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Lightsaber duel - no other Force powers, except those which enhance one's lightsaber ability (i.e. precog, Force-speed, Force-enhanced agility, etc...).

Originally posted by
Jinsoku Takai: 7
Lightsaber duel - no other Force powers, except those which enhance one's lightsaber ability (i.e. precog, Force-speed, Force-enhanced agility, etc...).

Kas'im takes it with the main contributing factor being his vastly superior technique.

Yoda takes it with the main contributing factor being his vastly superior speed, skills and years of training.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yoda takes it with the main contributing factor being his vastly superior speed, skills and years of training.

Agreed!

Originally posted by
Slash_KMC: 4
Yoda takes it with the main contributing factor being his vastly superior speed, skills and years of training.

I don't believe any such vastly superior speed has been demonstrated, the skills appear to firmly be in Kas'im's court, and years of training is simply a means to an end, not an end in itself, and in this case it would appear that it contributed to the end (technique) in an insignificant manner given Yoda's relative lack of practise by the PT and what appears to be a relative lack of complete, overall ability, next to Kas'im's mastery of every form.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I don't believe any such vastly superior speed has been demonstrated,

No? He was able to more than just keep up with the strongest Sith Lord ever who briefly before blitzkrieged some of the Order's best.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
the skills appear to firmly be in Kas'im's court,

Yoda's skill are above those of Dooku, the master of duelling.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
and years of training is simply a means to an end, not an end in itself, and in this case it would appear that it contributed to the end (technique) in an insignificant manner given Yoda's relative lack of practise by the PT and what appears to be a relative lack of complete, overall ability, next to Kas'im's mastery of every form.

How is 800 years of lightsaber training not an advantage? I suppose this is Yoda as of RotS who had just been in the greatest war the galaxy had ever known. How exactly does Yoda lack practice when he is in a constant combat situation?

Yoda lacks complete overall ability? Are we talking about the same most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known?

How is Kas'im's mastery of every form an advantage when Yoda himself has mastered every form?

Bane was kicking Kasim's ass until he used a strange style to him. How would Kasim hold more then 30 seconds against yoda, I don't know...

Originally posted by
Slash_KMC: 4
No? He was able to more than just keep up with the strongest Sith Lord ever who briefly before blitzkrieged some of the Order's best.

And by the same token Kas'im has no problem being able to at least move fast enough to meet Darth Bane's attacks head on, who himself showed domination over relatively impressive Force Users in the speed department, such as when he moved fast enough to perform a combination against someone as powerful as a prepared and battle engaged Sirak (regarded as the most powerful student at the Academy; the students themselves were regarded as the most powerful Force Users in the order) with a physical description indicative of the greatest display of speed we've ever seen. The point being, both combatants have demonstrated the capacity to operate in a realm of speed that would overwhelm lesser but still powerful Force Users. You still haven't brought any evidence to the table that would suggest that Yoda has a vast speed advantage, or even an advantage at all.



Nothing suggest that Dooku even slightly compares to Kas'im either, and it hasn't been demonstrated that Yoda's even the more skilled of the two of them.



It's not a direct advantage, it's a means to an end; the end in question is realised by more than just that mean.



Well for one, it's noted that not a single Jedi in the temple had ever seen him hold a lightsaber around the time of TPM (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, under his section), clearly indicating that he didn't spar with the other Jedi, and that he didn't value such a level of practise to partake in it, at least at that point in time. Secondly, months into the Clone Wars, when asked by another Jedi whether he wanted to spar with him, he replies saying that his battle with Dooku (AotC) was practise enough (this is in Jedi: Mace Windu), clearly indicating that his stance on the matter hadn't especially changed. Lastly, in Dark Rendezvous, it's noted that he and Mace Windu rarely left the temple, even with all the battles being waged around them, and for the battles that he did take part in, one of the roles he largely played was that of a general, not necessarily even calling his combat ability to battle, and even when he did directly participate, he still had his Force abilities to fall back on, and what lightsaber action he did see, would, with rare exception, be against a type of enemy that functions completely different from a swordsman, and as such his skills, as far as how they pertain to a lightsaber duel, likely wouldn't have been tested at all, save for the random duels he took part in against other Force Users such as Dooku in Dark Rendezvous.

The point being, his more recent training and experience doesn't speak very well to how skilled he would be at the point in time in question.



As far as all evidence suggests that he specialised in a single form and rarely practised his skills, that would be what it seems, yes.



Something that isn't necessarily true, and could be indicative of a number of things.



It's never been demonstrated that Yoda's even come close to mastering all seven forms, and all evidence on the matter would suggest that his level of mastery by the time of RotS would be largely lacking.

Kas'im on the other hand, not only mastered every form, but spent hours every day maintaining and improving his skills until his very death. On paper, his technical ability is more complete and versatile than Yoda's, he's more immediately familiar with the moves and combinations he'll be bringing to the table, and not only can Yoda not be said to possess anything in his arsenal that Kas'im won't be prepared for, but it's likely that he'll be unfamiliar with a large portion of what Kas'im can immediately bring.

"Bane was kicking Kasim's ass until he used a strange style to him. How would Kasim hold more then 30 seconds against yoda, I don't know..."

The fact that it's likely Bane was better than Yoda, Kas'im could also use a strange style to Yoda, and that Yoda wouldn't be as prepared against Kas'im or with the terrain as Bane had been? Among numerous other reasons of course...

Really? I guess his sparring matches w/ Mace Windu and Count Dooku never happened then.



According to the narrative, it's true. But I suppose your opinion trumps that, right?

Because saying "According to the narrative, it's true." is the same thing as establishing a definitive level of trust in the given narration and a definitive place in continuity, right?

Yoda. Easily.

Also Bane sucks and the Bane books were garbage.

Regarding Yoda's sparring matches with Mace Windu and Count Dooku, I'm open to the possibility that the sparring match with Mace Windu took place after the point in time to which the quote relates, and that Count Dooku was no longer a Jedi at the same given point in time, meaning there's no necessary clash between the sources, and even if there were, and we had to evaluate which fits into the greater continuity more aptly, we could consider the superior number of sources that point to Yoda's lack of current practise with the weapon, as well as the idea that he once sparred with both Mace Windu and Count Dooku not establishing anything to the contrary.

Is that supposed to offend me? I've read books written by the likes of Stephen King, H.P. Lovecraft and Arthur C. Clarke. In the grand scheme of things, the Bane books suck, and epically so. They're still better than the vast majority of the Star Wars EU, however, and Bane is one of the better characters.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Regarding Yoda's sparring matches with Mace Windu and Count Dooku, I'm open to the possibility that the sparring match with Mace Windu took place after the point in time to which the quote relates, and that Count Dooku was no longer a Jedi at the same given point in time, meaning there's no necessary clash between the sources, and even if there were, and we had to evaluate which fits into the greater continuity more aptly, we could consider the superior number of sources that point to Yoda's lack of current practise with the weapon, as well as the idea that he once sparred with both Mace Windu and Count Dooku not establishing anything to the contrary.

Dooku was a Jedi at the time they sparred (multiple times). As for Windu, yes, it's a possibility. Now, regarding your multiple sources; be more specific with regards to name, author, etc. How do said sources fit into the SW canon?

No, I was saying that Dooku may not have been a Jedi at the point in time the quote saying that no Jedi in the temple had ever seen him with a lightsaber referred to.

Jedi: Mace Windu, within the first ten pages. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, within the first chapter. Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, under Yoda's section.

It's hard to say how exactly they fit into the wider SW canon, but given the quantity of the sources essentially stating the same thing, it appears to be the picture being painted, and the most likely truth is that as of RotS Yoda's recent training and experience with a lightsaber was pretty poor, especially next to Kas'im's.

Good glad you agree with me. Although Lovecraft isn't that great...

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I don't believe any such vastly superior speed has been demonstrated, the skills appear to firmly be in Kas'im's court, and years of training is simply a means to an end, not an end in itself, and in this case it would appear that it contributed to the end (technique) in an insignificant manner given Yoda's relative lack of practise by the PT and what appears to be a relative lack of complete, overall ability, next to Kas'im's mastery of every form.

please list for me the notable people Kas'im has beaten in a duel

Please, Lovecraft is the man. He's the second best storyteller to ever appear in the book medium, after Stephen King of course.

Lovecraft is a good storyteller but a terrible writer. This quote from Lin Carter is probably my favorite quote about Lovecraft ever.
"He has no ability at all for creating character, or for writing dialogue. His prose is stilted, artificial, affected. It is also very overwritten, verbose, and swimming in adjectives. His plotting is frequently mechanical, and his major stylistic device, which becomes tiresome, is the simple trick of withholding the final revelation until the terminal sentence--and then printing it in italics, presumably for maximum shock value."

And lets face it, one can only read they word "cyclopean" so many times before bashing their head into their euclidean desk.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Kas'im takes it with the main contributing factor being his vastly superior technique. Yoda takes it with the main contributing factor being his vastly superior technique.

