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Kratos gets his blades, the golden fleece, typhons bane, rage of sparta, and nothing else.

VS

Akuma and Gouken


Fight takes place in a circular jungle, 10 miles in diameter. if one of the guys on team two loses, their partner may continue to fight. First entire team to die, loses.

how the hell is he supposed to win?

Id venture Kratos for the weaponry.

Isn't Rage of Sparta little more than Kratos just getting really pissed off (a bit redundant, I know) while using the Blade of Olympus? Going by the functions, he is virutually invulnerable (even if you get turned to stone for example, you break out immediately), and the only other time that happened in GoWIII is when he rediscovered Hope. I'm not saying that I think that's putting two and two together, since there wasn't really any kind of foreshadowing to something like that in the story (whereas it could be argued that Hope was a subject since the beginning of the series).

That, and Rage of Sparta by gameplay standards is used with only the Blade of Olympus.

Kratos still probably wins.

Is faster in reaction-time at the very least, is a GREAT deal stronger and more durable, and... Well really that is all that matters to be honest. Kratos ftw.

Originally posted by Sappho
Kratos gets his blades, the golden fleece, typhons bane, rage of sparta, and nothing else.

VS

Akuma and Gouken


Fight takes place in a circular jungle, 10 miles in diameter. if one of the guys on team two loses, their partner may continue to fight. First entire team to die, loses.

By giving Kratos the RoS, you've given him the Blade of Olympus as well, along with increased durability/tanking and speed.

He uses the BoO to one-shot them.

Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
Isn't Rage of Sparta little more than Kratos just getting really pissed off (a bit redundant, I know) while using the Blade of Olympus? Going by the functions, he is virutually invulnerable (even if you get turned to stone for example, you break out immediately), and the only other time that happened in GoWIII is when he rediscovered Hope.

He still takes damage, albeit at a lower rate. The 'invulnerability' comes from his ability to just walk through attacks that would normally stun him.

Are their chances noticeably better if they tag-team him?

^I thought that was already the idea behind this fight; 2 against 1 at the same time.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kratos still probably wins.

Is faster in reaction-time at the very least, is a GREAT deal stronger and more durable, and... Well really that is all that matters to be honest. Kratos ftw.

Didn't you say that they had leveled a mountain with their Hadoukens? I mean yeah, that doesn't necessarily speak strictly for their physical strength and all (I've also always been on the assumption that sinking that island had something to do with like, ki energy amping up the strike as opposed to just raw strength).

But yeah, I'd say some scenes in GoS add plenty more to Kratos' potential for tanking feats (SPOILERS): He was blown out of an erupting volcano and was unscathed after crashing into a city miles away, sucked into a giant whirlpool made by a pissed off Poseidon, came back from a pretty serious beating at the hands of Deimos (who was more or less as strong as him, but apparently less durable), and took a lot of punishment from Thanatos near the end of the fight until being saved by Deimos, who ended up getting killed in half the time from the same kind of punishement (which pissed Kratos off to the limit, with his Thera's Bane power-up amping him to a nearly invulnerable state in which he sodomized Thanatos).

Thought they were all separated in the forest.

Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
Didn't you say that they had leveled a mountain with their Hadoukens? I mean yeah, that doesn't necessarily speak strictly for their physical strength and all (I've also always been on the assumption that sinking that island had something to do with like, ki energy amping up the strike as opposed to just raw strength) Do not want spoilers, only answering this.

Kratos physically matched and even overpowered Hercules, who in the GoW canon did what Altas did, held up the world. That alone puts his physical power beyond even their ki amped power.

for the sake of the thread, no blade of olympus. for rage of sparta, i just meant the feats that come with it.

^ Wasn't the mountain busting thing in the manga only? Or is the manga canon?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Are their chances noticeably better if they tag-team him?

Dunno if it's 'noticeably' better, but it's certainly better.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
^ Wasn't the mountain busting thing in the manga only? Or is the manga canon? It was manga, but I am PRETTY sure it is one of the "canon abilities, not canon story" deals that tends to go with Capcom fighters.

Will look into this though.

Tomorrow...

Originally posted by Sappho
for the sake of the thread, no blade of olympus. for rage of sparta, i just meant the feats that come with it.

He has never had to use it in cutscenes whatsoever though.

It has no feats unless you count gameplay.

Also, why Typhon's Bane instead of Apollo's Bow? Typhon's Bane is pretty lame.

Typhon's Bane is a goddamn portable tornado I'd say it ousts a fair number of his other projectiles, or the Bow of Apollo at the least.

bow of apollo nevah runs out and shoots far faster however.

Also, which blades does Kratos get Sappho? Blades of Athena or Blades of Exile?

Blades of Athena can do that supah awesome tornado magic, while Exile has the ghostly spartan shield/spear barrier with a magic shower of arrows.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
^ Wasn't the mountain busting thing in the manga only? Or is the manga canon?


Not canon, but was made by Masahiko Nakahiro. He's made MANY SF mangas and they have been so good, Capcom implements his ideas in actual canon. He has a very close relationship to Capcom and mainly SF.

Masahiko Nakahiro is responsible for...

-He invented Karin Kanzuki and her entire backstory.

-He invented the Dark Hadou, which forced Capcom to retcon the end of SFI to implement his idea.

-He invented Evil Ryu

-The whole boulder thing that Ryu lifts in 3S was invented by Nakahiro.

-Ryu's focus attack, a.k.a Fists of Wind.

-Akuma's ROFLcopter (his ultra 2)

-Lots of other stuff.


One thing I wanna know, how the hell is Kratos gonna kill Gouken? We are aware that Gouken's immortality is on Jedah level. "The Power of Nothingness" makes him unkillable. Vaporizing his body won't work. Sending his soul to hell...wont work and I aint talkin' about no greek hell (Hades), I'm talkin' about Hell-Hell.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
He has never had to use it in cutscenes whatsoever though.

It has no feats unless you count gameplay.

Also, why Typhon's Bane instead of Apollo's Bow? Typhon's Bane is pretty lame.
well the abilities he gets in gameplay, as long as its nothing absurd.

and typhons bane STOMPS the bow, easily.

also, the blades of exile, but kratos wont get to use that magic for this fight.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
bow of apollo nevah runs out and shoots far faster however.

Also, which blades does Kratos get Sappho? Blades of Athena or Blades of Exile?

Blades of Athena can do that supah awesome tornado magic, while Exile has the ghostly spartan shield/spear barrier with a magic shower of arrows.

It's pretty much the same speed actually (after the upgrade for Typhon's Bane). And for all intents and purposes, Kratos ever actually running out of magic or even whatever the hell limits his fire arrows, Helios' head or Hermes' boots, is al more or less gameplay restrictions (not counting the secrets that give infinite use of them). There's really alot of that in gameplay when talking about Kratos' capabilities (not including most of the QTE scenes).

Strictly speaking btw, that "Supah awsome tornado magic" (it's called Divine Reckoning btw), if you look closely enough, is actually done with the Blade of Olympus by driving it into the ground. It's kinda like a smaller scale version of what Zeus did during the Great War. He technically doesn't need the Blades of Athena for it, just the Blade of Olympus.

On the other hand there is no reason to assume they don't run out when they are assigned a limit in the first place. Kratos has had plenty of abilities over the course of his games that don't run out and simply recharge on their own, so there is a clear intent shown that some of his magic abilities are effectively inexhaustible, (minus a downtime), and some need to be replenished, (or at least require a more significant charge time than showable in gameplay limits)

And cool stuff, never noticed him using the BoO during that maneuver.

Originally posted by No End N Site
One thing I wanna know, how the hell is Kratos gonna kill Gouken? We are aware that Gouken's immortality is on Jedah level. "The Power of Nothingness" makes him unkillable. Vaporizing his body won't work. Sending his soul to hell...wont work and I aint talkin' about no greek hell (Hades), I'm talkin' about Hell-Hell.

Where and when the hell was that established, exactly? Power of Nothingness makes him immnue to the likes of Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu, and only moreso since waking up from taking it the first time, but when the characters that have come back from the Shun Goku Satsu outnumbers the characters its actually put down for good, that says to me that it's not exactly as much of some do-all, end-all bfr as it's made out to be. There's about two or three amps of Kratos' that make him at least equally unkillable by about 90% of the SF cast's capabilities.

Originally posted by No End N Site
One thing I wanna know, how the hell is Kratos gonna kill Gouken? We are aware that Gouken's immortality is on Jedah level. "The Power of Nothingness" makes him unkillable. Vaporizing his body won't work. Sending his soul to hell...wont work and I aint talkin' about no greek hell (Hades), I'm talkin' about Hell-Hell. I thought his regeneration took a long time after Gouki "killed" him?

Yeah, like, years.

But to be fair, when Akuma tried it again, I think it just plain didn't work at all as soon as he tried to prepare for it.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Also, why Typhon's Bane instead of Apollo's Bow? Typhon's Bane is pretty lame.

Apollo's bow is like the TB's little sister.
Homing shots that can split up into smaller homing shots, a mini & actual tornado, and rapid-fire capabilities quite close to the AB's rate of fire, all make it superior to AB.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
bow of apollo nevah runs out and shoots far faster however.


It's arrows & charged arrows are blockable by a variety of enemies, and iirc, TB shots are pretty much unblockable, or at least, its Tornado shots are.
Also, AB technically does run out since the Bar eventually degrades, and you have to wait for it to recharge. That is still gameplay mechanics though. Personally, I think his magic is like that as well. He can use it a set number of times, but has to wait for quite a while to recharge his reserves.

Originally posted by Sappho
also, the blades of exile, but kratos wont get to use that magic for this fight.

So tanking and increased speed, along with implied increased strength? Good enough.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Not canon, but was made by Masahiko Nakahiro. He's made MANY SF mangas and they have been so good, Capcom implements his ideas in actual canon. He has a very close relationship to Capcom and mainly SF.

Masahiko Nakahiro is responsible for...

-He invented Karin Kanzuki and her entire backstory.

-He invented the Dark Hadou, which forced Capcom to retcon the end of SFI to implement his idea.

-He invented Evil Ryu

-The whole boulder thing that Ryu lifts in 3S was invented by Nakahiro.

-Ryu's focus attack, a.k.a Fists of Wind.

-Akuma's ROFLcopter (his ultra 2)

-Lots of other stuff.


One thing I wanna know, how the hell is Kratos gonna kill Gouken? We are aware that Gouken's immortality is on Jedah level. "The Power of Nothingness" makes him unkillable. Vaporizing his body won't work. Sending his soul to hell...wont work and I aint talkin' about no greek hell (Hades), I'm talkin' about Hell-Hell.

Awesome.
Though it still has to be performed in the game/canon for it to be canon.

The Power of Nothingness makes him immune to SGS iirc, not giving him immortality. Unless you know something I don't (which is likely, seeing as you know more about SF than anyone I know on KMC).
Also, Kratos does have the option of KO'ing Gouken, or just ripping him apart.
Hadoukens/Projectiles will be reflected by the Golden Fleece, so that option is out.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Awesome.
Though it still has to be performed in the game/canon for it to be canon.


