Raziel vs OOT Link

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Originally posted by Burning thought
Less than doubled? the top the blocks could give him was around 100 tonnes, Raziel can now lift with ease something heavier than any Link has lifted with effort.

That never happened, his magic protection has never reflected the elements Raziel will use and Raziels skills are honed in over a thousand years of excistence vs Links "training" with some apprently skilled characters.

Raziel does not use strength, but TK, tosses Link into the ground and breaks his neck. Ganon couldn't break Link's arm and you think Raziel can break Link's neck with less than a thousandth of his strength? Lol'd.

Link receives no training in OoT, try playing it, it's all hard earned.

Sword deflects elemental attacks as does the mirror shield, play the game.

Do you forget who did the old math for Raziel, BR agreed with me IIRC that the numbers made sense with the pushing to put Raziel at a 46 tonner. He pushed the blocks at the same speed a 46 tonner would do. Now he's toppled, not lifted, 700 tons by BR's numbers, which by the numbers Link can toss at speeds that would make MLB players green with envy.

CosmicComet

Waiting for Scenario to post as he seems to prefer debating OOT Link.

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Originally posted by CosmicComet
Waiting for Scenario to post as he seems to prefer debating OOT Link. Indeed, but don't you feel a little bad for increasing the poor bastard's work load? He posts even harder than I did before I got driven bonkers by threads just like this one.

CosmicComet

You aren't going away yet you lazy bastard. You gotta earn your retirement with this last thread, by helping Scenario. Since you also seem to prefer OOT/MM Link.

And then you still have to wait for Skyward Sword, so your retirement will be temporary anyway.

Burning thought

I cant see how Ganon has the capability of it. Link getting smashed into the ground by his head is not going to end well for him.

He does not even get any training? damn hes less impressive than I thought.

The sword from what I have seen has reflected one magical attack, Thats it. Show me moar?

A lot of people, we all got a similiar figuire and Raziel does it all eaisly. It seems 700 tonnes is easy for him as well, toppled is the same in this sense because he has to lift it up for it to topple. Link cant "toss" at speeds much of anything because technically he has a hard job just lifting the thing. The rest of the scene is ignorance of physics, both for the actual lifting the way he did and propelling it despite earlier weakness AND without moving arms hardly iirc.

CosmicComet

You can't accept only the first few seconds of a sequence and not the remaining few seconds.

It's simple to justify. Link lifts it gingerly at first for cautionary reasons, and then realizes he can toss it at a much greater strength.

Burning thought

If he lifts it and it was ok, then he would not have made a sigh of stress/effort. Which was audiable. Also how do you justify him apprently throwing it without moving his arms becaue iirc, he hardly moves to send it moving.

how do you justify the balance, theres a guy who weghs about 200 pounds (unlikely high but still) holding 650 tonnes on his chest. This is not physically possible, I would need some convincing to agree to that.

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Originally posted by CosmicComet
You aren't going away yet you lazy bastard. You gotta earn your retirement with this last thread, by helping Scenario. Since you also seem to prefer OOT/MM Link.

And then you still have to wait for Skyward Sword, so your retirement will be temporary anyway. Skyward will admittedly boost my post count. stick out tongue

Are you implying he gets all his MM shit, too? haermmOriginally posted by CosmicComet
You can't accept only the first few seconds of a sequence and not the remaining few seconds.

It's simple to justify. Link lifts it gingerly at first for cautionary reasons, and then realizes he can toss it at a much greater strength. Indeed. Link, thanks to that toss, is still MUCH stronger than Raziel.

CosmicComet

Sure, Link can get all of his MM stuff since I'm not talking about just Soul Reaver 1 Raziel, but also SR2 and Defiance.

Burning thought

I want to see the video for this toss again, theres likely even more reasons why its illogical and ignores physics. Lifting that much weight on a guy as light as link is one thing but tossing it without hardly moving is another altogether. What with the Goron toonforce in TP and WW link sliding/squeeking down a wall , toonforce (igorance of logic or physics) seems to be something consistant in the series.

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Originally posted by CosmicComet
Sure, Link can get all of his MM stuff since I'm not talking about just Soul Reaver 1 Raziel, but also SR2 and Defiance. ...haermm DEAR GAWD, sir. I think I love you.

Giant's mask --> Apply chateau Romani and Nayru's love. At that point Link can basicly go about the manly task of crushing another being with his penis.

Burning thought

Until his body gets slit open like an envelope and Raziel takes his soul.

CosmicComet

Well lest things appear to be unfairly balanced, let me clarify the rules.

Raz can go the spectral realm as much as he needs to, but if he gets knocked into it, then its a loss.

Burning thought

If he can go in and out as he wishes then Raziel now has his own "time stop" as well.

Super strength, PSI of claws, time stop, abilities to go invisible and blind Link. yeh Raziel wins.

Seems amusing to see Link desperatly slashing all over the place for someone whos about to gut/soul rape him. He cant see him, and in some cases he may not even be on Links plane of excistence/dimension.

CosmicComet

Raziel still puts himself in a vulnerable position while attempting to shift planes, its not an instant, 'speed of thought' thing in the games nor is it here.

Burning thought

its more than quick enough. All Link will see (assuming Raziel is even visible) is Raziel appearing assuming hes looking in the right direction. Considering Links slower speed, Link wont be able to do much especially if Raziel tosses him away using TK before he does anything that may make him vulnerable.

Raziel holds all the cards, whats stopping Raziel from snatching Links items with TK? If Links not got his bow out, Raziel steals it, if hes not wearing certain shields, yoink!, if he has potions around his belt, yoink!.

Whats link going to do against such a crafty little wraith?

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Lense of Truth, problem solvent, I'd like to see evidence Raziel can hurt Link.

Link's protected from such nonsense, has been covered before, and he wouldn't be able to do it before Link outright smote him, would need to identify such items and reach into Link's hammerspace to get them, ect, IE, not viable.

Raziel is slower, Link plays tennis with a lightning bolt in this game.

Burning thought

Id like to see Links durability myself, better feats than "Ganon disarmed Link!", as well. According to the wiki, the Lense of Truth only sees through illusions, not invisability, furthermore by the looks of its image its one of those things that Raziel would easily TK into the air.

Its not been proven before at all and Link would be fair game. trying to use "its protected in the hammerspace" is daft. Gameplay mechanics.

Link plays tennis with a slow moving orb of energy. Slower than the Blood omen 1 energy spell even.

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Play the game, invisibility is covered. Raziel can't tk a spell, which is what it is.

Link's protected, been proven many times, but ofcourse you ignore that. You're actually going to argue with Link's hammerspace, now? no expression

Burning thought

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Play the game, invisibility is covered. Raziel can't tk a spell, which is what it is.

Link's protected, been proven many times, but ofcourse you ignore that. You're actually going to argue with Link's hammerspace, now? no expression

So you propose that Link is infact always carrying around everything, visibly, without any encumberment? In this case Link one-arms Raziel with the megaton hammer, since he can apparently carry that, the iron boots, three swords/tunics/shields, ect.

Play the game, it's lightning. A power Ganon's demonstrated numerous times and which Link consistently deals with successfully.

Prove it.

Thats not been proven, I have seen some no limit fallacies and feats that dont cover Lok strength, thats about it. Clearly in real life he manages somehow, we just dont know how but theres no "canon" in a storyline based around a hammerspace, its a common gameplay mechanic nothing more. Links not even getting a hit on Raziel and if he attempts to, Raziel pulls it from his grasp and shatters it.

A lot of people whove played the game also disagree with you, fascistcrusder, Sin and Bloodrain (not sure if he played it but still) have proven that its just a slow moving bolt, nothing more to overhype about it.

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Originally posted by Burning thought
Prove it.

Thats not been proven, I have seen some no limit fallacies and feats that dont cover Lok strength, thats about it. Clearly in real life he manages somehow, we just dont know how but theres no "canon" in a storyline based around a hammerspace, its a common gameplay mechanic nothing more. Links not even getting a hit on Raziel and if he attempts to, Raziel pulls it from his grasp and shatters it.

A lot of people whove played the game also disagree with you, fascistcrusder, Sin and Bloodrain (not sure if he played it but still) have proven that its just a slow moving bolt, nothing more to overhype about it.
Play the game.

Kool. Link without any gauntlets can now one arm a hammer so hefty it can force a pillar that makes Raziel's look like a tooth-pick into motion. Nice.

Nah, a lot of people have postulated without any evidence whatsoever. It's been proven multiple times Ganon attacks with full speed lightning, for you to assume he slows it down just so Link can win is idiocy. It's a gameplay mechanic, nothing more.

Also, lol@a magic, sentient sword notbothering to cover soem silly loophole you pulled out of your ass. haermm

Burning thought

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Play the game.

Kool. Link without any gauntlets can now one arm a hammer so hefty it can force a pillar that makes Raziel's look like a tooth-pick into motion. Nice.

Nah, a lot of people have postulated without any evidence whatsoever. It's been proven multiple times Ganon attacks with full speed lightning, for you to assume he slows it down just so Link can win is idiocy. It's a gameplay mechanic, nothing more.

Also, lol@a magic, sentient sword notbothering to cover soem silly loophole you pulled out of your ass. haermm

Thats not evidence, hence why you should look up some evidence before you join a debate.

