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H2h only, who wins?

8/10 Lady Shiva floats like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Her techniques and speed will overcome T'Challa in H2H.

Shuri gets rape w/o suit.

Shuri is beaten.

Originally posted by vansonbee
8/10 Lady Shiva floats like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Her techniques and speed will overcome T'Challa in H2H.

Shuri gets rape w/o suit.

T'challa's speed should be better (due to the effects of the herb) and his techniques are at least good enough to go H2H with the likes of cap and iron fist.

in fact, the iron fist fight is a perfect example of why a h2h fight with BP would not go well for her.

Shiva wins somewhat more than not vs T'challa, and of course beats Shuri.

BP

Originally posted by Q99
Shiva wins somewhat more than not vs T'challa, and of course beats Shuri.

Shiva.

Panther has fought Steve Rogers to a standstill in a 3 day long fight, he's fought on even keel with Ironfist, Blood lusted Ironfist at that. He beats Shivas ass goddamn it, just like Fist and just like regular DD and just like Rogers would.

Is this female Panther?

Shiva if this is T'Challa.

Good fight. Probably give very slight majority to T'Challa due to his physical superiority.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Panther has fought Steve Rogers to a standstill in a 3 day long fight, he's fought on even keel with Ironfist, Blood lusted Ironfist at that. He beats Shivas ass goddamn it, just like Fist and just like regular DD and just like Rogers would.

Scans or issue number?

T'Challa wins. Currently it would be even easier due to his further enhanced stats. I remember reading he can lift somewhere in the area of a few tons now and is more powerful than ever.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
T'Challa wins. Currently it would be even easier due to his further enhanced stats. I remember reading he can lift somewhere in the area of a few tons now and is more powerful than ever.


This will likely change when he becomes Daredevil.

.....What?

Black Panther wins.

Shiva.

Shiva

Originally posted by Juk3n
Panther has fought Steve Rogers to a standstill in a 3 day long fight, he's fought on even keel with Ironfist, Blood lusted Ironfist at that. He beats Shivas ass goddamn it, just like Fist and just like regular DD and just like Rogers would.

Any proof that both Cap and normal DD should beat Shiva who is considered one of the top MA in DC and has move reading abilities? If BP wins it's because of his enhanced physique/tech.

Originally posted by Lunacyde
Any proof that both Cap and normal DD should beat Shiva who is considered one of the top MA in DC and has move reading abilities?

DD has 1) better move/environment/biological/kinetic reading abilities then her, 2) is a man, 3) is as fast or faster 4) is considered one fthe top MA's on marvel earth 5) is more agile 6) is stronger.

As for cap, if you don't accept "because he's Steve-Frickin-Rogers" as acceptable proof of superiority then theres no hope for you, and in that case should apply reasons 2 through 6 from above with the added inclusion of unlimited stamina.

Originally posted by Juk3n
DD has 1) better move/environment/biological/kinetic reading abilities then her, 2) is a man, 3) is as fast or faster 4) is considered one fthe top MA's on marvel earth 5) is more agile 6) is stronger.

As for cap, if you don't accept "because he's Steve-Frickin-Rogers" as acceptable proof of superiority then theres no hope for you, and in that case should apply reasons 2 through 6 from above with the added inclusion of unlimited stamina.
facepalm

Originally posted by Juk3n
DD has 1) better move/environment/biological/kinetic reading abilities then her, 2) is a man, 3) is as fast or faster 4) is considered one fthe top MA's on marvel earth 5) is more agile 6) is stronger.

As for cap, if you don't accept "because he's Steve-Frickin-Rogers" as acceptable proof of superiority then theres no hope for you, and in that case should apply reasons 2 through 6 from above with the added inclusion of unlimited stamina.

#1. Daredevil is a master of a handful of Martial arts. Lady Shiva is a master of multiple, multiple, multiple times as many.
#2. Your sexism is ignorant and childish.
#3. Where is your proof he has better move reading abilities than her?
#4. Daredevil is not as high on the list of Martial artists as she is, he's only a 5 in fighting skill.

Originally posted by Lunacyde

#4. Daredevil is not as high on the list of Martial artists as she is, he's only a 5 in fighting skill.

