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A question has been in my mind for a while now since I've seen TFU II come along, If the Starkiller in TFU II would meet and fight Luke Skywalker from Return of the Jedi...Who would win?... Personally I'm rooting for Starkiller especially since he was also trained by Yoda for a bit but I want to know what the rest of you people think.

Location: Degobah Swamp


(If this is a topic that has been posted in the past I apologize and request a link to it. Thank you. )

So you think Starkiller would win because he was trained Yoda. And you think RotJ Luke would lose... because he was trained by Yoda?

I like it when people smile. We should smile more on the internets.



Anyway Starkiller in an ungodly stomp.

Yeah, Starkiller rolls with ridiculous ease.

Does he actually get training from Yoda?

From the scenes I've seen he just goes to Degobah meets Yoda, then goes into that DarkSide cave to have a vision. Id hardly call that training. Unless theres a scene I've missed??

Either way he destroys Luke as of ROTJ.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Does he actually get training from Yoda?

From the scenes I've seen he just goes to Degobah meets Yoda, then goes into that DarkSide cave to have a vision. Id hardly call that training. Unless theres a scene I've missed??

Either way he destroys Luke as of ROTJ.

the training montage with the rocks and the running. and yoda riding along.

Originally posted by truejedi
the training montage with the rocks and the running. and yoda riding along.

...

He's talking about Starkiller... But yes, he did get training, one phrase of advice= training.

I see where the OP fails with his logic about Yoda's training though.

Yes. The common sense around here is... lacking at times.

Anyways, Starkiller wins in a roflstomp.

Make it NJO Luke and we have a fight.

No, I meant to say that I feel Starkiller would win even though he AND Luke received training from Yoda. I apologize for my wording.

and Ok then, lets make it NJO Luke then. What do you all think? I personally don't know on this one, it's a bit close to call.

Well NJO Luke obviously wins this, as a weaker version of Luke was close to a much stronger version of Sidious who is more powerful than Starkiller.

Btw, Starkiller didn't get any training from Yoda.

..I guess I was wrong about the training then, sorry for the ignorance.

anyway, how do you get that Starkiller is weaker than Sidious? he pretty much went toe to toe against him when they fought on the Death Star until they got into the Force Lightning Lock and only lived because Kota stopped him from killing Sidious.

Theres a source that directly states that Starkiller is no match for the Emperor.

There's sources and visual proof. If Lucas tells me Starkiller is no match then I'm fine with that. but for now I stand by the fact of what I saw in The Force Unleashed.

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
There's sources and visual proof. If Lucas tells me Starkiller is no match then I'm fine with that. but for now I stand by the fact of what I saw in The Force Unleashed.

I saw Palpatine holding back. What did you see?

Here is the source: Official Star Wars Databank

You may actually be surprised by this, but the databank trumps the games cutscene in canonicity.

Very well then, NJO Luke Wins. I stand corrected. *Bows* Thank you for your input.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Here is the source: Official Star Wars Databank

You may actually be surprised by this, but the databank trumps the games cutscene in canonicity.

The Star Wars databank says that Yoda culdnt beat Dooku on Geonosis.

Just saying

He couldn't. Thats why Dooku got away.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Star Wars databank says that Yoda culdnt beat Dooku on Geonosis.

Just saying

Yoda's page: "Yoda and Dooku engaged in battle. First, their powers in the Force were put to test, as Dooku attempted to crush the tiny Jedi Master with hurled debris. Yoda easily deflected such assaults, and even repulsed Dooku's Force lightning attacks. The contest came down to a duel of lightsabers. In a climactic battle, the two master combatants displayed amazing speed and agility. Yoda, empowered by the Force, leaped through the air, twirling and battering at Dooku's defenses. Dooku only managed to escape by using the Force to once again jeopardize Anakin and Obi-Wan. Knowing that Yoda's nobility would buy him time, Dooku fled as the ancient Jedi Master saved his younger compatriots."

Dooku's page: "The Jedi Master Yoda confronted Dooku. The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other. It came down to a contest of lightsabers. In a blurring tangle of speed and light, the two masters of the Force dueled. Unable to find an advantage, Dooku distracted Yoda by endangering Kenobi and Skywalker with a toppling crane. As Yoda used the Force to save his fellow Jedi, Dooku fled."

EDIT, even better, Obi-Wans page: "Finally, Jedi Master Yoda arrived and attempted to stop Dooku. Though Yoda's withering lightsaber attack nearly stopped the evil Jedi, Dooku was able to distract the diminutive master by endangering Obi-Wan and Anakin with a fallen pillar torn free by the Force. Yoda used his telekinetic abilities to stop the pillar before it crushed the two younger Jedi, and Dooku was able to escape."

DP will only say that "just because Dooku almost died, doesn't mean Yoda can kill him."

Of course DP's also an idiot...

Ah I see, I was thinking of the passage from Dooku's SW profile

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Of course DP's also an idiot...