And youve postulated without any evidence so far, like you do in most threads. Your almost as bad as Quanchi when it comes to evidence. I didnt say he slows it down, I agree with the game however that in this instance he fires a slow moving energy bolt.

Wut? make sense boy.

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It's been posted at you innumerable times by myself, Scenario, Moo, ect. If it hasn't sunk in yet, it's not worth my effort to do it again. smile

Sin proved the point with videos of Ganon using full speed lightning, by accident. haermm It's been a part of his power set since 1991, they and continued to be through out, and after OoT, you're reaching for straws trying to use a gameplay mechanic (The player needing to reflect the lightning) to claim it is slower than lightning, which it is not. That would involve Ganondorf intentionally slowing down an attack to make Link's life easier.. IE, retarded assumption is retarded.

Burning thought

Yes I have posted evidence that Raziel or Kain tool any Link or character in LoZ, fact is it does not apprently sink in. Its not worth my time to duck and dive through fanon especially not with someone who does not know what evidence is sad

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Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes I have posted evidence that Raziel or Kain tool any Link or character in LoZ, fact is it does not apprently sink in. Its not worth my time to duck and dive through fanon especially not with someone who does not know what evidence is sad

Yeh, but clearly despite being part of his powerset he decided not to use it here. You are using a gameplay mechanic. other than that you just repeated your previous statement, your previous evidence does not help you.
The delicious irony here is delicious. Netiehr Kain nor Raziel have a reaction feat to their name that would allow them to keep up with Link or Ganon, or a strength feat allowing them to harm either physicly, 320 kj is small potatoes in the realm of 3+ GJ characters.

OBSERVE: Link's strength without the gauntlets still embarrasses Raziel.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/firepillar.jpg
http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/firepillar2.jpg

Also, you repeat yourself: You assume Ganondorf intentionally slowed down his own attack for no reason, this is a flawed assumption, and you base this SOLELY on a gameplay mechanic designed to allow the player to actually play the fight. Nice. IE, you have no argument, and you're plugging your ears and making excuses for shit you don't like.

Burning thought

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The delicious irony here is delicious. Netiehr Kain nor Raziel have a reaction feat to their name that would allow them to keep up with Link or Ganon, or a strength feat allowing them to harm either physicly, 320 kj is small potatoes in the realm of 3+ GJ characters.

OBSERVE: Link's strength without the gauntlets still embarrasses Raziel.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/firepillar.jpg
http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/firepillar2.jpg

Also, you repeat yourself: You assume Ganondorf intentionally slowed down his own attack for no reason, this is a flawed assumption, and you base this SOLELY on a gameplay mechanic designed to allow the player to actually play the fight. Nice. IE, you have no argument, and you're plugging your ears and making excuses for shit you don't like.

Feats do not support your claims, both Raziel and Kain have above human statistics and have feats showing them quicker than humans, Link and Ganon on the other hand, not so much.... 3+ GJ is a lie, such numbers do not excist for Link.

I dont see Link doing anything but looking at the thing. not to mension it looks like brick, bricks layed on top of eachother, not something as solid or as heavy as Raziels Obelisk. Its also thinner, despite being taller.

I never said that, reading comprehension ftw. Your trying to use a gameplay mechanic, then on top of that an assumption simply because it looks like lightning. Poor play, poor debate argument.

The Scenario

Sorry I'm not going to be able to deal with this at the moment, as I have other stuffs and Quanchi.

Burning thought

No problem honey, we will probably be still at it when your done....xxx

MooCowofJustice

Indeed, Scenario. It doesn't take a lot to handle BT, just the patience of a saint in order to repeat yourself so many times you could actually predict the next replies to it.

Burning thought

You cant "handle" me because youve yet to win a debate, problem is spamming your points over and over is all "you" do smile

, hence why you cant handle me unfortunatly. Thus why these threads are boring. Your admitting to spamming....

Although I admit sometimes i do it to when I have to repeat myself without worth against stacks of unproven claims sad

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Originally posted by Burning thought
Feats do not support your claims, both Raziel and Kain have above human statistics and have feats showing them quicker than humans, Link and Ganon on the other hand, not so much.... 3+ GJ is a lie, such numbers do not excist for Link.

I dont see Link doing anything but looking at the thing. not to mension it looks like brick, bricks layed on top of eachother, not something as solid or as heavy as Raziels Obelisk. Its also thinner, despite being taller.

I never said that, reading comprehension ftw. Your trying to use a gameplay mechanic, then on top of that an assumption simply because it looks like lightning. Poor play, poor debate argument. GJ ignoring evidence again. Your first point is basicly that you don't actually pay attention. Thanks.

It's MUCH taller, and thinner is debatable, and Link drives it into the floor below like a nail.

K, now you're dancing around it again, you're just repeating yourself in different ways and trying to disguise you're flawed argument. IE, you actually believe Ganondorf would sabotage himself, or you're trolling.

Math tiem; because j00 love it.

Link is 151 pixels tall, each section of the pillar in the image, from the top of one dotted line to the top of the next, is 174 pixels on the left side, farthest from the camera, if Link is 6', this makes the edge a minimum of 6.9 feet in height per section.

Horizonatally, the pillar is 297 pixels, not accounting for foreshortening OR the angle which adds another 25 pixels. Minimum of 11.8 feet. Is actually closer to: 12.7

So, the pillar is square based, so it's base*height for volume per section, base is: 163, or 139 depeinding on which measurement you use. height is 6.9,

that's either 960.7 cubic feet of volume per section or 1124.7 cubic feet. Note also that the pillar is infact solid in it's core as shown in the bottom image. The texture pack I had just added the brick texture, and is not the canon texture for the pillar.

You can easily count 12 sections of pillar in the first image without approaching the bottom, where there could easily be 5 more, or more! The bottom image displays very clearly that 12 is a thoroughly inadequate number. But I'll use 12. smile

Now, let's assume various densities;

65 lbs/foot, the approximate density of water:

Minimum per section: 31 tons.
Maximum per section: 36 tons
Total weight for 12 sections: 374 tons, or 438.6 tons.

100 lbs/foot, close to something like sand or gravel (Lolimpossibly light.):

Minimum per section: 48 tons.
Maximum per section: 56 tons.
Total weight per 12 sections: 674 tons, or 576.4 tons.

150 lbs/foot, a fair/average weight for most types of stone, too light for granite, which is the most common stone building material the world over:

Minimum weight per section: 72 tons.
Maximum weight per section: 84 tons.

Total weight per 12 sections: 1012.2 tons, or 864.6 tons.

See where I am going with this?

Burning thought

Show me Link interract with it first, youve not shown me anything about images of Link standing around it. Go and find a video then get back to me, in the mean time this math may or may not be likely, I wonder what BR will make of it.

Also not all the segments of the obelisk look the same size or width apart.

MooCowofJustice

So Kain can't manipulate blood. It just looks like blood. Actually it's cherry kool-aid. These powers are an assumption based solely looks.

BloodRain

Id rather be able to manipulate the kool-aid..
Originally posted by Burning thought
I wonder what BR will make of it.
Make of all the stuff SP just said? BR would just nod his head so he doesn't have to read anything.

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Originally posted by BloodRain
Id rather be able to manipulate the kool-aid..

Make of all the stuff SP just said? BR would just nod his head so he doesn't have to read anything.
<3

MooCowofJustice

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats not a "gameplay mechanic", thats an ability that was used in gameplay.

An ability used in gameplay. Sounds like hitting back Ganon's lightning.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I did apply them to my characters, thet just dont happen to distort physics by any major scope.

No, you clearly did not. Mostly because they do distort physics, just as much as, if not more than anything Link does.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, it breaks physics in the same way it takes the protagonist who needs shields for protection and weapons and how needs to figuire out countless puzzles rather than digging through them with his hands and makes them do things their durability/strength does not allow due to previous events. its not all about upward force, the opposite/equel action still counts and Link would be crushed into bone, or fall flat if he was proven to be durable.

Sounds like non-canon gameplay you're using. roll eyes (sarcastic)

BloodRain

But I do want to address the infamous pillar. So here's what I got;
On side of the hexagon is 270cm if Link is 190cm making the hex area 189,399.76cm2*1100cm
= 208339736cm3*2.6
= 541683313.6g or 600 tons

Last time I put the height up to 1200. Using 183cm for Link's height would make it just over 500 tons.

MooCowofJustice

Which pillar are you mathing?

BloodRain

OoT one with the Golden Gauntlets.

MooCowofJustice

Mind sharing the rest of your numbers with me, and perhaps the location of the exact pillar you are using for reference?

Burning thought

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
An ability used in gameplay. Sounds like hitting back Ganon's lightning.

No, you clearly did not. Mostly because they do distort physics, just as much as, if not more than anything Link does.

Sounds like non-canon gameplay you're using. roll eyes (sarcastic)

But good job. This argument has been made by you and others before, and just as easily, is defeated. The game is far too easy when Link's true powers are available in gameplay. It's like that in countless games. God of War, Devil May Cry, even LoK.

Equal and opposite reaction, you say? Interesting, we've used that very same argument to prove durability in the past. Yet you insisted it was nonsense. What changed? Hmm...