Well better that than a good writer, terrible storyteller! The story is ultimately what matters when it comes to a work of fiction, with the writing only being of importance as far as what effect it has on the audience's perception of the story. In which case I think H.P. Lovecraft and Stephen King's writing serves that purpose perfectly. Reading a story is ultimately a very disengaging process: more thought and work has to go into comprehending the story than any other medium, and it takes your senses (a very powerful tool in taking information in) completely out of the process, so when a writer is able to create the experience of reading as seamless as possible, and the barrier between written word and story as thin as possible, that is when it is being well written. Which the likes of King and Lovecraft do perfectly. Something else I think Lovecraft is pretty much unique at doing is in actually creating a genuinely terrifying environment, something that no other writer has even come remotely close to doing, for me at least.

Interestingly enough the same kind of thing can be said for Drew Karpyshyn within the realm of the Star Wars EU. No other SW writer creates as seamless a reading - story experience as Drew does, which makes his writing the best for the purpose it serves, even if it isn't technically very well written.

Really? I think Karpyshyn writes as if he's targeting an audience of teenagers. I couldn't even get halfway through DoE the writing was so trite. I don't care how good the premise of the story is, or how it plays out. If I'm actually rolling my eyes at the dialogue and sighing every few pages...

Well as I said it's not techically very well written, but it's written in a way that allows more seamless immersion than something like, the Thrawn Trilogy, or Shadows of the Empire, as examples.

Whoops, this was supposed to come out as:

"And by the same token Kas'im has no problem being able to at least move fast enough to meet Darth Bane's attacks head on, who himself showed domination over relatively impressive Force Users in the speed department, such as when he moved fast enough to perform a combination against someone as powerful as a prepared and battle engaged Sirak (regarded as the most powerful student at the Academy; the students themselves were regarded as the most powerful Force Users in the order) before he could react, with a physical description indicative of the greatest display of speed we've ever seen. The point being, both combatants have demonstrated the capacity to operate in a realm of speed that would overwhelm lesser but still powerful Force Users. You still haven't brought any evidence to the table that would suggest that Yoda has a vast speed advantage, or even an advantage at all."

Karpyshyn is good, I guess, but he's no Chris Avellone imo.

Hey Neb, have you ever read the book House of Leaves?

You might enjoy it a lot. It one of my favorites.

Speaking of bad writing, never forget that Karen Traviss has made it canon fact that Jacen Solo had 3 hands...

I wish I had three hands.

Why are you people suddenly calling me "Neb"?

Originally posted by
*Zampano*: 8.75
Hey Neb, have you ever read the book House of Leaves?

You might enjoy it a lot. It one of my favorites.

After reading the wikipedia page this actually looks like a very cool book, and is now on my "to read next" list. The format seems like it could be very effective. I'm not really too big a fan of satire however, though horror and romance are great. Is there anything else like it at all with a similar format?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Why are you people suddenly calling me "Neb"?



After reading the wikipedia page this actually looks like a very cool book, and is now on my "to read next" list. The format seems like it could be very effective. I'm not really too big a fan of satire however, though horror and romance are great. Is there anything else like it at all with a similar format?

Because.

neb usually owns up... so mebbe its not him.

No, it's Neb.

I just noticed he has a Fallout(ish) name.

Bane is very possibly the greatest Sith Lord of all time, because of his incredible powers. Kas'sim was more technically skilled than Bane, and therefore obviously more technically skilled than the puny Yoda. Kas'sim was also very powerful in the force since he was able to keep from being pulverized by a force push from the mighty bane. This is obviously enough to deal with anything the puny Yoda can throw at him.

****!!! STOP IT!! Need... bacon... yes bacon... that'll ease the pain

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
please list for me the notable people Kas'im has beaten in a duel

He was beating Bane. That's pretty obvious. I don't know what more you want. His technical skill is second to none, and Yoda is gonna get roooooolllled.

Kas'im will rain down ownage from his ROFLcopter.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
****!!! STOP IT!! Need... bacon... yes bacon... that'll ease the pain
u kno... i don't think i actually AM going to stop it... I think it'll be fun to rely on common sense and our imagination for awhile.

Let's IMAGINE what could happen, and then debate that. mhmm?

yeah.

Given that Kas'im is not only someone with well documented abilities, but someone who's well documented abilities make him uniquely impressive in the entire SW canon, and, on paper, give him a specific advantage over anybody in the particular department to which it relates, perhaps you guys' sarcasm is misplaced?

Hardly. What has Yoda done? Been called the greatest foe the Darkness ever knew? Stymied the most powerful Sith Lord in history in saber combat? Been credited by George Lucas has one of only two Jedi able to do so? Been the Grand Master of the Golden Age of the Jedi that consisted of the best saber duelists the order has ever produced and been at the top of them?

F*ck Yoda. Kas'im was called a master.

Except everything you've listed has:

A) Not been established to definitely be the case, as far as the canonicity and nature of the narration is concerned.

B) Has not been definitively explained as to what exactly it means.

C) Has not been substantiated with direct reference to the nature of this thread, being a lightsaber battle.

And Kas'im's got what? A personal endorsement by Lucas?

The fact that his mastery over the lightsaber has been documented to a height unimaginably greater than can be said for anybody else? Given how he also displays the ability to operate under the same realm of power as someone as powerful as a mid-PoT Darth Bane (who demonstrates incredible general ability, with his displays of lightning, telekinesis, speed, and in other areas up until that point in time), when he's able to at least not get overwhelmed by his Force assisted physical power, and defends against an attack the Sith Lord had spent time charging up, he beats Yoda in everything that isn't a strict Force battle.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Except everything you've listed has:

A) Not been established to definitely be the case, as far as the canonicity and nature of the narration is concerned.

B) Has not been definitively explained as to what exactly it means.

C) Has not been substantiated with direct reference to the nature of this thread, being a lightsaber battle.

You don't have to convince me, Kas'sim all the way. Obviously.

A: The ROTS novelization is HARDLY canon. More like a fanfic.

B: Exactly! Because the word "foe" can mean anything right before Yoda goes into combat and "goes forth to war!" It could most definitly mean that Yoda simply was the biggest OBSTACLE the sith had ever stood against! Yoda was always so good at figuring out what the Sith was doing, and was always politically stymieing Sidious at EVERY turn, afterall. It would be different if maybe Yoda had stood by and done nothing while Sidious grabbed all the political power in the galaxy.

After all, Kas'sim, fought BANE in a duel, and was winning. And we all know Bane is WAY stronger than Sidious was. Common sense.



I'm on your side: Yoda's a chump. Anybody who can stand up to Bane is going to wipe the floor with someone who can stand up to Sidious.

Bane used the force to create a Holocron after all.

Again, the sarcasm becomes less effective when you're actually saying what's true.

Either provide an argument that relates directly to the thread and involves the fully explained application of existing, credible evidence, or stop posting, otherwise I will have no choice but to report you for trolling.

There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .

After reading through the passage, I do believe that in all likelihood, the statement ("he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" is from the perspective of the omniscient narrator, and that the passage fits into the SW canon perfectly nicely.

What I would question, is what exactly it means, in context. Is the Darkness in reference to the Dark Side of the Force? A timeless force that can't be permanently defeated but simply stymied? A Force that represents everything there is that's bad in the universe? In the context of such a being, would the duration to which you would be in a position to contest against such a force not be pertinent? What Yoda represents is a very powerful Jedi Master that has been in a position to fight for the Light Side of the Force and against the Dark Side for centuries. To lead and inspire millions of Jedi over that same period of time. To build relations between the Jedi Order and the Republic and have a personal impact on general peace and prosperity in the wider Galaxy. What we have in Yoda, within the context of this being, is not only a highly effective foe, but a persistent one. I am personally of the opinion that it's likely that every relavent quality at hand here: his combat ability, his leadership, his life span, what he represents to the Jedi and the entire Galaxy etc., were factored into the statement in question, and at the very least, the fact remains that it cannot be definitively established that it's in absolute reference to his combat ability.

Originally posted by truejedi
u kno... i don't think i actually AM going to stop it... I think it'll be fun to rely on common sense and our imagination for awhile.

Let's IMAGINE what could happen, and then debate that. mhmm?

yeah.



gun_bandana

IDK Neb, it kinda seems like you're talking out of your ass here. Bear in mind the context, which is that he just realised that he can't defeat Sidious in a one on one duel. Also, all of whats mentioned: 'the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe' has combat connotations. Plus 'Devastatingly powerful' simply couldn't mean anything other than actual power imo.

Not that it matters, its from Yoda's perspective, so its a fallible opinion.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
otherwise I will have no choice but to report you for trolling.
You have got to be kidding. Ive been on your side all along, and any moderator will realize that.

oh... and....
Reported for socking.

The immediate context is that he realises that he couldn't defeat Sidious in something that is identified as not being the battle they were currently engaged in.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force.

You could say those words have combat connotations, though I feel they would be more appropriately described as adversarial connotations, and given that they are made with respect to a timeless enemy that cannot be destroyed but simply delayed and contested, then I think Yoda's lifespan, and his capacity to fight against such an enemy for such a long duration, becomes far more pertinent, then when you're dealing with the type of being that can be destroyed entirely in a moment.

Something can be devestating, fierce, or implaccable in a number of manners not related to combat.

Also, I don't think that it is coming from Yoda's PoV (which would actually help my case). What's from Yoda's PoV is that he "just-didn't-have it", and that alone imo. The descriptions are coming from the omniscient narrator as he describes Yoda arriving at that conclusion. It doesn't seem like those descriptions would logically flow with such chain of reasoning either.