Oh no Lucien, it was my life long ambition to get your approval.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah I see, I was thinking of the passage from Dooku's SW profile



Oh no Lucien, it was my life long ambition to get your approval. I know, and you failed. Also Ignored.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I know, and you failed. Also Ignored.

I think it's best that everyone would just put him on their ignore list.

The system sucks though, you can still see when they post something and you always get the "This person is on your Ignore List." text instead of just nothing. I'd rather not acknowledge his existence on this forum at all.

Oh no im on ignore?! You guys are both seriously sad

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I think it's best that everyone would just put him on their ignore list.

The system sucks though, you can still see when they post something and you always get the "This person is on your Ignore List." text instead of just nothing. I'd rather not acknowledge his existence on this forum at all. It was especially annoying with HWKN. He posted so much at one point, half of every page was "This person is on your Ignore List." I'll take DP off if he leaves/gets banned.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It was especially annoying with HWKN. He posted so much at one point, half of every page was "This person is on your Ignore List." I'll take DP off if he leaves/gets banned.

At least HWKN knew how to use the edit button. DP loves to triple post...

LOL!!!! Il leave you muppets! Dnt wana irritate people by triple posting, and GOD FORBID challenging their veiws??!!

Besides ive decided its pointless debating EU stuff now. It all a load of inconsistent nonesense written by different authors. Only Lucas's vision counts as far as im concerned.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres a source that directly states that Starkiller is no match for the Emperor.

That's just hyperbole though, same as in guidebooks. We go by feats here.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I saw Palpatine holding back. What did you see?

I saw Palpatine getting his full power lightning pushed back until Galen was close enough to grapple with him, and then howling in pain when his own lightning zapped him.

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
If Lucas tells me Starkiller is no match then I'm fine

If Lucas says it you should take it with a pince of salt. Remember this is the one who said "Han shot first."

Nah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah.

Fixed it for you.

Seriously though, it's like how the handbooks say Batman is the best martial artist on DC Earth, but in the actual comics there are a bunch of people better than him (Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, Shiva etc).

We go by what the comics (novels, movies etc) themselves show.

Problem with that is that unlike the handbooks, the comics and novels are completely up for interpretation. Maybe fighter A only bat fighter B because Fighter B was having an off day? Maybe Fighter B was just cocky, or maybe he lost because the plot needed him to lose.

That's why we have these out of universe sources in the first place, to clarify things.

Well no actually. Official sources > Your interpretation of events.

'As Juno rescued the Senators, Starkiller confronted the Sith Lords who had been manipulating him for years. Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.'

Originally posted by Nephthys

Anyway Starkiller in an ungodly stomp.

Hmmm.

I would Suggest DN Luke but...

you know, "Ultimately Starkiller was no match for Darth Sidious" could mean on that day, or just BARELY not a match. It doesn't mean Sidious >>>> Starkiller.

Imo, being 'no match' for someone implies that its an epic stomp. To take the term literally, it means that you aren't even a worth a 'match' (or to seriously compete with) becuase it's so obvious that you'd lose.

edit: Huh, I didn't see Blax's post before. I'm not talking to you Blax, I'm talking to monkey.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Imo, being 'no match' for someone implies that its an epic stomp. To take the term literally, it means that you aren't even a worth a 'match' (or to seriously compete with) becuase it's so obvious that you'd lose.

edit: Huh, I didn't see Blax's post before. I'm not talking to you Blax, I'm talking to monkey. I wouldn't concern yourself over semantics like that. Hell, in another direction, you could say the inclusion of the word "ultimately" that directly precedes it, is indication that it took some time for the match to conclude. And in a deadly showdown of laser swords and magic powers, time is everything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Imo, being 'no match' for someone implies that its an epic stomp. To take the term literally, it means that you aren't even a worth a 'match' (or to seriously compete with) becuase it's so obvious that you'd lose.

edit: Huh, I didn't see Blax's post before. I'm not talking to you Blax, I'm talking to monkey.


See, to use it literally, no match simply means "isn't matched." So if you lift 800 lbs, and I can only lift 799, I cannot match you. I am no match for you in that case, and its the difference of only a pound.

However in game even Sidious admits that Starkiller was always meant to be the one to take him down and was only stopped by Kota. I don't think Sidious would throw a fight since he had no reason to other than to fully turn Starkiller.

Throwing Fight vs Mace = To turn Anakin to the Dark Side

Asking Anakin to kill him in the Chancellor's Office = To get him doubting the Jedi and to offer his teachings.

note that he did not try the same with Luke Skywalker in ROTJ because he refused to kill Vader...Starkiller essentially does the same and Palpatine would have KILLED Skywalker for his "Lack of Vision". I have no other reason than to believe that Sidious would have tried his best to kill Starkiller since it's under the same circumstances which Starkiller held his own against Sidious until he was drawn into a Stalemate against Palpatine with the lightning.

That's my opinion.

(DS Ending is Non-Canon so don't pull that into argument)

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
That's my opinion. And it was a little erratic and difficult to make sense of.