Anyway. Durability on that level is not out of the question for Link. And another thing, you've before insisted that Legend of Zelda does not use realistic physics. What changed your opinion there? Could it possibly be that...everything you say changes only to counter the point at hand, thus causing you to contradict yourself over and over again?

Why is it that the equal and opposite reaction rule has to prove that Link's actions defy physics, as opposed to proving his durability?

OF COURSE, WE'RE ALL FORGETTING WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT HERE. FEATS DON'T HAVE TO BE LOGICAL IN THE FIRST PLACE! AHAHAHAHA!

Whoa, I just got you to agree that Link's pillar isn't toonforce.

Really? So being aided takes away from your super poweredness. Sounds like Kain is screwed, as well as Raziel.

It still defies physics. Something of their mass cannot produce that much force without it being so. That is what defines a superpower.

Kain and Raziel have been given powers, so they can't defy physics. Good to know. This rule applies to Link as well, since we're all being fair here. His powers of super strength therefore erase him from the list of toonforce users.

It's funny you mention that though. Is it ever stated in LoK that Kain's vampireness gives him his powers?

Because Link does hit back Ganons slow energy balls, he has to and its scripted, that does not make it as fast as a natural thunderbolt.

Ah you see this is where your confusing the rule, your claiming they do distort physics as much as Link does, this is where you prove it instead of trying to claim my "rule" does not work.

Does it really? Link doing puzzles throughout all the series and not using this apprent strength for anything more yet despite this, the developers giving him more items than one can shake a stick at is all canon. Thats what actually happens. You cant skip puzzles that almost entirely from what I have seen "should" be passable without said items.

GoW and DMC and as shown LoK to a lesser extent than the last 2, make the strength, powers and abilities of said characters obvious throughout the whole games, not just one instance or two.

Nobody agrees with that nonsense iirc, only you and Screampaste. Not because the opposite/equel reaction does not work here but because the event concerning the pillar is toonforce, and the character is not portrayed as such. Links never, unlike Kain, Kratos etc resisted incredible wounds.

Yes it is, thats why your coments make no sense. It does not change, theres just more factors involved than you seem to be able to understand, you belive theres only one set of possible answers. I have many answers, many of them disproven your claims.

I dont think Links pillar is, I think the throwing of said pillar is more so. Then again, as I said before his little lightweight body holding it like he does is toonforce.

Links not been given superpowers though, hes been given an item that only increases his strength, not gives him incredible mass. So this is where your lack of logic trips you up sad

and you need more than superstrength to balance an object as heavy as the pillar when your as light as Link and as small.

Blood omen 2, Umah. Although now your trying to play a silly bugger. Your not going to impress me with that.

MooCowofJustice

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because Link does hit back Ganons slow energy balls, he has to and its scripted, that does not make it as fast as a natural thunderbolt.

See ScreamPaste's posts.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ah you see this is where your confusing the rule, your claiming they do distort physics as much as Link does, this is where you prove it instead of trying to claim my "rule" does not work.

I never claimed it doesn't work. I said it does work, actually. And I used the work it does to make Kain and Raziel into users of toonforce.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Does it really? Link doing puzzles throughout all the series and not using this apprent strength for anything more yet despite this, the developers giving him more items than one can shake a stick at is all canon. Thats what actually happens. You cant skip puzzles that almost entirely from what I have seen "should" be passable without said items.

Yes.

Yeah. It is. Similar to how Kain and Raziel, Kratos, Dante, Mercer, and even Hulk in his video games follow the same nonsensical rule.

Originally posted by Burning thought
GoW and DMC and as shown LoK to a lesser extent than the last 2, make the strength, powers and abilities of said characters obvious throughout the whole games, not just one instance or two.

Lol, not a chance. In GoW1, Kratos rips around the head of the hydra. And yet he cannot force his way through a door with chains on it. Sound familiar? The same happens with Dante and Kain. Not to a lesser extent by any means. All it is is that the strength cannot be used because it would make the game way too easy.

It isn't just one instance either. Link progresses in strength. Even then, what difference does only one instance make? He's still done the action, proving he can do it. Now you're just scrambling and looking for worthless nonsense to cling to.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Nobody agrees with that nonsense iirc, only you and Screampaste. Not because the opposite/equel reaction does not work here but because the event concerning the pillar is toonforce, and the character is not portrayed as such. Links never, unlike Kain, Kratos etc resisted incredible wounds.

Sounds like an appeal to popularity fallacy.

Toonforce based on what? Disobeying physics in the same way every other character with super strength in fiction disobeys physics? Or perhaps defying some daft form of your logic? Wait, that's the one that doesn't matter, because feats don't have to make sense. All that you're left with to claim toonforce is the fact that you want it to be toonforce.

AHAHA! You just used Quan-Tum fizziks! So let's apply some real logic to that. What does a character have to do in order to be "portrayed" as someone with super strength? I mean, clearly lifting heavy objects and producing and taking more force than normal humanly possible isn't good enough for that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes it is, thats why your coments make no sense. It does not change, theres just more factors involved than you seem to be able to understand, you belive theres only one set of possible answers. I have many answers, many of them disproven your claims.

Lol, based on what is that level of durability out of the question? What freaking more does he have to do? He can take explosions to the face and survive leaps off death mountain, walk around in active volcanoes and makes a habit out of knocking shit out of trees with his face.

The rest of that kind of took the words right out of my mouth. Give those back, they belong to me.

There is only one correct answer. And you do not have it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont think Links pillar is, I think the throwing of said pillar is more so. Then again, as I said before his little lightweight body holding it like he does is toonforce.

Ahaha. See the above reply. "Based on what is it toonforce?"

Why are you even replying to this? You already agreed it wasn't toonforce.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Links not been given superpowers though, hes been given an item that only increases his strength, not gives him incredible mass. So this is where your lack of logic trips you up sad

and you need more than superstrength to balance an object as heavy as the pillar when your as light as Link and as small.

Clearly, he has superpowers. I bet monkeys can learn to type before you finally understand all of this.

I see you're agreeing with me. Link would realistically require more mass in order to produce that much force. So while it does defy physics in that regard, it's no different than what Kain and Raziel can supposedly do.

Ah, and here's the pointless details for the sake of realism argument again. This one also applies to LoK. Kain and Raziel do not trip, screw up any spells, ever. Toonforce because pointless details for the sake of realism are not present.

I bet Link is taller than Kain and Raziel.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Blood omen 2, Umah. Although now your trying to play a silly bugger. Your not going to impress me with that.

Lmfao, no, I'm not. And I don't need to impress you.

Kain and Raziel are aided by vampireness. So that takes away from their powers, yes? They've been given increased strength, not increased mass. TOONFORCE!

Burning thought

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
See ScreamPaste's posts.

I never claimed it doesn't work. I said it does work, actually. And I used the work it does to make Kain and Raziel into users of toonforce.

Yes.

Yeah. It is. Similar to how Kain and Raziel, Kratos, Dante, Mercer, and even Hulk in his video games follow the same nonsensical rule.

Lol, not a chance. In GoW1, Kratos rips around the head of the hydra. And yet he cannot force his way through a door with chains on it. Sound familiar? The same happens with Dante and Kain. Not to a lesser extent by any means. All it is is that the strength cannot be used because it would make the game way too easy.

It isn't just one instance either. Link progresses in strength. Even then, what difference does only one instance make? He's still done the action, proving he can do it. Now you're just scrambling and looking for worthless nonsense to cling to.

Sounds like an appeal to popularity fallacy.

Toonforce based on what? Disobeying physics in the same way every other character with super strength in fiction disobeys physics? Or perhaps defying some daft form of your logic? Wait, that's the one that doesn't matter, because feats don't have to make sense. All that you're left with to claim toonforce is the fact that you want it to be toonforce.

AHAHA! You just used Quan-Tum fizziks! So let's apply some real logic to that. What does a character have to do in order to be "portrayed" as someone with super strength? I mean, clearly lifting heavy objects and producing and taking more force than normal humanly possible isn't good enough for that.

Lol, based on what is that level of durability out of the question? What freaking more does he have to do? He can take explosions to the face and survive leaps off death mountain, walk around in active volcanoes and makes a habit out of knocking shit out of trees with his face.

The rest of that kind of took the words right out of my mouth. Give those back, they belong to me.

There is only one correct answer. And you do not have it.

Ahaha. See the above reply. "Based on what is it toonforce?"

Why are you even replying to this? You already agreed it wasn't toonforce.

Clearly, he has superpowers. I bet monkeys can learn to type before you finally understand all of this.

I see you're agreeing with me. Link would realistically require more mass in order to produce that much force. So while it does defy physics in that regard, it's no different than what Kain and Raziel can supposedly do.

Ah, and here's the pointless details for the sake of realism argument again. This one also applies to LoK. Kain and Raziel do not trip, screw up any spells, ever. Toonforce because pointless details for the sake of realism are not present.

I bet Link is taller than Kain and Raziel.

Lmfao, no, I'm not. And I don't need to impress you.

Kain and Raziel are aided by vampireness. So that takes away from their powers, yes? They've been given increased strength, not increased mass. TOONFORCE!

I have, its filled with as many assumptions and unproven statements as yours. A lot of people have seen your posts concerning that thunderbolt and laughed its lack of evidence away.

But you cant, because youve yet to show an instance of toonforce in effect. They dont break physics, they are given powers to allow them to work with the physics.

