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Jedi Anakin? No Zone? Then the Sith at the cost of a limb or two.

Zonakin? Then the Jedi at the cost of Kenobi.

Depends who takes on who, and how powerful Anakin is feeling on this day..

Is he in one of those moods where he cant take Ventress, or one of those where he matches or even defeats Dooku??

If Zone Anakin takes on Dooku and Kenobi takes on Maul, then Anakin will beat Dooku first, leaving Maul to get killed by both Obiwan and Anakin..

If Zone Anakin takes on Maul first, then thats a tricky one.. Depends who goes down first Kenobi or Maul.. I think it will be Kenobi.. If thats true then Zone or not, Anakin's gna get killed by both Dooku and Maul..

Any version where Anakin aint in the "zone" the Sith win this fairly comftorbly.

Heck Dooku can take them both on and dispose of Kenobi by himself, without Maul even doing anything!

pretty sure ROTS kenobi can handle maul... but besides that, pretty good analysis.

Well much later on when Anakin was Darth Vader he actually bested the clone of Darth Maul in terms of lightsaber combat until Maul switched to Jar'kai, not sure how that adds to the equation though. I'll just agree with Darth Power's I guess

a clone isn't the same as the original, or every mandalorian is exactly as good as boba.

If the clones were as good as the original, I'd be getting my ass handed to me write now in TFU II.

Yea agreed. What does Zone mean? Sorry I'm kind of new in the forums and my knowledge in Star Wars is just a wee bit more than the average fan.

The RotS novel described Anakin's mind as clear as a bell and fueled by fury. That combination of Dark and Light for him is what we call "Zone Anakin"--the clear-headedness of a Jedi with power of the Dark Side. That was what allowed him to take down Dooku in a matter of seconds. It's kind of agreed here that that version of Anakin could survive a one-on-one encounter with all but the most proficent duelists and powerful Force-users (Luke, Palpatine, Caedus, Bane etc.).

or, as some (read, Me) believe, Anakin caught a worn out Dooku at the end of a 2 on 1 duel after Dooku spent a lot of energy creating a clearly-described FARCE of a fight and overpowered the tired old man...

Doesn't speak well for Dooku's durability, considering his style is supposed to be an enhanced version of Soresu that prioritizes energy conservation, and his duel with the duo only lasted about ten seconds.

Originally posted by truejedi
or, as some (read, Me) believe, Anakin caught a worn out Dooku at the end of a 2 on 1 duel after Dooku spent a lot of energy creating a clearly-described FARCE of a fight and overpowered the tired old man... If that tired old man fell that fast after hearing Palpatine's advice that he should die, and realizing that that's the way of the Sith, then that old man wasn't much to begin with. During said farce of a duel, he outed Kenobi and Dun Moch'd Skywalker in to backpedaling. And then was promptly killed in a matter seconds--but only after Anakin "got it now".

Dooku was getting tired sure, but for f*ckssake, give the Sith Lord some more credit that that.

Originally posted by truejedi
pretty sure ROTS kenobi can handle maul...

Handle him? Sure.. But it could take a while to defeat him.. Consider how long it takes Kenobi to defeat Ventress.. And to me Ventress seems like a Maul wannabe, but thats just my opinion.

If this is Zone Anakin, then he'll defeat Dooku in no given time, and Kenobi will defeat Maul in no given time. The Jedi will "handle" the situation.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If this is Zone Anakin, then he'll defeat Dooku in no given time, and Kenobi will defeat Maul in no given time. The Jedi will "handle" the situation.

I "handled" DP's mom!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If this is Zone Anakin, then he'll defeat Dooku in no given time,

True we've already seen that happen.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
and Kenobi will defeat Maul in no given time.

You seem to have pulled this one out of your ass.. Maybe you mean the way Kenobi always took out Ventress in "no given time".. Oh wait, that never happened.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True we've already seen that happen.



You seem to have pulled this one out of your ass.. Maybe you mean the way Kenobi always took out Ventress in "no given time".. Oh wait, that never happened. What are you talking about? I didn't give a time.

The Canadian is correct sir - he said "no given time". Cheeky bastard.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What are you talking about? I didn't give a time.

Oh right. Sorry. I thought you meant in no time at all.

Not that Kenobi wouldn't utterly hand Maul his ass in an even worse fashion than he did in TPM.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Not that Kenobi wouldn't utterly hand Maul his ass in an even worse fashion than he did in TPM.

He didn't exactly hand him his ass in TPM, and he wouldn't here either- although he would likely defeat him with great effort.

He did, literally, put Maul on his ass. Weither or not there's some silly PIS involved doesn't change the fact that he did.

And yes he would. Maul isn't that impressive compared to the big league fighters. I mean, due to Soresu it might take awhile, but, Obi-Wan would never be in any danger. He'd handle him in the same lazy non-chalant way he handled Assaj in the clone wars movie.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He did, literally, put Maul on his ass. Weither or not there's some silly PIS involved doesn't change the fact that he did.

And yes he would. Maul isn't that impressive compared to the big league fighters. I mean, due to Soresu it might take awhile, but, Obi-Wan would never be in any danger. He'd handle him in the same lazy non-chalant way he handled Assaj in the clone wars movie.

Damnit Blax, he didn't walk up to him, ass in hand, and hand it to him - didn't happen! To say Maul isn't a threat to the big league fighters is borderline nonsense - Maybe not Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda, but Ob1 - yeah.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He did, literally, put Maul on his ass.

Was that after or before Maul chucked him down the shaft and killed Obiwan's Jedi Master?? If it was a one on one fight Qui-Gons lightsaber wuldnt have been conviniently hanging around therefore Obi-Wan lost his actual One on One Lightsaber duel with Maul.


Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
And yes he would. Maul isn't that impressive compared to the big league fighters.

Well he's more impressive than Ventress thats for sure. And Ventress has given Obi-Wan hell on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I mean, due to Soresu it might take awhile, but, Obi-Wan would never be in any danger.

I dunno.. Juyo's no joke.. And Maul's kicks are lethal.. And despite Obi-wans defence its been proven many times he can still be kicked or punched mid-saber fight.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He'd handle him in the same lazy non-chalant way he handled Assaj in the clone wars movie.

You mean the fight where at one point Ventress disarms him.. I sure hope he fights better than that, cause if Maul disarms him he aint gna miss!

Im sure the Master of Soresu would defeat Maul but I seriously doubt it'd be a walk in the park against a guy who was chosen and trained by Sidious himself, was a physical beast, and Mastered Juyo, Martial Arts, the Lightsaber, Saber Staff and Teras Kasi/Jar Kai or watever its called.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Was that after or before Maul chucked him down the shaft and killed Obiwan's Jedi Master?? If it was a one on one fight Qui-Gons lightsaber wuldnt have been conviniently hanging around therefore Obi-Wan lost his actual One on One Lightsaber duel with Maul.




Well he's more impressive than Ventress thats for sure. And Ventress has given Obi-Wan hell on more than one occasion.



I dunno.. Juyo's no joke.. And Maul's kicks are lethal.. And despite Obi-wans defence its been proven many times he can still be kicked or punched mid-saber fight.



You mean the fight where at one point Ventress disarms him.. I sure hope he fights better than that, cause if Maul disarms him he aint gna miss!

Im sure the Master of Soresu would defeat Maul but I seriously doubt it'd be a walk in the park against a guy who was chosen and trained by Sidious himself, was a physical beast, and Mastered Juyo, Martial Arts, the Lightsaber, Saber Staff and Teras Kasi/Jar Kai or watever its called.

...in other words...

He wouldn't just cut Maul in two, he would cut him up in 19 pieces, in one second.

yes.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
He wouldn't just cut Maul in two, he would cut him up in 19 pieces, in one second.

Yeah just like he did to Ventress right?? One long second that was!

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
...in other words...

He would defeat him with a lot of effort

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah just like he did to Ventress right?? One long second that was!

I'll rephrase for you: He'll cut Maul in 19 pieces, within one and the same second. Not after one second.

He cut Anakin up in less than a second. I find it very likely he could do the same to Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He would defeat him with a lot of effort

I was agreeing w/ you - indicating that you stated virtually the same thing (albeit in expanded format) that I stated in my earlier post.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He did, literally, put Maul on his ass. Weither or not there's some silly PIS involved doesn't change the fact that he did.