1) Sidious Told Starkiller that Starkiller was the one that was always meant to destroy him.

2) Sidious had no reason to throw the fight because there was nothing for him to gain personally.

3) Knowing those two points, Starkiller is seen holding his own against Sidious and even beats him down but is stopped from killing him by Kota which opened him up to Sidious's Lightning Attack.

G-Canon (Star Wars Database) > C-Canon (game content).

Originally posted by truejedi
you know, "Ultimately Starkiller was no match for Darth Sidious" could mean on that day, or just BARELY not a match. It doesn't mean Sidious >>>> Starkiller. Its not like Sids gave any signs of exhaustion.

Unlike Yoda right after Dooku.

When 900 years old Sidious is, look so good after a fight he won't.

But Yoda was supposed to be teh most uber Jedi ever!

He is. In small doses.

Like GL's penis?

You'd know better than I. smurph

REXXXX knows best.

MasterbatorAshenVor:

1. Sidious was obviously holding back, trying to get SK to turn comletely. Take for instance the fact that he didn't use his lightsaber at all during SK's attack.

2. The Force Lightning contest = SK trying to repel/contain Sids FL, being unable to do so, a big ass explosion that did VERY LITTLE damage to Sidious, and a dead Starkiller. The facts speak for themselves... this h a r d l y constitutes a stalemate.

Haha, I love the fact that you have to revert back to childish name calling in order to make a point Jinsoku. I'm not disrespecting you in any way..I'm arguing my stance..

You also see that Sidious didn't show any signs of exhaustion after fighting Yoda either. So should we suspect that Yoda and Starkiller are close to the same level? Their force contest ended in a force explosion as well even though not nearly as deadly as that of Starkiller and Palpatine's which could suggest that Starkiller might be more powerful than even Yoda?

I however don't see many people saying that Sidious was holding back at that fight...and why? because it's YODA.

Truth is, why would Sidious want Starkiller to turn Dark and rule SIDIOUS's Empire instead of Sidious himself, and Starkiller would have killed Vader after he killed Palpatine as well, I don't see many Sith throwing away their lives to turn a a Force Sensitive into a Sith that they would have no chance to gain power over after.

and as for Sidious not using his saber, he might just have underestimated Starkiller.

Yeah, I think starkiller is very close to Yoda in power.

Originally posted by truejedi
Yeah, I think starkiller is very close to Yoda in power.

Power - maybe. Skill ***k NO!! Lightsaber ability - ***k NO!! Overall - HELL NAH!!!!!

And Ashen - dude, really,,, don't take things so seriously man.

Originally posted by truejedi
Yeah, I think starkiller is very close to Yoda in power.

Close in power, sure. Their force battle would be epic, still I think Yoda would take the majority of wins. Saber-wise though, Yoda rapes SK.

All you asked about was power, obviously in sabers Yoda pwns.

Indeed. Yoda pwns in Lightsabers that is for sure. and a Yoda vs Starkiller Force Fight would be EPIC, but still back on topic.

I don't see a reason why Sidious would hold back when he has nothing to gain from turning Starkiller, as I said before he didn't hold back his fury on Luke Skywalker when he saw he had nothing to gain by keeping him alive. If Starkiller would have killed Sidious, then Sidious wouldn't be alive to gain an advantage over Starkiller and more power from that advantage and as I've said before, Sith don't just give up their lives or their Power/Rule.



@Jinsoku - Alright, I just wasn't sure if you were messing around or not. No worries bro.

TFU I novel is a somewhat different than the game. Starkiller never actually fights Sidious, but does still end up in a Force lightning lock with him when Sidious tried to kill Kota.

Starkiller eventually gets close enough to grab Sidious' shoulders, and Sidious screams in pain from the lightning. However, Starkiller is distracted because stormtroopers chase after his friends. Starkiller drops his defenses and strikes at them, embracing the Force completely. Then, an explosion occurs, and Starkiller is dead, but Sidious and Vader are just fine, as they were in the game.

This explosion (which also engulfed Sidious and Vader) caused by Starkiller was at his most powerful at this point, because he embraced the Force completey, and he still COULDN'T kill Sidious with it.

Sidious wins this. And to agree with esteemed colleagues, if a DE Luke could beat DE Sidious, Starkiller is toast (assuming DE Luke or better).

he coulda <3

But.....

This is ROTJ Luke.

ROTJ Luke dies, no question.

DE Luke vs SK would be a decent match-up.