The most likely truth is that, based off of those descriptions, Yoda's position among his entire life span to combat against the dark side was the greatest it had ever been for any given foe of the darkside.

Also, can you people stop calling me Neb. I gather he's someone that you all know but all I can tell you is that I am not him and that you'll have to take my word for it.

Also, as I understand it, the Dark Side of the Force essentially represents every bad trait that a living being can possess, right? From evil, hatred, anger to even such things as envy, cowardice, lazyness etc. Or am I wrong?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force.

Oh God. This just proves that its from Yoda's perspective. No omniscient perspective could be this stupid.

Gawddamn PT Yoda is lame.




Everything (that you posted at least) from after the truth line is Yoda's perspective. The narrator is merely extrapolating on his 'epithany'. Notice how at the end it's still talking about his direct thoughts, showing that the narrator is still concerned with giving the reader Yoda's perspective on the matter 'He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .



Yeah I think you are. The Force is an energy-field that binds life and perhaps even a sentient being in it's own right. The Darkside does not represent evil traits, it's just influenced by them, and maybe composed of them. The Darkside for example can exist independently from a person in say a Force nexus.

IDK, the Force is ****ing wierd at times. It doesn't help that every writer has his own ideas of what it is. I'm just sticking to Lucas' though- Its an energy field created by all life that binds all life together.

Originally posted by Nephthys
... Its an energy field created by all life that binds all life together.

That's so ****ing awesome!!

No it isn't. The energy field is created by medichlorians. And its like, illegal to like those things or something....

Nah man, that shit is still awesome!

Originally posted by truejedi
He was beating Bane. That's pretty obvious. I don't know what more you want. His technical skill is second to none, and Yoda is gonna get roooooolllled.

So he was winning but DIDN'T win.. nice... So he beat NOBDODY of note for all his acclaimed skill? I see, I thought we put more importance to actual feats than we do hyperbole around here? Lines stated someone is the best duelist without actual feats to back it up, are just that, lines stating something. He has NEVER beaten anybody of note, so all this acting like he's the best swordsman the Jedi have ever seen is simply laughable

Originally posted by NCRotCA
The fact that his mastery over the lightsaber has been documented to a height unimaginably greater than can be said for anybody else? Given how he also displays the ability to operate under the same realm of power as someone as powerful as a mid-PoT Darth Bane (who demonstrates incredible general ability, with his displays of lightning, telekinesis, speed, and in other areas up until that point in time), when he's able to at least not get overwhelmed by his Force assisted physical power, and defends against an attack the Sith Lord had spent time charging up, he beats Yoda in everything that isn't a strict Force battle.

When you're trying to make an argument for a character, you may try to keep it in the realm of reality so that people don't automatically ignore it. Saying that "his mastery over the lightsaber has been documented to a height unimaginably greater than can be said for anybody else" makes it seem that you don't even know other characters from Star Wars.

Is there anybody else that even approaches mastering all seven forms of the lightsaber that I don't know about?

Mastering ALL 7 forms doesn't necessarily make one better than another who masters a few forms or even a single form to a higher degree. Moreover, apart from pure technical skill, we have a Jedi's/Sith's lightsaber related force prowess coming into play here (Precog, Force-Speed, Agility, etc...).

"So he was winning but DIDN'T win.. nice..."

Actually he did win the lightsaber battle between the two of them, but got defeated by a Force attack after it had ended (through the effect it had on the environment). This by Darth Bane, a being who earlier on had destroyed the strongest student at the BoD's Academy on Korriban (the same group of students who were all declared Dark Lords of the Sith months later and were acknowledged by some of the Dark Lords as the most powerful Sith in the entire Order - the most martial Order of Sith Lords the Universe has ever seen) in a maneuvre described as being too fast for any of the surrounding Force Users to see, displayed an incredible learning rate with the lightsaber, learning something like hundreds of thousands of moves within the span of months, and displayed general excellence with the Force which is something that translates into Force assisted lightsaber ability. He was also a brute of a man, being described as a "mountain of muscle", and he had the advantage in that he knew the terrain inside out and was able to use it to his advantage during their duel. The point being, the guy he defeated was an absolute monster, with the greatest display of speed we've ever seen in the mythos, an uncanny natural talent with the lightsaber, and a generally very powerful individual, both physically and through the Force. I'd say it has Yoda's display against an out of practise Darth Sidious who was demonstratably not even that powerful by that point beaten quite easily.



Actually, he did. We also know he had defeated his master years before who was one of the most powerful Sith in the Order.



There are feats that back it up, and no, if those same lines are from the perspective of the omniscient narrator, then from within the context of the story, they are entirely factual. The statements in question aren't hyperbole just because you want them to be; that he mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber are not only stated, but that he was the sole lightsaber instructor in charge of the Academy would essentially require it. That he spent time continuously maintaining and improving his skills are not only stated, but in every chance we get to see Kas'im outside of performing the only duties he was tasked with (training the students, which in itself would be a continous application of his own ability) he's seen to be working on his skills. It also fits in with his character: his only concern was with becoming the greatest swordsman he could possibly be, and there wasn't anything else within the halls of the temple that would be able to hold his interest. So no, when the statement fits in with everything else to the point that it's reliant on being literally correct for everything else to stay in place, it's not hyperbole.



He has, firstly. Secondy, it wouldn't be required that he had for him to still be of value as a combatant

"Mastering ALL 7 forms doesn't necessarily make one better than another who masters a few forms or even a single form to a higher degree."

Not necessarily. But when that same person is someone who demonstrated a phenomenal learning rate in mastering all seven forms in the first place (given that it's stated he mastered all of them in a few years (and definitely under ten), when according to Cin Drallig the time it takes the average person to master a single form is no less then ten years - that's more than seven times the learning rate of the average person across that period for that purpose; you could even say that given the same amount of time as the average person, he'd be able to make more progress among all seven forms than that person would be able to make with their single form), spent an even longer amount of time maintaining and improving his skills with them (within the operations of his incredible learning rate), and then when you look at the extra advantages such complete mastery would provide in the form of providing you with moves and combinations that could be unfamiliar towards your opponent, and providing you with the familiarity with anything your opponent might be able to bring to the table, I don't see how, on paper, it can't be seen as anything but the most likely case.

You can also bring the principle of diminishing returns into this; that is, when you have one fixed factor, and one variable factor, eventually, a point will be reached where every single extra unit of the variable factor will see an even smaller return on the fixed factor. Well in this scenario, time is the variable factor, and the limitations of a saber form is the fixed factor. Kas'im, having a fixed factor that represent ~7 times the magnitude of the fixed factor of a single form master, will end up seeing diminishing returns much later than the single form master, and as such his time will be able to be spent far more efficiently. With masters of forms the likelihood is that these diminishing returns would already be coming into play, only with Kas'im, they would occur much later, and be far less sizable.

"Moreover, apart from pure technical skill, we have a Jedi's/Sith's lightsaber related force prowess coming into play here (Precog, Force-Speed, Agility, etc...)."

That is true, however even from this standpoint Kas'im showed the ability to at least meet the attacks of one of the most physically imposing and powerful lightsaber duelists we've ever come across, who also happened to possess the single greatest display of speed under his belt. Kas'im was also described as wielding his twin sabers as if he was carrying six, which also speaks quite positively for his speed. His endurance and reflexes are also made note of in the book at different times. All in all, I won't say his Force assisted lightsaber abilities are the best we've ever seen but they're at the very least very impressive, and along with his phenomenal mastery of the lightsaber, I don't see Yoda winning this.

To be honest Id rather Completely Master one form, than be "a master" of several forms. For example Obiwan was "The Master" of Soresu, so you can master however many forms you want, unless your really really good at a particular form your not gna get past Obi-Wans defences.

Hadnt Cin Drallig mastered 6 forms? He still went down to Anakin hard who'd completely mastered one form. Of course Power comes into play there as well, which is why people are gna support Yoda on this. He may not have mastered every form, but he was the Grand Master of his chosen form, and incredibly powerful. Possibly the second highest Force potential on record after Anakin (before Anakin had kids).

"To be honest Id rather Completely Master one form, than be "a master" of several forms. For example Obiwan was "The Master" of Soresu, so you can master however many forms you want, unless your really really good at a particular form your not gna get past Obi-Wans defences."

Well firstly, being a master alone is already indicative of incredibly high ability. I could perhaps be more willing to see things from the other point of view if I were dealing with someone who was simply proficient with every form versus a master of a form. A jack of all trades so to speak. Well in Kas'im, we have a master of all trades, someone who combines the benefits of specialisation in a single discipline with the versatility and completeness in dealing in every discipline. Beyond everyting I listed in the earlier posts, we can also take into consideration that most forms, while they have their strengths, are also faced with their weaknesses. By mastering every single form, Kas'im gets to use the strengths of each form without exposing their weaknesses. Alternative forms act as an answer to the weakness of a given form, and you could tailor your offence around utilising a form that best exploits the weakness of your opponent's form whilst tailoring your defence to utilising the form that best nullifies its strength.