And yes he would. Maul isn't that impressive compared to the big league fighters. I mean, due to Soresu it might take awhile, but, Obi-Wan would never be in any danger. He'd handle him in the same lazy non-chalant way he handled Assaj in the clone wars movie. He was tapping some anger at the time. Give him 13 years, war experience, and mastery of Soresu... Maul's not touching him.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He was tapping some anger at the time. Give him 13 years, war experience, and mastery of Soresu... Maul's not touching him.

As was stated earlier; Just like Ventress didn't "touch him", right? And no bs about abc logic.

Ventress got humiliated by Kenobi.

Like from the :36 second mark to the :55 second mark? Can't see Kenobi grabbing Maul and forcing him back like he did Ventress. Do you really believe an unarmed Kenobi would survive Darth Maul? I mean, Kenobi could, and would probably win, but it'd be damn close, and if he give Maul the slightest opening (ala his fight w/ Ventress in the video), he's done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMUntfHgSxc

pretty sure kenobi was laughing at her the whole time.

That was just his way of frustrating her, saying things like "you'll have to do better than that my darling"

And listen and watch carefully, he didnt actually start winning the fight until she sensed Anakin was gone. And Obi-wan used that to frustrate Ventress further.

Remember in a later episode she was fighting both Anakin and Obiwan simultaneously. Obi-wan was hardly laughing then.

All this comparing of the Obi-Wan vs Ventress fight and the Obi-Wan vs Maul fight makes you wonder how far Ventress is actually behind Maul in terms of lightsaber combat.

Probably not too far behind. I think Ventress has come far since being trained by Dooku. In a deleted scene from the CW movie, Ventress almost defeats Anakin. Then in an episode later on she fights off both Obi-Wan and Anakin together. So shes tough, no doubt about that. But Maul is certainly ahead of her.

exactly, kenobi doesn't mock Anakin in what was a close fight. He doesn't mock Dooku. He just mocks ventress and grievous, two foes he WTFpwns.

Originally posted by truejedi
exactly, kenobi doesn't mock Anakin in what was a close fight. He doesn't mock Dooku. He just mocks ventress and grievous, two foes he WTFpwns.

Obviously he wasnt gna mock Anakin.. "haha u loser u chose the dark side"

And he was too busy getting whooped by Dooku to mock him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obviously he wasnt gna mock Anakin.. "haha u loser u chose the dark side"

LMAO!!

lol, in that case, i suppose you are right: that might have made Ewan McGregor struggle with the whole Doesn't want to kill his brother thing if the text was "Try harder anakin, or i'm going to cut you fool!"

Dooku has a decent chance of soloing these two by himself. Maul can certainly stall Kenobi.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Dooku has a decent chance of soloing these two by himself. Maul can certainly stall Kenobi.

stall him until Anankin kills Dooku? What would be the point of that?

Dooku is just as skilled as Anakin with a blade and far superior to him in Force knowledge and power.

Anakin has raw power which, if put to use in the right mindstate, can shit on somebody. What we saw in ROTS was an occurence of random happenings. Dooku was owning both of them before Anakin went apeshit. Now, if Maul is dealing with Kenobi in another room......

Team 2

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Dooku is just as skilled as Anakin with a blade and far superior to him in Force knowledge and power.

Anakin has raw power which, if put to use in the right mindstate, can shit on somebody. What we saw in ROTS was an occurence of random happenings. Dooku was owning both of them before Anakin went apeshit. Now, if Maul is dealing with Kenobi in another room......

I would be convinced by this argument if I didnt see Count Dooku having difficulty taking out Anakin alone in the CW movie. Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on. Dooku's best chance is to take out Anakin early in the fight, best chance would be with the Force.

But again judging by the fight in CW that doesnt seen likely.

What you saw in the Clone Wars film was that Anakin and Dooku are comparable in swordmanship and that Dooku is Anakin's superior in the Force.

Remember, Dooku stood up to Yoda in a lightsaber duel and a force fight. I don't think Anakin belongs in the same class as Yoda nor would he be able to entertain Yoda with the Force to the extent that Dooku did.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
nor would he be able to entertain Yoda with the Force to the extent that Dooku did.


Entertain is a very good word for what Dooku did for a very few seconds with Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
What you saw in the Clone Wars film was that Anakin and Dooku are comparable in swordmanship and that Dooku is Anakin's superior in the Force.

Remember, Dooku stood up to Yoda in a lightsaber duel and a force fight. I don't think Anakin belongs in the same class as Yoda nor would he be able to entertain Yoda with the Force to the extent that Dooku did.

Darth Martin, dude, really man, Dooku did anything BUT stand up to Yoda in a Force contest. Dooku is like a child compared to Master Yoda.

"Much to learn you still have."
Yoda''s assessment of Dooku's efforts says it all.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
What you saw in the Clone Wars film was that Anakin and Dooku are comparable in swordmanship and that Dooku is Anakin's superior in the Force.

Remember, Dooku stood up to Yoda in a lightsaber duel and a force fight. I don't think Anakin belongs in the same class as Yoda nor would he be able to entertain Yoda with the Force to the extent that Dooku did.

My point was only that the CW movie showed Dooku does not seem to be able to take Anakin out quickly and easily even one on one. And the more time Anakin has, the stronger he gets, and the more chance there is of him finding that clarity in his state of mind to win.

But the CW movie also clearly showed Anakin is no match for Dooku in the Force. So Dooku's best chance against a ROTS Anakin(or a time period close to ROTS) would be an all out Force Attack.

I do wonder why when Anakin was disarmed and lying on the floor Dooku didnt follow up with another Force attack, Force Lightning maybe, or summon Anakin's lightsaber to his own hand??

Originally posted by axel_jovan
"Much to learn you still have."
Yoda''s assessment of Dooku's efforts says it all.

I wuldnt go by that.. Yoda also says "Powerful you have become Dooku," and "Fought well you have my former padawan"

Whilst Dooku claims the Force fight was a draw, "Clearly this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the Force.."

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Darth Martin, dude, really man, Dooku did anything BUT stand up to Yoda in a Force contest. Dooku is like a child compared to Master Yoda.

And yet the AOTC novel states Yoda was deflecting Dooku's blasts "Far from easily" and that Yoda was "exhausted" after their fight.

We all know Yoda is greater to Dooku, but I think people here serisouly underestimate Dooku. After all if Yoda was so much uber greater than Dooku, then why culd'nt Yoda stop him escaping??

Why didnt he take him out with the Force, instead of agreeing to Dooku's terms of switching the fight to a Saber fight?? And why didnt he disarm Dooku the way Anakin did??

Also in "Schism" when Mace Windu asks Yoda to spar Yoda replies "Practice I had against Count Dooku.. Good enough for me that was.."

So clearly all the evidence shows the Dooku fight was not an easy one for Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

After all if Yoda was so much uber greater than Dooku, then why culd'nt Yoda stop him escaping??



They uh... they actually... showed why he couldn't in the movie. I'd... recommend watching it.

Are the novel's still canon?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
They uh... they actually... showed why he couldn't in the movie. I'd... recommend watching it.

Hey if we're going just by what we saw then I could argue it looked like a draw, and Dooku only escaped because he culdnt beat Yoda, not because he was losing.. You see how that works??

But what is it im supposed to have seen anyway? The distraction right?? And what about before that?? what about during the force fight??
If Yoda is so much uber greater in the force than Dooku, then why didnt he just stop him at that point?? Why did he agree to Dooku's terms of switching it to a Saber fight??
If Dooku is absolutely no where close to Yoda, why was it taking Yoda so long to disarm him in the saber fight?

Originally posted by truejedi
Are the novel's still canon?

Still canon?? why wuldnt they be??

We only ignore the novels where they contradict what happened in the movies.
But they give us a greater insight into whats going on in a fight scene for example.. In fact its the only source that tells us Yoda was actually kicking Dooku's ass in the saber fight, otherwise we wuldnt know that.

If they show force use above and beyond what the movie does... then they are non-canon. For instance, in the movie, Windu and Sidious don't really move at very fast speeds.

In the novel they do. In the past, we had considered the super-fast speeds to be canon, simply because they couldn't show the actor's moving on film like they wanted to. Now with Chee's comment, we have to say: The movie is correct, and anything out of the movie that enhances their force use in INCORRECT.