What rule? All I hear about LoZ is puzzles, having to work through them, the water puzzle for example, the weight puzzles. Kratos on the other hand consistently has large, animated scripted events where he beats Titans, Dante shows us him moving at ridiculous speeds, Kain and Raziel move heavy objects often in cutscenes and throughout or do other supernatural things. But Link? without any items, not sure theres any consistency at all in him being a 650 tonner.

Thats a gameplay mechanic iirc, the door thing I mean. What you fail to mension is that Kratos rips off hydra heads, stops Chronos' punch and his strength toys with the enormous Gods who can thrown down Titans (Gaia vs Poseidon). What the whole game? nah, Dante, Kain and Kratos consistently use supernatural powers, either strength, speed etc consistently, as do others of their race, e.g vampires, demons etc. Theres a lot of factors that go into the reasoning here that you dont seem to want to grasp.

You would know one, and it would be if that was my argument why your wrong. That was just a side statement of how your convincing me or indeed anyone else due to lack of evidence.

Clearly? based on what? because of one or two feats despite the consistency of his whole game? despite no other entity of his class (human basically with pointy ears) doing out of the ordinairy feats. never is it mensioned Link has any implication of being above human without any items. Personally I think hes above human (not to the extent you do) but still, the game does not indicate it. Wheras divine Kratos, Demonic Dante and vampire Kain all have connections to their powers within the fiction. The Elder God even says it for Raziel in a cutscene that hes stronger. When is this said for base Link? (no items)

Its different, why? because Raziel or Kain use only their strength on a heavy object, they dont actually take the weight on themselves for any duration like Link.

Yes you do if you want to apprently win anything for your "LoZ" side, otherwise your admitting to wasting your time roll eyes (sarcastic)

BloodRain

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Mind sharing the rest of your numbers with me, and perhaps the location of the exact pillar you are using for reference?
..What other numbers are needed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiS6xPeMPXM&feature#t=7m10s
The length is about 1.4x his height, 270cm.
Can check an online calc to get that to the hexagons area. Thats base.
The half way point, middle of the moon, is 2.75 Links height then double it for full size, 1045cm.
Like I said putting the end points together to round it up to 1100cm.
189,399.76*1100=208339736*2.6=g
Turn that to tons and thats it. Cba to to the printscreens atm.

MooCowofJustice

I'll get to BT the next time I feel like cutting myself.

But Rain, you need a lot more. It looks to me like you're only doing surface area. You need the formula for volume. It requires the length of each face, the width of each face, the surface area of the top and bottom faces, and the total height. When you have the volume you simply multiply it by the density of Black Granite.

Edit: HOWEVER! I did notice something extremely interesting. It looks to me like that pillar does a little wobbling back and forth. Ahahahahahahaha.

CosmicComet

No one is going to argue toonforce against Kratos, despite his various feats more or less requiring that the ground give way like a wet paper towel.

Stop the toonforce claims. Make legitimate arguments.

MooCowofJustice

BT would argue toonforce against Kratos. He just needs to be so thoroughly defeated that it's his last "argument" left.

CosmicComet

I'm begging ya dude. Be civil. lol.

I know that's the last thing you want to do.

Don't want this locked.

Burning thought

Nobody whos argument is based on "toonforce" can defeat me. Certainly not when strength is not even that important to this matchup.

To get a real argument going ill ignore the strength parts of this thread, what about durability. Raziel iirc does not have much but what do Links supporters claim as durable for Link?

MooCowofJustice

I'll do it...FOR JUSTICE!!

But, you seem relatively unbiased. Do me a favor, chime in between me and BT. Does it appear as though I'm twisting his points around into some bent form of my own logic? Or am I doing as I believe, and merely applying his own points to the characters he defends?

Edit: BT. Watch Rain's video. That pillar wobbles, like you required it to. So what new requirement will you come up with to make it so that it is toonforce?

Burning thought

Randomly claiming that Lok characters do unphysical acts, despite a ton of factual information declaring the differences how the comparison your trying to make is so vast does not work as an argument.

I dont require it to wobble, infact if it wobbles, that means that it was unsteady and that theres no way someone of Links size and weight could have held it. The guy would have fallen over, especially since it wobbles. If it was steady then it would have just been a factor to take into account, but now that it wobbles, its clear the thing can "move" and Links hold is not some gravity/vicelike grip.

BloodRain

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I'll get to BT the next time I feel like cutting myself.

But Rain, you need a lot more. It looks to me like you're only doing surface area. You need the formula for volume. It requires the length of each face, the width of each face, the surface area of the top and bottom faces, and the total height. When you have the volume you simply multiply it by the density of Black Granite.

Edit: HOWEVER! I did notice something extremely interesting. It looks to me like that pillar does a little wobbling back and forth. Ahahahahahahaha.
http://www.math-prof.com/AreaVolume/Hexagon.aspx put 270 into that to get the surface area of the hexagon. Thats the base, and base*height=volume. x2.6 is the density used in all of these pillar feats.

General Kaliero

By the way, Moo.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
So Kain can't manipulate blood. It just looks like blood. Actually it's cherry kool-aid. These powers are an assumption based solely looks.
Don't be a troll, eh?

MooCowofJustice

K. But it was funny, right?

CosmicComet

Nope. Try harder bruh. :-P

The Scenario

Originally posted by Burning thought
No problem honey, we will probably be still at it when your done....xxx

You're so sweet. Anyway, I don't feel like arguing now but I'll go ahead and arm whoever is arguing with some evidence.
v3FSsNA78iI
1:50, Ganondorf shows an attack that hits instantly in cutscene.

InebpNm7juk
The two pillars Link throws. First one is ten seconds in, the second is at 4:17.

S0A7EsrIGk4
Since there are actually three pillars, here's the third one at 7:20.

3TkazDMURlE
6:05, Link lowers a stone staircase with the Megaton Hammer. At 6:40, he hits the giant stone pillar Screampast gave the pictures of earlier.

Ap0io293r8E
Just in case there was any question of the Lens of Truth seeing invisible things.

NCpeOwOjaYE
Here the Mirror Shield displays the ability to both reflects beams but absorb magical attacks and throw them back.

MooCowofJustice

You didn't need to do that. I was just gonna continue the actual argument tomorrow.

CosmicComet

Scenario, I demand you give up your battle with Quanchi for this thread.

This thread is suppurior

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Scenario, I demand you give up your battle with Quanchi for this thread.

This thread is suppurior Neh... It's really just a bunch of spite against characters with no chance. Mother is featless, even BT admits Link wins, same with the Archdemon and stuff.

And then there's this thread. It's just more of the same, Raziel got a shiney new strength feat, but it really only comes out to 320kj, which isn't that impressive. erm

He's still slower without the tools to fight Link, or the power to kill him.

CosmicComet

what's the other big thread he's in? Dragonage vs Lok?

BloodRain

Must be memory loss. Links physical resistance is..?

Also may be a reason to show that he's not resistant to TK..

Burning thought

Originally posted by The Scenario
You're so sweet. Anyway, I don't feel like arguing now but I'll go ahead and arm whoever is arguing with some evidence.
v3FSsNA78iI
1:50, Ganondorf shows an attack that hits instantly in cutscene.

InebpNm7juk
The two pillars Link throws. First one is ten seconds in, the second is at 4:17.

S0A7EsrIGk4
Since there are actually three pillars, here's the third one at 7:20.

3TkazDMURlE
6:05, Link lowers a stone staircase with the Megaton Hammer. At 6:40, he hits the giant stone pillar Screampast gave the pictures of earlier.

Ap0io293r8E
Just in case there was any question of the Lens of Truth seeing invisible things.

NCpeOwOjaYE
Here the Mirror Shield displays the ability to both reflects beams but absorb magical attacks and throw them back.

Ok first video, why? it just shows a slow charge up that Link could not do anything against, or attempt to dodge (slow reaction time) and then he screeches in pain as it hits him.....

Ive seen the pillars.

I thought there was something screwy here, he does not lift or move it with pure strength at all. He just bashes whats literally a small piece stuck in that chamber and it drops.

I dont understand the "invisability" part, whats invisibile? for all I know their just illusions.

Raziel does not use projectiles of magic. He uses Area attacks mostly. Also Raziel would just toss Link aside with TK.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Neh... It's really just a bunch of spite against characters with no chance. Mother is featless, even BT admits Link wins, same with the Archdemon and stuff.

And then there's this thread. It's just more of the same, Raziel got a shiney new strength feat, but it really only comes out to 320kj, which isn't that impressive. erm

He's still slower without the tools to fight Link, or the power to kill him.

Theres yet a single durability feat on the table for link so I dont know where the "without the power to kill him" comes from, nor a speed feat.

This fight for Raziel (or Kain if the thread comes up) is just a simple "TK" into place, then slash....easy thread is easy, spitez! big grin

The Scenario

I said I wasn't going to argue, BT, so why do you insist on it? But I guess I'm obligated to answer your questions. I'll not be answering for a little while after this.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ok first video, why? it just shows a slow charge up that Link could not do anything against, or attempt to dodge (slow reaction time) and then he screeches in pain as it hits him.....

If you're asking why I posted it, it was to establish the travel speed of Ganondorf's attacks. Since we know that Adult Link is capable of reflecting that attack, what little Child Link does is irrelevant, though it does establish some durability fo Link even as a child.

