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death has no jurisdiction over the pheonix force, thus she is powerless

I hate threads involving the Endless.

Phoenix certainly wouldn't be able to beat Death, though.

Originally posted by Galan007
I hate threads involving the Endless.

Phoenix certainly wouldn't be able to beat Death, though.

What are some of Death (from the Endless') feats?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
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where is that from?

Originally posted by zopzop
What are some of Death (from the Endless') feats? Death of the Endless is an abstract concept. She doesn't need any high-end feats for me to know Phoenix couldn't beat her.

That is not to say I think she could beat Phoenix either.

Originally posted by Galan007
Death of the Endless is an abstract concept. She doesn't need any high-end feats for me to know Phoenix couldn't beat her.

That is not to say I think she could beat Phoenix either. and why can't phoenix beat death?

Originally posted by Galan007
Death of the Endless is an abstract concept. She doesn't need any high-end feats for me to know Phoenix couldn't beat her.

That is not to say I think she could beat Phoenix either.

So basically nothing impressive on panel?

lucifer morningstar was going to kill her for killing him

Originally posted by Galan007
Death of the Endless is an abstract concept. She doesn't need any high-end feats for me to know Phoenix couldn't beat her.

That is not to say I think she could beat Phoenix either.

wasn't she scared of lucifer and say that he could kill her if he wanted to?

they are opposite forces. They cancel out and no one wins. One is life. One is death.

Originally posted by Galan007
Death of the Endless is an abstract concept. She doesn't need any high-end feats for me to know Phoenix couldn't beat her.

That is not to say I think she could beat Phoenix either.

But as an abstract concept Deaths existence is dependant on reality otherwise Death has no meaning.

Jean just atomizes reality or makes everyone immortal

like they did in cancerverse

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
like they did in cancerverse

Exactly. To deal with a conceptual being you either destroy reality or make the concept they represent meaningless

If you were to make everyone immortal Eternity or Tribunal would step in due to imbalance. Brings too many outside forces into play that understand the natural order and the combination of those forces even the mortal ones would be enough to stop Phoenix. Forces would include every sorcerer from Strange to Doom. Most high level demons like Mephisto, who would suddenly be pissed due to the souls they would no longer be able to obtain. Just no feasible way Phoenix would be able to do that without other forces stepping in and saying No... GTFO. Even the phoenix has it's limits.

@Uriel005

Dude they killed off Death and made everyone immortal in the "cancerverse" like Colossus said and no one did anything about it. Not the LT, not the Demon Lords, no one.

Originally posted by zopzop
@Uriel005

Dude they killed off Death and made everyone immortal in the "cancerverse" like Colossus said and no one did anything about it. Not the LT, not the Demon Lords, no one.

true but in 616 generally if anything universe threatening happens LT and Eternity have a habit of stepping in whereas eternity analogues don't in other universes. I mean there have been several universes that have been utterly annihilated and LT has done nothing but in 616 there have been times when its only a galactic level threat at best and eternity has stepped in. 616 as the mainstream universe in Marvel has to keep going unlike spinoff universes so if the fight were to take place in the 616 universe than phoenix wouldn't be able to do it IMO and also cancerverse was loaded with PIS and low showings of characters who should have wiped the thing out before it ever became an issue. Galactus at the least should have UN the whole event and the watcher overseeing the damn thing could have stopped Sentry in the first place and stopped the whole thing before it ever happened but he didn't so meh. But in 616 universe I'm fairly certain that if the phoenix tried something like that she would be stopped by a host of characters and abstract level beings.

Originally posted by Uriel005
true but in 616 generally if anything universe threatening happens LT and Eternity have a habit of stepping in whereas eternity analogues don't in other universes. I mean there have been several universes that have been utterly annihilated and LT has done nothing but in 616 there have been times when its only a galactic level threat at best and eternity has stepped in. 616 as the mainstream universe in Marvel has to keep going unlike spinoff universes so if the fight were to take place in the 616 universe than phoenix wouldn't be able to do it IMO and also cancerverse was loaded with PIS and low showings of characters who should have wiped the thing out before it ever became an issue. Galactus at the least should have UN the whole event and the watcher overseeing the damn thing could have stopped Sentry in the first place and stopped the whole thing before it ever happened but he didn't so meh. But in 616 universe I'm fairly certain that if the phoenix tried something like that she would be stopped by a host of characters and abstract level beings.