In DD's defense, I will say that 5 is almost certainly obsolete, he's in the upper ranks nowadays IMO.


On Shiva's side however, there's a reason why in-universe Shiva's rated higher than Batman by Batman.

Originally posted by Q99
In DD's defense, I will say that 5 is almost certainly obsolete, he's in the upper ranks nowadays IMO.


On Shiva's side however, there's a reason why in-universe Shiva's rated higher than Batman by Batman.

In the normal timeline almost everyone agrees Lady Shiva is # 1 or #2 among non-enhanced human martial artists.

Lady Shiva record is incredible crappy.


Her reputation means nothing compared to DD track record. Daredevil 6/10

Lady Shiva lowballing is hilarious.

Funny because its true.

Shiva is one of DC's top ma, and enhanced stats mean squat with her. She'll walk all over DD or Panther.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Funny because its true.
Lowballing by definition is fallacious.

What's funnier is that you're such a Daredevil fanboy that you think this is a Daredevil vs thread.

Originally posted by Lunacyde
#4. Daredevil is not as high on the list of Martial artists as she is, he's only a 5 in fighting skill. Marvel and DC don't share the same fighting scale you lunatic.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Shiva is one of DC's top ma, and enhanced stats mean squat with her. She'll walk all over DD or Panther. She isn't walking over someone with MA ability as good as hers and superior physical stats.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Lady Shiva record is incredible crappy.


Her reputation means nothing compared to DD track record. Daredevil 6/10
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lowballing by definition is fallacious.

What's funnier is that you're such a Daredevil fanboy that you think this is a Daredevil vs thread.
LOL

Originally posted by Juk3n
Marvel and DC don't share the same fighting scale you lunatic.

First of all thank you for noticing my lunacy.

Second of all that's not the point. The point is that on the Marvel scale a 5 means...

Proficiency (skill) in combat
1 = Poor
2 = Normal
3 = Some training
4 = Experienced fighter
5 = Master of a single form of combat
6 = Master of several forms of combat
7 = Master of virtually all conventional forms of combat

Lady Shiva has Mastered Multiple forms. Please use common sense and logic instead of throwing a hissy fit, Thank You.

You're a lunatic.

Originally posted by Mindset
You're a lunatic.

I know =)

Lets not misunderstand me though. Black Panther wins, but it's because of his skill coupled with his enhanced stats, he is not more skilled than her.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lowballing by definition is fallacious.

What's funnier is that you're such a Daredevil fanboy that you think this is a Daredevil vs thread.



LOL even I had to laugh at myself for that one.


Oh well. Both DD or BP can POWN Shiva.


Believe it. She has never proven herself against Batman(by defeating him). Shiva lost twice to Cass and the second time Cass left her for dead on a hook.

And then she got beat by Prom if friggin 3 secs. Seriously and don't give me that bull that she beat Richard since her hench men saved her from him.

You're using Cassandra Cain (who is considered arguably DC's best fighter) and Prometheus (who took an entire team of heroes with nothing but his skill helmet and won) as some kind of reasoning that BP or DD would beat her in h2h?

Originally posted by Daredevil1
LOL even I had to laugh at myself for that one.


Oh well. Both DD or BP can POWN Shiva.


Believe it. She has never proven herself against Batman(by defeating him). Shiva lost twice to Cass and the second time Cass left her for dead on a hook.

And then she got beat by Prom if friggin 3 secs. Seriously and don't give me that bull that she beat Richard since her hench men saved her from him.

You do realize that Cassie is basically Shiva trained from an extremely young age to be the most efficient and deadly assassin she could be and then trained by Batman on top of that...

Cassie knows 127 forms of combat, Daredevil knows 5.

Yes because Shiva's track record for being considered the best.... number 1 anyways..........sucks.

Maybe before those losses it was without question. But now a days I put all characters like Black Panther, Batman, Elektra, Cap, Daredevil, Cass, Shang Chi, Richard Dragon above her in a fight.

Plus BP or DD are also arguably one of the best "fighters" as well. Best martial artists there's a difference if you try a different method.