I believe you asked for another look at them earlier in the thread.

Ya, and it's quite large and stuck in place, and Link moves it with the bashing. Bashing = pure strength.

Bongo Bongo's torso becomes invisible in the boss fight. Why would you say it was an illusion? An illusion is seeing something that isn't really there, invisibility is becoming not visible.

He uses his TK as a projectile quite often. How strong is Raziel's TK, though?

I guess I'll take this one, too. Link has some durability in the Ganondorf scene, above. As well as this:
2AZXahcwYDA
2:50. Ganondorf disintegrates the entire top side of his castle and Link is unharmed. Also the thing at 1:15.
This fight for Raziel (or Kain if the thread comes up) is just a simple "TK" into place, then slash....easy thread is easy, spitez! big grin

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by BloodRain
Must be memory loss. Links physical resistance is..?

Also may be a reason to show that he's not resistant to TK.. Well, if 3.5+ gigajoules dosn't break your arm, 300mj isn't gnna hurt you at all.

Also, it's been demnstrated multiple times that the sword defends against this. u.u

Burning thought

Originally posted by The Scenario
I said I wasn't going to argue, BT, so why do you insist on it? But I guess I'm obligated to answer your questions. I'll not be answering for a little while after this.

If you're asking why I posted it, it was to establish the travel speed of Ganondorf's attacks. Since we know that Adult Link is capable of reflecting that attack, what little Child Link does is irrelevant, though it does establish some durability fo Link even as a child.

I believe you asked for another look at them earlier in the thread.

Ya, and it's quite large and stuck in place, and Link moves it with the bashing. Bashing = pure strength.

Bongo Bongo's torso becomes invisible in the boss fight. Why would you say it was an illusion? An illusion is seeing something that isn't really there, invisibility is becoming not visible.

He uses his TK as a projectile quite often. How strong is Raziel's TK, though?

I guess I'll take this one, too. Link has some durability in the Ganondorf scene, above. As well as this:
2AZXahcwYDA
2:50. Ganondorf disintegrates the entire top side of his castle and Link is unharmed. Also the thing at 1:15.
This fight for Raziel (or Kain if the thread comes up) is just a simple "TK" into place, then slash....easy thread is easy, spitez! big grin

When did I ask you to? I quoted your evidence and said why it was redundant.

Its ruined by the fact like a lot of obvious LoZ attacks it takes ages to charge.

Yes sorry, I looked for them myself after that but thank you anyway.

Not really, its just bashing on something whos heavier piecie is below, Link is simply workin with the weight thats below the structure he struck.

Can you give me the timing? I said it could be an illusion because the wiki says thats what the gmaes tellls us it uncovers.

If its TK your talking about then its not magic/elemental what the sheld shows us. His movement allows him to move Link sized people, and his blasts/shots are capable of shunting the 50 ton blocks.

But neither of those is durability? if he breaks the top half of the castle fine, but if it was not directed at Link not that interesting. Not sure waves of darkness are gaugable.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Well, if 3.5+ gigajoules dosn't break your arm, the ground your standing on, the area it lands to much degree then its likely redundant in physics explanation and therefore unsuable as a feat.

Also, it's been demnstrated multiple times that the sword defends against this. u.u

I added some bits to the first line thats important.

And, no its not, otherwise people would not ask so much when. Your likely hinting at the sort of thing you used to such as "Ganon or Zant did not use it at point A, therefore Link is immune!".

BloodRain

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Well, if 3.5+ gigajoules dosn't break your arm, 300mj isn't gnna hurt you at all.

Also, it's been demnstrated multiple times that the sword defends against this. u.u

I find fault in that. Not the strength of Ganon this time but what got hit. All the energy/force of the strike went into hitting Link's sword, held by the Golden Gauntlets. As we know they make Link's arms stronger, and there'd be some real issues if the GGs couldn't give as much as they take so his arms would be able to take the force. Not the rest of his body though.

Just want to see something. First off there's the Shadow Crystal Fog being able to forcefully change him, before you said it doesn't count but its based off the Shadow Crystal that is 'evil magic' and 'if you touch it, you'll turn back into a beast!' So the MS in cannon can't stop that evil magic from changing him. Secondly Scenario said that the MS deems Midna evil for being Twili so her powers are classed as evil magic to the MS. She can still use those powers after Link obtains the MS to teleport him, even against his will as shown at the end of the game.

Arguendo~

Burning thought

Not only that, but when Ganon hits the MS out of Links hand, thats not any great strength at all because the sword only goes a few meters. A light sword going only a few meters? clearly Ganons not as strong as the Golden Gauntlets, nowhere near.

MooCowofJustice

One instance. Pfft, needs consistency.

ScreamPaste

Gameplay obstacle over-written by canon cutscene and the fact that Ganon's own greater power cannot transform Link, why should some fog be able to do so?

The sword is sentient, I don't recall Moo making that argument, but I don't recall Midna being evil, either. An act of self sacrifice is about as good as it gets.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not only that, but when Ganon hits the MS out of Links hand, thats not any great strength at all because the sword only goes a few meters. A light sword going only a few meters? clearly Ganons not as strong as the Golden Gauntlets, nowhere near.
You ignore: Link needed to go get the sword back. If it flew out of the country the LoZ series would have ended before the first games could chronologicly happen in the time-line.

Scene demonstrates Ganon over-powering the golden gauntlets, and the force of the blow not damaging Link. Raziel cannot physicly harm someone in that range of durability.

Burning thought

I am sorry but your assumption is not a fact. You claiming it just didnt because it would be bad for the plot does not counter the point because you could never prove thats why it did not happen.

He does not overpower anything really, its quite ambigious. He launches a light sword a few meters with a glancing blow. Also what range? technically nothing hits Link, its a glancing blow.

MooCowofJustice

So there's a thought going around now that Raziel pushed like...300 tons? How'd he find the footing for that? Sounds unrealistic and illogical to me.

Burning thought

Raziel lifted up 700 tons. Taking into account was Gk said in off-topic about opposite/equel forces and considering Raziel is a supernaturally enhanced vampire where strength is part of his power set throughout the games ( a very important part of his power set) then its logical.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
Raziel lifted up 700 tons. Taking into account was Gk said in off-topic about opposite/equel forces and considering Raziel is a supernaturally enhanced vampire where strength is part of his power set throughout the games ( a very important part of his power set) then its logical. haermm and it's ILLogical when a hero chosen by the gods with a peice of the triforce does it.... Right? Bias. -.-Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
So there's a thought going around now that Raziel pushed like...300 tons? How'd he find the footing for that? Sounds unrealistic and illogical to me.
Raziel toppled over a very tall 700 ton mass, putting his strength at 300 kilojoules, is not a 300 ton overhead lift. stick out tongue

Burning thought

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
haermm and it's ILLogical when a hero chosen by the gods with a peice of the triforce does it.... Right? Bias. -.-
Raziel toppled over a very tall 700 ton mass, putting his strength at 300 kilojoules, is not a 300 ton overhead lift. stick out tongue

Not at all bias is it when Divine beings such as Kratos, Demons such as Dante or vampires are canonically and logically evaluated as strong/fast etc throughout the game. A hero "chosen by the Gods" is not a feat, spiecies or logical connection to strength which is another reason why linky pulling what Bardock said in the other thread as "pulling feats out ouf his ass" is not logical.

What Raziel did was arguably harder, simply without the required durability/balance to hold something above himself. He still pulled its whole weight of 700 tons off the ground and sent it to the floor. Only Raziel "does not need gauntlets" and does it without sighs/grunts of effort smile

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not at all bias is it when Divine beings such as Kratos, Demons such as Dante or vampires are canonically and logically evaluated as strong/fast etc throughout the game. A hero "chosen by the Gods" is not a feat, spiecies or logical connection to strength which is another reason why linky pulling what Bardock said in the other thread as "pulling feats out ouf his ass" is not logical.

What Raziel did was arguably harder, simply without the required durability/balance to hold something above himself. He still pulled its whole weight of 700 tons off the ground and sent it to the floor. Only Raziel "does not need gauntlets" and does it without sighs/grunts of effort smile

Link through out all of OoT is doing superhuman shit. The Triforce is not just some shiney symbol, it gives power to it's wielder. Link never pulls these feats out of his ass, either, and in OoT especially, they are not for the rule of funny.

What Raziel did was give gravity a hand. He toppled it, this is not sufficient for an overhead lift of 300 tons. no expression

Burning thought

Show me where theres any specification? the LoK, DMC, GoW games clearly outline how the spiecies of God, Demon, Vampire etc is superior to a human or otherwise has special traits throughout. Your assuming the triforce of Courage gives Link strength? what brings you to that conclusion?

Give gravity a hand? gravity was against him while he quickly and easily lifted it up off the ground. The only time gravity gave him a hand was after Raziel flipped it quickly over. This does not discredit the fact he can lift up with ease 700 tons with a single movement.

CosmicComet

Let's not bullshit any longer here.

I saw the pillar throwing again. Link didn't struggle a single bit. He lifted the thing off the ground just as easy as Raziel merely tilted up one side of it.

And then Link threw it. Quite Easily.

