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A buddy of mine was looking for a meaning behind a dream I considered to be just another crazy dream. He said I was ignoring an obvious message about the worlds end. I don't think dreams have deep meanings that we should spend a lot of valuable time deciphering. But I only have my many crazy dreams to go off of. What do you think? Are dreams ever messages? Aren't end of the world dreams as common as end of the world movies?

Is a dream a lie if it don't come true or is it something worse? If dreams are like movies, then memories are films about ghosts.

there are lots of theories about dreams, but as a phenomenon, we really don't understand them

obviously nobody is predicting the future or any of that nonsense, but whether they represent thoughts and emotions that you really are trying to deal with, or simply associative memories that arise from your mind as you sleep, the jury is still out

I tend to think they have little meaning at all, and our inability to really understand "dreaming" as a human behaviour comes from our own inability to give up the idea that they are important

Originally posted by inimalist


obviously nobody is predicting the future or any of that nonsene

Why?

Originally posted by ThAnus_ofTITass
Why?

because it is demonstrably false and there is no realistic or even theoretical mechanism through which it could occur

Originally posted by inimalist
because it is demonstrably false and there is no realistic or even theoretical mechanism through which it could occur

What about project Startgate?

what about it?

Originally posted by inimalist
what about it?

The US ran it officially for 25 years..... They claimed to have better than chance odds on clairvoyance.

the data is very unconvincing and almost certainly represents chance/type 1 errors, and even still, the most adament proponents in the scientific community admit the results show no real pattern and have no plausible mechanism

Originally posted by inimalist
the data is very unconvincing and almost certainly represents chance/type 1 errors, and even still, the most adament proponents in the scientific community admit the results show no real pattern and have no plausible mechanism

It got funding for 25 years officially, show where a better than chance finding with 25 years of data is ambiguous........ Proponents of what? Where?

Jessica Utts, one of the few members of the scientific community who considers the results significant, admits in her own review that the results show no real pattern and that there is no real mechanism.

It took less than 25 years for physicists to go from "you can't split the atom" to making the atomic bomb, 25 years of study with no clear results means there is no phenomenon.

Originally posted by inimalist
Jessica Utts, one of the few members of the scientific community who considers the results significant, admits in her own review that the results show no real pattern and that there is no real mechanism.

It took less than 25 years for physicists to go from "you can't split the atom" to making the atomic bomb, 25 years of study with no clear results means there is no phenomenon.

Perhaps it will take the spending required to quickly win the Pacific War and the greatest brains all coming together in one place with unlimited Government backing to solve this and anything else. ;-)

Originally posted by ThAnus_ofTITass
Perhaps it will take the spending required to quickly win the Pacific War and the greatest brains all coming together in one place with unlimited Government backing to solve this and anything else. ;-)

that consisted of maybe 4-5 years, after all the theoretical work had been done in independant labs throughout the world, especially the work of Leo Salizard

http://www.amazon.com/Before-Fallout-Marie-Curie-Hiroshima/dp/0802714455

Originally posted by inimalist
that consisted of maybe 4-5 years, after all the theoretical work had been done in independant labs throughout the world, especially the work of Leo Salizard

http://www.amazon.com/Before-Fallout-Marie-Curie-Hiroshima/dp/0802714455

Actually no, ever seen the play Coppenhagen or read Oppenheiners Journals in the Treasury of Physics?

um, no, it wasn't until salizard proved it was possible to cause a chain reaction in splitting the Uranium atom that either the British or American governments took the idea seriously, and even then, it took an incredible amount of realpolitiking by atomic scientists to get the bomb underway, including a reference letter from Einstein. The allies very nearly didn't try for a bomb, especially after they destroyed the heavy water facilities the nazis had

Originally posted by inimalist
um, no, it wasn't until salizard proved it was possible to cause a chain reaction in splitting the Uranium atom that either the British or American governments took the idea seriously, and even then, it took an incredible amount of realpolitiking by atomic scientists to get the bomb underway, including a reference letter from Einstein. The allies very nearly didn't try for a bomb, especially after they destroyed the heavy water facilities the nazis had

Actually the big issue was the calculation as Coppenhagen and Oppenheimers notes show.