So Sidious and Mace really did fight that duel at old man speeds, since saying they did not would be enhancing the force beyond what the movie showed.

Hey?! what exactly did smart old Chee say??!!

I think the movie fight sequences are shown at a speed we can watch, otherwise Mace Windu is no faster than Sameul L. And since all of Dooku's fight scenes were either stunt men or CG (flips and stuff) then Dooku is automatically faster than Mace by that logic.

Not to mention Jar Jar Binks?? LOL! He was always CG so shown to move much faster than Mace Windu! LOL

exactly. it sucks. I'm bummed about it. The quote is in the battle bar. Blax posted it. Its pretty hard to get around.

I wouldn't be completely against disregarding a lot of what Leland says. I've asked him a lot of questions, and to the few that he's actually answered, he generally gave very poorly thought out, inexact, and at times logically incorrect answers. He gets a lot of questions thrown at him and you can tell he rushes through answering them for the most part.

Originally posted by truejedi
If they show force use above and beyond what the movie does... then they are non-canon. For instance, in the movie, Windu and Sidious don't really move at very fast speeds.

In the novel they do. In the past, we had considered the super-fast speeds to be canon, simply because they couldn't show the actor's moving on film like they wanted to. Now with Chee's comment, we have to say: The movie is correct, and anything out of the movie that enhances their force use in INCORRECT.

So Sidious and Mace really did fight that duel at old man speeds, since saying they did not would be enhancing the force beyond what the movie showed.

I see what you're doing there -














I think

Chee is like ChaCha, most of the time the answer you get is going to have nothing to do with the question you ask...

I dnt think thats quite what he said. He was talking about the extent of force powers. So we see Sidious twirl and leap superfast in ROTS. We see Obiwan and Quigon run superfast in TPM, so obviously Mace can also move that fast, probably faster because hes more powerful than TPM obiwan and quigon.

Similarly, we see Luke leap incredibly fast in ESB, so of course Vader can move that fast, otherwise Luke would have been whooping his butt! LOL

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hey if we're going just by what we saw then I could argue it looked like a draw, and Dooku only escaped because he culdnt beat Yoda, not because he was losing.. You see how that works?? I don't see how that works. Yoda was clearly restraining himself in the force fight. In fact, Yoda did not even attack Dooku with the force besides redirecting Dooku's lightning. The entire force fight was mainly Yoda casually shrugging off Dooku's TK attacks.

Same reason he gave Ventress her lightsabers back, and was about to force a duel on her instead of capturing her while he had the chance. Maybe to teach Dooku that the dark side gave Dooku NO advantage over him.

Come on now. Yoda sent Sidious flying several feet with the force, and managed to redirect a senate pod at him so fast that Sidious was unable to stop it and barely escaped being crushed to death.

There is a huge gap between Yoda and Dooku in terms of power in the force.




The duel did not even last a minute before Dooku made his escape. Yoda's line "Fought well you have my old padawan" indicated the fight was to an end and Yoda was about to finish it. Dooku realised it and found a way to make his escape.

Besides, Dooku is an excellent sword fighter. One of the greatest in history.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So we see Sidious twirl and leap superfast in ROTS.

Super fast? Really? Nah.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We see Obiwan and Quigon run superfast in TPM

We do? Remind me again where this happens in the movie.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I wuldnt go by that.. Yoda also says "Powerful you have become Dooku,"

Dooku DID become powerful, just not powerful enough...


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and "Fought well you have my former padawan"

Dooku DID fought well, just not well enough...

Besides, this line sounds like Yoda's saying: "OK, u showed ur mad skillz, but we both know I'm gonna kick ur ass."


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst Dooku claims the Force fight was a draw, "Clearly this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the Force.."

Dooku has been shown to be extremely full of himself.
Plus, he's a Sith, they are not to be trusted, beware! .

no... we have a decision to make: Listen to Chee and throw out the EU... or ignore Chee and allow anything and everything to be canon?

Originally posted by truejedi
no... we have a decision to make: Listen to Chee and throw out the EU... or ignore Chee and allow anything and everything to be canon?

He didnt say eu isnt canon. He just says we ignore stuff (including feats) where they contradict the movies - the stuff Lucas has made himself.

I see...so... actually... Chee pwns all.
Then make everything canon, and Revan the god of it.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Super fast? Really? Nah.


Sidious doing sumersaults and twirls?? that stuff was super fast cgi man.


Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
We do? Remind me again where this happens in the movie.

When they're running from the destroyer droids. Beginning of the movie.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious doing sumersaults and twirls?? that stuff was super fast cgi man.


"super fast" nah, "cgi" yep

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


True dat, well at least faster than Sidious' sumersaults.

The point being we've seen Jedi move super fast, and we know Sidious is much faster. So having some Powerful Jedi/Sith moving at blinding speeds in novels is not contradicting what we've seen jedi/siths are capable of in the movies.

Originally posted by truejedi
no... we have a decision to make: Listen to Chee and throw out the EU... or ignore Chee and allow anything and everything to be canon?

I say we allow everything to be canon except for the stuff that directly contradicts higher forms of canon, appears to be largely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon, or appears to be largely unrealistic with respect to the majority of sources on the matter.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't see how that works. Yoda was clearly restraining himself in the force fight. In fact, Yoda did not even attack Dooku with the force besides redirecting Dooku's lightning. The entire force fight was mainly Yoda casually shrugging off Dooku's TK attacks.

Well isnt that mainly what he was doing against Sidious.. Redirecting his own force attacks at him, apart from the one force push when he got him off guard.

This from Dooku's profile at starwars.com:

"The Jedi Master Yoda confronted Dooku. The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other. It came down to a contest of lightsabers."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Same reason he gave Ventress her lightsabers back, and was about to force a duel on her instead of capturing her while he had the chance. Maybe to teach Dooku that the dark side gave Dooku NO advantage over him.

Yoda had already proved Ventress was absolutely no threat to him whatsoever.. Sabers or not, he could simply paralyze her. And it wasnt Yoda's mission there to capture Ventress.
It was his mission to capture Dooku.. And that was a particularly important mission considering it would have stopped the clone wars before they began.
I cant see any good reason at all for Yoda not to knock out Dooku with the Force if that was such an easy thing to do.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is a huge gap between Yoda and Dooku in terms of power in the force.

Im not so sure the gap is "huge." The quote above says the force battle was a titanic struggle.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I say we allow everything to be canon except for the stuff that directly contradicts higher forms of canon, appears to be largely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon, or appears to be largely unrealistic with respect to the majority of sources on the matter.


Yeah thats all Chee says. Thats why we have levels of canonicity.. And obviously Lucas's vision is what he shows in the movies, thats why thats the highest canon source.

I knew from day one ridiculous stuff like the force feats in the cw mini were way over the top, so thats no shocker to me.

It's common sense, yeah. People only want to disagree with it because they're argumentative.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It's common sense, yeah. People only want to disagree with it because they're argumentative.

Nuh uh

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well isnt that mainly what he was doing against Sidious.. Redirecting his own force attacks at him, apart from the one force push when he got him off guard. Yoda did not catch Sidious off guard. Sidious knew Yoda was there to kill him. Explain to me how Sidious was caught off guard. I'm pretty sure Sidious did not think Yoda was gonna stand up and preach to him.

Yoda also tried to crush Sidious with a senate pod, and nearly succeeded. Yoda did not try this with Dooku. Every object Dooku threw at him, Yoda threw it to the side.

Yoda did not best Dooku, but he really did not try his hardest. Yoda admitts to only wanting to capture Dooku, and it is automatic that Yoda would have to restrain himself to do this. When trying to kill your opponent, there is no holding back. You do anything you can when you can. Yoda had the opportunity to attack Dooku with TK attacks, but as you see he didn't. It was not like Dooku was overwhelming Yoda the way Sidious was with the senate pods.



But he still chose to duel with her instead of capturing her. No one said he can take Dooku out as easily with the force as he could Ventress. The point is he could have done a lot more just like he could have with Ventress, but he decided to duel instead.



So he let her escape because he was not there to capture her even though he had the opportunity?

I'm not arguing who was more important to capture. I'm saying he could have done more to capture them. Instead he decided to duel them.


He didn't even knock Ventress out with the force. Besides, who said it would be that easy for him to take Dooku out?



