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Now before you twats hack away at your keyboards about how I didn't search on google, I did and couldn't find any concise answers.

I was talking to a few people today who were discussing the Mayan civilisation, and I've got some questions.

What happened to the Mayans? I was reading online and they told me that the Mayans disappeared without a trace - another suggestion was that they blended into other cultures.

Were the Mayans a monotheistic nation? I read somewhere online when I searched that said this was true.

Just need someone with a bit of historical knowledge in them to clear this up.

Originally posted by Liberator
What happened to the Mayans? I was reading online and they told me that the Mayans disappeared without a trace - another suggestion was that they blended into other cultures.

Presumably they either disappeared without a trace or blended into other culture.

Originally posted by Liberator
Were the Mayans a monotheistic nation? I read somewhere online when I searched that said this was true.

They had lots of gods.

Originally posted by Liberator
What happened to the Mayans? I was reading online and they told me that the Mayans disappeared without a trace - another suggestion was that they blended into other cultures.

technically, it was only the major southern cities that "collapsed" during the 7-9th century. Northern cities remained culturally and politically Mayan, though there was less unity. By the time the Spanish arrived in the following centuries, many of these cities were either their own Empires with Mayan origins, or decentralized Maya "city-states"

as **** like as it might be, nobody here will give you a better run-down of the collapse than:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_collapse

EDIT: twats, ****. Interesting, the singular is censored....

Originally posted by Liberator
Were the Mayans a monotheistic nation? I read somewhere online when I searched that said this was true.

It appears very difficult to tell, because traditional Mayan beliefs have been interpreted through, and modified by, the Roman Catholicism of the Spanish. I could paraphrase, but this paragraph from Wiki seemed most illustrative:



to me, at least, it seems much more like the Gods of East Asia/Korea especially, and the rest of the Wiki on "Mayan religion" seems to talk more extensively about anscestor worship than diety worship

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_religion

best I can come up with

EDIT: actually, maybe it is more like the African Loa.... (I know Loa is the Carribian version, I totally forget what they are called in Africa though)

Originally posted by Liberator
Now before you twats hack away at your keyboards about how I didn't search on google, I did and couldn't find any concise answers.

I was talking to a few people today who were discussing the Mayan civilisation, and I've got some questions.

What happened to the Mayans? I was reading online and they told me that the Mayans disappeared without a trace - another suggestion was that they blended into other cultures.

Were the Mayans a monotheistic nation? I read somewhere online when I searched that said this was true.

Just need someone with a bit of historical knowledge in them to clear this up.

Mayans and other cultures in the area have been reliant on access to fresh water via sink holes...Likely that during periods of drought when the water level in these sinkholes dropped that they simply couldn't access it.

Probably didn't help that they used these same sinkholes to give sacrifices to the Gods...I wouldn't want to drink water with dead bodies festering in it.

Makes sense to me; most of what they told me was just some conspiracy stuff about aliens yadayadayada.

conspiracy forum

I'm not sure about the specifics but South Americans also had alot of contact with West Africans I think specifically the Mandingo and that was before the Spanish arrived.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm not sure about the specifics but South Americans also had alot of contact with West Africans I think specifically the Mandingo and that was before the Spanish arrived.

Define "alot of contact" for me.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Define "alot of contact" for me.

I think they interacted with them for several centuries.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm not sure about the specifics but South Americans also had alot of contact with West Africans I think specifically the Mandingo and that was before the Spanish arrived.
Is there any hard evidence of this?

The only pre-Columbian contact theory with actual evidence that I can recall is the Norse settlements in Newfoundland.

Originally posted by Deadline
I think they interacted with them for several centuries. like interbreeding?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Is there any hard evidence of this?

The only pre-Columbian contact theory with actual evidence that I can recall is the Norse settlements in Newfoundland.

Ok off the top of my head. Europeans travellers were told that black people had been there before them. There are statues of african people and pictures. Some natives took some african words and they also had took at least one god from the mandingo which was a wolf god. I might not be exactly right about the specifics but its in this book.

http://www.amazon.com/They-Came-Before-Columbus-Presence/dp/0394402456

They were also in North America as well. I think Columbus or at least his son saw black people there.