Oppenheimer only got involved in the project after the government set it up. He was doing nuclear physics, but he was not the person whose work showed a bomb was possible. iirc, oppenheimer was at one point entirely unconvinced that a chain reaction was possible (I might be confusing him with Bohr...)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

Originally posted by inimalist
Oppenheimer only got involved in the project after the government set it up. He was doing nuclear physics, but he was not the person whose work showed a bomb was possible. iirc, oppenheimer was at one point entirely unconvinced that a chain reaction was possible (I might be confusing him with Bohr...)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

What you've been getting at is that the investment into the atom splitting research paid off and that the same research in dreams and clairvoyance has yet to reap any dependable benefits, right?

exactly

not only that, in terms of atomic research, it wasn't that the research paid off, its that there was an entire 180 degree shift in the paradigm of what physcists believed. The remote viewing stuff didn't even produce results that can't be explained by chance alone.

If 25 years and millions of dollars were put into any field that was even remotely true, there would be replicable results and some clear ideas about how things worked.

Originally posted by inimalist
exactly

not only that, in terms of atomic research, it wasn't that the research paid off, its that there was an entire 180 degree shift in the paradigm of what physcists believed. The remote viewing stuff didn't even produce results that can't be explained by chance alone.

If 25 years and millions of dollars were put into any field that was even remotely true, there would be replicable results and some clear ideas about how things worked. Yeah I think that pretty much ties it. That's a long time to study dreams and not have much more ability to use them to predict things of importance. But if it did work would it be kept a secret? That's also a long time to invest into something that's reaping 0 results. Speaking for myself, my dreams are many and vary from fun dreams to nightmares and dreams that make no sense at all. I had one dream that came true but if you dream that you're in the rain and the next day it rains that's coincidence. Sometimes there might be more details than that but still it's not like a person can't predict future events when they're awake as well. The only thing that I can think of as documented proof of non-religious prediction is Nastrodamus. I'm quite the skeptic nowadays but his story seems solid.

its strange, I've never really dreamed, or at least, I don't remember them at all, but I swear I don't

If you deprive someone of REM-stage sleep (not all sleep, just REM-stage), it effects mental functioning. Eg, at some point, you will begin to hallucinate (essentially, dreaming will be "forced upon you" even in your waking state).

Dreams can reveal deeper levels of psychological activity, things going on "down under." Some very creative solutions to problems have occured in dreams.

Are they channels to the transcendent? I've yet to see any extraordinary evidence to back-up those extraordinary claims...though for myself, as I've mentioned in other threads, I have had numerous "suspicious coincidences." But still, nothing I could grasp, wave over my head and go, "See!"

Loosely speaking, everyone dreams, and dreaming occurs 24/7. But our attention is brought to it when the organism takes a break from environmental vigilence. As to why some people remember their dreams and others don't: the theories are, those who remember tend to ascend through the sleep stages more abruptly than those who don't remember; and/or also, some people just have better memories.

I typed this quickly, so some points may have to be clarified.

Mine tells the future sometimes and others are just enjoyable ones or nightmares.

Originally posted by inimalist
its strange, I've never really dreamed, or at least, I don't remember them at all, but I swear I don't

I read somewhere that protein deficiency plays a part in not remembering dreams. My son was complaining about not remembering dreams so I'm going to eat more steak for a while and see if we get any results. I eat a lot of red meat and I dream quite often but we've been trying to eat healthier so I've been eating less steak. Notably my dreams have been far less frequent to the point where I've missed them.

given we still know very little about "where dreams come from", so to speak, that isn't enitrely impossible

though in my case I find it unlikely. Its something that has been with me my whole life, and my mother was nuts about making sure I had a good diet

Originally posted by Mindship
Dreams can reveal deeper levels of psychological activity, things going on "down under." Some very creative solutions to problems have occured in dreams. I believe that this makes good sense. The world that we dream about is built from experiences that we have had in the conscious world. It would be cool if somehow we found a way to enter it with awareness similar to the Matrix. I've had dreams where I became aware that I was dreaming and the results are pretty cool. I don't have godlike power but I have some control over things similar to having powers and not knowing how to use them.
Originally posted by Mindship
...though for myself, as I've mentioned in other threads, I have had numerous "suspicious coincidences." But still, nothing I could grasp, wave over my head and go, "See!"

Depending on the distance of some future event that a person accurately predicts and the relevance of said event to the dreamer, I'd say that would be evidence that there is something to it. Like if you dreamed about the tsunami two years before it happened and everyone was talking about tsunamis.