I'll check that out, but let me ask you this: Why did Yoda not use any TK attacks on Dooku like he did with Sidious when he had much more opportunity to do so? Is it because he couldn't?

You even said it yourself that if something contradicts the movie it is not canon. So what has changed now? Because that would be a huge contradiction.

The words "common sense" leads to problems. This is simply because no two people agree on what "common sense" is. It leads to name-calling. And this WILL lead to name-calling if we let it stand as is.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda did not catch Sidious off guard. Sidious knew Yoda was there to kill him. Explain to me how Sidious was caught off guard. I'm pretty sure Sidious did not think Yoda was gonna stand up and preach to him.

The force push caught him off guard.. why do you think he didnt defend himself.. Just like the Force lightning at the beginning caught Yoda off guard.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda also tried to crush Sidious with a senate pod, and nearly succeeded. Yoda did not try this with Dooku. Every object Dooku threw at him, Yoda threw it to the side.

The senate pod Sidious threw at him. So basically redirecting his own attacks.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda did not best Dooku, but he really did not try his hardest.

Then Yoda's a complete idiot, and the clone wars is all his fault.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda admitts to only wanting to capture Dooku, and it is automatic that Yoda would have to restrain himself to do this.

Just because your not going to kill someone does not mean you need to considerably hold back in defeating them. Did Anakin hold back when he defeat Dooku? No. Was he going for the kill? No. He decided to win. And thats exactly what he did.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When trying to kill your opponent, there is no holding back. You do anything you can when you can. Yoda had the opportunity to attack Dooku with TK attacks, but as you see he didn't.

Yoda was spending most the time defending himself from Dooku's attacks, which the novel says he did "Far from Easily".. Whe he had the oppurtunity to redirect one of the lightning blasts right back at Dooku, thats exactly what he did. So you cant say he didnt once try to attack Dooku. He doesnt HAVE TO attack him with TK, its his choice how he attacks, and FL tends to be more letal than TK neway.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It was not like Dooku was overwhelming Yoda the way Sidious was with the senate pods.

Hey hey I never said Dooku was a match for Yoda or Sidious. Im just saying theres not a HUGE gap between Dooku and Yoda, mainly in the Force. The quote from Dooku's profile clearly says they enagaged in a Titanic Force Struggle.. So they both struggled. Clearly Dooku struggled more than Yoda, but Yoda did struggle. He deflected Dooku's blasts "Far from easily", and was "exhausted" after their battle, and found his fight with Dooku to be good enough Saber practice for a long while.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But he still chose to duel with her instead of capturing her.

He never duelled her. He wasnt there to capture Ventress. It was the Toydarian home world, and the Toydarians choice if Yoda can take Ventress prisoner. He was there competing with her to on Toydarian turf respecting their rules remember.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So he let her escape because he was not there to capture her even though he had the opportunity?

He thought he already had her, she surprised him with the explosion. But either way that would have been entirely upto the Toydarians.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm not arguing who was more important to capture. I'm saying he could have done more to capture them. Instead he decided to duel them.

And im saying Dooku was far more important to capture. And that was his mission. He only stopped Ventress to stop her killing a toydarian, otherwise he had no intention of capturing her there. Wasnt his mission.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He didn't even knock Ventress out with the force.

He didnt need to! He had her completely paralyzed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Besides, who said it would be that easy for him to take Dooku out?

Thats what you imply when you say theres A HUGE difference in the 2 of them. Theres a HUGE difference in Dooku and Obiwan in the Force. Dooku just Force chokes him and paralyzes him. Theres a HUGE difference in Yoda and Ventress. He just Paralyzes her. Theres a HUGE difference in Dooku and Ventress, he has her choking on the floor by just lifting his finger. But theres not a HUGE difference between Yoda and Dooku. Thats actually a fight.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You even said it yourself that if something contradicts the movie it is not canon. So what has changed now? Because that would be a huge contradiction.

I have no idea what contradiction your going on about here. We are talking about a fight that happened in the movie.

Face it, pretty much the entire saga is filled with PIS moments. GL is both someone to be thanked (for bringing us Star Wars) and a complete turd (for ***king up the SW universe so bad). The entire SW universe needs a full reboot (ala the 2009 Star Trek movie) with a darker, grittier feel - and far more emphasis on the mystical side of the Force, rather than the cold, sterile scientific aspect that we get from the PT movies.

Uhm, DP... Dude... Jedi is plural as is. No Jedis, just Jedi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The force push caught him off guard.. why do you think he didnt defend himself.. Just like the Force lightning at the beginning caught Yoda off guard.

I'm not buying it, you mean to say that at 0:35 and 1:15 they weren't expecting an attack??

XdBOlED1zoA

Sidious: "And now you'll experience the full power of the Dark Side." *raises hands slowly*.

Yoda thinking: "Dudes got more wrinkles than me now." *Gets caught of guard by Force Lightning*.


---


Sidious thinking: "Well I bet he doesn't retaliate so I'll just count Jedi death numbers in my head now..."

Yoda: "Not if anything to say about it" *pauzes* "I have!"

Sidious: *Gets caught off guard*

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Face it, pretty much the entire saga is filled with PIS moments. GL is both someone to be thanked (for bringing us Star Wars) and a complete turd (for ***king up the SW universe so bad). The entire SW universe needs a full reboot (ala the 2009 Star Trek movie) with a darker, grittier feel - and far more emphasis on the mystical side of the Force, rather than the cold, sterile scientific aspect that we get from the PT movies.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Face it, pretty much the entire saga is filled with PIS moments. GL is both someone to be thanked (for bringing us Star Wars) and a complete turd (for ***king up the SW universe so bad). The entire SW universe needs a full reboot (ala the 2009 Star Trek movie) with a darker, grittier feel - and far more emphasis on the mystical side of the Force, rather than the cold, sterile scientific aspect that we get from the PT movies.

Not the entire SW universe need a reboot... But most definitely the PT.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhm, DP... Dude... Jedi is plural as is. No Jedis, just Jedi.

Noted for future reference.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I'm not buying it, you mean to say that at 0:35 and 1:15 they weren't expecting an attack??

XdBOlED1zoA

Sidious: "And now you'll experience the full power of the Dark Side." *raises hands slowly*.

Yoda thinking: "Dudes got more wrinkles than me now." *Gets caught of guard by Force Lightning*.


---


Sidious thinking: "Well I bet he doesn't retaliate so I'll just count Jedi death numbers in my head now..."

Yoda: "Not if anything to say about it" *pauzes* "I have!"

Sidious: *Gets caught off guard*

To be honest it did seem like thats what was going on in their heads!

I mean could Sidious have raised his hands any slower?! He even gave him warning "now u'll experience the full power of the dark side" To which Yoda seems to be thinking "yeah whatever"

Then Yoda warns Sidious "not if anything to say about it I have" to which Sidious thinks to himself "yeah lets see what you got.. go on.. free shot"

It's called "a bad script".

It's called George Lucas is a ***king dipshit, no-brained, ****tard who cares nothing for issues of continuity and logic as it relates to the SW universe. And I'd like to smash his ***king face (repeatedly) with a concrete cinder block.

Good. Your hate has made you powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The force push caught him off guard It didn't.

How do you know he didn't? This is not Harry Potter, they don't shout spells out before they do something. To me it looked like Sidious tried to block it and failed.

It didn't.


Yoda used the same tactic Sidious was using. Sidious tried to crush Yoda to death, and Yoda tried to crush Sidious to death. That is not how it happened with him and Dooku.

Yoda is very arrogant.

He thought he was gonna go in that fight showing Dooku that he was still the master force user and duelist, and then capture him. He underestimated Dooku. Dooku momentarily outsmarted Yoda and made his escape.

Yes you do hold back. They are fighting with lightsabers, any swing can be fatal if they are not careful. Yoda was trying to defeat Dooku without accidently killing him. So yeah, it takes more concentration and a lot more holding back. Anakin on the other hand had a deep hatred for Dooku, so I doubt he cared about killing him in mid-combat. That would not be on his conscience and he would not be looked down upon for it. But killing Dooku while unarmed and at his mercy is a totally different story.

I do not think Anakin went in that fight holding back the same way Yoda did. Anakin could careless about accidently killing Dooku. It just so happened that Anakin found an opening and cut Dooku's hands off before killing him. It is not like Anakin thought "I am going to cut his hands off" and then succeeded. You can not compare Anakin's fight with Dooku to Yoda's. Yoda also does not have the reach Anakin has for a move like that to be that simple.