I could understand that line of reasonin', altho any reader can see that
Masahiko Nakahiro stays very faithful to characters and is of unforgettable importance to the series. He's made alot of SF mangas.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The Power of Nothingness makes him immune to SGS iirc, not giving him immortality. Unless you know something I don't (which is likely, seeing as you know more about SF than anyone I know on KMC).
Also, Kratos does have the option of KO'ing Gouken, or just ripping him apart.
Hadoukens/Projectiles will be reflected by the Golden Fleece, so that option is out.

Gouken's body was torn outta existence. He had to make another one. Rippin'im apart wont help, Akuma 'destroyed' him.



Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
Yeah, like, years.

But to be fair, when Akuma tried it again, I think it just plain didn't work at all as soon as he tried to prepare for it.

No, it did not take years. The instant his body was destroyed, the Power of Mu was activated. He only decided to make is presence known in SFIV. The Big G-Man's been around for a while. The power of MU makes him immune to death, period. When his body was obliterated, his soul created another. It's not anti SNH, it's anti death.

Just thought I get that out there before I quote the book again...gonna take a while.

some of those magic abilities that have limits on them most likely have these limits because of game balance, not implications on restrictions of using them.

Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
when the characters that have come back from the Shun Goku Satsu outnumbers the characters its actually put down for good, that says to me that it's not exactly as much of some do-all, end-all bfr as it's made out to be.

You do know why the 4 people Akuma has SGSed came back, right? That's SF 101, c'mon. None of these reasons would apply to Kratos, bty.

Gen- Cleared his mind 100% and made it pure to avoid death by the SGS. Kratos can't do that. Not to mention, in order to do this, you have to be aware of the SGS.

Gouken- Has the power of Mu. Seems to be a a plot device.

Bison- Has back up bodies and tech that make his soul eternal. He died at least 5 times in SFA3, he was immortal. Kratos does not have access to Shadaloo tech.

Gill- He can ressurect, through unknown means.

Don't blame it on the SGS not being what it is or not being strong enough. 3 outta the 4 died, they were destroyed. Aint Akuma's fault that the people he hit just so happen to be able to defy death itself. The SGS sends you to the after life, its God and Satan's job to keep you there, not Akuma's.

Funny, since Kratos has escaped hell many, many times.

Not to mention Gouki will not even get the chance to use the SGS.

It's also very funny that you don't seem to know that the SGS is not an actual grab attack, it's just gameplay. I aint sayin, Akuma's gonna win. Just droppin' some SF knowledge in dis biznitch. So y'all mutha phuckaz know.

And GoW hell is not the same as the hell in SF, tho. Gods in Gow can be killed.

Originally posted by No End N Site
It's also very funny that you don't seem to know that the SGS is not an actual grab attack, it's just gameplay. I aint sayin, Akuma's gonna win. Just droppin' some SF knowledge in dis biznitch. So y'all mutha phuckaz know.

And GoW hell is not the same as the hell in SF, tho. Gods in Gow can be killed. It's hilarious that you took what I said and got "grab attack" out of that.

God nor Satan to my knowledge have been confirmed to exist in SF.

Originally posted by No End N Site
It's also very funny that you don't seem to know that the SGS is not an actual grab attack, it's just gameplay. I aint sayin, Akuma's gonna win. Just droppin' some SF knowledge in dis biznitch. So y'all mutha phuckaz know.

And GoW hell is not the same as the hell in SF, tho. Gods in Gow can be killed.

The GoW Underworld is where Kratos will go if he is killed, not SF hell.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I could understand that line of reasonin', altho any reader can see that
Masahiko Nakahiro stays very faithful to characters and is of unforgettable importance to the series. He's made alot of SF mangas.


Irrelevant. Unless the mangas are stated to be canon to the SF-verse, the mountain busting feat cannot be canon unless it has appeared in the manga.
Though yeah, if he is faithful as he has been, those Hadoukens should be able to bust mountains. Still doesn't change a thing though, as Kratos can reflect them right back at those two.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Gouken's body was torn outta existence. He had to make another one. Rippin'im apart wont help, Akuma 'destroyed' him.

Source?


Originally posted by No End N Site
No, it did not take years. The instant his body was destroyed, the Power of Mu was activated. He only decided to make is presence known in SFIV. The Big G-Man's been around for a while. The power of MU makes him immune to death, period. When his body was obliterated, his soul created another. It's not anti SNH, it's anti death.

Just thought I get that out there before I quote the book again...gonna take a while.

He states in his OP that he had been unconscious for very long.

Which book?

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's hilarious that you took what I said and got "grab attack" out of that.

Don't understant why else he would never be able to activate the move in a fight.

Originally posted by NemeBro
God nor Satan to my knowledge have been confirmed to exist in SF.

They don't need to be. You know their world is similar to our own.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Don't understant why else he would never be able to activate the move in a fight.



They don't need to be. You know their world is similar to our own. Because unless he literally has to do nothing to do it, Kratos is too fast and strong for it to matter, since Gouki will be dead.

.......... God and Satan are not confirmed to exist in our world either.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The GoW Underworld is where Kratos will go if he is killed, not SF hell.




Irrelevant. Unless the mangas are stated to be canon to the SF-verse, the mountain busting feat cannot be canon unless it has appeared in the manga.
Though yeah, if he is faithful as he has been, those Hadoukens should be able to bust mountains. Still doesn't change a thing though, as Kratos can reflect them right back at those two.



Source?




He states in his OP that he had been unconscious for very long.

Which book?

1) 'Pends on which world the fight takes place in.

2) Some things really don't need to be said. If Capcom constantly uses this guy's material for canon, I think he potrays the SFs in charcter. At the end, I think it's up to the Op. Also, reflecting Hdks back wont work, Akuma and Gouken can't be harmed by their own chi.

3) SF World Warrior Encyclopedia.

4) I take back what I said (I just re-read the passage about Mu), Mu was activated instantly, but Gouken's spirit took several years to create a new body, it was a long process. It didn't take up until SFIV, but it took a while.

SF World Warrior Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Because unless he literally has to do nothing to do it, Kratos is too fast and strong for it to matter, since Gouki will be dead.
.......... God and Satan are not confirmed to exist in our world either.

It's instant. INSTANT Hell Murder, You die 1000 times in an instant. The screen/panels flash and you die. Not exactly sure what he does for it to actiavte in canon. Pretty sure no one does.

The argument about whether God or Satan is real or not is irrelevnt. Everyone who has been hit by the SGS has confirmed that their is an after life. Clearly not similar to that of GoW, if it were, everyone who has died in SF would still be alive. Cuz they all would have escaped from hell...or heaven, 'specially bastards like Gotetsu.

Originally posted by No End N Site
1) 'Pends on which world the fight takes place in.

2) Some things really don't need to be said. If Capcom constantly uses this guy's material for canon, I think he potrays the SFs in charcter. Also, reflecting Hdks back wont work, Akuma and Gouken can't be harmed by their own chi.

3) SF World Warrior Encyclopedia.

4) I take back what I said (I just re-read the passage about Mu), Mu was activated instantly, but Gouken's spirit took several years to create a new body, it was a long process. It didn't take up until SFIV, but it took a while.

SF World Warrior Encyclopedia.

1) KMC fights take place on a neutral battlefield, unless specified. This one just takes place in a Jungle, and in a neutral-verse. Ergo, Kratos would go to GoW Underworld in this case, or the neutral-verse's hell.

2) Not always though. Them using his ideas as canon simply means they liked his idea, and decided to implement it as canon. But that doesn't mean that the degree of the feat would be the same; e.g. Ryu's Kaze no Ken was what killed Gouki iirc. I doubt his SF4 FA would kill Gouki.

But it will make the Hadoukens nothing more than failed projectiles.

Would Kratos still go to the Underworld now that Hades is dead?

Originally posted by No End N Site
It's instant. INSTANT Hell Murder, You die 1000 times in an instant. The screen/panels flash and you die. Not exactly sure what he does for it to actiavte in canon. Pretty sure no one does.

The argument about whether God or Satan is real or not is irrelevnt. Everyone who has been hit by the SGS has confirmed that their is an after life. Clearly not similar to that of GoW, if it were, everyone who has died in SF would still be alive. Cuz they all would have escaped from hell...or heaven, 'specially bastards like Gotetsu. And has to be activated somehow, probably physically. IIRC I read something about it involving hitting certain parts on your body but whatever.

But does not confirm there is a God or Satan, and featless demons will not keep Kratos down. Only none of them are as strong as Kratos and cannot do what he can. But I digress.

Kratos can react with enough speed that Gouki will be headless as soon as hje is in range, and Gouken, though not dead, will be incapacitated.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
1) KMC fights take place on a neutral battlefield, unless specified. This one just takes place in a Jungle, and in a neutral-verse. Ergo, Kratos would go to GoW Underworld in this case, or the neutral-verse's hell.

You do realize that if many characters get sent back to their own hell, they would be immortal? In alotta games, the after life is just another dimension.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
2) Not always though. Them using his ideas as canon simply means they liked his idea, and decided to implement it as canon. But that doesn't mean that the degree of the feat would be the same; e.g. Ryu's Kaze no Ken was what killed Gouki iirc. I doubt his SF4 FA would kill Gouki.

They do it with alot of his stuff, tho. They borrow somethin' from every manga he makes. I don't think his potrayals are unfaithful. You do remember that the manga takes place in SFIII, 'after' IV (Ryu is much stronger) and that that attack was delivered by a Ryu 'after' his trainin' with Oro? The Ryu that originaly used the Fist of Wind is much more powerful than the Ryu in SFIV. So no, it would not have the same effect.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
But it will make the Hadoukens nothing more than failed projectiles.

They can throw alot of'em tho..easily. So, a few of'em failing to make conatact aint the big of a deal. It's like DBZ blast spamming.

Originally posted by NemeBro
And has to be activated somehow, probably physically. IIRC I read something about it involving hitting certain parts on your body but whatever.

But does not confirm there is a God or Satan, and featless demons will not keep Kratos down. Only none of them are as strong as Kratos and cannot do what he can. But I digress.

Kratos can react with enough speed that Gouki will be headless as soon as hje is in range, and Gouken, though not dead, will be incapacitated.

1. Don't know where you heard that shit.

2. Yeah...the whole attacked by demons thing was confirmed to be bull shit long ago. Sorry (can't believe you puckin' said that, was a great for lulz, tho). The amount of your past sins is what destroys you, plus some other shit thats not specified.

3. Never seen Kartos move that damn fast. The normals in SF are easily faster than bullets and Akuma is God to them. You argue that Akuma can beat Dante but not Kratos, despite the fact that Dante is 'way' faster than Kratos. Strange...