Okay, this is going to be a fairly long, unbiased, purely fact based decision on who would win between Luke Skywalker from Return of the Jedi and Starkiller from TFUII.
First, let's examine their physical abilities.
Both Luke and Starkiller are human males in their physical prime. Just as any good Jedi, Starkiller and Luke are capable of using the Force to augment their already substantial physical capabilities. However, there is a couple great differences between the two. First, their physical strength. When combatting Vader, Starkiller had a seriously difficult time blocking, due to the brute force in every one of Vader's swings. Meanwhile, Luke was able to easily defend himself from Vader's attacks, and even overwhelm Vader in terms of physical strength. Another huge difference is their endurance. While both of them are complete gluttons for punishment (For example, Luke was totally pummeled with telekinetically hurled objects in Episode V), however, I would have to give the endurance edge to Starkiller. Luke could take quite a beating, but it did have obvious effects on how he fought. Meanwhile, in the first TFU novel, Starkiller was burned twice by Vader's blade, and was able to complete nullify the pain, not to mention he was able to take two steps toward Sidious while being barraged by the Emperor's lethal Force Lightning. So, while Luke might have a serious edge in strength, Starkiller's endurance cancels this out to a degree. In terms of physical ability alone, I shall consider them equal.
Next, we shall look at their martial skills. Now, obviously, we can't judge Starkiller by the game alone (Especially since he had very little variety in terms of how he fought in the game), so instead, we shall take a look at their individual styles, and how well they faired against a common enemy, Darth Vader. First, let's look at Luke. Luke Skywalker had a natural talent far exceeding any Jedi before him. With a brief lesson from Ben, and a short amount of training from Yoda, Luke went toe-to-toe with Darth Vader on Bespin, and the two were practically even. Luke quickly adapted to Vader's style, and actually briefly took the edge in their conflict, until Vader resorted to a pure telekinetic assault, then began to rely on brute force rather than his practiced style. Even then, Luke, a complete novice, was still able to land a strike on Vader. After just one more year of training, Luke's skills hand risen to a whole new level. Where before, Luke struggled with Vader as an opponent, in Episode VI, Luke never lost control of the fight. When he went on the offensive, he overwhelmed Vader in seconds (In literally 8 seconds, and with 11 blows, Luke brought Vader to his knees at the beginning of the fight.) When Luke became passive and stuck to defense, Vader couldn't even come close to actually harming Luke. By Episode VI, Luke had totally outclassed Vader in every way.
Now we shall examine Starkiller's martial capabilities. Starkiller was a non-perfect clone of the original Galen Marek, given many of Marek's original memories, but with a somewhat different skillset. For example, while Marek usually wielded just a single blade, Starkiller wielded two. This was actually an intentional decision by Vader, as a way to ensure Starkiller would not be able to defeat him in lightsaber combat, as Marek had done before. And this becomes quite evident when Starkiller and Vader finally face off at the end of TFUII. During that conflict, Starkiller was totally unable to defeat Vader in straight-forward swordplay, and had no choice but to rely on his strength in the force.
So, since Luke had outclassed Vader to the point where Vader was no longer a challenge, coupled with Luke's insane learning curve and adaptability, along with the fact that Starkiller was totally unable to get an edge against Vader in their duel, I would have to declare Luke the superior lightsaber duelist.