You're acting as if Dooku was overwhelming Yoda and Yoda had no time to attack back. Yoda had the same opportunity as Dooku had. It's not like Dooku was overwhelming Yoda like Sidious was.


It was refering to Dooku's lightning attack. And it probably was not easy, but there was no way Dooku could overpower Yoda with his lightning.


I know

I never said that. I said he could have done a lot more.

He didn't have to with Sidious either but he still did. You know why? Because he was not holding back. He was trying to kill Sidious.


I agree. He CHOSE not to.


That depends on how TK is used.



When I say huge gap, I mean there is a noticeable difference. Dooku would need a long way to be on Yoda's level of strength and mastery in the force.


I am not saying Yoda did not struggle at all. But his battle with Sidious makes it very clear that he could have done a lot more to Dooku if he wanted. He managed to do more to Sidious than he did to Dooku although his chances were a lot slimmer with Sidious.

Well yeah. Dooku was a far greater duelist than most jedi in the order. What practice could they offer Yoda that Dooku could not. At that Dooku was actually trying to kill Yoda, so it was more than just casual practice. He was fighting for his own life while struggling to restrain himself so not to accidently kill Dooku.


No but he wanted to instead of just capturing her while he had the chance.

That was not his orginal purpose for his mission there, but his mission there was complete so there was no reason why he couldn't have captured her.


Come on now, DP. She tried to kill the king so I'm pretty sure there was no doubt in Yoda's mind that they wanted her captured.

Why did she suprise him with the explosion? Because she knew it was either that or be captured.


Again: It was not his mission but his mission was complete, so there was no reason to stop him. He let her go from his force hold on her because he CHOSE to. He gave her back her lightsabers and wanted to duel with her because he CHOSE to. Ventress surprised him with the explosion and made her escape because of this.


Exactly! It proves that he could have done more to capture her. It was that easy for Yoda to have captured her, but he CHOSE not to. It proves how easy Yoda could have killed her if he wanted.

Same way with Dooku. He could have done more to Dooku if he chose to, but he didn't. I am not saying he could have just walked in there, wave his hand, and knocked Dooku unconscience. Dooku is no Ventress, so of course it would take much more effort than it would for Ventress. The point is that he could have done a lot more to capture Dooku. Just like he could have actually captured Ventress when he had the chance but chose to teach her a lesson instead. It's called holding back.



There is a big gap in power between them. That does not mean Yoda can just wave his hand and knock Dooku out. I doubt even LOTF Luke could do that with that much ease.


Geez Luiz...

I was talking about your quote.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
To me it looked like Sidious tried to block it and failed.



Aaaand... what did he do that would make you think that?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Aaaand... what did he do that would make you think that? He put his hands out, but that could have been because the impact was that powerful. There is no way to tell. But I am certain he was not caught by surprise.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
It's called George Lucas is a ***king dipshit, no-brained, ****tard who cares nothing for issues of continuity and logic as it relates to the SW universe. And I'd like to smash his ***king face (repeatedly) with a concrete cinder block.

He's not wrote any of the EU. Not created it, not wrote it. Heck I bet he's not even flicked through it. So why would he care?! He's just made more money from it! Our money! But U know that poor guy can use an extra few dollars.

Sidious 66 our posts are getting ridiculously long.. So lets not babble nonesense and stick to a couple of main points.

You serioulsy think Yoda is arrogant?? Yoda the wisest of all jedi??

You'd honestly rather believe that than seeing Dooku as a challenge for Yoda wuld'nt you??

Look we both agree Yoda is greater than Dooku. Yoda > Dooku? Hell yeah. Yoda >>> Dooku? Nah I dnt believe that. Especially not in the Force. This is the guy who disposed of Obi-wan Kenobi with a mere flick of his wrist, while simultaneously kicking the chosen one half way across the room and onto his butt.

The quote from Dooku's profile clearly says it was a "titanic force struggle", so they both struggled in the Force fight.

Although I am willing to admit there is a greater difference in them in Saber Duelling, as according to the novel Yoda had Dooku skipping back desperately. But still all credit to Dooku for defending against the fastest and most powerful jedi for as long as he did.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's not wrote any of the EU. Not created it, not wrote it. Heck I bet he's not even flicked through it. So why would he care?! He's just made more money from it! Our money! But U know that poor guy can use an extra few dollars.

Even within the material with which he has influenced either firsthand or secondhand (i.e. novels, the CN Clone Wars series, the Clone Wars mini, TFU), corruption has crept in due to his greed and dumbassery.

Yoda did make the mistake of not finishing Sidious when he had him at his mercy after disarming him... Huge tactical error there.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious 66 our posts are getting ridiculously long.. So lets not babble nonesense and stick to a couple of main points.

You serioulsy think Yoda is arrogant?? Yoda the wisest of all jedi??

You'd honestly rather believe that than seeing Dooku as a challenge for Yoda wuld'nt you??

Look we both agree Yoda is greater than Dooku. Yoda > Dooku? Hell yeah. Yoda >>> Dooku? Nah I dnt believe that. Especially not in the Force. This is the guy who disposed of Obi-wan Kenobi with a mere flick of his wrist, while simultaneously kicking the chosen one half way across the room and onto his butt.

The quote from Dooku's profile clearly says it was a "titanic force struggle", so they both struggled in the Force fight.

Although I am willing to admit there is a greater difference in them in Saber Duelling, as according to the novel Yoda had Dooku skipping back desperately. But still all credit to Dooku for defending against the fastest and most powerful jedi for as long as he did.

Yes Yoda is very arrogant. That does not mean he is unwise, he is just very overconfident in his abilities. A good example of his arrogance is when he gave Ventress her sabers back instead of just finishing her off and taking her in when he had the chance.

And yes I believe Dooku is a challenge for Yoda. But giving someone a challenge does not make you close to that person's level. AOTC Anakin gave Dooku a bit of a struggle. Dooku did not just wave his hand and take him out. So would you say AOTC Anakin is close to Dooku's level?

Now before you start ranting and raving, no I am not saying the gap between Yoda and Dooku is as big as the gap between Dooku and AOTC Anakin. I am just making a point.

It's obvious you are a fan of Dooku. I'm not trying to down him or anything. He is a very powerful force user and one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in jedi and sith history.

You should take a look at the Savage Opress thread posted by Galan007 in the EU forums. Both Dooku and Savage's upcoming feats are quite impressive.

Originally posted by truejedi
Yoda did make the mistake of not finishing Sidious when he had him at his mercy after disarming him... Huge tactical error there.

Is that Canon? LOL.. Im getting fed up of working out whats canon and whats not!

It's in the script, which is within G-canon. Yoda disarmed Palpatine and then just, backed off for some reason.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


It's obvious you are a fan of Dooku. I'm not trying to down him or anything. He is a very powerful force user and one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in jedi and sith history.

You should take a look at the Savage Opress thread posted by Galan007 in the EU forums. Both Dooku and Savage's upcoming feats are quite impressive.

Im a big fan of ALL Sidious's apprentices.. Maul, Dooku and Vader.. They're all awsome! Not sexually frustrated tools like the jedi! But also not creepy old men like Sidious. Lol

And yes I cant wait for the Savage Opress episode. I think it will show us just how powerful Dooku, and possibly Maul really were.

Btw AOTC Anakin with 2 sabers was a threat to Dooku (in sabers).. The novel made that clear. Anakin has always been a threat to Dooku in Sabers only.

But all the quotes shows Yoda struggles against Dooku, and was exhausted. His own face expressions and breathing also shows that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Btw AOTC Anakin with 2 sabers was a threat to Dooku (in sabers).. The novel made that clear. Anakin has always been a threat to Dooku in Sabers only. No, it didn't make that clear. It made clear that Anakin was a challenge for Dooku. It notes Obi-Wan's admiration at Anakin's technical skills, but it also notes Dooku's "impossibly fast" reflexes in countering him. Not once is Dooku describe in any danger that he didn't easily counter. The only time it comes close is at the beginning when Anakin uses the Force to throw up an invisible wall blocking Dooku from leaving.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But all the quotes shows Yoda struggles against Dooku, and was exhausted. His own face expressions and breathing also shows that. Again, no it doesn't. All the quotes show he held the upper hand clearly throughout the entire duel, and Dooku was becoming more and more frustrated at his inability to do anything about it:

"Dooku went into a wild flurry, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan and Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide."