Using the grunts(not even grunts, more like karate-esque shouts), which he does for everything, is a reach to say it was a struggle seeing as his actions show no struggle at all.

Hey. I guess Link just likes to make sounds when he lifts and tosses pillars. More power to him.

ScreamPaste

Ganondorf himself mentions the power of the triforce of courage, play the game. Even if he hadn't, Link still displays consistent super-human attributes, therefore, he's super-human.

Go do the math for yourself. haermm Since you're soooo good at it. He toppled it, flipped it the way two men who cannot lift a car, can flip it over. Raziel NEVER lifted it off of the ground, never supported it's whole weight, he tipped it. Lifted a portion of it's weight part way off the ground, and gravity did the rest.

Burning thought

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Let's not bullshit any longer here.

I saw the pillar throwing again. Link didn't struggle a single bit. He lifted the thing off the ground just as easy as Raziel merely tilted up one side of it.

And then Link threw it. Quite Easily.

Using the grunts(not even grunts, more like karate-esque shouts), which he does for everything, is a reach to say it was a struggle seeing as his actions show no struggle at all.

Hey. I guess Link just likes to make sounds when he lifts and tosses pillars. More power to him.

He rubbed his hands together like he does when he lifts something clearly heavy for him and he makes a strain, thats audiable and your excuse is that it was "karate-esque" shouts? roll eyes (sarcastic)

I dsiagree, it sounds to me just like a sound a guy straining to lift something. The speed he lifts it at supports me, he lifts it slowly at around 2000 joules. Raziel quickly and easily without a sound bent low like Link did to pick his block up but instead of slowly lifting it, he throws it over.

If Link could do it easily why would he lift it first? why did he not go from crouching position to lift it and toss it from there? logically he cant.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganondorf himself mentions the power of the triforce of courage, play the game. Even if he hadn't, Link still displays consistent super-human attributes, therefore, he's super-human.

Go do the math for yourself. haermm Since you're soooo good at it. He toppled it, flipped it the way two men who cannot lift a car, can flip it over. Raziel NEVER lifted it off of the ground, never supported it's whole weight, he tipped it. Lifted a portion of it's weight part way off the ground, and gravity did the rest.

You did not in any way counter my arguments. You simply claimed Ganondorf apprently mensions its power, which is what you said before.

I dont need to, Bloodrain did it for me wink

MooCowofJustice

A grunt does not signify anything. Soccer players grunt when they kick a soccer ball, football players grunt when they kick it, baseball players grunt when they throw it. That doesn't mean it's a difficult action.

And hell BT, have you even watched the damn video in the last year? Personally, I'm doubting it.

Burning thought

It does not have to be difficult, it shows their putting effort into something. Link would not grunt if it was effortless and fast like Raziels. Also a noise a soccer player would make when kicking a ball does not sound like what Link makes when he lifts something anyway, he makes an audiable sound of discomfort/stress.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
He rubbed his hands together like he does when he lifts something clearly heavy for him and he makes a strain, thats audiable and your excuse is that it was "karate-esque" shouts? roll eyes (sarcastic)

. What? your not watching the scene at all are you? The Obelisk is standing straight, and Raziel puts his hand under and takes the whole lot of it apart from perhaps one edge off the ground, thats all of its weight. He does it quickly and easily. Gravity only knocks it over after Raziel lifts it over enough for it to fall, that does not discredit that 700 tons was just taken and pulled over by Raziel. BloodRain mathed the weight, I haven't bothered since I have no reason to, he did not math Raziel's strength. I did, using the weight of 700 tons for the pillar, Raziel is still only 300 KJ in strength. Less than a thousandth of Link's strength.

Also, quit joking, 2kj wouldn't even budge the pillar Link threw.

A grunt only confirmed Link is actually taking the physical straing of the pillar, proving he's physicly adequate to handle it.

Burning thought

Show me your calculation. a 700 ton object being bested by Raziels strength by him pulling its weight off the ground does not lose 400 tons just because gravity helps it once its tilted. The object is still pulled over, Link would not even be able to get it up, infact even if he could he would struggle considering 650 tons was slow and strained him.

Your right, it was 75kj, my bad.

Note physical strain, unlike Raziel who has no such problems, he just grabs it by the bottom and sends it over.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me your calculation. a 700 ton object being bested by Raziels strength by him pulling its weight off the ground does not lose 400 tons just because gravity helps it once its tilted. The object is still pulled over, Link would not even be able to get it up, infact even if he could he would struggle considering 650 tons was slow and strained him.

Your right, it was 75kj, my bad.

Note physical strain, unlike Raziel who has no such problems, he just grabs it by the bottom and sends it over.
The pillar Link threw? Be feats Link could beat Raziel to death with the obelisk Raziel only managed to topple, without ever supporting it's full weight. My calculation of Raziel at 320kj of strength actually DEPENDS on him lifting the full weight off the ground, which he never does. haermm But, fine, here:

K = 1/2mv^2

m = 635029.317
v = 1

IE, K = 1/2 635029.317 * 1 ^2

K = 317 514.65899982

317 kj.

CosmicComet

-He rubs his hands. Ok. What does this signify other than a point you wish to magnify to mean more than what the end results show? Nothing.

-He lifted it. Off the ground. Easily. There was no wavering in the lifting speed, nor did his arms buckle from the strain. Raziel didn't make a sound, but then he has hardly any battle grunts to recycle in the first place. Also, Raziel's tipping over and pushing took a full 2 seconds whereas Link LIFTED the entire thing off the ground in a second of him reach down to grab it. Link is operating at a greater strength level here as Raziel is only tilting up (and by definition this means only part of the weight is being operated on) of a similar sized object.

-The sounds mean nothing when the visuals take precedence. It is a reach. Hell, his 'grunt' when he threw it was even less than the 'grunt' when he initiated the action. That tells us the necessary strain he required was nothing great. You can try get somewhere with this pointless deconstruction i.e. 'why didn't he just toss it from the start', but it is just that, pointless.

There is no contradiction anywhere, there is nothing that requires that he had to toss it from the start. I suppose it's just Nintendo's way of demonstrating that Link is 'building up strength'. The simple explanations that don't even need to be mentioned in the first place, such as mine, are the ones that are accepted. Simply a general tenet.

Also, the 'grunt' argument is pretty bunk anyway as its not consistent. In Scenario's video, he makes two different initial sounds when he lifts up the two pillars, the similarity is that both times they are brief unstraining combat sounds, these are not equal to the sorting long, teeth gritting groan associated with weight struggling.The only consistent thing about them is that the short sound he makes as he's tossing it.

-There is no conclusion to make but that Link's feat is clearly the better one.

Burning thought

How can velocity be 1?

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
How can velocity be 1?
Would you like me to use a more accurate decimal, such as 0.5? no expression

(Badly shrinking Raziel's strength)

Burning thought

Originally posted by CosmicComet
-He rubs his hands. Ok. What does this signify other than a point you wish to magnify to mean more than what the end results show? Nothing.

-He lifted it. Off the ground. Easily. There was no wavering in the lifting speed, nor did his arms buckle from the strain. Raziel didn't make a sound, but then he has hardly any battle grunts to recycle in the first place. Also, Raziel's tipping over and pushing took a full 2 seconds whereas Link LIFTED the entire thing off the ground in a second of him reach down to grab it. Link is operating at a greater strength level here as Raziel is only tilting up (and by definition this means only part of the weight is being operated on) of a similar sized object.

-The sounds mean nothing when the visuals take precedence. It is a reach. Hell, his 'grunt' when he threw it was even less than the 'grunt' when he initiated the action. That tells us the necessary strain he required was nothing great. You can try get somewhere with this pointless deconstruction i.e. 'why didn't he just toss it from the start', but it is just that, pointless.

There is no contradiction anywhere, there is nothing that requires that he had to toss it from the start. I suppose it's just Nintendo's way of demonstrating that Link is 'building up strength'. The simple explanations that don't even need to be mentioned in the first place, such as mine, are the ones that are accepted. Simply a general tenet.

Also, the 'grunt' argument is pretty bunk anyway as its not consistent. In Scenario's video, he makes two different initial sounds when he lifts up the two pillars, the similarity is that both times they are brief unstraining combat sounds, these are not equal to the sorting long, teeth gritting groan associated with weight struggling.The only consistent thing about them is that the short sound he makes as he's tossing it.

-There is no conclusion to make but that Link's feat is clearly the better one.

- Why would someone rub their hands together unless its something heavy? its a typical action.

- Define easily? it took him several seconds to get it less than half his height above the ground. Thats not easy, he used 75kj of force which is very little considering the numbers screampaste wants to use, such as 3.5gj. If he could lift it easily, it would be quicker and easier and without the grunt because he would not have had any effort.

-I think its a reach to ignore the grunts or call them "karate like" when its at the perfect timing for him to feel strain. Not exactly pointless, the developers have him rubbing his hands, grunting AND slowly lifting it all indications of high effort.

Based on a throw that previous evidence suggests as impossible.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Would you like me to use a more accurate decimal, such as 0.5? no expression

(Badly shrinking Raziel's strength)

It would be far quicker than that, Links is at 0.5 and he does not move the pillar as quickly as Raziel.

ScreamPaste

mariofacepalm

BloodRain

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Gameplay obstacle over-written by canon cutscene and the fact that Ganon's own greater power cannot transform Link, why should some fog be able to do so?