Now, let's consider their Force capabilities. Once again, I'd like to start with Luke, using feats from the movies, as well as a couple novels, such as Splinter of the Mind's Eye. However, even without the inclusion of the novels, most of Luke's feats remain the same. In Episode V, during his training with Yoda, we see that Luke is talented in telekinesis, manipulating several rocks at once and balancing them with surprising precision. We also see that Luke has some talent in precognition and telepathy, as he senses that his friends are in danger, then contacts Leia through telepathy after his duel with Vader. However, Episode V is not where Luke's true potential shines. Now, before I mention Luke's telekinetic feats in Episode VI, I would just like to point out something. At every almost every moment in the Star Wars saga, from when Obi-Wan in Episode I is pulling a lightsaber to his hand to when Darth Vader is hurling boxes and other things at Luke in Episode V, the object being telekinetically moved always rumbles for a brief moment beforehand. I believe this is a sign that the character is concentrating on the object, beginning to get a grip on it through the Force. The only real exceptions to this would be when Sidious is hurling senate pods at Yoda, and all of the times Luke uses the Force in Episode VI. When Luke yanks a blaster from a man's holster in Jabba's palace? No rumble, just an instant of motion, followed by the blaster flying into his hand. When Luke lifts C-3PO in the Ewok village? Not only is there no rumble, and not only does it happen practically instantly, but there is absolutely no sign of strain or effort on Luke's face. It's as if the action is totally effortless for him. And when Luke takes his lightsaber from Palpatine's throne? Once again, we see no brief rumble. This seems to imply that Luke's telekinetic skills in Episode VI were on a level practically never before seen in the rest of the Star Wars saga. And of course, there are a few other feats from Luke in Episode VI, such as effortlessly choking two Gamorrean guards, performing the Jedi Mind Trick, and, whether you chose to believe it was legit or not, there was his so called "Force kick," which was basically a Force push channeled through his foot, while fighting over the Pit of Carkoon. Now, as for Luke's defenses in the Force, there hasn't exactly been much stated. However, it has been shown that he can defend himself against telekinetically hurled objects, in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. In that novel, Vader hurled a massive chunk of stone at Luke, and, on pure instinct, Luke countered by telekinetically launching a stone of his own to deflect the larger one. Now, this was when Luke was close to the Kaiburr crystal, and before Luke had any real training from Yoda. So, there is no reason to believe that Luke would be incapable of the same feat, or a much greater form of defense, by Episode VI.
Now, let's talk about Starkiller's immense Force power. And let me make this perfectly clear, I do believe that Starkiller's Force capability is immense. There's no denying that he has insane destructive potential. Since Starkiller is a clone of Galen Marek, I shall also include some of Marek's feats. First, let's look at his telekinesis. He has been shown defending himself from Vader's telekinetic assaults, easily plowing through waves of regular soldiers with intense Force waves and pushes, and unleashing monstrous lightning. He was even able to guide a falling Star Destroyer using the power of the Force! Though, the effort drained him to near-death. However, there is one serious issue to consider. Most of Starkiller's greatest offensive Force feats were against non-Force wielders. Other Force users were able to easily shrug off even his most intense telekinetic assaults (As shown when Galen Marek gave himself completely to the Force, causing a massive explosion that took his life. Even though Vader and Sidious were practically caught in the very center, there was absolutely no sign that they had been harmed in the slightest). To me, this seems to imply that while Marek, and consequently, Starkiller, had a great deal of power, it was mostly unfocused. Still lethal to anyone who can't use the Force, however, it was almost a trivial matter against other Force wielders. Sure, he could throw huge things around, and launch massive pushes, but it'd be like the difference between getting hit by a beanbag round versus a shotgun slug. Sure, they're both fired by similar means, and they both pack a ton of punch, but the beanbag (Starkiller's Force assaults) isn't really going to do much damage in the long run when compared to a more focused attack. Then we come to Starkiller's lightning against other Force users. Against an unprepared enemy, maybe one who is off guard or disarmed, this attack can be truly devastating. However, as shown by Darth Vader on more than one occasion, and every single boss in the video games, Starkiller's lightning can be easily blocked with a lightsaber. Of course, Starkiller does have a handful of other Force abilities, such as Tutaminis, however, these would be far too specialized to really do him much good in a duel against Luke.
Now, to determine who would have the edge, Force-wise. Luke seldom uses the Force for attack, using it almost entirely for the defensive. Meanwhile, Starkiller's Force feats are almost entirely offensive in comparison. So, Starkiller would not have to worry about defending himself from Luke, but, I do believe he would have an immensely difficult time getting past Luke's defenses with his unfocused assaults. For the sake of this battle, I will consider them equals. Starkiller may be more destructive, but I simply can't see that having as much of an impact in this battle.
Finally, let's take a close look at their combat tactics, and really look at how this fight would play out. We know from the movies that Luke prefers straight-up Lightsaber combat, only using the Force for defense, or to increase his speed, strength, and to let him jump great distances. Meanwhile, Starkiller tends to start with lightsaber combat as well, however, if he finds the opponent is superior to him, he will resort to Force-based attacks quickly to make up for his disadvantage. The way I see this going down, Starkiller would approach Luke, rather confident that he would be able to win this quickly, and Starkiller would be dumbfounded as Luke totally overwhelms him in lightsaber combat. Keep in mind, in the books, Starkiller could barely block the strength of Vader's strikes, and Luke overpowers Vader with pure strength. So, it is entirely possible that Luke would keep Starkiller purely on the defensive, not even so much as giving him an opening to counterattack (Just as Luke had done against Vader at the very start of their duel in Episode VI). He would push Starkiller back, leaving Starkiller little choice but to resort to Force abilities. Now here is where the fight gets tricky. We've never seen Luke defending himself against a purely telekinetic assault. However, I believe it would be entirely reasonable to assume that Yoda at least taught him how to put up a Force shield, as we never see Vader telekinetically pushing Luke. And at the very least, this information may have been in the journals that Luke found in Ben's hut. Regardless, I don't think Starkiller's Force pushes, waves, or repulses would have enough of a punch to give him the edge over the defense-oriented Luke. Failing that, he may resort to trying to telekinetically hurl objects at Luke. Luke, having been overwhelmed by this before in Episode V, surely would have trained to defend himself against a similar attack, especially since Splinter of the Mind's Eye states that he has successful defended himself against thrown objects in the past. And rather than hurl the items back at Starkiller, as many of Starkiller's opponents have been shown to do (Resulting in a bit of a back-and-forth, with the strongest Force user coming out on top), Luke would simply do just enough to deflect the objects away from him, rendering all of Starkiller's telekinetic attacks void. This leaves Starkiller one option, lightning, which we have already seen can be deflected by lightsaber. And keep in mind, during the whole time Starkiller would be trying to use his Force attacks, Luke would still be pressing his lightsaber offensive, so it's entirely likely that Starkiller wouldn't even get the chance to use much in the way of Force abilities during this battle.
In conclusion, I would have to say that Luke takes this. His lightsaber skills are just far too great, and Starkiller's Force attacks are far too unfocused, not packing much of a punch, and certainly not enough to defeat somebody with as much natural connection to the Force as Luke. Luke would continue pressing the offensive with his lightsaber, where he knows he would have an advantage, and would do everything he could to prevent Starkiller from even getting off a Force attack to begin with. Now, Starkiller might take a hell of a beating before he goes down, thanks to his ridiculous endurance, but the result is still the same. I declare Luke the victor. If I overlooked anything, please, let me know.