With regards to Kenobi, while he sure demonstrates himself to be an impressive practitioner of Soresu, I don't know if we should go as far as to call him the absolute master of it. By RotS, he'd only been training with the form for about ten years, and when we consider the fact that he had originally utilised Ataru, as well as the fact that Padawans are usually assigned the form that their Master deems them to have the most potential with, it's quite possible that Obi-Wan's potential with Soresu, and his realised ability by RotS, wasn;t even all that high. Regardless, I'm sure if someone was simply strong enough or fast enough or were able to use something alien enough they'd be able to overwhelm Obi-Wan's defences even without being that incredibly good with a single form. Another extended benefit being able to utilise moves abd combinations that your opponent would have no familiarity with is that it has the effect of nullifying their precognition, the greater the effect to which it would do so beign contingent on how alien the moves and combinations are and how many of them.

"Hadnt Cin Drallig mastered 6 forms? He still went down to Anakin hard who'd completely mastered one form."

There are few facts we know about Cin Drallig at all, and that he mastered six forms isn't one of them.

"Of course Power comes into play there as well, which is why people are gna support Yoda on this."

Well Bane as an example has demonstrated far more power than somebody like Yoda, was at least well practised with a saber, and yet Kas'im quite easily had his number when he tapped into his full resources and fought at his best.

While power is an advantage it's not a determining one and I've yet to see anybody even establish that there's that big an advantage on Yoda's side, if an advantage at all.

"He may not have mastered every form, but he was the Grand Master of his chosen form,"

Of Ataru, or do you mean the Jedi Order?

"and incredibly powerful."

I don't think he was that powerful. Sidious becomes incredibly powerful. As do Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron, Bane and Darth Zannah. As are people like Nihilus the moment we first see them. Yoda, on the other hand, was relatively powerful but not overwhelmingly so like the others. The speed he moved at, and lifting senate pods are the king of great displays of Force Use the movies concern themselves with and while within that era is certainly seperated him from the crowd I feel that there are quite a fe individuals throughout the entire history of the Star Wars Galaxy that are vastly more powerful.

"Possibly the second highest Force potential on record after Anakin (before Anakin had kids)."

What do you mean by on record? The Jedi Order's records? Possibly but I don't see that much indicating it. If you mean out of everyone we know I'd think Sidious, Bane, Zannah, Exar Kun, and Kyp Durron at the very least were all gifted with far higher potentials.

I'm curious... What are you basing this notion than Bane is more powerful than Sid? You keep talking about Bane like it's established fact the he's more powerful.. So I'm looking for what you are basing this on. It's important because his fight with Bane is ALL you have in terms of Kas'im fighting somebody of significance. So, you seem to be building up Bane, in an effort to make Kas look better. Problem is, I feel Sid's is more powerful than Bane, and Yoda handles himself better than Kas did against Bane.

I'm not saying that Kas would shrivel up and die if faced with a combat situation. I'm not saying that in the least as he handled himself pretty good against Bane. What I am saying is narration about his skill based on how many forms he's mastered, how skilled he is with a saber, how good a teacher he is... can only go so far. We need to see him in actual combat (life or death) situation against quality opponents to give credence to said narration. Narration alone doesn't cut it. In Yoda we have both narration and combat feats against quality opposition. Such quality in fact, that one could argue he faced the most powerful force user ever, and was winning or at the least stalemated him. That to me, is a better victory than the hollow one Kas had against Bane (he did well but in the end lost).

Now I'm not saying Kss isn't skilled with the saber... the problem is he doesn't have enough combat feats or victories against quality that Yoda does. We judge fights based on feats and narration. Yoda is clearly the victor based on the debating parameters on this site.

Originally posted by NCRotCA

Well firstly, being a master alone is already indicative of incredibly high ability. I could perhaps be more willing to see things from the other point of view if I were dealing with someone who was simply proficient with every form versus a master of a form. A jack of all trades so to speak.

Well would it not be similar but on a higher level in this scenario. Kasim is a master of all forms(the jack of all trades), whilst Yoda had mastered his chosen form to the highest level.. So it really depends on on how high a level of Mastery Kasim possessed at the various forms. Was he a High Level Master of any form - proof?

It also seems to me from the AOTC novel that Yoda has a high level mastery of Soresu. Before he attack Dooku (using his Ataru obviously) he stands in one spot, defending agaisnt ALL of Dooku's lethal strikes. Dooku gets frustrated that he can not hit Yoda. That certainly wasnt Ataru, and to defend against all Dooku's strikes would suggest the High level Mastery. I know this hasnt been confirmed anywhere, but if you read that passage the style used could only have been soresu.

That would also explain why Yoda was considered the best swordsman of the PT era ("If you practised your saber skills as much as you did your wit you would rival master yoda as a swordsman" Kenobi AOTC).

Plus Lucas commented on Yoda's fight in AOTC that we will see why Yoda is called "THE Master"

Originally posted by NCRotCA
while they have their strengths, are also faced with their weaknesses. By mastering every single form, Kas'im gets to use the strengths of each form without exposing their weaknesses. Alternative forms act as an answer to the weakness of a given form, and you could tailor your offence around utilising a form that best exploits the weakness of your opponent's form whilst tailoring your defence to utilising the form that best nullifies its strength.

That would certainly give an advantage. But bear in mind Dooku knew all the weaknesses of Djem So and Ataru and yet still lost to both Anakin and Yoda.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
With regards to Kenobi, while he sure demonstrates himself to be an impressive practitioner of Soresu, I don't know if we should go as far as to call him the absolute master of it. By RotS, he'd only been training with the form for about ten years, and when we consider the fact that he had originally utilised Ataru, as well as the fact that Padawans are usually assigned the form that their Master deems them to have the most potential with, it's quite possible that Obi-Wan's potential with Soresu, and his realised ability by RotS, wasn;t even all that high.

He actually had 13 years from TPM to ROTS to master soresu. As you have already explained how quickly Kasim mastered all forms, it is not beyond reason that somebody talented could completely master a single form in 13 years.

As for the source, it was Mace Windu's opinion in ROTS novel that Kenobi was not only A Master, but THE Master of soresu. An opinion so strong, that he used that as the basis to have Obi-wan as the one to take down Greivous. Of course this would make Obi-wan the best soresu practioner of HIS OWN time period, not of all time.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Regardless, I'm sure if someone was simply strong enough or fast enough or were able to use something alien enough they'd be able to overwhelm Obi-Wan's defences even without being that incredibly good with a single form.

Possibly. But Anakin was as an incredibly competent user of Djem So, with s*** loads of raw power, he didnt seem able to breach Obi-wan's defence.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
and this is Bane we;re talking about, a being who's demonstrated greater Force assisted lightsaber abilities than any other, that far eclipse anything Yoda has demonstrated

Really? Like what? Please expound on your comment.

You speak as if I haven't already provided the evidence in this very thread; moving so fast that he was practically invisible to trained Force Users is the single greatest display of speed, and Force assisted lightsaber ability we've ever come across; before anybody tries to claim "hyperbole" not only is it stated but it has that very effect on the surrounding Force Users, when they're left puzzled as to exactly what happened afterwards.

Bane's pretty haxxed, but his best feats don't really compare to Nihilus (planet-buster, possible galaxy-wide telepath) or Luke (galaxy-wide telepath, planet affecting power). Palpatine also has an uber-feat with his Force-Storm but personally I don't think it eclipses the Force Storm Bane did (it would have wiped out the planet, alot bigger than the fleet Palps destroyed, cross-reference what Bane would have been putting into the ritual with size of destruction and I'd say their about the same /theory).

Interestingly though both Visas and Kreia also have pretty legit telepathy feats. Visas senses the Exile from across the galaxy, same as Nihilus and Kreia casually sends Atris a telepathic e-mail across it to. IDK though, I'd need some outsider perspective on thoses ones.

Bane is just a complete monster in personal combat. He's like Marek in that regard except with qauntifiably good saber feats and the Orbalisks. I wouldn't say he's got as much raw power as others, but he could match them in combat imo.

/CONTRAVERSY!

Originally posted by NCRotCA
You speak as if I haven't already provided the evidence in this very thread; moving so fast that he was practically invisible to trained Force Users is the single greatest display of speed, and Force assisted lightsaber ability we've ever come across; before anybody tries to claim "hyperbole" not only is it stated but it has that very effect on the surrounding Force Users, when they're left puzzled as to exactly what happened afterwards.

And Sids didn't? In his duel w/ Windu he and Mace were described as a being nothing but a blur. If Sids was moving this fast against Mace, why wouldn't he against Yoda?

Appearing as nothing from a blur from an unknown perspective =/= appearing practically invisible from the perspective of Force Users. Force Users are equipped with superhuman reaction speed, and appearing as a blur could range from a vast number of speed, the low end of which could be fairly visible.

Non-canon.

Also, I don't think the watchers being sith change anything about the feat. Reaction speed can't speed up your sight, which I think relies totally on light to create an image. This is why characters fighting at lightspeed wouldn't make sense, you wouldn't be able to see shit. o_o

A better feat is his 'dozen attacks an instant' or whatever.

"Well would it not be similar but on a higher level in this scenario. Kasim is a master of all forms(the jack of all trades), whilst Yoda had mastered his chosen form to the highest level.. So it really depends on on how high a level of Mastery Kasim possessed at the various forms. Was he a High Level Master of any form - proof?"

Well taking into account that it took him less then ten years to master all seven forms, and then he went on to spend at least twenty years improving upon them, I would think so. I'd imagine once you reach master level you're pretty far into the form's arsenal of moves and sequences; that Kas'im spent more than double the amount of time it took for him to originally master them on perfecting them, would lead me to think that it was pretty high end.

Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon. It's hard to imagine that his skills would be anything but rusty with such a lack of regular use. Comparatively, while Kas'im may have had to divide his time up between all seven forms, that he worked on each one every day and was at least in practise with each one of them, would suggest that his mastery over any single one would have been greater than Yoda's then current mastery of Ataru.

"It also seems to me from the AOTC novel that Yoda has a high level mastery of Soresu. Before he attack Dooku (using his Ataru obviously) he stands in one spot, defending agaisnt ALL of Dooku's lethal strikes. Dooku gets frustrated that he can not hit Yoda. That certainly wasnt Ataru, and to defend against all Dooku's strikes would suggest the High level Mastery. I know this hasnt been confirmed anywhere, but if you read that passage the style used could only have been soresu."

Well all styles have their own defencive moves and sequences and with enough speed and power you should be able to use the most conventional of moves to defend against someone else's attacks, and Yoda does seem like that kind of combatant, relying almost entirely on his Force ability in saber combat, i.e. his speed and agility.

"That would also explain why Yoda was considered the best swordsman of the PT era ("If you practised your saber skills as much as you did your wit you would rival master yoda as a swordsman" Kenobi AOTC)."

Which may fairly well be the case as far as his overall ability is concerned, but certainly not his technique (it's confirmed that Anoon Bondara was the greatest in that respect, at least early PT).

"Plus Lucas commented on Yoda's fight in AOTC that we will see why Yoda is called "THE Master""

I'd imagine this is again referring to his overall ability, rather than specifically his technique.

"That would certainly give an advantage. But bear in mind Dooku knew all the weaknesses of Djem So and Ataru and yet still lost to both Anakin and Yoda."

Well it's definitely not a determining factor or anything, but still a noteworth advantage. Though out of curiosity, did Dooku actually know every weakness of both forms or did he simply claim he did?

"He actually had 13 years from TPM to ROTS to master soresu. As you have already explained how quickly Kasim mastered all forms, it is not beyond reason that somebody talented could completely master a single form in 13 years.

As for the source, it was Mace Windu's opinion in ROTS novel that Kenobi was not only A Master, but THE Master of soresu. An opinion so strong, that he used that as the basis to have Obi-wan as the one to take down Greivous. Of course this would make Obi-wan the best soresu practioner of HIS OWN time period, not of all time."

True.

"Possibly. But Anakin was as an incredibly competent user of Djem So, with s*** loads of raw power, he didnt seem able to breach Obi-wan's defence."

I'd question how much of that raw power he had actually realised by that point, as well as how good a Djem So practitioner he was, and to be fair he did breach his defences with a fair few melee attacks during their duel, which Soresu is designed to defend against, though it could be questioned whetehr Obi-Wan was going all out.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Appearing as nothing from a blur from an unknown perspective =/= appearing practically invisible from the perspective of Force Users. Force Users are equipped with superhuman reaction speed, and appearing as a blur could range from a vast number of speed, the low end of which could be fairly visible.

From the perspective of the chosen one. Hardly an untrained eye.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Non-canon.

Also, I don't think the watchers being sith change anything about the feat. Reaction speed can't speed up your sight, which I think relies totally on light to create an image. This is why characters fighting at lightspeed wouldn't make sense, you wouldn't be able to see shit. o_o

A better feat is his 'dozen attacks an instant' or whatever.

It is canon. We've been over this already. And yes, Mace's lightsaber appearing to Anakin as if it were dozens of blades aatcking from every angle works well too.

That's subjective, and as such, holds little water.



Fallible opinion - from one of his students.

Except that in the movies, the highest form of canon, Anakin only got there after the fight was over. He had no chance to see Mace in action at all. Rendering the novelisation version non-canon.

I meant Bane's dozen attacks at once in ROT. O_O

"Non-canon."

Oh I didn't think he was referring to Anakin's observations, as they're described as moving as blurs by the ON before he arrives as well IIRC.

"Also, I don't think the watchers being sith change anything about the feat. Reaction speed can't speed up your sight, which I think relies totally on light to create an image. This is why characters fighting at lightspeed wouldn't make sense, you wouldn't be able to see shit. o_o

A better feat is his 'dozen attacks an instant' or whatever."

The image itself is reliant totally on light but the movement of the image becomes reliant on how your mind process time, i.e. your reaction speed, and how close it is to your visual field. The faster your reaction speed, the more easily your brain registers the rate at which the object crosses your visual field, so for the average human for example anything that takes less than about 5 seconds to cross your visual field starts to blur. The very reason people recognise blurs in different manners is because of differentiating reaction speeds.

And the second thing happens in RoT anyway...

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
From the perspective of the chosen one. Hardly an untrained eye.

Well in that case refer to Nephtys...

Hmmm, I'd need to hear a science buffs opinion on this before I make a conclusion.

Can a smartipants like Zampano, Borborad, Gideon-reborn etc come and explain this to me?

In reference to the top post of this page, there's nothing subjective about it Takai, and it was stated by the omniscient narrator in both Shadow Hunter and The Approaching Storm, the quote from Darsha Assant was from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

Well I could be quite wrong so perhaps we should get someone else's opinion... from what I remember it's correct.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
In reference to the top post of this page, there's nothing subjective about it Takai, and it was stated by the omniscient narrator in both Shadow Hunter and The Approaching Storm, the quote from Darsha Assant was from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

Really? That Yoda's skills w/ Ataru were were "pretty low" by RotS? Give me the direct quote.

Though in the Jedi Apprentice series when Obi-Wan's a youngling the enhancement of your senses was a pretty basic ability IIRC.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Really? That Yoda's skills w/ Ataru were were "pretty low" by RotS? Give me the direct quote.

I said that it's likely given how out of practise with the weapon he was, that he was out of practise having already been sourced and it being likely founded upon probability and not opinion. A lack of regular practise of something that's heavily founded upon technique almost always leads to a lack of familairity with it, so the strong likelihood is that the same is the case with Yoda, unless his memory operates more effectively than the basic human memory which nothing suggests as being the case.

"I'm curious... What are you basing this notion than Bane is more powerful than Sid? You keep talking about Bane like it's established fact the he's more powerful.. So I'm looking for what you are basing this on. It's important because his fight with Bane is ALL you have in terms of Kas'im fighting somebody of significance. So, you seem to be building up Bane, in an effort to make Kas look better. Problem is, I feel Sid's is more powerful than Bane, and Yoda handles himself better than Kas did against Bane."

Well the fact remains that in the movies all that Yoda and Sidious are ever able to demonstrate are basic abilities like telekinesis and lightning on a relatively low scale, at times displaying real effort in doing so. The stuff they do outside of the movies around the same time period that aren't consistent with that showing of ability can for the most part be ignored as by their very nature, the further away you get from the movies, the more foggier the window into the fictional reality becomes, and anything that conflicts with what the movies depict can be considered to not be a true reflection of what actually takes place.

Bane on the other hand collapses a temple with the outer areas of a telekinetic Force Wave, fills a hall capable of housing hundreds of students with Force Lightning within an hour of having learnt the ability, and moves so fast that he becomes practically invisible to trained, powerful Force Users. A good notch beyond PT Yoda and Sid by any standard, and Kas'im performs exceptionally well against him.

"I'm not saying that Kas would shrivel up and die if faced with a combat situation. I'm not saying that in the least as he handled himself pretty good against Bane. What I am saying is narration about his skill based on how many forms he's mastered, how skilled he is with a saber, how good a teacher he is... can only go so far."

Sure, but in this case it goes pretty far.

"We need to see him in actual combat (life or death) situation against quality opponents to give credence to said narration. Narration alone doesn't cut it. In Yoda we have both narration and combat feats against quality opposition. Such quality in fact, that one could argue he faced the most powerful force user ever, and was winning or at the least stalemated him. That to me, is a better victory than the hollow one Kas had against Bane (he did well but in the end lost)."

Well look, perhaps if Sidious really was the most powerful Force User ever up until that point, I'd be more willing to agree with you but the fact remains that the combatants displayed in the movies don't come close to the upper end of Force Users that have appeared throughout its history.

"Now I'm not saying Kss isn't skilled with the saber... the problem is he doesn't have enough combat feats or victories against quality that Yoda does. We judge fights based on feats and narration. Yoda is clearly the victor based on the debating parameters on this site."

The only thing we lack about Kas'im is the quantity of feats (he was a supporting character in a single novel after all), something that really isn't needed, as he has the quality of narration and feats that easily place him as the victor in this engagement.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I said that it's likely given how out of practise with the weapon he was, that he was out of practise having already been sourced and it being likely founded upon probability and not opinion. A lack of regular practise of something that's heavily founded upon technique almost always leads to a lack of familairity with it, so the strong likelihood is that the same is the case with Yoda, unless his memory operates more effectively than the basic human memory which nothing suggests as being the case.

Sorry, but this - "Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon" -is subjective, not objective, and as such, is opinion.

Neb, why aren't you using the Quote function?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well taking into account that it took him less then ten years to master all seven forms, and then he went on to spend at least twenty years improving upon them, I would think so. I'd imagine once you reach master level you're pretty far into the form's arsenal of moves and sequences; that Kas'im spent more than double the amount of time it took for him to originally master them on perfecting them, would lead me to think that it was pretty high end.