Originally posted by No End N Site
No, it did not take years. The instant his body was destroyed, the Power of Mu was activated. He only decided to make is presence known in SFIV. The Big G-Man's been around for a while. The power of MU makes him immune to death, period. When his body was obliterated, his soul created another. It's not anti SNH, it's anti death.

Just thought I get that out there before I quote the book again...gonna take a while.

Pretty sure it was stated that he was in a deep coma for as long as it took for him to resurface for his SFIV debut. That, and it was also stated to my recollection that Ryu and Ken had laid his body in their dojo, which contradicts the whole "wiped the body from existance" thing. I'm pretty sure Gouken also didn't discover the "Power of Nothingness" until AFTER he resurfaced, and what prevented his death the first time was a similar maneuver to Gen's where he emptied his mind.

Unless what source you were talking about is more official and/or retcons or better explains the whole deal behind these things? Mind you, I'm not arguing right now, I'm asking.

Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
Pretty sure it was stated that he was in a deep coma for as long as it took for him to resurface for his SFIV debut. That, and it was also stated to my recollection that Ryu and Ken had laid his body in their dojo, which contradicts the whole "wiped the body from existance" thing. I'm pretty sure Gouken also didn't discover the "Power of Nothingness" until AFTER he resurfaced, and what prevented his death the first time was a similar maneuver to Gen's where he emptied his mind.

Unless what source you were talking about is more official and/or retcons or better explains the whole deal behind these things? Mind you, I'm not arguing right now, I'm asking.

The shit about him being in a coma was never official. The shit about Ryu and Ken layin' him to rest was retconed.

http://images.betterworldbooks.com/192/Street-Fighter-World-Warrior-Encyclopedia-Various-9781926778013.jpg

This book tells it all. Also said this a lil while back...

Originally posted by Me
I take back what I said (I just re-read the passage about Mu), Mu was activated instantly, but Gouken's spirit took several years to create a new body, it was a long process. It didn't take up until SFIV, but it took a while.

Originally posted by No End N Site
1. Don't know where you heard that shit.

2. Yeah...the whole attacked by demons thing was confirmed to be bull shit long ago. Sorry (can't believe you puckin' said that, was a great for lulz, tho). The amount of your past sins is what destroys you, plus some other shit thats not specified.

3. Never seen Kartos move that damn fast. The normals in SF are easily faster than bullets and Akuma is God to them. You argue that Akuma can beat Dante but not Kratos, despite the fact that Dante is 'way' faster than Kratos. Strange...
just asking, but wouldnt you have to prove that sgs is actually instant, and not just part of the name.

and iirc kratos blocked lightning at the end of god of war 2. not all too fast on his feet, but his reflexes would be amazing.

Originally posted by Sappho
just asking, but wouldnt you have to prove that sgs is actually instant, and not just part of the name.

and iirc kratos blocked lightning at the end of god of war 2. not all too fast on his feet, but his reflexes would be amazing.

I'm sure everyone here has seen what the move looks like. I shouldn't have to prove it. How it is activated is an unknown, tho. Once you're hit you die instantly.

There is a SF character named Blanka who has a move called Shout of Earth that strikes a nice portion of the screen with lightning. If Akuma could not get passed that, than he doesn't deserve to be one of the strongest SF characters because clearly, even with Blanka having the power to strike with lightning, he is not. He can also summon lightning from his own body with a move called Direct Lightning.

Originally posted by No End N Site
1. Don't know where you heard that shit.

2. Yeah...the whole attacked by demons thing was confirmed to be bull shit long ago. Sorry (can't believe you puckin' said that, was a great for lulz, tho). The amount of your past sins is what destroys you, plus some other shit thats not specified.

3. Never seen Kartos move that damn fast. The normals in SF are easily faster than bullets and Akuma is God to them. You argue that Akuma can beat Dante but not Kratos, despite the fact that Dante is 'way' faster than Kratos. Strange... 1. Heard a few descriptions of the move, one that says the user channels the 16 Hells of Buddhism through his own soul into his opponent, but it does not really matter.

2. It's funny how you pick out a single flawed point of mine as if it mattered in a condescending fashion yet you yourself, on the whole, are wrong. Get over yourself brah. I never said I was the Streetfighter expert, and the specifics of the SGS may have changed without me noticing, what is it now?

3. Funny you say that. Considering Kratos is in fact faster than Dante. Kratos can block and reflect lightning, he can block an explosion from right in front of him, can react to super-hypersonic foes like Poseidon and Zeus with ease, etc. etc. Poseidon was practically frozen in a scene from GoW3 when Kratos was leaping from tentacle to tentacle while fighting him.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Heard a few descriptions of the move, one that says the user channels the 16 Hells of Buddhism through his own soul into his opponent, but it does not really matter.

2. It's funny how you pick out a single flawed point of mine as if it mattered in a condescending fashion yet you yourself, on the whole, are wrong. Get over yourself brah. I never said I was the Streetfighter expert, and the specifics of the SGS may have changed without me noticing, what is it now?

3. Funny you say that. Considering Kratos is in fact faster than Dante. Kratos can block and reflect lightning, he can block an explosion from right in front of him, can react to super-hypersonic foes like Poseidon and Zeus with ease, etc. etc. Poseidon was practically frozen in a scene from GoW3 when Kratos was leaping from tentacle to tentacle while fighting him.

1. Well, that's not right.

2. You got all "condescending" on me 1st, tellin' me about "featless demons". 'Just did it back, annoying right? The SGS was 'never' about bein' attacked by demons. People just made shit up. Gettin' stomped by your past sins has been what it's all about since 1998, Street Fighter Alpha 3.

3. He is not faster than Dante. Never seen anything that looked "hyper sonic" from Poseidon and Zeus. Show me this. And you do know that the conditions necessary to produce lightining (free electricity) can be replicated by Blanka...

-Blocked a massive point blank explosion. That explosion would be mach 30 at least going by the higher end ranges for solid explosives.

-Blocked a mach 30ish charge from a Leviathan.

-Athena in the novel crossed the distance of several miles 'at the speed of thought'.

-Artemis in the novel was said to shoot her arrows down 'swifter than lightning' and then get another arrow ready to shoot before the first shot ever hit the ground.

just some examples.

You realize that all of these speeds are HEAVILY depended on many factors that do not allow these certain things travel at the maximum speed, or anywhere near close to it, 100% of the time?

Not really the case here.

Sounds to me like you really think that all explosions, no mater the conditions or what casued them, explode at the same speed. Is this true?

And that lightining can be caused by more than atmospheric electricity. Tell me, what's really going on on these boards?

Explosions have a range, and even at their lowest, solid explosions are still hypersonic.

The magnitude and power of that explosion makes it unlikely that it was anything less than the absolute max.

Hell, even mere C4 explosions can range up to 9000 m/s for detonation velocity.

-Not sure what your point is on the electricity.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I'm sure everyone here has seen what the move looks like. I shouldn't have to prove it. How it is activated is an unknown, tho. Once you're hit you die instantly.

There is a SF character named Blanka who has a move called Shout of Earth that strikes a nice portion of the screen with lightning. If Akuma could not get passed that, than he doesn't deserve to be one of the strongest SF characters because clearly, even with Blanka having the power to strike with lightning, he is not. He can also summon lightning from his own body with a move called Direct Lightning.

how it is activated is unknown, which is the point. however that maybe, im sure kratos can stop it from even hitting. im not arguing that the attack itself would kill you instantly, but thats if it hit him. the move doesnt hit instantly, it will kill instantly if it hits.

point was that you said kratos isnt "faster" than dante, but reflex wise, he is.

Originally posted by Sappho
point was that you said kratos isnt "faster" than dante, but reflex wise, he is.

The argument of Dante VS Kratos is like beating a dead hores. Not really going to go back into it now. But yeah, what you've just said, I've seen before.


Originally posted by CosmicComet
Explosions have a range, and even at their lowest, solid explosions are still hypersonic.

The magnitude and power of that explosion makes it unlikely that it was anything less than the absolute max.

Hell, even mere C4 explosions can range up to 9000 m/s for detonation velocity.

-Not sure what your point is on the electricity.

Love to see this. And the way you hypin' this shit up, it better look like what Goku did when he fought Freeza.

My point was that dodging lightining is not a big deal in the world of video games. Characters do it all the time. Most game characters have super reflexes and reaction speeds.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Do not want spoilers, only answering this.

Kratos physically matched and even overpowered Hercules, who in the GoW canon did what Altas did, held up the world. That alone puts his physical power beyond even their ki amped power.

When was this stated? And I don't recall Kratos overpowering Heracles.

Originally posted by No End N Site
You do realize that if many characters get sent back to their own hell, they would be immortal? In alotta games, the after life is just another dimension.

This does not refute anything I stated, considering that the after life in Kratos' verse consists of going to the Underworld and being judged, and that what happens in a lot of other games bears no weight on what happens in one game.

SGS typically kills, and if Kratos is killed, he is taken to the Underworld, not to an Afterlife in another Universe.

Originally posted by No End N Site
They do it with alot of his stuff, tho. They borrow somethin' from every manga he makes. I don't think his potrayals are unfaithful. You do remember that the manga takes place in SFIII, 'after' IV (Ryu is much stronger) and that that attack was delivered by a Ryu 'after' his trainin' with Oro? The Ryu that originaly used the Fist of Wind is much more powerful than the Ryu in SFIV. So no, it would not have the same effect.

Do they copy all of it perfectly? Does it function exactly as it did in the manga?
I presume the whole mountain busting took place in their fight for Ryu. If so, it's just an alternate/possible view of the fight, but not necessarily the canon one.
Then there's the fact that, you know, the manga itself is non-canon, which automatically renders every feat non-canon.

K. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that the debut of the Kaze no Ken in the manga...'after' his training with Oro?
My point was that the attack in the manga and the attack in the game will not always be at the same level.

Originally posted by No End N Site
They can throw alot of'em tho..easily. So, a few of'em failing to make conatact aint the big of a deal. It's like DBZ blast spamming.

If they are in quick succession, Kratos can deflect all of'em..easily. A lot of them being spammed isn't a big deal.

Originally posted by No End N Site
You argue that Akuma can beat Dante but not Kratos, despite the fact that Dante is 'way' faster than Kratos. Strange...

Straight line speed doesn't usually mean much in battle. Dante's combat speed is lower than his travel speed.
Reactions matter quite a lot as well, and Kratos is a Lightning-timer, which is exponentially beyond Dante's level of speed.

As for Akuma beating Dante, you do realize that Dante's actual durability is relatively low for someone of his caliber? His regeneration is what gives him his tenacity, but even that can be overcome. If Dante gets hit by a fairly high level punch from Akuma, there's a good chance he'll be KO'd, if not killed.

Originally posted by No End N Site
There is a SF character named Blanka who has a move called Shout of Earth that strikes a nice portion of the screen with lightning. If Akuma could not get passed that, than he doesn't deserve to be one of the strongest SF characters because clearly, even with Blanka having the power to strike with lightning, he is not. He can also summon lightning from his own body with a move called Direct Lightning.