Originally posted by Lunacyde
You do realize that Cassie is basically Shiva trained from an extremely young age to be the most efficient and deadly assassin she could be and then trained by Batman on top of that...

Cassie knows 127 forms of combat, Daredevil knows 5.


So more equal better.


You do realize Nick Fury stated there only a hand full of people that know what DD does do you?

Meaning more doesn't always equal better.

Lady Shiva is used as a measuring stick for new fighters, hence why she has lost a few. Then again the people she's lost to like Cassie Cain and Connor Hawke are superior to Daredevil in H2H skill so it's irrelevent.

To my knowledge Shiva never lost to Connor Hawke she actually had the edge or beat him IIRC. Connor did stalemate Cass at one time.

Cass is up there for sure but not superior.

She didn't lose to Connor Hawke, she won. The impressive thing Connor did was hold his own for awhile.

Batman's never beaten Shiva without outside aid.


To my knowledge Shiva never lost to Connor Hawke she actually had the edge or beat him IIRC. Connor did stalemate Cass at one time.

I don't think Cass has even gone at it with Connor for real. They did clash a little at the start of their teamup but it was a ruse to find out if Connor was the one behind some arrow-killings.

Cassandra is generally considered the very top, IMO *slightly* higher than Shiva, and she's got some pretty crazy physical feats and probably the best move reading in comics. Losing to her doesn't say much.

Originally posted by Q99
She didn't lose to Connor Hawke, she won. The impressive thing Connor did was hold his own for awhile.

Batman's never beaten Shiva without outside aid.


To my knowledge Shiva never lost to Connor Hawke she actually had the edge or beat him IIRC. Connor did stalemate Cass at one time.

I don't think Cass has even gone at it with Connor for real. They did clash a little at the start of their teamup but it was a ruse to find out if Connor was the one behind some arrow-killings.

Cassandra is generally considered the very top, IMO *slightly* higher than Shiva, and she's got some pretty crazy physical feats and probably the best move reading in comics. Losing to her doesn't say much.

Yes, thats my bad, getting appearances mashe dup in my head. My point however is simple, pure H2H skill Shiva is better than Daredevil and Black Panther. Panther may win becaus eof enhanced physicality on top of skill, but not skill alone.

Originally posted by Q99
She didn't lose to Connor Hawke, she won. The impressive thing Connor did was hold his own for awhile.

Batman's never beaten Shiva without outside aid.


To my knowledge Shiva never lost to Connor Hawke she actually had the edge or beat him IIRC. Connor did stalemate Cass at one time.

I don't think Cass has even gone at it with Connor for real. They did clash a little at the start of their teamup but it was a ruse to find out if Connor was the one behind some arrow-killings.

Cassandra is generally considered the very top, IMO *slightly* higher than Shiva, and she's got some pretty crazy physical feats and probably the best move reading in comics. Losing to her doesn't say much.
I'm pretty sure Shiva also defeated her in a rematch, thanking Cassandra for showing her how sloppy she had gotten in the process.

Almost every time Shiva has been beaten some kind of plot device (usually poison) is involved.

Cassie still has more wins against her though.

Anyway, Shiva kicks BP's head off.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

I'm pretty sure Shiva also defeated her in a rematch, thanking Cassandra for showing her how sloppy she had gotten in the process.



To my knowledge.....nope. Shiva once had a major advantage against Cass but that's when she was training Cass after she lost her body reading ability and Cass still KO'ed her via surprise attack IIRC.

By definition, Lady Shiva would be a 7 in Fighting Skill....above Daredevil, and Black Panther.

Lady Shiva has curbstomped Nightwing in a fight. Daredevil would not do the same, nor would Black Panther sans enhanced stats.

Batman also has curbstomped Nightwing in the past. Nightwing of today has even stalemated Cass in her own book some time ago.

Originally posted by Konton
Cassie still has more wins against her though.

Anyway, Shiva kicks BP's head off. Fail.

Originally posted by Lunacyde
By definition, Lady Shiva would be a 7 in Fighting Skill....above Daredevil, and Black Panther. Cap is adept at all fighting forms, BP is his peer.

Originally posted by Mindset
Cap is adept at all fighting forms, BP is his peer.

Where does it say this?