"With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow from him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.
Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately."

The entire duel is written like this. Dooku isn't given a single edge or advantage or moment of victory. And then he retreats. And then Yoda's called "exhausted".


And if someone has Dark Rendezvous handy, I believe that even on Vjun, with its natural Darkness flowing through Dooku, he still couldn't defeat Yoda.

This is obviously non-canon btw.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Again, no it doesn't. All the quotes show he held the upper hand clearly throughout the entire duel, and Dooku was becoming more and more frustrated at his inability to do anything about it:

"Dooku went into a wild flurry, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan and Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide."

"With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow from him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.
Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately."

Well you've missed Yoda's first attack where it says despite Yoda's ferocious attack "Dooku held strong though, his red blade parrying brilliantly.."

Not that it matters because iv already said the difference between them is more significant in the sabers department.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The entire duel is written like this. Dooku isn't given a single edge or advantage or moment of victory. And then he retreats. And then Yoda's called "exhausted".

Which shows that yeah Yoda was showing himself to be considerably ahead of Dooku in Sabers, but jumping around dominating Dooku did "Exhaust" him.

And it even though Yoda was going to win, it was taking him some time to get past Dooku's defences, which made Dooku later believe in DR that he and Yoda were equal on Vjun, and made Yoda admit in Schism that after his fight with Dooku he doesnt need any Saber practice for a while.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And if someone has Dark Rendezvous handy, I believe that even on Vjun, with its natural Darkness flowing through Dooku, he still couldn't defeat Yoda.

Thats true. But they didnt have a Force fight on Vjun. Only a Saber fight, which was much much closer there: "Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave ground.." And people seem to miss the fact that the darkness of Vjun was also making Yoda much more fierce than he usually is. And Yoda admitted there he was going for the the kill.

If I recall correctly, Yoda went there on the false pretense (from Dooku) of diplomacy. And although Yoda knew that there was a great possibility of treachery, he went anyways, with the intention of turning Dooku away from the darkside. I wish I still had the novel on hand, but I've read that scene a dozen times or more, and do not recall Yoda going there to "kill" Dooku. I do however recall Yoda saying something like "love you enough to kill you, I do." However, I seem to recall interpreting that in a way that doesn't necessarily mean he was TRYING to Kill Dooku. As amatter of fact, it seems (and I could be wrong) that at the end of their duel, Yoda is once again trying to capture Dooku. Does anyone have the entire section from their duel available to post?

In the entryway, Whirry was shifting from foot to foot in extremes of agitation.

"Please, Master! Don't let the Jedi steal my Baby again! Do something for me, for all my hard work, Master?"

Dooku glanced up.

"Do something for you?" His eyes flicked to Yoda and the lightsaber at the Jedi Master's belt. "Of course I'll do something for you."

With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock.

"You might want to help her," Dooku said.

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.

"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.

"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.

Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.

"Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "

Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.

"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.

"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.

Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.

"A choice made, have you, Count?"

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."

Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.

"So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."

Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.

"Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"

And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux.

With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon. Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens. The missile was coming in with terrible speed and power: too much coming at Yoda too fast ever to wholly stop it, even if he had time and perfect peace. But he reached out to pull up the Force binding even Vjun's bitter green moss and twisted thorn-trees, and let it flow through him like a wind: the breath of a world, gathered and released in a push-feather game with all their lives on the line, not to oppose the missile's force with force, but to touch it gently on the side-just enough to send it screaming by the broken window casement to plunge a kilometer offshore into the cold and waiting sea. A long instant later, water fountained from the ocean in a blaze of light three hundred meters tall, and then fell back. The chateau and all those inside it had been spared: but Dooku was gone.

Moments later, Yoda trotted down into what had once been the great entryway of Chateau Malreaux, now a shattered and smoking ruin.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
If I recall correctly, Yoda went there on the false pretense (from Dooku) of diplomacy. And although Yoda knew that there was a great possibility of treachery, he went anyways, with the intention of turning Dooku away from the darkside. I wish I still had the novel on hand, but I've read that scene a dozen times or more, and do not recall Yoda going there to "kill" Dooku. I do however recall Yoda saying something like "love you enough to kill you, I do." However, I seem to recall interpreting that in a way that doesn't necessarily mean he was TRYING to Kill Dooku. As amatter of fact, it seems (and I could be wrong) that at the end of their duel, Yoda is once again trying to capture Dooku. Does anyone have the entire section from their duel available to post?

"But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

So Dooku also did not go for the kill at that point. But they both made it clear that they were "willing" to kill.

This was Yoda confirming that: "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Note the "even here" meaning he was also willing to kill Dooku on Geonosis. Loves him enough, yes, loves a former jedi enough to give them the sweet release of death after joining the dark side, is what that sounds like to me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
AND Dooku remembers him being Yoda's equal in that fight,
Dooku is a fool.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
AND Yoda claims in Schism he had enough Saber practice with Dooku which was good enough practice for him for a long while.
He fought one of the greatest duelists ever, that seems enough practice indeed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So yes Yoda was winning the fight and was greater, but all that confirms it was a difficult fight for Yoda.
k.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
"and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold."
As you can see the dark air of Vjun also made Yoda more fierce than ever. And it was clearly a much closer Saber fight there.
Though it did not boost his power as it did to Dooku

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well we agree Yoda > Dooku, but not >>> And that Dooku does pose a challenge to him. So this is really just a debate about How Much of a Challenge Dooku poses.
k. I can see your point. Well Dooku is one of the most powerful sith lords ever so he obviously poses a challenge to anyone, maybe except FotJ Luke.

From the books and the movie, the way I think of it as like this

Relative to dooku and sidious for this comparison

Force powers
Yoda - 10
Dookus - 10

Sabers
Yoda - 9
Dooku - 8

Originally posted by Board Walker
From the books and the movie, the way I think of it as like this

Relative to dooku and sidious for this comparison

Force powers
Yoda - 10
Dookus - 10

Sabers
Yoda - 9
Dooku - 8 Maybe it's because you said it weird, but... are you putting Yoda on Dooku's level? Cuz if you are, you're putting the same Jedi Master who stymied Palpatine's Lightning barrage on the same level as Dooku--who feared and worshiped Sidious. The same Jedi master who out-did Dooku twice. And they're on the same level?

I'm thinking in the force, YOda/Sidious 9, Dooku 7, Mace 7, Anakin 7 in force usage as of ROTS. (Maul? 3...)

No... Maul is at least a 4.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Maybe it's because you said it weird, but... are you putting Yoda on Dooku's level? Cuz if you are, you're putting the same Jedi Master who stymied Palpatine's Lightning barrage on the same level as Dooku--who feared and worshiped Sidious. The same Jedi master who out-did Dooku twice. And they're on the same level?

I meant that to say "Relative to Dooku and Yoda"

Also, though Dooku feared Palpatine, it may have been in part due to that Palpatine instilled a sense of fear in his psyche in the very perception he had of Sidious.

Dooku came to worship the darkside in some ways, and sidious to him was the very embodiment of it. Yet against Yoda it showed and heavily hinted that their force powers (dooku and yoda) were relatively even to the point where a decisive winner would be indeterminable.

It could also be that Dooku was brazen in his combat aginst Yoda due to yoda being the light side, of which he now viewed as inferior to the dark side, thus a boost in confidence and why his force usage was on par with yoda.

However against Sidious the epitome of the darkside in dooku's perception, he may have viewed him with fear and envy, thus lowering his confidence and self perception.

Thus I do rank Dooku, Yoda as equals in direct combat force powers, same with sidious, all three of them are 10.

However in combat I see Dooku faring far worse in a force fight with Sidious, for the fact that sidious is a master of the dark side, to the point where he is darkness incarnate. All the darkside energy that empowers dooku would bear him little advantage against Sidious when it would only in part empower sidious (rage, fear, pain). Whereas it brings Dooku to even footing with yoda in terms of force power, to the fact that Yoda can not manipulate nor feed on the darkside as Sidious can.

All three of them are equals in the force, however their balance of lightside, and darkside is all different, thus they fare better and worse against one another individually separate from one another.