Don't try saying "Starkiller defeated Sidious." First, that fight was gameplay only, never happened in the novels. The novels take precedence over the games as far as canon is concerned. Second, The only time Sidious was ever actually in pain as a result of Starkiller was when Starkiller grabbed Sidious' shoulders, channeling the Emperor's lightning back into himself. Even then, it was described as "lascivious pain." For those of you who aren't familiar with the word "lascivious," let me give you the exact definition: "(of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire." In other words, Sidious was taking pleasure from it, rather than being honestly injured. And if you would prefer to go with the games for canon, Sidious didn't defend himself from any of Starkiller's attacks (unless you were playing PS2), and when it was all over, Starkiller was still a smoldering corpse, while Sidious still walked away totally uninjured. Starkiller did not come close, in any way conceivable, to defeating Sidious. So don't try to argue that. Just... Don't. I'm sick of it.

Originally posted by That1smartdude
Don't try saying "Starkiller defeated Sidious." First, that fight was gameplay only, never happened in the novels. The novels take precedence over the games as far as canon is concerned. Second, The only time Sidious was ever actually in pain as a result of Starkiller was when Starkiller grabbed Sidious' shoulders, channeling the Emperor's lightning back into himself. Even then, it was described as "lascivious pain." For those of you who aren't familiar with the word "lascivious," let me give you the exact definition: "(of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire." In other words, Sidious was taking pleasure from it, rather than being honestly injured. And if you would prefer to go with the games for canon, Sidious didn't defend himself from any of Starkiller's attacks (unless you were playing PS2), and when it was all over, Starkiller was still a smoldering corpse, while Sidious still walked away totally uninjured. Starkiller did not come close, in any way conceivable, to defeating Sidious. So don't try to argue that. Just... Don't. I'm sick of it.


It's clear no one can really match Sidious now except Yoda.

Who is the superior one? Galen Marek or his clone Starkiller? I only know Starkiller from the game The Force Unleashed II.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's clear no one can really match Sidious now except Yoda.

And Grand Master Luke Skywalker. ^^

Originally posted by Nalaniel


And Grand Master Luke Skywalker. ^^


Well he wasn't around in Sidious's time.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Who is the superior one? Galen Marek or his clone Starkiller? I only know Starkiller from the game The Force Unleashed II.


Galen Marek is the superior lightsaber duelist, as he was able to defeat Darth Vader in straight forward lightsaber contest, where the best Starkiller could hope for was a stalemate. However, due to some of Starkiller's more extreme feats, it's possible that he may be the superior Force wielder, though if so, it will be by such a small margin as to be insignificant in the long run. So, on the whole, I would say neither is really greater than the other, with each of them having a separate, yet equal, skill set. That said, I'm fairly certain Luke would have no trouble beating either one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's clear no one can really match Sidious now except Yoda.

Well, Luke did go against a Sidious clone in Dark Empire, who claimed to be more powerful than ever (Which would make sense, since the clone was in much better physical condition), and in their second encounter, Luke was able to bring him down. And of course, you can't forget that Mace Windu was at least able to hold his own against Sidious (Though, I do believe Sidious threw the fight at the end, when he sensed Anakin coming). So, Luke, Yoda, and Mace are all at least a match for Sidious.