The sword is sentient, I don't recall Moo making that argument, but I don't recall Midna being evil, either. An act of self sacrifice is about as good as it gets.
A canon cutscene has Midna telling Link that just touching the Crystal will transform him, which is proven that it can by using it or going into the fog made of it.

IMX1eisEhFY
1:10 and 1:18 ^what the fog is made of. Thats one canon instance saying that it can still effect him to theories of how it doesn't.

Scenario said it a few times in his posts, and her tribes magic is evil.

So Link's body cant take the same force as his arms?

Burning thought

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
mariofacepalm

You must have had Raziels velocity at 1 meter/1 second to get 1, which is false. What did you math Raziel as? a dwarf?

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
You must have had Raziels velocity at 1 meter/1 second to get 1, which is false. What did you math Raziel as? a dwarf? Righto, next you'll be telling me he threw the pillar. no expression

RE: Blaxican

edit

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
edit GJ, Blax. stick out tongue

You are now a part of this shit storm.

Burning thought

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Righto, next you'll be telling me he threw the pillar. no expression

Yeh you see thats false, he lifted it above his own height and it stood for less than a second before he pushed it. The time he took to lift it to above his own height (6 feet say) was around a second.

Raziel did not lift it one meter, in one second.

BloodRain

Lifts it to 2/3~ his height in 0.25~s. (quick look)

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yeh you see thats false, he lifted it above his own height and it stood for less than a second before he pushed it. The time he took to lift it to above his own height (6 feet say) was around a second.

Raziel did not lift it one meter, in one second. I checked before I did the math. smile

Burning thought

I did this, Bloodrain figuires next to my own.

Jouls for Razels block launching

635029.318 kilograms

1.92024 meter (me) 1.12 meter (Bloodrain)

1 second (me) 0.25 second (bloodrain)

Velocity= 1.92024 (me) 4.48 (Bloodrain)

Velocity^= 20.0704 (Bloodrain)

3.6873216576 x 635029.318 (me)

20.0704 x 635029.318 (Bloodrain)

2341557.3574723575168 (me) 12745292.4239872 (Bloodrain)

1170778.6787361787584 kinetic energy, jouls. (me) 6372646.2119936 (Bloodrain)

Considering Bloodrains workings are typically good, and in no part to the fact his figuire is far higher than what I got, Raziels jouls are 6.4 million jouls rounded up. So much for 300 kj from Dwarf Raziel erm

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I checked before I did the math. smile

OBSERVE.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/Razielpillar.jpg
Image 1. "NYEEEEAH."
Image 2. 3:31, he begins to lift.
Image 3. 3:32, He's moved it... 2 meters? NO WAIT, LOOK AT IMAGE 4!
Image 4. 3:32.5, He STANDS UP. He was still crouched. Tadah. 1. meter per second.

You also fail to realise he NEVER supports it's entire weight, only a fraction for the frist second before gravity does the rest.

Burning thought

It was already lifted up before .32, your image shows Raziel getting up while holding the block steady. he doe not push it over until after that. The block using Bloodrains numbers are still better off. And thats a contradiction, he does for a fraction, but NEVER?

Youve been proven wrong by the source, and yourself it seems. All Gravity does is pulls it over after Raziel does the final push.

ScreamPaste

From the beginning of 3:31 to the beginning of 3:32, the only time he's actually moving it under his own power, he moves it 1 meter. at 3:32.5 gravity already has it.

My numbers are accurate, 300 kj strength for Raziel.

BloodRain

Originally posted by BloodRain
A canon cutscene has Midna telling Link that just touching the Crystal will transform him, which is proven that it can by using it or going into the fog made of it.

IMX1eisEhFY
1:10 and 1:18 ^what the fog is made of. Thats one canon instance saying that it can still effect him to theories of how it doesn't.

Scenario said it a few times in his posts, and her tribes magic is evil.

So Link's body cant take the same force as his arms?
Just 'cos >.>

Burning thought

He starts after 3:31, and finishes before 3:32 which is when he stands to push the block. Youve cleverly timed your taking of the images above I admit, but Raziel takes some time before he pushes it over. 0.25-0.30 sounds accurate now I look at it again.

I dont know where your getting 1 meter from, where you basing this on? Even when he stands, the block is not far below the top of his head, afterall his hands are above his head which is where he pushes it.

Raziel: 6.3 million.

Link: 75kj

Raziel wins strength contest...next!

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by BloodRain
Just 'cos >.> Overridden by the fact the sword's already over-powered it, and as I keep telling you, the sword is sentient. no expression

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
He starts after 3:31, and finishes before 3:32 which is when he stands to push the block. Youve cleverly timed your taking of the images above I admit, but Raziel takes some time before he pushes it over. 0.25-0.30 sounds accurate now I look at it again.

I dont know where your getting 1 meter from, where you basing this on? Even when he stands, the block is not far below the top of his head, afterall his hands are above his head which is where he pushes it.

Raziel: 6.3 million.

Link: 75kj

Raziel wins strength contest...next! Lol'd, no. Go through it yourself. 0.2 seconds, when I have screenshots IN THREAD, and CC already confirmed with me he takes a full 2 seconds to do this thing, PROVING otherwise? haermm You're delusional.

1 meter per second, and I'm being generous by using the pillar's full weight (which he NEVER supports), in my math.

And here's where it gets hilarious, you actually claimed Raziel is stronger, against cutscenes, screenshots, and math. haermm GJ.

BloodRain

But that statement happened 'after' he got the MS, it only took it off but can still effect as said and shown afterwards.

So can canonly be effected by evil magic and his body cant take as much force as his arms...

Burning thought

I just did and your taking liberty with the fact in about a second Raziel gets up to push the block which is where your final screenshot displays. Youve even taken a screen shot of a failed attempt as if that was part of the animation/cutscene.

Yeh contradiction, your pulling 1 meter out of your ass despite it being around Raziels hands (over his head) and its full weight has to be moved by Raziel, otherwise he would not have been able to lift it up.

Cutscenes? No, I am using the same cutscene to prove otherwise, combine that with the fact I have played it myself your the one claiming Raziel is weaker without game knowledge vs cutscenes and math other than your own.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by BloodRain
But that statement happened 'after' he got the MS, it only took it off but can still effect as said and shown afterwards.

So can canonly be effected by evil magic and his body cant take as much force as his arms... His body clearly can, as it supported the pillar with the same ease his arms did.

Also, Midna's not omniscient, and we've already seen the sword > that specific curse, Link can /allow/ himself to be changed, and Ganon > fog, so ... Yeah. Gameplay obstacle is gameplay. no expression

You ready to let BT know his math is flawed yet?

Burning thought

Originally posted by BloodRain
But that statement happened 'after' he got the MS, it only took it off but can still effect as said and shown afterwards.

So can canonly be effected by evil magic and his body cant take as much force as his arms...

Raziel does not use evil magic but yes, I think it was obvious from the beginning of this thread that regardless of Links strength, hes not taking a single hit from Raziel either, infact with Raziels claws+Strength, Links going to need a hellava feat of durability.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
Raziel does not use evil magic but yes, I think it was obvious from the beginning of this thread that regardless of Links strength, hes not taking a single hit from Raziel either, infact with Raziels claws+Strength, Links going to need a hellava feat of durability. Already supplied, Raziel cannot physicly harm Link, see Ganon disarming Link. Nor is he quick enough to land a blow.

Burning thought

I cant see how force enough to only send a light sword a few meters>>Raziels strength lol......

hes also far quicker than Link.

Links got next to no speed or durability feats of worth or note.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
I cant see how force enough to only send a light sword a few meters>>Raziels strength lol......

hes also far quicker than Link.

Links got next to no speed or durability feats of worth or note. Translation: BT plugs his ears and covers his eyes whenever someone provides evidence that doesn't benefit LoK. u.u

Burning thought

Since when did you provide evidence at all for durability or speed? lol, I plug my ears when you talk about assumptions, fanon and illogical fallacious opinions sure but there has been no evidence.

Bloodrain have you seen this durability yet? or this speed? if Paste refuses to debate then perhaps you have seen it?

ScreamPaste

Ganondorf fight: Tennis with lightning bolts. Ganon fight: Disarmed without his arms snapping off.

Burning thought

Thats not evidence, thats you claiming something. And I countered your "Ganon fight" claim with how the sword which is extremely light only goes a few meters distance. Furthermore its not gaugable, we dont even know if Link got cought off-guard with that glancing blow, or if the gauntlets are armoured enough to protect him from that kind of damage on his arms like Bloodrain pointed out.

The lightning bolts thing is not a feat, its your assumption.

Also, how do I make screenshots? I admit i used to know but now I am trying, I cant get it to work goddamit....

ScreamPaste

Already covered: Link needed to retrieve it.
No, it's canon fact he shoosts lightning, and canon fact Link reflects it with his sword. You're assuming otherwise out of bias.

BloodRain

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
His body clearly can, as it supported the pillar with the same ease his arms did.

Also, Midna's not omniscient, and we've already seen the sword > that specific curse, Link can /allow/ himself to be changed, and Ganon > fog, so ... Yeah. Gameplay obstacle is gameplay. no expression

You ready to let BT know his math is flawed yet?

