable than Link. This should be like pregame to a warden.

Why would the warden ever do something so stupid as to roll in a ball and attack ? The wardens would do massive damage to something or someone so stupid yet Link's options are put on boots and stop because he cannot really do anything else.

Link can be parried easily by enemy knights so really his strength doesn't show it at all in combat it's his skill that carries him. It doesn't matter anyways fate makes him win which has nothing to do with this thread.

The fate thing makes every feat Link did unimpressive because this had to happen but in this thread he doesn't have fate on his side so he dies. They make it clear in the game he puts himself in as much danger as his enemy.


I disagree the mortal draw leaves him vulnerable and the warden attacks.

Link's sub par from the enemies he's faced think osu vs a high school team.

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
Nope, and this can be negated and it is only temporary.

Mage is at a safe distance and can cast healing powers to bring him back when he gets near the point of death or to actually come back.

False.

You've seen the videos but haven't played the game so this is all very confusing to you which I excuse you from. It's not your fault, really.


Concession accepted.

Ha ha ha. Thanks for proving my point. I love how on the very post after I accuse you of claiming things without backing them up, you respond with "False" and "Nope".

You, sir, are amusing.

You have blatantly ignored all my points, and have completely disregarded my call for evidence to support your points. Although, you'll probably respond to that with a "nope" or maybe a good old "false". And then sit back and pretend those are actually good answers.

Oh, and by the way. I have played both games all the way through. In fact, I have played Dragon Age Origins through a few times.

laughing

quanchi112
Originally posted by TacDavey
Ha ha ha. Thanks for proving my point. I love how on the very post after I accuse you of claiming things without backing them up, you respond with "False" and "Nope".

You, sir, are amusing.

You have blatantly ignored all my points, and have completely disregarded my call for evidence to support your points. Although, you'll probably respond to that with a "nope" or maybe a good old "false". And then sit back and pretend those are actually good answers.

Oh, and by the way. I have played both games all the way through. In fact, I have played Dragon Age Origins through a few times.

laughing What have I stated that was not in either game ?

TacDavey
Originally posted by quanchi112
What have I stated that was not in either game ?

It's not what you have stated, but what you haven't. Evidence being the most important.

Simply responding to a point with "Nope" isn't good enough Quanchi.

Sappho
to be very honest, i dont think ANYONE should debate with quanchi. he obviously wont accept when hes wrong, so whats the point? we all know the answer to this fight. i mean he LITERALLY takes what you guys say and either 1. ignores it completely or 2. he gives some other reason for why its "wrong"

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