This maybe more useful

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/010.html

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
like interbreeding?

Trade as well.

Originally posted by Deadline
Ok off the top of my head. Europeans travellers were told that black people had been there before them. There are statues of african people and pictures. Some natives took some african words and they also had took at least one god from the mandingo which was a wolf god. I might not be exactly right about the specifics but its in this book.

http://www.amazon.com/They-Came-Before-Columbus-Presence/dp/0394402456

They were also in North America as well. I think Columbus or at least his son saw black people there.

This maybe more useful

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/010.html



Trade as well.
Ivan Van Sertima's theories have been more or less discredited by most mainstream academics as mostly baseless.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Ivan Van Sertima's theories have been more or less discredited by most mainstream academics as mostly baseless.

By who? Its not actually far fetched at all. The Vikings 'discovered' Americe and as far as I can remember even the Romans and possibly Greeks have. I'm pretty sure hes not the only historian who has this opinion I think Basil Davidson does as well.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm not sure about the specifics but South Americans also had alot of contact with West Africans I think specifically the Mandingo and that was before the Spanish arrived.

Militant Afro-centrists claim that the Olmecs and Mayans were visited and influenced by ancient Black people.

But that view is rejected by mainstream anthropologists.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Militant Afro-centrists claim that the Olmecs and Mayans were visited and influenced by ancient Black people.

But that view is rejected by mainstream anthropologists.

Ok but i'm not sure if its rejected that black people went to America before Columbus.

no, it is generally not thought that Africans were the first to visit the Americas

Originally posted by inimalist
no, it is generally not thought that Africans were the first to visit the Americas

If they travelled there before Columbus they weren't there first but I see what you mean. Why is that?

because there is no real evidence. at best there are coincidences and conjecture, but nothing physical or unarguable

for instance, there is nothing close to the evidence we have for Norse colonization of Vinland

Originally posted by Deadline
If they travelled there before Columbus they weren't there first but I see what you mean. Why is that?

Because they're stories made up by the Black Power types who want to believe that Africans reached the Americas before Europeans.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Because they're stories made up by the Black Power types who want to believe that Africans reached the Americas before Europeans.

Its certainly possible however I only read about two chapters of the book. Did a little reasearch and sure enough alot of people think Sertima is a joke. I think I'll be more careful next time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact

some interesting theories

Originally posted by inimalist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact

some interesting theories

Theories! You racist! Come on now I couldn't let this slide without pulling the race card.

Originally posted by Deadline
Its certainly possible however I only read about two chapters of the book. Did a little reasearch and sure enough alot of people think Sertima is a joke. I think I'll be more careful next time.

Not really. Sub-Saharan Africans were never known for vast seafaring. What African tribe or nation had the ships and organization to pull it off?

I think Polynesians definitely reached the Americas. There's a special on the History Channel called Who Really Discovered America? and one of the professors says "If they could find tiny specks of land in the middle of nowhere, then how could they miss the two massive islands of North and South America?". Plus, crops native to South America were found in the Pacific Islands, as well as Polynesian fish-hook necklaces in South and Central America.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Not really. Sub-Saharan Africans were never known for vast seafaring. What African tribe or nation had the ships and organization to pull it off?



Mali Empire. I think its actually part of their history that a large number of boats set sail for the Atlantic Ocean. No this doesn't mean that they made it but they had the resources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact#Africans

North African sources describe what some consider to be visits to the New World by a Mali fleet in 1311. According to these sources, 400 ships from the Mali Empire discovered a land across the ocean to the West after being swept off course by ocean currents. Only one ship returned, and the captain reported the discovery of a western current to Prince Abubakari II; the off-course Mali fleet of 400 ships is said to have conducted both trade and warfare with the peoples of the western lands. It is claimed that Prince Abubakari II abdicated his throne and set off to explore these western lands. In 1324, the Mali king Mansa Musa is said to have told the Arabic historian, Al-Umari that "his predecessors had launched two expeditions from West Africa to discover the limits of the Atlantic Ocean."