Originally posted by Mindship
Loosely speaking, everyone dreams, and dreaming occurs 24/7. But our attention is brought to it when the organism takes a break from environmental vigilence. As to why some people remember their dreams and others don't: the theories are, those who remember tend to ascend through the sleep stages more abruptly than those who don't remember; and/or also, some people just have better memories.

I typed this quickly, so some points may have to be clarified. When you say dreaming 24/7 do you mean the subconscious mind is at work 24/7?

Originally posted by The MISTER
A buddy of mine was looking for a meaning behind a dream I considered to be just another crazy dream. He said I was ignoring an obvious message about the worlds end. I don't think dreams have deep meanings that we should spend a lot of valuable time deciphering. But I only have my many crazy dreams to go off of. What do you think? Are dreams ever messages? Aren't end of the world dreams as common as end of the world movies?

Dreams are always personal, and only about the person who had the dream. The idea that a dream could have something to do with the end of the world, is projecting the dream into a realm that a dream can't go. It is more likely that a dream about the end of the world is about some kind of ending taking place in the person's life. The end of a relationship, or a job are possible examples of what a dream about the end of the world could mean.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Mine tells the future sometimes and others are just enjoyable ones or nightmares. It sounds like you remember your dreams well. Can you remember dreams from years ago?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is more likely that a dream about the end of the world is about some kind of ending taking place in the person's life. The end of a relationship, or a job are possible examples of what a dream about the end of the world could mean.

what evidence are you basing this on?

Originally posted by inimalist
what evidence are you basing this on?

The fact that there are no psychic abilities in dreams. If you believe in that kind of thing, then you need to prove that to me.

However, the subconscious mind is always interpreting things in your life. If a dream is going to have a meaning, and they don't always, then it is going to be something from your own life.

Originally posted by inimalist
what evidence are you basing this on?

Well, I agree with him (again talking out of my layman ass). It seems to me that it is more likely that it may be based on personal reasons than predictions. Perhaps not very likely but the outside predictions things seems to me close to 0% likely #hmm#

Originally posted by inimalist
its strange, I've never really dreamed is that possible? i swear i have had a dream every single night of my whole life

I don't usually recall my dreams, I do sometimes. Often it seems to me that there are clear reasons why I dreamt about the things I did, though I can't vouch that it isn't meaning I apply to retroactively. Sometimes I only recall certain words or something and things tend to fade fast.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The fact that there are no psychic abilities in dreams. If you believe in that kind of thing, then you need to prove that to me.

However, the subconscious mind is always interpreting things in your life. If a dream is going to have a meaning, and they don't always, then it is going to be something from your own life.

ok, what evidence do you have that dreams represent unconscious meaning or working through of personal issues, rather than random thoughts?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I agree with him (again talking out of my layman ass). It seems to me that it is more likely that it may be based on personal reasons than predictions. Perhaps not very likely but the outside predictions things seems to me close to 0% likely #hmm#

I'm questioning the personal relevance part. The idea that dreams hold some deeper meaning than simply being what we are thinking about at any given time, afaik, is not really supported by solid evidence.

Obviously it would be notoriously hard to test, but if Shakey wants to speak so authoritatively on the issue, I'm interested in where he is getting his opinion from

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
is that possible? i swear i have had a dream every single night of my whole life

the reason I feel that I don't dream, as opposed to not remembering dreams, is because it is a little tongue-in-cheek for me to say I don't dream.

I might "dream" once or twice a month, say, and I know that I have one, because it feels a certain way when I wake up. I can never really remember them anyways, but there is a markedly different experience personally to dreaming and not remembering vs not dreaming.

I can't confirm this in any meaningful way, but there are issues like, I don't sleep very well or soundly, I am somewhat of an insomniac, and even the fact that I don't get visual hallucinations when I do psychadellic drugs (some people link the two, idk though)

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm questioning the personal relevance part. The idea that dreams hold some deeper meaning than simply being what we are thinking about at any given time, afaik, is not really supported by solid evidence.


I don't understand how exactly you'd differentiate between that. I mean thinking about things can have meaning to you. Dreams being something you try to analyze more deeply than many other things you think about so I can see why it can help you understand your thoughts about an issue. Unless you think dreams have no or vastly diminished relation to you compared to things you think about during waking times?