What does any of this have to do with a forum battle?

No one else is involved in such battles, its these characters in isolation from everything else. Just them, the environment and whatever resources it has in it. Thats that.

By your logic most forum battles waged would feature the police, intervening superhero teams, or SHIELD. Thats not how it works.

lol thanos would lose alot of matches because of the nypd

It's hard to gauge the power of the Endless because they don't have combative feats...but the implied power of Death is very, very large. And I'd say that Death of the Endless>>>>616 Marvel Death by a comfortable margin.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Exactly. To deal with a conceptual being you either destroy reality or make the concept they represent meaningless

actually if i recall correctly Death of the Endless was one of the earliest ones "born" of the 7...and all 7 were "born" before any life was in the universe...so yeah.

@Power Cosmic II

Implied? Ugh. It doesn't really have to be combat feats. It can be "creation" feats too. For example, creating planets/solar systems/galaxies/universes. Or even "utility" feats. For example, teleporting/moving/manipulating reality, energy or matter on a galactic scale.

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
all 7 were "born" before any life was in the universe...so yeah.

How can there be Death when nothing was alive to have died yet?

Originally posted by zopzop
@Power Cosmic II

Implied? Ugh. It doesn't really have to be combat feats. It can be "creation" feats too. For example, creating planets/solar systems/galaxies/universes. Or even "utility" feats. For example, teleporting/moving/manipulating reality, energy or matter on a galactic scale.

Since when does Death (of any publisher, not just Vertigo) create?

She killed another member of the endless (one of the more powerful ones) with a touch of her finger.

That's analogous to Oblivion killing Eternity with a touch of his finger.

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
Since when does Death (of any publisher, not just Vertigo) create?

It doesn't have to be a creation of life.



Uhm no. Eternity's been anything from the supreme Time being to the sum total of the universe. That's nothing like any Endless. It'd be more like Death (Marvel) killing an abstract like Lord Chaos or Mistress Hate.

Originally posted by zopzop
How can there be Death when nothing was alive to have died yet?

Each of the Endless predate creation...their power is pretty much supreme with the exception of high angels and lucifer

Originally posted by zopzop
It doesn't have to be a creation of life.



Uhm no. Eternity's been anything from the supreme Time being to the sum total of the universe. That's nothing like any Endless. It'd be more like Death (Marvel) killing an abstract like Lord Chaos or Mistress Hate.

No...Dream of the Endless has more jurisdiction over the DC/Vertigo universe than Chaos or Hate have in the MU. That's why I likened it to Eternity, not what they actually represent.

an oblivion empowered avatar killed another abstract pretty easy

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
Each of the Endless predate creation...their power is pretty much supreme with the exception of high angels and lucifer

I understand but it makes zero sense. Death isn't Oblivion (unless it's different in DC). You can have Oblivion without needing anything living to die. But Death doesn't have that luxury.

Originally posted by zopzop
I understand but it makes zero sense. Death isn't Oblivion (unless it's different in DC). You can have Oblivion without needing anything living to die. But Death doesn't have that luxury.

you're missing the whole crux of what i'm saying.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
an oblivion empowered avatar killed another abstract pretty easy

Are you talking about Maelstrom and Anomaly? I think Maelstrom just killed his M-body Colossus. In a later issue of Quasar, Anomaly is seen "alive' and pissed at Quasar for invoking his attributes (when he fought Maelstrom in the Black Hole) without his permission.

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
No...Dream of the Endless has more jurisdiction over the DC/Vertigo universe than Chaos or Hate have in the MU. That's why I likened it to Eternity, not what they actually represent.

How can that be? The LT said that Eternity was "supreme" in the universe before the discovery of the Infinity Gems. Unless Dream is "supreme" in the universe in DC, then I have no point.

where does nekron, black flash, black racer fit with death of the endless?

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
Since when does Death (of any publisher, not just Vertigo) create?

She killed another member of the endless (one of the more powerful ones) with a touch of her finger.

That's analogous to Oblivion killing Eternity with a touch of his finger.
All of the Endless have some power over their opposites, in Death's case life.