Doubt his body can is at a 700ton level if his arms without enhancements aren't. Ganon hits the magically enhanced arms, his body needs its own feat.

Its not a matter if he allows it or not or Midna wouldn't of warned him not to touch it.

What math, been purposely trying to ignore most of what you two have been saying with calcs :3

Burning thought

Thats an assumption from you, an assumption that the sole reason it was not launched across hyrule was because the developers made this exception. Thats not evidence, my evidence is that it actually happened. Maybe I can argue Link only lifts up pillars because "has to get past them for the plot!"? if that kind of logic works, double edge.

No its not, when is it said its lightning? also Cole shoots lightning, both natural and in orb form, you cant just assume its not as fast as you want it to be simply because a player cant react to lightning. DMC has bullets constantly fired and their not slow orbs moving towards you, but players cant react to bullets! eek!

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by BloodRain
Doubt his body can is at a 700ton level if his arms without enhancements aren't. Ganon hits the magically enhanced arms, his body needs its own feat.

Its not a matter if he allows it or not or Midna wouldn't of warned him not to touch it.

What math, been purposely trying to ignore most of what you two have been saying with calcs :3
Actually he is. As evidenced by the feat. Either the gauntlets improve his whole body, or his whole body was already ossim. Doesn't matter.

Midna is not omniscient, and this cutscene illustrates sword > curse.

Then why did you feed BT math on the last page? Go check. I proved 1 m/s, AND that he 300 kj is actually too much for Raz. >_> You gave BT calcs and commented on the speed of the lift, this is your mess, take responsibility.

Burning thought

or this comes under the "illogical" format, me and Bardock and agreed to in the other thread, where nothing is explained or mensioned and is unproportional to the rest of the game. But as I said, Ganons strength+sword= few meters.

Also to disprove your ridiculous shots youve taken, such as a failed animation in the first one, which is no wonder why someone would think it took 2 seconds rather than less than one:

Observe- Raziel before he begins to lift, but as hes ready at 3:31:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9852/razielobelisk1.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And this is the feat accomplished at 3:31:

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/108/razielobelisk2.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Ofc, being you and trying to downplay LoK you took images of a failed animation and at the end, took an image of him standing up as he pushes it away. I apologise for the size of the shots but at least they dont stretch the page.

BloodRain

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Actually he is. As evidenced by the feat. Either the gauntlets improve his whole body, or his whole body was already ossim. Doesn't matter.

Midna is not omniscient, and this cutscene illustrates sword > curse.

Then why did you feed BT math on the last page? Go check. I proved 1 m/s, AND that he 300 kj is actually too much for Raz. >_> You gave BT calcs and commented on the speed of the lift, this is your mess, take responsibility.
That only means his body can take 700 tons not ###Jouls that his arms can.

And later it proves that both forms can change him at will.

Like I said I wasnt reading it all. Truthly the pics drew me in like a moth to a flame `,` saw it and commented. And I only gave him calcs yesterday.
Responsibility? Id rather cause chaos and see how things play out. Was interesting to see how me calcing this started a thread, debate on off-topic and started off the toonforce thing happy

Edit: Size BT, size .__.

Burning thought

Yes I apologise for that, forgot about the size of the image. And as another note, Raziel is not crouching when he lifts it to its full height. Raziel is standing as soon as he pulls it above his waist.

CosmicComet

^It turned 3:32 as soon as he started pushing. Your second image was just timing it a fraction of a sec before that.

Burning thought

at 3:31 is before he even starts pulling it up. In my second image, hes already got it up, it turns 3:32 as he pushes it forwards. The most Raziel can take is perhaps half a second. I admit Raziel does not hold it his whole body height in that time, but Bloodrains number of 2/3 is more or less close enough.

ScreamPaste

lol@BT timing screenshots. It's a full second of motion. Period. 1 m/s.

Burning thought

Thats not what screenshots tell us period. It travels more than a meter and in less time than you want to belive.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

And here's where it gets hilarious, you actually claimed Raziel is weaker , against cutscenes, screenshots, game knowledge and two lots of math. haermm GJ.

CosmicComet

Gonna outdo BT with an EVEN BIGGAR SCREENCAPS TO BURST YOUR EYES WITH.

:-p

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8751/reavery.jpg

Dunno who this hurts or helps, just posting a more in-depth sequence of events. As we can see by the first 3:32 image, that is the moment when the weight first completely 'settles' on Raziel, as you can see Raziel's back is closer to us than in the last 3:31 image. And then he starts pushing.

Burning thought

But he has finished pulling it up by 3:31 in the 6th image, by 3:32, he starts to push forwards. 3:30 for you is even further before Raziel even starts pulling up on the obelisk than my one at 3:31 in the first image.

Raziels height he lifts and speed in which he pulls it up changes in comparison to Screampastes, whos measurements make Raziel a dwarf, and are slightly slower (full second, rather than a fraction as my shots show).

Why is this still being argued, its irrelevant until someone actually SHOWS Link taking any real damage. Raziel has a vast amount of power in his hands, Link currently has the durability to withstand something that can knock a light sword a few meters, anyone got a better feat?

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Burning thought
But he has finished pulling it up by 3:31 in the 6th image, by 3:32, he starts to push forwards. 3:30 for you is even further before Raziel even starts pulling up on the obelisk than my one at 3:31 in the first image.

Raziels height he lifts and speed in which he pulls it up changes in comparison to Screampastes, whos measurements make Raziel a dwarf, and are slightly slower (full second, rather than a fraction as my shots show). Both mine AND CC's shots show Raziel is crosuhed for the first portion, IE, it was only one meter, Raziel is not a dwarf, that is simply not his full height.

Your screenshots were intentionally taken to make it appear faster than it is. Period.

BloodRain

Wouldnt the last 3:31 be him changing from clean to jerk?

Just noticed that Wolf Link shows more personality then TP Link mmm

Burning thought

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Both mine AND CC's shots show Raziel is crosuhed for the first portion, IE, it was only one meter, Raziel is not a dwarf, that is simply not his full height.

Your screenshots were intentionally taken to make it appear faster than it is. Period.

laughing

, wut? then perhaps your screenshots were taken to make it appear slower than it was period...your making daft assumptions period in more than just this sequence.

CC shots show he was crouched in the first portion, but thats not the case when hes pulled it up fully. Its over half his height. Not 1 meter.....

CosmicComet

the first 3:32 shot is when the weight settles on him, seeing as his back is closest to the camera in that shot as the weight is leaning on him. only in the second 3:32 shot does he come forward to push.

Burning thought

But hes still finished by 3:31 as my second image and your 6th one shows. The pushing part is irrelevant as by then hes stopped pulling it higher. Problem is, we cant see fully how high he takes it, because he still pulls it higher slightly after standing up, so it may be over 2/3 his full height. "sigh"

But as I said...

Originally posted by Burning thought

Why is this still being argued, its irrelevant until someone actually SHOWS Link taking any real damage. Raziel has a vast amount of power in his hands, Link currently has the durability to withstand something that can knock a light sword a few meters, anyone got a better feat?

CosmicComet

My point is 3:32 is when he's absolutely done lifting.
The last 3:31 is just a hairsplit away from turning 3:32 anyway.

Basically, we need some exact timing breakdown to be accurate. Someone get it down to decimals or some shit because I don't care enough to. lol.

Burning thought

Its the same for 3:30 for the beginning of the lift, it only just goes to 3:31 when he begins lifting it. Theres certainly less than a second in the whole action. You would have to use some special software to get it into smaller decimals.

Also you realise Raziels strength is one thing, but it amplified by the PSI of the tip of his claw is something else entirely...

CosmicComet

I said nothing about the 3:30 mark. That's simply when he finally finishes crouching down.

Burning thought

I know but I did, looking through, near the end of 3:30 hes just about to lift. The time between him lifting it is like 3:308

Edit:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2873/razielobelisk3.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is a good image. it shows us Raziel almost at his full height before pushing. This is still 3:31, so therefore the next image (my old one) happens the camera angle just changes and he goes into a push.

Raziel is pretty much at full height here and the obelisk is nearly up to his mid-lower spine if not nearer his elbow/chest at this point. So Bloodrains calculations are perhaps quite clear despite the fact he only had a look at it lol.

The Scenario

While it is irrelevant to the conversation, I would just like to say that if Link was immune to Zant's crystal with the Master Sword, he would be unable to change forms at all. The process goes: Link touches it, changes, does whatever as a wolf, then changes back at will. The dark fog does the same thing, but only as long as Link is touching it; once he leaves he's free to change. So it seems that effects only work if they are constantly in effect, as if they are instant,the moment the pressure's off, Link can go back. BUT, there's a problem there. Link can stand, untransformed, in the Twilight Realm itself. It could be that the Twilight Realm's effect wasn't enough until the dark fog was introduced, which is possible since Zant's crystal was a more concentrated and solidified version of the dark fog. There's also the Fused Shadows and Mirror Shard to consider, as Link resisted their effects as well. I would say Link has passive resistence to average transformation effects, and active resistence to stronger effects that get past that resistance and are instant. The only thing Link has trouble with, then, is a powerful effect that gets past normal restistence, and is also a constant effect that does not lessen, or else Link could remove it.

I wonder if the Triforce of Courage would remove any transformation effects and just turn Link into a wolf regardless of the intention...?