I suppose that's not a magical deeper meaning, but it would make them not pointless in that respect anyways.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, what evidence do you have that dreams represent unconscious meaning or working through of personal issues, rather than random thoughts?

They could be random thoughts, but the interpretation is not random, and the images that are created are also not random. If you have a dream that is random in its meaning to your life, it will not register with you, but those the strike a cord, are the ones you remember. Those dreams are made of images that are drawn from things in your life. It is really no different then thinking about something, and coming up with an answer. As an artist, I will put things in the back of my mind, and wait for an answer. It is the same thing. The answer might come to me in the day or night in a dream.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
and the images that are created are also not random.

this

how do you know this

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't understand how exactly you'd differentiate between that. I mean thinking about things can have meaning to you. Dreams being something you try to analyze more deeply than many other things you think about so I can see why it can help you understand your thoughts about an issue. Unless you think dreams have no or vastly diminished relation to you compared to things you think about during waking times?

I suppose that's not a magical deeper meaning, but it would make them not pointless in that respect anyways.

but, if there is no real source for generating "meaningful symbols" in your dreams, this process would be no different than reflecting on the personal significance of ink-blot interpretations, something considered to have little psychological value.

Originally posted by inimalist
this

how do you know this

The image of a car in a dream is am image of a car. If the image of a car is random, then you will not identify it as a car. Images are pulled from a library of sorts, in the mind. The relationship of the images maybe random, but those sets of images will not stick with you. The ones that stand out are the ones that are given meaning by you. That meaning is of value.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The image of a car in a dream is am image of a car. If the image of a car is random, then you will not identify it as a car. Images are pulled from a library of sorts, in the mind. The relationship of the images maybe random, but those sets of images will not stick with you. The ones that stand out are the ones that are given meaning by you. That meaning is of value.

so then you would agree that similar meaningful associations that people make with inkblots and the like are of equal value to dream interpretations?

Originally posted by inimalist

but, if there is no real source for generating "meaningful symbols" in your dreams, this process would be no different than reflecting on the personal significance of ink-blot interpretations, something considered to have little psychological value.

I suppose. However you are proposing that dreams are like randomly generated stories in that case, which feels wrong to me as they are produced by the same brain that produce other thoughts, similar thoughts in my experience, but you have like 5 years of psychology/neuroscience study at the highest level on me, so...do you know what the current understanding of that is, are dreams random in that way?

Originally posted by inimalist
so then you would agree that similar meaningful associations that people make with inkblots and the like are of equal value to dream interpretations?

I'm not sure. The idea of inkblots, and their meaning is a powerful icon, that overwhelms any logical thinking.

The dream is unimportant; the interpretation is the process where value is added. Lets say two people have the same dream. One of them has no ability to think (the person is in a comma or something of that sort), the other person is normal. The person who cannot think, does not think about the dream, and therefore there is no meaning. However, the normal person adds value through interpretation of the dream, if the dream has relevance to the persons life. This is a normal process.

Originally posted by The MISTER
I believe that this makes good sense. The world that we dream about is built from experiences that we have had in the conscious world. It would be cool if somehow we found a way to enter it with awareness similar to the Matrix. I've had dreams where I became aware that I was dreaming and the results are pretty cool. I don't have godlike power but I have some control over things similar to having powers and not knowing how to use them.Lucid dreaming: this has been a hobby of mine for years. Yeah, it is pretty cool when you're able to work with the dream (as opposed to, eg, trying to "take over".

Depending on the distance of some future event that a person accurately predicts and the relevance of said event to the dreamer, I'd say that would be evidence that there is something to it. Like if you dreamed about the tsunami two years before it happened and everyone was talking about tsunamis. Years ago, there was this girl in one of my college classes. Attractive, but nothing spectacular: I felt no particular urge to get to know her, anymore than the other girls in that class. Anyways, she always sat at one end of the room, I at the other. One night I had a dream that she sat right next to me on my left. The next day: she did exactly that. Nothing came of it: we chatted a bit, that was it. But that "coincidence"(?) made a big impression on me.