Lightning/electric discharge from his own body, is not as powerful or as fast as natural lightning, not unless you have proof/info that it is actually that powerful/fast. If he were the personification of lightning or such, then it'd be a different case.

Originally posted by No End N Site

3. He is not faster than Dante. Never seen anything that looked "hyper sonic" from Poseidon and Zeus. Show me this.

He certainly isn't faster, not in terms of movement speed, but his reactions are probably better...I say 'probably' because while Dante has apparently fought a Lightning Timer, his own reactions aren't known to be as such.
Then there is Kratos' combat speed. His basic strikes take about as much time as the duration of a singular lightning strike.

Zeus is the embodiment of natural lightning in the GoW verse, and actually turns into it while in combat with Kratos.
As for Poseidon, he has accelerated from 0 to Super Sonic instantaneously, while his pet beasties are hypersonic.

Originally posted by iChaos
When was this stated? And I don't recall Kratos overpowering Heracles.
i) GoW Novel (which is canon)

ii) Hercules references his Labour of finding the Golden Apple, which in mythology, required the aid of Atlas, who was carrying the Sky/World at the time. Therefore, Hercules offered to carry the Sky/World for a short time, while Atlas went to get the Apple.
Since most of GoW's background mythos is the same as Greek Myth unless stated otherwise, it's likely that GoW Hercules did indeed carry the World. It was then confirmed in the Novel.

Kratos can overpower Hercules when the latter charges at Kratos.
Then there is Kratos punching the arena (while Hercules is lifting it) hard enough that Hercules gets pinned under it.

And yet he still got his salad tossed, heh.

I'm thinking this might be a bit more fair if Kratos is stripped of all his jazz so it's H2H only O.O

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
i) GoW Novel (which is canon)

ii) Hercules references his Labour of finding the Golden Apple, which in mythology, required the aid of Atlas, who was carrying the Sky/World at the time. Therefore, Hercules offered to carry the Sky/World for a short time, while Atlas went to get the Apple.
Since most of GoW's background mythos is the same as Greek Myth unless stated otherwise, it's likely that GoW Hercules did indeed carry the World. It was then confirmed in the Novel.

Kratos can overpower Hercules when the latter charges at Kratos.
Then there is Kratos punching the arena (while Hercules is lifting it) hard enough that Hercules gets pinned under it. Those were more leverage things though. He picks him up while Herc pushes him with one hand and Kratos uses.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
This does not refute anything I stated, considering that the after life in Kratos' verse consists of going to the Underworld and being judged, and that what happens in a lot of other games bears no weight on what happens in one game.

SGS typically kills, and if Kratos is killed, he is taken to the Underworld, not to an Afterlife in another Universe.



Do they copy all of it perfectly? Does it function exactly as it did in the manga?
I presume the whole mountain busting took place in their fight for Ryu. If so, it's just an alternate/possible view of the fight, but not necessarily the canon one.
Then there's the fact that, you know, the manga itself is non-canon, which automatically renders every feat non-canon.

K. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that the debut of the Kaze no Ken in the manga...'after' his training with Oro?
My point was that the attack in the manga and the attack in the game will not always be at the same level.



If they are in quick succession, Kratos can deflect all of'em..easily. A lot of them being spammed isn't a big deal.



Straight line speed doesn't usually mean much in battle. Dante's combat speed is lower than his travel speed.
Reactions matter quite a lot as well, and Kratos is a Lightning-timer, which is exponentially beyond Dante's level of speed.

As for Akuma beating Dante, you do realize that Dante's actual durability is relatively low for someone of his caliber? His regeneration is what gives him his tenacity, but even that can be overcome. If Dante gets hit by a fairly high level punch from Akuma, there's a good chance he'll be KO'd, if not killed.



Lightning/electric discharge from his own body, is not as powerful or as fast as natural lightning, not unless you have proof/info that it is actually that powerful/fast. If he were the personification of lightning or such, then it'd be a different case.



He certainly isn't faster, not in terms of movement speed, but his reactions are probably better...I say 'probably' because while Dante has apparently fought a Lightning Timer, his own reactions aren't known to be as such.
Then there is Kratos' combat speed. His basic strikes take about as much time as the duration of a singular lightning strike.

Zeus is the embodiment of natural lightning in the GoW verse, and actually turns into it while in combat with Kratos.
As for Poseidon, he has accelerated from 0 to Super Sonic instantaneously, while his pet beasties are hypersonic.

1. All what you posted means you missed my point. The jist of what I was sayin' was, for example, characters like the Darkstalkers live in Hell. If they die, they go back home and can easily come right back. Sounds broken to me, but if that's really the rules, than whatever.

2. ....And another miss. I never actually used that manga as canon, ever. My point was that the creator is very close to SF and Capcom and he knows the characters well. He always potrays them faithfully. While I would never say the events are canon, the characters were potrayed correctly in all areas. Ryu's FA was done by a SFII Ryu who had finished trainin' with Oro. That is why Akuma was defeated. SFIV's version is not as powerful because he has yet to even meet Oro and SFIII takes place years after IV.

3. I find that hard to believe. Kratos would have to be in multiple places at once to deflect every single Hdk.

4. You do remember that Dante has defeated gangs of Blitz? They are made lightning. He also defeated Nevan a.k.a the Lightning Witch. Dante had the power to conquer Alastor, the swrod that is the Spirit of Lightning in DMC verse and alotta other shit. A "Lightning-timer" is not a big whoop. Dante can consistently shoot barrages of bullets at barrages of bullets and hit every single one with no effort, "all" the time.

Dante is much faster than Akuma, and he has demon swords. Strength won't help much in that fight.

5. No Blanka's U2 summons lightning from the sky...or from his body (pendin' on KKK or PPP). And here is a fun fact, lightning 'is' electricity. Once the electricty leaves Blanka's body, it moves at the rate it which electricty does. Electricty only moves slow when travelin' through shit, like wires. When it's out and free, it all moves the same. Lightning moves fast because it is free, nothing but air to stand in its way.

6. Look back at 4 and 5

Originally posted by No End N Site
The shit about him being in a coma was never official. The shit about Ryu and Ken layin' him to rest was retconed.

http://images.betterworldbooks.com/192/Street-Fighter-World-Warrior-Encyclopedia-Various-9781926778013.jpg

This book tells it all. Also said this a lil while back...

Sorry to say this dude, but an Udon based stat book does not override primary canon.

ch-9MbVQMjw

Gouken clearly states "Regaining Consciousness" nothing about dying or reforming bodies.

krotos would never win i think so

You think wrong.

-edit-

Found it...

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/926/12133453bneuybt5.jpg

'Book even has bits of info for characters like Gunloc and Senpai.

Cammy is hot and awesome.

Just saying.

Too bad she's a damn Bison clone. "Selfcest" ahoy!

Bison never looked hawter.

If I were Bison, I'd selfcest Rose over Cammy.

http://ginagrad.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/street-fighter-12.jpg

U no Bison was groping himself win he was N Roses body B4 SFII.

Rose is pretty hawt too, but Cammy is more-so IMO.

Kinda wierd, tho. A Female genetic clone and the other half of your soul in the body of woman.

What are you implying sir? 131

Let's just say that if Bison was Midnight Blissed. He wouldn't mind...

Hm.

Lol.

I take it, you too would "make babies" with your clone and or, other half?

Originally posted by No End N Site
Actually, you're wrong. Capcom says it's all canon. Doesn't matter how you feel (and I admit, alotta shit sounds stupid, now). But Word of God says the shit is official and there is a disclaimer in the front of the book with the author tellin' you that what's not found from the game itself is Word of God. Don't see why it would be that hard for UDON to get SF info from Cap when they are constantly workin' with the company. And "Regaining Consciousness" is kinda vauge, could be twisted to mean anything. Word of God overrides primary canon.

Actually, no it's not, word of producers and directors still plays secondary role to what is displayed onscreen during primary canon. The reason for this: Demonstrated capability within the story MUST supercede everything else. Otherwise every production members personal oppinion clashes and it becomes a quagmire of supposed "superior" canon information that conflicts with itself and every other source.

This is why we have "Tiers of canon sources".

For Street fighter is Must be the games and Only the games that are highest tier of canon.

Second tier would be comics, novelisation and the animes. The current anime's, Udon comics and novels are written and created alongside the games, but still allow for very minor deviations from the Games, hence while they are still canon, anything within them that conflicts with the original is con sidered non canon.

Basically, the further one branches out from the games, the less canon it becomes.



Originally posted by No End N Site
http://www.capcom-unity.com/jgonzo/blog/2010/03/30/ udon_and_capcom_announce_street_fighter_world_warr
ior_encyclopedia

Posted on Cap's own site. It is what it is. "The truth is in the manual".

don't misinterprit a sales pitch as "Word of God"

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Actually, no it's not, word of producers and directors still plays secondary role to what is displayed onscreen during primary canon. The reason for this: Demonstrated capability within the story MUST supercede everything else. Otherwise every production members personal oppinion clashes and it becomes a quagmire of supposed "superior" canon information that conflicts with itself and every other source.

I understand you're reasoning...but I disagree entirely. Capcom is known for showin' shit in the game and then sayin' what actually happened is completly different from what we saw. Perfect example, SFA3. It's not the 1st time...wont be the last.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
This is why we have "Tiers of canon sources".

For Street fighter is Must be the games and Only the games that are highest tier of canon.

I disagree, that is why we have memes like "Word of God" and "The Truth Is In the Manual". For me, and what Capcom intends with this product is...

What Capcom says>>>>>>what's in the game (they made the game). The game would have you believe things like: Sakura is still a school girl, Seth didn't fight Ryu prior to the game, Makoto and Ibuki are the same ages they were in 3rd Strike that they are in SFIV. 70% of the shit you need to know about the canon isn't the game. It's in the books and the canon is often misrepresented in the game itself. What happens in the game is sloppily thrown together for each character's scenario.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Second tier would be comics, novelisation and the animes. The current anime's, Udon comics and novels are written and created alongside the games, but still allow for very minor deviations from the Games, hence while they are still canon, anything within them that conflicts with the original is con sidered non canon..

This is true, but the SF WW Encyclopedia isn't a story made up by UDON with Capcom licensing the property. These are peeps who know Capcom well and has done their research and homework to make a guide on SF's canon. It's official.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Basically, the further one branches out from the games, the less canon it becomes.
I agree...




Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
don't misinterprit a sales pitch as "Word of God"

Rather it's a sales pitch or not, it's what Cap USA said, they own SF and can do and say what ever the hell they want. When they speak on their own franchises, it is indeed the Word of God. This is literally akin to the guy who argued that Poison wasn't really born a man becuase what the company and source books state contridcts what's said in the game.

Sorry for the Double Post.

Addendum:

The very source your using (IE the Udon comics) already contadicts this.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss221/arbelo18/1532656372_a47b505357.jpg

Very clearly, Gouken's body was not "Taken out of existance". Therefore your reasoning for Mu giving Gouken the ability to create a new body is entirely a myth, until something comes along to prove it's existance.