I have to admit thats quite impressive.


Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well all styles have their own defencive moves and sequences and with enough speed and power you should be able to use the most conventional of moves to defend against someone else's attacks, and Yoda does seem like that kind of combatant, relying almost entirely on his Force ability in saber combat, i.e. his speed and agility.

Ah but it was the way he was defending.. He stood in one position, and kept perfectly balanced. I really dnt see how that could be anything but soresu. Certainly doesnt sound like an Ataru defence(standing in the same spot). And I doubt Ataru's defence without any attacks would be that effective against Makashi.


Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'd question how much of that raw power he had actually realised by that point, as well as how good a Djem So practitioner he was,

Well when giving into the darkside he badly and completely overpowered Count Dooku who was said to be One of the Most Powerful Jedi's in the whole history of the order, and an even More Powerful Sith Lord.

As for his Djem So, he was as fine a user as Dooku had ever seen. Considering Dooku was a former lightsaber instructor at the Temple, I think that says a lot. And considering Anakin matched Kenobi in duelling skill, that also says a lot. But thats for another debate really.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Sorry, but this - "Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon" -is subjective, not objective, and as such, is opinion.

Also, Sidious not touching his lightsaber for a loooong time didn't slow him down.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Neb, why aren't you using the Quote function?

It's damn annoying. It's a pain to read posts that way.

Hey as for this "other jedis seeing them as a blur thing" yes it shows they're moving fast, but you guys do realise that a jedi doesnt have to see his opponent to fight him?? Just as long as he can feel him in the force.

*Assumes by 'Neb' you are referring to me*

Whoops, my bad, I do know how to use it, it's just a bit more tedious to continuously type it out rather than just put " around everything.

That's almost clever: pretending to not know how to use it to throw off suspicion for a while longer. (Almost) Cleveeerr...

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Sorry, but this - "Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon" -is subjective, not objective, and as such, is opinion.

Since when is probability a subjective process? I'm not going to claim that I applied the most elaborate statistical model to determine its probability, but probability down to its most exact process is very much an objective process. In this instant it's not really required to know that the most likely scenario is that someone who doesn't regularly practise their skills will lack familiarity with them, simply due to how memory works, and the fact that Yoda's not portrayed in a manner that would indicate his memory works in a fundamentally different way (neither are Force Users as a whole or any other member of Yoda's species).

He didn't pretend to not know how to use it...

Well I had used it before you even brung it up...

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Also, Sidious not touching his lightsaber for a loooong time didn't slow him down.

Slow him down, perhaps not, but it did in all likelihood see a decline in his technical ability.

But seriously I'm not Neb can I ask why you guys think that I am him?

Becuase you obviously are.

Also, if you're not him, how did you know he was a boy?

but why though?

lol. I dont know actually. I guess the natural assumption is that any unnamed person is a boy, and the name sort of gives off that vybe.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
but why though?

Same arguments, same knowledge of the mythos, same bias towards certain characters, same tone of your posts, same personal interests (Xenogears etc) and... same penchant for really bizarre names.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah but it was the way he was defending.. He stood in one position, and kept perfectly balanced. I really dnt see how that could be anything but soresu. Certainly doesnt sound like an Ataru defence(standing in the same spot). And I doubt Ataru's defence without any attacks would be that effective against Makashi.

Well it's possible I guess lol. Never really thought about it tbh, probably check out the passage at some point.

hmm could i see some of his posts? Also it's quite funny that he also likes xenogears lol. It is a pretty awesome game, but quite obscure.

It's not that rare for someone to know a lot about the mythos btw, might seem that way here but I also post on the main forums and TFN and most of the people there at least know at least as much as I do.

Well I'm sure you'd find lots of people who share those few games as itnerests. Looking at his list he seems to be mroe of an RPG fan whereas I'm more of a Visual Novel/H Game guy (I actually came across every single one of those games from visual novels/adventure games), though there are certain story driven games outside the Adventure genre that I do like.

And I wouldn't ever put something like Chrono trigger onto my top 30 list... first RPG I ever played and I was not a fan. I only played it because I knew it was a prequel to radical dreamers, but luckily I played Chrono cross otherwise I wouldn't have thought of moving onto the other Square RPGs like Xenogears, FF, Vagrant Story etc.

Alright, I'll believe that you're not him if you agree with me that JRPG's suck balls and can go eat a dick. awepedo

You'll also have to admit that Bioware makes some of the best RPG's ever and that WRPG's don't suck by default.

Well I can agree that Dragon Quest, which is pretty much the JRPG, sucks major balls. Its kind of ironic in a way that the director of one of my favorite Adventure games in Yuji Horii is more famed for his creation of Dragon Quest and Chrono Trigger, and I hated both of them, but then really liked Chrono Trigger's two sequels when yuji Hori wasn't even involved in them. Anyways....

Bioware's RPGs are ok though after you play a few good visual novels you see how primitive the choice making really is. Where you have at most a few paths you can go on in games like KotOR in visual novels they generally number in the tens. I have yet to actually complete most of them actually as they end up taking so long.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Since when is probability a subjective process? I'm not going to claim that I applied the most elaborate statistical model to determine its probability, but probability down to its most exact process is very much an objective process. In this instant it's not really required to know that the most likely scenario is that someone who doesn't regularly practise their skills will lack familiarity with them, simply due to how memory works, and the fact that Yoda's not portrayed in a manner that would indicate his memory works in a fundamentally different way (neither are Force Users as a whole or any other member of Yoda's species).

Once again this - "Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon" - is speculation and is subjective. It's an opinion (yours) and carries no weight behind it, except in your own mind.

But his mind is RIGHT. And is therefore objective.

To say tha Yoda's profeciency has to be "pretty low" is an OPINION - nothing more. It's his OPINION. See? Opinions DO NOT = objectivity, they DO = subjectivity.

Kas'sim cannot be touched by Yoda. Yoda is a like a toy in the hands of the Ancient Sith.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
To say tha Yoda's profeciency has to be "pretty low" is an OPINION - nothing more. It's his OPINION. See? Opinions DO NOT = objectivity, they DO = subjectivity. I don't think you understand what kind of feat Kas'im has going for him. He was a master of all 7 forms. That's FTW! right there. Now I know that some naysayers will point out that Yoda was also a master of all 7 forms, and so was Mace, and Cin Drallig, and a bunches of other throughout Star Wars... but--BUT!... did any of them get killed by Bane?


I didn't think so.

Kas'sim was the best. Its indisputable. He taught all of the Sith students on Korriban everything they knew. Bane refers to all of those students as "weak" several times, simply because of how bad they were in relation to Kas'sim.


Don't forget, Kas'sim was the SINGLE GREATEST swordsman in the Army of Darkness!!! That Army was very powerful and accomplished lots of feats and accolades to be specific. If Kas'sim was the best the Army had, he clearly has more skill than any old Yoda.

God, I f*cking hate Yoda! Always raining on everyone's parade with his stupid face and backwards f*cking language. Little shit can't hold a candle to Kas'im the Magnificent, let alone a lightsaber.




On a similar note, I propose that Kas'im be referred to by his proper, and hard earned title, the Magnificent.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Slow him down, perhaps not, but it did in all likelihood see a decline in his technical ability.

There is no proof Sidious would be even more able if he had trained during those years. It's not like he would've been able to beat Mace if he did practise regularly.

Kas'sim the Magnificent is faster than a blur. Therefore Sidious, being merely a blur, pales in comparison. (as does therefore Yoda, making it pertinent to this thread.)

Originally posted by truejedi
Kas'sim the Magnificent is faster than a blur. Therefore Sidious, being merely a blur, pales in comparison. (as does therefore Yoda, making it pertinent to this thread.)

What the hell are you talking about, Sidious has more facts supporting his clear superiority over Kas'im and Yoda has quo... oooooh, I see what you did there.





Btw, you misspelled Kas'im his name. Absolute and utter blasphemy.

You guys have been reported.

"Now I know that some naysayers will point out that Yoda was also a master of all 7 forms, and so was Mace, and Cin Drallig, and a bunches of other throughout Star Wars..."

Complete and utter falsehood.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
You guys have been reported.

"Now I know that some naysayers will point out that Yoda was also a master of all 7 forms, and so was Mace, and Cin Drallig, and a bunches of other throughout Star Wars..."

Complete and utter falsehood.

You have also been reported. And justly, considering we are on the same side.

Takai, would you say that saying "a 6 sided die would almost certainly not land on 6 six times in a row" is a subjective opinion, out of curiosity?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Takai, would you say that saying "a 6 sided die would almost certainly not land on 6 six times in a row" is a subjective opinion, out of curiosity?

That has nothing to do with an opinionated statement where you say that Yoda's proficiency has to be "pretty low" by RotS. See the difference? If not, then I don't know what else to say. See you keep wanting to throw around probability, but really, there's no way for you to calculate how far, if any, Yoda's proficiency has declined. Therefore, it is a subjective statement. There is NOTHING AT ALL objective about it. You see, objective statements are based on FACT, and as such can be measured against a set of facts, whereas you have no FACTS to back up your claim that Yoda's proficiency is Ataru "pretty low". See how that works?