Originally posted by Daredevil1
So more equal better.


You do realize Nick Fury stated there only a hand full of people that know what DD does do you?

Meaning more doesn't always equal better.

Implying the Marvel Handbook(a secondary canon source) holds prevalence over the things said in comics which can directly contradict this.
Its better to go by things that actually happen in comics.

Even going by things that happen in comics Shiva is superior to DD and BP (w/o enhancements).

Daredevil is adept in 5 styles IIRC. He is peak human at most physically.

Shiva is said to be a master of all styles, has displayed peak human reflexes, and has beaten opponents that are both Daredevil's peers physically, and know more styles than him.

Originally posted by Lunacyde
Where does it say this? In a scan that's probably in his respect thread.

Originally posted by Mindset
In a scan that's probably in his respect thread.

The burden of proof is on you, not me. If you make statements, you need to back them up. I am not going to waste my time sifting through an entire respect thread looking for something you said.

I did back it up, I dont need to find the scan for you, it's easily accesible, if you wish to remain ignotant that's on you.

That's like a candidate in a Presidential debate saying I don't have the figures now but go look them up at the library, they're there and they're easily accessible. It's not our responsibility to provide the proof or even go look it up, it's the responsibility of the person making the claim.

I have no clue what scan you are referring to, there are tons of pages, and exponentially more scans in there...I will not go searching through it looking for something I don't even know what looks like or whether it's there.

If you wish to be lazy and not provide for the claims you make then don't debate in the thread.

I'm telling you about info that is well known and a scan that has been posted multiple times. Not my fault you don't know this stuff.

I won't press it further because well, we're getting off topic.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'm telling you about info that is well known and a scan that has been posted multiple times. Not my fault you don't know this stuff.
Think I found it...he fighting Zemo?

Originally posted by Lunacyde
Even going by things that happen in comics Shiva is superior to DD and BP (w/o enhancements).

Daredevil is adept in 5 styles IIRC. He is peak human at most physically.

Shiva is said to be a master of all styles, has displayed peak human reflexes, and has beaten opponents that are both Daredevil's peers physically, and know more styles than him.



Daredevil has stalemated Ironfist(before powerups) who is much more of a threat then Shiva. Plus DD has displayed levels of pressure point fighting that Shiva has never displayed of in my knowledge.

Shiva could be a master of all forms of combat but that won't mean squat if DD in one style has mastered it "better" then her multiple styles.

Heck Shang Chi is the master of kung fu and that one style of branches of kung fu(monkey, tiger etc) is still grand enough to make him candidate for one of the best skills, despite him not doing some of Daredevil techniques.

BP with his regular enhancement along with his training would get the better of her but Shiva makes him work for it

Comparing styles in comics is pretty stupid. Both are extremely skilled. There is no real favorite in skill.

#1. Not familiar with this...when did it happen? I agree DD is one of the best pressure point practitioners in comics.
#2. True, but you have to admit she has mastered quite a few of them pretty well having defeated opponents like Batman, Nightwing, Connor Hawke, Richard Dragon, Cassie, and many others.
#3. Shang Chi's reputation is greater than his record IMO, if you can prove otherwise I'd be delighted to learn.

#4 Agreed.

And just for clarification to Mindset the Cap scan says he is adept, which is impressive, but not the same as master.

just like Batman and Cassie "mastering" 127 different styles is hyperbole.

Number of styles really doesn't matter that much. One style done sufficiently well is all you need to be tops.

Originally posted by Juk3n
just like Batman and Cassie "mastering" 127 different styles is hyperbole.


Well, probably not so much. It was part of an encyclopedia of 'major' 'unarmed' styles that Bruce set up for Cassandra to study, with him going over each one.

If anything, it's low-balling the number they know.

Both LS and BP are masters of multiple styles.

Both have shown at least peak human reflexes.

BP has his enhanced attributes to his advantage, Shiva has her move reading.

It's a very close match despite what some might say.

Originally posted by Lunacyde

BP has his enhanced attributes to his advantage, Shiva has her move reading.

It's a very close match despite what some might say.

and Cap and BP don't.

Originally posted by Q99
Number of styles really doesn't matter that much. One style done sufficiently well is all you need to be tops.