Originally posted by That1smartdude
Now, let's consider their Force capabilities. Once again, I'd like to start with Luke, using feats from the movies, as well as a couple novels, such as Splinter of the Mind's Eye. However, even without the inclusion of the novels, most of Luke's feats remain the same. In Episode V, during his training with Yoda, we see that Luke is talented in telekinesis, manipulating several rocks at once and balancing them with surprising precision. We also see that Luke has some talent in precognition and telepathy, as he senses that his friends are in danger, then contacts Leia through telepathy after his duel with Vader. However, Episode V is not where Luke's true potential shines. Now, before I mention Luke's telekinetic feats in Episode VI, I would just like to point out something. At every almost every moment in the Star Wars saga, from when Obi-Wan in Episode I is pulling a lightsaber to his hand to when Darth Vader is hurling boxes and other things at Luke in Episode V, the object being telekinetically moved always rumbles for a brief moment beforehand. I believe this is a sign that the character is concentrating on the object, beginning to get a grip on it through the Force. The only real exceptions to this would be when Sidious is hurling senate pods at Yoda, and all of the times Luke uses the Force in Episode VI. When Luke yanks a blaster from a man's holster in Jabba's palace? No rumble, just an instant of motion, followed by the blaster flying into his hand. When Luke lifts C-3PO in the Ewok village? Not only is there no rumble, and not only does it happen practically instantly, but there is absolutely no sign of strain or effort on Luke's face. It's as if the action is totally effortless for him. And when Luke takes his lightsaber from Palpatine's throne? Once again, we see no brief rumble. This seems to imply that Luke's telekinetic skills in Episode VI were on a level practically never before seen in the rest of the Star Wars saga. And of course, there are a few other feats from Luke in Episode VI, such as effortlessly choking two Gamorrean guards, performing the Jedi Mind Trick, and, whether you chose to believe it was legit or not, there was his so called "Force kick," which was basically a Force push channeled through his foot, while fighting over the Pit of Carkoon. Now, as for Luke's defenses in the Force, there hasn't exactly been much stated. However, it has been shown that he can defend himself against telekinetically hurled objects, in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. In that novel, Vader hurled a massive chunk of stone at Luke, and, on pure instinct, Luke countered by telekinetically launching a stone of his own to deflect the larger one. Now, this was when Luke was close to the Kaiburr crystal, and before Luke had any real training from Yoda. So, there is no reason to believe that Luke would be incapable of the same feat, or a much greater form of defense, by Episode VI.
Now, let's talk about Starkiller's immense Force power. And let me make this perfectly clear, I do believe that Starkiller's Force capability is immense. There's no denying that he has insane destructive potential. Since Starkiller is a clone of Galen Marek, I shall also include some of Marek's feats. First, let's look at his telekinesis. He has been shown defending himself from Vader's telekinetic assaults, easily plowing through waves of regular soldiers with intense Force waves and pushes, and unleashing monstrous lightning. He was even able to guide a falling Star Destroyer using the power of the Force! Though, the effort drained him to near-death. However, there is one serious issue to consider. Most of Starkiller's greatest offensive Force feats were against non-Force wielders. Other Force users were able to easily shrug off even his most intense telekinetic assaults (As shown when Galen Marek gave himself completely to the Force, causing a massive explosion that took his life. Even though Vader and Sidious were practically caught in the very center, there was absolutely no sign that they had been harmed in the slightest). To me, this seems to imply that while Marek, and consequently, Starkiller, had a great deal of power, it was mostly unfocused. Still lethal to anyone who can't use the Force, however, it was almost a trivial matter against other Force wielders. Sure, he could throw huge things around, and launch massive pushes, but it'd be like the difference between getting hit by a beanbag round versus a shotgun slug. Sure, they're both fired by similar means, and they both pack a ton of punch, but the beanbag (Starkiller's Force assaults) isn't really going to do much damage in the long run when compared to a more focused attack. Then we come to Starkiller's lightning against other Force users. Against an unprepared enemy, maybe one who is off guard or disarmed, this attack can be truly devastating. However, as shown by Darth Vader on more than one occasion, and every single boss in the video games, Starkiller's lightning can be easily blocked with a lightsaber. Of course, Starkiller does have a handful of other Force abilities, such as Tutaminis, however, these would be far too specialized to really do him much good in a duel against Luke.
Now, to determine who would have the edge, Force-wise. Luke seldom uses the Force for attack, using it almost entirely for the defensive. Meanwhile, Starkiller's Force feats are almost entirely offensive in comparison. So, Starkiller would not have to worry about defending himself from Luke, but, I do believe he would have an immensely difficult time getting past Luke's defenses with his unfocused assaults. For the sake of this battle, I will consider them equals. Starkiller may be more destructive, but I simply can't see that having as much of an impact in this battle.
Finally, let's take a close look at their combat tactics, and really look at how this fight would play out. We know from the movies that Luke prefers straight-up Lightsaber combat, only using the Force for defense, or to increase his speed, strength, and to let him jump great distances. Meanwhile, Starkiller tends to start with lightsaber combat as well, however, if he finds the opponent is superior to him, he will resort to Force-based attacks quickly to make up for his disadvantage. The way I see this going down, Starkiller would approach Luke, rather confident that he would be able to win this quickly, and Starkiller would be dumbfounded as Luke totally overwhelms him in lightsaber combat. Keep in mind, in the books, Starkiller could barely block the strength of Vader's strikes, and Luke overpowers Vader with pure strength. So, it is entirely possible that Luke would keep Starkiller purely on the defensive, not even so much as giving him an opening to counterattack (Just as Luke had done against Vader at the very start of their duel in Episode VI). He would push Starkiller back, leaving Starkiller little choice but to resort to Force abilities. Now here is where the fight gets tricky. We've never seen Luke defending himself against a purely telekinetic assault. However, I believe it would be entirely reasonable to assume that Yoda at least taught him how to put up a Force shield, as we never see Vader telekinetically pushing Luke. And at the very least, this information may have been in the journals that Luke found in Ben's hut. Regardless, I don't think Starkiller's Force pushes, waves, or repulses would have enough of a punch to give him the edge over the defense-oriented Luke. Failing that, he may resort to trying to telekinetically hurl objects at Luke. Luke, having been overwhelmed by this before in Episode V, surely would have trained to defend himself against a similar attack, especially since Splinter of the Mind's Eye states that he has successful defended himself against thrown objects in the past. And rather than hurl the items back at Starkiller, as many of Starkiller's opponents have been shown to do (Resulting in a bit of a back-and-forth, with the strongest Force user coming out on top), Luke would simply do just enough to deflect the objects away from him, rendering all of Starkiller's telekinetic attacks void. This leaves Starkiller one option, lightning, which we have already seen can be deflected by lightsaber. And keep in mind, during the whole time Starkiller would be trying to use his Force attacks, Luke would still be pressing his lightsaber offensive, so it's entirely likely that Starkiller wouldn't even get the chance to use much in the way of Force abilities during this battle.
In conclusion, I would have to say that Luke takes this. His lightsaber skills are just far too great, and Starkiller's Force attacks are far too unfocused, not packing much of a punch, and certainly not enough to defeat somebody with as much natural connection to the Force as Luke. Luke would continue pressing the offensive with his lightsaber, where he knows he would have an advantage, and would do everything he could to prevent Starkiller from even getting off a Force attack to begin with. Now, Starkiller might take a hell of a beating before he goes down, thanks to his ridiculous endurance, but the result is still the same. I declare Luke the victor. If I overlooked anything, please, let me know.