Especially considering it is fiction. Considering the abnormal happens repeatedly in fiction, there is nothing wrong with wanting proof of someone's opinion.

Someone who has the opinion that: "Yoda continued to improve with a lightsaber right up until his duel with Sidious, so he was at the peak of his powers in that duel." would have just as much right to that opinion as yours. Without that proof either way, there is no way to debate it to a conclusion.

Well what I was actually saying was that the strong likelihood is that Yoda's skills would have declined due to his lack of regular practise by RotS. Not that I'm claiming to have done this, but to actually truly work out the probability of such a scenario, formulaic data collection and probability models would be devised and a value would be calculated. That is how probability works. It's an entirely objective process, there isn't any room for personal opinion. Now again, I didn't exactly do that, namely because I'm nowhere near as well learned in statistics as I would need to be, but also because it's not nesseccary. It's a commonly known fact that in most cases, anybody who trains at something heavily founded on technique, but stops practising regularly with it, will lose familiarity with it, simply due to how the memory works. That we're dealing with a fictional world with such things as alien species and such as thing as The Force does adjust the probability with respect to our real world, but given that the character and his species involved aren't portrayed to function any different and the fact that the species, or the general level of technology and what we know about the Force, do not document anything that would amplify a being's memory capabilities, the likelihood remains that his skills would have declined drastically due to how limited his practise with the weapon was.

But the fact remains that it is not a subjective opinion. What about this Takai: "the average Jedi Master would in all likelihood defeat the average Jedi Youngling in a combat scenario" - subjective or objective?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well what I was actually saying was that the strong likelihood is that Yoda's skills would have declined due to his lack of regular practise by RotS. Not that I'm claiming to have done this, but to actually truly work out the probability of such a scenario, formulaic data collection and probability models would be devised and a value would be calculated. That is how probability works. It's an entirely objective process, there isn't any room for personal opinion. Now again, I didn't exactly do that, namely because I'm nowhere near as well learned in statistics as I would need to be, but also because it's not nesseccary. It's a commonly known fact that in most cases, anybody who trains at something heavily founded on technique, but stops practising regularly with it, will lose familiarity with it, simply due to how the memory works. That we're dealing with a fictional world with such things as alien species and such as thing as The Force does adjust the probability with respect to our real world, but given that the character and his species involved aren't portrayed to function any different and the fact that the species, or the general level of technology and what we know about the Force, do not document anything that would amplify a being's memory capabilities, the likelihood remains that his skills would have declined drastically due to how limited his practise with the weapon was.


It's not likely that his skills have declined drastically. The general assumption is that Yoda is at his peak during RotS, not a time before that. I don't see Yoda beating Sidious when he had just finished his lightsaber training.



How many humans do you know that have reached over 800 years of age? Even so, not every human just loses his skills drastically due to limited practise.

"The general assumption is that Yoda is at his peak during RotS, not a time before that."

In the Force, perhaps. I see no reason to assume that the same applies with his lightsaber ability, especially given that we know he was largely out of practise with the weapon.

"How many humans do you know that have reached over 800 years of age? Even so, not every human just loses his skills drastically due to limited practise."

I meant in a manner that relates to his memory. And it'd be rare for a human not to.

I take back those reports btw; after having to interact with Peach in the video game forum I don't personally feel like having to directly involve myself with any of them.

Originally posted by NCRotCA


What makes you say he was out of practise?

Well in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook (under his character section) it said that nobody in the temple had ever seen him hold a lightsaber indicating that he didn't spar with any of the other Jedi, at least at the time that the statement was in reference to (though the databank does credit him with a victory over Mace Windu, so if we accept it as a canon statement we have to assume that they may have sparred afterwards).

In Jedi: Mace Windu, during the Clone Wars has began, a Jedi asks him if he wished to spar and Yoda responds by saying his practise with Dooku was sufficient, in reference to a battle that occured months earlier, indicating that even in the war, up to that point in time, he still didn't spar with the other Jedi.

In Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, within the first chapter, it's stated that as Grandmaster of the Order, he rarely left the Temple, and we know that when he did participate in the war, it was largely as a Jedi General and not directly in the combat, where even when it was, he would have also had access to his Force Powers, and would have been using his lightsaber against enemies that function compeltely differently to opponent swordsmen.

Essentially, his experience against swordsmen type opponent was in all likelihood limited to his duels with Dooku during the war, and a very limited number of sparring matches against the other Jedi, and his general war experience, which wouldn't have call upon practise with the weapon against sword wielding enemies, would have been very limited, both in comparison to the other Jedi as well as in comparison to the time he spent in the temple or as a general.

Ultimately I'm lead to believe that his technique by RotS wouldn't have been great, especially next to Kas'im's phenomenal ability, and I don't even know if I'd say he was that powerful either. Throwing debris around and moving at flashy speeds is good by a certain standard and clearly what the films are trying to show you were exceptional at the time, but I think even there Kas'im outperforms him in his defence against Bane's Force Wave and ability to keep up with him in combat.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
In Jedi: Mace Windu, during the Clone Wars has began, a Jedi asks him if he wished to spar and Yoda responds by saying his practise with Dooku was sufficient, in reference to a battle that occured months earlier, indicating that even in the war, up to that point in time, he still didn't spar with the other Jedi.

That was in Schism approx somwhere between a month and ten weeks after AOTC. It was Mace Windu who asked Yoda if he wanted to spar.

Yoda's response suggested to me that he didnt NEED any practise. If his saber skills were degrading when theyre in the middle of a war, and they know Sith Lords are back and Yoda is the most powerful jedi to take on a Sith Lord, then surely Yoda would have felt there was a need for him to practise more.

Clearly he felt after his fight with Dooku that he was still on form with his saber skills.


Originally posted by NCRotCA
and I don't even know if I'd say he was that powerful either. Throwing debris around and moving at flashy speeds is good by a certain standard and clearly what the films are trying to show you were exceptional at the time, but I think even there Kas'im outperforms him in his defence against Bane's Force Wave and ability to keep up with him in combat.

We know he had the highest potential of all jedis at the time bar anakin (form obi-wans statement in TPM when checking Anakin's blood count).

And we know he had the highest mastery of the force of all the jedis of that time period at least. In fact who would have a higher mastery of the force than the 800 year old grand master of the order whose taught jedis for centuries??

Do you think Bane or Kasim would have a greater mastery of the force?? Is it likely either of them would have more force potential than Yoda??

The only reason I could possibly think that Yoda wasnt as powerful as he could be is that he was old.. Going to die in another 22 years. Not long when youve lived 800.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was in Schism approx somwhere between a month and ten weeks after AOTC. It was Mace Windu who asked Yoda if he wanted to spar.

Yoda's response suggested to me that he didnt NEED any practise. If his saber skills were degrading when theyre in the middle of a war, and they know Sith Lords are back and Yoda is the most powerful jedi to take on a Sith Lord, then surely Yoda would have felt there was a need for him to practise more.

Clearly he felt after his fight with Dooku that he was still on form with his saber skills.

I think it's far more likely that he simply felt that he didn't need to be skilled with a lightsaber simply because he was so much faster and more agile than everyone, maybe to him, he could conceivably face. I still think what we know about what happens when you stop practising regularly outweighs whatever reason he might have felt he didn;t need it.



I'm not so sure tbh. I think Obi-Wan was in a position to know that the count was off the charts, was understandably perplexed, and as a point of emphasis listed someone who at the time he most associated with power over the Force as someone who not even had that much strength in the Force, rather then being necessarily immediately aware of Yoda's midi-chlorian count and identifying that as the greatest at the time among the other Jedi in saying it.



The likelihood is that he did given his age, though there is learning rate and again level of practise to consider. A person could have a certain capacity of mastery over the Force that Yoda may have reached many years ago.



Bane was a natural who had already displayed the ability to learn at a ridiculous rate and master abilities within moments after first learning them. He was also extremely dedicated and spent every waking moment improving himself. it's possible that his mastery eclipsed Yoda's. Kas'im - unlikely, given his focus was on lightsaber combat, and he can;t be said to have been extraordinarily gifted or anything in the department.



Kas'im? Maybe not.

Bane? Almost certainly. He progresses at a ridiculous rate and is already more powerful than Yoda by the point in time he faces Kas'im which is after a mere year or so of training, by virtue of his feats, at least (creating a storm of lightning that filled a hall capable of housing hundreds, collapsing a temple with a portion of his TK attack, moving faster than the eyes of trained Force Users could see etc.). He later grows to ridiculous heights, to the point where he's capable of chanelling Force lightning that's powerful enough to destory the entire planet of Ruusan. There's almost no question in my mind that Bane's potential easily eclipsed Yoda's.



That's also possible... either way Kas'im's Force assisted lightsaber abilities have impressed me more than Yoda's, regardless of the reason.

Probability, when applied correctly, is mind-independent.

Hypothetical (and a simplistic) example:

Out of 1000 undefined masters of different martial arts who stop training for an entire year, 999 of them are no longer familiar with their art.

This is the only data available.

Thus, the probability that a random individual, who having once been a master of a martial art, and then stops practising in it for an entire year, will no longer be familiar with it is 0.999 or 99.9%

That is an objective, mind-independant application of probability - the only correct way it can be applied.

Obviously it's a more simple example, but the same's the case here. If anything I may be wrong. Objectively wrong. But I am not listing a subjective opinion. I am either objectviely wrong or right.