Besides, the power of Mu "Creating" anything is contradictory to it's very nature and meaning...

Originally posted by No End N Site
I understand you're reasoning...but I disagree entirely. Capcom is known for showin' shit in the game and then sayin' what actually happened is completly different from what we saw. It's not the 1st time...wont be the last.

However, we cannot assume anything, As I stated, we HAVE to take primary canon as the superceding canon until actual retcons are done. The reason for this: People's oppinions can and do change over time, game development staff are no different.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I disagree, that is why we have memes like "Word of God" and "The Truth Is In the Manual". For me, and what Capcom intends with this product is...

Completely irrelevant unless we are talking aboiut unanswered questions and blank spots, which this is not.

Originally posted by No End N Site
What Capcom says>>>>>>what's in the game (they made the game). The game would have you believe things like: Sakura is still a school girl, Seth didn't fight Ryu prior to the game, Makoto and Ibuki are the same ages they were in 3rd Strike that they are in SFIV. 70% of the shit you need to know about the canon isn't the game. It's in the books and the canon is often misrepresented in the game itself. What happens in the game is sloppily thrown together for each character's scenario.

However, despite the inconsistancies, the rule of primary canon remains. If lesser canon contradicts what is in higher cannon, then the lesser canon is disreguarded, even if it is more stupid.

Originally posted by No End N Site
This is true, but the SF WW Encyclopedia isn't a story made up by UDON with Capcom licensing the property. These are peeps who know Capcom well and has done their research and homework to make a guide on SF's canon. It's official.

Firstly, since it was developed for Udon's story arch in mind, it is relegated to C level canon at best. Secondly, if it gets upgraded to B Level, it's still superceded by A level canon, which still shoots this out of the water.


Originally posted by No End N Site
Rather it's a sales pitch or not, it's what Cap USA said, they own SF and can do and say what ever the hell they want. When they speak on their own franchises, it is indeed the Word of God. This is literally akin to the guy who argued that Poison wasn't really born a man becuase what the company and source books state contridcts what's said in the game.

That said, I trust the japanese sources more reguardless, you know this already, however, saying that, Cap of USA still has higher authority than UDON does.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Sorry for the Double Post.

Addendum:

The very source your using (IE the Udon comics) already contadicts this.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss221/arbelo18/1532656372_a47b505357.jpg

Very clearly, Gouken's body was not "Taken out of existance". Therefore your reasoning for Mu giving Gouken the ability to create a new body is entirely a myth, until something comes along to prove it's existance.

Besides, the power of Mu "Creating" anything is contradictory to it's very nature and meaning...

The difference is, that's from a non canon comic and much of SF's history has been retconned in SFIV. And The part about Mu givin' Gouken the power to create a new body is taken from a book that compiles SF's official canon. And the fact that it contridicts what Mu means is meaningless. Cammy is an exact clone of Bison despite the clone being a 'her' and has blonde hair. It's a work of fiction. What Capcom states is not a myth, you just have to learn to except it. I can post scans of the passage if you wish. In fact, tomorrow, I will.

My intent is not to mislead, only to inform.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Sorry for the Double Post.

Addendum:

The very source your using (IE the Udon comics) already contadicts this.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss221/arbelo18/1532656372_a47b505357.jpg

Very clearly, Gouken's body was not "Taken out of existance". Therefore your reasoning for Mu giving Gouken the ability to create a new body is entirely a myth, until something comes along to prove it's existance.

Besides, the power of Mu "Creating" anything is contradictory to it's very nature and meaning...



However, we cannot assume anything, As I stated, we HAVE to take primary canon as the superceding canon until actual retcons are done. The reason for this: People's oppinions can and do change over time, game development staff are no different.



Completely irrelevant unless we are talking aboiut unanswered questions and blank spots, which this is not.



However, despite the inconsistancies, the rule of primary canon remains. If lesser canon contradicts what is in higher cannon, then the lesser canon is disreguarded, even if it is more stupid.



Firstly, since it was developed for Udon's story arch in mind, it is relegated to C level canon at best. Secondly, if it gets upgraded to B Level, it's still superceded by A level canon, which still shoots this out of the water.




That said, I trust the japanese sources more reguardless, you know this already, however, saying that, Cap of USA still has higher authority than UDON does.

1. Good logic, however, it's not right. You can't argue with the people who made the game.

2. You missed that point, so never mind.

3.This canon is not lesser. It is Word of God, given to us via UDON.

4. No it's not. Matt Moylan has stated on Capcom's own forums that the information provided was taken from translations of the Japanese source books, the American games (USA owns SF now), and the producers themselves. UDON's story arch in not in mind. That is a terrible assumption. There is info given about characters and events that have never even occured and appeared in the comic. Case and point, Ingrid.

5. You can trust JP sources more than anything, all you want. That's your prerogative and all I can do is respect it. However, it does not and will never change the fact that Cap of Japan gave up on SF and all its other fighting IPs and the USA is the one that gave the series and others the chance it deserves and is now in charge of SF and 90% of Cap's other fighting games.

Originally posted by No End N Site
The difference is, that's from a non canon comic and much of SF's history has been retconned in SFIV. And The part about Mu givin' Gouken the power to create a new body is taken from a book that compiles SF's official canon. And the fact that it contridicts what Mu means is meaningless. Cammy is an exact clone of Bison despite the clone being a 'her' and has blonde hair. It's a work of fiction. What Capcom states is not a myth, you just have to learn to except it. I can post scans of the passage if you wish. In fact, tomorrow, I will.

The fact remains that the sourcebook your using to substantiate your claim directly inferrs to the comic series you just tried to refute. And as I said, higher cannon still refutes it in the form of Gouken's own quote. vague or not, until the power is demonstrated, if it contradicts higher canon, then it's out according to debating rules.

Originally posted by No End N Site
My intent is not to mislead, only to inform.

I know that, and I'm not accusing you of anything. But uniformity of information is as important as the information itself. T'is why we have rules and tiers of canon.

Originally posted by No End N Site
1. Good logic, however, it's not right. You can't argue with the people who made the game.

Yes you can, if it contradicts the source they are speaking of, then you take on-screen evidence over any individual statements.

Originally posted by No End N Site
2. You missed that point, so never mind.

Your point was producers and development staff's intent, my point was, it does not exist until it's on screen. and until that happens, highest source prevails over everything else, including staff statements.

Originally posted by No End N Site
3.This canon is not lesser. It is Word of God, given to us via UDON.

See above. Canon tiers dictate on-screen evidence from the source material overrides everything else. if the information contained within the book contadicts primary canon, then primary canon takes presidence. IE: Primary canon = the videogames themselves.

Originally posted by No End N Site
4. No it's not. Matt Moylan has stated on Capcom's own forums that the information provided was taken from translations of the Japanese source books, the American games (USA owns SF now), and the producers themselves. UDON's story arch in not in mind. That is a terrible assumption. There is info given about characters and events that have never even occured and appeared in the comic. Case and point, Ingrid.

Which still leaves ups with the original point. Source material (The games) stll supercede any and all sourcebooks if it's contents contradict the games themselves, despite staff saying one thing or another. Remember this: The 2nd tier of canon is the sourcebooks and development statements, the 1st (highest) order of canon tiers is the games, and the games must take precidence over everything else.

Originally posted by No End N Site
5. You can trust JP sources more than anything, all you want. That's your prerogative and all I can do is respect it. However, it does not and will never change the fact that Cap of Japan gave up on SF and all its other fighting IPs and the USA is the one that gave the series and others the chance it deserves and is now in charge of SF and 90% of Cap's other fighting games.

Only recently did that happen No End, Remeber, before all that happened, CJP had control of the primary canon for the better part of 20 years. This does not mean that CJP ranks lower in authority than Udon...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The fact remains that the sourcebook your using to substantiate your claim directly inferrs to the comic series you just tried to refute. And as I said, higher cannon still refutes it in the form of Gouken's own quote. vague or not, until the power is demonstrated, if it contradicts higher canon, then it's out according to debating rules.

None of what you just posted was true about the SFWWE. Matt Moylan has already told readers that this is for SF, not the comic.



Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I know that, and I'm not accusing you of anything. But uniformity of information is as important as the information itself. T'is why we have rules and tiers of canon.

These 'rules' are wrong, DSZ. Capcom themselves want you to look to this book of canon info, and 95% of the info in the book coincide with canon. You can't just pick what you want.



Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yes you can, if it contradicts the source they are speaking of, then you take on-screen evidence over any individual statements.
I tell you now, there are not many who will agree with holdin' the product itself over the very words of the company that made the product. That sounds backwards.


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your point was producers and development staff's intent, my point was, it does not exist until it's on screen. and until that happens, highest source prevails over everything else, including staff statements.
I disagree for reasons already stated. There would be no need to ask Capcom employees things if everything that appears in the game was true. The fact is that if none of us asked questions, the community as a whole would know alot less about SF. Everything you see in the game is not true.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
See above. Canon tiers dictate on-screen evidence from the source material overrides everything else. if the information contained within the book contadicts primary canon, then primary canon takes presidence. IE: Primary canon = the videogames themselves.
And...For this case...That is wrong.



Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Which still leaves ups with the original point. Source material (The games) stll supercede any and all sourcebooks if it's contents contradict the games themselves, despite staff saying one thing or another. Remember this: The 2nd tier of canon is the sourcebooks and development statements, the 1st (highest) order of canon tiers is the games, and the games must take precidence over everything else.

Again, that's you're version of what matters. The Word of God is the Word of God. Doesn't matter what's in the game if the creators tell you themselves what you need to know.


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Only recently did that happen No End, Remeber, before all that happened, CJP had control of the primary canon for the better part of 20 years. This does not mean that CJP ranks lower in authority than Udon...

Not that recently, Cap USA has owned SF, MVC, CVS, DS, P.Sword, PS (almost all of RS and PJ) and a few others for almost, that last 7 or so years. Everything CapJP has done for those series is owned and controlled by Cap USA. If they want, they could retcon everything and start from scratch. CapJP ranks were ever CapUSA wants it to. And at this point, CapUSA has lef it to UDON to dish out canon facts.

You seem to be confused about the book as a whole. UDON didn't make the book from nothing, clealy, it's official.

Originally posted by No End N Site
None of what you just posted was true about the SFWWE. Matt Moylan has already told readers that this is for SF, not the comic.

Unfortunately, Matt is not the source material.

Originally posted by No End N Site
These 'rules' are wrong, DSZ. Capcom themselves want you to look to this book of canon info, and 95% of the info in the book coincide with canon. You can't just pick what you want.

There 'Wrong' Because.... why again? Because you say so?

No, you can't, thats the entire point of established tiers of canonicity. The secondary sources are as official in parts that Do Not contradict primary canon. The parts that do contradict are considered non canon. These rules are true for any debate.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I tell you now, there are not many who will agree with holdin' the product itself over the very words of the company that made the product. That sounds backwards.