When you say dreaming 24/7 do you mean the subconscious mind is at work 24/7? Yes. When we're asleep, it gets highlighted as the spotlight of our attention shifts inward.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I suppose. However you are proposing that dreams are like randomly generated stories in that case, which feels wrong to me as they are produced by the same brain that produce other thoughts, similar thoughts in my experience,

the thing is, you are talking about the narrative that is built around experience, which itself is a process of the mind. dreams aren't a story you are telling yourself, but rather the "story" of the dream comes from your brain creating the most reasonable narrative based on current sensory input (in the case of dreams, the input generates from inside the brain, rather than through the eyes and ears). This is actually how the brain works during waking life as well. The "story" of how you understand events is built by your brain, based on the best immediatly available information.

Originally posted by Bardock42
but you have like 5 years of psychology/neuroscience study at the highest level on me, so...do you know what the current understanding of that is, are dreams random in that way?

i don't know, and the current understanding isn't much clearer. There are many theories that vary from them being extremely important personal symbols to them having no relevance at all.

My assumption is that this "meaning" interpretation comes as an artifact of Freud and Jung, given this was a big area for both of them, and one that continues to be difficult to address empirically.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm not sure. The idea of inkblots, and their meaning is a powerful icon, that overwhelms any logical thinking.

The dream is unimportant; the interpretation is the process where value is added. Lets say two people have the same dream. One of them has no ability to think (the person is in a comma or something of that sort), the other person is normal. The person who cannot think, does not think about the dream, and therefore there is no meaning. However, the normal person adds value through interpretation of the dream, if the dream has relevance to the persons life. This is a normal process.

ok, but forget that we disagree about the value of associative-meaning tests, you don't see anything particularly special about dream-meaning versus other types of associations people build?

Originally posted by inimalist
the thing is, you are talking about the narrative that is built around experience, which itself is a process of the mind. dreams aren't a story you are telling yourself, but rather the "story" of the dream comes from your brain creating the most reasonable narrative based on current sensory input (in the case of dreams, the input generates from inside the brain, rather than through the eyes and ears). This is actually how the brain works during waking life as well. The "story" of how you understand events is built by your brain, based on the best immediatly available information.

I don't know this sounds to me like it could be useful, if thought about and interpreted. These sensory inputs, and the story that's created are they unrelated to things your past ideas and believes though, because as someone who dreams at times, the story at least is often along the lines of things or feelings I know or experience.

Originally posted by inimalist
i don't know, and the current understanding isn't much clearer. There are many theories that vary from them being extremely important personal symbols to them having no relevance at all.

Why do you land on the side of no relevance?

Originally posted by inimalist
My assumption is that this "meaning" interpretation comes as an artifact of Freud and Jung, given this was a big area for both of them, and one that continues to be difficult to address empirically.

Oh yeah, I do believe that, too. And I don't attribute to them an incredibly powerful, insightful meaning.

i have seen things in my dreams that i never have seen in real life or felt in real life

i had a dream i was burning once and the fire felt so real and hurted so much and i never have been burnt before

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but forget that we disagree about the value of associative-meaning tests, you don't see anything particularly special about dream-meaning versus other types of associations people build?

I'd say it's at most as useful as reflection on other thoughts or daydreams or experiences you had. Maybe it's no more useful than random musings on anything random, but I think it may have more potential.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but forget that we disagree about the value of associative-meaning tests, you don't see anything particularly special about dream-meaning versus other types of associations people build?

Generally, yes, but I also believe that dreams are a form of communication between the conscious and unconscious mind. This is not always the case, but for me, it is often the case. I remember some studies that were done on this topic, but I can't recall the outcome of the study.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't know this sounds to me like it could be useful, if thought about and interpreted. These sensory inputs, and the story that's created are they unrelated to things your past ideas and believes though, because as someone who dreams at times, the story at least is often along the lines of things or feelings I know or experience.

fair enough. These types of associations that people make, themselves, tend to be with regard to things that are immediatly salient to them. So, yes, if you are dreaming that you are failing a test you know is coming up in a week, then the interpretation "I don't feel ready for the test" is probably valid and useful. And in this way, all forms of association can be useful, to a limited degree. If someone does legitimately see death and violence in any ambigious image you show them, it probably indicates they have some negative cognitions.

I'm not trying to say the meaning you can take from a dream is not relevant, but more that the meaning you take from the dream is not the purpose of the dream itself. I don't feel dreams are trying to "help" you through things, or "tell" you how you feel about things, though it is likely they will reflect your immediate cognitive state.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Why do you land on the side of no relevance?

cynically: because I don't dream

more seriously: its not my field, so even my opinion here is little better than a layman, other than to say, it doesn't make sense that your brain would try to subconsciously "tell" your "dreaming" mind something.