"Applauds."

That was awesome! It felt like something by Jensaarai1. Well done!

One suggestion though. In future, leave a line between each paragraph. That would make it much easier to read.

Originally posted by chilled monkey

That was awesome! It felt like something by Jensaarai1. Well done!

One suggestion though. In future, leave a line between each paragraph. That would make it much easier to read.

Why thank you! I actually tried to model my analysis after the same basic principals that Jensaarai1 uses for all of his videos. And also, I should thank you for that line idea. I'll be sure to do that from now on.

This is just going to be a rather brief update on the character's defenses, and whether or not they would have an affect on the outcome of my conclusion.

First, I'm going to address Starkiller's defenses. For anyone who has played the game or read the novels, it's fairly obvious that his defense against Force-based attacks is extremely hit-and-miss. As long as he sees a Force-based attack coming, he can defend himself against it. However, when caught off-guard, he is easily susceptible to telekinetic assaults. This seems to imply that Starkiller does not have a passive defense against the Force, which can prove to be a serious weakness, and easy to exploit.

Luke is a bit harder to examine in this regard. While there certainly are plenty of examples of him defending himself, most of them come from the EU long after RotJ. As far as I'm aware, the only two examples of him defending himself through the Force come from the novels Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the Return of the Jedi novelization. As I've already gone over the Splinter of the Mind's Eye in one of my previous posts, I shall instead focus on the example from Return of the Jedi. According to the official novelization, Luke tried to defend himself against Sidious' Force lightning, and met with initial success. Despite having never seen Force lightning before, he was able to briefly protect himself against the Emperor's immensely powerful attack. What he used to defend himself wasn't exactly Tutaminis, however. As the novel was a bit vague on how exactly he defended himself, I would come to the conclusion that he simply used the basic defense most Jedi are taught for defending themselves against Force attacks. To be able to briefly stop Force lightning from the Emperor with this relatively basic defense would have taken an immense amount of raw power, which is backed up with my analysis of Luke's telekinetic skills in an earlier post. And as Luke clearly would not have seen the lightning coming, this implies that his defenses were likely more passive than Starkillers.

Now, let's look at how these facts would affect the actual outcome. In short: Very little. Luke is not an offensive Force user by any means, so Starkiller's ability to defend himself against the Force is inconsequential. However, if Luke did decide to use an offensive Force technique, Starkiller may not be able to defend himself in time. Especially if Luke decided to choke him the way he choked the Gamorrean guards at the beginning of Episode VI. Such a simple gesture may go unnoticed by Starkiller in the heat of combat until it was too late. However, I still find Luke using the Force as a weapon against Starkiller extremely unlikely. Now, as for how Luke's defenses would come into play, I would have to say this only makes Luke more likely to win. With Luke's immense telekinetic skill, he would easily be able to defend against thrown objects, and he could definitely defend himself against lightning with his lightsaber, as it was shown other Force users had no trouble doing the same. And with Luke's passive basic defense, backed up by his immense raw power, this would cancel out the only real edge Starkiller had against Luke, the pushes and repulses. Especially considering how little of a punch each of Starkiller's telekinetic attacks packs (As pointed out before, even Starkiller's most powerful explosion of raw telekinetic energy, the attack that actually killed the original Starkiller, didn't even pack enough energy behind it to have the slightest affect on Vader or Sidious. Coupled with how little of a lasting affect his regular attacks have on any Force wielders, this seems to imply that Starkiller's attacks, while destructive, are still weak enough to mostly be canceled out by any passive defense).

In conclusion, thanks to evidence provided from the RotJ novelization, I think it's safe to say that Luke has the edge in every regard for this contest. I have no doubt that the duel would be intense, but I'm certain that Starkiller simply wouldn't be able to defeat Luke.