How is it backwards when personal oppinion can be held to a higher standard than what is shown? I'm sorry but that is not logical.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I disagree for reasons already stated. There would be no need to ask Capcom employees things if everything that appears in the game was true. The fact is that if none of us asked questions, the community as a whole would know alot less about SF. Everything you see in the game is not true.

Thats the kind of backward logic that gave rise to oppinionated versions of the story like Tiamat's FAQ and Sado22 clones. Please tell me your not walking that path dude.

Originally posted by No End N Site
And...For this case...That is wrong.

Again, based on what? Look dude, simply giving Gouken Jedah like regen might sound like a good idea for forum debates, but your reasoning is inherently flawed, one for the quote I gave you, and i can give another example.

Gouki's ending, where immediately after learning that Gouken had the power of Mu, he challenged him to a Death Match, knowing that Gouken was eternal would have made this action entirely meaningless. And since he knew what Mu was before Gouken even spoke tells me Gouki had prio knowlege of Mu from the start.

Do you see what I'm pointing out to you? The viable contradictory nature of SFWWE has to the actual source material is plainly obvious. And as stated before, By rule of canonicity, higher canon must take precedence. Or do you seriopusly expect people to swallow book based information over the primary source?

Originally posted by No End N Site
Again, that's you're version of what matters. The Word of God is the Word of God. Doesn't matter what's in the game if the creators tell you themselves what you need to know.

*Shakes head* That only applies if the information they provide is not contradictory to the game. If it is, then the game trumps their oppinion. The reason for this is, as I said the game is simply THE source material.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Not that recently, Cap USA has owned SF, MVC, CVS, DS, P.Sword, PS (almost all of RS and PJ) and a few others for almost, that last 7 or so years. Everything CapJP has done for those series is owned and controlled by Cap USA. If they want, they could retcon everything and start from scratch. CapJP ranks were ever CapUSA wants it to. And at this point, CapUSA has lef it to UDON to dish out canon facts.

Well, until those retcons happen, we take what we have, and when Udon actually makes this in a way that doesn't contradict primary canon, I would be more than happy to eat my humble pie.

Originally posted by No End N Site
You seem to be confused about the book as a whole. UDON didn't make the book from nothing, clealy, it's official.

Your basing this off of what? Vague extrapolation form a guy that even though makes a lot of canon material is not employed by Capcom? His "facts" contradicted primary canon in this case, and until a retcon comes along that dissipates this, i'm afraid I must uphole canon rules.

Dude, we are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Cuz there is simply no gettin' outta this argument. We just think 2 totaly different things. I will say that I have never come across the rules you have presented to me...ever.

^I just bought the book from borders/amazon 2day. Altho, there isn't a lot of Nstances of this, it does seem like Capcom has borrowed a few event's from the Udon comic.

1. Gen fighting Gouki, long B4 SFA. And Gen winning.

2. Rose not being an expulsion of Bison's good half, but another person Ntirely who just happens 2 have the same soul. The roles also seem 2 B reversed from what was said N A3, as Rose is stated 2 B the 1 that taught Bison the Soul power.

3. Ryu and Sagat having fought more than what's been shown N the games. And Ryu even besting Sagat a few times, or at least once. Altho, this has been discovered recently across the board N SFIV.

All and all, not that bad. Not bad @ all. I really don't think rather this book talks about canon or not can B disputed. If Capcom says that's what happened, than we just have 2 accept it. It's always been a shame that the fans have known more about the series than the creators do.

Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
If Capcom says that's what happened, than we just have 2 accept it. It's always been a shame that the fans have known more about the series than the creators do.

This!

And I hate the fact that DSZ would throw in a jab like, "simply giving Gouken Jedah like regen might sound like a good idea for forum debates", when it clearly would be of no use in a debate since it would still take him years to do so. Sensless comments like that have no place in a reasoanble discussion and only helps to start fires.

I found this, also...

http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/5205021/?pg=last#474127985

Originally posted by No End N Site
And I hate the fact that DSZ would throw in a jab like, "simply giving Gouken Jedah like regen might sound like a good idea for forum debates", when it clearly would be of no use in a debate since it would still take him years to do so. Sensless comments like that have no place in a reasoanble discussion and only helps to start fires.

Are you kidding me? My entire line of questioning, (And thusly bringing up rules of canonicity) was in direct response to your first post.

Originally posted by No End N Site
One thing I wanna know, how the hell is Kratos gonna kill Gouken? We are aware that Gouken's immortality is on Jedah level. "The Power of Nothingness" makes him unkillable. Vaporizing his body won't work. Sending his soul to hell...wont work and I aint talkin' about no greek hell (Hades), I'm talkin' about Hell-Hell.

Right here. If Gouken's regen is useless, then why did you bother bringing it up? Your entire defence of your position just crumbled... You based this off of a nonsensical peice found within a sourcebook that is directly contradictory in it's very statement to Gouken's own words in SFIV, and Gouki's own words in the same game.

You then want me to beleive that this supposed source of yours somehow Supercedes the source material in direct violation of tiers of canon, not to mention forum rules when such contradiction exists.

I'm sorry dude, it was not my intention to jump on you, but direct violation of established canon cannot be tollerated... Not for or against anyone. Not if things are supposed to run smoothly.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Right here. If Gouken's regen is useless, then why did you bother bringing it up?

He addressed that here:
Originally posted by No End N Site

4) I take back what I said (I just re-read the passage about Mu), Mu was activated instantly, but Gouken's spirit took several years to create a new body, it was a long process. It didn't take up until SFIV, but it took a while.

^Thank you.

I actually reposted that twice.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Are you kidding me? My entire line of questioning, (And thusly bringing up rules of canonicity) was in direct response to your first post.



Right here. If Gouken's regen is useless, then why did you bother bringing it up? Your entire defence of your position just crumbled... You based this off of a nonsensical peice found within a sourcebook that is directly contradictory in it's very statement to Gouken's own words in SFIV, and Gouki's own words in the same game.

You then want me to beleive that this supposed source of yours somehow Supercedes the source material in direct violation of tiers of canon, not to mention forum rules when such contradiction exists.

I'm sorry dude, it was not my intention to jump on you, but direct violation of established canon cannot be tollerated... Not for or against anyone. Not if things are supposed to run smoothly.

You clearly have not read all my posts in this thread. Have fun

Originally posted by No End N Site
^Thank you.

I actually reposted that twice.



You clearly have not read all my posts in this thread. Have fun

And yet, your still trying to defend the position despite that...

Just cuz it wont help doesn't make it less true. I defend the truth. I know Aku and Gou don't have that huge a chance in this thread, but I gotta make sure motha phuckaz know the facts 1st.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Just cuz it wont help doesn't make it less true. I defend the truth. I know Aku and Gou don't have that huge a chance in this thread, but I gotta make sure motha phuckaz know the facts 1st.

And I would encourage you to do this all the way. My only concern is the fact you've stated arnt nessisarily *Facts* just yet.

Matt Moylan doesn't supercede the source material with his oppinion I'm afraid.

I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. It's not his opinion. It's fact, I posted tons of evidence of this. It's time to move on.

So what is the current verdict on the match?

Originally posted by No End N Site
I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. It's not his opinion. It's fact, I posted tons of evidence of this. It's time to move on.

If it where fact, it wouldn't contradict source material. Sorry dude, but you can have all the evidence outside of the source material you like, but top tier source trumps any secondary tier, thats how it always has worked.

Concession accepted.

DS is cute when he gets going.

^ Isn't he? I just wanna pinch'im some time. lol

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
If it where fact, it wouldn't contradict source material. Sorry dude, but you can have all the evidence outside of the source material you like, but top tier source trumps any secondary tier, thats how it always has worked.

Concession accepted.

As long as 'you' think so, that's all that matters. Have a blessed week.

..........Zzzzzzzz.......

Sorry, you talking to me?

Capcom USA does not own the Street Fighter. It never has.

Gouken actually did not stop the SGS, he canceled it. SGS is unstoppable. But also, it cannot take any effect on Gouken as his Power of nothingness protects him from basically everything.

You cannot know Akuma's durability as it was never shown/told.

Gouken creating the new body? Show me the source of that, I am very interested.
It is notable that Gouken has awakened, not created a new body.

Originally posted by b64
Capcom USA does not own the Street Fighter. It never has.

Yes it does...

Originally posted by b64
Gouken actually did not stop the SGS, he canceled it. SGS is unstoppable. But also, it cannot take any effect on Gouken as his Power of nothingness protects him from basically everything.

Yeah, we know.

Originally posted by b64
You cannot know Akuma's durability as it was never shown/told..

You are right, we don't know Akuma's "full" drability.


Originally posted by b64
Gouken creating the new body? Show me the source of that, I am very interested.
It is notable that Gouken has awakened, not created a new body.

SFWWE is the source material where it was stated that he created a new body. I posted this a few pages back.

I do not know what makes you think that Capcom USA owns Street Fighter, as the developer and publisher is Capcom of Japan. Capcom USA owns Final Fight Streetwise, but it has nothing to do with Street Fighter.

SFWWE doesn't decide what is canon. You can clearly see in Akuma's ending that "There is no mistaking in his sensing that Gouken has awakened."

Originally posted by b64
I do not know what makes you think that Capcom USA owns Street Fighter, as the developer and publisher is Capcom of Japan. Capcom USA owns Final Fight Streetwise, but it has nothing to do with Street Fighter.

Wrong...

Originally posted by b64
SFWWE doesn't decide what is canon. You can clearly see in Akuma's ending that "There is no mistaking in his sensing that Gouken has awakened."

Wrong...

Hah. You could try to prove it instead of being ignorant. There is no point debating with you as you are inventing your own storyline which has nothing to do with canon.

All of info I wrote is correct and confirmed as canon.

You are just trying to false the facts.

I shouldn't have to prove to any "SF fan" in 2010 that Capcom USA has aquired the rights to SF and 90% of all ther other Capcom fightin' games. If you don't even know that, then your trully not worth debatin' or even talkin' to on the subject.

And you should try readin' through this measly 6 page thread before you make an ass outta yourself. You haven't posted anything but some crap from an endin' that's not even confirmed to be canon. I've posted link after link of OFFICIAL evidence so pleez, cut the the crap and quit bein' lazy and read the damn thread.

Have a blessed night

Originally posted by No End N Site
I shouldn't have to prove to any "SF fan" in 2010 that Capcom USA has aquired the rights to SF and 90% of all ther other Capcom fightin' games. No you don't have to. But proper debating procedure dictates you should.

"Debating Procedure"? There is no "debatin' procedure". If you don't know that Capcom USA hired Capcom JP to make SFIV, than you just showed you don't know all the facts.

I can choose to walk away, rather than fetch information for someone who should already know. It wouldn't be such a hard thing to do if he had just said, he didn't know and wanted to see. But to come outta no where and say I'm flat out wrong about something that should be common knowledge makes me take him less seriously now.