To me, the meaningfull interpretations seem to work backwards, they assume dreams have meaning, and then when they make what I would call arbitrary connections between dreams and a person's life, they claim they were correct. And like I was talking about earlier with psychic powers, I would assume, given all the work that has been done on dreams, if there were some strong association between dreams and meaning, we would at least be able to point to some strongly conclusive results.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Generally, yes, but I also believe that dreams are a form of communication between the conscious and unconscious mind. This is not always the case, but for me, it is often the case. I remember some studies that were done on this topic, but I can't recall the outcome of the study.

how do differeientiate between the conscious and unconscious mind?

Originally posted by inimalist
fair enough. These types of associations that people make, themselves, tend to be with regard to things that are immediatly salient to them. So, yes, if you are dreaming that you are failing a test you know is coming up in a week, then the interpretation "I don't feel ready for the test" is probably valid and useful. And in this way, all forms of association can be useful, to a limited degree. If someone does legitimately see death and violence in any ambigious image you show them, it probably indicates they have some negative cognitions.

I'm not trying to say the meaning you can take from a dream is not relevant, but more that the meaning you take from the dream is not the purpose of the dream itself. I don't feel dreams are trying to "help" you through things, or "tell" you how you feel about things, though it is likely they will reflect your immediate cognitive state.



cynically: because I don't dream

more seriously: its not my field, so even my opinion here is little better than a layman, other than to say, it doesn't make sense that your brain would try to subconsciously "tell" your "dreaming" mind something.

To me, the meaningfull interpretations seem to work backwards, they assume dreams have meaning, and then when they make what I would call arbitrary connections between dreams and a person's life, they claim they were correct. And like I was talking about earlier with psychic powers, I would assume, given all the work that has been done on dreams, if there were some strong association between dreams and meaning, we would at least be able to point to some strongly conclusive results.

Alright, well we seem to be on the same page really.

Originally posted by inimalist
how do differeientiate between the conscious and unconscious mind?

Are you asking me how do I tell the difference? Or how does science tell the difference?

I do it this way: I need to build something. I use all my skills to build this thing, but sometimes that is not enough. Problems arise, and I don't know how to fix them. I will "put" the problem in the "back of my mind" and wait for an answer. What am I doing? What does "put" mean? What is the "back of my mind" mean? I really don't know, but it works. You tell me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Are you asking me how do I tell the difference? Or how does science tell the difference?

actually, even among professionals, terms like conscious and unconscious are very contentious. I'm wondering to understand what you mean

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do it this way: I need to build something. I use all my skills to build this thing, but sometimes that is not enough. Problems arise, and I don't know how to fix them. I will "put" the problem in the "back of my mind" and wait for an answer. What am I doing? What does "put" mean? What is the "back of my mind" mean? I really don't know, but it works. You tell me.

I get ya. I might call those explicit and implicit reasoning, but thats not quite accurate.

Originally posted by inimalist
actually, even among professionals, terms like conscious and unconscious are very contentious. I'm wondering to understand what you mean



I get ya. I might call those explicit and implicit reasoning, but thats not quite accurate.

I think dreams can be the same thing. What makes it difficult to categorize is the fact that it is not always.

Dream symbolism / interpretation is a tricky subject. I tend to view mind and body as two aspects of the same whole. Very generally speaking, since we have physiological processes in common, I suspect there may be "universal" dream symbols reflecting these common processes, and which are further shaped by a person's experiences. But as a rule, when I do dream interpretation, I focus more on emotional content than any particular symbolism.

As for the "purpose" of dreams: as with anything going on in/with an organism, the "purpose" is to keep the organism going, healthily and happily if possible. Dreaming is simply our perception of subtler psychophysiological processes at work.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think dreams can be the same thing. What makes it difficult to categorize is the fact that it is not always.