That's why Batroc is a better match than BE

Originally posted by Lunacyde

And just for clarification to Mindset the Cap scan says he is adept, which is impressive, but not the same as master. Originally posted by Mindset
Cap is adept at all fighting forms, BP is his peer.

That's exactly what I said.

And adept means an expert.

Originally posted by Q99



Well, probably not so much. It was part of an encyclopedia of 'major' 'unarmed' styles that Bruce set up for Cassandra to study, with him going over each one.

If anything, it's low-balling the number they know.

you think cassy cain "MASTERED" not "trained in" or is "adept in" I mean "completley mastering" 130+ different styles of martial arts in under 20 years is NOT hyperbole? Thats 2 months per style if she trained back to back WITHOUT sleep time, school, other skill building activites?

And this is NOT hyperbole?

Originally posted by Juk3n
just like Batman and Cassie "mastering" 127 different styles is hyperbole.
Originally posted by Q99
Number of styles really doesn't matter that much. One style done sufficiently well is all you need to be tops.




Well, probably not so much. It was part of an encyclopedia of 'major' 'unarmed' styles that Bruce set up for Cassandra to study, with him going over each one.

If anything, it's low-balling the number they know.
Wait, since when has Cassie ever been said to know all those styles? I know she's a 1st class fighter because of her ability to read moves, but I've never seen it said that she's mastered 127 different styles before.

Originally posted by Juk3n
you think cassy cain "MASTERED" not "trained in" or is "adept in" I mean "completley mastering" 130+ different styles of martial arts in under 20 years is NOT hyperbole? Thats 2 months per style if she trained back to back WITHOUT sleep time, school, other skill building activites?

And this is NOT hyperbole?

#1. I was talking about Lady Shiva being a master of all forms, not Cassie.

#2. Cassie was raised to be an assassin by her father. She didn't go to school, she had no life outside of training and killing. She was taking down trained professionals so fast they needed high speed camera to see it before she turned 10.

#3. It's comics so stop trying to impose your own delusional rules on what she could accomplish.

@ Mindset - Adept can mean anything from skilled, proficient, all the way to expert. There is somewhat of a gap in between those synonyms.

Shiva should destroy him.

Originally posted by 753
Shiva should destroy him.


Nah, but she can beat him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, since when has Cassie ever been said to know all those styles? I know she's a 1st class fighter because of her ability to read moves, but I've never seen it said that she's mastered 127 different styles before.

Batman gives her a disk containing 127 forms of combat and tells her not to come see him till she has learned them all.

Originally posted by Lunacyde
Batman gives her a disk containing 127 forms of combat and tells her not to come see him till she has learned them all.


The Bat bluff.

Haha.

Originally posted by Juk3n
you think cassy cain "MASTERED" not "trained in" or is "adept in" I mean "completley mastering" 130+ different styles of martial arts in under 20 years is NOT hyperbole? Thats 2 months per style if she trained back to back WITHOUT sleep time, school, other skill building activites?

And this is NOT hyperbole? It's not hyperbole. Because from the on-panel evidence, she was only given basics of at least one of those styles. Which necessarily means she wasn't tutored into mastering at least one of those styles. Originally posted by Lunacyde
Batman gives her a disk containing 127 forms of combat and tells her not to come see him till she has learned them all. Apparently, the teachings on how to master them all was not contained on the disk.

All she would really need is David Cain's own hybrid style, which we can assume she did master

I don't even think she could take T'Chaka let alone T'Challa.

Originally posted by Juk3n
you think cassy cain "MASTERED" not "trained in" or is "adept in" I mean "completley mastering" 130+ different styles of martial arts in under 20 years is NOT hyperbole? Thats 2 months per style if she trained back to back WITHOUT sleep time, school, other skill building activites?

And this is NOT hyperbole?

She learned stickfighting in 15 minutes once. And then learned Shadowthief's style of ninjutsu while fighting him in mid-fight ala Taskmaster and was able to defeat him, an expert in it, with his own style after seeing just around three moves of it.


And she was raised in a bunker doing nothing but training to fight with one of the top fighters in the world, then had Batman tutor her on every style he knows, so... yea.