I find the polynesian stuff very interesting

Originally posted by Deadline
By who? Its not actually far fetched at all. The Vikings 'discovered' Americe and as far as I can remember even the Romans and possibly Greeks have. I'm pretty sure hes not the only historian who has this opinion I think Basil Davidson does as well.
There are a shit ton of claims. Here's the short list of cultures who have claimed to have attained pre-Columbian contact or who have been theorized as being capable of attaining it:
Ancient Egyptians
Greeks
Romans
Welsh
Irish
Vikings
Chinese
Polynesians
West Africans

Of those claims the only one with hard evidence is the Viking claim and the only ones that are really feasible are the Polynesian and Chinese claims but they lack the tangible proof that the Vinland story has.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
There are a shit ton of claims. Here's the short list of cultures who have claimed to have attained pre-Columbian contact or who have been theorized as being capable of attaining it:
Ancient Egyptians
Greeks
Romans
Welsh
Irish
Vikings
Chinese
Polynesians
West Africans

Of those claims the only one with hard evidence is the Viking claim and the only ones that are really feasible are the Polynesian and Chinese claims but they lack the tangible proof that the Vinland story has.

In the above post all I stated was that it wasn't far fetched that they were able to reach America. Have no problem with the Vikings and others.

However what it looks like to me is Van Sertima blew things way out of proportion, unfortunately some black historians do that. I think it stems from times when there was a deliberate attempt to cover up black history but what happens is that some black historians become like their enemies.

Originally posted by Deadline
In the above post all I stated was that it wasn't far fetched that they were able to reach America. Have no problem with the Vikings and others.

However what it looks like to me is Van Sertima blew things way out of proportion, unfortunately some black historians do that. I think it stems from times when there was a deliberate attempt to cover up black history but what happens is that some black historians become like their enemies.
During the 19th and early 20th centuries a lot of discoveries of ancient African civilizations were usually erroneously attributed to white people so yes there have been serious misrepresentations of African civilization in Western academia. That doesn't change the fact that the burden of proof would be on the person claiming that Africans visited the Americas prior to Columbus.

Even if there was the theoretical possibility that an early seafaring African culture could make the voyage there's still the matter of determining whether they would make the voyage.

The Egyptians for instance had ships which have actually been proven to be ocean worthy, but almost no one seriously suggests that they'd ever try to cross the Ocean.

The reason why the Polynesian, Chinese, and Viking claims are believable (well in the Viking's case we've found actual settlements and trade goods) is that these cultures had both the means and the possible inclination to cross the Ocean. Especially the Polynesians who are almost defined by their island hopping.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
During the 19th and early 20th centuries a lot of discoveries of ancient African civilizations were usually erroneously attributed to white people so yes there have been serious misrepresentations of African civilization in Western academia. That doesn't change the fact that the burden of proof would be on the person claiming that Africans visited the Americas prior to Columbus.

I know.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

Even if there was the theoretical possibility that an early seafaring African culture could make the voyage there's still the matter of determining whether they would make the voyage.

The Egyptians for instance had ships which have actually been proven to be ocean worthy, but almost no one seriously suggests that they'd ever try to cross the Ocean.

I don't know about that but I see were you coming from. I haven't studied Mali ships in-depth all I can say is that they were extremely rich and had the resources, so that story I quoted may well have happened.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

The reason why the Polynesian, Chinese, and Viking claims are believable (well in the Viking's case we've found actual settlements and trade goods) is that these cultures had both the means and the possible inclination to cross the Ocean. Especially the Polynesians who are almost defined by their island hopping.

Sure.

Originally posted by Deadline
I know.



I don't know about that but I see were you coming from. I haven't studied Mali ships in-depth all I can say is that they were extremely rich and had the resources, so that story I quoted may well have happened.



Sure.
The thing that you'd have to look for is navigation technology/knowhow. The reason why cross oceanic voyages were so rare prior to the 15th-16th century is that most cultures before that time lacked the ability to navigate open ocean for extended periods of time.

Even the Vikings preferred to stick to coast lines and used Iceland and the Faroe Islands as safety rails on their way to Greenland and Vinland.

Ibn Battuta seemed to describe Mali as a civilization every bit as rich and sophisticated as that of Byzantium or the Ilkhanate. So they may well have had the resources, its just a question of (1) if they had the reason/will to send ships across the ocean and (2) if they could have actually navigated the open ocean.