I hate the experience of knowing something without being able to express it in words, which I think is similar to what you are saying

Originally posted by Mindship
Dream symbolism / interpretation is a tricky subject. I tend to view mind and body as two aspects of the same whole. Very generally speaking, since we have physiological processes in common, I suspect there may be "universal" dream symbols reflecting these common processes, and which are further shaped by a person's experiences. But as a rule, when I do dream interpretation, I focus more on emotional content than any particular symbolism.

huh, that is a really interesting point. Given the fact that there are nearly universal human cognitions and behaviours, it does sort of follow that some dreams, or at least the way some of the symbols we interpret out of them, might be common and reflect some evolutionary/plasticity development...

lol, I had a discussion in one of my courses earlier this term about whether some moral beliefs might be the same, actually hard wired into us based on evolution rather than culture. this is the stuff I got nuts for, tbh

Originally posted by inimalist
its strange, I've never really dreamed, or at least, I don't remember them at all, but I swear I don't

try some "African Dream Root" (Silene capensis), this herb apparently helps to have excellent deep & lucid dreams.

not sure of the legality in some countries mind.

info link

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, I had a discussion in one of my courses earlier this term about whether some moral beliefs might be the same, actually hard wired into us based on evolution rather than culture. this is the stuff I got nuts for, tbh Yup, that topic has popped up more than once on these here forums. Seems plausible, but we'll have a better idea if/when scientists find the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" gene.

On the other hand, some people do not dream at all, and this is supposedly caused by a "mind that is at ease with itself."

So... lemme just say i t makes a lot of sense to me for the main people discussing this topic to be here discussing this topic.

Originally posted by siriuswriter


On the other hand, some people do not dream at all, and this is supposedly caused by a "mind that is at ease with itself."

So... lemme just say i t makes a lot of sense to me for the main people discussing this topic to be here discussing this topic.

People who say they don't dream, are really saying they don't remember their dreams. Not being able to dream can lead to death.

Originally posted by inimalist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

The big issue was the mass calculation and focussing to achieve the chain reaction. Watch Coppenhagen, it was an issue to allies and the Germas who should have got the bomb first. ;-)

Originally posted by ThAnus_ofTITass
Why? why would you even question wether or not dreams foretelling the future is true or not?

I'm trying to teach myself to lucid dream now. Haven't made much progress in that regard but now that I keep a journal I remember them a lot better.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm trying to teach myself to lucid dream now. Haven't made much progress in that regard but now that I keep a journal I remember them a lot better. I've noticed that the chances for me having a lucid dream improve if I have one or two beers a not to long before sleeping. Not making this up.

Originally posted by siriuswriter


On the other hand, some people do not dream at all, and this is supposedly caused by a "mind that is at ease with itself."

So... lemme just say i t makes a lot of sense to me for the main people discussing this topic to be here discussing this topic. Domestic dogs must really be uneasy then.
They have so much to worry about.

I don't doubt that. I really don't lucid dream at all naturally, i'm trying to change my awareness to be more conducive to it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't doubt that. I really don't lucid dream at all naturally, i'm trying to change my awareness to be more conducive to it. Good luck and please share any ways that seem to work. I have my most memorable dreams sporadically but it would be cool to have them more frequently. Especially the ones that you can control. I'm 32 and I've only controlled about ten dreams from about age 16 to now. I want more!

Originally posted by Sappho
why would you even question wether or not dreams foretelling the future is true or not?


are true? fortelling? etc...

What does your post even mean?

There are a variety of lucidity induction techniques (google-able), but the single, common, most effective element appears to be the "heartfeltness" of the induction. Eg, if you repeat to yourself, "Tonight I will know I'm dreaming," as your laying in bed, ideally you should be relaxed, have your head as clear as possible, and allow this command to "fill you." Practice and patience are also virtues, as is keeping a dream journal.

The Beer Technique...I suspect there'd be more success with another approach, as alcohol usually tends to interfere with dreaming. But, perhaps, a serendipitous discovery has been made here...

Also be aware that you may indeed be aware that you're dreaming without openly acknowleding it to yourself (ie, tacit lucidity).

I would have thought that alcohol would make sleep deeper and dreams harder to remember but the beer thing wasn't even on purpose at first just really noticeable. Have you noticed the same thing or have you heard it before?

Originally posted by The MISTER
I would have thought that alcohol would make sleep deeper and dreams harder to remember but the beer thing wasn't even on purpose at first just really noticeable. Have you noticed the same thing or have you heard it before? It's news to me. Perhaps what the beer is doing is helping you to relax beforehand, or it's keeping "deeper concerns" at bay so you could afford the lucidity. But this is just a guess. If I may suggest: try another induction method (keep a log) and compare results.