Also look at Destruction, he tries to be creative all the time, he just kind of sucks at it.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
where does nekron, black flash, black racer fit with death of the endless?
Beneath her.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean just atomizes reality or makes everyone immortal Except she's never done either of those on panel.... And even if she could (because I'm sure you'll mention the 'feat' from New X-Men #154 and try to make it of equal value to what you mentioned... A part of the debate I have no interest in, btw), it is certainly NOT in character for her to 'atomize realities' or make everyone in a given reality 'immortal'.

Plus this is an arena setting. It'd only be Phoenix and Death, with no external factors to manipulate. No one wins this. srsly

Originally posted by Galan007
Except she's never done either of those on panel.... And even if she could (because I'm sure you'll mention the 'feat' from New X-Men #154 and try to make it of equal value to what you mentioned... A part of the debate I have no interest in, btw), it is certainly NOT in character for her to 'atomize realities' or make everyone in a given reality 'immortal'.

Plus this is an arena setting. It'd only be Phoenix and Death, with no external factors to manipulate. No one wins this. srsly the voice of reason as always

i think this wud be a split for sure.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What does any of this have to do with a forum battle?

No one else is involved in such battles, its these characters in isolation from everything else. Just them, the environment and whatever resources it has in it. Thats that.

By your logic most forum battles waged would feature the police, intervening superhero teams, or SHIELD. Thats not how it works.

By stating a win by turning everyone else into immortals kind of by default brings in a whole bunch of people into the fight.

Originally posted by zopzop
How can there be Death when nothing was alive to have died yet?
Destiny is considered the oldest of the endless and delirium the youngest.

Tim Hunter while being cared for and lying in a field found out that it was Death that holds the world(s) together. That image is found in Action Comics 894 where Didi shows up and talks to Lex. Don't think anyone would 'win' in this.

Originally posted by Galan007
Except she's never done either of those on panel.... And even if she could (because I'm sure you'll mention the 'feat' from New X-Men #154 and try to make it of equal value to what you mentioned... A part of the debate I have no interest in, btw), it is certainly NOT in character for her to 'atomize realities' or make everyone in a given reality 'immortal'.

Plus this is an arena setting. It'd only be Phoenix and Death, with no external factors to manipulate. No one wins this. srsly

Phoenix wins.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But as an abstract concept Deaths existence is dependant on reality otherwise Death has no meaning.

Jean just atomizes reality or makes everyone immortal

GS, did you get my PM?

Yeah, no one wins.

This is basically Life VS Death, in literal terms.

Originally posted by Galan007
Except she's never done either of those on panel.... And even if she could (because I'm sure you'll mention the 'feat' from New X-Men #154 and try to make it of equal value to what you mentioned... A part of the debate I have no interest in, btw), it is certainly NOT in character for her to 'atomize realities' or make everyone in a given reality 'immortal'.

Plus this is an arena setting. It'd only be Phoenix and Death, with no external factors to manipulate. No one wins this. srsly

Maybe the Phoenix Force can make Death immortal by giving her life. Eh nevermind, Death gives the PF death and removes the PF's immortality using an EMP. Eureka!

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
lucifer morningstar was going to kill her for killing him

The same guy that took a multiverse blast and survived? The same guy that Morpheus said was the most powerful being creation of the Presence and far above the him in power? Common now, Galactus was going to kill the Phoenix Force and end the cycles of rebirth of the universe. Lucifer has more than enough power to stomp the Phoenix Force. It's not a low feat for Death when Lucifer made his threat.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
like they did in cancerverse

They did no such thing in the Cancerverse. They didn't remove death by making everyone immortal. Everyone became immortal by using an unknown mystical ritual to sacrifice death's avatar and removed Death.

And even immortals can die. Ask Galactus or the Elder of the Universe. Further evidence comes from Thanos Imperative where Thanos permanently killed the Defenders of the Realm and Drax, the avatar of life, in the Cancerverse.

If an avatar of death can put down immortals, Death herself should be able to negate any immortality given to the universe.

If DC's/Vertigo's Death or whathaveyou is like unto Marvel's Mistress Death,
then that Death wins,
since the PF is peanuts next to the members of the Marvel cosmic heirarchy.