Dooku Vs Yoda = Draw

Sidious Vs Dooku = Sidious favor

Sidious vs. Yoda = Draw

It similar to making a comparison with Yoda, sidious and Windu, Windu would fare far worse against yoda, but would do much better against sidious due to that Windu's power set is forged specifically to combat heavily enriched darkness. Windu may be far less powerful in the force then Sidious, but due to Sidious being uniquely darkness incarnate, it adds as a plethora of power for Windu to channel and feed upon which brings him up to sidious level in some ways. Where as Windu fighting Yoda would have nothing to feed upon, and would far inferior to Yoda in the force.

Now compare Windu and Dooku, who are stated to be equals by Yoda, and even goes on to state that if Windu were to battle Dooku (reference to present times not pre CW), that windu at best would be able to draw. Windu himself states when contemplating if to assassinate Dooku, that at best he would die doing so.

I see Dooku as Windu's superior in the froce, and equal in sabers, Windu would not have the same advantage over Dooku he would over sidious. Dooku channels some dark side energies, but not all, he also channels much of the light side still, thus Windu would have much less to feed upon and empower himself with. That and Dooku unlike Sidious, does not depend upon hate, rage, and fear to empower himself, he is calm, calculative and limits emotion.

Dooku Compared to Windu
Dooku force - 10
Wndu force - 8
Dooku Sabers - 9
Windu Sabers - 9

Originally posted by Board Walker
I meant that to say "Relative to Dooku and Yoda"

Also, though Dooku feared Palpatine, it may have been in part due to that Palpatine instilled a sense of fear in his psyche in the very perception he had of Sidious.

Dooku came to worship the darkside in some ways, and sidious to him was the very embodiment of it. Yet against Yoda it showed and heavily hinted that their force powers (dooku and yoda) were relatively even to the point where a decisive winner would be indeterminable.

It could also be that Dooku was brazen in his combat aginst Yoda due to yoda being the light side, of which he now viewed as inferior to the dark side, thus a boost in confidence and why his force usage was on par with yoda.

However against Sidious the epitome of the darkside in dooku's perception, he may have viewed him with fear and envy, thus lowering his confidence and self perception.

Thus I do rank Dooku, Yoda as equals in direct combat force powers, same with sidious, all three of them are 10.

However in combat I see Dooku faring far worse in a force fight with Sidious, for the fact that sidious is a master of the dark side, to the point where he is darkness incarnate. All the darkside energy that empowers dooku would bear him little advantage against Sidious when it would only in part empower sidious (rage, fear, pain). Whereas it brings Dooku to even footing with yoda in terms of force power, to the fact that Yoda can not manipulate nor feed on the darkside as Sidious can.

All three of them are equals in the force, however their balance of lightside, and darkside is all different, thus they fare better and worse against one another individually separate from one another.

Dooku Vs Yoda = Draw

Sidious Vs Dooku = Sidious favor

Sidious vs. Yoda = Draw

It similar to making a comparison with Yoda, sidious and Windu, Windu would fare far worse against yoda, but would do much better against sidious due to that Windu's power set is forged specifically to combat heavily enriched darkness. Windu may be far less powerful in the force then Sidious, but due to Sidious being uniquely darkness incarnate, it adds as a plethora of power for Windu to channel and feed upon which brings him up to sidious level in some ways. Where as Windu fighting Yoda would have nothing to feed upon, and would far inferior to Yoda in the force.

Now compare Windu and Dooku, who are stated to be equals by Yoda, and even goes on to state that if Windu were to battle Dooku (reference to present times not pre CW), that windu at best would be able to draw. Windu himself states when contemplating if to assassinate Dooku, that at best he would die doing so.

I see Dooku as Windu's superior in the froce, and equal in sabers, Windu would not have the same advantage over Dooku he would over sidious. Dooku channels some dark side energies, but not all, he also channels much of the light side still, thus Windu would have much less to feed upon and empower himself with. That and Dooku unlike Sidious, does not depend upon hate, rage, and fear to empower himself, he is calm, calculative and limits emotion.

Dooku Compared to Windu
Dooku force - 10
Wndu force - 8
Dooku Sabers - 9
Windu Sabers - 9 Uh huh.

Yoda?Dooku.
Yoda>Mace.
Yoda?Sidious.

Dooku wouldn't stalemate Yoda... Yoda is the most powerful foe the darkness had ever seen. And Yoda stalemated one who is more powerful than Dooku. I know, it's ABC. But consider that Dooku ran away from Yoda and that Dooku is Mace's equal (who is less powerful than Yoda).

And that when an incredibly powerful Sith idolizes and fears another, it's not because he's secretly on par with him.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Dooku wouldn't stalemate Yoda... Yoda is the most powerful foe the darkness had ever seen. And Yoda stalemated one who is more powerful than Dooku. I know, it's ABC. But consider that Dooku ran away from Yoda and that Dooku is Mace's equal (who is less powerful than Yoda).

I did not state Yoda would defeat Dooku in a no hold bars duel, my analysis was purely for Force comparison. And fighting relative to the characters depending upon their power set, Dooku would fare far better against Yoda, then would Windu.

Dooku also has the potential to kill Yoda, the difference between yoda, sidious and Dooku is so small, that it comes down to their relative preferences that give one an advantage over the other.

For a pure fight to the death between dooku and yoda, I see both dying, or one dying slightly before the other while the other dies shortly after from wounds. Yoda 53/ 47 Dooku in terms of bets, but its so small either could kill the other.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I did not state Yoda would defeat Dooku in a no hold bars duel, my analysis was purely for Force comparison. And fighting relative to the characters depending upon their power set, Dooku would fare far better against Yoda, then would Windu.

Dooku also has the potential to kill Yoda, the difference between yoda, sidious and Dooku is so small, that it comes down to their relative preferences that give one an advantage over the other.

For a pure fight to the death between dooku and yoda, I see both dying, or one dying slightly before the other while the other dies shortly after from wounds. Yoda 53/ 47 Dooku in terms of bets, but its so small either could kill the other. The difference between Yoda and Sidious is so small that a change of scenario could well warrant a victory for Yoda. The difference between Yoda and Dooku is so great that Dooku f*cked off twice from a fight with him, despite deep immersion in to the Dark Side the second time around. If his offensive powers were so on par with Yoda, he'd utilize them, and he'd win. They're not. And neither are his saber abilities.

Yeah, Dooku lost the battle on Vjun? (for some reason I cannot remember the planet...) (Cestus, like the book?)anyway.

Dooku stacked the odds and still lost to Yoda. Yoda is much greater than Dooku. It is Yoda and Sidious who are close. I don't see ANYTHING that suggests Dooku is on their level.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The difference between Yoda and Sidious is so small that a change of scenario could well warrant a victory for Yoda. The difference between Yoda and Dooku is so great that Dooku f*cked off twice from a fight with him, despite deep immersion in to the Dark Side the second time around. If his offensive powers were so on par with Yoda, he'd utilize them, and he'd win. They're not. And neither are his saber abilities.

Dooku did not fight to the death, because yoda had the advantage, as I said 53/47 in yoda's favor. Dooku was calculative not brazenly rash, he had a war to lead, and risking his death would be risking the entire war.

Additionally, dooku would be likely unable to kill yoda in the force due to them being so on par with one another in the far. The same goes for yoda, in that he would be unable to kill dooku with the force, it would come down to sabers.

I see yoda as a 10, while dooku is a 9, yes yoda is stronger in sabers, but the difference is so small dooku could very well kill yoda just as likely he could kill dooku;

If both dooku and yoda were to both fight to the death, and dooku had no care for a sake of leading a war, I could see it being very close, force powers would be negligible due to them being so close, it would come down to saber skill which both are so close it would be close, with yoda slight advantage,

Originally posted by Board Walker
Dooku did not fight to the death, because yoda had the advantage, as I said 53/47 in yoda's favor. Dooku was calculative not brazenly rash, he had a war to lead, and risking his death would be risking the entire war.

Additionally, dooku would be likely unable to kill yoda in the force due to them being so on par with one another in the far. The same goes for yoda, in that he would be unable to kill dooku with the force, it would come down to sabers.

I see yoda as a 10, while dooku is a 9, yes yoda is stronger in sabers, but the difference is so small dooku could very well kill yoda just as likely he could kill dooku;

Well, I don't know why you see it that way.... Every indication is that Dooku can't handle Yoda. I think you might be overstating Dooku's abilities just a tad.