Also, once you become lucid, go with the flow of the dream, as this usually helps to maintain lucidity. Ie, if you force your own agenda, you'll either lose lucidity or wake up. This doesn't necessarily mean you can't "play." It's just been my own experience that things work better if you consider yourself in a partnership with the dream, rather than as something to dominate.

Originally posted by Mindship
It's news to me. Perhaps what the beer is doing is helping you to relax beforehand, or it's keeping "deeper concerns" at bay so you could afford the lucidity. But this is just a guess. If I may suggest: try another induction method (keep a log) and compare results.

Also, once you become lucid, go with the flow of the dream, as this usually helps to maintain lucidity. Ie, if you force your own agenda, you'll either lose lucidity or wake up. This doesn't necessarily mean you can't "play." It's just been my own experience that things work better if you consider yourself in a partnership with the dream, rather than as something to dominate. You're absolutely right about dominating the dream causing me to wake up! But you can fight waking for a little while. Flying is usually the first thing I'll try when I figure out that I'm dreaming. I've made it work about three times and total control is still not there. Other times I just got some high floaty jumps but no take off... Every time I manage to wake myself up enjoying it to much. But it is worth it though! I've forced other things too like giving myself powers or super strength but honestly that does not work as well at all. Flying's easiest to just make happen. I'm going to try the beer thing tonight for kicks.

Originally posted by The MISTER
It sounds like you remember your dreams well. Can you remember dreams from years ago?

Sort of but not alot of it.Just bits and pieces of it.

Originally posted by The MISTER
You're absolutely right about dominating the dream causing me to wake up! But you can fight waking for a little while. Flying is usually the first thing I'll try when I figure out that I'm dreaming. I've made it work about three times and total control is still not there. Other times I just got some high floaty jumps but no take off... Every time I manage to wake myself up enjoying it to much. But it is worth it though! I've forced other things too like giving myself powers or super strength but honestly that does not work as well at all. Flying's easiest to just make happen. I'm going to try the beer thing tonight for kicks. Flying is definitely the easiest of the 'powers', with superstrength probably second. I also find 'phasing'/intangibility relatively easy (did this last night, as a matter of fact).

Major source of power comes from breathing: the 'breath of power' (exhalation) I find clears a 'battlefield' really fast.

General rule: try to engage the dream via your will, as opposed to your thoughts, for it's your will which pervades the dream, not your thoughts.

Do dreams really matter at all?

Nah, they don't matter unless they're wet.

Originally posted by Mindship
It's news to me. Perhaps what the beer is doing is helping you to relax beforehand, or it's keeping "deeper concerns" at bay so you could afford the lucidity. But this is just a guess. If I may suggest: try another induction method (keep a log) and compare results.

Also, once you become lucid, go with the flow of the dream, as this usually helps to maintain lucidity. Ie, if you force your own agenda, you'll either lose lucidity or wake up. This doesn't necessarily mean you can't "play." It's just been my own experience that things work better if you consider yourself in a partnership with the dream, rather than as something to dominate.
I read that you can make yourself stay asleep to some extent by spinning during your dream, if you think you might wake soon.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I read that you can make yourself stay asleep to some extent by spinning during your dream, if you think you might wake soon. Sounds like an anchoring technique, like now and then looking at your hands.

Well evidently its supposed to be especially effective because of the way it operates on your brain or something. I can't test it because I don't lucid dream yet.

Interesting. I'll try to remember.

Originally posted by Mindship
Interesting. I'll try to remember.
I forgot to get the beer.

Originally posted by The MISTER
I forgot to get the beer. Man, I'm relying on you for some breakthroughs in this area. dontgetit

Anyway, I did a little research on this dream spinning. It is, basically, an anchoring/reminder technique, the idea being to perform some behavior which engages more of the body than just a verbal reminder.

I believe LaBerge is still one of the foremost researchers in lucidity.

http://www.lucidity.com/NL7.34.RU.SpinFlowRub.html

I ate Doritoes right before I went to sleep and had a lucid dream last night. Can't say it was a good one..

Thanksgiving --> turkey --> tryptophan.
Oneironauts, begin inductions now.

closedeyes

Originally posted by Mindship
Thanksgiving --> turkey --> tryptophan.
Oneironauts, begin inductions now.

closedeyes LOVE IT.