Keep in mind also, when you learn a new style you aren't starting from square one. Your body already knows how to punch as a master, kick as a master, dodge as a master, etc..


Cassandra, having such intuitive knowledge of martial arts... and this probably applies to Shiva as well... will apply any move she knows at master level, and seeing a move is everything needed to learn that move, so simply seeing the move set is enough to know all the moves at master-level, and then apply them with all their understanding of martial arts, and bam, that's all that mastering a style is.



Picture a perfect martial-arts learning machine. Then put a batmask on it and call it 'Cassandra.' That's basically what David Cain designed her to be from birth (well, sans Batmask).


----


Interesting note on Lady Shiva, I believe she only uses one style. Each year she tosses away her old one and constructs a new one with the fighting knowledge she's accumulated over the year. So while she no doubt knows piles of styles and could mimic the greatest master of each with her eyes closed, she uses none but her own in actual fighting.

Originally posted by Q99
She learned stickfighting in 15 minutes once. And then learned Shadowthief's style of ninjutsu while fighting him in mid-fight ala Taskmaster and was able to defeat him, an expert in it, with his own style after seeing just around three moves of it.




Learning stick fighting and learning Shadowthief style is not the same as mastering the style for yourself.


Taskmaster is a great example that you brought up, he can mimik the style down to a tea on a level that's greater then most martial artist, but will never master it sans the experience for that said style.

Even the great Ironfist who some consider him the best above Daredevil or Shiva was once emulating Daredevil's fighting style but Daredevil still used it much better then him.

And for good reason.

Originally posted by Daredevil1

Taskmaster is a great example that you brought up, he can mimik the style down to a tea on a level that's greater then most martial artist, but will never master it sans the experience for that said style.

Even the great Ironfist who some consider him the best above Daredevil or Shiva was once emulating Daredevil's fighting style but Daredevil still used it much better then him.

And for good reason.

I'd definitely call when Taskmaster is fighting with DD's style "Master" level. He can fight masters on even terms with his copied styles.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
I don't even think she could take T'Chaka let alone T'Challa.


T'chaka may have better feats than T'challa.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd definitely call when Taskmaster is fighting with DD's style "Master" level. He can fight masters on even terms with his copied styles.


And yet DD is still better then him with his style because Tasky lacks the experience that DD has with that style. So what does that make DD "Grand Master".

Originally posted by Bentley
T'chaka may have better feats than T'challa.


Possibly for sure but doubtful.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
And yet DD is still better then him with his style because Tasky lacks the experience that DD has with that style. So what does that make DD "Grand Master". Every black belt is a master, there are still level differences among black belts. You're equating mastering with being the best fighter in the planet in a given style. DD being ebtter means nothing about TM's mastery.

Originally posted by 753
Every black belt is a master, there are still level differences among black belts. You're equating mastering with being the best fighter in the planet in a given style. DD being ebtter means nothing about TM's mastery.


Daredevil being better then TM should equate to DD being a higher belt then TM while not diminishing TM mastery. But of course DD will be better at his own style then TM.

Originally posted by 753
Every black belt is a master, there are still level differences among black belts. You're equating mastering with being the best fighter in the planet in a given style. DD being ebtter means nothing about TM's mastery.

Yes. "Master" is a general category with some variation. It pretty much just means you know a style inside and out and can perform with it at very high level.



No, it makes him a slightly better master.

And, honestly, in terms of knowing the moves and such, that is to say the style specifically, they'll be really close.


In the case of someone like Cass or Tasky, they'll apply their own existing deep experience with combat to a new style, and the results'll be very close. The deeper their experience with other styles, the easier it'll be to apply to one like DD's.

Marvel's power grid is all over the place
Taskmaster is labeled as a 7 because of his powers yet and has losses to Daredevil(a 5,not true at all) and Elektra(a 6,imo shes a 7).

You really shouldn't go by secondary canon to make statements about who wins a fight. Its easier to just say that Taskmaster knows a large amount of martial arts but its not enough to say he can beat someone hes lost too consistently.

It's worst area is probably the hand to hand section due to the focusing on the number of styles thing.

shiva got this