The problem isn't that he's wrong. Everyone's wrong sometimes. The fact is, he said "I" was wrong without actually researchin' what I said 1st. What ever happened to people researchin' claims before shootin'em down?

The Street Fighter IV producer is Yoshinori Ono. I don't see how is he connected to Capcom USA, as he works in Capcom Japan.

Your very statement that SFWWE decides what is actually canon is silly itself.

No sources from USA decide what canon is. You obviously need to read the SF Plot from GameFaqs. The only games Capcom USA owns and made itself are Mighty Final Fight and Final Fight Streetwise (FFW also needed to be comfurmed by Capcom J). Capcom USA really owns nothing more than that and cannot decide what is authentic.

I will give you the pure example.

In the original version of Muscle Bomber (Storyline based in 1982), Capcom said that the plot is taking place before Haggar became Metro City mayor. In the USA version, Haggar is described as "former Metro City major". Guess what statement is canon? The one stated by Capcom Japan, as it always has the final word. There are many mistakes made by USA Capcom that make no sense.

If you still think that Capcom USA decides anything in Street Fighter, then you are truly stubborn.

All you have is a plenty of random non-confirmed quotes and link which sends you to the discussion about UDON Street Fighter Comic Book.

It is now pointless to continue the discussion as I don't know what exactly makes you believe that Capcom USA owns anything more than games mentioned above.

I took the name 'b64' to represent the website that is Capcom fighting games related and connected to the other websites for ages. (View my profile).

I wanted to reveal to you some things you didn't know, but looks like you just don't want to accept it.

You should read the FAQ Street Fighter Plot Guide revealed on GameFaqs.com

Originally posted by b64
All you have is a plenty of random non-confirmed quotes and link which sends you to the discussion about UDON Street Fighter Comic Book.

It is now pointless to continue the discussion as I don't know what exactly makes you believe that Capcom USA owns anything more than games mentioned above.

I took the name 'b64' to represent the website that is Capcom fighting games related and connected to the other websites for ages. (View my profile).

I wanted to reveal to you some things you didn't know, but looks like you just don't want to accept it.

Lulz, how foolish. Really nice try, but I'm afraid you lose. I posted the quotes and then the links under them to show you where exactly I got them from. You don't even take the time to read through the sites I linked you to and you just go on and on about nothin'.

B-bye now

P.S. 'Read that FAQ up and down for years and it's great (speak to the people who made all those faqs regularly, just so you know), but you should consider spendin' some actual cash on some official material. Unofficial non licensed FAQ<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Official current material. Lol.

I am connected with people who are making the FAQ's. Official material like the sources from SFWWE? That is silly. You don't know much about Capcom as well.

Like surzly dude. Whatever, go away. Anyone with eyes can see ya don't know WTF yur talkin' about.

Enough....

Let it go, both of you...

Seriously, Something needs to be done. We need to set6 up the established rules of canon AGAIN because people here tend to forget...

And while I disagree with No-Name's use of unsuported sourcebooks, I have a much STRONGER disagreement with using Tiamat's FAQ as any form of canonical value.

While the FAQ is a good read, unless you know how to use the information supplied within by backing it up with source information, it is utterly worthless in a debating sense.

Unsuported only to you. Capcom supports it and I think every other person on this section of the forum can agree that when Ono says something about SF, it is canon until he or someone else with greater knowledge says otherwise. Even if it contradicts what's said in the game. This is why the UDON team went to the SFIV team for answres.

"He said most likely it would not be address/spelled out directly in the game, but if we wanted to address it we should us that explanation."

You really want to start this again dude? fine...

Originally posted by No End N Site
Unsuported only to you. Capcom supports it and I think every other person on this section of the forum can agree that when Ono says something about SF, it is canon until he or someone else with greater knowledge says otherwise. Even if it contradicts what's said in the game. This is why the UDON team went to the SFIV team for answres.

You made the positive claim, you have to provide NON contradictory evidence to support it. It's not my fault, nor my problem that Ono's oppinion contadicts the actual display within the game. I cannot be any more clear about this dude, until the evidence is either confirmed to be what it is within the game, or at the very least does not contradict it, then, and ONLY then can it be seen as fact rather than beleif or oppinion.

Again, I'll reinterate this, you need to provide non-contradicting evidence to support yourself for this, and I'm not even the one against you, but if you try to use this, others will rip it to shreds to tear debates apart (Imagines what would happen if Sado was still here.... *Shudders*)

Originally posted by No End N Site
"He said most likely it would not be address/spelled out directly in the game, but if we wanted to address it we should us that explanation."

Like I said, it's contradicted within the priomary source by character dialogue and events... How can we possibly reconcile these discrepancies?

The only possible way we can do that is if we disreguard primary source in favour of this, which is ludicrous and would be utterly illogical.

C'mon you 3 lovebirds. Does Kratos have his haxx equipment here?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You really want to start this again dude? fine...



You made the positive claim, you have to provide NON contradictory evidence to support it. It's not my fault, nor my problem that Ono's oppinion contadicts the actual display within the game. I cannot be any more clear about this dude, until the evidence is either confirmed to be what it is within the game, or at the very least does not contradict it, then, and ONLY then can it be seen as fact rather than beleif or oppinion.

Again, I'll reinterate this, you need to provide non-contradicting evidence to support yourself for this, and I'm not even the one against you, but if you try to use this, others will rip it to shreds to tear debates apart (Imagines what would happen if Sado was still here.... *Shudders*)



Like I said, it's contradicted within the priomary source by character dialogue and events... How can we possibly reconcile these discrepancies?

The only possible way we can do that is if we disreguard primary source in favour of this, which is ludicrous and would be utterly illogical.

Dude, 'you' just knocked me in the previous post. That's why I responded. 'You' started this up again.

You need to understand that the creators of the game can overwrite the entire game's canon with just their words alone. Examples...

1. Creators said Poison was a dude. This clearly contradicts what's in the game.

2. SFA1 is not canon, nothin' in the games before or after states that this game is canon or not. We know it's not cuz the creators said so.

3. In SFA3, characters like Dan and Fei Long beat Bison. How do we know that these things didn't happened? The creators said so.

4. Ryu beat Sagat fair and square at 1st. It was later retconed that he went Evil. How do we know that? Cuz the creators said so.

The in-game's story is tailor made to fit the character you play as. That's not what's really canon. That's the whole point of why producers and developers give information in the source books because everything in the game is not true. The game itself is not the primary source of canon. The minds of the people who 'made' the game are the primary source.

Also, I haven't seen a single official source state Gouken was in a coma. The game only says he 'awakened' and "regained consciousness". Those are very vague things. Both of these things are said about Jedah (for example) even though we know his body was destroyed, completely. Gaining 'consciousness' and or 'awakening' can mean many different things. Bison's soul vacates his body and he hops in a newly created one all the time, using tech and Psycho Power. Is it really that hard to believe that Gouken can do the same thing usin' Mu, even if The Producer ( the guy who has to look at everything and oversee the entire project to ensure the best quality) says so?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Does Kratos have his haxx equipment here?

Just the Blades of Exile, the Fleece, the second weakest 'Rage' Mode in the series, and Typhon's Bane.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Dude, 'you' just knocked me in the previous post. That's why I responded. 'You' started this up again.

No, I stated why I disagreed with you earlier in this thread, and in the exact same sentence, I stated why I disagree with b64 more... I didn't actually "Start" a thing.

Originally posted by No End N Site
You need to understand that the creators of the game can overwrite the entire game's canon with just their words alone. Examples...

The problem with this is it creates undemonstratable vagrities within canon. Vagrities which become unprovable within debates such as these.

Originally posted by No End N Site
1. Creators said Poison was a dude. This clearly contradicts what's in the game.

Which means nothing in a VS debate. This discrepancy was made by CAPCOM of Japan from as far back as the original Final Fight due to the release of Poison's Bio.

Originally posted by No End N Site
2. SFA1 is not canon, nothin' in the games before or after states that this game is canon or not. We know it's not cuz the creators said so.

No, we know this because newer canon overrides old canon. in SFA was canon, it'sendings would clash with newer canon, rendering it obsolite. Since the release of Street Fighter Alpha 2, and Alpha 2 Gold, SFA has been obsolite.

Originally posted by No End N Site
3. In SFA3, characters like Dan and Fei Long beat Bison. How do we know that these things didn't happened? The creators said so.

Perhaps, but that doesn't stop people from using them amirite?

Seriously, if those endings where canon, the entire series would be fecked sideways. none of those endings are canon, because they follow a series of events, and Bison dies only once in A3.

Originally posted by No End N Site
4. Ryu beat Sagat fair and square at 1st. It was later retconed that he went Evil. How do we know that? Cuz the creators said so.

We know this because of a Retcon... Which has not happened in this case.

Originally posted by No End N Site
The in-game's story is tailor made to fit the character you play as. That's not what's really canon. That's the whole point of why producers and developers give information in the source books because everything in the game is not true. The game itself is not the primary source of canon. The minds of the people who 'made' the game are the primary source.

Listen to what your saying for a moment, and tell me this - you've played the entire game franchize with every character available right? If so, you would know there are a few vagrities and plotholes, empty spaces that make you scratch your head, so you go looking through official material to fill the gaps of the story. Perfectly reasonable. However, if you read something that contradicts what you know to be officially recognised within the game to be right, do you then take the sourcebook's interpretation to be the correct one because it's more conveniant?

you forget, Matt is not a CAPCOM employee, he may be an Advisor at times, but that does not give him the ability to overwrite primary canon.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Also, I haven't seen a single official source state Gouken was in a coma. The game only says he 'awakened' and "regained consciousness". Those are very vague things. Both of these things are said about Jedah (for example) even though we know his body was destroyed, completely. Gaining 'consciousness' and or 'awakening' can mean many different things. Bison's soul vacates his body and he hops in a newly created one all the time, using tech and Psycho Power. Is it really that hard to believe that Gouken can do the same thing usin' Mu, even if The Producer ( the guy who has to look at everything and oversee the entire project to ensure the best quality) says so?

Because it's not demonstratable. We know that Gouken was technically 'Dead' for a number of years, we know he came back, we know he looks a little older than he did back when Gouki SGSed him, we know Ryu & Ken recognized him on sight, we know Akuma recognised his power for what it was when the SGS failed the 2nd time, We know Gouki is capable of killing him in other ways due to after having recognised Mu in Gouken, he immediately challenged Gouken to a Death Match, and we know that Mu is not a force of creation. Logic dictates that Gouken was not 'Destroyed' or 'Killed' at all when he fell to the 1st SGS, merely rendered unconscious, because that was his first true test & use of Mu ever.

You can take Matt's interpretation if you like, hell CAPCOM itself can if they like, but until that Retcon happens, we have to follow what is. we cannot make assumptions like that until it is confirmed.

Gouken can win without Akuma

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, I stated why I disagreed with you earlier in this thread, and in the exact same sentence, I stated why I disagree with b64 more... I didn't actually "Start" a thing.