Originally posted by NCRotCA


Out of 1000 undefined masters of different martial arts who stop training for an entire year, 999 of them are no longer familiar with their art.

This is the only data available.

Thus, the probability that a random individual, who having once been a master of a martial art, and then stops practising in it for an entire year, will no longer be familiar with it is 0.999 or 99.9%



FINALLY you get it!! Well sort of. The word familiar kind of messes things up a little. But you're on the right path. See, in that last statement, you gave specifics, and nothing more - thereby making it an objective statement. See how that works. Now, in your prior statements, you DIDN'T base EVERYTHING on data. As amatter of fact, I don't remember a single shred of data. Even so, once you interject an opinion, the statement becomes subjective.

OK, but what I'm saying is that I don't feel as if I have to apply it that precisely to know that the likelihood is that Yoda wasn't very familiar with the form at the time of RotS, because of his lack of practise with the weapon.

Wait, don't get me wrong, I'm still for Kas'sim the magnificent all the way, because he was an ancient Sith, and OMFG he blocked a wave from BANE!!!

But NCRotCa, are you seriously trying to base an argument for Kas'sim the Magnificent (KTM for short) on your own opinion of what Yoda's lightsaber abilities were like?

Why should any of us waste time with that? Yoda just got done fighting a 10 year WAR at the end of ROTS. He was in practice as any Jedi in millenia.

In the first Bane book, Kas'sim the Magnificent himself admits that he can never be as good as someone who is more powerful in the force (the example he gives is Bane). The force connection makes a lightsaber fighter more powerful.

Now i'm not saying Yoda is more powerful in the force than Kas'sim the Magnificent. Yoda only has smashed landing craft together, overpowered Sidious's lightning, and crashed two ships in flight into each other with a wave of his... (hands?)

kas'sim the magnificent, unfortunately stated that he wasn't as strong in the force as Bane the Ultimate. Now i'm not saying that Yoda is more powerful than Bane the Ultimate, because I'm not, but Yoda has stalemated the most powerful sith lord of all time, and Bane the Ultimate merely started an order that was supposed to improve with every generation...

So, if for some ridiculous reason, some idiot said that Kassim the Magnificent was weaker in the force than yoda, that same idiot would be able to point to the quote from Rise of Darkness and say "hey, this means Kas'sim the magnificent is not able to match Yoda with sabers, from Kas'sim the magnificent's own mouth!"

Originally posted by NCRotCA
In the Force, perhaps. I see no reason to assume that the same applies with his lightsaber ability, especially given that we know he was largely out of practise with the weapon.

You do know that duelling with a lightsaber is highly dependent on the Force right?



What makes you think that a different species has the same memory as a human? Especially one that has so many characteristics different from humans.

The Force also plays a large part in why you can't put humans on the same page as Yoda. Using the Force is based quite a lot on instinct, certain skills of a Force user are natural, they don't need practise to be skilled at something. Little Anakin wasn't relying on his years of practise to win the Pod Race and Yoda in particular was second to only Anakin in... *cringes* midichlorian count.

Originally posted by truejedi
Wait, don't get me wrong, I'm still for Kas'sim the magnificent all the way, because he was an ancient Sith, and OMFG he blocked a wave from BANE!!!

But NCRotCa, are you seriously trying to base an argument for Kas'sim the Magnificent (KTM for short) on your own opinion of what Yoda's lightsaber abilities were like?

Why should any of us waste time with that? Yoda just got done fighting a 10 year WAR at the end of ROTS. He was in practice as any Jedi in millenia.

In the first Bane book, Kas'sim the Magnificent himself admits that he can never be as good as someone who is more powerful in the force (the example he gives is Bane). The force connection makes a lightsaber fighter more powerful.

Now i'm not saying Yoda is more powerful in the force than Kas'sim the Magnificent. Yoda only has smashed landing craft together, overpowered Sidious's lightning, and crashed two ships in flight into each other with a wave of his... (hands?)

kas'sim the magnificent, unfortunately stated that he wasn't as strong in the force as Bane the Ultimate. Now i'm not saying that Yoda is more powerful than Bane the Ultimate, because I'm not, but Yoda has stalemated the most powerful sith lord of all time, and Bane the Ultimate merely started an order that was supposed to improve with every generation...

So, if for some ridiculous reason, some idiot said that Kassim the Magnificent was weaker in the force than yoda, that same idiot would be able to point to the quote from Rise of Darkness and say "hey, this means Kas'sim the magnificent is not able to match Yoda with sabers, from Kas'sim the magnificent's own mouth!"

FYI:

In Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, within the first chapter, it's stated that as Grandmaster of the Order, he rarely left the Temple, and we know that when he did participate in the war, it was largely as a Jedi General and not directly in the combat, where even when it was, he would have also had access to his Force Powers, and would have been using his lightsaber against enemies that function compeltely differently to opponent swordsmen.

and

Well the fact remains that in the movies all that Yoda and Sidious are ever able to demonstrate are basic abilities like telekinesis and lightning on a relatively low scale, at times displaying real effort in doing so. The stuff they do outside of the movies around the same time period that aren't consistent with that showing of ability can for the most part be ignored as by their very nature, the further away you get from the movies, the more foggier the window into the fictional reality becomes, and anything that conflicts with what the movies depict can be considered to not be a true reflection of what actually takes place.

Also, that's not true, Kas'im outright states that a superior swordsman can defeat a superior Force User in a lightsaber battle; he states the the Force it the real key to victory in a confrontation but that it isn't so simple when you have to factor in differences in lightsaber ability.

And why you've taken what Bane was saying about the Sith growing stronger with each generation as being directly related to combat ability, I'll never know. The RoT defined strength, not as personal combatative power, but as the ability to plan, and put a plan into action using cunning.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You do know that duelling with a lightsaber is highly dependent on the Force right?

Yes, which is why I've taken it into consideration (I still maintain that the Force ability Yoda demonstrates in the movies (which includes demonstrated limitations) does little to put him on the same level, let alone a higher one, as Kas'im). However I'm taking every single factor into consideration, and as far as technique is concerned, by all available evidence, Yoda isn;t even in the same universe as Kas'im. It's not close.



Well memory has a pretty big impact on how you think and reason, and Yoda isn't demonstrated to act in such a manner any differently from a regular movie (ignoring his backward way of talking which is more of a language barrier).



Which is why I probably wouldn't make as big a deal out of it if we were talking about a Force ability. But technique is far more technical than instinctive, and the likelihood is that you'd need to regularly practise to maintain a high proficiency with the skill.

Yoda's lightsaber skills are wierd. I agree with you that it logically seems like his skills would have atrophied, and yet he apparantly (according to the ROTS script) disarmed Sidious. The same Sidious who Mace Pretty Much The Best Duelist In The Mythos Windu was unable to defeat in a straight up duel, having to rely on his shatterpoint ability to win.

I still think that would have been down more to superior Force assisted lightsaber abilities, both on Sidious's part with respect to Mace Windu, and Yoda's part with respect to Sidious, rather than a neccessarily certain level of technical ability.

Also not that I think that Yoda wasn't displaying superiority over Sidious in their lightsaber battle, but how canon is the stuff within the script that doesn't appear in the movie anyway? As the script is simply a tool for the production of the film, and not an outward representation of the story intended to be read by fans in itself, I think it can be discarded for the most part.

And I definitely can't say I feel as strongly about Mace Windu. While his mastery of Form 7 is great (given that it relies on high end mastery of multiple other forms), Kas'im's mastery of all forms and considerable time placed on improving his skills with each one following his masteyr of them places him a a few leagues higher than Windu, ial.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Yes, which is why I've taken it into consideration (I still maintain that the Force ability Yoda demonstrates in the movies (which includes demonstrated limitations) does little to put him on the same level, let alone a higher one, as Kas'im).

Yoda was the most powerful of all Jedi in all 6 movies... You may disregard the quotes saying so, but that doesn't mean they're not Canon. The universe in which Kas'im is portrayed is different than the movies in case you didn't know. You should look more at the context, compare Vaders greatest feat in the movies to everything else he does outside the movie universe. If Kas'im would have been in the movies, I'm sure he would've barely been able to lift an x-wing.



Technique didn't help Dooku a lot against Yoda. I'm sure Dooku's technique is more advance than Yoda's. But he still can't beat Yoda.



If you really want to compare Yoda to a regular human, then I can say for sure that he has demonstrated intelligence and wisdom above that of an average human. If you question his thinking and reasoning skills then you totally misunderstand the character.



I'll use the example of Dooku again, who got owned by Anakin while Dooku is by far the most technically skilled. He still got disarmed by Anakin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda's lightsaber skills are wierd. I agree with you that it logically seems like his skills would have atrophied, and yet he apparantly (according to the ROTS script) disarmed Sidious. The same Sidious who Mace Pretty Much The Best Duelist In The Mythos Windu was unable to defeat in a straight up duel, having to rely on his shatterpoint ability to win.

Why is it logical that his skills have atrophied? Wouldn't it be logical that Sidious' skills have atrophied as well?

Also:

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective." - From Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

His skills with a lightsaber had been called second to none on the Council in Shadow Hunter.


Why would some say that Yoda is the Order's true master of lightsaber combat when he has never seen with a lightsaber in the temple?