Originally posted by truejedi
Well, I don't know why you see it that way.... Every indication is that Dooku can't handle Yoda. I think you might be overstating Dooku's abilities just a tad.

possibly so, my opinions change often, I do think Yoda would kill Dooku more often the not, and feel that if dooku would have stayed on Vjun fighting it would have been a great risk to his life.

I'm just saying, I think Dooku could pull a upset, thats the level of relative closeness they are (not saying they are too close, but relatively on the same tier where dooku can actually hurt and kill yoda). Where as I would see Maul as being near impossible of hurting and kill yoda.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Dooku did not fight to the death, because yoda had the advantage, as I said 53/47 in yoda's favor. Dooku was calculative not brazenly rash, he had a war to lead, and risking his death would be risking the entire war.

Additionally, dooku would be likely unable to kill yoda in the force due to them being so on par with one another in the far. The same goes for yoda, in that he would be unable to kill dooku with the force, it would come down to sabers.

I see yoda as a 10, while dooku is a 9, yes yoda is stronger in sabers, but the difference is so small dooku could very well kill yoda just as likely he could kill dooku;

If both dooku and yoda were to both fight to the death, and dooku had no care for a sake of leading a war, I could see it being very close, force powers would be negligible due to them being so close, it would come down to saber skill which both are so close it would be close, with yoda slight advantage, The AotC novel clearly states how very unable Dooku was to get anywhere near Yoda with a saber. I recently quoted half the duel. He delved deep in to the Force and still couldn't come anywhere close to Yoda with a blade. And that "contest (could) not be decided by (their) knowledge of the Force" not because they were "on par". But because Dooku couldn't defeat Yoda with the Force.

Yoda never attacked Dooku with the force. Considering he blocked everything Dooku threw at him with ease, Dooku is lucky Yoda didn't.

I will admit then dooku is inferior in the force to Yoda, but I suppose through skill and relative high force power he is able to hold out for some time and give yoda a hard fight?

Force powers
Yoda - 10
Dooku - 9

Sabers
Yoda - 10
Dooku - 9

?

Originally posted by truejedi
Yeah, Dooku lost the battle on Vjun? (for some reason I cannot remember the planet...) (Cestus, like the book?)anyway
I've been over this some time ago. I fail to see how Dooku lost their battle on Vjun.


But here's the question: Why didn't he do it? Why did he jump into a lightsaber duel if he could've just taken him out with the force?

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
I've been over this some time ago. I fail to see how Dooku lost their battle on Vjun. He wasn't killed or he wasn't captured, but he was clearly getting overpowered, which is why he launched the missile.


Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
But here's the question: Why didn't he do it? Why did he jump into a lightsaber duel if he could've just taken him out with the force?
Go back and read through the post. This question has already been addressed.

He said "I planned to launch the missile if I couldn't defeat you." And then he launched the missile. That tells me he couldn't defeat him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He wasn't killed or he wasn't captured, but he was clearly getting overpowered, which is why he launched the missile.
Dooku was being pushed back slowly, yes, but at the same time he was described as "countering Yoda's every move".
He launched the missile because Kenobi and Anakin were about to arrive on the scenery and if that had happened his chances of escape would've dropped to 0%.


Still can't see it for some reason.

Originally posted by truejedi
He said "I planned to launch the missile if I couldn't defeat you." And then he launched the missile. That tells me he couldn't defeat him.
Just because he didn't defeat Yoda, it does not mean he lost the duel. There is a third option.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Dooku was being pushed back slowly, yes, but at the same time he was described as "countering Yoda's every move".
He launched the missile because Kenobi and Anakin were about to arrive on the scenery and if that had happened his chances of escape would've dropped to 0%. You have to remember Dooku had more advantages in this duel than Yoda. He had the element of surprise, he had a power boost that he was able to take full advantage of from the dark side nexus, and they were fighting in his territory (a separatist strong hold). All this and he was still forced to flee.


Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Still can't see it for some reason. Well it's there, trust me. I'm not going over all that again.


Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Just because he didn't defeat Yoda, it does not mean he lost the duel. There is a third option. What are you saying?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You have to remember Dooku had more advantages in this duel than Yoda. He had the element of surprise, he had a power boost that he was able to take full advantage of from the dark side nexus, and they were fighting in his territory (a separatist strong hold). All this and he was still forced to flee.
This is irrelevant. We're not discussing how the fight would've played out if Dooku hadn't had those advantages; we're discussing if Dooku lost the given duel or not.


Then I guess it wasn't much of a good point if you don't even have the courage to quote it.


If the fight had dragged on, Yoda's Ataru, arguably the physically most demanding form due to it's flips and spins, would've become weaker and weaker. Yoda has to take out his opponents fast (which he couldn't do in this case) or face the consequences later. Dooku on the other hand got a constant force boost from Vjun, which combined with his power-efficient Makashi geared him to a long battle.
That's why I think Dooku's chances of victory were quite high there. But as things went now, it was a stalemate.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
This is irrelevant. We're not discussing how the fight would've played out if Dooku hadn't had those advantages; we're discussing if Dooku lost the given duel or not.




Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
If the fight had dragged on, Yoda's Ataru, arguably the physically most demanding form due to it's flips and spins, would've become weaker and weaker. Yoda has to take out his opponents fast (which he couldn't do in this case) or face the consequences later. Dooku on the other hand got a constant force boost from Vjun, which combined with his power-efficient Makashi geared him to a long battle.
That's why I think Dooku's chances of victory were quite high there. But as things went now, it was a stalemate. This is irrelevant. We're not discussing how the fight would've played out if Yoda's Ataru had failed; we're discussing if Yoda won the given duel or not.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


Trust me theres nothing there. Iv asked that question many times and got nothing, and if I did get a reply it was nothing but vague and unsupported speculation.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You have to remember Dooku had more advantages in this duel than Yoda.

Yes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He had the element of surprise,

Not really. Yoda always knew it was probably a trap. And when Dooku threw the innocent, Yoda noted Dooku had a chance to kill him but didnt take it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
he had a power boost that he was able to take full advantage of from the dark side nexus,

Yes. He needed some advantage to be Yoda's equal in Sabers. But lets not forget the Darkness of Vjun was also making Yoda far more ruthless than usual.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What are you saying?

That it was a Draw maybe??

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This is irrelevant. We're not discussing how the fight would've played out if Yoda's Ataru had failed; we're discussing if Yoda won the given duel or not.
Yes, that's why I wrote that last sentence, mkay?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes.
Mmhmm...



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Yoda always knew it was probably a trap. And when Dooku threw the innocent, Yoda noted Dooku had a chance to kill him but didnt take it.

He didn't kill him because he couldn't. Notice how Yoda also says that he has faced and survived many dangerous situations throughout his long life. He was letting Dooku know that Dooku's chances of killing him were very very slim.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes. He needed some advantage to be Yoda's equal in Sabers. But lets not forget the Darkness of Vjun was also making Yoda far more ruthless than usual.
He wasn't Yoda's equal though. Not even close. That's why he ran.

Yoda was also trying to calm himself during the duel. He was not taking full advantage of the dark side nexus the way Dooku was. And it never said it was making Yoda FAR more ruthless than usual. You're exaggerrating.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That it was a Draw maybe??

But we know it wasn't. Dooku ran.... both times.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


He didn't kill him because he couldn't. Notice how Yoda also says that he has faced and survived many dangerous situations throughout his long life. He was letting Dooku know that Dooku's chances of killing him were very very slim.

Yoda says you should have killed me when you had the chance.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

He wasn't Yoda's equal though. Not even close. That's why he ran.

Not even close?! How do you figure. He parried Yoda's every blow, and his blows came very close to hitting Yoda.
Him running has already been explained to you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

You're exaggerrating.

"in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold"

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do"

"In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly."

As you can see, I wasnt exaggerating at all.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

But we know it wasn't. Dooku ran.... both times.

Enough with the running. Its been explained to you many times but you have a one track mind. So Yoda ran from Sidious, because Sidious was clearly more powerful right? And Yoda was scared of him right?

Its called a tactical retreat when you know your not gna win, so its time to leave.

Dooku taunts Anakin and he crumbles. Then Kenobi gets stomped.