The problem with this is it creates undemonstratable vagrities within canon. Vagrities which become unprovable within debates such as these.



Which means nothing in a VS debate. This discrepancy was made by CAPCOM of Japan from as far back as the original Final Fight due to the release of Poison's Bio.



No, we know this because newer canon overrides old canon. in SFA was canon, it'sendings would clash with newer canon, rendering it obsolite. Since the release of Street Fighter Alpha 2, and Alpha 2 Gold, SFA has been obsolite.



Perhaps, but that doesn't stop people from using them amirite?

Seriously, if those endings where canon, the entire series would be fecked sideways. none of those endings are canon, because they follow a series of events, and Bison dies only once in A3.



We know this because of a Retcon... Which has not happened in this case.



Listen to what your saying for a moment, and tell me this - you've played the entire game franchize with every character available right? If so, you would know there are a few vagrities and plotholes, empty spaces that make you scratch your head, so you go looking through official material to fill the gaps of the story. Perfectly reasonable. However, if you read something that contradicts what you know to be officially recognised within the game to be right, do you then take the sourcebook's interpretation to be the correct one because it's more conveniant?

you forget, Matt is not a CAPCOM employee, he may be an Advisor at times, but that does not give him the ability to overwrite primary canon.



Because it's not demonstratable. We know that Gouken was technically 'Dead' for a number of years, we know he came back, we know he looks a little older than he did back when Gouki SGSed him, we know Ryu & Ken recognized him on sight, we know Akuma recognised his power for what it was when the SGS failed the 2nd time, We know Gouki is capable of killing him in other ways due to after having recognised Mu in Gouken, he immediately challenged Gouken to a Death Match, and we know that Mu is not a force of creation. Logic dictates that Gouken was not 'Destroyed' or 'Killed' at all when he fell to the 1st SGS, merely rendered unconscious, because that was his first true test & use of Mu ever.

You can take Matt's interpretation if you like, hell CAPCOM itself can if they like, but until that Retcon happens, we have to follow what is. we cannot make assumptions like that until it is confirmed.

1. You didn't have to mention me at all. I argued with b64 while keepin' yur name outta my mouth the entire time. You coulda shown me the same respect and did the same. You didn't, and clearly took a shot at me, callin' my evidence "unsupported". You started this back up and you can try to play innocent all you want but what you did wasn't called for if you didn't wanna drag some shit back up.

2. That's your problem. You can't make up what's canon and what's not just so you can have an air tight defense in nerdy VS debates. What they say is what's canon, rather it's stupid/makes sense or not. They are the master of their creations.

3. Means everything in this debate. You just failed to grasp the point.

4. Most of the shit that's in SFA1 doesn't override shit. We know it aint canon cuz Capcom said it wasn't and that SFA2 is.

5. Bison dies multiple times in A3, so says the SFEC. And we know SFA3 follows a series of events cuz the creators said so. The game itself fails to indicate the order of events and only eludes to ONE ending actually being canon.

6. The retcon was stated by Capcom and accepted by fans, sometime before it was implemented in the actual games.

7. YES! You clearly don't understand the point of a SOURCE book.

Lulz, Matt got the info from an EMPLOYEE of Capcom. The phuckin' producer, dude. Matt didn't just make it up. Like seriously...you keep forgettin' this.

8. Listen to yourself. He gets phucked up by an SGS and comes back, no scars, didn't see'im rise from his grave or nothin'. Ryu visits his grave every year and noticed no dirt unturned or anything. He just appears in SFIV. What Ono says is true, man.

Let's take it easy guys, no need to get riled up.

Originally posted by No End N Site
1. You didn't have to mention me at all. I argued with b64 while keepin' yur name outta my mouth the entire time. You coulda shown me the same respect and did the same. You didn't, and clearly took a shot at me, callin' my evidence "unsupported". You started this back up and you can try to play innocent all you want but what you did wasn't called for if you didn't wanna drag some shit back up.

Ok, apparently I cannot say anything, even though I made my point perfectly clear in this very same thread... Fine, do what you want. I said what I said because I didn't want to be accused of hypocriticism by b64. If I had challenged only his point of view without reiterating my opposition of yours, it would have made me look like I was going back on what I had said earlier in the thread, nothing more, and I didn't drag you or your name through the mud dude. I am allowed to challenge others oppinions the same as you and anyone else.

Originally posted by No End N Site
2. That's your problem. You can't make up what's canon and what's not just so you can have an air tight defense in nerdy VS debates. What they say is what's canon, rather it's stupid/makes sense or not. They are the master of their creations.

No, it becomes yours when you challenge the rules of canon by simply taking one source over another.

Originally posted by No End N Site
3. Means everything in this debate. You just failed to grasp the point.

You made no point exept to throw out an already explained event... That has been made canon ages ago, it's hardly the same thing.

Originally posted by No End N Site
4. Most of the shit that's in SFA1 doesn't override shit. We know it aint canon cuz Capcom said it wasn't and that SFA2 is.

Your not reading what I wrote....

I said SFA1 has been made non canon because it conflicts with SFA2 & 3. Argo, it follows the rule of newer canon overriding older canon... Now, which is older? SFA1 or SFA2, thats right, SFA1 is older, and this gets overwritten by SFA2 storyline as the official canon.

Originally posted by No End N Site
5. Bison dies multiple times in A3, so says the SFEC. And we know SFA3 follows a series of events cuz the creators said so. The game itself fails to indicate the order of events and only eludes to ONE ending actually being canon.

I happen to have a copy of SFEC right here, and it does not allude to any endings canonicity at all... Thank you.

Originally posted by No End N Site
6. The retcon was stated by Capcom and accepted by fans, sometime before it was implemented in the actual games.

*Shakes head* Where is it implemented? I see no indications of a retcon in the games like I saw with Sagat's loss to Dark Ryu.

Originally posted by No End N Site
7. YES! You clearly don't understand the point of a SOURCE book.

Lulz, Matt got the info from an EMPLOYEE of Capcom. The phuckin' producer, dude. Matt didn't just make it up. Like seriously...you keep forgettin' this.

The only problem is, it hasn't been IMPLEMENTED YET, you keep forgetting this.

Originally posted by No End N Site
8. Listen to yourself. He gets phucked up by an SGS and comes back, no scars, didn't see'im rise from his grave or nothin'. Ryu visits his grave every year and noticed no dirt unturned or anything. He just appears in SFIV. What Ono says is true, man.

Exept that, you know, Ryu's been busy with 2 tourneys and the war with Shadaloo and S.I.N. and struggling with the Satsui No Hadou and all that.

Basically what this means is that we know certain things about Gouken's revival, and not one bloody indication of him pulling a new body out of thin air. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And unless CAPCOM has retards working for them, they would have made that clear in his story, which they didn't.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Ok, apparently I cannot say anything, even though I made my point perfectly clear in this very same thread... Fine, do what you want. I said what I said because I didn't want to be accused of hypocriticism by b64. If I had challenged only his point of view without reiterating my opposition of yours, it would have made me look like I was going back on what I had said earlier in the thread, nothing more, and I didn't drag you or your name through the mud dude. I am allowed to challenge others oppinions the same as you and anyone else.



No, it becomes yours when you challenge the rules of canon by simply taking one source over another.



You made no point exept to throw out an already explained event... That has been made canon ages ago, it's hardly the same thing.



Your not reading what I wrote....

I said SFA1 has been made non canon because it conflicts with SFA2 & 3. Argo, it follows the rule of newer canon overriding older canon... Now, which is older? SFA1 or SFA2, thats right, SFA1 is older, and this gets overwritten by SFA2 storyline as the official canon.



I happen to have a copy of SFEC right here, and it does not allude to any endings canonicity at all... Thank you.



*Shakes head* Where is it implemented? I see no indications of a retcon in the games like I saw with Sagat's loss to Dark Ryu.



The only problem is, it hasn't been IMPLEMENTED YET, you keep forgetting this.



Exept that, you know, Ryu's been busy with 2 tourneys and the war with Shadaloo and S.I.N. and struggling with the Satsui No Hadou and all that.

Basically what this means is that we know certain things about Gouken's revival, and not one bloody indication of him pulling a new body out of thin air. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And unless CAPCOM has retards working for them, they would have made that clear in his story, which they didn't.

1. No you wouldn't have. You coulda just said that you didn't agree with me and you also didn't agree with b64. You didn't have to take the shot you took. You have the right to say whatever the phuck you want, but don't try to play innocent when I call you out on it.

2. That's not what's goin' on dude...

3. The point was, we think Poison's a dude cuz Capcom said so. It has never once been written anywhere IN THE GAME that she was. And it still isn't said IN THE GAME. Your pickin' what sources you want to suit yourself. That's my point.

4. I read what you wrote and it's still bull shit. SFA2 doesn't even conflict with half the shit in SFA1. And we sure as in hell don't just forget A2 cuz of A3. THE SHIT THAT DOESN'T CONFLICT WITH A2 STILL ISN'T CANON IN A1 CUZ CAPCOM SAID SO. My point for Christ's sake.

5. Street Fighter Eternal Challenge
Bison's continual reappearances despite A NUMBER OF DEATHS were attributed to the existence of the Psycho Drive...

CLEARLY, it's sayin' that some of the endings are canon. We know that he only dies ONCE in every ending. Meanin' that SEVERAL endings are canon. Unlike the game, which contradicts what's written and displays each character killin' Bison off ONCE and not tellin' which one is canon.

Now surzly, how are you gonna argue with this?

6.00 Goddammit, you missed the shit outta the meanin' of what I just posted. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE IMPLEMENTED IN THE GAME TO BE CANON. We never see Bison in Rose's body implemented into the game and we know it still happened cuz Capcom said so.

7. Right, he's been hunted down by Bison and strugglin' with the SNH since Alpha and still manages to visit Gouken's grave every year. You mean to tell me that Ryu hasn't been back to Suzaku castle since A3?

umm guys, this is Kratos vs Akuma remember?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Let's take it easy guys, no need to get riled up.

I'm not riled up, but surzly, you have to read what this guy is sayin'. If you did, you'd be like WTF?! Example...

It's like me paintin' a picture of a kid sprawled out on the ground with half his brain hangin' outta his head, cuz he just fell outta window. I mean, I drew Xs over his eyes and everything. O'course anyone who sees my art will think he's dead. Evidence points to him being dead. So, you come up to me and ask me, "Damn! Why did you a paint a kid comittin' suicide?", and I say "Oh, he's not dead, he just hurt himself." Now are you gonna say, "NO! THAT CONTRADICTS WHAT'S IN THE PAINTING!!! And he won't be alive, like you say, until you paint another piece that shows him up on his feet!"


Now, are you gonna say that, or are you gonna be like, "Hmmmm, he looks pretty dead to me but since it's your work, if you say he's not, than that's good to know."?

Originally posted by Phanteros
umm guys, this is Kratos vs Akuma remember? Actually is Kratos vs. Akuma and Gouken.